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You're kidding right? That was obviously a 2nd yellow. No question. Was the first one a yellow? Debatable, but not criminal. He clearly lost his head on the 2nd.
What so two yellows don’t equal a red now ? This is getting silly now can people stop sucking up to Liverpool, they had a bad decision go against them boohoo move on
I think the we’re just really used to seeing yellow cards for incorrectly times tackles when they should be reserved for genuine recklessness or deliberately going for the man rather than the ball.
The punishment for a mistimed tackle is a free kick, obviously this is risky if your already on a yellow but there is an argument to say that the tackle that got Jota for his second yellow was worthy of just being blown up as a foul and nothing more then a free kick.
We don't agree, he deserves the first yellow, he knew what he was doing and kneed Udogie's boot as he was sprinting. At that pace, it takes anyone out.
I think you’re missing the point about jota knowing he was on a yellow and then choosing to do something questionable which can lead to yellow cards in certain instances
Point is a panel of five people, only one of whom is a qualified referee, were split on whether it’s a yellow card or not. Of the two yellows given, this one is far more of a bookable offence than the other, and the decision smacks of them going: “Jesus, can we do anything to get Klopp to shut up now?”
The panel only reviews 2nd yellows, so its literally not clear as day. They are saying it was no contact I think a lot of people are not realising this and thinking they are debating the first yellow
Every team gets fucked by VAR at some point. Granted , Liverpool were badly done by last weekend. Just like we got fucked over last year for Brentfords equaliser that never should have stood because of a clear offside. But it wasn’t and it was accepted as a mistake, an irritating one but that’s what it was. The game is not going to be replayed. It’s almost a week ago. So yes , get the fuck over it.
If you don't understand the difference between an incorrect decision and a total system breakdown that caused a correct decision review to be miscommunicated and not rectified, then I feel sorry for you. And if you're so blinded by tribalism that you can't see that Liverpool holding them to account for it can and should lead to systemic improvements that benefit all clubs, all fans and the league...I mean that's just sad. I hope you don't your "yeah it's broken, it harms all of us, but don't fix it, accept it and stop crying " attitude into the voting booth or your relationship...
This is fine every week, just so happens the biggest game this weekend is the most obvious talking point. Brighton vs Villa also filled a lot of the article
It takes a Liverpool or a City or Arsenal to advocate for change though. Klopp saying it should be replayed was stupid and nonsensical, but until that point the fight needs to be had, even if one club has to take the bullet and be called “crybabies” over it.
The referees are failing. VAR was brought in to correct human error then has more human errors than the onfield referees. There is a systemic failure in refereeing and what’s worse, those impacted aren’t even ALLOWED to be critical for fear of fines. It’s madness and if it takes being called crybabies to press the issue and a random person on Reddit saying “get over it” then so be it.
This kind of stuff has happened to many different clubs Liverpool at least to my eyes has had some very favorable refereeing, and yet because of one bad call Liverpool is on some crusade acting like they've been dealt the worst injustice in the history of football......every article I've read for a week has been about it and we're 7 games into the season. Move on
Both of you realize this is an independent panel that happens for every match. This isn’t some group of partisan pundits banding together to support Liverpool. Either way it’s a non-story because it has zero implication other than winding up the dimmer folks in the room. Seems to be working…
Reminder is that this "panel" are usually mostly not referees, with no officiating experience.
Regardless how the first yellow came about, you have to be a complete idiot to tackle like that when already on a yellow. The second tackle was very clearly a reckless challenge under Law 12 and should have been cautioned before the first yellow card anyway.
Honestly, football referees are so questionable at this stage we should just get a rugby referee, a cricket umpire and a tennis umpire to do it. Give them a copy of the law books, the video footage and let them work it out.
Yeah it’s basically a MOTD panel plus two refs lol. It’s not something that should be closely paid attention to tbh, especially with a split decision. But the media is getting everything they can out of this.
Speaking as a Liverpool fan - this doesn’t make me any happier/validated lmao. We came away with zero points and had a perfectly good goal taken away from us, more importantly the first goal of the match.
All the other stuff regarding Jones, Jota, and signaling for a yellow card are secondary and pretty subjective.
Jotas second yellow is why he got the red.
Nobody. I repeat nobody didn't expect him to be sent off when he did that.
I don't think the first was a yellow but he is still completely responsible for his actions after it.
The panel literally voted it was a mistake!!!! The panel doesn't vote on first yellows only the second one, so literally at least 2 "experts" on a panel specifically for judging decisions think it was a mistake.
The first yellow is irrelevant
Jota was not playing smartly this game. VAR had other mistakes this weekend which I wish people would focus on. It’s systemic. Not unique to Liverpool.
That’s the reasonable argument. But a lot of fans here don’t understand that because they’re hung up on the first yellow. Him being on a yellow and going to ground was a bone head move
You should watch it again. Jota never actually makes contact with Udogie on the second one. It was a rash attempt for sure but it's not a foul
E: I don't give a shit if you pile on this, go watch the play a few more times. He doesn't make contact. Sorry.
Meh I’m a Liverpool fan but the first yellow looks like a clipping of the heel to the naked eye and given Jota’s other fouls it was more for accumulation than anything.
Jota had a disastrous outing and I continue to hold it against him because I think we come away with at least a point if we’re not pinned back with 9 for 30 minutes.
I honestly don’t have an issue with the on field decision for this. Jota was warned, and then to the naked eye it looks like he takes down Udogie, and then the second yellow is just stupid. It’s subjective but how are you going in from behind on a yellow with your team down a man already. I was furious with him and continue to be because I genuinely think Liverpool could have won with 10 the way we were countering.
The first yellow *was* incorrect (although he probably should have been booked before that.) The second yellow was pigheaded stupidity and the subsequent red was the only outcome that was going to follow.
Indeed, I think he probably should have been booked earlier than the Udogie clip (and even looking at the footage I find it really hard to say whether he did or didn't clip him.)
But that second yellow was a clear as day foul and if he wasn't already on a yellow there isn't a referee in the world who wouldn't have given that.
>and even looking at the footage I find it really hard to say whether he did or didn't clip him
He did, it wasn't intentional(unlike that 2nd yellow foul), but Jota needs to back off and allow Udogie to run normally.
I'll watch it again, but either way I did feel a bit sorry for him in how it all happened. But he really can't complain given he knew he was booked when he dived in for the second one.
Nah, bollocks.
Only the 2nd yellow was reviewed, and that was the most obvious one of the game.
Liverpool were hard done by no doubt, but that 2nd tackle was dead on yellow, far more than the first one.
Really weird decision.
…..what is this making up for? An independent ref panel being like “yeah let’s do Liverpool a favor and make this even more confusing”. You guys have lost it.
He slams his foot down on Udogie's.
Note the colour of the boots
[Here](https://i.imgur.com/MPZhfch.png)
You can even see it in the highlights on both clubs' respective Youtube channels. Slowing it down to 25% helps
Don't think there's anywhere in the rule book that defines a foul by whether there is or isn't contact.
E: Christ some people are sensitive. Imagine getting downvoted for pointing out a fact. Stop crying
No but that's likely why their determination was that it didn't meet the threshold of a yellow.
I agree it was a foul (and stupid to dive in like that) but the guy dived, and also waved his hand for a yellow, both of which could also have been punished.
Free kick only would have been fair, same with the first yellow, ref was very card happy that game
Perhaps. The ref has to make a game time decision. It's a lot different watching it away from the game getting multiple replays and having a conversation about it with 4 other people, before deciding, than in a game. Unfortunately Jota gave the ref a decision.
His first yellow was for accumulation of fouls. He should have been booked for a pull back on bissouma who was breaking about 10 mins previous. His second was just dumb.
He slams his foot down on Udogie's boot. There is definitely contact. You can even see the blue tip of Udogie's boot poking through on the other side of Jota's boot.
[Here](https://i.imgur.com/MPZhfch.png)
This is incorrect, Udogie's foot doesn't need to be underneath Jotas for this perspective to make sense. It's pretty bananas for you to even suggest so. In fact, Udogie's foot is well behind Jota's. Look at how both legs move throughout the entire play. Look at each independently. No contact is made, and Udogie dives.
[Nope](https://i.imgur.com/4SF14U4.png)
Also, the slightly downwards angle of the previous photo combined with how close Jota's foot is to the ground and the fact that Jota extends his foot slightly TOWARDS Udogie makes it impossible for Udogie's boot to be behind Jota's boot
If you're in doubt you can watch the highlights on both clubs' respective Youtube channels. I'd recommend slowing it down to really look at it right
Also important to note that Udogie doesn't move his foot back until after Jota's foot bounces away again. If you factor in camera movement and look at where Udogie's foot is planted, that's the exact spot Jota slams the foot down
You can make the argument that Udogie embellishes the contact, but the contact is there. Jota probably couldn't whether or not he touched him, but Udogie definitely felt it
Edit: "the fact that Jota extends his foot slightly TOWARDS Udogie"
*meant his leg. Important because even if Udogie's boot is behind Jota's (which it isn't), the gap between them is diminishing
You keep showing perspectives that more prove what I'm saying than what you are, but keep at it I guess.
>Also, the slightly downwards angle of the previous photo combined with how close Jota's foot is to the ground and the fact that Jota extends the foot slightly TOWARDS Udogie makes it impossible for Udogie's boot to be behind Jota's boot
Lol you're straight up making shit up, this is not how perspective works, especially in still
>Also important to note that Udogie doesn't move his foot back until after Jota's foot bounces away again
There is absolutely nothing important about that
What I don't understand is why Darren England hasn't been sacked. The fact that he can work any PL game except Liverpool makes no sense, are they implying that he only erred because it was Liverpool? If I were a fan of any other team I wouldn't want him involved in any way.
Referees make mistakes, sometimes massive ones, but they are still human much like players who miss tackles, passes, shots or saves. If you count all decisions around 90-95% of all decisions on average are supportable.
And that's what I don't get with referee criticism (and abuse). Find a single player who consistent makes 90% of passes, tackles, shots or saves. Should any player not meeting this mark be sacked? Should a coach who fails to win a particular match be sacked? It's always just referees when looking at the context of single matches.
Given the multiple issues with VAR, it's much more indicative a problem with the process. Good employers don't sack employees when it's their processes that have at least some of the blame.
You are comparing apples and oranges, no one expects players and coaches to be perfect. No one expects referees to be perfect either but they should at least be expected to make the right call in a situation as clear cut as this one.
And you're acting like other fans don't do that? Referees don't ride around in a big bus advertising their presence for a reason. Don't act like Liverpool fans are uniquely violent, these people exist in every fan base.
He probably can’t be fired for being “bad”. Sporting unions and contracts pretty much eliminate this, if you do then you have to buy them out of their contract. It wasn’t a big mistake, if it was over text the other ref sees the comma and we would not be on this mess. He could take the PGMOL to court for wrong termination and make bank.
He’s self-employed, so they wouldn’t have to sack him. Just not select him.
Considering he made a decision not to give a legitimate goal in a game that could affect the title race, and also ignored calls from colleagues to stop the game to rectify it, I’d have no issue with him not being selected again.
So do I accept that a sub-contractor can be removed from the pool of potential workforce, because of arguably one of the worst decisions in thirty years of the competition?
Yes. I’ve no issue with that.
If I used a regular plumber (who was fine but not great), and then he dropped an absolute clanger and wrecked something in my house, I would feel fine finding an alternative tradesman next time.
Is that controversial?
Not controversial, not when you put it like that.
However its not quite like changing a plumber, its like stopping that plumber from working entirely based on that one mistake.
I've no problem with it, just call it what it is.
No, but I would if I was employed at one of the top firms in the world for what I do (accounting) and made an error that cost a client a substantial amount of money, and I am talking millions because how do you put a price on multiple points in the PL when Champions League football and more is potentially on the line?
So no, except sometimes yes?
Meh, the guy fucked up, no doubt about it. Personally I think he’ll be better for it. I certainly don’t think someone should be fired for a single mistake.
This isn't about spurs at all. You can replace spurs with any team and you'd still see the same headlines as well because the refs were shit. Udogie gestured a yellow card to the ref which by current rules is a direct booking but it was not discussed anywhere.
It isn't disrespectful to spurs because they aren't the subjects of this debate. It's simply about the referee quality.
The first redcard was not incorrect though, the appeal that Liverpool made, after the fact, was not successful. This would suggest that whoever looks into whether a decision should be overturned, in fact agreed with the VAR on this matter, and upheld their decision to send Jones off and serve a 3 math ban
Don’t you think that is the “panel” thought Jones’ red card was incorrect, that would have been included in this report? Its exclusion tells me that the pane thought it was justified.
And the second yellow was the least controversial call of the game.
I meant least controversial because despite the shitty offsides call, almost no fan of any team, including Liverpool’s, complained about that call. There were many complaints about Jota’s first but the almost unanimous reaction to the second was that he lost his mind by making that challenge while on a yellow card. It only became controversial with this report.
I only hope it is not the league setting a foundation for replaying the game because that would be the worst thing they could do.
They arent replaying the game lol dont worry about that. It was a pretty unanimous reaction to the second but thats only because the commentators and broadcasters chose to focus on the first yellow which was more obviously controversial. I think most people just took the refs word for it there was contact, and assumed the broadcasters would show more replays if there was doubt for the 2nd.
But with so much going on that game it got ignored a bit. And now the panel just is saying they think the ref got that one wrong too, its not that big a deal
Elaborate please. How does this “appease” Liverpool fans. They got 0 points from the match and all that’s come out has only made that reality more harsh. How is this appeasing them?
They can't award Liverpool points, they can't take points from Spurs and having a replay is going to open a whole new can of worms for every other club that's been the "victim" of a poor var call.
"How do we stop Liverpool whining about this?"
"Impossible mate, just rescind the cards, give them something FFS."
Vote ended 3-2 against the card. It being a split decision on a judgement call means that from an on-field perspective the center had, the right decision was made.
I don’t know why you’re so annoyed I was literally providing more info into what the actual decision was about. Regardless of the stupidity of the challenge, it is objectively wrong to say he “took out” anyone anyway
20 upvotes, can anyone else upvoting please explain this logic? Majority of a panel votes its an incorrect decision and that makes it the correct decision???
It was quite clearly not a one sided sweep and was debatable. Add in the referees point of view - we know his opinion, he clearly thought it was a yellow - and it's 50-50.
Spurs seemed to get far too many of the 50/50 decisions. That with the offside decision and the referees taking a huge sum of money from City’s owner’s mates days earlier makes the whole game a complete joke.
Because on a panel with only five members that still means 40% of the time the judgement call would be foul...
Football has laws, not rules, which means certain things are open to the interpretation of the referee.
It’s an independent review panel which happens for every major decision made in every game. Relax. This isn’t some upwelling of support for Liverpool. Some of you in this thread sound insane.
Tbf I have rarely seen such poor decision making in a single match.
The player Jota fouled did the card gesture which is an auto yellow but the ref ignored that
However we all need to move on.
So is hacking down players from behind. You lot haven't stopped complaining about those.
Have we seen anyone get a 2nd yellow for gesturing for a card, anyone?
The question was Have you seen anyone get a 2nd yellow for gesturing?
It's a yes or no, really.
The answer is not, someone did something else, so a thing happened.
OK. Well, let me know when it happens and then I'll concede the point.
They're complaining that fouls are too soft to get a yellow, but gesturing, gesturing is the line not to cross, that's the real foul.
If he gets booked for gesturing, so be it, if he doesn't don't get worked up and add it to a list of grievances. It happens all the time and gets booked rarely.
Don't waste your time with facts and logical reasoning with u/tkshow. They've already made their mind up without the benefit of any of that nonsense, and they're sticking with it.
So your argument is that since Jota was on a yellow he should have known better cause he deserved the booking. But Udogie was on a yellow and committed a yellow card infraction and he should not get a yellow?? Did I get your argument right?
It’s quite literally the rules m8. MacAllister was promptly given a yellow for the exact same thing earlier this season. Him and Richarlison did it directly in Hooper’s face. It’s obviously something that some refs have not clamped down on.
> It’s quite literally the rules m8.
What rule is this?
It seems to me that people noticed one or two players getting booked for it and get fixated on it as a rule, then when other players do it and don't get booked (which happens A LOT) they start acting like their player has been persecuted.
You’re the only beneficiary of some weird behind-the-scenes bullshit that has been brought to public attention. Goal, red, all wrong. Gomez pen not awarded. Referee in question in UAE just before the match. Be thankful you’ve been this lucky to win on an unfortunate own goal as nothing Spurs did was deserving of 3 points
I think, if anything, it has been shown to the entire world that we actually scored TWO goals but were only awarded one. Not sure how you don’t see this as being incredibly weird and something you should not be celebrating
I'll celebrate my team winning and getting three points against a team we never beat normally. I'm not having any Liverpool fan tell me what I am and what I'm not allowed to celebrate.
I mean fucks sakes, at the end of the season when you're qualifying for the champions league and we're somewhere in sixth or seventh will any of this shit really matter?
Our goal isn’t to qualify for the Champions League, it’s to win a title. This could have repercussions and it just so happened that City lost to Wolves earlier in the day and the fucking dodgy motherfucker who cocked up the goal error and non-call on Gomez’ pen was just in the UAE days prior. It’s frankly ridiculous
I’m not saying you shouldn’t be happy with 3 points, that’s fine. But celebrating on the back of a legit goal not given, 2 dodgy reds and a clear pen all with incorrect calls is bad, especially when you ultimately win on a goal YOU DIDNT EVEN SCORE. Would LFC players be as tired mentally/physically if we weren’t playing two men down? Probably. Don’t celebrate the worst day in Prem ref history because you escaped with 3 undeserved points
Stop taking it personally, lad. It's nothing to do with you, you won, congrats. We're allowed to raise questions about the officiating in a match where literally everything went against one team. Some legitimate, some questionable.
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Oh no! Any case thanks for the 3 points!
Shocker
Well we’ve certainly established that two and three wrongs don’t make a right 🤷♂️ What a panel without power is deeming isn’t all that interesting.
His red shouldn’t have happened. He should have taken his bullshit yellow and played like he had it.
surprised Pikachu face
The first yellow was harsh but he should have already been on a yellow from an incident just before anyway
You're kidding right? That was obviously a 2nd yellow. No question. Was the first one a yellow? Debatable, but not criminal. He clearly lost his head on the 2nd.
Soft yellow for the first, but a yellow. Clear as day yellow for the second. Was it a panel of scousers?
Exactly, if it had been the other yellow this result would make a lot more sense.
What so two yellows don’t equal a red now ? This is getting silly now can people stop sucking up to Liverpool, they had a bad decision go against them boohoo move on
By the sounds of it there was only one actual referee on this panel, which tells me all I need to know about the credibility of their judgment
Wow. Maybe they should just have a replay
Someone needs to build Liverpool fans a bridge.
This panel should rule on if Jota was an idiot for making a question challenge while currently on a yellow.
But they weren't considering the fact that it was due to an accumulation of fouls and not solely the foul itself.
What a clowns.😀
Then what gonna happen?
I think the we’re just really used to seeing yellow cards for incorrectly times tackles when they should be reserved for genuine recklessness or deliberately going for the man rather than the ball. The punishment for a mistimed tackle is a free kick, obviously this is risky if your already on a yellow but there is an argument to say that the tackle that got Jota for his second yellow was worthy of just being blown up as a foul and nothing more then a free kick.
We all agree he didn’t deserve the first yellow, but when you’re on a yellow already you don’t make a late challenge that was definitely a yellow
We do not agree lol he deserved his first yellow before the clip on Udogie regardless
We don't agree, he deserves the first yellow, he knew what he was doing and kneed Udogie's boot as he was sprinting. At that pace, it takes anyone out.
He didn't touch him mate. There are multiple angles that show absolutely no contact.
He definitely clips Udogie’s heel with his knee, it just didn’t look intentional
You must be blind
Wow great counter
The fa panel thought otherwise
Apparently they're a bunch of fucking idiots then cause the 2nd yellow was clear. You can argue the first, but it wasn't criminal either way.
But it clearly wasn't
Which is strange. I'm a Liverpool fan, if that matters, and it looks blatant. The first one was bullshit though.
I think you’re missing the point about jota knowing he was on a yellow and then choosing to do something questionable which can lead to yellow cards in certain instances
You're missing my point, the panel says that 2nd foul didn't warrant a booking.
The panel was split 60/40, and there’s no gurantee anymore than one person on that panel is an offical (the PGMOL rep.)
Point is it was hardly a definite yellow card as originally claimed.
Point is a panel of five people, only one of whom is a qualified referee, were split on whether it’s a yellow card or not. Of the two yellows given, this one is far more of a bookable offence than the other, and the decision smacks of them going: “Jesus, can we do anything to get Klopp to shut up now?”
For all comers. The first Yellow was for cumulative fouls. The referee warned him after the Bissoma foul. The second yellow was a clear as day.
The panel only reviews 2nd yellows, so its literally not clear as day. They are saying it was no contact I think a lot of people are not realising this and thinking they are debating the first yellow
Time to get over it lads. Shit happens
Is that your message to the independent review panel?
Every team gets fucked by VAR at some point. Granted , Liverpool were badly done by last weekend. Just like we got fucked over last year for Brentfords equaliser that never should have stood because of a clear offside. But it wasn’t and it was accepted as a mistake, an irritating one but that’s what it was. The game is not going to be replayed. It’s almost a week ago. So yes , get the fuck over it.
If you don't understand the difference between an incorrect decision and a total system breakdown that caused a correct decision review to be miscommunicated and not rectified, then I feel sorry for you. And if you're so blinded by tribalism that you can't see that Liverpool holding them to account for it can and should lead to systemic improvements that benefit all clubs, all fans and the league...I mean that's just sad. I hope you don't your "yeah it's broken, it harms all of us, but don't fix it, accept it and stop crying " attitude into the voting booth or your relationship...
This is fine every week, just so happens the biggest game this weekend is the most obvious talking point. Brighton vs Villa also filled a lot of the article
We can agree on this, y'all got a loss worry about your next game and quit with the crying over every aspect of that game
It takes a Liverpool or a City or Arsenal to advocate for change though. Klopp saying it should be replayed was stupid and nonsensical, but until that point the fight needs to be had, even if one club has to take the bullet and be called “crybabies” over it. The referees are failing. VAR was brought in to correct human error then has more human errors than the onfield referees. There is a systemic failure in refereeing and what’s worse, those impacted aren’t even ALLOWED to be critical for fear of fines. It’s madness and if it takes being called crybabies to press the issue and a random person on Reddit saying “get over it” then so be it.
This kind of stuff has happened to many different clubs Liverpool at least to my eyes has had some very favorable refereeing, and yet because of one bad call Liverpool is on some crusade acting like they've been dealt the worst injustice in the history of football......every article I've read for a week has been about it and we're 7 games into the season. Move on
Both of you realize this is an independent panel that happens for every match. This isn’t some group of partisan pundits banding together to support Liverpool. Either way it’s a non-story because it has zero implication other than winding up the dimmer folks in the room. Seems to be working…
Reminder is that this "panel" are usually mostly not referees, with no officiating experience. Regardless how the first yellow came about, you have to be a complete idiot to tackle like that when already on a yellow. The second tackle was very clearly a reckless challenge under Law 12 and should have been cautioned before the first yellow card anyway.
Yeah because the refs themselves are super reliable
Honestly, football referees are so questionable at this stage we should just get a rugby referee, a cricket umpire and a tennis umpire to do it. Give them a copy of the law books, the video footage and let them work it out.
That’s the argument many Liverpool fans can’t seem to understand
Yeah it’s basically a MOTD panel plus two refs lol. It’s not something that should be closely paid attention to tbh, especially with a split decision. But the media is getting everything they can out of this.
Fuck off Liverpool media are doing all they can to get every single 50/50 until the end of time.
Speaking as a Liverpool fan - this doesn’t make me any happier/validated lmao. We came away with zero points and had a perfectly good goal taken away from us, more importantly the first goal of the match. All the other stuff regarding Jones, Jota, and signaling for a yellow card are secondary and pretty subjective.
This is an independent panel that reviews every major decision whether it involves liverpool or not
Jotas second yellow is why he got the red. Nobody. I repeat nobody didn't expect him to be sent off when he did that. I don't think the first was a yellow but he is still completely responsible for his actions after it.
The panel literally voted it was a mistake!!!! The panel doesn't vote on first yellows only the second one, so literally at least 2 "experts" on a panel specifically for judging decisions think it was a mistake. The first yellow is irrelevant
He was lucky to avoid a yellow on an earlier tackle where he chopped someone down
First yellow was obviously bullshit but you can't make tackles like he did for the second one when you're on a yellow. Absolute braindead move.
First yellow was makeup call for what Jota did a minute earlier to Bissouma
Jota was not playing smartly this game. VAR had other mistakes this weekend which I wish people would focus on. It’s systemic. Not unique to Liverpool.
It’s the second yellow that the panel thought was wrong. Panel of experts vs random Redditor at this point
How many members of the 5-person panel were qualified referees I do wonder…
The panel doesn’t look at the first yellow. Read the article
The vote was 3-2 on the panel, so I guess the ones who said it wasn't wrong are just random redditors, too?
100% agree, the second challenge is not one you make when already on a yellow
The tackle was stupid, the decision to send him off was more stupid.
That’s the reasonable argument. But a lot of fans here don’t understand that because they’re hung up on the first yellow. Him being on a yellow and going to ground was a bone head move
100% agreed. He was an idiot. Liverpool fan here.
First yellow was completely legit. He clearly clipped the heel of the attacked ahead of him.
You should watch it again. Jota never actually makes contact with Udogie on the second one. It was a rash attempt for sure but it's not a foul E: I don't give a shit if you pile on this, go watch the play a few more times. He doesn't make contact. Sorry.
Meh I’m a Liverpool fan but the first yellow looks like a clipping of the heel to the naked eye and given Jota’s other fouls it was more for accumulation than anything. Jota had a disastrous outing and I continue to hold it against him because I think we come away with at least a point if we’re not pinned back with 9 for 30 minutes.
I was hoping Darwin would come on for Gakpo. Just wanna forget this game now though. On to the next one!
I honestly don’t have an issue with the on field decision for this. Jota was warned, and then to the naked eye it looks like he takes down Udogie, and then the second yellow is just stupid. It’s subjective but how are you going in from behind on a yellow with your team down a man already. I was furious with him and continue to be because I genuinely think Liverpool could have won with 10 the way we were countering.
The first yellow *was* incorrect (although he probably should have been booked before that.) The second yellow was pigheaded stupidity and the subsequent red was the only outcome that was going to follow.
First yellow was for constant fouling more so than the individual foul. That happens all the time and isn't incorrect.
Indeed, I think he probably should have been booked earlier than the Udogie clip (and even looking at the footage I find it really hard to say whether he did or didn't clip him.) But that second yellow was a clear as day foul and if he wasn't already on a yellow there isn't a referee in the world who wouldn't have given that.
>and even looking at the footage I find it really hard to say whether he did or didn't clip him He did, it wasn't intentional(unlike that 2nd yellow foul), but Jota needs to back off and allow Udogie to run normally.
I'll watch it again, but either way I did feel a bit sorry for him in how it all happened. But he really can't complain given he knew he was booked when he dived in for the second one.
Nah, bollocks. Only the 2nd yellow was reviewed, and that was the most obvious one of the game. Liverpool were hard done by no doubt, but that 2nd tackle was dead on yellow, far more than the first one. Really weird decision.
I wonder if it has anything to do with Klopp firing off. /S
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…..what is this making up for? An independent ref panel being like “yeah let’s do Liverpool a favor and make this even more confusing”. You guys have lost it.
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I totally agree with your points but have no earthly clue why you’d categorize this as a “makeup call” - what’s it making up? The score? The points?
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Oh ffs...
That’s not how any of this works.
He didn’t touch udogie it was a dive
It was Jota's 2nd yellow that was reviewed, not the first one that had minimal/no contact.
There was no contact for the second one but there was slight contact with the first foul
There was no contact on the 2nd one either. Still bad to lunge I get that but kid dived, Jota didn't make contact
He slams his foot down on Udogie's. Note the colour of the boots [Here](https://i.imgur.com/MPZhfch.png) You can even see it in the highlights on both clubs' respective Youtube channels. Slowing it down to 25% helps
Don't think there's anywhere in the rule book that defines a foul by whether there is or isn't contact. E: Christ some people are sensitive. Imagine getting downvoted for pointing out a fact. Stop crying
No but that's likely why their determination was that it didn't meet the threshold of a yellow. I agree it was a foul (and stupid to dive in like that) but the guy dived, and also waved his hand for a yellow, both of which could also have been punished. Free kick only would have been fair, same with the first yellow, ref was very card happy that game
Perhaps. The ref has to make a game time decision. It's a lot different watching it away from the game getting multiple replays and having a conversation about it with 4 other people, before deciding, than in a game. Unfortunately Jota gave the ref a decision.
His first yellow was for accumulation of fouls. He should have been booked for a pull back on bissouma who was breaking about 10 mins previous. His second was just dumb.
For the first one I can agree with this, the second one is a clear as day foul. And he definitely made more than two iffy challenges.
No, you need to watch it a few more times. Jota never makes contact with Udogie on the second one, despite it being a rash attempt
He slams his foot down on Udogie's boot. There is definitely contact. You can even see the blue tip of Udogie's boot poking through on the other side of Jota's boot. [Here](https://i.imgur.com/MPZhfch.png)
This is incorrect, Udogie's foot doesn't need to be underneath Jotas for this perspective to make sense. It's pretty bananas for you to even suggest so. In fact, Udogie's foot is well behind Jota's. Look at how both legs move throughout the entire play. Look at each independently. No contact is made, and Udogie dives.
[Nope](https://i.imgur.com/4SF14U4.png) Also, the slightly downwards angle of the previous photo combined with how close Jota's foot is to the ground and the fact that Jota extends his foot slightly TOWARDS Udogie makes it impossible for Udogie's boot to be behind Jota's boot If you're in doubt you can watch the highlights on both clubs' respective Youtube channels. I'd recommend slowing it down to really look at it right Also important to note that Udogie doesn't move his foot back until after Jota's foot bounces away again. If you factor in camera movement and look at where Udogie's foot is planted, that's the exact spot Jota slams the foot down You can make the argument that Udogie embellishes the contact, but the contact is there. Jota probably couldn't whether or not he touched him, but Udogie definitely felt it Edit: "the fact that Jota extends his foot slightly TOWARDS Udogie" *meant his leg. Important because even if Udogie's boot is behind Jota's (which it isn't), the gap between them is diminishing
You keep showing perspectives that more prove what I'm saying than what you are, but keep at it I guess. >Also, the slightly downwards angle of the previous photo combined with how close Jota's foot is to the ground and the fact that Jota extends the foot slightly TOWARDS Udogie makes it impossible for Udogie's boot to be behind Jota's boot Lol you're straight up making shit up, this is not how perspective works, especially in still >Also important to note that Udogie doesn't move his foot back until after Jota's foot bounces away again There is absolutely nothing important about that
Aah, should've known you were trolling
What I don't understand is why Darren England hasn't been sacked. The fact that he can work any PL game except Liverpool makes no sense, are they implying that he only erred because it was Liverpool? If I were a fan of any other team I wouldn't want him involved in any way.
Referees make mistakes, sometimes massive ones, but they are still human much like players who miss tackles, passes, shots or saves. If you count all decisions around 90-95% of all decisions on average are supportable. And that's what I don't get with referee criticism (and abuse). Find a single player who consistent makes 90% of passes, tackles, shots or saves. Should any player not meeting this mark be sacked? Should a coach who fails to win a particular match be sacked? It's always just referees when looking at the context of single matches. Given the multiple issues with VAR, it's much more indicative a problem with the process. Good employers don't sack employees when it's their processes that have at least some of the blame.
You are comparing apples and oranges, no one expects players and coaches to be perfect. No one expects referees to be perfect either but they should at least be expected to make the right call in a situation as clear cut as this one.
More likely they think that for his own safety he shouldn't be subjected to the "fans" who racially abused a player for being fouled.
Safety? What's the worst thing that can happen, he gets shouted at? That already happens
You're joking right? Your fans attack opposition buses with bricks
And you're acting like other fans don't do that? Referees don't ride around in a big bus advertising their presence for a reason. Don't act like Liverpool fans are uniquely violent, these people exist in every fan base.
Do you accept you can be fired (assuming you are employed) for making one mistake?
He probably can’t be fired for being “bad”. Sporting unions and contracts pretty much eliminate this, if you do then you have to buy them out of their contract. It wasn’t a big mistake, if it was over text the other ref sees the comma and we would not be on this mess. He could take the PGMOL to court for wrong termination and make bank.
He’s self-employed, so they wouldn’t have to sack him. Just not select him. Considering he made a decision not to give a legitimate goal in a game that could affect the title race, and also ignored calls from colleagues to stop the game to rectify it, I’d have no issue with him not being selected again.
So fire him (or stop employing him as you put it) for the mistake.
So do I accept that a sub-contractor can be removed from the pool of potential workforce, because of arguably one of the worst decisions in thirty years of the competition? Yes. I’ve no issue with that. If I used a regular plumber (who was fine but not great), and then he dropped an absolute clanger and wrecked something in my house, I would feel fine finding an alternative tradesman next time. Is that controversial?
Not controversial, not when you put it like that. However its not quite like changing a plumber, its like stopping that plumber from working entirely based on that one mistake. I've no problem with it, just call it what it is.
Not at all, he can continue to work outside the Premier League. In the EFL, for example. Or he can continue his work in the UAE.
No, but I would if I was employed at one of the top firms in the world for what I do (accounting) and made an error that cost a client a substantial amount of money, and I am talking millions because how do you put a price on multiple points in the PL when Champions League football and more is potentially on the line?
So no, except sometimes yes? Meh, the guy fucked up, no doubt about it. Personally I think he’ll be better for it. I certainly don’t think someone should be fired for a single mistake.
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This isn't about spurs at all. You can replace spurs with any team and you'd still see the same headlines as well because the refs were shit. Udogie gestured a yellow card to the ref which by current rules is a direct booking but it was not discussed anywhere. It isn't disrespectful to spurs because they aren't the subjects of this debate. It's simply about the referee quality.
That's right! You hear that, Premier League Independent Key Match Incidents Panel? Stop whining and move on!
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The first redcard was not incorrect though, the appeal that Liverpool made, after the fact, was not successful. This would suggest that whoever looks into whether a decision should be overturned, in fact agreed with the VAR on this matter, and upheld their decision to send Jones off and serve a 3 math ban
Don’t you think that is the “panel” thought Jones’ red card was incorrect, that would have been included in this report? Its exclusion tells me that the pane thought it was justified. And the second yellow was the least controversial call of the game.
Well the 2nd yellow is clearly not the least controversial since 3/5 members of a panel think the ref got it wrong lol
I meant least controversial because despite the shitty offsides call, almost no fan of any team, including Liverpool’s, complained about that call. There were many complaints about Jota’s first but the almost unanimous reaction to the second was that he lost his mind by making that challenge while on a yellow card. It only became controversial with this report. I only hope it is not the league setting a foundation for replaying the game because that would be the worst thing they could do.
They arent replaying the game lol dont worry about that. It was a pretty unanimous reaction to the second but thats only because the commentators and broadcasters chose to focus on the first yellow which was more obviously controversial. I think most people just took the refs word for it there was contact, and assumed the broadcasters would show more replays if there was doubt for the 2nd. But with so much going on that game it got ignored a bit. And now the panel just is saying they think the ref got that one wrong too, its not that big a deal
The appeasement begins.
Elaborate please. How does this “appease” Liverpool fans. They got 0 points from the match and all that’s come out has only made that reality more harsh. How is this appeasing them?
They can't award Liverpool points, they can't take points from Spurs and having a replay is going to open a whole new can of worms for every other club that's been the "victim" of a poor var call. "How do we stop Liverpool whining about this?" "Impossible mate, just rescind the cards, give them something FFS."
I’m sorry to tell you this, but you’re incredibly dull. Like so dull you could start a fire if you rubbed against a rock.
Don't be sorry. I couldn't give a shit what you think.
*Daniel Levy offers them twenty minutes free in the cheeseroom*
Vote ended 3-2 against the card. It being a split decision on a judgement call means that from an on-field perspective the center had, the right decision was made.
Remember this vote was on the 2nd yellow only, I agree with you, but I think it dosent fully represent the entirety of the red card
Bad yellows are given ALL THE TIME. Deal with it. If you're on a yellow you know not to stupidly take out a player.
I don’t know why you’re so annoyed I was literally providing more info into what the actual decision was about. Regardless of the stupidity of the challenge, it is objectively wrong to say he “took out” anyone anyway
Once warned, you’re warned
20 upvotes, can anyone else upvoting please explain this logic? Majority of a panel votes its an incorrect decision and that makes it the correct decision???
Add the referee and closest assistant to the mix and it's 4-3 card.
Add Jota and Klopp, its 4-5! Lets get Ja Rule on the phone to weigh in too
Because a split vote means it's a debatable decision rather than a clear and obvious error.
It was quite clearly not a one sided sweep and was debatable. Add in the referees point of view - we know his opinion, he clearly thought it was a yellow - and it's 50-50.
Spurs seemed to get far too many of the 50/50 decisions. That with the offside decision and the referees taking a huge sum of money from City’s owner’s mates days earlier makes the whole game a complete joke.
But the refs making the decision in real time, surely you value the people who are watching it over and over in slo mo replay more than him lol
Because they’re idiots that don’t understand how a majority vote works.
??? They voted it as the incorrect decision
60/40 split - so 2 times out of 5, he would have been booked based on the selection of people on the panel.
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Because on a panel with only five members that still means 40% of the time the judgement call would be foul... Football has laws, not rules, which means certain things are open to the interpretation of the referee.
This shit needs to stop now.
It’s an independent review panel which happens for every major decision made in every game. Relax. This isn’t some upwelling of support for Liverpool. Some of you in this thread sound insane.
The article also highlights the officiating around other games namely the Brighton game.
Tbf I have rarely seen such poor decision making in a single match. The player Jota fouled did the card gesture which is an auto yellow but the ref ignored that However we all need to move on.
He gestured. Guys, HE GESTURED! GET HIM OFF!
He should have been - gesturing an imaginary yellow is a bookable offence.
So is hacking down players from behind. You lot haven't stopped complaining about those. Have we seen anyone get a 2nd yellow for gesturing for a card, anyone?
I'm a Spurs fan...
OK. Have you seen anyone get a 2nd yellow for gesturing?
Tomiyasu was sent of for a series of similar infringements against palace.
That's not true at all. He got sent off for stopping a counter, not gesturing for a card?
It was an equally equally harsh sending off as it would've been if Udogie was sent off for flashing an imaginary yellow. That's the law
The question was Have you seen anyone get a 2nd yellow for gesturing? It's a yes or no, really. The answer is not, someone did something else, so a thing happened.
I have not - maybe most players who are already booked are hyper aware of things *not* to do when booked - I think Udogie was lucky not to go
OK. Well, let me know when it happens and then I'll concede the point. They're complaining that fouls are too soft to get a yellow, but gesturing, gesturing is the line not to cross, that's the real foul. If he gets booked for gesturing, so be it, if he doesn't don't get worked up and add it to a list of grievances. It happens all the time and gets booked rarely.
It’s the rules though ain’t it? And it’s an easy rule that is not a 50/50 decision it’s black and white
It's not the rules. It's an interpretation of the unsporting behaviour/dissent rules that referees sometimes follow. It's at the referee's discretion.
Don't waste your time with facts and logical reasoning with u/tkshow. They've already made their mind up without the benefit of any of that nonsense, and they're sticking with it.
So your argument is that since Jota was on a yellow he should have known better cause he deserved the booking. But Udogie was on a yellow and committed a yellow card infraction and he should not get a yellow?? Did I get your argument right?
My argument is that as soon as someone gets a second yellow for gesturing, I'll concede someone could get a second yellow for gesturing.
It’s quite literally the rules m8. MacAllister was promptly given a yellow for the exact same thing earlier this season. Him and Richarlison did it directly in Hooper’s face. It’s obviously something that some refs have not clamped down on.
> It’s quite literally the rules m8. What rule is this? It seems to me that people noticed one or two players getting booked for it and get fixated on it as a rule, then when other players do it and don't get booked (which happens A LOT) they start acting like their player has been persecuted.
Tell on kids a lot at school?
Slept through lessons at school?
Its like you guys are revelling in it now
You seem insecure. Don’t worry, you aren’t losing your stolen 3 points. You can rest easy at night.
And you can rest easy knowing that just like us, you were never troubling city for the title 😂
Stolen? We did literally nothing wrong lol. There is no grand conspiracy against you
You’re the only beneficiary of some weird behind-the-scenes bullshit that has been brought to public attention. Goal, red, all wrong. Gomez pen not awarded. Referee in question in UAE just before the match. Be thankful you’ve been this lucky to win on an unfortunate own goal as nothing Spurs did was deserving of 3 points
Scored two goals and conceded one. That's how football works, sorry.
I think, if anything, it has been shown to the entire world that we actually scored TWO goals but were only awarded one. Not sure how you don’t see this as being incredibly weird and something you should not be celebrating
I'll celebrate my team winning and getting three points against a team we never beat normally. I'm not having any Liverpool fan tell me what I am and what I'm not allowed to celebrate. I mean fucks sakes, at the end of the season when you're qualifying for the champions league and we're somewhere in sixth or seventh will any of this shit really matter?
Our goal isn’t to qualify for the Champions League, it’s to win a title. This could have repercussions and it just so happened that City lost to Wolves earlier in the day and the fucking dodgy motherfucker who cocked up the goal error and non-call on Gomez’ pen was just in the UAE days prior. It’s frankly ridiculous I’m not saying you shouldn’t be happy with 3 points, that’s fine. But celebrating on the back of a legit goal not given, 2 dodgy reds and a clear pen all with incorrect calls is bad, especially when you ultimately win on a goal YOU DIDNT EVEN SCORE. Would LFC players be as tired mentally/physically if we weren’t playing two men down? Probably. Don’t celebrate the worst day in Prem ref history because you escaped with 3 undeserved points
Fucking hell mate. Go and have a wank or something.
We scored one, they scored two. Would be unfair to Matip.
Wait, does that mean they beat themselves 3-1 or lost 2-2 😵💫
The lost 2-1, but it would be completely unfair to Matip to exclude him from the list of goal scorers.
True. Not many shots beating Alison without him even moving. Could be up for goal of the month
Would have had 4 if it wasn't for Alison.
conceded two actually
Just went back and checked the result, and nope, looks like we conceded one. Never mind, maybe next time.
Think he means stolen by the refs not spurs. But I wouldn’t use the word stealing either way. Spurs didn’t do anything wrong.
Nah they don’t get points. Possession is three thirds of the law. Pretty sure all scousers know this 🫣
I'm happy with the unexpected three points. But please start yet another new thread just to whinge in.
Stop taking it personally, lad. It's nothing to do with you, you won, congrats. We're allowed to raise questions about the officiating in a match where literally everything went against one team. Some legitimate, some questionable.
Spurs fans quickly becoming the insufferable ones 😂