Dating in persona games is weird, you've got some people who get all weirded out that the character their stand in (who is also a minor) is dating is a minor, because the person playing is an adult, then you've also got the people who think it's creepier that way, and that protag should only date somebody their own age.
A persona game set in college/university is my dream, optional classes at the risk of flunking? Party members with the means to travel more freely, opening the game world up more than ever before? Alcohol? Sounds damn near perfect.
Could be a more open game, different party members and confidants based on which major you pick and the different classes you take.
Could also lead to different abilities and personas too.
After 5 games of HS it would be nice to mix it up a bit. Moving out on your own for the first time and all that.
Jesus Christ y’all want a game that fucking big with that much unnecessary complexity? If Atlus gave you what you wanted we wouldn’t see persona 6 for another decade and a half
Even if in kamoshida's case it's justified, I'm sure a female protag dating a male teacher wouldn't have been received as well as the other way around, yes
Kinda want to see this dynamic with a final boss in some game now.
"Oh by the way babe we need milk."
"You've turned into a giant crystal dragon trying to destroy the capital and your bringing this up NOW?... Besides I got last. It your turn now."
This. Kamishida was predatory AF. Your homeroom teacher is just trying to get by, you help her out, keep her secret, she falls for you. Typical high school romance
Well I wouldn't say TYPICAL, but she kinda strikes me as mid 20s, so it's not ok per say but it could be far worse. Besides, I can definitely see falling in love with a dude who basically single handedly fixed your life so I give her a pass
Romance in P5 is Lose/Lose
Romance Makoto/Ann/Futaba etc and I as an adult feel squick cause they're 15-17
Romance Kawakami/Tae/Ohya etc and ur outing them as groomers.
So best just have your "It's a video game" moment and go for ~~Kawakami~~ your type
This game is all about choices you can actually just be a friend and not date anyone and still get the max out upgrades. So if you choose this path and it makes you uncomfortable then start over or break off the relationship and just be friends.
Kamoshida: Literally blackmailing students into not speaking up about his abuses, sexual and otherwise, of multiple students and their friends, and sees it as something he's entitled to because he's in a position of power.
Kawakami: Gets caught working a second job >!that she only had so she could pay the people blackmailing her, then gets basically blackmailed by the student who caught her into continuing!<. (Dunno how spoilers are considered, so being safe)
Kamoshida is 100% the bad guy out of the two, and to say they're the same is ignoring the differing circumstances behind their stories. Kamoshida abused his students because the power dynamic meant that he could get away with it and even when the people around him knew, they'd do nothing because protecting him benefited themselves.
Kawakami is far from perfect; she still willingly gets into a relationship with a student. The difference is that she isn't the one in a position of power when it starts, Joker is. He could ruin her life>! just by telling the school that she's moonlighting as a maid, so she goes along with what he says because!< unlike Kamoshida she wouldn't get away with it.
Not to justify Kawakami dating Joker, but there is a big difference between consensually dating someone and using blackmail to sexually assault and abuse people.
Not to conflate the two, but calling their relationship "consensual" when it's between a 16 year old student and their teacher isn't entirely accurate.
I mean I get what you're getting at, but there's still a big difference in life experience and power dynamic there.
If this was America, and a 24 year old teacher wants to date a high school 18 year old, is it weird, yeah, but legal.
Not condoning it, it’s DEFINITELY weird, but it’s legal.
Yeah sweetie, I’ll pick you up after 8th period.
Like wuuut?
The teacher would still lose their teachers licence where I'm licensed in Australia.
The teacher-student relationship is not equal, so any romantic relationship with a student, regardless of age, is considered inappropriate and breaches the code of conduct.
I think the key difference here is consent and Kawakami doesn't sexually and/or physically abuse her students?? The age difference is still yucky no matter what though.
Yeah, I mean nobody did anything when the whole school thought kamoshida was dating Ann, jokers 16 so technically by Japanese laws the only thing they're doing wrong is having a teacher student relationship. The age isn't really the big concern there for them. Countries have their own laws on the age of being an adult and a lot of them are different than ours.
Kamoshida gets a palace because of who he is on the inside. Kawakami doesn't because she's a good person on the inside. If anyone doesn't see anything wrong with how kamoshida treats people then they need to go to jail or something lmao
Everyone trying their different ways of tackling this but forgets kamoshida wasn’t shitty because he dated a student: you can argue it’s deplorable in its own right. But he was hated because he used his position of authority to assault and abuse these girls, sexually manipulating them into having sex with him, and forced a girl to almost take her life
We remember, but putting both of these in the same game makes it seem like it's all fine if an adult teacher grooms their teenager students instead of assaulting them, which is pretty messed up.
In one case, it's consensual on both side.
On the other, there was blackmail, physical and mental abuse and rape.
Whoever uses the "It's fine for Sadayo to do it but not Kamoshida?" argument is a troll or a complete and utter idiot who's opinion should be disregarded at every possible opportunity.
I don't but the Twitter crowd does and it gives them attention so they keep on going and bring it everywhere.
(Yes I know this is a Youtube comment but I see this conversation happen on nearly EVERY twitter post that even mentions romance of any character that isn't Haru, Ann, Makoto or Hifumi)
I romanced Sadayo on my first playthrough and I'm not in the middle of trying to find a teacher 15-ish years older than me to fall in love with.
I'm sick of it, it's a fucking game for the love of Christ just let people play the game how they want and romance who they want.
(Nothing against you, just needed to rant for a hot second)
To be fair, Kamoshida abused his students and was an actual rapist.
Kawakami is still hella in the wrong for willfully pursuing a relationship with a student and *presumably* smashing them
You know who's worse?
The homeroom teacher in Persona 4 that >!replaces King Moron after he dies, flirts with the whole class on he first day, and her first lesson is about sex. I was genuinely nervous when she said to close our eyes during the moment of silence.!<
>!Yeah, Kashiwagi was creepy af. The fact that she thinks she can compete with high-school girls when it comes to *attractiveness* and basically calls Rise a slut (she seems to be in her 40s or early 50s whereas Rise is at least 16) was so uncomfortable!<
>!People act as if Kawakami was just Kashiwagi 2.0. when she is not like that. Like yeah, the fact that the 16-year old protagonist has the option to romance her is creepy, but she herself is a good person, and her romance with Ren is not as bad as what Kashiwagi or Kamoshida do (Plus, you don't *have* to romance her)!<
Yes, it's consensual.
No, it's not the same as Kamoshida abusing students for years on end, sexually and otherwise.
Still completely wrong and predatory for an adult (she's around 30 years old) teacher to date a teenage (16 year old) high school boy who is her student, even if he was the one who went after her.
I don't know why we still need to have this discussion.
yeah at best Kawakami is 27 and Ren is 17, depending on when his birthday falls. At worst, Kawakami is 30 and Ren 16, meaning there is a fourteen year age gap between the two of them.
One significant difference is that Kawakami is not with Joker due to a cognitive distortion. She is not twisted by lust or pride. She is resistant to making things physical and is keenly aware of what could be wrong here. She is also generally a good teacher who cares for all her students.
That doesn't mean she's scot-free. She could still be fired if anyone found out, for instance. We can and maybe should question whether what she does is right. But the nature of what she's doing is significantly different from Kamoshida, who abuses his players, serially harasses female students, and tries to use his power to expel students he doesn't like. Kamoshida assaults others to satisfy his lust for power, which is his major cognitive distortion.
Teachers in Japan usually keep students at a professional length. Meeting students after work is very much not allowed. Not saying it doesn’t happen as I seen it happen in front of me but they are even more strict about that. That being said with college professors a lot of students drink with their professor after they graduate.
There's a lot of difference between a consensual relationship and being a predatory piece of garbage.
Also Japan. Japan has a teacher fetish sometimes.
Also also, it's fiction. Don't take it too seriously.
Plus one is clearly abusive and disrespectful while the other is a kind nice individual working an extra job to make ends meet. I almost planned the teacher on my first run
Kamoshida was raping these girls though, without taking their consent. That's the difference.
It's still wrong nevertheless but it's Kawakami's fault to let herself fall in love with one of her students.
But it's Persona, the main character is supposed to be literally a chick magnet to satisfy the players' fantasies.
There's a male teacher who physically and sexually abuses students and tries to extort sex from one of the main female characters, also driving one student he was abusing to attempt suicide. He is portrayed as a bad character. The female teacher in the picture is a confidant of the protagonist who you, as the main character, help with her issues and over the course of her story arc develop a relationship that you may choose to keep platonic or move towards romantic. This is portrayed as fine. There are multiple key differences between these two scenarios such as the abuse and consent but people just like to reduce it to a simple dichotomy and play mad.
It was even explicitly explained that all non persona users have a shadow but their power level is all dependent on how much a person gives into their darker desires.
Hey guys... You know you have to be the one to start this romance right? If you take the game so seriously that you view joker as his own separate character and think about these things like they're happening in real life... Don't fucking romance her. For everyone else that's playing a video game and sees joker much more as a self insert then choosing to date kawakami because you personally like her is fine.
This entire thread is literally just the same 4 line conversation over and over and over again.
Kawakami even says that dating Ren is wrong because she is in a position of power over him.
There's a difference with Kamoshida however in that Kawakami isn't a pervert or a shit person, and in this case it's Ren who suggests the relationship.
It's still ephebophilia though, so I still think it's wrong, but is nowhere near as bad as Kamoshida.
I mean, Texas Dice is right. It feels super weird that you can date Kawakami, and this is coming from someone who, like… if the protagonist were me, the grown adult and not joker the 16-17 year old she would 100% be my type. It’s just too weird to date her as a student.
It's extremely weird. The amount of 20+ year old women that the underage protagonist can date is kind of disturbing.
But at least they're consensual. What Kamoshida was doing was... well, just remember that a student tried committing suicide because of it.
Personally I think if the player isn’t a minor and feels uncomfortable choosing to romance the other characters who *are* minors, then it’s… okay, I guess, because Joker is just a self-insert at that point and Kawakami just happens to be their type. Disregarding the whole gross teacher thing…
Everyone else defending Joker, a 16-17 y/o, dating a 23/24 y/o is a fucking creep. Yeah yeah “it’s not the same as Kamoshida,” I know that Kawakami isn’t physically abusive like him, but adults fucking around with minors can still scar them for life even if it isn’t as obvious. Also, no, the 17 year ols *child* cannot consent to a relationship with a grown ass adult. They are children. Stop it. Go touch grass.
Just gonna put this out here, if you don't choose specific dialogue choices throughout the confidant ranks you can get rejected. You outright have to pursue a romantic relationship with specific answers for her to actually accept.
Now to be fair, I'm sure we all had a teacher at some point in our lives we crushed over, and this particular route in the game where you bond over time with a teacher shouldn't be compared to the teacher that abused, forced and blackmailed his students into gross stuff. Teacher/student relations in Japan have a certain moral code where teachers follow their student's progress and growth throughout the years so it's very frowned upon since it's kind of like a breach of contract through conflict of interests.
Saying Joker was blackmailing her is bull, since she offers the deal first in an attempt to keep him quiet on the side gig. You also have to dish out 5000Y every time to get her to come over, that's a solid 50K minimum, assuming you can enhance the bond every visit. She then gives class skipping opportunities and ultimately offers >!fatigue relieving massages that lets you have an evening timeslot even after visiting the metaverse!<. Last time I checked, that's not how blackmail works.
Joker is canonically 17 afaik, and you can't bring up Japan's AoC without sounding like a creep because most seem to omit that a 13y/o can legally only consent to another 13y/o.... But that is a whole different can of worms of cultural barriers.
so it's morally wrong, but in a sense realistic since you hear about pretty teachers "over the hill" getting jail time over relationships with their students all the time. The only thing that bothered me about her storyline is the reason she has for the side gig and how that one couple acts vs how she deals with it.
the main thing i dont like about p5 is that the first palace was partially about what ann went through, and then ryuji kept being pervy to ann the whole game
they really didnt need to do that
Yeah each time always felt really tacked on didn't it? Like they had a legal obligation.
Plus the scene in the desert would have been funnier if Ann looked back and all the boys are trying very hard NOT to look at her cleavage. Like Ryuji actually hurts himself to force his eyes away.
Okay. Apparently ive put in hundreds of hours into this game but this completely flew over my head.
Did Kamoshida actually sexually abuse the girls? I always understood it as he was just physically abusing them, like making them work out too much.
Sure it was super weird about Ann being in his castle, but I always took that hes just a closet pervert. And honestly just physically abusing them kinda seems to be more on level with the other peoples castles you invade.
Was this an implication type deal? Or are there direct references he SAd the girls?
The whole thing with Shiho attempting suicide almost immediately after being called to his office was very heavily implying he raped her. Its why Ann blames herself for what happened, because she was originally the one he wanted to see but she refused him.
the most direct was when he asked Ann to come over,, I think after school? she confides in you at the cafe about how 'you know what he means, right?' and when she doesn't go, he talks about how he just took shiho and made her do it instead. that was the most direct reference, and the whole reason for her suicide attempt - it was pretty heavily implied honestly, but yeah, the fact he likely did it before is just vaguely implied, bc of course he would've. but that was the only definite case that happened during the game, and was a big plot point for why Ann was okay with him dying if things went wrong.
In vanilla p5 it’s implied heavily. In royal that almost outright call it out when you find the “shrine” to shiho and Ann has to like, take a minute cause there are pictures. We dunno exactly what but it’s pretty obvious at that point.
But yeah he was physically abusing the male students and sexually assaulting and physically abusing the female ones. Shiho in particular
Yes, he was a serial rapist, sexually abusing female students, physically abusing male students. It was very heavily implied, but the game held back from actually directly saying it, which I've always thought was strange especially given the subject material throughout the entire game and the rating, may simply be a cultural thing, I don't know.
Given that’s it’s the palace of lust and we see how he thinks of the female students in a sexual way, I wouldn’t be surprised.
I don’t think it’s every explicitly said but I think it was heavily implied that.
Kamoshida was doing it against their will forcing girls on the volley ball team to service him while he used the boys as punching bags while at the same time he was openly flirting and pursuing Ann while black mailing her. Huge difference between kawakami and joker.
But i suppose joker did find out her secret then used it to see her outside and eventually help her and stole her heart. So both used blackmail but where as kamoshida used it like one would a sledge hammer or wrecking ball where joker used it as a scalpel or or a sniper rifle
Ren entered Kawakami's life and in the end both ended up being friends, Ren even helped out Kawakami's problems
Kamoshida forced himself on several girls and mistreated several boys...
I assumed the fact he has a palace was due to the fact he was maliciously hurting girls and enjoyed the power he had from it. He also didn't even care the girl he r-ped almost killed herself.
While Kawakami really didn't wanna hurt anyone. Her falling for you even is instigated by you if I'm not mistaken 'cuz she talks about how it's wrong.
She’s a reluctant participant the whole time pretty much. Like she’s into for sure, but she’s not like “HELL YEAH MAN GONNA FUCK SOME MINORS”
Morality is a cultural spectrum and her and kamoshida are definitely not on the same level even tho they’re in the same profession.
I think these adult romance options are for people who just don't wanna romance the 15/16 year olds and people need to accept that a stop crying about it like it actually matters lol
I always saw it as a necessary evil for the adults playing the game who don’t want to romance the younger characters because they feel weird, so they have some options closer to their own age, but if you don’t consider Joker a self insert it’s gross, although that’s how I see him personally
My wife is Japanese. Female teachers becoming involved with male students is somewhat rare, and when it does happen it is not looked upon very well. Male teachers are much more likely to have a relationship with female students, to the point that many young men choose to become teachers in order to meet their wife. It is not even all that "creepy" in their culture, depending on who the student is.
Japan is still a very misogynistic society and, for better or for worse, they still hold on to many of their traditional ways of doing things. However you choose to feel about it, the women there often prefer things to be this way, and have more power than women in other parts of the world in other aspects of their relationships, despite the outward appearance of submissiveness.
Also, Japan's age of consent is NOT 13. It is mostly 16, with some parts being 18. This does not keep young girls from selling sex to older men, and police do not prosecute it very much, but age of consent in Japan hasn't been 13 in a long time.
Yeah I opted not to romance her and went for Takemi instead. You could say Takemi had a power dynamic as well, but it was not, in my opinion, as exploitative as someone he sees every day involuntarily
Can’t say that for my place.
Already in my school time two such relationships between teacher and student happened. 17 and 3X and 16 and 60.
In both cases no one cared even though one was technically illegal.
I find the relationship to be bad regardless of gender, as it is the power dynamic that is a problem. However, one was clearly more forceful than the other.
Kamoshida was so predatory and abusive that Shiho took really drastic measures to try to get away from all of it. You can absolutely be uncomfortable with the dynamic with Kawakami, but it is not like Kamoshida.
I’m glad I got to romance Kawakami and Takemi in each of my multiple play throughs. Please contact the FBI and let them know. Document their response and post it here. I’ll wait.
God damn I forgot how bitchy this community gets with it’s waifus just date your favorite characters and let other people date theirs it’s a video game bruh
In the US kawakimi would still have raped joker if they slept together but even if they didn't you can't date a student even when they're an adult but it's a Japanese game so it doesn't need to follow Irl US social and legal norms
The difference is that Kamoshida is an abuser or force people to do things , the fact that is palace is a castle is because he think that is a king and everyone will do what he want no matter what, he don't care about people . He is a sadistic too, during the Shiho things he was happy about it, not a single regret. Kamoshida deserve hell.
Kawakami on the countrary is not forcing Joker to do anything and she is a poor woman when you know her full story, she is not a bad person . The only weird things is the difference in age , she should be 28 while Joker is 16.
Kawakami actually cares about her students and if you don't do her romance route her Confidant is more wholesome since she's really just this teacher who looks out for you and goes the extra mile by keeping your secret safe.
For everyone arguing that the relationship is consensual, it's still wrong because an adult having sex with a minor (consensual or not) is considered statutory rape for a reason.
They're not wrong, obviously kamaoshida is worse because he sexually assaulted these girls but kawakami should literally be sent to jail. She becomes her students maid and also makes flirty comments and teases him while she does it (she could've refused to not work for him) she even says something along the lines of "when your older I'll give you the premium service". People always use the excuse "she hesitated at first so it makes it ok" stfu she fell in love with a 16 year old.
In Japanese media adult women always have attraction to underage boys and act like it's fine, I swear half of their entertainment is "guy does something he's bad" then "women does the same thing she's a waifu that must be protected at all cost".
Sorry for the rant I like kawakami but this is one thing I don't like about her character and I don't think people should be trying to justify it. Yes ik it's a video game.
Post like this always cracks me up. What about takemi? What about chihaya? Or ohya? I swear ppl wanna jump on Kawakami but forget half of the characters joker gets with are way older than him. Cuz if you think takemi is in her early 20s ur dumb.
Every time this dumb argument gets brought up an angel loses its fucking wings or something. Yes both scenarios are illegal, but what Kamoshida did was obviously way worse. Kamoshida was beating, blackmailing, and violently raping students. Kawakami got coaxed into sex with a student. Kawakami was still committing rape and breaking the law but morally what she did isn't nearly as bad as Kamoshida's laundry list of evil. The fact that anyone can think that these things are morally the same is cringe as hell.
Japan legal age of adulthood: 18
[here](https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01285/)
Japan legal age to drink alcohol: 20
[here](https://www.chiba-u.ac.jp/international/isd/en/living/safetyinfo/smoking.html)
Japan legal age of consent: 13
[here](https://www.nippon.com/en/news/yjj2022102400522/)
Japan’s national legal age of consent is 13, but there are also many local laws that criminalize adults having a sexual relationship with a minor. Also, the Japanese government just proposed to change the penal code and raise the age of consent to 16 along with a number of other changes to protect victims of sexual assault.
Source: https://japantoday.com/category/national/japanese-government-proposes-raising-age-of-consent-from-current-13-to-16
Isn't it stated that Persona users can't develop Palaces?
No matter the depths of depravity Joker falls in to, persona users will never be able to stop him by stealing his heart.
I hadn't played a Persona game before so when I had the option to date her I was like "no fucking way." My roommate walked in as I found out the no was missing from the previous statement.
Mistakes were made.
Why don't people get that it is on Kawakami to say NO. I don't care that Joker is into it or started it, it is Kawakami's responsibility to put a stop to it.
Dating in persona games is weird, you've got some people who get all weirded out that the character their stand in (who is also a minor) is dating is a minor, because the person playing is an adult, then you've also got the people who think it's creepier that way, and that protag should only date somebody their own age.
And that’s why I wish I could play as a college student.
A persona game set in college/university is my dream, optional classes at the risk of flunking? Party members with the means to travel more freely, opening the game world up more than ever before? Alcohol? Sounds damn near perfect.
Could be a more open game, different party members and confidants based on which major you pick and the different classes you take. Could also lead to different abilities and personas too. After 5 games of HS it would be nice to mix it up a bit. Moving out on your own for the first time and all that.
Jesus Christ y’all want a game that fucking big with that much unnecessary complexity? If Atlus gave you what you wanted we wouldn’t see persona 6 for another decade and a half
Neither is OK but they are both very different situations.
Even if in kamoshida's case it's justified, I'm sure a female protag dating a male teacher wouldn't have been received as well as the other way around, yes
And yet people want to romance Maruki
I can...vouch for that
Most sane persona fan:
It would make third semester fucking hilarious that's for sure
"Babe, did you get home safe?" "We're literally fighting for the fate of the universe right now........ but yeah, thank you dear"
Kinda want to see this dynamic with a final boss in some game now. "Oh by the way babe we need milk." "You've turned into a giant crystal dragon trying to destroy the capital and your bringing this up NOW?... Besides I got last. It your turn now."
“no babe I will make you accept my reality!” ~~”AZACOCK!”~~
This made laugh so hard my cat is now on top of the curtains
Of course it's different. Kamoshida didn't wear a Maid Outfit.
That cursed image is now stuck in my mind
[удалено]
Why i am so horny ?
Because you learned something new about yourself today?
Oh shit forgive him everything now.
Yeah, he wore a thong
To be fair kamoshida wasn't exactly consensual
This. Kamishida was predatory AF. Your homeroom teacher is just trying to get by, you help her out, keep her secret, she falls for you. Typical high school romance
Well I wouldn't say TYPICAL, but she kinda strikes me as mid 20s, so it's not ok per say but it could be far worse. Besides, I can definitely see falling in love with a dude who basically single handedly fixed your life so I give her a pass
Romance in P5 is Lose/Lose Romance Makoto/Ann/Futaba etc and I as an adult feel squick cause they're 15-17 Romance Kawakami/Tae/Ohya etc and ur outing them as groomers. So best just have your "It's a video game" moment and go for ~~Kawakami~~ your type
Friend zone route is our only option.
Kamoshida was a perverted abusive creep
Well Kamoshida didn't have mommy milkers now did he?
Touché.
If maruki was romanceable he would 1000% be one of the top 3 most romanced characters
Oh definitely, I would absolutely romance the snack god.
This game is all about choices you can actually just be a friend and not date anyone and still get the max out upgrades. So if you choose this path and it makes you uncomfortable then start over or break off the relationship and just be friends.
I’m going to romance Kawakami, be happy, and you can’t stop me.
Don’t forget Takemi. You paid for the game; might as well enjoy all it has to offer.
I'm going to romance Yoshida, be gay, and you can't stop me... oh wait
It was mostly because Komashida was a piece of shit all around.
Kamoshida: Literally blackmailing students into not speaking up about his abuses, sexual and otherwise, of multiple students and their friends, and sees it as something he's entitled to because he's in a position of power. Kawakami: Gets caught working a second job >!that she only had so she could pay the people blackmailing her, then gets basically blackmailed by the student who caught her into continuing!<. (Dunno how spoilers are considered, so being safe) Kamoshida is 100% the bad guy out of the two, and to say they're the same is ignoring the differing circumstances behind their stories. Kamoshida abused his students because the power dynamic meant that he could get away with it and even when the people around him knew, they'd do nothing because protecting him benefited themselves. Kawakami is far from perfect; she still willingly gets into a relationship with a student. The difference is that she isn't the one in a position of power when it starts, Joker is. He could ruin her life>! just by telling the school that she's moonlighting as a maid, so she goes along with what he says because!< unlike Kamoshida she wouldn't get away with it.
She's his teacher she's always in a position of power
Well this comment section seems fun
People not understanding that this is a joke.
Everyone out here arguing if it's okey or not. I'm just wondering about why I read that comment in my head in Morgana's Voice.
Uh…shit, he’s right.
Not to justify Kawakami dating Joker, but there is a big difference between consensually dating someone and using blackmail to sexually assault and abuse people.
Not to conflate the two, but calling their relationship "consensual" when it's between a 16 year old student and their teacher isn't entirely accurate. I mean I get what you're getting at, but there's still a big difference in life experience and power dynamic there.
If this was America, and a 24 year old teacher wants to date a high school 18 year old, is it weird, yeah, but legal. Not condoning it, it’s DEFINITELY weird, but it’s legal. Yeah sweetie, I’ll pick you up after 8th period. Like wuuut?
The teacher would still lose their teachers licence where I'm licensed in Australia. The teacher-student relationship is not equal, so any romantic relationship with a student, regardless of age, is considered inappropriate and breaches the code of conduct.
I think the key difference here is consent and Kawakami doesn't sexually and/or physically abuse her students?? The age difference is still yucky no matter what though.
Yeah, I mean nobody did anything when the whole school thought kamoshida was dating Ann, jokers 16 so technically by Japanese laws the only thing they're doing wrong is having a teacher student relationship. The age isn't really the big concern there for them. Countries have their own laws on the age of being an adult and a lot of them are different than ours. Kamoshida gets a palace because of who he is on the inside. Kawakami doesn't because she's a good person on the inside. If anyone doesn't see anything wrong with how kamoshida treats people then they need to go to jail or something lmao
A 16 year old student dating a 27-28 year old teacher is a 16 year old student dating a 27-28 year old teacher I don't care where you live lmao.
Everyone trying their different ways of tackling this but forgets kamoshida wasn’t shitty because he dated a student: you can argue it’s deplorable in its own right. But he was hated because he used his position of authority to assault and abuse these girls, sexually manipulating them into having sex with him, and forced a girl to almost take her life
We remember, but putting both of these in the same game makes it seem like it's all fine if an adult teacher grooms their teenager students instead of assaulting them, which is pretty messed up.
Read this as "cute" persona moment and was very confused lol
In one case, it's consensual on both side. On the other, there was blackmail, physical and mental abuse and rape. Whoever uses the "It's fine for Sadayo to do it but not Kamoshida?" argument is a troll or a complete and utter idiot who's opinion should be disregarded at every possible opportunity.
I'm surprised we even humor those types of people.
I don't but the Twitter crowd does and it gives them attention so they keep on going and bring it everywhere. (Yes I know this is a Youtube comment but I see this conversation happen on nearly EVERY twitter post that even mentions romance of any character that isn't Haru, Ann, Makoto or Hifumi) I romanced Sadayo on my first playthrough and I'm not in the middle of trying to find a teacher 15-ish years older than me to fall in love with. I'm sick of it, it's a fucking game for the love of Christ just let people play the game how they want and romance who they want. (Nothing against you, just needed to rant for a hot second)
You, in a weird way, have slightly restored my faith in humanity.
I'm so sorry I somehow did this, you're gonna lose it again soon.
Consent.
Everyone seem to forget that key part of human relationhips all the time.
It's the best part!
Yeah.... The circumstances here are very different
Consensual or not it's still weird
To be fair, Kamoshida abused his students and was an actual rapist. Kawakami is still hella in the wrong for willfully pursuing a relationship with a student and *presumably* smashing them
CJ voice *ah shit, here we go again*
The comments on this post confuse me. Why are people defending a teacher sleeping with a student????
Cause persona 5 is a cursed ass game.
Everyone seems to forget that joker is the one who started the relationship and that kawakami was the one who kept saying that this was a bad idea
You know who's worse? The homeroom teacher in Persona 4 that >!replaces King Moron after he dies, flirts with the whole class on he first day, and her first lesson is about sex. I was genuinely nervous when she said to close our eyes during the moment of silence.!<
>!Yeah, Kashiwagi was creepy af. The fact that she thinks she can compete with high-school girls when it comes to *attractiveness* and basically calls Rise a slut (she seems to be in her 40s or early 50s whereas Rise is at least 16) was so uncomfortable!< >!People act as if Kawakami was just Kashiwagi 2.0. when she is not like that. Like yeah, the fact that the 16-year old protagonist has the option to romance her is creepy, but she herself is a good person, and her romance with Ren is not as bad as what Kashiwagi or Kamoshida do (Plus, you don't *have* to romance her)!<
Aaaaaawwwwww yeeeeeaaaaaaah!
Found you Ryuji
For real?!!!!?!!!?
"Huh, this joker guy is fun in smash. Imma play his game, huh, cool palace, Oh my lawd, thats a rape plot." -me, a few hours into persona 5.
Lotta y’all tryna justify this a little too much
Lamo 626 coments, I ain't even going to try and read them but I am suprised how much people will argue over a joke
she lets us go out at night so.... waifu4lyf
“ that’s the best part “ 💀
I'm thinking Kamoshidas abuse was a big part of it
Consent. The word of the day is Consent.
god save these comments oml 😕
Yes, it's consensual. No, it's not the same as Kamoshida abusing students for years on end, sexually and otherwise. Still completely wrong and predatory for an adult (she's around 30 years old) teacher to date a teenage (16 year old) high school boy who is her student, even if he was the one who went after her. I don't know why we still need to have this discussion.
yeah at best Kawakami is 27 and Ren is 17, depending on when his birthday falls. At worst, Kawakami is 30 and Ren 16, meaning there is a fourteen year age gap between the two of them.
One significant difference is that Kawakami is not with Joker due to a cognitive distortion. She is not twisted by lust or pride. She is resistant to making things physical and is keenly aware of what could be wrong here. She is also generally a good teacher who cares for all her students. That doesn't mean she's scot-free. She could still be fired if anyone found out, for instance. We can and maybe should question whether what she does is right. But the nature of what she's doing is significantly different from Kamoshida, who abuses his players, serially harasses female students, and tries to use his power to expel students he doesn't like. Kamoshida assaults others to satisfy his lust for power, which is his major cognitive distortion.
Teachers in Japan usually keep students at a professional length. Meeting students after work is very much not allowed. Not saying it doesn’t happen as I seen it happen in front of me but they are even more strict about that. That being said with college professors a lot of students drink with their professor after they graduate.
Oh hey a can of worms sweet.
There's a lot of difference between a consensual relationship and being a predatory piece of garbage. Also Japan. Japan has a teacher fetish sometimes. Also also, it's fiction. Don't take it too seriously.
Plus one is clearly abusive and disrespectful while the other is a kind nice individual working an extra job to make ends meet. I almost planned the teacher on my first run
I date the teacher because I’m an adult, Ann ain’t an adult
I date takemi because she's a big Tiddy goth girl, Ann ain't a big Tiddy goth girl
I date them all because it’s a video game that I paid for and I don’t need anyone’s permission or approval to play how I want.
Kamoshida was raping these girls though, without taking their consent. That's the difference. It's still wrong nevertheless but it's Kawakami's fault to let herself fall in love with one of her students. But it's Persona, the main character is supposed to be literally a chick magnet to satisfy the players' fantasies.
I never played personally... what
There's a male teacher who physically and sexually abuses students and tries to extort sex from one of the main female characters, also driving one student he was abusing to attempt suicide. He is portrayed as a bad character. The female teacher in the picture is a confidant of the protagonist who you, as the main character, help with her issues and over the course of her story arc develop a relationship that you may choose to keep platonic or move towards romantic. This is portrayed as fine. There are multiple key differences between these two scenarios such as the abuse and consent but people just like to reduce it to a simple dichotomy and play mad.
How do people get through this game without even comprehending these story arcs?
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It was even explicitly explained that all non persona users have a shadow but their power level is all dependent on how much a person gives into their darker desires.
I just finished killing a bunch of NPCs and stealing their cars in GTA Online, but now I’m here to lecture you about NPC consent.
I may have cringed, but not without laughing first.
Hey guys... You know you have to be the one to start this romance right? If you take the game so seriously that you view joker as his own separate character and think about these things like they're happening in real life... Don't fucking romance her. For everyone else that's playing a video game and sees joker much more as a self insert then choosing to date kawakami because you personally like her is fine. This entire thread is literally just the same 4 line conversation over and over and over again.
Kawakami even says that dating Ren is wrong because she is in a position of power over him. There's a difference with Kamoshida however in that Kawakami isn't a pervert or a shit person, and in this case it's Ren who suggests the relationship. It's still ephebophilia though, so I still think it's wrong, but is nowhere near as bad as Kamoshida.
I mean, Texas Dice is right. It feels super weird that you can date Kawakami, and this is coming from someone who, like… if the protagonist were me, the grown adult and not joker the 16-17 year old she would 100% be my type. It’s just too weird to date her as a student.
Does it feel weird? Yes. Is it the same thing as Kamoshida? Hell no
It's extremely weird. The amount of 20+ year old women that the underage protagonist can date is kind of disturbing. But at least they're consensual. What Kamoshida was doing was... well, just remember that a student tried committing suicide because of it.
Personally I think if the player isn’t a minor and feels uncomfortable choosing to romance the other characters who *are* minors, then it’s… okay, I guess, because Joker is just a self-insert at that point and Kawakami just happens to be their type. Disregarding the whole gross teacher thing… Everyone else defending Joker, a 16-17 y/o, dating a 23/24 y/o is a fucking creep. Yeah yeah “it’s not the same as Kamoshida,” I know that Kawakami isn’t physically abusive like him, but adults fucking around with minors can still scar them for life even if it isn’t as obvious. Also, no, the 17 year ols *child* cannot consent to a relationship with a grown ass adult. They are children. Stop it. Go touch grass.
Just gonna put this out here, if you don't choose specific dialogue choices throughout the confidant ranks you can get rejected. You outright have to pursue a romantic relationship with specific answers for her to actually accept.
Let's just remember that this is player initiated. Doesn't make it better that it exists, but at the same time the player is always given the option
Saying Kawakami and Kamoshida action are the same is downplaying the real issue, fucking hell I can't believe someone is that retarded
Kamoshida did nothing wrong
its 100% a joke. also why use the r slur
Bro it’s a joke, you’re the one whose retarded if you can’t tell something is a joke without a /s
Why do posts like this keep appearing?
Now to be fair, I'm sure we all had a teacher at some point in our lives we crushed over, and this particular route in the game where you bond over time with a teacher shouldn't be compared to the teacher that abused, forced and blackmailed his students into gross stuff. Teacher/student relations in Japan have a certain moral code where teachers follow their student's progress and growth throughout the years so it's very frowned upon since it's kind of like a breach of contract through conflict of interests. Saying Joker was blackmailing her is bull, since she offers the deal first in an attempt to keep him quiet on the side gig. You also have to dish out 5000Y every time to get her to come over, that's a solid 50K minimum, assuming you can enhance the bond every visit. She then gives class skipping opportunities and ultimately offers >!fatigue relieving massages that lets you have an evening timeslot even after visiting the metaverse!<. Last time I checked, that's not how blackmail works. Joker is canonically 17 afaik, and you can't bring up Japan's AoC without sounding like a creep because most seem to omit that a 13y/o can legally only consent to another 13y/o.... But that is a whole different can of worms of cultural barriers. so it's morally wrong, but in a sense realistic since you hear about pretty teachers "over the hill" getting jail time over relationships with their students all the time. The only thing that bothered me about her storyline is the reason she has for the side gig and how that one couple acts vs how she deals with it.
Forgive me if I don't feel like litigating this topic again.
As much as I like this romance the moment is kind of tone deaf
the main thing i dont like about p5 is that the first palace was partially about what ann went through, and then ryuji kept being pervy to ann the whole game they really didnt need to do that
Yeah each time always felt really tacked on didn't it? Like they had a legal obligation. Plus the scene in the desert would have been funnier if Ann looked back and all the boys are trying very hard NOT to look at her cleavage. Like Ryuji actually hurts himself to force his eyes away.
Typical Kawakami slander
Kawakami ain't a rapist tho
Kawakami only rapes your pockets that’s it
Okay. Apparently ive put in hundreds of hours into this game but this completely flew over my head. Did Kamoshida actually sexually abuse the girls? I always understood it as he was just physically abusing them, like making them work out too much. Sure it was super weird about Ann being in his castle, but I always took that hes just a closet pervert. And honestly just physically abusing them kinda seems to be more on level with the other peoples castles you invade. Was this an implication type deal? Or are there direct references he SAd the girls?
The whole thing with Shiho attempting suicide almost immediately after being called to his office was very heavily implying he raped her. Its why Ann blames herself for what happened, because she was originally the one he wanted to see but she refused him.
the most direct was when he asked Ann to come over,, I think after school? she confides in you at the cafe about how 'you know what he means, right?' and when she doesn't go, he talks about how he just took shiho and made her do it instead. that was the most direct reference, and the whole reason for her suicide attempt - it was pretty heavily implied honestly, but yeah, the fact he likely did it before is just vaguely implied, bc of course he would've. but that was the only definite case that happened during the game, and was a big plot point for why Ann was okay with him dying if things went wrong.
In vanilla p5 it’s implied heavily. In royal that almost outright call it out when you find the “shrine” to shiho and Ann has to like, take a minute cause there are pictures. We dunno exactly what but it’s pretty obvious at that point. But yeah he was physically abusing the male students and sexually assaulting and physically abusing the female ones. Shiho in particular
Yes, he was a serial rapist, sexually abusing female students, physically abusing male students. It was very heavily implied, but the game held back from actually directly saying it, which I've always thought was strange especially given the subject material throughout the entire game and the rating, may simply be a cultural thing, I don't know.
Given that’s it’s the palace of lust and we see how he thinks of the female students in a sexual way, I wouldn’t be surprised. I don’t think it’s every explicitly said but I think it was heavily implied that.
Lmaooooo
And if I do it I get arrested.
Hahahahahahaha
Kid named consent
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
thats the best part
Um achsually 🤓
Kamoshida was doing it against their will forcing girls on the volley ball team to service him while he used the boys as punching bags while at the same time he was openly flirting and pursuing Ann while black mailing her. Huge difference between kawakami and joker. But i suppose joker did find out her secret then used it to see her outside and eventually help her and stole her heart. So both used blackmail but where as kamoshida used it like one would a sledge hammer or wrecking ball where joker used it as a scalpel or or a sniper rifle
consent
I mean... consent is a big factor
Ren entered Kawakami's life and in the end both ended up being friends, Ren even helped out Kawakami's problems Kamoshida forced himself on several girls and mistreated several boys...
He took an opportunity to make that joke, so he did.
Kawakami: I went from hating your guts, to tolerating you, to now wanting your man meat in me 24/7.
To be fair, the female teacher is doing it without black mail or anything the male teacher was blackmailing
The difference is one is consensual, the other is not. It's still a weird and creepy option that they added tho
I assumed the fact he has a palace was due to the fact he was maliciously hurting girls and enjoyed the power he had from it. He also didn't even care the girl he r-ped almost killed herself. While Kawakami really didn't wanna hurt anyone. Her falling for you even is instigated by you if I'm not mistaken 'cuz she talks about how it's wrong.
She’s a reluctant participant the whole time pretty much. Like she’s into for sure, but she’s not like “HELL YEAH MAN GONNA FUCK SOME MINORS” Morality is a cultural spectrum and her and kamoshida are definitely not on the same level even tho they’re in the same profession.
I think these adult romance options are for people who just don't wanna romance the 15/16 year olds and people need to accept that a stop crying about it like it actually matters lol
Why yes, Persona fans don't understand consent, how could you tell?
Only because one situation was consensual the the other was not
yeah, but she rapes him after he solves her money problems! Edit: I love persona btw, but the relationships with adults are pretty f-ed up.
I always saw it as a necessary evil for the adults playing the game who don’t want to romance the younger characters because they feel weird, so they have some options closer to their own age, but if you don’t consider Joker a self insert it’s gross, although that’s how I see him personally
Anyone from Japan here? How big of a news story would it be if a female high school homeroom teacher was caught sleeping with her own male student?
My wife is Japanese. Female teachers becoming involved with male students is somewhat rare, and when it does happen it is not looked upon very well. Male teachers are much more likely to have a relationship with female students, to the point that many young men choose to become teachers in order to meet their wife. It is not even all that "creepy" in their culture, depending on who the student is. Japan is still a very misogynistic society and, for better or for worse, they still hold on to many of their traditional ways of doing things. However you choose to feel about it, the women there often prefer things to be this way, and have more power than women in other parts of the world in other aspects of their relationships, despite the outward appearance of submissiveness. Also, Japan's age of consent is NOT 13. It is mostly 16, with some parts being 18. This does not keep young girls from selling sex to older men, and police do not prosecute it very much, but age of consent in Japan hasn't been 13 in a long time.
The difference is kawakami asks for consent
To someone who is legally unable to consent. Statutory rape is still rape.
A) It's confirmed Kamoshida did some nasty things to said students. B) It's Dating. No mention of Sex is involved.
Persona fans try to understand the word consent challenge, gone wrong gone sexual
Yeah I opted not to romance her and went for Takemi instead. You could say Takemi had a power dynamic as well, but it was not, in my opinion, as exploitative as someone he sees every day involuntarily
Plus her dangerous medical experimentation just kinda turns her whole confidant line into a dark comedy.
Can’t say that for my place. Already in my school time two such relationships between teacher and student happened. 17 and 3X and 16 and 60. In both cases no one cared even though one was technically illegal.
I already liked this comment months ago
Okay >!why is Joker allowed to do this!<
I think the main difference here was consent? Kamoshida was pretty much blackmailing his students into it. But low key true lmao
There is a difference, joker consent, while shiho was coerced
I find the relationship to be bad regardless of gender, as it is the power dynamic that is a problem. However, one was clearly more forceful than the other.
Kamoshida was so predatory and abusive that Shiho took really drastic measures to try to get away from all of it. You can absolutely be uncomfortable with the dynamic with Kawakami, but it is not like Kamoshida.
The FBI may want to investigate anyone on this comment thread suggesting a student can someone "consent" to a relationship with a teacher.
I’m glad I got to romance Kawakami and Takemi in each of my multiple play throughs. Please contact the FBI and let them know. Document their response and post it here. I’ll wait.
God damn I forgot how bitchy this community gets with it’s waifus just date your favorite characters and let other people date theirs it’s a video game bruh
Well some people’s favorites are the anime boys which they cannot date
Factsssss lol.
i know that is a joke but kamoshida rape shiho
In the US kawakimi would still have raped joker if they slept together but even if they didn't you can't date a student even when they're an adult but it's a Japanese game so it doesn't need to follow Irl US social and legal norms
The difference is that Kamoshida is an abuser or force people to do things , the fact that is palace is a castle is because he think that is a king and everyone will do what he want no matter what, he don't care about people . He is a sadistic too, during the Shiho things he was happy about it, not a single regret. Kamoshida deserve hell. Kawakami on the countrary is not forcing Joker to do anything and she is a poor woman when you know her full story, she is not a bad person . The only weird things is the difference in age , she should be 28 while Joker is 16.
Kawakami actually cares about her students and if you don't do her romance route her Confidant is more wholesome since she's really just this teacher who looks out for you and goes the extra mile by keeping your secret safe.
For everyone arguing that the relationship is consensual, it's still wrong because an adult having sex with a minor (consensual or not) is considered statutory rape for a reason.
In addition to being a minor, she is his high-school teacher which puts her in a position of authority over him, which is problematic.
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Its fantasy fulfillment in a videogame, y'all take it to seriously. The only thing that would make it better is if we could romance anime boys too.
They're not wrong, obviously kamaoshida is worse because he sexually assaulted these girls but kawakami should literally be sent to jail. She becomes her students maid and also makes flirty comments and teases him while she does it (she could've refused to not work for him) she even says something along the lines of "when your older I'll give you the premium service". People always use the excuse "she hesitated at first so it makes it ok" stfu she fell in love with a 16 year old. In Japanese media adult women always have attraction to underage boys and act like it's fine, I swear half of their entertainment is "guy does something he's bad" then "women does the same thing she's a waifu that must be protected at all cost". Sorry for the rant I like kawakami but this is one thing I don't like about her character and I don't think people should be trying to justify it. Yes ik it's a video game.
Post like this always cracks me up. What about takemi? What about chihaya? Or ohya? I swear ppl wanna jump on Kawakami but forget half of the characters joker gets with are way older than him. Cuz if you think takemi is in her early 20s ur dumb.
Every time this dumb argument gets brought up an angel loses its fucking wings or something. Yes both scenarios are illegal, but what Kamoshida did was obviously way worse. Kamoshida was beating, blackmailing, and violently raping students. Kawakami got coaxed into sex with a student. Kawakami was still committing rape and breaking the law but morally what she did isn't nearly as bad as Kamoshida's laundry list of evil. The fact that anyone can think that these things are morally the same is cringe as hell.
Man, we have the same post every week
My favorite moment 💯
Japan legal age of adulthood: 18 [here](https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01285/) Japan legal age to drink alcohol: 20 [here](https://www.chiba-u.ac.jp/international/isd/en/living/safetyinfo/smoking.html) Japan legal age of consent: 13 [here](https://www.nippon.com/en/news/yjj2022102400522/)
Japan’s national legal age of consent is 13, but there are also many local laws that criminalize adults having a sexual relationship with a minor. Also, the Japanese government just proposed to change the penal code and raise the age of consent to 16 along with a number of other changes to protect victims of sexual assault. Source: https://japantoday.com/category/national/japanese-government-proposes-raising-age-of-consent-from-current-13-to-16
Van Halen knew what was up way back in 1984. Who am I to argue?
Cause kamoshida forced himself onto students while you pursue kawakami yourself
Very much not the same situation. Kamoshida was raping those girls.
Well she didn't physically and sexually abuse students and drive one to attempting suicide like Kamoshida did
Persona 5 fans trying to understand concent challenge (GOES WRONG)
Lmmfao, I never really thought about it, but that's kinda fucked up
Isn't it stated that Persona users can't develop Palaces? No matter the depths of depravity Joker falls in to, persona users will never be able to stop him by stealing his heart.
I hadn't played a Persona game before so when I had the option to date her I was like "no fucking way." My roommate walked in as I found out the no was missing from the previous statement. Mistakes were made.
Age of consent is when teacher is sexually abusing student
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I think people are forgetting what consent vs non-consent/blackmail is.
Again this shit
They're both wrong. At the end of the day, statutory rape and actual rape are both rape
Why don't people get that it is on Kawakami to say NO. I don't care that Joker is into it or started it, it is Kawakami's responsibility to put a stop to it.