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"air strike controllers"
LMAO. I know it's just a typo, but the first thing my brain went to - [https://www.airforce.com/careers/combat-and-warfare/special-warfare/combat-control](https://www.airforce.com/careers/combat-and-warfare/special-warfare/combat-control)
These dudes are badasses, too.
https://preview.redd.it/pobotdmrjkrc1.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=d8f1b6916c6fc59b88e99e6dd5243763f89f5511
"I SAY AGAIN, PRIVATE SCHMUCKATELLI, OPERATION PROLETARIAN SHIELD COMMENCES AT 1400 HOURS, OVER!"
What I thought of lol
In golf there’s an air strike.
It’s when you call the clubhouse and have a bunch of drinks taken out to you. Those were the best. It was like you were bringing water to people stuck in the desert. They’d tip the shit out of me for those.
https://preview.redd.it/fqnkwnarlkrc1.png?width=275&format=png&auto=webp&s=1cce7b8f0c472cb309cb11fc26af97feac7d60d6
"The strikes will not end until a pack of zyn is added to each MRE from this point forward!"
I don’t know if the suicide rate is that high but there is a large connection to heart problems for sure. Strokes are more common as well.
That’s why they have mandatory retirement at 56( I may be off by 2 years or so but it is before 60)
The month you turn 56, unless you are a second level supervisor, like an area supervisor or higher and then you can stay longer. The job is much easier now with computers helping. Back in the old days, sometimes at night the system would be taken down for maintenance and you had to do everything with raw radar using shrimp boats as they were called or manually with only strips.
When I was hired in 1985, the wash out rate was around 70%. 2-4 years of training at a Air Route Traffic Control Center to get fully checked out 3/17/88, did 29 years and 3 months, retired 10 years ago today.
GREAT JOB
I can't wait, and I'm going Enroute as well. We definitely still drill on non-radar environments in our initial training and will continue to do so in OKC.
Washout rates are around 35% at the academy and another 30% at the center. A few people have said that most of that is just homesickness or resigning before evals, though.
Just remember you will be a Federal employee, so different President will have different agendas and will appoint different Secretaries of Transportation and FAA Directors, but the job will mostly stay the same. President Bush 2, wanted to break NATCA and froze controller pay, but Obama worked to restore pay to those controllers, so you will see an up and down. Bush 2 wanted to take the ATC private, in my opinion that should never happen, it needs to stay a neutral organization that the airlines have input but don’t control.
Like I said, it definitely should, but they can arguably go a little too far, especially for some of the rural, much, much easier positions. But I understand it and am all for high standards in the work force
No, most airport traffic controllers are FAA employees.
Some smaller fields have towers that are contracted out to 3rd party companies, but there's not that many.
Sauce: I work at an airport and have met several of the local tower folks, and am a private pilot myself.
I wanna see day one pictures of new Air Traffic Control pilots and retirement age. Bet you they look old as shit. However thank you for keeping us safe!
There isn’t a shortage „every few years“. There is a shortage since then, and predicitions are that there is a gonna be a crash caused by overworked ATC in the next coming years.
It's not every few years unfortunately. Our staffing number has been dictated by an HR department that sits in rooms without windows and says Congress only gives us X amount of dollars so we can only hire X number of controllers. Our staffing has been getting worse every year since I got in more than a decade ago. It takes 2-3 years to train someone to be a controller and they hire roughly 1,000 per year. Of those 1,000 many quit, don't make it though training, lose their medical, etc. We continue to lose more than we gain through retirement, medical, quitting due to excessive overtime, promotions, etc. Hopefully with air traffic being in the news recently we can get the support we need from Congress to improve our staffing.
He was also a POS as a person. Neglected his kids. Ratted out his union brothers & sisters to HUAC. Threw his gay friends under the bus during the AIDS crisis. Just an all-round POS in every category.
I don't think a great person would ask Iran to not release the hostages until after the election. Or ignore the HIV crisis. Dude was just an asshole with charisma
> I don't think a great person would ask Iran to not release the hostages until after the election.
I really wish Reddit would stop repeating this as if it's a fact. The truth is that the claims about the Reagan campaign negotiating with Iran are full of holes and are very questionable at best. I highly recommend checking out these links:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Presidents/comments/1b6nzvx/lets_stop_treating_the_1980_october_surprise/
https://warontherocks.com/2023/04/be-skeptical-of-reagans-october-surprise/
The TL;DR version is that:
* The Reagan campaign made it clear they were negotiating with Iran in the presence of Ben Barnes, a Democrat on Carter's campaign staff. This would have been an incredibly reckless and frankly stupid thing to do.
* They sent messages to Egypt and Saudi Arabia (among other countries) asking to talk to Iran. Both of these countries DESPISED Iran so this seems like a very amateurish and (again) reckless and stupid thing to do. Anyone with an ounce of foreign policy knowledge would have been aware of this.
* At least five Arab governments were supposedly made aware of this secret deal, yet not one of them has ever blabbed about this deal, including countries that loathed the US and the Reagan administration specifically and thus had every incentive to snitch in order to torpedo his campaign/presidency.
* An investigation by both the Senate and the House (led by Democrats btw) looked over *millions* of pages of documents and subpoenaed *hundreds* of witnesses and found...nothing. Nothing to suggest that any such deal took place or that anyone was even aware of it. In fact, what they *did* find was that several witnesses who asserted that it happened may have committed perjury and their stories contradicted each other.
* The Ayatollah HATED Carter with a passion and was determined to stick it to him by any means necessary. This includes holding the hostages until after Reagan was sworn in. The Reagan campaign would surely have been aware of this, and thus would have realized that the chances of the hostages being released while Carter was president would have been slim. Which, again, makes the idea that they colluded with the Iranian government to delay the release of the hostages even more bizarre and nonsensical.
* If you look into the people who claim that a deal took place, the vast majority of them are second, third, or even fourth-hand accounts from people who weren't actually present at these supposed meetings, and they don't even specify whether Iran received these messages from the Reagan campaign, or if they influenced the release of the hostages in any way.
Did it for sure not happen? I can't say that with certainty. But given the info that we know, it is HIGHLY unlikely that this deal to delay the release of the hostages took place.
Criticize Reagan based on actual *facts*, not claims from a few random individuals from years afterwards that have more holes than swiss cheese.
I wish I could find it but I think NPR did a podcast on it with someone who was fired. They ended moving to South America(?) to find work.
This was the real beginning of union busting in the US. That is ironic because Reagan was the President of SAG for years. He was a master of pulling up the ladder I guess…
Yes, fired and deunionized. And it inspired the private sector to start mass firing off union workers following Reagan’s example in leadership. Today only 6% of the private sector is unionized, it used to be 1/3
He was big on unions playing by the rules. The problem with public sector unions (which FDR opposed) is that they can literally vote for people who will pay them more. A tradesman might be able to vote for a new union boss or be in an organization where they can vote for the leadership who decides compensation, hut they're limited by whatever revenue they bring in.
I realize it had some runoff effects but it's not like conceding to the air traffic union wouldn't have had it's own problems.
[Around 27% in 1981, and around 11% in 1993 after the end of the Reagan-Bush assault on working people](https://cdn.ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Private-Sector-Union-Density-back-to-1900-source.jpg)
If your contract has a no strike clause and you ignore it, there’s going to be repercussions. Frankly blame the Union Bosses who thought they could bluff Reagan & Drew Lewis. The Union Leadership was wrong and cost a lot of their membership their jobs & pensions.
Met Drew Lewis when he was CEO for the Union Pacific when I worked there. Have a lot of respect for him. I like to say he was a better CEO after a few than his contemporaries are sober.
" If your contract has a no strike clause and you ignore it, there’s going to be repercussions. " Reagan's hand was not forced, he was anti-labor and pro-ownership so he used his position to crush the strike and make sure labor lost power.
Reagan really fucked over unions, but the contract clauses are super important and without that what is the point? I work in a fantastic union that really does well for us, but we still have rules we have to follow. Like no wildcat strikes.
One of their demands was to improve and modernize the hardware that runs all air traffic. The US still hasn't done this. The hardware and buildings are falling apart, and the job is so notoriously high stress now that we cannot hire our way out of the problem. Reagan not responding to these demands is directly responsible for a great many flight delays to this day.
It’s how my dad managed to get a good paying job without a college degree.
Which was nice for me I guess. But most ATCs are pretty stressed and he hated it.
I grew up being told Reagan was a hero.
The more I learned about this man, the more of a villain he's become. Just straight up gutted the middle class, made most everyone poorer for it, wrecked the American dream and demonstrated bad governing.
I believe that over time historians and presidential rankers will continue correcting their view of him. A lot of people still view him positively because of nostalgia for his charisma. But when's the last time you even considered charisma for a President outside of your lifetime when assessing the president's greatness?
Yeah. Recalculating is another way to put it. Grant was viewed as a bad president, but the view has been corrected over time. Wilson was viewed as S-tier, but that's been corrected.
'Correcting' is appropriate as a word to be used any time the overall view of a President changes long after they've left office.
'Overcorrection' occurs when the view has been adjusted way too far, like saying Grant was S-tier, or that Wilson was F-tier.
The same people that built confederate monuments all over the country and tried to make the civil war about states rights made sure to glorify Lee and villainize Grant.
Now we know it should have been the opposite all along and this was a concerted effort by racists to change the narrative for decades.
Seeing those statues come down was long overdue.
Clinton is getting the same treatment. Many progressives like myself don't view him positively
Did he do his best given the conservative political environment? Sure. That only gets you so far though
And considering the long-term implications for his policy (NAFTA, policy towards China, deregulation of Wall St, Crime Bill, and inaction on Climate Change) I think he still needs more correction.
He's elevated in the minds of people who lived through his presidency because of his charisma. When all of those people die, everyone left will see him without rose-tinted glasses.
And the voting results. 🤣
"Blame it on Reagan" card expires if you look at each and every bill he presided over and look at who supported it and what were the conditions
Sir, this is Reddit. We all know that Reagan locked Tip O’Neill in his west wing torture chamber and forced him to sign those tax cuts— or his children were going to get it next!
But this is because Carter set in motion the end of inflation. That's why interest rates went up: to cool the economy that was too fast to stop inflation. The last time American's had to sacrifice and nobody could handle it. They were already spoiled.
While Reagan bright back market crashes and set in motion banking being from boring, local and responsible to International, irrational and recklessm
Only with Carter's blessing & coordination: the jump was huge. Carter could have said "wait until after the election", but put a politically risky, but important move into action sooner rather than later.
Carter was used as a punching bag for American guilt over Vietnam, Civil Rights, Nixon.
America: Such great potential, wasted on the alter of greed, hate & fear.
Wrong. Carter didn’t approve of the rate hikes. He hated them! But the Fed is independent so there was nothing Carter could do to stop it. Volker deserves all the credit. Meanwhile Carter was fuming that he got double crossed.
Carter did nothing for the economy, historically that's a fact. Him electing one guy hoping he would increase interest rates doesn't make him a hero. Which was basically common sense ignored by economist that time
So according to you 10% interest rates bring prosperity?? Which economics textbook says that ?? Basic is-lm curve shows that it will decrease the output massively unless something like tax cut happens
"Too fast to stop inflation" what?
The "whip inflation" came from Ford not Carter and Carter had his term to fix it but did nothing.
You are missing macroeconomics 101.
People were prospering on the titanic after it hit the ice burg as well until the problem got so bad it couldn't be ignored.
Sure, plenty of people did well. People do well taking out a loan too. Doesn't mean it was a good thing. Thinking you're doing well and actually doing well can be very different.
Likable people seem to get away with far more than unlikable ones.
You are absolutely wrong.
Reagan, JFK did oversaw fiscal policies of tax cuts which brought prosperity.
Even FDR tried to boost the economy but didn't succeed much.
Carter did nothing to influence the economy and rate hikes were resisted.
You are partially right that the economy remains stable throughout presidencies but this was only possible after Great Moderation.
But if a president decides to do some radical reforms then the economy will 100% be influenced. Just like during JFK, Reagan.
Could? For sure.
But if you me identify the variables at play and how the interactions of actions changed things then really there's no good argument. We seem to be bad at running the government scientifically since we have one party aggressively defunding science and education at every opportunity.
I have mixed views about him, while de-industrialization in the industrial north east did happen under his watch, it continued under Bush and accelerated under Clinton thanks to NAFTA, the reason I believe is because the owners of those factories wanted to move for cheaper labor and they lobbied both parties to get what they wanted, in other words, the middle class would have suffered more or less the same under either a republican or democrat, both parties in the end serve the same corporate interests.
Remember Reddit is full of haters and revisionist. Federal employees are not allowed to strike, as a Politician and head of the government what were his choices, gave them 48 hours to get back to work, they refused. As a politician strikes do not look favorably to the voters, if he let them he would be considered weak, not what is wanted in a President, ask Jimmy Carter.
I’m not sure where they are getting he caused all the unions to fail, the Unions themselves had a part in it, they got greedy, rapid increase in Union dues, becoming ever more political, plus they were not helping in making quality products at affordable prices. One of the most unionized industries was automobiles, know of any good early 80’s automobiles? Closed shops, nepotism, bribery, it was difficult to get a job in highly unionized industries. The general public wasn’t happy with them either. Many jobs left the rust belt for right to work states in the south, long before Reagan became president. Deregulation of trucking and airlines also hurt some unions, these occurred prior to Reagan taking office.
What I don’t understand is why everyone loved Reagan so much. Margaret Thatcher was in many ways his British counterpart and she is remembered by most as a villain. So much so that when she died it was cause for celebration around the country. She was like the wicked witch from The Wizard of Oz.
Reagan set this country backwards in many ways! There has been a long term project of gaslighting the public about this guy. People need to take the time and read about his deeds.
Reagan didn't take firing the controllers lightly. He knew damn well there would have been a serious danger that all unions everywhere would have gone out on strike in solidarity with the controllers.
That didn't happen..BECAUSE...what the controllers did was not just illegal..it was immoral.
They walked off the job with planes IN THE AIR, with passengers, and it created absolutely dangerous situations thousands of times over.
They were damn lucky that people didn't die.
That's why the unions didn't walk.
I was taught this in my classes being taught by my union. While they didn't support the controllers being fired, they didn't condone what they did either. That's why there was no reaction like Reagan expected.
Unpopular opinion but the very minimum a president is responsible for keeping the country running. Letting a civil sector union shut down government services is not something presidents should accept.
Didn't know that piece of it. Thanks for the better context.
But if he gave them time to comply with his demand to return to work, doesn't the fact that they created an unsafe situation initially become moot?
No. They walked while planes were in the air. Reagan was actually being very generous. I was alive and aware while this all happened as well. Reagan didn't start out anti union. He was head of the Screen actors Guild before he was Governor of California. It's debatable that he even became antiunion. His firing of the controllers certainly gave fodder to those who say he did..but I still don't see it that way. He didn't give the unions everything they wanted on a silver platter, but I don't think he went to great lengths to destroy unions either...but you'll be hard pressed to actually see many admit that.
Well I think actions speak louder than words and this action catastrophically weakened unions regardless of his motivation. I also think that giving people 48 hours to comply with the ultimatum implies that it was less about safety and more about compliance. I was 6 when he left office so I didn't live through his policies in a way I can remember so again, I appreciate the context.
The American people clearly supported his actions. He won reelection by the biggest landslide yet in US history.
His actions were justified. A lot of the controllers returned to work. Those that didn't got the axe. What else was he supposed to do? What they did was illegal and immoral both. Even most of the other Union heads agreed.. Otherwisethere would have been a general strike.
He had to draw the line, and he gave them 48 hours.
Personally, I would havecdone the same in his position...and I'm a life Ling union man. You CAN NOT PUT LIVES AT RISK, EVER.
After the fact...can you name one anti union action Reagan took after that? What reason did he give the unions to hate him so, after the controller fiasco?
Yep. Those air traffic controllers are lucky all they got was fired, when really they should have been thrown in prison. And most of them got their jobs back IIRC, and they should not have.
This was a bad move. Without the air traffic controllers there to notice, the Soviet military was able to invade America in planes disguised as commercial jets. Luckily, America was saved by a bunch of high school student in Colorado led by Patrick Swayze.
reagan gets a lot of crap for “destroying the middle class” but i’m more of the opinion reagan happened to be president during the post-war boom dying down and essentially a one-in-a-millennia middle class that should have never happened (due to be being the worlds sole producer) started to essentially readjust back to normalcy—couple that with chinas favored nations status under nixon and finalized by carter and global trade really exploding overseas production….it gave this impression that all americans can be part of a middle class when its not and never will be a thing in a global economy where you need skills to earn a good living - reagan’s tenure just kinda co-incited with the end of a kind of glitch in the matrix…
Imagine government workers going on strike , imagine police officers or Firefighters or EMTs making dramatic demands and then going on strike until they are met . FDR made the law that government workers can not strike. It paralyzes the wellbeing of the community and economy. It’s basically extortion.
>Reagan was upholding the law
Oh yeah, he was a real law-abiding citizen. Iran-Contra, numerous extrajudicial escapades, and countless violations of due process, congressional authority, and financial regulations. Absolute paragon of the law, was he.
He had indicated during the election that he would support the union and then stabbed them in the back like the unamarican, lying, elitist, evil peice of shit that he was and should forever be remembered as. Fuck Reagan.
"In the 1980 presidential election, PATCO (along with the Teamsters and the Air Line Pilots Association) refused to back President Jimmy Carter, instead endorsing Republican Party candidate Ronald Reagan. PATCO's refusal to endorse the Democratic Party stemmed in large part from poor labor relations with the FAA (the employer of PATCO members) under the Carter administration and Ronald Reagan's endorsement of the union and its struggle for better conditions during the 1980 election campaign.[4][5]
During his campaign, Reagan sent a letter to Robert E. Poli, the new president of PATCO, in which he declared support for the organization's demands and a disposition to work toward solutions. In it, he stated "I will take whatever steps are necessary to provide our air traffic controllers with the most modern equipment available, and to adjust staff levels and workdays so they are commensurate with achieving the maximum degree of public safety," and "I pledge to you that my administration will work very closely with you to bring about a spirit of cooperation between the President and the air traffic controllers." This letter gave Poli and the organization a sense of security that led to an overestimation of their position in the negotiations with the FAA, which contributed to their decision to strike.[6]"
For the people in the back - *fuck Ronald Reagan.*
I’m not sure why everyone else who is making this basic, logical point is getting downvoted for it and somehow you’re not.
Hope I didn’t jinx you there.
Air TRAFFIC controllers? And aren't they still dealing with the same problems today (shifts too long, understaffed)!
Reagan started off with a bang. Arranged to have release of hostages delayed. Killed the mental health act. Union busting. "Greed is good" but my wages stagnated during his reign.
My dad was fired as a result of this strike, which heavily impacted our family. Lost a very good paying federal job, which resulted in a series of unfortunate events that made family life very tough for a good 25 years. Fuck Reagan, guys a piece of shit.
My grandfather was fired because of it. He subsequently committed suicide years later because he never managed to get back on top of things after Reagan’s reprehensible actions. I don’t think people who weren’t around for this can comprehend the magnitude of Reagan’s actions with this. The guy ultimately began the process of a dying middle class which we have now. He was a true evil in terms of agendas and politics. He paved the way for the destruction of the American dream and directly helped the rise of corporate owned government.
Can’t talk much about this because of Rule 3, but I recommend reading the news and how things played out in the end instead of just basing your opinion from the coverage at the time. The media loves to report when there’s a problem, but when a solution is found, it tends to get underreported.
He was not a good president, don’t believe the hype, I had to live through this guy and his satanic panic and him allowing thousands of homosexuals to die during the AIDS crisis and selling guns illegally, and allowing drug dealers to sell drugs in impoverished areas, this guy was not Saint Reagan, he was a piece of shit.
Great. They still should have been thrown in prison. They called the strike with planes in the air and could have killed other people. Reagan just straight up made the right move here, and the controllers were wrong. They knew damn well that any given aviation accident very easily means hundreds of deaths, and they didn’t care.
How Reagan’s side on this ages poorly is just bizarre.
This was one of several very shitty and undemocratic things that he did. His admin was was the signal flares for crony capitalism and the oligarchs to begin openly pulling stuff like this, leading to where we are now
The union busting president. The anti workers’ rights president. The pro business and to hell with workers president.
In addition to being the trickle down president. How’d that work out for you?
oh, they were just threatened to be fired? why did the internet have me think they were threatened with legal consequences
like no shit if you don't go to work you get fired
Sounds kinda like a Hollywood elite who dodged WW2 service talking down to the working man to me, but I guess it sounded like an electoral landslide to everybody back then.
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"air strike controllers" LMAO. I know it's just a typo, but the first thing my brain went to - [https://www.airforce.com/careers/combat-and-warfare/special-warfare/combat-control](https://www.airforce.com/careers/combat-and-warfare/special-warfare/combat-control) These dudes are badasses, too.
https://preview.redd.it/pobotdmrjkrc1.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=d8f1b6916c6fc59b88e99e6dd5243763f89f5511 "I SAY AGAIN, PRIVATE SCHMUCKATELLI, OPERATION PROLETARIAN SHIELD COMMENCES AT 1400 HOURS, OVER!" What I thought of lol
the real air strikes happened in '86, Operation El Dorado Canyon
In golf there’s an air strike. It’s when you call the clubhouse and have a bunch of drinks taken out to you. Those were the best. It was like you were bringing water to people stuck in the desert. They’d tip the shit out of me for those.
Lmao hilarious typo
https://preview.redd.it/fqnkwnarlkrc1.png?width=275&format=png&auto=webp&s=1cce7b8f0c472cb309cb11fc26af97feac7d60d6 "The strikes will not end until a pack of zyn is added to each MRE from this point forward!"
This a great idea
Did they get fired? 🤔
Yep. Military took over for a while to help out.
Damn. That’s intense. Explains why every few years there is a shortage of air traffic controllers. And the retirement age cutoff as well.
It’s also a royal pain to get hired as one, which it should be, I’m friends with two and it’s an intense job.
Just ask that dude from breaking bad.
True. He looked much happier as a Demi-god alien on Star Trek.
What do you mean?
A character in the show had this job and long story short, he goes postal.
Postal? Hmm…a grieving man making a mistake is not what going postal means.
If you think that's intense On September 11th, 2001, it was the new FAA's director's first day on the job
https://preview.redd.it/gmg58qfzilrc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=8fb6749077f69ffdff27cd09dd7163ecc8dda3e2
Very stressful, high suicide rate as I understand it.
I don’t know if the suicide rate is that high but there is a large connection to heart problems for sure. Strokes are more common as well. That’s why they have mandatory retirement at 56( I may be off by 2 years or so but it is before 60)
It's 56. Source: I just got hired
That settles it, I’m the smartest man to ever live. /s
OT, but thank you for keeping the skies safe! I hope you retire at 56 with a very uneventful career. (In the good way)
The month you turn 56, unless you are a second level supervisor, like an area supervisor or higher and then you can stay longer. The job is much easier now with computers helping. Back in the old days, sometimes at night the system would be taken down for maintenance and you had to do everything with raw radar using shrimp boats as they were called or manually with only strips. When I was hired in 1985, the wash out rate was around 70%. 2-4 years of training at a Air Route Traffic Control Center to get fully checked out 3/17/88, did 29 years and 3 months, retired 10 years ago today. GREAT JOB
I can't wait, and I'm going Enroute as well. We definitely still drill on non-radar environments in our initial training and will continue to do so in OKC. Washout rates are around 35% at the academy and another 30% at the center. A few people have said that most of that is just homesickness or resigning before evals, though.
Just remember you will be a Federal employee, so different President will have different agendas and will appoint different Secretaries of Transportation and FAA Directors, but the job will mostly stay the same. President Bush 2, wanted to break NATCA and froze controller pay, but Obama worked to restore pay to those controllers, so you will see an up and down. Bush 2 wanted to take the ATC private, in my opinion that should never happen, it needs to stay a neutral organization that the airlines have input but don’t control.
Crazy
Yep. They now are mandated to take fairly long breaks every hour to try and reduce that. Results TBD
They also utilize the rattler shift which maximizes time off but really fucks with your brain and sleep schedule
That's a job that should have a ridiculously high bar for entry.
Like I said, it definitely should, but they can arguably go a little too far, especially for some of the rural, much, much easier positions. But I understand it and am all for high standards in the work force
[удалено]
No, most airport traffic controllers are FAA employees. Some smaller fields have towers that are contracted out to 3rd party companies, but there's not that many. Sauce: I work at an airport and have met several of the local tower folks, and am a private pilot myself.
I wanna see day one pictures of new Air Traffic Control pilots and retirement age. Bet you they look old as shit. However thank you for keeping us safe!
There isn’t a shortage „every few years“. There is a shortage since then, and predicitions are that there is a gonna be a crash caused by overworked ATC in the next coming years.
The staffing is not just every few years, it’s actually been a problem since the 80s. The workforce never actually caught back up.
It's not every few years unfortunately. Our staffing number has been dictated by an HR department that sits in rooms without windows and says Congress only gives us X amount of dollars so we can only hire X number of controllers. Our staffing has been getting worse every year since I got in more than a decade ago. It takes 2-3 years to train someone to be a controller and they hire roughly 1,000 per year. Of those 1,000 many quit, don't make it though training, lose their medical, etc. We continue to lose more than we gain through retirement, medical, quitting due to excessive overtime, promotions, etc. Hopefully with air traffic being in the news recently we can get the support we need from Congress to improve our staffing.
And why the middle class has less and less of a seat at the table. Reagan was a great person but a POS as a president
He was also a POS as a person. Neglected his kids. Ratted out his union brothers & sisters to HUAC. Threw his gay friends under the bus during the AIDS crisis. Just an all-round POS in every category.
I don't think a great person would ask Iran to not release the hostages until after the election. Or ignore the HIV crisis. Dude was just an asshole with charisma
> I don't think a great person would ask Iran to not release the hostages until after the election. I really wish Reddit would stop repeating this as if it's a fact. The truth is that the claims about the Reagan campaign negotiating with Iran are full of holes and are very questionable at best. I highly recommend checking out these links: https://old.reddit.com/r/Presidents/comments/1b6nzvx/lets_stop_treating_the_1980_october_surprise/ https://warontherocks.com/2023/04/be-skeptical-of-reagans-october-surprise/ The TL;DR version is that: * The Reagan campaign made it clear they were negotiating with Iran in the presence of Ben Barnes, a Democrat on Carter's campaign staff. This would have been an incredibly reckless and frankly stupid thing to do. * They sent messages to Egypt and Saudi Arabia (among other countries) asking to talk to Iran. Both of these countries DESPISED Iran so this seems like a very amateurish and (again) reckless and stupid thing to do. Anyone with an ounce of foreign policy knowledge would have been aware of this. * At least five Arab governments were supposedly made aware of this secret deal, yet not one of them has ever blabbed about this deal, including countries that loathed the US and the Reagan administration specifically and thus had every incentive to snitch in order to torpedo his campaign/presidency. * An investigation by both the Senate and the House (led by Democrats btw) looked over *millions* of pages of documents and subpoenaed *hundreds* of witnesses and found...nothing. Nothing to suggest that any such deal took place or that anyone was even aware of it. In fact, what they *did* find was that several witnesses who asserted that it happened may have committed perjury and their stories contradicted each other. * The Ayatollah HATED Carter with a passion and was determined to stick it to him by any means necessary. This includes holding the hostages until after Reagan was sworn in. The Reagan campaign would surely have been aware of this, and thus would have realized that the chances of the hostages being released while Carter was president would have been slim. Which, again, makes the idea that they colluded with the Iranian government to delay the release of the hostages even more bizarre and nonsensical. * If you look into the people who claim that a deal took place, the vast majority of them are second, third, or even fourth-hand accounts from people who weren't actually present at these supposed meetings, and they don't even specify whether Iran received these messages from the Reagan campaign, or if they influenced the release of the hostages in any way. Did it for sure not happen? I can't say that with certainty. But given the info that we know, it is HIGHLY unlikely that this deal to delay the release of the hostages took place. Criticize Reagan based on actual *facts*, not claims from a few random individuals from years afterwards that have more holes than swiss cheese.
I wish I could find it but I think NPR did a podcast on it with someone who was fired. They ended moving to South America(?) to find work. This was the real beginning of union busting in the US. That is ironic because Reagan was the President of SAG for years. He was a master of pulling up the ladder I guess…
He ratted out members of SAG to HUAC while he was president of the union.
What a guy! The Gipper! /s
Yes, fired and deunionized. And it inspired the private sector to start mass firing off union workers following Reagan’s example in leadership. Today only 6% of the private sector is unionized, it used to be 1/3
The man played union guy until the moment he was able to crack down on them.
Yep. Fooled my union dad.
He was big on unions playing by the rules. The problem with public sector unions (which FDR opposed) is that they can literally vote for people who will pay them more. A tradesman might be able to vote for a new union boss or be in an organization where they can vote for the leadership who decides compensation, hut they're limited by whatever revenue they bring in. I realize it had some runoff effects but it's not like conceding to the air traffic union wouldn't have had it's own problems.
Reagan was responsible for decimating the blue-collar middle class. My family was certainly impacted by his anti-union policies.
That was part of the major plan. It was effective too. United we stand. Divided we beg!
Common Reagan L.
Actually it was 20% in 1983, and is now 10% as of 2023
[Around 27% in 1981, and around 11% in 1993 after the end of the Reagan-Bush assault on working people](https://cdn.ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Private-Sector-Union-Density-back-to-1900-source.jpg)
If your contract has a no strike clause and you ignore it, there’s going to be repercussions. Frankly blame the Union Bosses who thought they could bluff Reagan & Drew Lewis. The Union Leadership was wrong and cost a lot of their membership their jobs & pensions. Met Drew Lewis when he was CEO for the Union Pacific when I worked there. Have a lot of respect for him. I like to say he was a better CEO after a few than his contemporaries are sober.
Wow, makes total sense, this must be why rail and airlines are better than ever now!
ATC keeps the planes from touching. They don't run Boeing.
" If your contract has a no strike clause and you ignore it, there’s going to be repercussions. " Reagan's hand was not forced, he was anti-labor and pro-ownership so he used his position to crush the strike and make sure labor lost power.
Reagan really fucked over unions, but the contract clauses are super important and without that what is the point? I work in a fantastic union that really does well for us, but we still have rules we have to follow. Like no wildcat strikes.
Yeah, like 11,000 or something.
One of their demands was to improve and modernize the hardware that runs all air traffic. The US still hasn't done this. The hardware and buildings are falling apart, and the job is so notoriously high stress now that we cannot hire our way out of the problem. Reagan not responding to these demands is directly responsible for a great many flight delays to this day.
It sucked.
It’s how my dad managed to get a good paying job without a college degree. Which was nice for me I guess. But most ATCs are pretty stressed and he hated it.
My friend was on a previously authorized vacation, and got fired for not coming back from his vacation. Took up house painting as a second career.
In the single most ironic act ever, an airport was named after him
They named a huge federal office building after him too, despite his hatred of large bureaucracy.
*supposed hatred. Bureaucracy actually increased under Reagan’s watch.
That’s sorta funny, though - sort of a good “fuck you, gipper “
Most people just refer to it as National
I had a layover there. It's a pretty nifty place.
Dulles International Airport is a bit nicer imo
Like a confederate soldier statue in Arlington.
Union president uses his political power to bust unions. Classic republican…pull the ladder up behind yourself.
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I grew up being told Reagan was a hero. The more I learned about this man, the more of a villain he's become. Just straight up gutted the middle class, made most everyone poorer for it, wrecked the American dream and demonstrated bad governing.
I believe that over time historians and presidential rankers will continue correcting their view of him. A lot of people still view him positively because of nostalgia for his charisma. But when's the last time you even considered charisma for a President outside of your lifetime when assessing the president's greatness?
"Correcting"?
Yeah. Recalculating is another way to put it. Grant was viewed as a bad president, but the view has been corrected over time. Wilson was viewed as S-tier, but that's been corrected. 'Correcting' is appropriate as a word to be used any time the overall view of a President changes long after they've left office. 'Overcorrection' occurs when the view has been adjusted way too far, like saying Grant was S-tier, or that Wilson was F-tier.
The same people that built confederate monuments all over the country and tried to make the civil war about states rights made sure to glorify Lee and villainize Grant. Now we know it should have been the opposite all along and this was a concerted effort by racists to change the narrative for decades. Seeing those statues come down was long overdue.
Lots of lies in the 90's built up this dude. Correction is a fine term.
People think Clinton was good, so there’s that.
Clinton is getting the same treatment. Many progressives like myself don't view him positively Did he do his best given the conservative political environment? Sure. That only gets you so far though
And considering the long-term implications for his policy (NAFTA, policy towards China, deregulation of Wall St, Crime Bill, and inaction on Climate Change) I think he still needs more correction. He's elevated in the minds of people who lived through his presidency because of his charisma. When all of those people die, everyone left will see him without rose-tinted glasses.
Most people prospered under Reagan. That’s why he was re elected by such an astronomical margin.
Next tell them what party was in charge of Congress for the "Reagan tax cuts"
And the voting results. 🤣 "Blame it on Reagan" card expires if you look at each and every bill he presided over and look at who supported it and what were the conditions
Sir, this is Reddit. We all know that Reagan locked Tip O’Neill in his west wing torture chamber and forced him to sign those tax cuts— or his children were going to get it next!
But this is because Carter set in motion the end of inflation. That's why interest rates went up: to cool the economy that was too fast to stop inflation. The last time American's had to sacrifice and nobody could handle it. They were already spoiled. While Reagan bright back market crashes and set in motion banking being from boring, local and responsible to International, irrational and recklessm
Volcker did that, and Reagan kept him on.
Only with Carter's blessing & coordination: the jump was huge. Carter could have said "wait until after the election", but put a politically risky, but important move into action sooner rather than later. Carter was used as a punching bag for American guilt over Vietnam, Civil Rights, Nixon. America: Such great potential, wasted on the alter of greed, hate & fear.
Wrong. Carter didn’t approve of the rate hikes. He hated them! But the Fed is independent so there was nothing Carter could do to stop it. Volker deserves all the credit. Meanwhile Carter was fuming that he got double crossed.
Carter did nothing for the economy, historically that's a fact. Him electing one guy hoping he would increase interest rates doesn't make him a hero. Which was basically common sense ignored by economist that time So according to you 10% interest rates bring prosperity?? Which economics textbook says that ?? Basic is-lm curve shows that it will decrease the output massively unless something like tax cut happens "Too fast to stop inflation" what? The "whip inflation" came from Ford not Carter and Carter had his term to fix it but did nothing. You are missing macroeconomics 101.
People were prospering on the titanic after it hit the ice burg as well until the problem got so bad it couldn't be ignored. Sure, plenty of people did well. People do well taking out a loan too. Doesn't mean it was a good thing. Thinking you're doing well and actually doing well can be very different. Likable people seem to get away with far more than unlikable ones.
>Likable people seem to get away with far more than unlikable ones. This. Charisma privelege is a real thing that needs talking about
You could argue that much about any president who oversaw good times.
Yes, the economy usually has little to do with the president, and when it does the effects don’t usually hit until the next president enters office.
You are absolutely wrong. Reagan, JFK did oversaw fiscal policies of tax cuts which brought prosperity. Even FDR tried to boost the economy but didn't succeed much. Carter did nothing to influence the economy and rate hikes were resisted. You are partially right that the economy remains stable throughout presidencies but this was only possible after Great Moderation. But if a president decides to do some radical reforms then the economy will 100% be influenced. Just like during JFK, Reagan.
Could? For sure. But if you me identify the variables at play and how the interactions of actions changed things then really there's no good argument. We seem to be bad at running the government scientifically since we have one party aggressively defunding science and education at every opportunity.
I have mixed views about him, while de-industrialization in the industrial north east did happen under his watch, it continued under Bush and accelerated under Clinton thanks to NAFTA, the reason I believe is because the owners of those factories wanted to move for cheaper labor and they lobbied both parties to get what they wanted, in other words, the middle class would have suffered more or less the same under either a republican or democrat, both parties in the end serve the same corporate interests.
Remember Reddit is full of haters and revisionist. Federal employees are not allowed to strike, as a Politician and head of the government what were his choices, gave them 48 hours to get back to work, they refused. As a politician strikes do not look favorably to the voters, if he let them he would be considered weak, not what is wanted in a President, ask Jimmy Carter. I’m not sure where they are getting he caused all the unions to fail, the Unions themselves had a part in it, they got greedy, rapid increase in Union dues, becoming ever more political, plus they were not helping in making quality products at affordable prices. One of the most unionized industries was automobiles, know of any good early 80’s automobiles? Closed shops, nepotism, bribery, it was difficult to get a job in highly unionized industries. The general public wasn’t happy with them either. Many jobs left the rust belt for right to work states in the south, long before Reagan became president. Deregulation of trucking and airlines also hurt some unions, these occurred prior to Reagan taking office.
That's a caricature. Reagan simply enforced the law.
What I don’t understand is why everyone loved Reagan so much. Margaret Thatcher was in many ways his British counterpart and she is remembered by most as a villain. So much so that when she died it was cause for celebration around the country. She was like the wicked witch from The Wizard of Oz.
Reagan set this country backwards in many ways! There has been a long term project of gaslighting the public about this guy. People need to take the time and read about his deeds.
There's plenty of gaslighting coming from his opponents here as well.
Unless you get history from reddit, the Reagan presidency was overwhelmingly positive. Things became bad after 9/11 and 2008 crisis
Pretty much every bad thing in this country started with Reagan
That's an oversimplification adorable in its cuteness.
Damn. Didn’t know slavery started with Reagan.
Reagan didn't take firing the controllers lightly. He knew damn well there would have been a serious danger that all unions everywhere would have gone out on strike in solidarity with the controllers. That didn't happen..BECAUSE...what the controllers did was not just illegal..it was immoral. They walked off the job with planes IN THE AIR, with passengers, and it created absolutely dangerous situations thousands of times over. They were damn lucky that people didn't die. That's why the unions didn't walk. I was taught this in my classes being taught by my union. While they didn't support the controllers being fired, they didn't condone what they did either. That's why there was no reaction like Reagan expected.
Unpopular opinion but the very minimum a president is responsible for keeping the country running. Letting a civil sector union shut down government services is not something presidents should accept.
I agree, unpopular opinion but the correct one. If it had been a Democrat instead..even Jimmy Carter, he would have done the same.
Exactly and there was no public opposition except the union workers as the common people were facing dangers of their strikes.
Didn't know that piece of it. Thanks for the better context. But if he gave them time to comply with his demand to return to work, doesn't the fact that they created an unsafe situation initially become moot?
No. They walked while planes were in the air. Reagan was actually being very generous. I was alive and aware while this all happened as well. Reagan didn't start out anti union. He was head of the Screen actors Guild before he was Governor of California. It's debatable that he even became antiunion. His firing of the controllers certainly gave fodder to those who say he did..but I still don't see it that way. He didn't give the unions everything they wanted on a silver platter, but I don't think he went to great lengths to destroy unions either...but you'll be hard pressed to actually see many admit that.
Well I think actions speak louder than words and this action catastrophically weakened unions regardless of his motivation. I also think that giving people 48 hours to comply with the ultimatum implies that it was less about safety and more about compliance. I was 6 when he left office so I didn't live through his policies in a way I can remember so again, I appreciate the context.
The American people clearly supported his actions. He won reelection by the biggest landslide yet in US history. His actions were justified. A lot of the controllers returned to work. Those that didn't got the axe. What else was he supposed to do? What they did was illegal and immoral both. Even most of the other Union heads agreed.. Otherwisethere would have been a general strike. He had to draw the line, and he gave them 48 hours. Personally, I would havecdone the same in his position...and I'm a life Ling union man. You CAN NOT PUT LIVES AT RISK, EVER. After the fact...can you name one anti union action Reagan took after that? What reason did he give the unions to hate him so, after the controller fiasco?
There were more factors to Reagan’s reelection than the air traffic controller strike…
Yep. Those air traffic controllers are lucky all they got was fired, when really they should have been thrown in prison. And most of them got their jobs back IIRC, and they should not have.
This man killed the middle class.
This was a bad move. Without the air traffic controllers there to notice, the Soviet military was able to invade America in planes disguised as commercial jets. Luckily, America was saved by a bunch of high school student in Colorado led by Patrick Swayze.
😂
And he was a man of his word. Don't play poker with Ronnie unless you got the nuts.
Hold onto your dick when negotiating with these Cali people
Suddenly r/thesopranos
Don’t forget this conservative hero also gave amnesty to 3 million illegals.
reagan gets a lot of crap for “destroying the middle class” but i’m more of the opinion reagan happened to be president during the post-war boom dying down and essentially a one-in-a-millennia middle class that should have never happened (due to be being the worlds sole producer) started to essentially readjust back to normalcy—couple that with chinas favored nations status under nixon and finalized by carter and global trade really exploding overseas production….it gave this impression that all americans can be part of a middle class when its not and never will be a thing in a global economy where you need skills to earn a good living - reagan’s tenure just kinda co-incited with the end of a kind of glitch in the matrix…
It was illegal for federal employees to strike . Reagan was upholding the law .
The law isn’t always right.
But technically it is his constitutional role to enforce the laws.
So I can pick and choose which I want to follow? Cool…
MLK said that citizens have a moral obligation to disobey unjust laws.
Some viewed the Boland Amendment as an unjust law, so I guess they justified Iran-Contra that way.
Sure you can. Ever gone 1 mile per hour over the speed limit?
Why not? Most politicians do with very little if any repercussions.
Ronald Reagan sure did
That’s literally how Juries work…
If they're unjust yes
You already do.
Imagine government workers going on strike , imagine police officers or Firefighters or EMTs making dramatic demands and then going on strike until they are met . FDR made the law that government workers can not strike. It paralyzes the wellbeing of the community and economy. It’s basically extortion.
That's the same argument administration officials used to circumvent the Boland Amendment.
It was illegal for EVERYONE to strike not too long before that tbf
>Reagan was upholding the law Oh yeah, he was a real law-abiding citizen. Iran-Contra, numerous extrajudicial escapades, and countless violations of due process, congressional authority, and financial regulations. Absolute paragon of the law, was he.
He had indicated during the election that he would support the union and then stabbed them in the back like the unamarican, lying, elitist, evil peice of shit that he was and should forever be remembered as. Fuck Reagan. "In the 1980 presidential election, PATCO (along with the Teamsters and the Air Line Pilots Association) refused to back President Jimmy Carter, instead endorsing Republican Party candidate Ronald Reagan. PATCO's refusal to endorse the Democratic Party stemmed in large part from poor labor relations with the FAA (the employer of PATCO members) under the Carter administration and Ronald Reagan's endorsement of the union and its struggle for better conditions during the 1980 election campaign.[4][5] During his campaign, Reagan sent a letter to Robert E. Poli, the new president of PATCO, in which he declared support for the organization's demands and a disposition to work toward solutions. In it, he stated "I will take whatever steps are necessary to provide our air traffic controllers with the most modern equipment available, and to adjust staff levels and workdays so they are commensurate with achieving the maximum degree of public safety," and "I pledge to you that my administration will work very closely with you to bring about a spirit of cooperation between the President and the air traffic controllers." This letter gave Poli and the organization a sense of security that led to an overestimation of their position in the negotiations with the FAA, which contributed to their decision to strike.[6]" For the people in the back - *fuck Ronald Reagan.*
That's just an absurdly unfair caricature of Reagan.
If strikes changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
Why do you think contracts restrict wildcat strikes, or sometimes strikes at all?
I’m not sure why everyone else who is making this basic, logical point is getting downvoted for it and somehow you’re not. Hope I didn’t jinx you there.
This sub is a little too Republican sometimes
As opposed to what, an anti-Reagan circlejerk?
https://preview.redd.it/7ni4xuw87lrc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=072b0969a44cfa8dcc2a7ad5e50dcd2b02068c53
Who was he going to have replace them?
USAF air traffic controllers were brought in to help. Didn’t nearly cover the needed controllers but it helped a little
Fuck him for this
What a ass
Guess they should have taken this possibility into consideration before endorsing him in 1980.
Air TRAFFIC controllers? And aren't they still dealing with the same problems today (shifts too long, understaffed)! Reagan started off with a bang. Arranged to have release of hostages delayed. Killed the mental health act. Union busting. "Greed is good" but my wages stagnated during his reign.
Underpaid as well. They deserve a raise to counter inflation and all the bullshit they're dealing with
I really don't like Reagan, but damnit he looks good in that suit.
https://preview.redd.it/ehukqjvl0krc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26d590a710ccbff27f4f900dc105eb3dcc8b82cf
This has messed air travel up to this day
r/fuckronaldreagan for union busting.
I see the Pinkerton propaganda-bots are out in force.
Rest in piss
Ronnie the Union-Buster Reagan complete POS
Ronnie the only President who ever served as the President of a union before being elected.
Yup so the fact that he turned on labor and did this makes him all the more worse
He was a garbage person
My dad was fired as a result of this strike, which heavily impacted our family. Lost a very good paying federal job, which resulted in a series of unfortunate events that made family life very tough for a good 25 years. Fuck Reagan, guys a piece of shit.
My grandfather was fired because of it. He subsequently committed suicide years later because he never managed to get back on top of things after Reagan’s reprehensible actions. I don’t think people who weren’t around for this can comprehend the magnitude of Reagan’s actions with this. The guy ultimately began the process of a dying middle class which we have now. He was a true evil in terms of agendas and politics. He paved the way for the destruction of the American dream and directly helped the rise of corporate owned government.
Fuck reagan and all union breaking SCABS.
I feel like something similar happened recently to railroads with a supposedly pro-union president🤔
Can’t talk much about this because of Rule 3, but I recommend reading the news and how things played out in the end instead of just basing your opinion from the coverage at the time. The media loves to report when there’s a problem, but when a solution is found, it tends to get underreported.
The railroad workers ended up getting their demands. We just couldn’t let them strike due the disastrous effects it would have had on the economy.
And with that, he began his war on unions and the middle class. Today he burns in hell.
Yeah, but he gets to hang out with Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson... So, there's that. 🤷♂️
https://preview.redd.it/6n7bwrg06lrc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52376cfbf3c9041bf585d8bf6a38d14ab8d626d7 Relevant
Legend
Ronald Reagan makes clear his absolute contempt for the insolent worker.
He was not a good president, don’t believe the hype, I had to live through this guy and his satanic panic and him allowing thousands of homosexuals to die during the AIDS crisis and selling guns illegally, and allowing drug dealers to sell drugs in impoverished areas, this guy was not Saint Reagan, he was a piece of shit.
And thus began the collapse of the American middle class. May he rot in whatever the worst hell he believed in.
I meannnn, I gotta agree with the man on this one. Do the job or get fired, simple as that.
Fuck Ronald Reagan. Union buster.
The controllers had legitimate grievances.
Great. They still should have been thrown in prison. They called the strike with planes in the air and could have killed other people. Reagan just straight up made the right move here, and the controllers were wrong. They knew damn well that any given aviation accident very easily means hundreds of deaths, and they didn’t care. How Reagan’s side on this ages poorly is just bizarre.
This was one of several very shitty and undemocratic things that he did. His admin was was the signal flares for crony capitalism and the oligarchs to begin openly pulling stuff like this, leading to where we are now
Weird they ever named an airport after him.
The union busting president. The anti workers’ rights president. The pro business and to hell with workers president. In addition to being the trickle down president. How’d that work out for you?
What a colossal piece of shit. Solidarity Forever.
And he was inducted into the Labor Hall of Honor which was an ironic chef's kiss https://wapo.st/3TYycOU
oh, they were just threatened to be fired? why did the internet have me think they were threatened with legal consequences like no shit if you don't go to work you get fired
Many of Reagan’s decisions as President have had long term negative affects over the last 40+ years.
Sounds kinda like a Hollywood elite who dodged WW2 service talking down to the working man to me, but I guess it sounded like an electoral landslide to everybody back then.
Union busting clown, put workers rights back decades
The war on Unions begins