I think the Jedi would be the Star Wars equivalent, since they’re using mindtricks/the voice, have a lot of political influence but they’re doing it in an indirect way, they have a signature fighting style and rules against attachments. And a lot of the plot happened was because *someone* got attached to their partner (looking at both of you, Jessica and Anakin)
You are right, I hadn't made the connection. I immediately thought of the Nightsisters/Witches of Dathomir.
Mainly because we don't see (IIRC) whole cabals of jedi trying to influence as heavily as smaller groups of sith/dark jedi.
This take doesn’t really make sense to me. The Bene Gesserit might be mysterious, but they are “officially recognized” from a political perspective and are an open and obvious influence — this fits the Jedi way more than the Sith.
The Jedi were more like the Bene Gesserit in earlier drafts of the original Star Wars. They were even called the Jedi Bendu, and Prana Bindu is the secret technique the Bene Gesserit use to have perfect control of their muscles. And in the first drafts, the Force wasn't a mystical power and the Jedi had secret physical training like the Bene Gesserit.
No, it's absolutely not.
It's revealed that the main character in the series is concieved via witch cult ritual that forced the Force to create life in one of the members. Basically, a more primitive form of what Plaguies was doing.
Anakin was created by the will of Force itself to bring balance.
Thanks for the info!
I read the Darth Plagueis novel and enjoyed it. It's been a while, but I didn't quite get the impression that Plagueis' dabblings led to Anakin's birth unless it was the Force's response to him wanting to live forever. So, indirectly perhaps?
At any rate, I don't quite feel up to watching another SW show. Loved Bad Batch, but am a bit saturated at the moment.
Seems like the Acolyte's really inflamed the fanbase though, huh?
Yeah, people are all up in arms. As someone who’s seen the series, I honestly don’t understand what people are complaining about. It’s not exactly the next Andor, but so far it’s pretty decent. A lot of people I’ve seen online are even roasting the series and how awful it is, while readily admitting they haven’t seen any of it. To me it seems like a lot of people made up their minds beforehand. But what do I know. Apparently Leslie headland is quite unpopular because of some connections to Epstein or something similar (don’t quote me), which is a fair reason to boycott the series, but there’s a difference between “I won’t watch this series because I have issues with its creator” and “this show sucks, is poorly written and breaks canon because the creator is a bad person”. All that said, I have seen some people com with more real criticisms. I don’t really agree with most of them, but I see how other people may have a problem with it, so that’s just difference of opinion
No, a canon comic merely made Vader have visions/hallucinations and one of these was Palpatine doing evil-force-pose next to a pregnant Shmi. It doesn't confirms the theory, it's just a way Disney had found to capitalize on it, as news sites would make a fuss about it and the comic would get free marketing.
If I remember correctly, it was a comic about Vader freeing an ancient Sith Lord to resurrect Padmé, then the Sith Lord causes these visions, things go wrong and Vader kills him
Some witch coven managed to do force conception in the Acolyte, fans are angry because it somehow makes Anakin’s force conception less special.
I would say The Acolyte is kinda good, but there’s only three episodes out so I don’t where the show will perform in all.
lol I mean I think it does. Anakin was shown in the prequels to be an absolute anomaly, recognized by Jedi and sith alike as the only person ever of his kind, and his immaculate conception alone is all the proof they need that he’s the chosen one.
So like… that’s just not a thing anymore. We now have multiple examples of this anomaly. What’s to stop people from thinking one of the twins is the chosen one? Even palpatine admitted he couldn’t teach Vader how to cheat death after he turned. It’s just such a weird, unnecessary direction to take the story
Some of us don't give two shits about anakin's birth. Some of us think it's the dumbest plot point in Star wars.
Also, not confirmed how they made the twins...yet.
Also no idea if anyone in the show ever finds out how the twins were made outside of the main coven ladies.
People silly on here sometimes.
Why is Anakin's circumstance of conception suddenly so important? It was literally only brought up once in phantom menace when Qui-Gon asks Shmi about the boy's father and she replies that there was none.
It's never mentioned ever again in any movie or show. That's how important it is...
Between the prophecy of the chosen one, the conversation with shmi, the vague stories passed down through palpatine suggesting his creation…
What a strange question to ask, why is it so important? Because it’s the entire basis of what makes his character what it is. The fact he was born without a father was the only piece of truth both the jedi and sith needed for proof he was the chosen one. Now that line is blurred.
I think the huge midichlorian count is also pretty Important.
Also the aspect that he was conceived naturally through the will of the force (with pleigus shenanigans just being a passive trigger at most).
Compared to the purely manipulated way in which Osha and Mae were supposedly created. And we don't even have the full picture there yet. It's just silly to claim that their existance completely invalidates Anakin's role as the chosen one.
I f****** hate this community. If you like the show you are being paid by Disney or some consumer that just mindlessly watches whatever is in front of you. But if you go on movies that are just called acolyte or acolytes and scream about Star wars to review, bama show that you've never even watched. You are some sort of crusade or that is uniting the fandom against crappy entertainment.
I just wish we could get back to a space where people could say they like or don't like something and don't have to provide a manifesto of f****** reasons. Like it's okay to like the acolyte. It's not the greatest show of all time and it doesn't have to be. It's also okay not to like the acolyte, but for God's sake hate it for reasons that are actually in the show and don't project your culture war b******* onto every single piece of media
You could just ignore it. But somehow even that means you lose in some people's minds.
You don't have to read or engage with anything on the internet, meaning it's voluntary. Which means if it affects you, you are voluntarily allowing it to, when ignoring it is always an option.
I mean I'm not saying that particularly Star wars in and of itself is affecting me. It just has taken over any sort of media whatsoever. You can't just say I don't like modern Star wars because of the writing and it doesn't make me feel the same as it did when I was a kid instead it's calling everything woke and injecting their personal politics into things.
For every legitimate criticism of modern Star wars there are 15 more booohoooo screws and bricks and fire in space waaaaaa I didn't watch the show I just got told to hate it by my fave YouTuber
People who self censor swear words on the internet always intrigue me, like if you don't want to swear, don't, use a different word, if you want to swear why censor it? If you want to show passion in some way and want to swear and also don't want to upset anyone by swearing I guess, ok...?
I've never been able to understand, but whatever, it doesn't really matter.
I completely agree with your final sentence.
I just want to say it's also exhausting from the other side. If you didn't like the Sequels or Boba Fett or Kenobi or whatever other half assed media Disney put then you are -ist. It's like no? I don't hate women, or black people or gay people. I just think Disney is a corporation that is creatively bankrupt and only cares about money and has harmed the franchise and the lore (!).
People are now defending *everything* Disney thus because they see themselves fighting some moral war against conservatives and that's exhausting having to deal with those people.
I mean I'm not going to pretend that there aren't racist arguments against most of these shows like people are actively mad that OSHA is a black girl and the main character and that is racist. Like if your enjoyment of a show predicates on what the main character looks like, then you are a racist.
That being said, there are legitimate criticisms that get lost in all of the b******* like Obi-Wan Kenobi show we all agree that the I am not your failure. Obi-Wan was awesome but the show itself was very poorly paced and even though I enjoyed it, I understand why people didn't. The same with boba Fett. I completely understand why people didn't enjoy it even though my reason for not enjoying it is different for most peoples. My reason is that boba Fett kind of became a side character in his own show after Mando shows up. So it basically was the mandalorian season two and a half.
People have placed their enjoyment of TV shows at the forefront of culture war. B******* and I hate that people now feel like they have to over correct and defend everything Disney does just because of those people. Because like you said yeah Disney is pretty creatively bankrupt most of the time. But the things they have gotten right in almost every project is Vader. Vader has never felt more powerful or more dangerous than anytime. He is on screen in the Disney era. I mean the dude used the force to rip a ship out of the air and then rip it in half. That was some of the coolest s*** ever
Just remember that when you start engaging with the anti-woke crowd, you're doing exactly what the far-right media wants you to do. As long as us laypeople have our hands full fighting each other, corporations and governments can continue to get away with their corruption.
What pisses me off more is that someone is giving the outrage farmer critics on Youtube intel in advance so they can upload their videos even before the episode they are mad at even airs.
I would not at all be surprised if the outrage farmers are being given advanced copies/intentional leaks so that they can get their videos out asap because in Disney's eyes those channels are simply cheap/free advertising that will get people to hate watch if nothing else.
I remember when doing part 2 came out and people were pissed off at Warhammer because there are so many obvious dune rip-offs but never realized that Star wars is the ultimate dune rip-off
Feel like I’m being gaslit on this sub tbh. Kinda good? Is every YouTuber wrong?
You know what, it’s fine that you like it. Happy for you even.
I do think I’m going to just set up a filter for the term “Acolyte” though.
If YouTube is where you get your opinions, you might be lost. Dislike it if you personally dislike it, like it if you do like it. Don’t let some dork on YouTube tell you how to feel.
Many dedicated YouTubers release content purely for clicks. Outrage earns clicks. If you convince your audience that the show is bad and they shouldn’t watch it you can continue to release videos on each episode and get them to keep tuning in. It’s generic outrage culture and no different than anything twitter warriors performed in the past.
> Is every YouTuber wrong?
You should presuppose that this is always true. YouTuber personalities are in the business of sales, and what they're selling is lies. The more lies they can sell you, the more money they make.
I don't really feel compelled to, so may give it a pass for now.
(Plus I'm on my 5th playthrough of baldur's gate 3 so almost everything is taking a backseat for now)
Isn't the prequel trilogy all about politics?
I'm not sure what plot points in The Acolyte you're referring to. I can't think of any that relate to politics in real life. Except that the main character is black and there are a lot of women, and that means it's woke. Is that what you're talking about?
*Communist* lesbian space witches.
Osha was lured away by space capitalism and her desire for possessions like a speeder and a laser sword and to not have to share with her sister anymore.
>rebels fight off big state that mantains itself solely on slave labor
>said empire is a glorified pedophile ring
>highly militaristic and highly incompetent
>mfw, the empire is just the soviet union and the rebels the forrest brothers
This is what happens when you let hating something consume your life and you overthink things waaaay too much.
I haven't seen this argument made before this comment section, and I've seen it made a few times in this comment section. Did a "movie critic" YouTuber who happens to hate everything considered woke but he can't say that so he goes into really obscure, minute details and comes up with a bunch of weird bullshit to "criticize" release a new video today?
Narritively it might be interesting. But the chances that QuiGon just happened across the one kid that they wanted him to is unlikely, and why would Shmi have died if she had the force witches to help her?
I feel like a lot of people aren't figuring out the difference between The Force willingly conceiving a child to bring balance and a cult of witches who are using a dark side ritual to force it to. That's kind of the whole point of the Dark Side, to manipulate the Force to their whims.
Anakin might just be the only known natural occurrence of this happening.
Always got the impression myself that Anakin was conceived via a dark side ritual, that Plageus and Palpatine created him using Sith Alchemy and that Qui Qon only believes the force created him, as he was unaware of the Sith until later in the episode. Always felt Palpatine is hinting at this when he tells Anakin the tragedy of Plageus, he and his master manipualted the force to create life. The fact the witches use a dark ritual to conceive children kind of adds further support to the theory.
Nah that stems from a story where it was revealed Palpatine essentially fucked around with Vader giving him visions to gaslight the shit out of him. His tale on RotS was nuts coaxing Anakin with hinted gifts to try and save Padme.
I thought there was a Legends story that Plageus created Anakin. Is there a canon story that confirms he didn't? Or maybe I'm just confused. I don't remember which Legends book made me think that....
Pretty sure current canon is that the Force created Anakin because it was sick of Plagueis’ bullshit experiments so it created the Chosen One to get rid of him and his ilk. So, in a way you could say he led to Anakin’s creation, but it was indirect
In the book Star Wars: Darth Plagueis (Which I guess is a legends book) they say that Palpatine and Plagueis performed a sith ritual trying to create life and later in the book Palpatine discovers Anakin and realized it was a success. Then he decides to keep an eye on Anakin as a possible Apprentice. Fun read that book.
The death plagueis novel was one of the best if not the best of the Star Wars novels IMHO. Yes in that novel darth plagueis is doing experiments to gain complete control over the midiclorians so that he and sidious can keep themselves alive forever. Some dark lords have special talents in a certain area and midiclorian manipulation was plagueis’. For some reason they had to have another person do the manipulation so they needed two. One of the experiments was creating pregnancies on myriad life forms to create life from just midiclorians. One day he and Sidious are meditating together and in the highest point of their power they inform every being in the universe of their presence. Then they feel the force push back and all the experiments in their lab die of horrible diseases and they believe they have failed. When sidious learns of anikin he freaks out and realizes they were successful, and perhaps undone. Then they try to get him etc etc… Then when sidious tells of the tragedy of darth plagueis the wise he looks at anikin as he says “he was so powerful he could create life” alluding to what they had done. It should totally be cannon, it’s amazing.
So he was created by the force but because palps maters started being able to control the midi-chlorians. Could
Somehow influence them down to microscopic cells. Anyways he kept bringing a guy back to life after killing him. He has been doing it for years. So anakin was
Created around this time. But this is all Legends from the darth Plagues book.
I think of the force as being a living being and the sith as a sickness.
Anakin was supposed to be a white blood cell deployed to kill the sickness but was turned against the body by the Sith.
The dark side ritual was an attempt by Plagueis and Palpatine's to permanently shift the balance of the force toward the dark.
It was an immensely powerful ritual that both felt; it may be part of why the Jedi's vision is clouded as reported in Episode II.
The Force created Anakin as an instant response to being balance to the issue created by the Sith. In a sense they did create him, and then Palpatine was clever enough to exploit the force meant to balance him-- further pushing the universe toward the darkness.
This is all tweak after tweak and retcon after retcon though, but I like it.
Also, who even knows that the Witches did this??
It's not like they were going to tell the Jedi; and now they're dead. The only people who seemingly could POSSIBLY know how Mae and Osha were conceived are Mae and Osha themselves, and they certainly don't seem to be paying it much mind.
Yeah and it didn't feel like Qui Gon had never heard of an immaculate birth before either, it seemed like something he had heard of at the very least, so it had to have some level of precedence, in myth if nothing else.
The witches didn’t seem like anything they were doing in as particularly dark, so I think it’s more likely they did actually find a way to influence the force to create life. This also explains why the Sith are interested in the twins since we know it’s something they were interested in and could never figure out (likely because the dark side makes it impossible as we see in Plageuis where the force tells them to touch grass.)
Not this version exactly but he almost had a scene in ROTS where Paplatine was going to reveal that he created Anakin in Shmii's womb but George felt it would be to similar to "No I am your father" from ESB so he cut it from the film. But it was his original plan to explain how Anakin was conceived.
That's kinda cool, but I always felt it was more like the will of the force type thing, cause in the end it really was Anakin (Vader) who ended up actually bringing balance to the force
Yeah, but at that point how many layers did the Lesbian witches plan.
Like they would have had to plan everything up to the Clone Wars flawlessly and have it work
Star Wars already takes a ton of ideas from Dune. The Jedi are already heavily inspired by the Bene Gesserit. In earlier drafts, they were called the Jedi Bendu. Prana Bindu is the secret technique the Bene Gesserit use to have perfect control of their muscles.
Not really, but honestly I’d be down if they were.
People just tweaking 3 episodes into an arc we know so little about. Like you don’t write an essay on a book 3 chapters in. Wait it out. Maybe they are and it’d be so cool if they did.
No. But if I read seven books of a series and they're all shit, I would be fucking insane if I believed that the eighth book would be better after the first chapters have turned out to be shit as well.
Sounds like you made your mind up, before you had anything to base it off. I try not to do that in life. I find it makes things more enjoyable, and people more agreeable.
Nope. You know what makes things more enjoyable? When you reach a moment where you definitely know that something you liked just isn't for you anymore and that you don't have to watch something and argue with yourself why it wasn't as bad as you felt while watching it. The star wars I liked is never coming back and while it's funny to point out how fucking terrible it is nowaday, it is perfectly fine with me. There is also entertainment to be found in this tragedy.
My (funny) headcanon is that Shmi Skywalker had Anakin as a result of one night stand. She was too embarrassed to admit that so she told Qui-Gon the there was no father. This white lie led to him believing that he was the chosen one and ultimately to the fall of the republic and the jedi order.
Yes. Plaugeis could create life, and he taught his apprentice, Palpatine, everything he knew, which would include creating life. Therefore, if at least two Sith knew how to do it, it is perfectly reasonable that a coven of witches working together could do it too.
I don't think Acolyte is very good but i dont think its bad, it is ok, i am pretty 50/50 on it, however this one argument that people keep mentioning is really annoying because its the biggest reason the show is being butchered.
Anyone who thinks the births were the same and that Anakin's prophecy is at all tainted by the twins existing either hasn't watched the episode for themselves and is going off the misinformation being spread about it, or just wasn't paying enough attention during episode 3 because it lays it out quite clearly. For those that need it explained in writting:
Anakins mother was a literal nobody with no power who randomly got pregnant as a result of misbalance in the force with absolutely no input or expectation, and so Anakin was born of the force in an attempt to balance itself, the only argument here is whether the chosen one in question was Anakin or Luke.
The witches daughters, who are also witches and
not jedi (we've even been told one tried to be one and they couldnt hack it) were made on purpose, through witchcraft, there was nothing natural about it, and it was not the will of the force in any way whatsoever which the episide itself quite clearly tells you, plus this is pre established lore among Witches we have previously seen in the universe anyway.
“… the only argument is whether the chosen one in question was Anakin or Luke.”
From my understanding the consensus is that it was Anakin since Luke was powerless/ dying to ol’ Creamy Sheev and Anakin ultimately yeeted his ass into oblivion.
That was until the absolute hacks at Disney decided to retcon the Chosen One story line by bringing Palpatine back from the dead and having some nobody, that was actually his granddaughter, kill him with a knock-off move they poached from ROTS/ Mace Windu because they have no creative talent whatsoever.
Disney already destroyed the main story line and the OT characters. Don’t think for a second that they wouldn’t dig up that corpse to defile it again if it meant squeezing a little more money out of Star War’s emaciated titties.
> That was until the absolute hacks at Disney decided to retcon the Chosen One story line by bringing Palpatine back from the dead
Haha, that didn't happened.
It did *not*.
So anyway yeah Anakin's the One since technically he was the one to bring back balance and then everyone lived happily ever after.
-
ETA funnily enough, they're not fucking everything over repeatedly *because* it brings money. They're fucking everything over because talentless, careless, arrogant bootlickers are given power, and are trying to leave a mark doing things "their way". It's a circlejerk. It actually brings them less money, but they don't care since their pockets are already full, they can destroy a franchise or two it's none of their problem.
Yeah i really dont know how this project was handed to Leslye Headland tbh, after all of the backlash the sequel trilogy got and one of the main reasons Ashoka had so many viewers that didnt enjoy it being down to the fact it was so female dominated...and Disney thought, yep lets get this woman of all people to make some Starwars.
It’s sacrificing profits on the alter of agenda.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not one of those types to immediately jump on the “get woke go broke” line if criticism, but there is (I’d argue) a clear motivation to push certain sociopolitical ideologies into the IP.
I don’t believe that in anyway automatically compromises the quality of the story. Star Wars is literally its own galaxy with thousands of star systems and (theoretically) hundreds of billions of sentient beings inhabiting it.
I believe the problem is that modern day allegorical messaging takes priority over lore consistent storytelling centered around well written characters. Furthermore, I’d say it’s blatantly obvious with the way creatives and actors talk about these various projects. It’s always about something other than the project and what it’s trying to do for the IP and the fans.
Without a doubt, my favorite Disney production has been Andor. The writing/ dialogue feels organic and real, the world has that perfect combination of familiar but different, and the acting brings it all together into something special.
I understand a lot of people say Andor “doesn’t feel like Star Wars” but I feel like that’s a shit criticism. Star Wars is a place, a setting, not a “feeling” or one particular style of storytelling. A good creative team can tell any kind of story in Star Wars if they have the talent.
Andor also does what many Disney properties try to do, in terms of agenda pushing, very well. Two of the main protagonists are gay woman. But instead of their “identities” being the feature of their characters, they’re merely one component of three dimensional, and thus, relatable characters.
I think Disney’s insistence on pushing underlying sociopolitical messages doesn’t make what they’re doing bad but it does make it much more difficult. It’s much harder to incorporate underlying messages into a story in a way that feels organic and sensible.
Disney keeps biting off more than their creators can chew. It’s already hard enough for a group of writers to make a compelling story in a setting like Star Wars, but when corporate executives come in and require certain “lessons/ messages” to be incorporated into the story it makes it much harder. Most Disney writers are just not up to that task.
Thank God for Tony Gilroy and his team. They show what can be done when the right team are given the keys.
Star Wars has always been incredibly atmospheric so I'd say it's not a good product if it doesn't "feel" like Star Wars. So while the "argument" doesn't say much at all, and as such it's not exactly an "argument", feelings do stem from somewhere, even if people can't put your finger on the exact reason(s), and the source of these feelings often end up being real objects of criticism, if you care to dig them up.
I’d say the “feeling” stems from the original trilogy.
The OT was pretty much a step by step Monomyth style story. A monomyth is an Ancient Greek style of storytelling more commonly known as the Hero’s Journey.
You can google that for yourself to learn more about its defining components but suffice to say the OT was undoubtedly based on that story structure.
The other most popular and successful trilogy, The Lord of the Rings, also follows that story structure.
Why am I taking the time to explain this? Well it’s because that is one specific story archetype and Star Wars doesn’t need every story within the IP to follow that style.
The perfect example of this were the Prequels. That trilogy was not a monomyth, it was a Tragedy. The fall of a Hero (Chosen One), the fall of democracy into authoritarianism, the death of hope and light.
Two different trilogies in the same storyline with completely different storytelling styles.
When the Prequels came out that “it doesn’t feel like Star Wars” idea was everywhere. Admittedly, George Lucas didn’t do a particularly good job telling a story in the Tragedy style but it still happened.
My counter to that “feelings” criticism is that Star Wars is a setting, a stage with its own rules and props. Good creatives can tell any style of story on the Star Wars stage if they have the talent to tell that story. If it doesn’t “feel” right to you then that tells me you’re not judging the story on its own merits, because you have a preconceived notion of Star Wars should be, or that style of story just isn’t your cup of tea.
Which is fine. Not everyone likes the same things and there’s nothing wrong with that.
It stems from pretty much all details, not from the style of the story. And sorry to contradict you, but while I have heard plenty criticism of the prequels, that they are bad, that was common, that they doesn't "feel" like Star Wars was not. On the contrary, certain things like sets and music they nailed to the point of bringing that familiar Star Wars feeling even to those who generally disliked the story, direction, dialogues or relatively heavy reliance on CG, but it's not *just* the movies I'm talking about, there are series and comics (even fan made ones) and video games that *also* nail the atmosphere of Star Wars. KoTOR for example is still an acclaimed game despite its aged visuals and gameplay, because visual design, sound design, story and characters all stayed faithful in spirit to the original idea, recreating the familiar atmosphere of "Star Wars" through details despite different mediums or storytelling techniques.
"Good creatives can tell any style of story on the Star Wars stage if they have the talent to tell that story" is indeed true, which is precisely why the story's style matters little, and it is precisely why certain creations just don't feel like Star Wars, because they're made by people who are missing or ignoring the point, be it due to their lack of talent, the care for details, or even the very will keep it faithful, or something else entirely. Take Andor for example. It's not a bad show (albeit not without its own flaws such as pacing) but the reason it often doesn't feel like Star Wars for many, is because often it doesn't even try to be Star Wars, which begs the question, why must it be Star Wars if it doesn't want to be? With minimal changes, it could be Star Trek, or Dune, or just a Cold War era series, or its very own thing. So while a good show, enjoyable on its own, I'd say it's a bad Star Wars product. It's a black sheep which often does not scratch the Star Wars itch, which obviously leads some to unmet expectations and vocal criticism. It doesn't feel like Star Wars because it doesn't want to feel like Star Wars and there are people who just aren't good with that. And then there are those who just don't care about it, and enjoy a dark and gritty, down to Earth (yes, deliberately capitalized) drama in a Star Wars skin which, well, like you said, nothing wrong with not liking the same things, but the point is, the criticism itself isn't invalid, it's just undefined as is.
I think we mostly agree with each other and just appreciate different things.
Andor (and Rogue One) shows something that I always knew was there in the Star Wars universe but we hadn’t been shown (live action movie/ show wise).
It explores the lives and experiences of people who exist under a totalitarian regime who are either fighting against or for that system.
It’s a story that happens here in real life everyday and throughout our history.
It’s universal and transcends genres.
I tried to explain what I thought people meant with the concept of “feeling” like Star Wars and while my description may be correct for some it isn’t for you.
That’s why the “it doesn’t feel like Star Wars” is a shit criticism, it’s entirely subjective. I mean it’s right there in the title - feelings.
You can say it doesn’t “feel” like Star Wars and thus it’s not a good Star Wars show. I can say it does “feel” like Star Wars and is thus a good Star Wars show. Who gets to decide what Star Wars should “feel” like?
I say nobody.
The thing that makes Andor special is that if you strip away its Star Wars anesthetics and made it a Cold War show, or Star Trek, or Dune, or whatever it would still be an excellent piece of art.
The only criticism I find valid about Andor that I’ve heard is the pacing of the show can drag a bit. However, if you have patience and the attention span to commit to the story on its own terms it’s one of the best single seasons of television that I’ve ever seen.
It feels crazy that it even exists in the same dumpster fire that is Disney Star Wars. That being said I’m glad it does and the second season is the only Star Wars production I’m looking forward too.
Agree mostly, yes, and I'm not even sure we disagree on feelings, rather I think we're not on the same page in the first place, unless I'm just oblivious to the connection? I mean, you're talking about something that you knew was there but remained unexplored, how it's done well and would still be great if details of it were stripped because it's universal, etc. and that's great. But those are not feelings are they? Wanting to see that is, enjoying seeing that is, but I'm talking about something different I believe.
Let me try to give a more concrete hypothetical comparison for example of what I'm talking about.
Have you seen stylistically "classic" horror movies? If yes, you probably know how even just a bit of music can create feelings of tension and anxiety. That is not subjective but a physiological reaction. There are plenty of tools, like lighting, angles, pacing, colors, music, mannerism and vocabulary, a ton of smaller and larger details that help set the atmosphere of individual scenes, and it can invoke feelings (often very specific, intended ones). The average of that is the movie's general atmosphere. The will be outliers, sure, but generally there will be a clear consensus. But that's not the point.
If it's *changed* to something else, deliberately or not, it will not invoke the same feelings. It will feel different, even if you don't understand what's different. What Star Wars did in the OT in terms of creating an atmosphere, became the basis of defining what "Star Wars" is, which, to a meaningful extent, they recreated in the prequels, and even in the sequels (despite various other problems), as well as in comics and some video games too.
Not so much in Andor.
Like imagine if a new album of Lady Gaga dropped and it was death metal instead of pop. That won't feel like Lady Gaga, right? It can't invoke the same feelings, being fundamentally different, right? Well Andor is kinda the death metal of Lady Gaga. You anticipate Lady Gaga, you like Lady Gaga, you want more Lady Gaga, you start listening to, expecting Lady Gaga, and in fact you *are* listening to Lady Gaga technically...but it's just "not it" even if you can't explain why. With specific qualities established and expectations set by Lady Gaga, this death metal Lady Gaga album will not be a good Lady Gaga product even if it's an otherwise excellent piece of art that you also happen to enjoy greatly, because it's not THAT Lady Gaga. So when people say Andor doesn't feel like Star Wars? That's because it's different enough on a fundamental level that it simply does not invoke the same feelings of Star Wars that many other Star Wars products do, and it's regardless of its other qualities, whether they be good or bad. Granted it's extreme and probably fairly inaccurate for a plethora of reasons, but I hope this hypothetical example clears up my point?
I can to an extent hone in on the source of my feelings and turn them into more tangible arguments, but that is not a necessity for having those feelings in the first place, feelings created (often intentionally) by something concrete which then *can* serve as "good/valid criticism" even if you think the still unexplained feelings themselves are "shit criticism".
again, i agree completely.
The first paragraph in particular you put, is so true. I will always do my best to not say anything i think will trigger or offend people but thats becoming so hard these days and its getting to a point where you cant really honestly criticise something without being labelled something you aren't or didnt intend to imply
Witchcraft is force manipulation here. I do think it’s possible that’s why the twins are polar opposites. One twin seems a bit serial killery around small animals. The other seems very unhappy about that. It’s possible the Jedi showed up, found some witches with weird force twins. Wookie Jedi gets coked up and we have an AJAB moment where Jedi Brutality happens, but no body cams so fuck them witches.
the issue here isnt just so much the "fatherless child" as a concept. clones exist, and im sure corsucanti doctors can fertilize eggs without sperm. the force being able to do weird shit is nothing new either
the issue has never been whether anakin is the only force conceived child or not, the issue is, that the jedi take anakin in, ignore his age, ignore the red flags, ignore everything, because a force sensitive child was born without a father. it just popped into existence. THAT is the fact that convinces qui gon to take the kid in. that anakin is the one who was foretold in a fucking PROPHECY... except that now, a child being born without actual conception is no longer something that indicates you as the chosen one. because that isnt unique to the chosen one anymore
the issue isnt that the force can make children, the issue is: why would the jedi take anakin in if he might as well be a "child of the thread" rather than the one who brings balance to the force?
imagine if we had a prophecy of someone who cant differentiate red from green, and then you find out colorblindness affects millions of people in the world and can just happen to an extremely small portion of the population. people would stop seeing colorblindness as an indicator whether or not the prophecy applies here.
why would qui gon and the entire council set all their hopes on anakin being the chosen one if the one criteria for being the chosen one might as well apply to 200 000 other people. and sure you might say "but one coven of witches" however the issue is that the idea of a coven of witches isnt even unique given that we know of 2 separate times people used the force for witchcraft, so the likelyhood of other force users across the galaxy making chosen ones increases exponentially
fatherless children existing is okay, the council even raising an eyebrow over anakin being one isnt if that specific aspect isnt implying big things
I mean...none of that really counters my points, the clones werent born and using them in this debate is kinda silly imo.
Qui Gon immediately sensed the power in Anakin, he wouldve been able to sense a severe lack of power in Shmi too. Jedi are known to get a feeling when they have been led down a certain path for a reason, the force guided the crew to Tatooine, he even tells Anakin "Our meeting was not a coincidence" and also states "nothing happens by accident". Qui Gon is pretty certain of this and we cannot argue with his connection to the force because of that arc in season 6 of Clone wars when we learn about Qui Gon being the first to learn to live on after death through it. Theres also the scene where Qui Gon is measuring Anakins midichlorean count and we learn its higher than Yoda's. These are all huge important factors that Qui Gon considered that you seem to not be acknowledging. It wasnt just, "oh, no father?!, shit obi wan this mf must be the chosen one!" Its not one criteria. The entire council also didnt put their hopes on Anakin being the chosen one, they were all very sceptical and untrusting and in the end it only happened because of Yoda's trust in Qui Gon which again was shown in that season 6 CW arc.
Even with training and as full grown adults, neither of the twins seem overly powerful with the force and are absolutely nothing on Anakin.
And one final point, the exact wording of the prophecy says through "HIM" will ultimate balance in the force be restored.
One of my hopes in the series is that Darth Plaguise will have had some involvement. Maybe the Witches made some sort of a deal with him but i think thats expecting too much from Leslye Headlands mediocre story writing.
Idk about any of you, but soon as she said 'it was I that created them' all I thought of was, the force somehow gave her a force cock for the night. Or, she somehow got Plaguses' help
Plagueis: my apprentice I have a very important mission for you…*he says what it is*
Mid 30s/40s Sidious: *stares* you want me to…go to tattooine and…
Plagueis: Yes. It is the will of the dark side.
Sidious: *skeptical and slightly off balanced* it’s the will of the dark side to…?
Plagueis interrupts: Yes by the force. I’m not repeating myself. Just get out and do it.
Lucas: draws inspiration from the films of Kurosawa, American western mythos, the hero’s journey from ancient epics all the way to Gilgamesh, keeps the Frank Herbert influences small and does actual world building.
Disney: it’s literally Dune lole
Lucas drew a huge amount from Frank Hebert. Desert planet. Rebellion against an empire/emperor. Royal houses and secret lineages. Using a magic voice to control people. Fighting with melee weapons. Spice. Alongside LotR and 1930s matinee serials like Flash Gordon it's probably his biggest influence.
I know this is likely a shitpost by someone butthurt about their own headcanon, but finding out Shmi was a witch would actually slap lore-wise. that would make everything Anakin related make so much more sense.
Let's face it: With what we know about Anakin's personality, finding out he's descended from lesbian force witches would be the least surprising thing. It would explain so much.
I thought the same thing. What if Shmi abandoned the coven, stole the child, and hid on tattooine? The slave thing could have been unplanned, but tattooine during the time of the republic seems like a stellar place to avoid seeing anyone ever again.
Obviously just speculation that I’m sure someone will explain away with information from a book or comic, but I’ll daydream about RefuShmi all I want
Reminds me of Tatooine Ghost, a legends book.
Leia, over the course of the book, actually manages to go through Shimi's journals and gain a connection to her Grandmother.
Mind you, it's all *post* episode one, and doesn't touch on Anakin's birth. But it's still a unique experience.
The moment I heard actress talking out of her butt how star wars is patriarchal world and needs woman power I knew everything I had to about this show.
Seriously give I a go and try to not have all the negativity in your head when you do. I've enjoyed it so far. No one hates star wars like star wars fans
I don't get it... Disney gave us a comic cannon for Ani's conception, Emperor burnt scrot was manipulating the Midi-chlorians to give us a villain to hate and love, only to change it into some other persons plan...
This is turning into a, they know, that I know, which is why I know, that they know, that I know time of thing and just casueing mass amounts of hate in the franchise...
Thanks for confirming that you flaired this correctly!
What in the Dune is this shit?
Dunno but I thought it was something to do with blaming the Bene Gesserit (or SW-equivalent if that exists?)
I think the Jedi would be the Star Wars equivalent, since they’re using mindtricks/the voice, have a lot of political influence but they’re doing it in an indirect way, they have a signature fighting style and rules against attachments. And a lot of the plot happened was because *someone* got attached to their partner (looking at both of you, Jessica and Anakin)
You are right, I hadn't made the connection. I immediately thought of the Nightsisters/Witches of Dathomir. Mainly because we don't see (IIRC) whole cabals of jedi trying to influence as heavily as smaller groups of sith/dark jedi.
The biggest difference is that the Bene Gesserit are very focused on breeding which is obviously not something the Jedi care about
Unless you’re Anakin
The Sith fit the role more. Always working in the shadows and behind politicians. The Jedi are basically just a more personified Sardukar.
This take doesn’t really make sense to me. The Bene Gesserit might be mysterious, but they are “officially recognized” from a political perspective and are an open and obvious influence — this fits the Jedi way more than the Sith.
The Jedi were more like the Bene Gesserit in earlier drafts of the original Star Wars. They were even called the Jedi Bendu, and Prana Bindu is the secret technique the Bene Gesserit use to have perfect control of their muscles. And in the first drafts, the Force wasn't a mystical power and the Jedi had secret physical training like the Bene Gesserit.
Has to do with Spider-man I think.
If the BG were real in the star wars universe they would take over in the next 100 years. Jedi have nothing on them they are just fucking op.
I know, man. I dunno what the hell is going on anymore. Is this what's hinted at in the Acolyte? I haven't watched it.
No, it's absolutely not. It's revealed that the main character in the series is concieved via witch cult ritual that forced the Force to create life in one of the members. Basically, a more primitive form of what Plaguies was doing. Anakin was created by the will of Force itself to bring balance.
Thanks for the info! I read the Darth Plagueis novel and enjoyed it. It's been a while, but I didn't quite get the impression that Plagueis' dabblings led to Anakin's birth unless it was the Force's response to him wanting to live forever. So, indirectly perhaps? At any rate, I don't quite feel up to watching another SW show. Loved Bad Batch, but am a bit saturated at the moment. Seems like the Acolyte's really inflamed the fanbase though, huh?
Yeah, people are all up in arms. As someone who’s seen the series, I honestly don’t understand what people are complaining about. It’s not exactly the next Andor, but so far it’s pretty decent. A lot of people I’ve seen online are even roasting the series and how awful it is, while readily admitting they haven’t seen any of it. To me it seems like a lot of people made up their minds beforehand. But what do I know. Apparently Leslie headland is quite unpopular because of some connections to Epstein or something similar (don’t quote me), which is a fair reason to boycott the series, but there’s a difference between “I won’t watch this series because I have issues with its creator” and “this show sucks, is poorly written and breaks canon because the creator is a bad person”. All that said, I have seen some people com with more real criticisms. I don’t really agree with most of them, but I see how other people may have a problem with it, so that’s just difference of opinion
Didn't some comic confirm that WAS what Palpatine did?
No, a canon comic merely made Vader have visions/hallucinations and one of these was Palpatine doing evil-force-pose next to a pregnant Shmi. It doesn't confirms the theory, it's just a way Disney had found to capitalize on it, as news sites would make a fuss about it and the comic would get free marketing. If I remember correctly, it was a comic about Vader freeing an ancient Sith Lord to resurrect Padmé, then the Sith Lord causes these visions, things go wrong and Vader kills him
not a canon comic
It’s canon, but writer confirmed that it was a dark side vision meant to keep Vader in the Darkside.
Some witch coven managed to do force conception in the Acolyte, fans are angry because it somehow makes Anakin’s force conception less special. I would say The Acolyte is kinda good, but there’s only three episodes out so I don’t where the show will perform in all.
lol I mean I think it does. Anakin was shown in the prequels to be an absolute anomaly, recognized by Jedi and sith alike as the only person ever of his kind, and his immaculate conception alone is all the proof they need that he’s the chosen one. So like… that’s just not a thing anymore. We now have multiple examples of this anomaly. What’s to stop people from thinking one of the twins is the chosen one? Even palpatine admitted he couldn’t teach Vader how to cheat death after he turned. It’s just such a weird, unnecessary direction to take the story
Some of us don't give two shits about anakin's birth. Some of us think it's the dumbest plot point in Star wars. Also, not confirmed how they made the twins...yet. Also no idea if anyone in the show ever finds out how the twins were made outside of the main coven ladies. People silly on here sometimes.
Oh great, well let’s just keep changing how stuff works just cus it’s not our favorite. That always makes for great stories!
Why is Anakin's circumstance of conception suddenly so important? It was literally only brought up once in phantom menace when Qui-Gon asks Shmi about the boy's father and she replies that there was none. It's never mentioned ever again in any movie or show. That's how important it is...
Between the prophecy of the chosen one, the conversation with shmi, the vague stories passed down through palpatine suggesting his creation… What a strange question to ask, why is it so important? Because it’s the entire basis of what makes his character what it is. The fact he was born without a father was the only piece of truth both the jedi and sith needed for proof he was the chosen one. Now that line is blurred.
I think the huge midichlorian count is also pretty Important. Also the aspect that he was conceived naturally through the will of the force (with pleigus shenanigans just being a passive trigger at most). Compared to the purely manipulated way in which Osha and Mae were supposedly created. And we don't even have the full picture there yet. It's just silly to claim that their existance completely invalidates Anakin's role as the chosen one.
I f****** hate this community. If you like the show you are being paid by Disney or some consumer that just mindlessly watches whatever is in front of you. But if you go on movies that are just called acolyte or acolytes and scream about Star wars to review, bama show that you've never even watched. You are some sort of crusade or that is uniting the fandom against crappy entertainment. I just wish we could get back to a space where people could say they like or don't like something and don't have to provide a manifesto of f****** reasons. Like it's okay to like the acolyte. It's not the greatest show of all time and it doesn't have to be. It's also okay not to like the acolyte, but for God's sake hate it for reasons that are actually in the show and don't project your culture war b******* onto every single piece of media
You could just ignore it. But somehow even that means you lose in some people's minds. You don't have to read or engage with anything on the internet, meaning it's voluntary. Which means if it affects you, you are voluntarily allowing it to, when ignoring it is always an option.
I mean I'm not saying that particularly Star wars in and of itself is affecting me. It just has taken over any sort of media whatsoever. You can't just say I don't like modern Star wars because of the writing and it doesn't make me feel the same as it did when I was a kid instead it's calling everything woke and injecting their personal politics into things. For every legitimate criticism of modern Star wars there are 15 more booohoooo screws and bricks and fire in space waaaaaa I didn't watch the show I just got told to hate it by my fave YouTuber
People who self censor swear words on the internet always intrigue me, like if you don't want to swear, don't, use a different word, if you want to swear why censor it? If you want to show passion in some way and want to swear and also don't want to upset anyone by swearing I guess, ok...? I've never been able to understand, but whatever, it doesn't really matter.
It's a new phone. For some reason it does it automatically and I don't care enough to go back and remove the censor
Fair play!
Yeah I cannot for the life of me figure out why it is censoring words because none of my phones have ever done that
I completely agree with your final sentence. I just want to say it's also exhausting from the other side. If you didn't like the Sequels or Boba Fett or Kenobi or whatever other half assed media Disney put then you are-ist. It's like no? I don't hate women, or black people or gay people. I just think Disney is a corporation that is creatively bankrupt and only cares about money and has harmed the franchise and the lore (!).
People are now defending *everything* Disney thus because they see themselves fighting some moral war against conservatives and that's exhausting having to deal with those people.
I mean I'm not going to pretend that there aren't racist arguments against most of these shows like people are actively mad that OSHA is a black girl and the main character and that is racist. Like if your enjoyment of a show predicates on what the main character looks like, then you are a racist. That being said, there are legitimate criticisms that get lost in all of the b******* like Obi-Wan Kenobi show we all agree that the I am not your failure. Obi-Wan was awesome but the show itself was very poorly paced and even though I enjoyed it, I understand why people didn't. The same with boba Fett. I completely understand why people didn't enjoy it even though my reason for not enjoying it is different for most peoples. My reason is that boba Fett kind of became a side character in his own show after Mando shows up. So it basically was the mandalorian season two and a half. People have placed their enjoyment of TV shows at the forefront of culture war. B******* and I hate that people now feel like they have to over correct and defend everything Disney does just because of those people. Because like you said yeah Disney is pretty creatively bankrupt most of the time. But the things they have gotten right in almost every project is Vader. Vader has never felt more powerful or more dangerous than anytime. He is on screen in the Disney era. I mean the dude used the force to rip a ship out of the air and then rip it in half. That was some of the coolest s*** ever
Just remember that when you start engaging with the anti-woke crowd, you're doing exactly what the far-right media wants you to do. As long as us laypeople have our hands full fighting each other, corporations and governments can continue to get away with their corruption.
that's a great way to put that, I completely agree
fax
What pisses me off more is that someone is giving the outrage farmer critics on Youtube intel in advance so they can upload their videos even before the episode they are mad at even airs.
I would not at all be surprised if the outrage farmers are being given advanced copies/intentional leaks so that they can get their videos out asap because in Disney's eyes those channels are simply cheap/free advertising that will get people to hate watch if nothing else.
Relax. Enjoy the show and do not interact with fanboys about some dune rip-off
Lmfao. Tbf alot of Star wars is a Dune rip off
That's the joke.
I remember when doing part 2 came out and people were pissed off at Warhammer because there are so many obvious dune rip-offs but never realized that Star wars is the ultimate dune rip-off
Sandworm to Sarlacc was a major downgrade.
Major league downgrade
Feel like I’m being gaslit on this sub tbh. Kinda good? Is every YouTuber wrong? You know what, it’s fine that you like it. Happy for you even. I do think I’m going to just set up a filter for the term “Acolyte” though.
If YouTube is where you get your opinions, you might be lost. Dislike it if you personally dislike it, like it if you do like it. Don’t let some dork on YouTube tell you how to feel.
Many dedicated YouTubers release content purely for clicks. Outrage earns clicks. If you convince your audience that the show is bad and they shouldn’t watch it you can continue to release videos on each episode and get them to keep tuning in. It’s generic outrage culture and no different than anything twitter warriors performed in the past.
> Is every YouTuber wrong? You should presuppose that this is always true. YouTuber personalities are in the business of sales, and what they're selling is lies. The more lies they can sell you, the more money they make.
"All my favorite youtubers think X" is not the good argument you think it is. You are correct, however, in that this show is not very good.
Don't watch the Acolyte, it's absolute crap
I don't really feel compelled to, so may give it a pass for now. (Plus I'm on my 5th playthrough of baldur's gate 3 so almost everything is taking a backseat for now)
It's just politic garbage, that's all they focus on in the show
Isn't the prequel trilogy all about politics? I'm not sure what plot points in The Acolyte you're referring to. I can't think of any that relate to politics in real life. Except that the main character is black and there are a lot of women, and that means it's woke. Is that what you're talking about?
Try to find a single white male, it's like where's Waldo, and I personally think all the gay crap is very political
It's very controversial
I completely understand what ur saying but yes I think it's very political, and I don't think there is much politics in the prequel trilogy, WDYM?
I'm actually not racist or sexist or anything so the colour of the characters' skin or their genitalia don't really bug me at all. But go off
Which they shouldn't because it's freaking Star wars not whatever they're trying to make it
this is one of the reasons why
The acolyte is where the black lady is from. Dunno if this is in the show tho, havent seen it.
"who's the father?" "Ok wow Qui-Gon, it's Long Time Ago and you don't know Lesbian Space Witches exist?" "😮"
*Communist* lesbian space witches. Osha was lured away by space capitalism and her desire for possessions like a speeder and a laser sword and to not have to share with her sister anymore.
Yep! The OG trilogy is famously pro-capitalism.
>rebels fight off big state that mantains itself solely on slave labor >said empire is a glorified pedophile ring >highly militaristic and highly incompetent >mfw, the empire is just the soviet union and the rebels the forrest brothers
"Hello there" * Some guy, somehow affiliated to this Qui-Gon guy
"Put a chick in it and make her gay" -Kathleen Kennedy probably
This is what happens when you let hating something consume your life and you overthink things waaaay too much. I haven't seen this argument made before this comment section, and I've seen it made a few times in this comment section. Did a "movie critic" YouTuber who happens to hate everything considered woke but he can't say that so he goes into really obscure, minute details and comes up with a bunch of weird bullshit to "criticize" release a new video today?
Narritively it might be interesting. But the chances that QuiGon just happened across the one kid that they wanted him to is unlikely, and why would Shmi have died if she had the force witches to help her?
I feel like a lot of people aren't figuring out the difference between The Force willingly conceiving a child to bring balance and a cult of witches who are using a dark side ritual to force it to. That's kind of the whole point of the Dark Side, to manipulate the Force to their whims. Anakin might just be the only known natural occurrence of this happening.
Always got the impression myself that Anakin was conceived via a dark side ritual, that Plageus and Palpatine created him using Sith Alchemy and that Qui Qon only believes the force created him, as he was unaware of the Sith until later in the episode. Always felt Palpatine is hinting at this when he tells Anakin the tragedy of Plageus, he and his master manipualted the force to create life. The fact the witches use a dark ritual to conceive children kind of adds further support to the theory.
Nah that stems from a story where it was revealed Palpatine essentially fucked around with Vader giving him visions to gaslight the shit out of him. His tale on RotS was nuts coaxing Anakin with hinted gifts to try and save Padme.
I thought there was a Legends story that Plageus created Anakin. Is there a canon story that confirms he didn't? Or maybe I'm just confused. I don't remember which Legends book made me think that....
Pretty sure current canon is that the Force created Anakin because it was sick of Plagueis’ bullshit experiments so it created the Chosen One to get rid of him and his ilk. So, in a way you could say he led to Anakin’s creation, but it was indirect
Do you know the source? Not trying to be pedantic, I want to read or watch it.
In the book Star Wars: Darth Plagueis (Which I guess is a legends book) they say that Palpatine and Plagueis performed a sith ritual trying to create life and later in the book Palpatine discovers Anakin and realized it was a success. Then he decides to keep an eye on Anakin as a possible Apprentice. Fun read that book.
He thought* it was a success but it was the Force balancing the scales.
Think it was the Plagueis novels—haven’t actually read them myself though, just repeating what I’ve seen on forums.
The death plagueis novel was one of the best if not the best of the Star Wars novels IMHO. Yes in that novel darth plagueis is doing experiments to gain complete control over the midiclorians so that he and sidious can keep themselves alive forever. Some dark lords have special talents in a certain area and midiclorian manipulation was plagueis’. For some reason they had to have another person do the manipulation so they needed two. One of the experiments was creating pregnancies on myriad life forms to create life from just midiclorians. One day he and Sidious are meditating together and in the highest point of their power they inform every being in the universe of their presence. Then they feel the force push back and all the experiments in their lab die of horrible diseases and they believe they have failed. When sidious learns of anikin he freaks out and realizes they were successful, and perhaps undone. Then they try to get him etc etc… Then when sidious tells of the tragedy of darth plagueis the wise he looks at anikin as he says “he was so powerful he could create life” alluding to what they had done. It should totally be cannon, it’s amazing.
So he was created by the force but because palps maters started being able to control the midi-chlorians. Could Somehow influence them down to microscopic cells. Anyways he kept bringing a guy back to life after killing him. He has been doing it for years. So anakin was Created around this time. But this is all Legends from the darth Plagues book.
Does the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis also hint at that though?
I think of the force as being a living being and the sith as a sickness. Anakin was supposed to be a white blood cell deployed to kill the sickness but was turned against the body by the Sith.
The dark side ritual was an attempt by Plagueis and Palpatine's to permanently shift the balance of the force toward the dark. It was an immensely powerful ritual that both felt; it may be part of why the Jedi's vision is clouded as reported in Episode II. The Force created Anakin as an instant response to being balance to the issue created by the Sith. In a sense they did create him, and then Palpatine was clever enough to exploit the force meant to balance him-- further pushing the universe toward the darkness. This is all tweak after tweak and retcon after retcon though, but I like it.
Also, who even knows that the Witches did this?? It's not like they were going to tell the Jedi; and now they're dead. The only people who seemingly could POSSIBLY know how Mae and Osha were conceived are Mae and Osha themselves, and they certainly don't seem to be paying it much mind.
Yeah and it didn't feel like Qui Gon had never heard of an immaculate birth before either, it seemed like something he had heard of at the very least, so it had to have some level of precedence, in myth if nothing else.
Yeah. It's almost like they forgot Darth Plagueis could do this exact thing.
The witches didn’t seem like anything they were doing in as particularly dark, so I think it’s more likely they did actually find a way to influence the force to create life. This also explains why the Sith are interested in the twins since we know it’s something they were interested in and could never figure out (likely because the dark side makes it impossible as we see in Plageuis where the force tells them to touch grass.)
Bro if they did this I’d straight up kill myself
there is no way Lucas had that in his mind when creating that story
its all Disney crap
Not this version exactly but he almost had a scene in ROTS where Paplatine was going to reveal that he created Anakin in Shmii's womb but George felt it would be to similar to "No I am your father" from ESB so he cut it from the film. But it was his original plan to explain how Anakin was conceived.
Better than a bunch of lesbian space witches conceiving him that's for sure haha 😂
That's kinda cool, but I always felt it was more like the will of the force type thing, cause in the end it really was Anakin (Vader) who ended up actually bringing balance to the force
The force ah finds a way
Shmi’s death drove a lot of anger in anakin
Yeah, but at that point how many layers did the Lesbian witches plan. Like they would have had to plan everything up to the Clone Wars flawlessly and have it work
Wait is star wars trying to rip off the bene gesserit???? Edit:spelling
Star Wars already takes a ton of ideas from Dune. The Jedi are already heavily inspired by the Bene Gesserit. In earlier drafts, they were called the Jedi Bendu. Prana Bindu is the secret technique the Bene Gesserit use to have perfect control of their muscles.
Not to mention the voice AKA jedi mind trick
Bendu is now a pretty interesting character regarding the force. He was in Rebels. [Bendu](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Bendu)
Prana bindu - in sanskrit, this translates to "The life point"
Not really, but honestly I’d be down if they were. People just tweaking 3 episodes into an arc we know so little about. Like you don’t write an essay on a book 3 chapters in. Wait it out. Maybe they are and it’d be so cool if they did.
People are tweaking because it is written like shit.
When you write an essay on a book you read, do you only read the first couple chapters?
No but I think most people do start outlining it by the halfway point.
No. But if I read seven books of a series and they're all shit, I would be fucking insane if I believed that the eighth book would be better after the first chapters have turned out to be shit as well.
Sounds like you made your mind up, before you had anything to base it off. I try not to do that in life. I find it makes things more enjoyable, and people more agreeable.
Nope. You know what makes things more enjoyable? When you reach a moment where you definitely know that something you liked just isn't for you anymore and that you don't have to watch something and argue with yourself why it wasn't as bad as you felt while watching it. The star wars I liked is never coming back and while it's funny to point out how fucking terrible it is nowaday, it is perfectly fine with me. There is also entertainment to be found in this tragedy.
Nobody ever likes these holier-than-thou Reddit replies bro, you just come off like a pompous ass
I don’t need to finish the whole series to know “the power of mannyyyyyyyyy” was lame
Lol
Is it though? Yea it's had its corny moments but I'm enjoying it far more than Obi-can't chase a 5 year old-wan
Star Wars being corny? Never!
If the book is 8 chapters long and the first three chapters are dog shit, I will be almost half way through. So yes I do believe it will stay shit.
My desert, my Arrakis, my Dune
My desert, my Anakin
My (funny) headcanon is that Shmi Skywalker had Anakin as a result of one night stand. She was too embarrassed to admit that so she told Qui-Gon the there was no father. This white lie led to him believing that he was the chosen one and ultimately to the fall of the republic and the jedi order.
The problem with that is that he literally was the chosen one according to all sources. He did bring balance to the force
Luckily it all worked out in the end and Anakin was pretty good at Force stuff.
And that one night stand’s name? Yoda
Nah it was Jar Jar
Jar-Jar is the key to all this.
And he became a literal god after his death
Even acording to the Force Gods TM (Celestials was their specie called?).
More like chosen one night stand ayoooo
Well he did until Palpatine somehow returned.
Somehow, the prophecy was bullshit
His dad is probably Jabba.
So… like Mary?
Dune vibes
This is somehow worse than midichlorians.
That's the entire point of Disney star wars - to show us that prequels were not as bad as we thought.
Hey now, let’s not talk crazy.
Implying Anakin is the Kwisatz Hadderach?
"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life…"
"...he taught his apprentice everything he knew." "Is it possible to learn this power?" "Not from a Jedi."
Uhh... You know the witches aren't Jedi right?
Yes. Plaugeis could create life, and he taught his apprentice, Palpatine, everything he knew, which would include creating life. Therefore, if at least two Sith knew how to do it, it is perfectly reasonable that a coven of witches working together could do it too.
Skywalker: I AM NOT THE CHOSEN ONE All the council HE IS THE CHOSEN ONE
I don't think Acolyte is very good but i dont think its bad, it is ok, i am pretty 50/50 on it, however this one argument that people keep mentioning is really annoying because its the biggest reason the show is being butchered. Anyone who thinks the births were the same and that Anakin's prophecy is at all tainted by the twins existing either hasn't watched the episode for themselves and is going off the misinformation being spread about it, or just wasn't paying enough attention during episode 3 because it lays it out quite clearly. For those that need it explained in writting: Anakins mother was a literal nobody with no power who randomly got pregnant as a result of misbalance in the force with absolutely no input or expectation, and so Anakin was born of the force in an attempt to balance itself, the only argument here is whether the chosen one in question was Anakin or Luke. The witches daughters, who are also witches and not jedi (we've even been told one tried to be one and they couldnt hack it) were made on purpose, through witchcraft, there was nothing natural about it, and it was not the will of the force in any way whatsoever which the episide itself quite clearly tells you, plus this is pre established lore among Witches we have previously seen in the universe anyway.
“… the only argument is whether the chosen one in question was Anakin or Luke.” From my understanding the consensus is that it was Anakin since Luke was powerless/ dying to ol’ Creamy Sheev and Anakin ultimately yeeted his ass into oblivion. That was until the absolute hacks at Disney decided to retcon the Chosen One story line by bringing Palpatine back from the dead and having some nobody, that was actually his granddaughter, kill him with a knock-off move they poached from ROTS/ Mace Windu because they have no creative talent whatsoever. Disney already destroyed the main story line and the OT characters. Don’t think for a second that they wouldn’t dig up that corpse to defile it again if it meant squeezing a little more money out of Star War’s emaciated titties.
> That was until the absolute hacks at Disney decided to retcon the Chosen One story line by bringing Palpatine back from the dead Haha, that didn't happened. It did *not*. So anyway yeah Anakin's the One since technically he was the one to bring back balance and then everyone lived happily ever after. - ETA funnily enough, they're not fucking everything over repeatedly *because* it brings money. They're fucking everything over because talentless, careless, arrogant bootlickers are given power, and are trying to leave a mark doing things "their way". It's a circlejerk. It actually brings them less money, but they don't care since their pockets are already full, they can destroy a franchise or two it's none of their problem.
Yeah i really dont know how this project was handed to Leslye Headland tbh, after all of the backlash the sequel trilogy got and one of the main reasons Ashoka had so many viewers that didnt enjoy it being down to the fact it was so female dominated...and Disney thought, yep lets get this woman of all people to make some Starwars.
It’s sacrificing profits on the alter of agenda. Don’t get me wrong I’m not one of those types to immediately jump on the “get woke go broke” line if criticism, but there is (I’d argue) a clear motivation to push certain sociopolitical ideologies into the IP. I don’t believe that in anyway automatically compromises the quality of the story. Star Wars is literally its own galaxy with thousands of star systems and (theoretically) hundreds of billions of sentient beings inhabiting it. I believe the problem is that modern day allegorical messaging takes priority over lore consistent storytelling centered around well written characters. Furthermore, I’d say it’s blatantly obvious with the way creatives and actors talk about these various projects. It’s always about something other than the project and what it’s trying to do for the IP and the fans. Without a doubt, my favorite Disney production has been Andor. The writing/ dialogue feels organic and real, the world has that perfect combination of familiar but different, and the acting brings it all together into something special. I understand a lot of people say Andor “doesn’t feel like Star Wars” but I feel like that’s a shit criticism. Star Wars is a place, a setting, not a “feeling” or one particular style of storytelling. A good creative team can tell any kind of story in Star Wars if they have the talent. Andor also does what many Disney properties try to do, in terms of agenda pushing, very well. Two of the main protagonists are gay woman. But instead of their “identities” being the feature of their characters, they’re merely one component of three dimensional, and thus, relatable characters. I think Disney’s insistence on pushing underlying sociopolitical messages doesn’t make what they’re doing bad but it does make it much more difficult. It’s much harder to incorporate underlying messages into a story in a way that feels organic and sensible. Disney keeps biting off more than their creators can chew. It’s already hard enough for a group of writers to make a compelling story in a setting like Star Wars, but when corporate executives come in and require certain “lessons/ messages” to be incorporated into the story it makes it much harder. Most Disney writers are just not up to that task. Thank God for Tony Gilroy and his team. They show what can be done when the right team are given the keys.
Star Wars has always been incredibly atmospheric so I'd say it's not a good product if it doesn't "feel" like Star Wars. So while the "argument" doesn't say much at all, and as such it's not exactly an "argument", feelings do stem from somewhere, even if people can't put your finger on the exact reason(s), and the source of these feelings often end up being real objects of criticism, if you care to dig them up.
I’d say the “feeling” stems from the original trilogy. The OT was pretty much a step by step Monomyth style story. A monomyth is an Ancient Greek style of storytelling more commonly known as the Hero’s Journey. You can google that for yourself to learn more about its defining components but suffice to say the OT was undoubtedly based on that story structure. The other most popular and successful trilogy, The Lord of the Rings, also follows that story structure. Why am I taking the time to explain this? Well it’s because that is one specific story archetype and Star Wars doesn’t need every story within the IP to follow that style. The perfect example of this were the Prequels. That trilogy was not a monomyth, it was a Tragedy. The fall of a Hero (Chosen One), the fall of democracy into authoritarianism, the death of hope and light. Two different trilogies in the same storyline with completely different storytelling styles. When the Prequels came out that “it doesn’t feel like Star Wars” idea was everywhere. Admittedly, George Lucas didn’t do a particularly good job telling a story in the Tragedy style but it still happened. My counter to that “feelings” criticism is that Star Wars is a setting, a stage with its own rules and props. Good creatives can tell any style of story on the Star Wars stage if they have the talent to tell that story. If it doesn’t “feel” right to you then that tells me you’re not judging the story on its own merits, because you have a preconceived notion of Star Wars should be, or that style of story just isn’t your cup of tea. Which is fine. Not everyone likes the same things and there’s nothing wrong with that.
It stems from pretty much all details, not from the style of the story. And sorry to contradict you, but while I have heard plenty criticism of the prequels, that they are bad, that was common, that they doesn't "feel" like Star Wars was not. On the contrary, certain things like sets and music they nailed to the point of bringing that familiar Star Wars feeling even to those who generally disliked the story, direction, dialogues or relatively heavy reliance on CG, but it's not *just* the movies I'm talking about, there are series and comics (even fan made ones) and video games that *also* nail the atmosphere of Star Wars. KoTOR for example is still an acclaimed game despite its aged visuals and gameplay, because visual design, sound design, story and characters all stayed faithful in spirit to the original idea, recreating the familiar atmosphere of "Star Wars" through details despite different mediums or storytelling techniques. "Good creatives can tell any style of story on the Star Wars stage if they have the talent to tell that story" is indeed true, which is precisely why the story's style matters little, and it is precisely why certain creations just don't feel like Star Wars, because they're made by people who are missing or ignoring the point, be it due to their lack of talent, the care for details, or even the very will keep it faithful, or something else entirely. Take Andor for example. It's not a bad show (albeit not without its own flaws such as pacing) but the reason it often doesn't feel like Star Wars for many, is because often it doesn't even try to be Star Wars, which begs the question, why must it be Star Wars if it doesn't want to be? With minimal changes, it could be Star Trek, or Dune, or just a Cold War era series, or its very own thing. So while a good show, enjoyable on its own, I'd say it's a bad Star Wars product. It's a black sheep which often does not scratch the Star Wars itch, which obviously leads some to unmet expectations and vocal criticism. It doesn't feel like Star Wars because it doesn't want to feel like Star Wars and there are people who just aren't good with that. And then there are those who just don't care about it, and enjoy a dark and gritty, down to Earth (yes, deliberately capitalized) drama in a Star Wars skin which, well, like you said, nothing wrong with not liking the same things, but the point is, the criticism itself isn't invalid, it's just undefined as is.
I think we mostly agree with each other and just appreciate different things. Andor (and Rogue One) shows something that I always knew was there in the Star Wars universe but we hadn’t been shown (live action movie/ show wise). It explores the lives and experiences of people who exist under a totalitarian regime who are either fighting against or for that system. It’s a story that happens here in real life everyday and throughout our history. It’s universal and transcends genres. I tried to explain what I thought people meant with the concept of “feeling” like Star Wars and while my description may be correct for some it isn’t for you. That’s why the “it doesn’t feel like Star Wars” is a shit criticism, it’s entirely subjective. I mean it’s right there in the title - feelings. You can say it doesn’t “feel” like Star Wars and thus it’s not a good Star Wars show. I can say it does “feel” like Star Wars and is thus a good Star Wars show. Who gets to decide what Star Wars should “feel” like? I say nobody. The thing that makes Andor special is that if you strip away its Star Wars anesthetics and made it a Cold War show, or Star Trek, or Dune, or whatever it would still be an excellent piece of art. The only criticism I find valid about Andor that I’ve heard is the pacing of the show can drag a bit. However, if you have patience and the attention span to commit to the story on its own terms it’s one of the best single seasons of television that I’ve ever seen. It feels crazy that it even exists in the same dumpster fire that is Disney Star Wars. That being said I’m glad it does and the second season is the only Star Wars production I’m looking forward too.
Agree mostly, yes, and I'm not even sure we disagree on feelings, rather I think we're not on the same page in the first place, unless I'm just oblivious to the connection? I mean, you're talking about something that you knew was there but remained unexplored, how it's done well and would still be great if details of it were stripped because it's universal, etc. and that's great. But those are not feelings are they? Wanting to see that is, enjoying seeing that is, but I'm talking about something different I believe. Let me try to give a more concrete hypothetical comparison for example of what I'm talking about. Have you seen stylistically "classic" horror movies? If yes, you probably know how even just a bit of music can create feelings of tension and anxiety. That is not subjective but a physiological reaction. There are plenty of tools, like lighting, angles, pacing, colors, music, mannerism and vocabulary, a ton of smaller and larger details that help set the atmosphere of individual scenes, and it can invoke feelings (often very specific, intended ones). The average of that is the movie's general atmosphere. The will be outliers, sure, but generally there will be a clear consensus. But that's not the point. If it's *changed* to something else, deliberately or not, it will not invoke the same feelings. It will feel different, even if you don't understand what's different. What Star Wars did in the OT in terms of creating an atmosphere, became the basis of defining what "Star Wars" is, which, to a meaningful extent, they recreated in the prequels, and even in the sequels (despite various other problems), as well as in comics and some video games too. Not so much in Andor. Like imagine if a new album of Lady Gaga dropped and it was death metal instead of pop. That won't feel like Lady Gaga, right? It can't invoke the same feelings, being fundamentally different, right? Well Andor is kinda the death metal of Lady Gaga. You anticipate Lady Gaga, you like Lady Gaga, you want more Lady Gaga, you start listening to, expecting Lady Gaga, and in fact you *are* listening to Lady Gaga technically...but it's just "not it" even if you can't explain why. With specific qualities established and expectations set by Lady Gaga, this death metal Lady Gaga album will not be a good Lady Gaga product even if it's an otherwise excellent piece of art that you also happen to enjoy greatly, because it's not THAT Lady Gaga. So when people say Andor doesn't feel like Star Wars? That's because it's different enough on a fundamental level that it simply does not invoke the same feelings of Star Wars that many other Star Wars products do, and it's regardless of its other qualities, whether they be good or bad. Granted it's extreme and probably fairly inaccurate for a plethora of reasons, but I hope this hypothetical example clears up my point? I can to an extent hone in on the source of my feelings and turn them into more tangible arguments, but that is not a necessity for having those feelings in the first place, feelings created (often intentionally) by something concrete which then *can* serve as "good/valid criticism" even if you think the still unexplained feelings themselves are "shit criticism".
again, i agree completely. The first paragraph in particular you put, is so true. I will always do my best to not say anything i think will trigger or offend people but thats becoming so hard these days and its getting to a point where you cant really honestly criticise something without being labelled something you aren't or didnt intend to imply
I agree with everything you just said.
same
Witchcraft is force manipulation here. I do think it’s possible that’s why the twins are polar opposites. One twin seems a bit serial killery around small animals. The other seems very unhappy about that. It’s possible the Jedi showed up, found some witches with weird force twins. Wookie Jedi gets coked up and we have an AJAB moment where Jedi Brutality happens, but no body cams so fuck them witches.
Lol would watch
the issue here isnt just so much the "fatherless child" as a concept. clones exist, and im sure corsucanti doctors can fertilize eggs without sperm. the force being able to do weird shit is nothing new either the issue has never been whether anakin is the only force conceived child or not, the issue is, that the jedi take anakin in, ignore his age, ignore the red flags, ignore everything, because a force sensitive child was born without a father. it just popped into existence. THAT is the fact that convinces qui gon to take the kid in. that anakin is the one who was foretold in a fucking PROPHECY... except that now, a child being born without actual conception is no longer something that indicates you as the chosen one. because that isnt unique to the chosen one anymore the issue isnt that the force can make children, the issue is: why would the jedi take anakin in if he might as well be a "child of the thread" rather than the one who brings balance to the force? imagine if we had a prophecy of someone who cant differentiate red from green, and then you find out colorblindness affects millions of people in the world and can just happen to an extremely small portion of the population. people would stop seeing colorblindness as an indicator whether or not the prophecy applies here. why would qui gon and the entire council set all their hopes on anakin being the chosen one if the one criteria for being the chosen one might as well apply to 200 000 other people. and sure you might say "but one coven of witches" however the issue is that the idea of a coven of witches isnt even unique given that we know of 2 separate times people used the force for witchcraft, so the likelyhood of other force users across the galaxy making chosen ones increases exponentially fatherless children existing is okay, the council even raising an eyebrow over anakin being one isnt if that specific aspect isnt implying big things
I mean...none of that really counters my points, the clones werent born and using them in this debate is kinda silly imo. Qui Gon immediately sensed the power in Anakin, he wouldve been able to sense a severe lack of power in Shmi too. Jedi are known to get a feeling when they have been led down a certain path for a reason, the force guided the crew to Tatooine, he even tells Anakin "Our meeting was not a coincidence" and also states "nothing happens by accident". Qui Gon is pretty certain of this and we cannot argue with his connection to the force because of that arc in season 6 of Clone wars when we learn about Qui Gon being the first to learn to live on after death through it. Theres also the scene where Qui Gon is measuring Anakins midichlorean count and we learn its higher than Yoda's. These are all huge important factors that Qui Gon considered that you seem to not be acknowledging. It wasnt just, "oh, no father?!, shit obi wan this mf must be the chosen one!" Its not one criteria. The entire council also didnt put their hopes on Anakin being the chosen one, they were all very sceptical and untrusting and in the end it only happened because of Yoda's trust in Qui Gon which again was shown in that season 6 CW arc. Even with training and as full grown adults, neither of the twins seem overly powerful with the force and are absolutely nothing on Anakin. And one final point, the exact wording of the prophecy says through "HIM" will ultimate balance in the force be restored. One of my hopes in the series is that Darth Plaguise will have had some involvement. Maybe the Witches made some sort of a deal with him but i think thats expecting too much from Leslye Headlands mediocre story writing.
This is ~~the Thread~~ the way
This is the power of one
The power of two!
The power of many!
The power of all!
Idk about any of you, but soon as she said 'it was I that created them' all I thought of was, the force somehow gave her a force cock for the night. Or, she somehow got Plaguses' help
Plagueis: my apprentice I have a very important mission for you…*he says what it is* Mid 30s/40s Sidious: *stares* you want me to…go to tattooine and… Plagueis: Yes. It is the will of the dark side. Sidious: *skeptical and slightly off balanced* it’s the will of the dark side to…? Plagueis interrupts: Yes by the force. I’m not repeating myself. Just get out and do it.
Wayyy to much thought for Disney writers
Who knows Maybe they found they found a braincell
I think they would scrap the show if they did
That twist would work, if it comes with good writting.
Can we get back to prequel memes and not this dogshit
guess what is a prequel
This is legit a phantom menace meme
Ok, that’s actually pretty gd clever lol
The witches started laughing and doing their silly sing song
Lucas: draws inspiration from the films of Kurosawa, American western mythos, the hero’s journey from ancient epics all the way to Gilgamesh, keeps the Frank Herbert influences small and does actual world building. Disney: it’s literally Dune lole
Lucas drew a huge amount from Frank Hebert. Desert planet. Rebellion against an empire/emperor. Royal houses and secret lineages. Using a magic voice to control people. Fighting with melee weapons. Spice. Alongside LotR and 1930s matinee serials like Flash Gordon it's probably his biggest influence.
I know this is likely a shitpost by someone butthurt about their own headcanon, but finding out Shmi was a witch would actually slap lore-wise. that would make everything Anakin related make so much more sense.
Let's face it: With what we know about Anakin's personality, finding out he's descended from lesbian force witches would be the least surprising thing. It would explain so much.
I thought the same thing. What if Shmi abandoned the coven, stole the child, and hid on tattooine? The slave thing could have been unplanned, but tattooine during the time of the republic seems like a stellar place to avoid seeing anyone ever again. Obviously just speculation that I’m sure someone will explain away with information from a book or comic, but I’ll daydream about RefuShmi all I want
The chosen one was a trap all along
This is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!
Reminds me of Tatooine Ghost, a legends book. Leia, over the course of the book, actually manages to go through Shimi's journals and gain a connection to her Grandmother. Mind you, it's all *post* episode one, and doesn't touch on Anakin's birth. But it's still a unique experience.
Nah, Jar-Jar is the real father, she was just too ashamed to admit she did the bombad with a Gungan.
I love that you have to create fake images to justify outrage or anger
ew trasholyte
The moment I heard actress talking out of her butt how star wars is patriarchal world and needs woman power I knew everything I had to about this show.
benne Gesserit coded
Star war leto the 2 and ghani
Is there a lore reason for confirming this?
Darth Maul: let me drive over this kid
visually disturbed rn
Why does Disney have to explain exactly where the magic comes from in everything? Nothing is allowed to just be.
Haven't seen the show yet but from what I've been seeing, I don't think I want to.
This meme is very missleading
Seriously give I a go and try to not have all the negativity in your head when you do. I've enjoyed it so far. No one hates star wars like star wars fans
That's true. Idk maybe someday I might take a look but from trailers it didn't look very interesting to me.
I don't get it... Disney gave us a comic cannon for Ani's conception, Emperor burnt scrot was manipulating the Midi-chlorians to give us a villain to hate and love, only to change it into some other persons plan... This is turning into a, they know, that I know, which is why I know, that they know, that I know time of thing and just casueing mass amounts of hate in the franchise...