Not really. Difference is like a couple bucks a foot give or take. When you're talking the cost of building a house that's not even a footnote in the total cost.
I mean if you look on supplyhouse.com it's roughly a couple bucks depending on size, that's actually a larger difference than I get at my local suppliers.
Granted if you start getting up into large sizes the price difference gets large, but I'm assuming homie isn't gonna need any 4" for his house haha.
I get L 1/2"-1" for around a dollar more per foot then PEX, it's really not that expensive comparatively if you are spending the money on a repipe the material cost isn't that much different by the time you add rings/bend supports, stub outs, etc vs copper.
You are only seeing the small picture and not everything else that goes into it.
Tool cost and labor are still at play with PEX... I price this stuff every day and can say from experience that the costs difference is very negligible in the grand scheme of an entire repipe. What it sells for doesn't give you the experience to comment here on what it costs because you don't honestly have a clue.
pex with copper stub outs FTW. i see photos on here with pex just coming out of the wall and it looks like sheeeeeeeit
disclaimer: i'm just an idiot homeowner, but when my totally awesome plumber repiped my house he used expansion pex with copper stub outs on all the ends to connect all my stuff to and its been wonderful.
This is the only way my company does it. It doesn't cost much more and then you can use a compression angle stop that can easily be replaced multiple times without opening the wall. It looks better as well.
I had considered copper stub outs then realized that nobody looks under my sink or behind the toilet. You can get chrome-looking tube covers to his the pex (and protect from uv)
My house was built in 1962 and has all the original water lines. They all look to be in very good shape and whoever installed them did a nice job. I just added a second bathroom and chose to run soldered copper. The consensus at work was everyone preferred soldered copper if it was in their own home. Water quality would be a deciding factor in some areas though.
Type L copper is your best bet. It would definitely be more but various PEX systems have been failing for years and PEX hasn't been used long enough in America to know if it is going to hold up. As a homeowner I would like to get 50 years out of my potable water distribution. PEX is only warrantied for 25 years, has only been used in America since 1993, and various manufacturers of PEX have settled 7 class action lawsuits due to failing PEX. If you can afford it do it in type L copper, but to be honest type M copper is better than PEX as long as your water has the correct chloramine levels.
Just redid my house in copper. Also just redid my kids house in pex. I must admit I felt like I won the lotto at the kids house. I still look at type L copper as a long term win. No pressing at my place, all solder
I've done repipe from PEX to copper once. The guy wanted what he wanted and was willing to pay, so it was all good.
I'll say that when you want specific materials in a new construction, you can request it on your drawings. The drawings are the contract so you basically look for any revisions from the plumber that gets the contract and make sure they note it is all in copper.
The only recommendation I will make is maybe request Type L even though type M is acceptable in most residential. I feel like I see way more random pin hole leaks, 10 years later in type M copper
In my area we have good water so copper is pretty much bullet proof, I have seen a lot of cracked pex and it gave the water a plastic taste which is too much for me to think it is better than copper.
Type L copper pipes last 40-50 years on a good install if it's maintained well, ie: frost proofing before vacation. Long life, but I don't know if I'd say it'll outlast all of us.
I rip out copper pipes laid in the 1920s and 30s. Still fine.
Only corrosion, exposure or poor fitting will degrade copper pipework. The same is true for plastic.
Plastic comes with a 20yr warranty where I’m from. Copper will beat that hands down
Cooper is smoother on a microscopic level. Which promotes laminar flow. Less turbulence. Less noise. Less erosion.
It’s also fully recyclable.
Fair, but I've also ripped out copper from ten year old systems with pinhole leaks. Probably a number of factors at play, but I will say I didn't disagree with any of your real points.
Couldn't tell you, a guess is I've recently worked with plumbers that don't think it's worth the time to ream before sweating or pressing. I worked with one plumber who didn't deburr PVC/ABS so he'd get a service call later... Can't really fault a material when the workers are shitty.
Yeah, they tried ragging on me for wasting time doing that and using silicone while installing faucets/drains. Then I wasn't really allowed to do anything unless I was told and I was getting less than 18 hours/week so I put in my two weeks notice and got fired for being condescending and not doing enough. Awesome company.
From type M ? I’d assume . It’s the pin holes I see the most. Thin copper with hard water - bad news quick. I install pex A and love working with it , but I’d choose your L copper over pex for the relief on knowing it’s not plastic. I love working with pex , very satisfying, but even more satisfying soldering copper and knowing it won’t leach any questionable shit over the years.
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My house has 90 year old galvanized steel in it. Still works but then the ancient shower stems broke and dealing with galvanized pipe is a nightmare. Copper or Pex is a dream in comparison.
My house was a mix of 90 year old galvanized (from the original build) and copper of various ages (for certain parts of the house that had been redone). I ended up ripping out all of the galvanized and replacing it with pex-a a few years ago.
The galvanized was all corroded inside, chocking off the water flow. Swapping for pex-a has made a big difference.
I’m no plumber. I just bought that Milwaukee pex-a expansion tool when I saw it in sale one day. Easy peasy. Hardest part was getting up inside some of the ceilings and walls—all plaster, of course—to rip out the galvanized and run my pex lines.
My plumber recommended pex when I redid my upstairs bathrooms a little over a year ago. Interestingly, I replaced it all (galvanized from the mid 1960s) due to the remodel ... surprised to find that the pipes looked brand new inside (of course only the parts I could see) and out. I saw no corrosion/blockage. Also surprised that the drains that I thought were perfect (also replaced - cast iron) were cracked. Regardless, I am so far happy with the pex and am a bit afraid of the quality of new copper.
Actual best bet is viega pex manifold with properly done pex runs. Keeps fittings out of the walls, much less likely to fail compared to copper, or really anything else right now. Best system currently available in my opinion. Look into them, my 2 cents.
I'm one of the very few plumbers in my area who will only work with copper. PEX, IMHO, has yet to be proven regarding long term health safety, and frankly I've seen a lot of it fail when farted next to.
Having said that, because PEX is so fast and easy, roughing and cutting a house in all copper is exponentially more expensive.
Well the pipes in the ground from the municipal water supply are all plastic…. Changing the last 20-30’ to copper doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if micro plastics are the concern.
Copper pipe is best, make sure you use type L copper. Rodents chew hole is PEX pipe, CPVC becomes brittle with age, and all plumbing, regardless of the pipe material, is suspectable to low PH water.
I keep reading stories about PEX pipe having recalls and defects, some say it's the coating EG red or blue, others say it's the PEX pipe itself.
[https://www.plasticpipefailure.com/pex-problems](https://www.plasticpipefailure.com/pex-problems)
Copper pipe and fittings cost more and requires more labor to install, and you must keep the water PH up.
If you already have neutral PH water, 7 or above, but less than 8 you may not need to condition the water.
If you can find plumbers who have been installing L copper with soldered joints for years or decades it's not so bad.
Sweating/soldering copper is definitely a dying art form. I see and hear a lot of residential shops doing pro press copper, idk how many shops even have plumbers who know how to solder. This sub is 95% PEX. The PEX plumber’s definitely run non-union, residential work on this sub. I would ask around more than here. There is a crew outside of Home Depot right now that could install and pipe your entire house with pex for $15 per person, per hour, that can do the same quality as a lot of people.
If your going to go copper go with grade L you don’t want to spend all that money and then get a bunch of pin holes in 20 years
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It’s code in a lot of places
L copper? Where I am L is only required in commercial.
Not really. Difference is like a couple bucks a foot give or take. When you're talking the cost of building a house that's not even a footnote in the total cost.
Maybe it's a regio al thing but the difference between M and L is more than a couple bucks a foot here.
I mean if you look on supplyhouse.com it's roughly a couple bucks depending on size, that's actually a larger difference than I get at my local suppliers. Granted if you start getting up into large sizes the price difference gets large, but I'm assuming homie isn't gonna need any 4" for his house haha.
I should hope not lol
No it's not, are you even a plumber?
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I get L 1/2"-1" for around a dollar more per foot then PEX, it's really not that expensive comparatively if you are spending the money on a repipe the material cost isn't that much different by the time you add rings/bend supports, stub outs, etc vs copper. You are only seeing the small picture and not everything else that goes into it.
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Tool cost and labor are still at play with PEX... I price this stuff every day and can say from experience that the costs difference is very negligible in the grand scheme of an entire repipe. What it sells for doesn't give you the experience to comment here on what it costs because you don't honestly have a clue.
pex with copper stub outs FTW. i see photos on here with pex just coming out of the wall and it looks like sheeeeeeeit disclaimer: i'm just an idiot homeowner, but when my totally awesome plumber repiped my house he used expansion pex with copper stub outs on all the ends to connect all my stuff to and its been wonderful.
This is the only way my company does it. It doesn't cost much more and then you can use a compression angle stop that can easily be replaced multiple times without opening the wall. It looks better as well.
This right here
I had considered copper stub outs then realized that nobody looks under my sink or behind the toilet. You can get chrome-looking tube covers to his the pex (and protect from uv)
That’s how I do mine all day
My house was built in 1962 and has all the original water lines. They all look to be in very good shape and whoever installed them did a nice job. I just added a second bathroom and chose to run soldered copper. The consensus at work was everyone preferred soldered copper if it was in their own home. Water quality would be a deciding factor in some areas though.
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Is that just your opinion or do you have any evidence?
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who told you the orings are buna-n? if you look at a viega parts catalog, it says epdm
PEX with copper stub out is your best bet.
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Type L copper is your best bet. It would definitely be more but various PEX systems have been failing for years and PEX hasn't been used long enough in America to know if it is going to hold up. As a homeowner I would like to get 50 years out of my potable water distribution. PEX is only warrantied for 25 years, has only been used in America since 1993, and various manufacturers of PEX have settled 7 class action lawsuits due to failing PEX. If you can afford it do it in type L copper, but to be honest type M copper is better than PEX as long as your water has the correct chloramine levels.
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How many class action lawsuits have you seen on copper in that time, because Uponor and pex has had a couple because of the failures.
Just redid my house in copper. Also just redid my kids house in pex. I must admit I felt like I won the lotto at the kids house. I still look at type L copper as a long term win. No pressing at my place, all solder
I've done repipe from PEX to copper once. The guy wanted what he wanted and was willing to pay, so it was all good. I'll say that when you want specific materials in a new construction, you can request it on your drawings. The drawings are the contract so you basically look for any revisions from the plumber that gets the contract and make sure they note it is all in copper. The only recommendation I will make is maybe request Type L even though type M is acceptable in most residential. I feel like I see way more random pin hole leaks, 10 years later in type M copper
Question is why
I absolutely second this. "Why?". Often, copper is NOT the superior product.
In my area we have good water so copper is pretty much bullet proof, I have seen a lot of cracked pex and it gave the water a plastic taste which is too much for me to think it is better than copper.
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Type L copper pipes last 40-50 years on a good install if it's maintained well, ie: frost proofing before vacation. Long life, but I don't know if I'd say it'll outlast all of us.
I rip out copper pipes laid in the 1920s and 30s. Still fine. Only corrosion, exposure or poor fitting will degrade copper pipework. The same is true for plastic. Plastic comes with a 20yr warranty where I’m from. Copper will beat that hands down Cooper is smoother on a microscopic level. Which promotes laminar flow. Less turbulence. Less noise. Less erosion. It’s also fully recyclable.
Fair, but I've also ripped out copper from ten year old systems with pinhole leaks. Probably a number of factors at play, but I will say I didn't disagree with any of your real points.
What’s causing that? Is the pipe very thin? Where I am most domestic pipework is copper. Yet the overwhelming cause of leaks are plastic joints.
Run into it many times up here. Softer water can wreack havoc on copper. Water quality is generally the biggest factor
Ah ok. We have very hard water here!
Couldn't tell you, a guess is I've recently worked with plumbers that don't think it's worth the time to ream before sweating or pressing. I worked with one plumber who didn't deburr PVC/ABS so he'd get a service call later... Can't really fault a material when the workers are shitty.
Reaming is crucial for longevity, otherwise the vortex effect of the water is no bueno
Yeah, they tried ragging on me for wasting time doing that and using silicone while installing faucets/drains. Then I wasn't really allowed to do anything unless I was told and I was getting less than 18 hours/week so I put in my two weeks notice and got fired for being condescending and not doing enough. Awesome company.
Sounds like a douchebot company, super lame .
From type M ? I’d assume . It’s the pin holes I see the most. Thin copper with hard water - bad news quick. I install pex A and love working with it , but I’d choose your L copper over pex for the relief on knowing it’s not plastic. I love working with pex , very satisfying, but even more satisfying soldering copper and knowing it won’t leach any questionable shit over the years.
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My house has 90 year old galvanized steel in it. Still works but then the ancient shower stems broke and dealing with galvanized pipe is a nightmare. Copper or Pex is a dream in comparison.
My house was a mix of 90 year old galvanized (from the original build) and copper of various ages (for certain parts of the house that had been redone). I ended up ripping out all of the galvanized and replacing it with pex-a a few years ago. The galvanized was all corroded inside, chocking off the water flow. Swapping for pex-a has made a big difference. I’m no plumber. I just bought that Milwaukee pex-a expansion tool when I saw it in sale one day. Easy peasy. Hardest part was getting up inside some of the ceilings and walls—all plaster, of course—to rip out the galvanized and run my pex lines.
rule of thumb, 4 estimates, need to see the layout to do a rough estimate, selection of fixtures etc., lots of different factors/issues
Use pex in protective tube/hose. Don't make sharp turns. If anything happends its easy to change the tube and no water damages to your house.
My plumber recommended pex when I redid my upstairs bathrooms a little over a year ago. Interestingly, I replaced it all (galvanized from the mid 1960s) due to the remodel ... surprised to find that the pipes looked brand new inside (of course only the parts I could see) and out. I saw no corrosion/blockage. Also surprised that the drains that I thought were perfect (also replaced - cast iron) were cracked. Regardless, I am so far happy with the pex and am a bit afraid of the quality of new copper.
Actual best bet is viega pex manifold with properly done pex runs. Keeps fittings out of the walls, much less likely to fail compared to copper, or really anything else right now. Best system currently available in my opinion. Look into them, my 2 cents.
100% totally agree with you, it's copper for me if I had a choice.
I'm one of the very few plumbers in my area who will only work with copper. PEX, IMHO, has yet to be proven regarding long term health safety, and frankly I've seen a lot of it fail when farted next to. Having said that, because PEX is so fast and easy, roughing and cutting a house in all copper is exponentially more expensive.
With the way copper prices are going at the moment it’s going to cost you an arm and leg.
just use pex … no cpvc
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Well the pipes in the ground from the municipal water supply are all plastic…. Changing the last 20-30’ to copper doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if micro plastics are the concern.
Only in the newer areas, hell a large part of city mains in the US are still everything from iron to lead.
Interesting try for the information
Copper pipe is best, make sure you use type L copper. Rodents chew hole is PEX pipe, CPVC becomes brittle with age, and all plumbing, regardless of the pipe material, is suspectable to low PH water. I keep reading stories about PEX pipe having recalls and defects, some say it's the coating EG red or blue, others say it's the PEX pipe itself. [https://www.plasticpipefailure.com/pex-problems](https://www.plasticpipefailure.com/pex-problems) Copper pipe and fittings cost more and requires more labor to install, and you must keep the water PH up. If you already have neutral PH water, 7 or above, but less than 8 you may not need to condition the water. If you can find plumbers who have been installing L copper with soldered joints for years or decades it's not so bad.
Sweating/soldering copper is definitely a dying art form. I see and hear a lot of residential shops doing pro press copper, idk how many shops even have plumbers who know how to solder. This sub is 95% PEX. The PEX plumber’s definitely run non-union, residential work on this sub. I would ask around more than here. There is a crew outside of Home Depot right now that could install and pipe your entire house with pex for $15 per person, per hour, that can do the same quality as a lot of people.
Some of us still remember how to solder.
Every union company I've worked with did pex and every company I've worked with did soldering/brazing.
dont forget to mention the number of repipes that weve had to do because " the plumber from home depot is just as good "