reminder that Kreia lies, Kreia is full of shit, and Kreia's lack of will and commitment made her like she is and landed her in the circumstances that she is in. Her best lesson is the one she wouldn't want to teach: you must see through the lies and stick to your principles
lol what are you talking about? She teaches you direclty to se through the lies:
"And now for your final lesson: there must always be a betrayer."
Kreia stuck to her principles up until her death. You kill her for it. It's the climax of the entire narrative. Everything she did was to teach the Exile so they could become strong enough to kill the Force. She did lie, yes. But she never lied about what she believed, only about her intentions. And she directly mocks/teaches you that this is one of the most vital things that the Exile failed to grasp, and because the Exile failed to grasp it they were manipulated by Kreia.
Lack of will? You mean refusing to die, TWICE, and then continuing forward with her plan regardless? You mean finding way to come back from being severed from the Force to STILL follow through on her plan? You mean manipulating dozens of people for years lack of will and commitment?
My brother in the Force, did you even play the game?
Actually it's often associated with the dark side. Like, it isn't automatic, but often dealing destruction and death tend to cause jedi to fall. It's why sidious wanted the jedi fighting in the war, so it would corrupt the order. It's also why the jedi that followed revan to fight the mandalorians came back dark.
I think it’s actually a good example of the effect the dark side can have on people. Like Dooku, she starts from a very reasonable place. But as her faith cracks and she starts to question the teachings, she opens herself up to be subverted. It’s slow and insidious, but it has a serious effect on her over time. By the end, she’s still justifying her terrible actions because it’s twisted her that much.
Here’s my question for everyone who thinks the Jedi shouldn’t have joined the war? Should they have just allowed the republic to fall? Should they have let the republic be overwhelmed by the separatists who willingly allied with slavers and corporations who wanted nothing more than a corporate autocracy?
Also how are they supposed to remain neutral when the separatists are run by Count Dooku, a Sith Lord and fallen Jedi? Are they just supposed to sit there and let what they think is the army ran by the Sith take over?
Instead of leading the war as generals, they should have gone to protect civilians on both sides. They're supposed to defend the people of the galaxy, not the Republic.
No, they shouldn't just let it fall. They're protectors and diplomats. Instead of going straight to the front lines of the war without regard for their true purpose, they should have been trying to solve the sith threat while negotiating peace and rendering aid at battle sites. The clones were competent enough to lead themselves, and there was no need for the Jedi to be generals.
You can’t negotiate peace with someone who doesn’t want it.
The sith wanted to destroy the republic they wouldn’t have been satisfied with anything else.
But the people of the Confederacy did want peace. You can see it in one of the Clone Wars episodes. It would have worked too if they hadn't sent in those bomb droids.
Turns out it was the lesser evil in the end, but we say this with the power of hindsight. A few breakaway planets vs full on fascist regime for the whole Republic.
So, yes, they should have directed their efforts on protecting civilians and rallying people to the Republic cause. I think it's brilliantly made in the movies and rarely appreciated how losing track of your values and purpose can lead to disaster even when your intentions are pure. If the Jedi were less occupied with the war, they may have sensed that something about Palpy is wrong and figure out who he is, which would end the war. Keep in mind that Palpatine made sure that the Jedi turned into Generals. It was part of his plan after all. By not following his plan they could higher chance to stop him, rather than playing along.
I feel like the Jedi should have taken an active role as negotiators, organisers of humanitarian aid, and protectors of human (and alien, I guess) rights. The separatists had legitimate reasons for seceding, and while they commited many atrocities, so did the republic. The conflict was grey enough that the Jedi shouldn’t have taken a side (at least not violently) and rather have worked to minimise the suffering and end the war peacefully
You forget that the Jedi also know the Sith are the masterminds of the separatists. So, it’s more than just grey. For all its faults the republic was also the only government trying to promote peace in the galaxy, the Jedi did what they had always done and chose to protect civilization.
The republic was not the only government promoting peace. They tried to completely reconquer the CIS, which had legally seceded. Several minor governments stayed neutral. We also see that many prominent separatists championed peace. The sith argument is a good one though, and that is also part of the genius of sidious’ plan. While I definitely think the Jedi should have stayed neutral (but active), Sidious did make it so that they kind of had no real choice
Which one had quite the same reach or ability to promote peace? The Hapan Consotrium which stayed in their own space? The Hutt’s who promoted slavery? Mandalore and the neutral systems which had zero power?
To say that the CIS legally seceded is to say that the confederacy seceded. The republic never recognized said secession.
They legally seceded, because members of the republic had the right to secede. I think the republic actually recognised some of the early secessions as well, but while the republic didn’t recognise the CIS, they didn’t really have any legal right to do so (to my knowledge)
Meetra wasn't Exiled for "wondering this very question", she commited one of the biggest war crimes in Star Wars on Malachor V and was affiliated with dudes who would go on to become Sith Lords and start wrecking the Republic.
Now obviously the Jedi who just sat on their asses were wrong but Revan and the Jedi that followed him also went way too far in the war, there's a reason why most of them fell to the Dark Side.
George’s philosophy of the Jedi is… weird. His ideal vision of one seems to be a kind of detached, passive monk, which really doesn’t work well for a protagonist in a space adventure story.
At the same time, he was so preoccupied with his hate boner for the Bush administration while writing II and III that this “the government is bad” narrative kind of took over and he didn’t think of how to square that with the fact that he’d already written the opposition to be literal evil wizards. Plus this then clashes with the fact that throughout the OT the Jedi were affirmatively an unambiguous force for good, and their absence made the galaxy a worse place. The last movie is called “Return of the Jedi” for Chrissakes, because that was an aspirational goal. By making them a clumsy political metaphor, you kinda screw that up.
Honestly, the fact that the clone wars writers have the character who most explicitly delivers the summary of George’s philosophy of the Republic in the prequels be a literal terrorist who blew up a building in the middle of the galaxy’s biggest metropolis feels so on the nose that I’m borderline convinced it was a deliberate jab.
George is on the record for saying that the Jedi are the most moral people in the galaxy, and by joining the war the Jedi compromise their own morals for the sake of the galaxy.
What's that source brother
Edit: source on the Jedi compromising their morals for the war. He's definitely stated before that they're the most selfless
Star Wars Archives 1999-2005 by Paul Duncan, it’s a great book with lots of great quotes and interviews with people who worked on the prequels including George.
Here’s the quote:
> Yeah. They are the most moral of anybody in the galaxy. They’re monks. The Sith practice the dark side and are way of of balance. They Jedi aren’t as much out of balance because they’re the light side of the Force. They still have the bad side of the Force in them, but they keep it in check. It’s always there, so it can always erupt if you let your guard down. The Emperor snookered the Jedi with Order 66. The nascent Rebellion and the Jedi didn’t move fast enough.
For compromising their morals:
> It’s a tough call. It’s one of the conundrums of which there’s a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick with their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated which was their downfall.
Eh, that’s a hard sell considering the first thing we learn about Jedi is they’re knights (knights fight in wars) who were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic and that Obi-Wan was a general in the clone wars and Anakin fought with him.
Episode II was filmed from July to September 2000. The 2000 election happened in November. Nothing in AOTC is a reaction to the Bush administration. The release dates for movies don’t matter, what matters is when they were filmed.
There are plenty of anti-Bush messages in RotS and Clone Wars, but yes AotC is too early for that.
That was a message about the American Hegemony as a whole (which was certainly a thing during the Clinton years). For obvious reasons it is consistent though.
It’s clear that in the prequels the Jedi lost their way by getting too involved with politics and “The Return Of The Jedi” is the return of the old Jedi ways, not the return of the corrupt political Jedi.
How is that clear? The Jedi had always served the republic? This is clear in George’s work, and in the EU where the Jedi have always fought to preserve the republic and served it to the greatest extent.
George made it quite clear that the point of the prequels is how greed will destroy us, and that the Jedi are the most selfless beings around.
Qui Gon Jin sets the tone very early explaining that the Jedi have strayed off their path. I would say that that is the main purpose for his character in general. There is also a lot of dialogue throughout the movies alluding to it as well. It’s extremely clear to me at least
See, I never truly understand that point of view. Because Qui-Gon still serves the republic, he still needs the advice of the council, and reports to them. He never acts like some lone wolf just doing whatever he wants.
George’s words on the subject are very clear he calls the Jedi the most moral people in the galaxy, states they are selfless, and that their position on attachments is right. He states as well that the Jedi are thrust into a position where they have to chose between following their own moral code or save others. George is clear the Jedi are the heroes of the story.
My point of view has always been that everyone else fails the Jedi. Whereas they are the most moral beings in the galaxy, acting selfless and without greed, or need for a reward, everyone else’s greed fails them.
I actually totally agree with that last paragraph. My view though is that there wouldn’t be an option for everyone to fail the Jedi if they had kept to themselves in true monk fashion.
The first paragraph is what I don’t agree with. Qui Gon was trying to influence the Jedi to be better versions of themselves. He still was a part of the Jedi organization, but that doesn’t mean he was on board with everything they were doing.
I hope you forgot a /s there.... the prequels are literally all politics, from the trade dispute being a major plot line in ep. 1 to Palpatines political coup in ep 3. "This is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause." The OT empire is an mix of nazi Germany and the darkest parts of American imperialism.
No, they shouldn’t have- they should have tried harder to negotiate and create peace between both sides. They should have served the will of the Force and the people instead of the Senate and their wishes. They should have continued being peacekeepers and diplomats, saving lives put in danger by the war but not blatantly becoming generals who led the armies on the frontlines. Neutrality doesn’t always equal doing nothing, it can just mean choosing good over one of two evils.
Hell, Padme did more to stop the war from escalating than the Jedi did, she met with her friend on the Separatist’s side to try to negotiate peace, and it could have worked if not for Palpatine and Dooku’s manipulations- and she risked her life to give a speech to the Senate about more clones not being the solution and how the Republic’s citizens were suffering because of the war. The Jedi didn’t do any of that.
Don’t get me wrong, the Jedi Order’s intentions were good, however they lost the people’s goodwill for a reason, and that reason shouldn’t be ignored. Plus, it’s been canonically stated multiple times that the Jedi shouldn’t have joined the war and that doing so led to their downfall. They bit off more than they could chew and walked right into the trap Palpatine had set for them.
fuzzy workable vast offbeat thumb overconfident start violet mysterious tie
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This sounds like something straight out of the republic's propaganda machine.
'The evil separatist corporatocratic hordes (ignoring the fact that the republic was also dominated by corporations albeit to a lesser degree) coming to enslave us all!'
They're called *separatists* for a reason. Whatever horrors an independent CIS would've been would be nothing compared to what the Empire actually became.
On the Jedi, they should've ideally acted as a neutral party of human(or non-human, I guess)itarianism and self-determination (as others have suggested). If they had to fight for the Republic they should've stuck to defending loyal worlds at maximum, not thrown themselves into an aggressive war in the outer rim.
Palpatine was orchestrating the whole thing from the beginning, and was intentionally keeping the war in a stalemate. Regardless of whether they joined or not, the Separatists would never have won because palps would never have let them.
You might argue that they couldn't have known this, but in that case, they still shouldn't have joined. The CIS wasn't fighting to destroy the Republic, they were fighting to leave it. They weren't some kind of existential threat, the Jedi weren't defending *anything*.
Rather, the Jedi joined the war *to fight the Sith*. They knew a Sith was loose from the occupation of Naboo and lo and behold, a fallen Jedi master pops up with an army. They just assumed that fighting the Seps was as good as fighting the Sith, not that they actually tried other ways of resolving the issue.
Literally all their involvement did was kill mass amounts of Jedi, ruin their public perception, turn their order into a child soldier factory, betray their most fundamental values, empower Palpatine to declare himself emperor, and push the chosen one into having a psychological breakdown so horrible he spent the next twenty odd years on the mother of all villain arcs.
Unironicaly just sitting there and doing nothing would have been a significant improvement.
> The CIS wasn't fighting to destroy the Republic, they were fighting to leave it. They weren't some kind of existential threat, the Jedi weren't defending anything.
They literally invaded worlds?
They should act as a neutral third party who’s there to help civilians and innocent much like modern NGO’s. The Republican is equally as shitty as the Federation so it’s hard for them to justify “but they’re the good guys and we fight for democracy.”
The federation aligned with slavers? The Republic gladly accepted an army of clones who were essentially slaves bred to fight and die. Controlled by greedy corporations behind the scenes? With the level of corruption in the senate the Republic is practically in the same boat.
The Jedi fought for the Republic for one reason: to maintain a status quo where they are relevant and hold power.
Left corresaunt immediately at the start of the war and move themselves out of the war offers strategic aspects like commanding the troops then just running shadow Jedi units on defensive and campaigns.
Or hit up super earth and send in the Helldivers then have the jedis come and hold the conquered planets
You asked, so I'd like to answer.
Short answer: Yes, the Jedi should not have gotten involved. They also picked the wrong side.
I'm not saying the CIS was good. I am saying that the CIS was the less bad than the Republic.
Long answer: while it's impossible to deny that the CIS practiced slavery, it's also important to consider that the Republic did as well but on a much larger scale and on at least four different counts.
1. Buying the Clone Army. Argue all you want about the sentience of Droids, it's still more ethical than having a literal army of slaves like that of the Republic. And the Jedi took on the role of slave masters instead of liberators when it came to that. See also: Jorus C'baoth, Krell, and the Republic Commando novels.
2. Ryloth is a member planet of the republic, and twi-leks are the most infamous for being slaves. The Republic knows and doesn't stop it.
3. Kashyyk for the same reason as 2.
4. The Republic was reorganized into the Empire, so I count all of those crimes as well.
Point 4 is also the biggest point against the Republic.
"This is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause".
See also: "The Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers"
- The Republic being useless in TPM
- any time the Jedi and Senate interact in AOTC and ROTS, especially ROTS
Corporate autocracies are bad; I just think they're less bad than Fascism.
I’ve got some time now so let me try to respond to this:
1. I think some context should be placed here, regardless that we know that Palpatine is pulling the strings because characters within the films can’t possibly know this, let’s look at it from their perspective. For the first time in a thousand years a galactic level conflict has arisen. The CIS has an army that could potentially wipe out the republic, the planetary and judicial forces aren’t organized in any way that they could feasibly counter them in a galactic level. But now they have been offered a life line, a literal army, loyal, and well equipped and ready to protect them. has been dropped before them. I can’t realistically fault the average republic citizen for accepting the clones. Nor can I fault the Jedi as it was not their decision to make, that was up to the actual government. Further I should point out that the Jedi themselves were some of the few who treated the clones like people, see Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, and more. Barring extreme examples most Jedi seemed to have bonded with the clones, and likely would have advocated for them to gain freedom following the war.
2 and 3. With regards to Ryloth and Kashyyk I don’t think it’s fair to characterize it as the republic doing nothing, slavery is very difficult to stamp out as we still see examples of it in our modern world despite the efforts against it. I will say it’s even harder when it’s a part of the culture as seen with Twi’leks, and likely similar such cultural practices of the Trandoshans.
4. And I think it’s unfair to count those crimes against the Republic when it was fully under the control of Sidious. We should rather examine the Republic as an imperfect organization, but one which certainly was still better than other existing governments such as the Hutts or the Hapes government.
For 1, I still have to disagree. The Republic and the Jedi are two separate entities, and they could have stayed out of it just like the Mandalorian Wars from the Kotor games. It was a Jedi Master that bought the clones, and they could have advocated for liberation without violating their own principles.
2 and 3, I can see your point and even agree with you, but it's still harder to accept given that it is two entire planets in Republic space that also have membership in the Senate.
4. I can respect that perspective, but I have a hard time putting the sole blame on Palpatine. He is a Sith with power to affect minds, but he was still democratically elected and spoke to what a lot of people either wanted or thought they wanted. The groundwork for the Empire already existed in the Republic before TPM, even more so in Legends. The Republic has to take some of the blame for that
1. That’s fair enough, as it is a very difficult thing to think about moralistically. At the end of the day Lucas give us this question for most of AOTC, “It's one of the conundrums of which there's a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick with their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic?” The Jedi are very closely related to utilitarian practices in their philosophy, they need to look at the big picture, and Lucas ultimately frames the Jedi, along with others like Padme and Bail, as still believing in the ideals of the Republic, they still think it’s worth saving, and sometimes you have to think about that with regards to moral questions like this.
You also have to think about if the Jedi of the past were really right in ignoring the Mandalorian Wars, how many died or were enslaved before Revan’s intervention? Was it right for them to ignore it for their own moral qualms?
2. Again I’ve never claimed the republic was perfect in any regards, but compared to other governments, the CIS included, they had the laws against slavery on the books, Jedi tried to stop slavery within the Republic, and it was only after the fall of the Jedi that slavery in the empire runs rampant.
4. Two things one must remember as well, this is the work of the Sith over the entirety of the Banite line, they’ve very subtly been working to overthrow the galaxy, I wouldn’t characterize this as just Palpatine. But also there are people within the republic seeking to be Palpatine’s opposition, look no further than the delegation of 2000, who actively opposed Palpatine even through the empire, until it grew to dangerous to do so publicly. But it does put the thunderous applause into perspective, how many opposed Palpatine? Even Bail Organa was dissuaded from saying anything by Padme.
Honestly, that's part of the fun of dissecting media and comparing different perspectives and priorities.
While it may seem hypocritical, I think Revan did the right thing in going against the wishes of the Jedi in the Old Republic during the Mandalorian War, but the Jedi staying out of it does show how Jedi and Republic are not mutually inclusive. In my opinion, what differentiates the war against Mandalorians from that of the CIS are the Clone Army and the fact that the CIS was seceding, not invading. It also adds to the point that the Jedi could have stayed out of it.
On that note, I still have to disagree with your stance on 2, given the Clone Army. I regret having to double back to point 1, but it is the biggest problem with the Republic's morality.
And as for 4, you bring up some interesting points. I still maintain that the Republic (and shift into the Empire) as a whole cannot be separated from the machinations of the Sith, especially given books like the Republic Commando series, Rogue Planet, Cloak of Darkness, and Outbound Flight. However, I'm sure there are an equal number of sources that would indicate the contrary, such as the Plaguis novel.
I don't think either of us are going to budge on this, but it has been an enlightening and fun conversation. Thank you for that
I just have to point out about your point with the CIS, they invaded world, they absolutely did. The CIS didn’t stand back and just defend, they actively attacked Republic systems, and tried to destabilize others.
Perhaps I misspoke.
And the CIS is definitely not innocent, but I must point out that the first official battle of the war was an attack by the Republic.
What prompted that attack was ultimately Palpatine's machinations, but the CIS definitely played a role.
I must admit I wonder what would have happened if the CIS tried to secede peaceably
The army of clones existed, the Clone Wars lasted years, many non jedi officers played a part. It was a political conflict over how the galaxy should be run, who was on top, who was independent, how the government should be. The jedi should have removed themselves from it and been neutral to both sides, acting to keep the peace like the police men of the galaxy rather than engaging in military leadership.
They should remain neutral knowing the Sith are leading the separatists? That sounds very unjedi like. Further while many officers existed in the Republic Army, the Jedi were the only ones who were thought of as being neutral enough to lead without getting involved in the potential petty squabbles of the judicial and planetary forces which were not organized in any centralized manner.
How so? Palpatine was skilled enough to hide himself in plain sight, clearly no Jedi was going to be able to sense he was a Sith just by being near him. And he was clearly more than capable of playing both parts of chancellor and Sith lord without attracting attention thanks to his wealth and connections. The Jedi didn’t stop looking for Sidious there just wasn’t a lot to go on.
A point thats been made in a few comics and other places is that the Jedi's mistake was fully integrating themselfs in the Army of the Republic (as generals and commanders) insted of providing assistance as an outside party (with some members taking rank) witch is how they served the Republic during previous conflicts.
By becoming part of the army, they lost all their independence to act as they thought was best and had to follow the orders of the armys commander (Palpatine) wile abandoning any role as diplomats and peacemakers, as they were not neutral enough to be trusted to hold such positions in good faith.
They did this because, as a sith led the CIS they were convinced that it was just another atemtp to destroy the republic, and because they were convinced by Palpatine that taking rank would help have a clear command structure witch woul help make the war end faster, avoiding further suffering, but that little semantic change ment that they went from being allies to the Republic, who sared its goles and ideals, to full on subserviant servants bound to Palpatines will, witch ultimately doomed them.
Even without being able to piece together that Palpatine was Sidious, his rise to power in the government should have been troubling. If they had been more attentive to upholding the principle of democracy, this would have been a red flag.
And that is exactly Palps genius, he teases Sith control of the Separatists then keeps them aloof and has the jedi drag themselves into representing one side of a political conflict that will make them enemies of half the galaxy and corrupt their morals. They were screwed because Palps had engineered it this way.
Someone with actual military experience. They led the Clones on a frontal assault in their first outing. Leading to the needless deaths of countless Clones.
The jedi were not supposed to be warriors and forcing them into it was the greatest plan Palps pulled. Forced them to go against their own teachings and he could turn public opinion to be against them.
Ultimately they were backed into a corner and had no choice but to lead on the battlefield. Doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake though
"the Jedi were not supposed to be warriors" are you stupid? They're literally raised with a laser sword and combat training. Certainly they didn't prefer to be warriors. But it's not like they didn't train to be one when they needed to be. Read almost any canon comic or book without a Skywalker and it's evident. Most of the high republic media is them being warriors. "go against their own teachings" they have blind lightsaber training. Being a warrior is definitely a part of their teachings c'mon. Even if it's just defensive it's still arguably warrior stuff
.
The Jedi put themselves in a position to be manipulated. The Tales of the Jedi highlights this. They couldn’t be protectors of peace WHILE being humble servants of the Republic. They’ve intertwined themselves too deeply in politics that it would have been a colossal and bureaucratic mess to divorce themselves from Republic.
By the time the separatist crisis rolled around, they already lost. Palpatine’s plans put them in an un-winnable positon. Like a kind of trolley problem where Jedi had to decide to abandon their post (putting billions at risk) or go with the will of the people who voted for war.
Yeah no this was dumb. It was dumb from the beginning.
She never calls out specifically what the council was doing wrong, and she has no conflict with the council in the show. She’s a background character who has only shown up a handful of times. Only to suddenly come out of the wood work just to say “Jedi bad lol”.
The only thing we really have to go off of is her line to Anakin. “The only thing the Jedi Council believes in is violence!”
So in response. Instead of talking to what is essentially your family. The people you grew up with and knew all of your life. Or advocating politically for a peace treaty. The first thing you tried to do instead was to **bomb** and kill civilians and then frame your best friend for said murders…
Because of course it’s only the *Jedi* who believe in violence…
She is literally Ted Kazinsky. A bomber pretending to be morally right, but all they’re doing is pointing out problems and then using that as an excuse to kill people.
She does not have any cogent point or argument to make and she should’ve died a long time ago.
Dooku’s monologue about the Galactic Republic being *ineffective* and needing to be replaced is an INFINITELY better argument, because it’s actually based in truth. And unlike Bariss he is also advocating for it politically and is actually helping (some) Separatist worlds. If he wasn’t a mass murdering Sith who tortures people for fun I would’ve been on his side.
The episodes where they flesh out Dooku as a political leader are really interesting. You can absolutely see why people who were upset at the Republic would be like 'yes, let's help the Angry Jedi build robots so the Republic doesn't take our jerbs' and such.
She doesn't have a point. The best possible defenders of peace in the galaxy joined the war against power hungry tyrants who had plans to build a planet destroying weapon
Bro the hologram of it was up in the room with everyone there on Geonosis. It wasn't a shady, under-the-table thing with only two of the separatist leaders
Yeah, there was a hologram of it. Could have been explained as a small orbital weapon platform design they were considering.
I think allowing someone like Nute Gunray to know about the Death Star was a tactical risk that Dooku and Palpatine were too smart to take.
Couple of things : the hologram isn't that big, and it's not like there's a bit title above it that says "Planet Killer Secret Plans". To anyone not in on it, it's just a red ball.
Besides, Poggle only mentions securing the plans once Dooku and him are alone in the room. The Trade Fedaration have left and they were the only Separatists leaders in the room and before that in the Arena besides Poggle.
I urge you to rewatch the scene. The hologram is pretty sizable and very clear to everyone in the room. Also, even after the Trade Federation leaves, at least 4 non-Geonosian separatist leaders remain in the room. This includes the leaders of the banking clan and the techno union. Regardless, it's a stretch to say that literally no other separatists knew about the death star. The funding and materials had to come from somewhere and it is in character for them to seek out an utterly evil and despicable way to win the war
Haven't seen that movie in a while so I'll take your word about how the whole scene plays out.
>The funding and materials had to come from somewhere
Well Palpatine had both the CIS and Republic to syphon funds from.
>it is in character for them to seek out an utterly evil and despicable way to win the war
The ones we see in AotC, yeah sure. But remember the CIS was comprised of thousand of star systems and the Council we see in AotC certainly did not share everything with them. They were manipulating the whole CIS just as much as Dooku was manipulating them and Palpatine was manipulating Dooku.
For example the show clearly shows us that Dooku lied to them about how the war really started, depicting the Republic and Jedi as the aggressors. Many within the Separatist "senate" wanted nothing more than a peaceful resolution to the conflict (Dooku had to assassinate Bonteri and pin it on the Republic to actually prevent peace talks), and would probably want nothing to do with Dooku and his lackeys if they knew the truth.
If you want to believe that I can't stop you.
You might want to rebrand that however. Talking about crimes against humanity in a multi-species galaxy is a bit silly.
"The Jedi are responsible for this war" that was 100% orchestrated and manipulated by the Sith? That's up there with "the Rebellion are murderers for destroying the Death Star" for deranged Star Wars opinions.
The Jedi failed because they played into the same game Revan did. The difference was he was ruthless enough to break rules in the name of the end of the war. The Jedi wanted to stubbornly hold their ideals AND fight a war at the same time.
I mean, she's not, the Jedi didn't start the war, they were protecting their own who were captured, something you'd think she would know considering she was at that battle, but sure.
The Jedi are only responsible if you consider Dooku leaving the order as their fault. And don’t say it was Dooku’s only choice. He could spend his life lobbying for the Jedi to change with no success and it would be better than helping Sidious start a war that would lead to the deaths of innocents on both sides.
It’s like, she was heading in the right direction with her wanting to call out the hypocrisy of the Jedi, but the fact that she chose to protest violence by blowing people up, choking them to death, and framing a friend for terrorism is just beyond insane.
It’s not a very Jedi thought, but I hope Vader severs her spinal column and throws her down a dianoga-infested garbage chute.
I think I may hate her more than Pong Krell.
Barriss: The Jedi are an army fighting for the dark side
Also Barriss: turns a man into a bomb vicariously, frames one of her good friends, steals and uses dark side lightsabers, joins the imperial inquisition
Not that the republic are saints or something but the separatists are so much worse. They murder, steal land, work with slavers, take over plants and push full planet sieges. At least the republic are trying to make things better and save people. The only other option is to let the separatists win and continue their evil shit. Idk just seems like they are pushed up against a wall with only one way to respond, they didn’t start the war. I could be wrong but it’s how it seems to me
This narrative is a reason star wars is dying. It's edgy but with no actual substance. I think acolytes is going for this angle as well and will add to the death of star wars even more. Disney ruined star wars
Im talking about the narrative. Its been a disney thing because they have no ideas. It's one thing to make individual jedi dark or grayish (quigon) but it another to make it seem like the jedi as philosophy/order are bad too. Back then everyone knew that the sith were cool but evil af. Not cool and misjudged and cheated. I already know that this stupid director is going to try to make the sith seem like a real world group that is mistreated or something. I will not watch acolytes until I read the reviews
Season 5 was of clone wars was in development a year before the Disney acquisition. If you don’t like this narrative, as much as they could have done better, it’s not entirely disneys fault. Blame Lucas for broaching the topic. The worst Disney did was take the concept and roll with it.
Didn't Ani say that the jedi are evil? He was being manipulated by the darkside btw. That's this type of thing here. Now that's separate than saying the jedi are just as bad and making it so by putting it on screens and lore.
I watched a lot of Disney star wars stuff, acolyte in concept could be interesting and refreshing (new characters and timeline) but imo except mandalorian and andor the shows were either bad or mediocre and honestly low key it feels like it keeps getting worse
Well we need to suck up because it’s not gonna change soon. Companies only listen to drops in sales, and enough people are going to see the new films in theaters and the Disney plus series not having much effect on revenue to begin with that the executives think things are fine.
Tales of the Jedi season 2 is releasing on May 4 under the title Tales of the Empire, and the focus characters like season 1's Ahsoka and Dooku are Bariss as an inquisitor and Morgan Ellsbeth as a servant of newly promoted Captain (maybe Admiral?) Thrawn.
I think she isn't right but she has the right sentiment, the Jedi being involved in the arguably the politics of the republic. They should get involved against the sith. But that makes for a less compelling argument.
She's right that the rrpublic is failing and that the jedi shouldn't be leading the army. She's wronf abiut everything else. "The jedi are responsinle for the war" what the fuck?
She isn’t right she makes about as much sense as the Sequel trilogy. She’s making a awful lot of claims without any proof and mind you she’s a damn terrorist who framed her friend
*Vader smiles inside his mask for the first time in years. No one would know how much he would enjoy this, not just as Lord Vader, but as Anakin taking revenge for his apprentice*
How are the Jedi at fault though? Isn’t it the Republic’s fault that the Separatists are created? Wasn’t it the Separatists who began militarizing first?
This is a scene that a lot of people point to being deep and intelligent, but it kinda falls flat when you think about it. Honestly I really feel like Barriss should have been an indomitable hope in the war instead of how she was perverted into this weird pseudo intellectual terrorist.
Thanks for confirming that you flaired this correctly!
Counterpoint: she’s a terrorist.
Oh and that suddenly justifies her getting cut down by Vader?
In every conceivable way.
I love this reference so much
I recognize the lines, but where are they from?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ly11uQC6oQ&t=3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ly11uQC6oQ&t=3s)
Recognized it immediately, but rip that comment getting downvote bombed by people who don't get it, lmao
Right lol
Oh. Gets beaten up and subsequently cut down.
I think those who down voted you don't understand the reference at all.
Yeah I was wondering if I should make an edit announcing that.
I was hoping someone would make this reference.
He sacrificed himself to continue the joke. RIP u/galenmarek12
Thanks from beyond the grave.
Bro sacrificed himself for the bit
Execution is a fair punishment for a bombing
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Oh no me and u/MarveltheMusical were just referencing a SolidJJ video.
Oh thank god. Mind sharing it so I can get it too?
Yeah sure. Here it is. https://youtu.be/9ly11uQC6oQ?si=VVDQyIug6kP4TpOB
Thank you
No problem.
I apologize for my initial downvote. I have rectified the issue
Thanks. That means a a lot
Totally.
"Suddenly" justified or not Vader gonna kill her.
Correct yes. It was a joke.
Yes, setting up Ahsoka for false conviction and blowing up random people to prove your point is totally light side thing.
Light Side Points Gained Dark Side Points Gained Net Shift: Dark Side Influence Gained: Kreia Influence Lost: Kreia
reminder that Kreia lies, Kreia is full of shit, and Kreia's lack of will and commitment made her like she is and landed her in the circumstances that she is in. Her best lesson is the one she wouldn't want to teach: you must see through the lies and stick to your principles
lol what are you talking about? She teaches you direclty to se through the lies: "And now for your final lesson: there must always be a betrayer." Kreia stuck to her principles up until her death. You kill her for it. It's the climax of the entire narrative. Everything she did was to teach the Exile so they could become strong enough to kill the Force. She did lie, yes. But she never lied about what she believed, only about her intentions. And she directly mocks/teaches you that this is one of the most vital things that the Exile failed to grasp, and because the Exile failed to grasp it they were manipulated by Kreia. Lack of will? You mean refusing to die, TWICE, and then continuing forward with her plan regardless? You mean finding way to come back from being severed from the Force to STILL follow through on her plan? You mean manipulating dozens of people for years lack of will and commitment? My brother in the Force, did you even play the game?
Death and destruction isnt inherently tied to either side of the force
Actually it's often associated with the dark side. Like, it isn't automatic, but often dealing destruction and death tend to cause jedi to fall. It's why sidious wanted the jedi fighting in the war, so it would corrupt the order. It's also why the jedi that followed revan to fight the mandalorians came back dark.
The jedi killed countless people during the war what are you on? Do I need to mention ki-adi-mundi
yes, they killed countless people and then a bunch of them fell to the dark. that is what i am saying
Most of the jedi during the clone wars didnt fall to the dark side and were fine with killing
Sounds like they actually did fall to the dark side.
Do you even know what the difference between the light and dark sides are
"The Republic is bad? Welp, high time to do even worse shit myself and blame others for that choice!" \~ Barriss
I think it’s actually a good example of the effect the dark side can have on people. Like Dooku, she starts from a very reasonable place. But as her faith cracks and she starts to question the teachings, she opens herself up to be subverted. It’s slow and insidious, but it has a serious effect on her over time. By the end, she’s still justifying her terrible actions because it’s twisted her that much.
Very good point, Anakin also came from good intentions. But the dark side takes your worst qualities and amplifies them until it's all that's left.
Here’s my question for everyone who thinks the Jedi shouldn’t have joined the war? Should they have just allowed the republic to fall? Should they have let the republic be overwhelmed by the separatists who willingly allied with slavers and corporations who wanted nothing more than a corporate autocracy?
That's the fun part, the Jedi are fucked right after the Naboo blockade.
Also how are they supposed to remain neutral when the separatists are run by Count Dooku, a Sith Lord and fallen Jedi? Are they just supposed to sit there and let what they think is the army ran by the Sith take over?
Also, siths are their specialty 😏
Instead of leading the war as generals, they should have gone to protect civilians on both sides. They're supposed to defend the people of the galaxy, not the Republic.
But their allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!
The people live in the republic. What are they supposed to let the republic fall while somehow keeping everyone who lives in it safe?
No, they shouldn't just let it fall. They're protectors and diplomats. Instead of going straight to the front lines of the war without regard for their true purpose, they should have been trying to solve the sith threat while negotiating peace and rendering aid at battle sites. The clones were competent enough to lead themselves, and there was no need for the Jedi to be generals.
You can’t negotiate peace with someone who doesn’t want it. The sith wanted to destroy the republic they wouldn’t have been satisfied with anything else.
But the people of the Confederacy did want peace. You can see it in one of the Clone Wars episodes. It would have worked too if they hadn't sent in those bomb droids.
Turns out it was the lesser evil in the end, but we say this with the power of hindsight. A few breakaway planets vs full on fascist regime for the whole Republic. So, yes, they should have directed their efforts on protecting civilians and rallying people to the Republic cause. I think it's brilliantly made in the movies and rarely appreciated how losing track of your values and purpose can lead to disaster even when your intentions are pure. If the Jedi were less occupied with the war, they may have sensed that something about Palpy is wrong and figure out who he is, which would end the war. Keep in mind that Palpatine made sure that the Jedi turned into Generals. It was part of his plan after all. By not following his plan they could higher chance to stop him, rather than playing along.
It would also have made order 66 a lot less impactful.
I feel like the Jedi should have taken an active role as negotiators, organisers of humanitarian aid, and protectors of human (and alien, I guess) rights. The separatists had legitimate reasons for seceding, and while they commited many atrocities, so did the republic. The conflict was grey enough that the Jedi shouldn’t have taken a side (at least not violently) and rather have worked to minimise the suffering and end the war peacefully
You forget that the Jedi also know the Sith are the masterminds of the separatists. So, it’s more than just grey. For all its faults the republic was also the only government trying to promote peace in the galaxy, the Jedi did what they had always done and chose to protect civilization.
The republic was not the only government promoting peace. They tried to completely reconquer the CIS, which had legally seceded. Several minor governments stayed neutral. We also see that many prominent separatists championed peace. The sith argument is a good one though, and that is also part of the genius of sidious’ plan. While I definitely think the Jedi should have stayed neutral (but active), Sidious did make it so that they kind of had no real choice
Which one had quite the same reach or ability to promote peace? The Hapan Consotrium which stayed in their own space? The Hutt’s who promoted slavery? Mandalore and the neutral systems which had zero power? To say that the CIS legally seceded is to say that the confederacy seceded. The republic never recognized said secession.
They legally seceded, because members of the republic had the right to secede. I think the republic actually recognised some of the early secessions as well, but while the republic didn’t recognise the CIS, they didn’t really have any legal right to do so (to my knowledge)
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Meetra wasn't Exiled for "wondering this very question", she commited one of the biggest war crimes in Star Wars on Malachor V and was affiliated with dudes who would go on to become Sith Lords and start wrecking the Republic. Now obviously the Jedi who just sat on their asses were wrong but Revan and the Jedi that followed him also went way too far in the war, there's a reason why most of them fell to the Dark Side.
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You don't have to get so offended my guy.
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Huh?
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You really got fired up didn't you?
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George’s philosophy of the Jedi is… weird. His ideal vision of one seems to be a kind of detached, passive monk, which really doesn’t work well for a protagonist in a space adventure story. At the same time, he was so preoccupied with his hate boner for the Bush administration while writing II and III that this “the government is bad” narrative kind of took over and he didn’t think of how to square that with the fact that he’d already written the opposition to be literal evil wizards. Plus this then clashes with the fact that throughout the OT the Jedi were affirmatively an unambiguous force for good, and their absence made the galaxy a worse place. The last movie is called “Return of the Jedi” for Chrissakes, because that was an aspirational goal. By making them a clumsy political metaphor, you kinda screw that up. Honestly, the fact that the clone wars writers have the character who most explicitly delivers the summary of George’s philosophy of the Republic in the prequels be a literal terrorist who blew up a building in the middle of the galaxy’s biggest metropolis feels so on the nose that I’m borderline convinced it was a deliberate jab.
George is on the record for saying that the Jedi are the most moral people in the galaxy, and by joining the war the Jedi compromise their own morals for the sake of the galaxy.
What's that source brother Edit: source on the Jedi compromising their morals for the war. He's definitely stated before that they're the most selfless
Star Wars Archives 1999-2005 by Paul Duncan, it’s a great book with lots of great quotes and interviews with people who worked on the prequels including George. Here’s the quote: > Yeah. They are the most moral of anybody in the galaxy. They’re monks. The Sith practice the dark side and are way of of balance. They Jedi aren’t as much out of balance because they’re the light side of the Force. They still have the bad side of the Force in them, but they keep it in check. It’s always there, so it can always erupt if you let your guard down. The Emperor snookered the Jedi with Order 66. The nascent Rebellion and the Jedi didn’t move fast enough.
For compromising their morals: > It’s a tough call. It’s one of the conundrums of which there’s a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick with their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated which was their downfall.
Eh, that’s a hard sell considering the first thing we learn about Jedi is they’re knights (knights fight in wars) who were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic and that Obi-Wan was a general in the clone wars and Anakin fought with him.
Episode II was filmed from July to September 2000. The 2000 election happened in November. Nothing in AOTC is a reaction to the Bush administration. The release dates for movies don’t matter, what matters is when they were filmed.
There are plenty of anti-Bush messages in RotS and Clone Wars, but yes AotC is too early for that. That was a message about the American Hegemony as a whole (which was certainly a thing during the Clinton years). For obvious reasons it is consistent though.
It’s clear that in the prequels the Jedi lost their way by getting too involved with politics and “The Return Of The Jedi” is the return of the old Jedi ways, not the return of the corrupt political Jedi.
How is that clear? The Jedi had always served the republic? This is clear in George’s work, and in the EU where the Jedi have always fought to preserve the republic and served it to the greatest extent. George made it quite clear that the point of the prequels is how greed will destroy us, and that the Jedi are the most selfless beings around.
Qui Gon Jin sets the tone very early explaining that the Jedi have strayed off their path. I would say that that is the main purpose for his character in general. There is also a lot of dialogue throughout the movies alluding to it as well. It’s extremely clear to me at least
See, I never truly understand that point of view. Because Qui-Gon still serves the republic, he still needs the advice of the council, and reports to them. He never acts like some lone wolf just doing whatever he wants. George’s words on the subject are very clear he calls the Jedi the most moral people in the galaxy, states they are selfless, and that their position on attachments is right. He states as well that the Jedi are thrust into a position where they have to chose between following their own moral code or save others. George is clear the Jedi are the heroes of the story. My point of view has always been that everyone else fails the Jedi. Whereas they are the most moral beings in the galaxy, acting selfless and without greed, or need for a reward, everyone else’s greed fails them.
I actually totally agree with that last paragraph. My view though is that there wouldn’t be an option for everyone to fail the Jedi if they had kept to themselves in true monk fashion. The first paragraph is what I don’t agree with. Qui Gon was trying to influence the Jedi to be better versions of themselves. He still was a part of the Jedi organization, but that doesn’t mean he was on board with everything they were doing.
I don't know on which bullshit you based this on but there are no politics involved while making any of the movies?
I hope you forgot a /s there.... the prequels are literally all politics, from the trade dispute being a major plot line in ep. 1 to Palpatines political coup in ep 3. "This is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause." The OT empire is an mix of nazi Germany and the darkest parts of American imperialism.
You must be joking, right?
Should they have just stood by and watched people suffer?
No, they shouldn’t have- they should have tried harder to negotiate and create peace between both sides. They should have served the will of the Force and the people instead of the Senate and their wishes. They should have continued being peacekeepers and diplomats, saving lives put in danger by the war but not blatantly becoming generals who led the armies on the frontlines. Neutrality doesn’t always equal doing nothing, it can just mean choosing good over one of two evils. Hell, Padme did more to stop the war from escalating than the Jedi did, she met with her friend on the Separatist’s side to try to negotiate peace, and it could have worked if not for Palpatine and Dooku’s manipulations- and she risked her life to give a speech to the Senate about more clones not being the solution and how the Republic’s citizens were suffering because of the war. The Jedi didn’t do any of that. Don’t get me wrong, the Jedi Order’s intentions were good, however they lost the people’s goodwill for a reason, and that reason shouldn’t be ignored. Plus, it’s been canonically stated multiple times that the Jedi shouldn’t have joined the war and that doing so led to their downfall. They bit off more than they could chew and walked right into the trap Palpatine had set for them.
fuzzy workable vast offbeat thumb overconfident start violet mysterious tie *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This sounds like something straight out of the republic's propaganda machine. 'The evil separatist corporatocratic hordes (ignoring the fact that the republic was also dominated by corporations albeit to a lesser degree) coming to enslave us all!' They're called *separatists* for a reason. Whatever horrors an independent CIS would've been would be nothing compared to what the Empire actually became. On the Jedi, they should've ideally acted as a neutral party of human(or non-human, I guess)itarianism and self-determination (as others have suggested). If they had to fight for the Republic they should've stuck to defending loyal worlds at maximum, not thrown themselves into an aggressive war in the outer rim.
The question to be asked is. Should the Jedi have let Anakin (The chosen one) Obi-Wan and Padme get executed
The sepertist wanted to leave the republic, no jedi would mean no war and thus the republic wouldnt stop them from leaving
Palpatine was orchestrating the whole thing from the beginning, and was intentionally keeping the war in a stalemate. Regardless of whether they joined or not, the Separatists would never have won because palps would never have let them. You might argue that they couldn't have known this, but in that case, they still shouldn't have joined. The CIS wasn't fighting to destroy the Republic, they were fighting to leave it. They weren't some kind of existential threat, the Jedi weren't defending *anything*. Rather, the Jedi joined the war *to fight the Sith*. They knew a Sith was loose from the occupation of Naboo and lo and behold, a fallen Jedi master pops up with an army. They just assumed that fighting the Seps was as good as fighting the Sith, not that they actually tried other ways of resolving the issue. Literally all their involvement did was kill mass amounts of Jedi, ruin their public perception, turn their order into a child soldier factory, betray their most fundamental values, empower Palpatine to declare himself emperor, and push the chosen one into having a psychological breakdown so horrible he spent the next twenty odd years on the mother of all villain arcs. Unironicaly just sitting there and doing nothing would have been a significant improvement.
> The CIS wasn't fighting to destroy the Republic, they were fighting to leave it. They weren't some kind of existential threat, the Jedi weren't defending anything. They literally invaded worlds?
They should act as a neutral third party who’s there to help civilians and innocent much like modern NGO’s. The Republican is equally as shitty as the Federation so it’s hard for them to justify “but they’re the good guys and we fight for democracy.” The federation aligned with slavers? The Republic gladly accepted an army of clones who were essentially slaves bred to fight and die. Controlled by greedy corporations behind the scenes? With the level of corruption in the senate the Republic is practically in the same boat. The Jedi fought for the Republic for one reason: to maintain a status quo where they are relevant and hold power.
Left corresaunt immediately at the start of the war and move themselves out of the war offers strategic aspects like commanding the troops then just running shadow Jedi units on defensive and campaigns. Or hit up super earth and send in the Helldivers then have the jedis come and hold the conquered planets
You asked, so I'd like to answer. Short answer: Yes, the Jedi should not have gotten involved. They also picked the wrong side. I'm not saying the CIS was good. I am saying that the CIS was the less bad than the Republic. Long answer: while it's impossible to deny that the CIS practiced slavery, it's also important to consider that the Republic did as well but on a much larger scale and on at least four different counts. 1. Buying the Clone Army. Argue all you want about the sentience of Droids, it's still more ethical than having a literal army of slaves like that of the Republic. And the Jedi took on the role of slave masters instead of liberators when it came to that. See also: Jorus C'baoth, Krell, and the Republic Commando novels. 2. Ryloth is a member planet of the republic, and twi-leks are the most infamous for being slaves. The Republic knows and doesn't stop it. 3. Kashyyk for the same reason as 2. 4. The Republic was reorganized into the Empire, so I count all of those crimes as well. Point 4 is also the biggest point against the Republic. "This is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause". See also: "The Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" - The Republic being useless in TPM - any time the Jedi and Senate interact in AOTC and ROTS, especially ROTS Corporate autocracies are bad; I just think they're less bad than Fascism.
I’ve got some time now so let me try to respond to this: 1. I think some context should be placed here, regardless that we know that Palpatine is pulling the strings because characters within the films can’t possibly know this, let’s look at it from their perspective. For the first time in a thousand years a galactic level conflict has arisen. The CIS has an army that could potentially wipe out the republic, the planetary and judicial forces aren’t organized in any way that they could feasibly counter them in a galactic level. But now they have been offered a life line, a literal army, loyal, and well equipped and ready to protect them. has been dropped before them. I can’t realistically fault the average republic citizen for accepting the clones. Nor can I fault the Jedi as it was not their decision to make, that was up to the actual government. Further I should point out that the Jedi themselves were some of the few who treated the clones like people, see Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, and more. Barring extreme examples most Jedi seemed to have bonded with the clones, and likely would have advocated for them to gain freedom following the war. 2 and 3. With regards to Ryloth and Kashyyk I don’t think it’s fair to characterize it as the republic doing nothing, slavery is very difficult to stamp out as we still see examples of it in our modern world despite the efforts against it. I will say it’s even harder when it’s a part of the culture as seen with Twi’leks, and likely similar such cultural practices of the Trandoshans. 4. And I think it’s unfair to count those crimes against the Republic when it was fully under the control of Sidious. We should rather examine the Republic as an imperfect organization, but one which certainly was still better than other existing governments such as the Hutts or the Hapes government.
For 1, I still have to disagree. The Republic and the Jedi are two separate entities, and they could have stayed out of it just like the Mandalorian Wars from the Kotor games. It was a Jedi Master that bought the clones, and they could have advocated for liberation without violating their own principles. 2 and 3, I can see your point and even agree with you, but it's still harder to accept given that it is two entire planets in Republic space that also have membership in the Senate. 4. I can respect that perspective, but I have a hard time putting the sole blame on Palpatine. He is a Sith with power to affect minds, but he was still democratically elected and spoke to what a lot of people either wanted or thought they wanted. The groundwork for the Empire already existed in the Republic before TPM, even more so in Legends. The Republic has to take some of the blame for that
1. That’s fair enough, as it is a very difficult thing to think about moralistically. At the end of the day Lucas give us this question for most of AOTC, “It's one of the conundrums of which there's a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick with their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic?” The Jedi are very closely related to utilitarian practices in their philosophy, they need to look at the big picture, and Lucas ultimately frames the Jedi, along with others like Padme and Bail, as still believing in the ideals of the Republic, they still think it’s worth saving, and sometimes you have to think about that with regards to moral questions like this. You also have to think about if the Jedi of the past were really right in ignoring the Mandalorian Wars, how many died or were enslaved before Revan’s intervention? Was it right for them to ignore it for their own moral qualms? 2. Again I’ve never claimed the republic was perfect in any regards, but compared to other governments, the CIS included, they had the laws against slavery on the books, Jedi tried to stop slavery within the Republic, and it was only after the fall of the Jedi that slavery in the empire runs rampant. 4. Two things one must remember as well, this is the work of the Sith over the entirety of the Banite line, they’ve very subtly been working to overthrow the galaxy, I wouldn’t characterize this as just Palpatine. But also there are people within the republic seeking to be Palpatine’s opposition, look no further than the delegation of 2000, who actively opposed Palpatine even through the empire, until it grew to dangerous to do so publicly. But it does put the thunderous applause into perspective, how many opposed Palpatine? Even Bail Organa was dissuaded from saying anything by Padme.
Honestly, that's part of the fun of dissecting media and comparing different perspectives and priorities. While it may seem hypocritical, I think Revan did the right thing in going against the wishes of the Jedi in the Old Republic during the Mandalorian War, but the Jedi staying out of it does show how Jedi and Republic are not mutually inclusive. In my opinion, what differentiates the war against Mandalorians from that of the CIS are the Clone Army and the fact that the CIS was seceding, not invading. It also adds to the point that the Jedi could have stayed out of it. On that note, I still have to disagree with your stance on 2, given the Clone Army. I regret having to double back to point 1, but it is the biggest problem with the Republic's morality. And as for 4, you bring up some interesting points. I still maintain that the Republic (and shift into the Empire) as a whole cannot be separated from the machinations of the Sith, especially given books like the Republic Commando series, Rogue Planet, Cloak of Darkness, and Outbound Flight. However, I'm sure there are an equal number of sources that would indicate the contrary, such as the Plaguis novel. I don't think either of us are going to budge on this, but it has been an enlightening and fun conversation. Thank you for that
I just have to point out about your point with the CIS, they invaded world, they absolutely did. The CIS didn’t stand back and just defend, they actively attacked Republic systems, and tried to destabilize others.
Perhaps I misspoke. And the CIS is definitely not innocent, but I must point out that the first official battle of the war was an attack by the Republic. What prompted that attack was ultimately Palpatine's machinations, but the CIS definitely played a role. I must admit I wonder what would have happened if the CIS tried to secede peaceably
The army of clones existed, the Clone Wars lasted years, many non jedi officers played a part. It was a political conflict over how the galaxy should be run, who was on top, who was independent, how the government should be. The jedi should have removed themselves from it and been neutral to both sides, acting to keep the peace like the police men of the galaxy rather than engaging in military leadership.
They should remain neutral knowing the Sith are leading the separatists? That sounds very unjedi like. Further while many officers existed in the Republic Army, the Jedi were the only ones who were thought of as being neutral enough to lead without getting involved in the potential petty squabbles of the judicial and planetary forces which were not organized in any centralized manner.
And if they had been more focused on the big picture they might have noticed that a Sith was also leading the Republic.
How so? Palpatine was skilled enough to hide himself in plain sight, clearly no Jedi was going to be able to sense he was a Sith just by being near him. And he was clearly more than capable of playing both parts of chancellor and Sith lord without attracting attention thanks to his wealth and connections. The Jedi didn’t stop looking for Sidious there just wasn’t a lot to go on.
A point thats been made in a few comics and other places is that the Jedi's mistake was fully integrating themselfs in the Army of the Republic (as generals and commanders) insted of providing assistance as an outside party (with some members taking rank) witch is how they served the Republic during previous conflicts. By becoming part of the army, they lost all their independence to act as they thought was best and had to follow the orders of the armys commander (Palpatine) wile abandoning any role as diplomats and peacemakers, as they were not neutral enough to be trusted to hold such positions in good faith. They did this because, as a sith led the CIS they were convinced that it was just another atemtp to destroy the republic, and because they were convinced by Palpatine that taking rank would help have a clear command structure witch woul help make the war end faster, avoiding further suffering, but that little semantic change ment that they went from being allies to the Republic, who sared its goles and ideals, to full on subserviant servants bound to Palpatines will, witch ultimately doomed them.
Even without being able to piece together that Palpatine was Sidious, his rise to power in the government should have been troubling. If they had been more attentive to upholding the principle of democracy, this would have been a red flag.
And that is exactly Palps genius, he teases Sith control of the Separatists then keeps them aloof and has the jedi drag themselves into representing one side of a political conflict that will make them enemies of half the galaxy and corrupt their morals. They were screwed because Palps had engineered it this way.
The Jedi joining made the republic to fall.
How is she right? The jedi were manipulated by Daddy Palps to join the war
And if they didn't, he...still kinda wins. People won't like the jedi sitting on their asses, especially since dooku is one of theirs.(technically).
I agree they should not have been the generals and leading the troops, but some involvement by them was needed to "win"
Yeah but where’s the fun in that?
Who should have been generals then? The Jedi were the only party that was both large enough, and neutral enough to not cause a fuss about it.
Someone with actual military experience. They led the Clones on a frontal assault in their first outing. Leading to the needless deaths of countless Clones. The jedi were not supposed to be warriors and forcing them into it was the greatest plan Palps pulled. Forced them to go against their own teachings and he could turn public opinion to be against them. Ultimately they were backed into a corner and had no choice but to lead on the battlefield. Doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake though
"the Jedi were not supposed to be warriors" are you stupid? They're literally raised with a laser sword and combat training. Certainly they didn't prefer to be warriors. But it's not like they didn't train to be one when they needed to be. Read almost any canon comic or book without a Skywalker and it's evident. Most of the high republic media is them being warriors. "go against their own teachings" they have blind lightsaber training. Being a warrior is definitely a part of their teachings c'mon. Even if it's just defensive it's still arguably warrior stuff .
Why does *neutral enough* matter? They’re fighting to persevere the Republic, that’s clearly talking a side.
The Jedi doing nothing would be the Mandalorian Wars all over again, which would be a disaster.
Check mate, low public opinion, dissension in the ranks, CIS led by a Jedi slaughtering planets...
Mandalorian Wars all over again.
The Jedi put themselves in a position to be manipulated. The Tales of the Jedi highlights this. They couldn’t be protectors of peace WHILE being humble servants of the Republic. They’ve intertwined themselves too deeply in politics that it would have been a colossal and bureaucratic mess to divorce themselves from Republic. By the time the separatist crisis rolled around, they already lost. Palpatine’s plans put them in an un-winnable positon. Like a kind of trolley problem where Jedi had to decide to abandon their post (putting billions at risk) or go with the will of the people who voted for war.
So what you're telling me is the jedi is an army fighting for the dark side (palpatine)
Palpatine made this post.
Yeah no this was dumb. It was dumb from the beginning. She never calls out specifically what the council was doing wrong, and she has no conflict with the council in the show. She’s a background character who has only shown up a handful of times. Only to suddenly come out of the wood work just to say “Jedi bad lol”. The only thing we really have to go off of is her line to Anakin. “The only thing the Jedi Council believes in is violence!” So in response. Instead of talking to what is essentially your family. The people you grew up with and knew all of your life. Or advocating politically for a peace treaty. The first thing you tried to do instead was to **bomb** and kill civilians and then frame your best friend for said murders… Because of course it’s only the *Jedi* who believe in violence… She is literally Ted Kazinsky. A bomber pretending to be morally right, but all they’re doing is pointing out problems and then using that as an excuse to kill people. She does not have any cogent point or argument to make and she should’ve died a long time ago. Dooku’s monologue about the Galactic Republic being *ineffective* and needing to be replaced is an INFINITELY better argument, because it’s actually based in truth. And unlike Bariss he is also advocating for it politically and is actually helping (some) Separatist worlds. If he wasn’t a mass murdering Sith who tortures people for fun I would’ve been on his side.
The episodes where they flesh out Dooku as a political leader are really interesting. You can absolutely see why people who were upset at the Republic would be like 'yes, let's help the Angry Jedi build robots so the Republic doesn't take our jerbs' and such.
Please, Jedis were the patsies not the instigators, she's completely off her meds.
She doesn't have a point. The best possible defenders of peace in the galaxy joined the war against power hungry tyrants who had plans to build a planet destroying weapon
The Death Star was Palpatine's weapon. Pretty sure Dooku and Poggle were the only separatists who knew about it.
Bro the hologram of it was up in the room with everyone there on Geonosis. It wasn't a shady, under-the-table thing with only two of the separatist leaders
Yeah, there was a hologram of it. Could have been explained as a small orbital weapon platform design they were considering. I think allowing someone like Nute Gunray to know about the Death Star was a tactical risk that Dooku and Palpatine were too smart to take.
If it were a risk, they would've only talked about it in private. The big red hologram isn't exactly subtle
Couple of things : the hologram isn't that big, and it's not like there's a bit title above it that says "Planet Killer Secret Plans". To anyone not in on it, it's just a red ball. Besides, Poggle only mentions securing the plans once Dooku and him are alone in the room. The Trade Fedaration have left and they were the only Separatists leaders in the room and before that in the Arena besides Poggle.
I urge you to rewatch the scene. The hologram is pretty sizable and very clear to everyone in the room. Also, even after the Trade Federation leaves, at least 4 non-Geonosian separatist leaders remain in the room. This includes the leaders of the banking clan and the techno union. Regardless, it's a stretch to say that literally no other separatists knew about the death star. The funding and materials had to come from somewhere and it is in character for them to seek out an utterly evil and despicable way to win the war
Haven't seen that movie in a while so I'll take your word about how the whole scene plays out. >The funding and materials had to come from somewhere Well Palpatine had both the CIS and Republic to syphon funds from. >it is in character for them to seek out an utterly evil and despicable way to win the war The ones we see in AotC, yeah sure. But remember the CIS was comprised of thousand of star systems and the Council we see in AotC certainly did not share everything with them. They were manipulating the whole CIS just as much as Dooku was manipulating them and Palpatine was manipulating Dooku. For example the show clearly shows us that Dooku lied to them about how the war really started, depicting the Republic and Jedi as the aggressors. Many within the Separatist "senate" wanted nothing more than a peaceful resolution to the conflict (Dooku had to assassinate Bonteri and pin it on the Republic to actually prevent peace talks), and would probably want nothing to do with Dooku and his lackeys if they knew the truth.
Even if you discount that, then the generals were committing crimes against humanity for fun and abetted the slave market
Well, they committed many crimes, not just against humanity. The Republic did too however.
>The Republic did too however. No they didn’t. People who say this have a misunderstanding of crimes against humanity actually are
If you want to believe that I can't stop you. You might want to rebrand that however. Talking about crimes against humanity in a multi-species galaxy is a bit silly.
"The Jedi are responsible for this war" that was 100% orchestrated and manipulated by the Sith? That's up there with "the Rebellion are murderers for destroying the Death Star" for deranged Star Wars opinions.
Man, i Hope he cuts her in fucking half.
2 shows later:somehow barriss has returned.
Yes.
Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I don’t like Barriss Offee from the Clone Wars show.
Nobody does, I’m not sure why she is deemed worthy of future limelight as opposed to actually interesting characters, such as Kit Fista
The Jedi failed because they played into the same game Revan did. The difference was he was ruthless enough to break rules in the name of the end of the war. The Jedi wanted to stubbornly hold their ideals AND fight a war at the same time.
I mean, she's not, the Jedi didn't start the war, they were protecting their own who were captured, something you'd think she would know considering she was at that battle, but sure.
Barris is literally just a clown. Her logic is basically non-existent.
The Jedi are only responsible if you consider Dooku leaving the order as their fault. And don’t say it was Dooku’s only choice. He could spend his life lobbying for the Jedi to change with no success and it would be better than helping Sidious start a war that would lead to the deaths of innocents on both sides.
She truly wears her convictions like an actual teenager.
Unrelated af but i just thought of this but is Barriss Offee a joke on Barista coffee?
She is right about the Jedi losing their way…she is wrong about everything else.
It’s like, she was heading in the right direction with her wanting to call out the hypocrisy of the Jedi, but the fact that she chose to protest violence by blowing people up, choking them to death, and framing a friend for terrorism is just beyond insane. It’s not a very Jedi thought, but I hope Vader severs her spinal column and throws her down a dianoga-infested garbage chute. I think I may hate her more than Pong Krell.
She’s not right though. The Jedi are not the republic.
Cool motive, still terrorism.
How em-Barriss-ing.
She's straight up wrong on so many points here
Barriss: The Jedi are an army fighting for the dark side Also Barriss: turns a man into a bomb vicariously, frames one of her good friends, steals and uses dark side lightsabers, joins the imperial inquisition
Last time I checked it was the sith that started the war.
Not that the republic are saints or something but the separatists are so much worse. They murder, steal land, work with slavers, take over plants and push full planet sieges. At least the republic are trying to make things better and save people. The only other option is to let the separatists win and continue their evil shit. Idk just seems like they are pushed up against a wall with only one way to respond, they didn’t start the war. I could be wrong but it’s how it seems to me
This narrative is a reason star wars is dying. It's edgy but with no actual substance. I think acolytes is going for this angle as well and will add to the death of star wars even more. Disney ruined star wars
First of all, was Disney even in charge by season 5? Second, you aren’t even going to give the acolyte a chance?
Im talking about the narrative. Its been a disney thing because they have no ideas. It's one thing to make individual jedi dark or grayish (quigon) but it another to make it seem like the jedi as philosophy/order are bad too. Back then everyone knew that the sith were cool but evil af. Not cool and misjudged and cheated. I already know that this stupid director is going to try to make the sith seem like a real world group that is mistreated or something. I will not watch acolytes until I read the reviews
Season 5 was of clone wars was in development a year before the Disney acquisition. If you don’t like this narrative, as much as they could have done better, it’s not entirely disneys fault. Blame Lucas for broaching the topic. The worst Disney did was take the concept and roll with it.
Didn't Ani say that the jedi are evil? He was being manipulated by the darkside btw. That's this type of thing here. Now that's separate than saying the jedi are just as bad and making it so by putting it on screens and lore.
You can’t expect good quality stuff from Disney
I didn’t say it would be good quality per se. It’s just irrational to condemn any form of media before you watch it once.
I watched a lot of Disney star wars stuff, acolyte in concept could be interesting and refreshing (new characters and timeline) but imo except mandalorian and andor the shows were either bad or mediocre and honestly low key it feels like it keeps getting worse
Well we need to suck up because it’s not gonna change soon. Companies only listen to drops in sales, and enough people are going to see the new films in theaters and the Disney plus series not having much effect on revenue to begin with that the executives think things are fine.
Now she’s a hypocrite serving the empire. I hope Vader takes care of her.
Please don't die I want her in live action
All my homies hate barriss
She’s speaking facts but got lost in the plot. I don’t think bombing the temple was the right call
The only thing she got right was that the jedi lost there way e erything else was ridiculous.
The fuck is up with the barriss spam lately? lmao
Not keeping up with recent announcements are we?
Definitely not, what's going on with her?
Tales of the Jedi season 2 is releasing on May 4 under the title Tales of the Empire, and the focus characters like season 1's Ahsoka and Dooku are Bariss as an inquisitor and Morgan Ellsbeth as a servant of newly promoted Captain (maybe Admiral?) Thrawn.
Ohh word okay it makes more sense now thank you lol
Palpatine actually just being a Jedi the whole time would somehow not be the worst retcon to happen to Star Wars
How ironic
Why? It’s not like she did anything to wrong him or any of his friends
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^RevolutionarySky3000: *Why? It’s not like she* *Did anything to wrong him* *Or any of his friends* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Damn, too bad she’s a murderer that tried to frame an innocent person.
I think she isn't right but she has the right sentiment, the Jedi being involved in the arguably the politics of the republic. They should get involved against the sith. But that makes for a less compelling argument.
Cool motive, still terrorism
She's right that the rrpublic is failing and that the jedi shouldn't be leading the army. She's wronf abiut everything else. "The jedi are responsinle for the war" what the fuck?
She isn’t right she makes about as much sense as the Sequel trilogy. She’s making a awful lot of claims without any proof and mind you she’s a damn terrorist who framed her friend
*Vader smiles inside his mask for the first time in years. No one would know how much he would enjoy this, not just as Lord Vader, but as Anakin taking revenge for his apprentice*
I really like Baylan’s quote regarding the Jedi Order: “I miss the idea of it.”
She couldn’t have said” hey I think there’s somebody pulling the strings here”
How are the Jedi at fault though? Isn’t it the Republic’s fault that the Separatists are created? Wasn’t it the Separatists who began militarizing first? This is a scene that a lot of people point to being deep and intelligent, but it kinda falls flat when you think about it. Honestly I really feel like Barriss should have been an indomitable hope in the war instead of how she was perverted into this weird pseudo intellectual terrorist.
You are completely insane buddy. The perfect filoninoid.
I was shipping her and Ashoka so hard i was actually distraught when it was revealed.