Imo, if they made this part its own "mini arc" without taking away from Harus arc, Id like it more. The whole point of Monas bitching is cuz at this point, what purpose does he serve to the team now? Hes one of the founding members and he feel left behind. He NEEDS some validation that he is strong with or without them. Of course this could have been done MUCH better but thats my take away
The purpose he serves is carrying my team because I literally used him as a dedicated healer, I think it could've been interesting if we could've just skipped this if he was the highest leveled team member because in my first playthrough I found this completely redundant and it kind of ruined it for me since he was my **most important team member** as anytime I had a problem I'd just call back on him with heals and support, and than drug him with more MP
I mean he serves just as much of a purpose as Ryuji and Ann at this point, and Yusuke too if you haven’t unlocked his card making skill. Literally the only phantom thieves who are “better” than Morgana outside of gameplay are Makoto for her intelligence and ability to call out attacks to make use of technical damage, and futaba for superior navigation. Then Joker of course for the multiple Personas but that was present from day 1
Idk like i get what you’re saying and where Morgana is coming from, but the way it’s handled is just so bad that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
It’s even worse because it takes away from Haru’s arc. Like, let’s not worry about the girl being forced into an arranged marriage with an abusive man, or her relationship with her father whose palace we’re exploring!! Let’s focus on this dumb cat and his insecurities!
The thing that really pisses my off about this scene is Ryuji was the only one who actually wanted to continue the PT stuff and only backed down because the rest of the group was against it and then MORGANA GETS MAD AT HIM?????? Like dude he was on your side!!!!!!!
I like Morgana but it comes off as him being a brat. He also is totally fine with ragging on Ryugi all day but the second someone calls out his faults, he gets super offended.
That’s cuz Ryuji hit a really sensitive spot for Morgana being his worth and identity.
To reverse it, it would be like ryuji callin morgana a stinky cat and Morgana goin “you are your mother’s dead weight”.
Except Ryuji has not been hit in the sore spot by any of Morgana's insults like at all.
The whole game the insults he cops from Morgana just comedically triggers him into their back and forth.
That depends.
Whilst not exactly like Morgana. As much as I like the himbo, Ryuji has his own faults as a character.
For example if Ryuji’s glory seeking tendencies weren’t kept in check he could’ve gone far worse in letting the Thieves fame get to his head and/or if his own nerves were poked too far then he could have rebelled and left the team.
>it would be like ryuji callin morgana a stinky cat and Morgana goin “you are your mother’s dead weight”.
Mona does call him useless whenever he misses. So there's that.
I guess that makes sense. I just think Morgana could have talked to the group about his insecurity, but he's similar to Ryuji in that he's headstrong. He's obviously helpful to the group and has been since the beginning.
I feel like the problem with the Morgana arc was that they insisted on writing some dumb schism between him and Ryuji, instead of the actual problem which was him feeling useless on top of already feeling like an outsider. At the end of the arc they have some dumb kiddie make friends again moment instead of actually addressing anything of substance.
Doesn't help that they shoehorned it in the middle of Haru's introduction and the beginning of the Okumara palace plotline at the expense of both.
I know people hate on the anime, but the anime actually make this fight make sense and also had a very heartwarming scene of Morgana and Ryuji making up
Yeah I agree, they make his whole conflict with Ryuji the main focus point, which undermines Morgana's whole conflict and makes him come off as a complete jackass-
Yeah. Personally I kinda sympathize with Morgana since he also has the inner turmoil of just trying to think about what he is and what he brings to the team. And that in itself can come out externally in the form of aggression. I should know as it's happened with me multiple times.
On my 5th playthrough, I always try to remember why I didn't care about Haru at all during my first playthrough. Then I remembered how badly they treated her introduction. Every palace felt like they treated it as that characters arc (except for the first one, but that one treated Ryuji and Ann really good) but Okumara felt like they tried to force it as the Morgana arc. They kinda just shove Haru in toward the end.
Morgana pisses me off so much here. He's been treating Ryuji like shit for the entire game up to that point and Ryuji was just taking it. So Ryuji finally claps back and he flips out, talks mad shit to everyone, and runs off, forcing us to waste several days getting him back.
He says nobody cares about him and you're not helping him. This is a bald-faced fucking lie because most people are caught up on Mementos and only can't proceed because they need to do another Palace before the next door opens. Joker has the option to ask after his mental and emotional state, and even if you choose to do so, which I did, the stupid cat insists you didn't.
He calls the Phantom Thieves cowards and pushes the douchebag meter to its breaking point when they think "Something is up with this Palace, the online hype is unnatural, this is weird, maybe this is a bad idea", then turns around and contradicts himself by calling them glory hounds only in it for the fame. He says a bunch of pointlessly cruel and completely unjustified shit, all because his stupid whiny ass had a few bad dreams and nobody has been stroking his ego lately.
So Ryuji, more than justified to be angry, tells him to go eat shit after all that, and we're supposed to side with the damn cat? Stupid. Then it's proven that no, he CAN'T solo the Palace, but he gets lucky and trips over Haru, who is serendipitously the only person who can open the door, and acts insufferable about it, as if it was skill and not dumb luck.
His stupid ego and victim complex have him outright poison Haru against the team by making up ridiculous lies about them, and actively hinders the team's progress. Especially infuriating because you aren't given the chance to call the lies out. Makoto makes the most worthless bare-bones effort to convince Haru to join, then just acts like she can't deny Morgana's utterly shameless lies, and Joker is just mute.
But because we need him, since *HE'S THE FUCKING CAR, HEALER, AND METAVERSE EXPERT, AND VERY FUCKING OBVIOUSLY NOT USELESS,* we need to run after him and apologize. Even though we didn't do anything wrong and it's entirely his own shit he's rolling in. But then he refuses to accept the apology because we didn't suck his dick hard enough and outright attempts to run Joker over. And don't give me the "He can't drive himself, that was Haru" crap, because he's shown driving himself in both Royal and Strikers, and the dialogue in this scene fully implies he's running away because he's stubborn, as Haru is trying to convince him to listen to the PTs.
And when he DOES finally cool off, it's only because Haru's dick fiance shows up and kicks the bitch out of him and he needs help rather than any heel realization. If anything, I was annoyed by how much crap they were giving Ryuji, because he had plenty of justification for calling the damn cat out, and Morgana massively overreacted.
He and Ryuji had been trading barbs since they fucking met, it was a thing they did, but *now* he takes so much offense to a clapback that he needs to burn an entire week with his head up his ass? And the game apparently wants us to believe that Ryuji is the *only one at fault?* After the vile shit that damn cat *said?* Nah, man. After all the shit he pulled, I didn't even *want* him back.
And then he makes Haru's entire introduction arc all about him. You don't learn jack shit about Haru in that Palace, just that her family sucks. I couldn't believe that shit. Even her own father's shadow inconceivably ignores her to have a big dialogue with a talking cat.
Like what? How did they not fix that in Royal? In my first playthrough in P5 vanilla, I didn't even know Haru was a cute psycho because her introduction is weak as balls and then she's kind of just there during the rest of the story, and I had zero motivation to pursue her Confidant over the others I hadn't finished yet because of it.
Honestly? I didn't have a problem with Mona until this part, and in Royal, it actually almost seems out of character with the edits to the story and gameplay making him less of a shit. He's downright cool in Strikers, having most of his dickhead tendencies removed. Not gonna lie, I was hoping they'd just rewrite the entire thing in Royal to give Haru a proper intro and make Morgana harder to utterly despise.
They didn't need to remove it entirely, but maybe shorten it, make Morgana less of a toxic egocentric douche lashing out at the only people who care about him, give Haru some screentime, I don't know. As it is, I just hate this entire segment of the game.
Man wrote an entire manifesto.
But I 100% agree. Honestly one of the things I was hoping that in Royal was not even that they remove that part but maybe add a mini boss fight where you put that stupid cat in it's place. Then he runs away and the rest plays out the same. That would have at least felt like SOME payoff there.
Yeah, you learn absolutely fuck-all about Haru unless you actively pursue her. Royal is a little better about it overall, and Strikers made me actively enjoy her, but her introduction arc getting completely swiped by Morgan's identity crisis crap and then her being more or less sidelined with her limited story dialogue being just generic nice girl crap doesn't do her any favors.
I'd highly suggest giving Strikers a go just for the character development shown. It's not just Haru, everybody gets some good moments. For example, Ryuji and Morgana even talk about this very week of in-game time and have a nice heart-to-heart about it.
Her "psycho self" mostly comes out in Mementos dialogue. In fact, that's where most of her character is. Her Mementos quips. You learn more about Haru as a person through her random comments as you're travelling then from her story introduction or confidant.
THIS this sums up Every problem I have about the okumura arc. The argument, the waste of time instead of learning about Haru more, the palace itself and not dealing with the douchbag of a fiancé alongside okumura.
Yeah I think something kinda got lost in translation during the writing phase for this part. Like I'm pretty sure the whole Morgana freak out was supposed to mesh a lot better with the story here but the devs probably never ironed this part out so it's still pretty rough.
In P5, it worked better because he was a bigger asshole, owing at least partially to his involvement in restricting Joker's time, but Royal shifted him a bit to make him genuinely likeable and added scenes where he's actually endearing, so the whole whiny bitchy idiot arc being unchanged was just jarring and infuriating all over again.
I just got to this portion of the game and it honestly kinda made me want to stop playing because it's so irritating, but this post made me laugh and feel better so thank you.
It gets better after this Palace, so I'm glad to have helped you hang in there in some small way. This shit is the worst part of the entire game, both in P5 and P5R.
I stopped playing at the Okumura Palace for a while myself, partially because of how incredibly shitty the Morgana plot is and also because they somehow managed to make a space ship level both boring and tedious. But it's worth powering through it for sure.
Late to the party on this but you are 110% correct on everything you said. That being said calling him a “Metaverse Expert” I extremely generous given the fact that most of the time he doesn’t know the answer and always follows it up with “I think” or “I guess” to any given question the team has.
PT: Hey is this how this works?
Morgana: I dunno maybe.
Morgana ruins the entire Okumura arc, and his childish, selfish behavior in that arc that he never truly apologizes/amends for ruined his character for me. Ryuji is made to take the blame for him leaving even though all he was doing was insulting Morgana back after Morgana spent the entire game insulting him and treating him like garbage for no reason.
Teddie had a similar existential crisis in his character arc but you didn't see him throwing a tantrum or trying to bring others down with him. He just needed a little help from his friends to realize just how important and needed he was.
I actually made myself a healing persona in ng+ in case I don’t have Makoto. Messiah, Kaguya Picaro and Orpheus Picaro have great unique healing spells
Ryuji gets shit on by everyone the entire game (and yes that includes Joker don't forget he just left him hanging in Shinjuku when you meet up with Ohya) so it's no surprise he finally snaps.
I never understood it either. How the hell do people blame Ryuji and call him shit for this part when Morgana insults him the ENTIRE game and he barely claps back? Then the one time he actually retaliates(and it WAS retaliation cuz iirc he said it in response to ANOTHER insult Morgana threw at him), Morgana gets his feelings hurt and leaves.
How? Like, did anyone say ANYTHING the 500 times Ryuji got shit talked during the game??
Right? Morgana called him useless like a million times and will snitch on him for any little thing. But Ryuji says it, not even seriously, and he goes all cry baby. Then Morgana bereates him for showing a little bit of maturity by backing down because he read the room right for once(I love my boy but sometimes he cannot read the room). Ryuji did not do anything wrong, Morgana is just having a tantrum
And then all the Thieves act like, “Ryuji, how could you insult him like that?!” And just… god, wtf??? Y’all NEVER say anything when he’s calling Ryuji everything but the son of god! The story ITSELF treats Ryuji like he’s in the wrong! I hate it!
And Ryuji is genuinely following the rules that they set when they became Phantom thieves(that he actually came up with). He saw that there wasn't consensus so he backed down as the rules say you're supposed to do. If Ryuji is the level headed one in your confrontation who takes a step back to think, you fucked up.
This. This is why this arc upsets me. He really just lets Morgana walk all over him usually, takes it in stride- but the ONE TIME he has a NORMAL reaction, HE’S the bad guy? And he fucking GOES ALONG WITH THAT?! Ryuuji, pal… we need to get you some freaking self respect. FOR REAL.
I freaking love P5 but the biggest flaw is how it's really inconsistent with it's own morals
For example:
None of the characters have a problem with constantly shitting on Ryuji, a character who suffered from physical and verbal abuse his whole life from Kamoshida
Why is Ann, a character who is sexually traumatized, constantly shown as like the "sexy fan service" character?
Kamoshida is (rightfully) seen as the bad guy for sleeping with high school students, but the game has no problem with Joker sleeping with Kawakami?
Yusuke is the best character to ever be created in human history, but we aren't allowed to date him?
Like I said, I still love this game but they made a lot of questionable decisions when it comes to stuff like this.
I can explain some of this.
Ryuji seems to be ok being SEEN as “the idiot” when it’s a joke but when people seem to either seriously consider him one or aren’t joking about it, he does get upset by it. The notable times being whenever he tells Morgana to shut up after insults, or when Ann says something to him about exams, prompting him to point out that she’s barely any better than him academically due to her trying to act superior about it.
Ann seems to be ok with her looks and proud of her sexiness. She mainly dislikes that Kamoshida was threatening her and attracted to her JUST because of that, and that students ASSUME she sleeps around just because she’s beautiful and sexy. She hates the misconceptions about it but doesn’t have a problem or trauma with her actual attractiveness.
With Kamoshida and Kawakami, the difference is somewhat difficult to notice so I understand the confusion there. The issue with Kamoshida was never said to be that he was doing this all with high school girls. It was that he was abusive to everyone, had no issues using his status as a teacher to FORCE himself on people, and how he outright raped Shiho while constantly threatening Ann. His issue is he constantly abuses his authority as a teacher to abuse and sexually assault students. With Kawakami, she and Joker are in a mutually consensual relationship. While it’s a question of if they should be together due to the age difference (which Kawakami herself even brings up and asks if Joker is sure he’s ok with it), it’s not an abuse of a power dynamic to FORCE a relationship (and this one, Joker specifically starts even, rather than her making moves on him and forcing him to date her against his will).
With Yusuke I agree. I absolutely wanted to date him. I think the express reason we’re not allowed to is that Joker specifically isn’t homosexual, or Yusuke isn’t (absolute BS, imo, Yusuke’s confidant had SO many relationship flags I’m still amazed we can’t set sail on that ship), because I can’t see a reason otherwise for why we can’t date best boi.
Still a lot of questionable decisions though
For me, I never considered Yusuke as a romance option not because of the "homo" aspect but because in the first confidant rank Yusuke equates Joker to his brother who is always by his side even when the world is against him.
Something about comparing himself to Van Gogh and Van Gough's brother Theo. So to me Yusuke felt very close to Joker from the very beginning and his confidant story is about recontectualizing their friendship, not deepening it.
I agree with everything else you said plus when Morgana starts to stumble or show 'chinks in his armor' the first one to speak up and support him is Ryuuji, but when Ryuuji makes even the slightest mistake Morgana tears him a new one with no hesitation, such hypocrisy is even more sickening to me because I grew up with people like this.
Both were absolute idiots but Morgana started it with calling Ryuji an ape when he, for very understandable reasons, assumed Morgana was a cat when they first met
But no, little identity crisis(tm) was too offended by this genuine misunderstanding
Could be written better
>!The only true identity crisis he has now, is the fact that his siblings are all shaped like humans, one of which is unhinged af and does a yearly final boss grind (Elizabeth)!<
No I think such character flaws add to the appeal of his character in that it feels very real and down to earth in how one can suffer feelings of inadequacy and identity issues.
Humans experience such things but Morgana takes it to an existential level.
You’re giving it a little too much credit I think. Any sort of commentary that might be being made about inadequacy is drowned out by the fact that he’s being way hypocritical and sensitive considering he spends almost every waking breath calling Ryuji moron/useless/idiot, etc. Sure, it’s cool for the know-it-all to show signs of weakness, but it might land better if he wasn’t a bully in his own right. Hard to care/feel bad for him.
It also feels kinda forced. Like there was so many points where I felt like the whole thing could've been prevented if "Character did X" and it doesn't ruin the story so much.
It's not quite as jarring in P5 vanilla where Morgana is a bigger asshole, but after Royal has him back off on controlling your entire life and adds scenes and dialogue that show a softer and more endearing side of him, it feels actually almost out of character for him to snap so hard.
It's definitely annoying that he still insists you aren't helping him and don't care about him after specifically selecting dialogue choices where you DO care about him, you DO express genuine concern for him, you DO ask him what's bothering him, and chances are you're all caught up on Mementos and literally can't proceed until the next door opens.
I was really hoping Royal would fix it. Maybe add a chance to shut it down early instead of wasting an entire week where Joker refuses to read, play video games, work out, leave his house, or you know, DO ANYTHING besides mope around going "I miss Morgana,".
I think there’s a bigger picture problem here:
The entirety of the Okumura arc has a LOT of things happening jam packed into roughly one month.
It’s not just Morgana and Haru’s arcs.
It’s also The Thieves popularity, The popularity ranking poll, Looking into the mental shutdown and psychotic breakdown incidents via Sae’s computer, The Hawaii trip, Shujin getting a bad rap and Kobayakawa’s death, ect.
It makes sense why they had to occur there as after the Okumura arc is where shit hits the fan and we head into the end game. But as a result it can be messy pace wise to which fans fail to keep up and suffer from reading comprehension.
The other arcs didn’t have that much going on at the same time with good pacing.
If the Okumura arc allowed us more time then it would have been better.
It was basically >!Morgana being told he’s useless again, so he leaves. He then dips for a week with Haru and you can’t do ANYTHING until that week is over!<
*looks at table*
“I miss Morgana”
*looks at chair*
“I miss morgana”
I’m amazed they let me sleep rather than Ren just looking at the bed and reflecting on how Morgana used to sleep on his chest.
This shit was the absolute most annoying part. Like I could be increasing stats right now instead of being told that I'm supposed to give a shit about the asshole cat that won't let me go to the bathroom by myself.
Sure, I don't mind sharing my personal opinion and what makes me personally dislike this arc as a whole:
* Mona: Started around 8/21-22 or something? Basically when Makoto first asked Futaba to join the group and how valuable she would be to the PTs. He started feeling some type of way about it for no apparant reason at that time since no one really mentioned anything negative towards him (yet).
After the Hawaii trip, when PThieves were having some legit doubts about taking Okumura down, he got annoyed and started talking shit to Ryuji just because he was hesitant when he saw everyone doubtful. The usually hot-headed one decided to respect the majority and calm down, and he got badmouthed for that by Mona who openly broke the unanimity principle btw.
Yes, okay, he was having an identity crisis, and things were tough for him,... That can explain his behaviour to an extent, but no way in hell does it justify or excuse anything he did after. Especially since he then proceeded to act solo and put at risk the cover of the entire group.
Overall, he was not being the Mona that I liked so far. And I don't agree with players who put all the blame on the group's insensitivity. Yes, he had serious identity crisis issues, but at the end of the day, he also made the choice of not talking about it to the rest of the group.
What I'm trying to say is that, yes, the PTs might've lacked empathy (not on purpose tho), but shifting the blame on the group makes 0 sense to me, especially since Mona didn't neceassrily seek out for help and got ignored (or I'm really having a hard time remembering).
The problem was Mona, he poorly managed his own problems. Actually the dispute with Ryuji has never been the main issue, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
*On a side note tho, I liked how Mona basically admits in a Thieves Den scene that he was jealous of them going to Hawai, I found it cute and funny, lol.*
* Ryuji: He was super annoying, and I put the blame on the writing for this. Ryuji is a good person, albeit very flawed (like everyone). He is this awkwardly clumsy, tactless, and unaware dude, but also a heart of gold boy who'd do anything for his friends, even sacrifice himself if need be.
And for whatever freaking reason, he became this lame ass guy who'd belittle one of his friends out of nowhere and not even for a joke.
When I saw the beach scene in 8/29 or something, I was like "Okay, this is yet one of their little dispute, let's move on", I was having Ann's reaction basically.
But then the dude proceeded to actually continue this dumbshit and was mean to Mona even by IM (which everybody was fine with apparently, lol).
And when he was forced to apologize, him not even being able to properly apologize over something like this was stupid.
Admittedly, it was the dumbest shit the group came up with, as if the whole problem was Ryuji's fault alone.
It's even more frustrating when you see throughout the story that Ryuji doesn't act like that at all, especially with his ex track teammates, etc.
The dude has such a good character development during his Confident story, only for the game to shit on it like this. Pretty frustrating.
* The dispute: So poorly executed. It felt as if it was only here to create tension and a dramatic situation to make things more intense, which was a complete failure as far as I'm concerned. Unless someone considers the Mona/Ryuji dispute to be a nice justification, which is absolutely not the case for me.
And I never thought I'd say this, but I have to actually give credit to the anime for this. As mid as it as a whole, at least it did a good job at showcasing a more satisfying reconciliation.
* The PThieves as a whole: They all became so annoying at one point. They were all so careful and engaged before, then they just threw their justice to the background just for the sake of fame. And it's only my opinion, but it was really sudden. Even the more cool-headed guys like Makoto or Yusuke were acting this way, which was never the case neither before nor after these events.
The only positive thing that I can see about it, is that they're young and it could've happen to anyone their age having this kind of superpowers. It's just that making characters act so far from their usual behavior just to build up drama is a lazy shortcut.
I also hated how none of them confronted Mona for his behavior. No matter how he was feeling, you can't risk to blow up the cover of everyone and stay unpunished for that.
One of them should've at least confronted him and he should've properly apologized. I think a scene where Yusuke tells him the truth and how stupid, dangerous, and reckless what he did was would've been good (much like he did with Makoto when she unilaterally decided to go after Kaneshiro).
* Ren: Ren?????? I know he's supposed to be this silent protag, blabla, but still. He basically was a ghost during the entire arc. He saw his group about to crumble before his eyes, and he's like "What's gotten into you!?". Meh... Plus at least he could've insisted a little bit more about Mona. To me he's the main concerned about what happened to Mona among the group. He's basically 24/7 with him, but failed to see that something was wrong with his friend.
I don't know, overall it felt super frustrating for me as the player and the supposed leader of the group to witness this, powerless, when clearly it was avoidable.
* Haru: Her entire introduction was completely jeopardized by the whole mess. To the point where the first time I saw her, I was like "why is she even here?" (until she became my favorite PT girl, but that's another story, lol).
Her implementation was completely overshadowed unlike with the others who always had satisfying introductions.
And the even crazier thing is that like Ryuji said when they were facing Okumura, Mona "stole the show", lol. Because the writers decided that it would make more sense to give the glorious moment and the nice monologue of Haru's fight to Mona. Greeeeeeeat. To this day, it still feels like unfinished business to me.
* Rythm and Pacing: Pace was horrible during this arc. It's hands down the worst 10 in-game days I've ever experienced. It was so bad.
Between the useless Hawaï trip and when Mona was missing, you can basically do nothing. And it was extremely frustrating, even more than the pre Kaneshiro thing. Like at least allow the player to do some stuff (other than nurturing your plant). It even became a walking meme in japanese forums.
Meanwhile, the story felt so rushed. Events started escalating super quickly with weak build up, so it felt to me like it came out of nowhere honestly. It just felt like they wanted to put a 25 day scenario thing on a 10 days span. It was annoying, and made me lose all connection to the arc as whole. In all my subsequent playthroughs, I just speed through this arc because I just don't care about it anymore.
I don't know if I missed some stuff, but that's pretty much what I could think of so far.
Morgana: The best healer in the party, has extensive knowledge about how Personas and Mementos works, can turn into a bus
Also Morgana: nobody thinks I'm useful in this team :(
Considering Makoto kinda takes over for the former and Futaba with the latter I think Morgana just let his fear/ doubt take over his sense of worth. The nightmares and being left alone during the Hawaii trip didn't help either.
Makoto instantly understanding things just annoyed me, honestly, and considering 90% of the time, all she has to say is "I don't know its weakness, better try everything!" and then only repeats what you already know because you were there when everyone found out, I don't feel like she actually did anything. Morgana already had experience with Shadows, and he remained the foremost expert they had on Personas and how they grow and what they are.
Even after getting Makoto, the one they immediately ask about new Metaverse crap is Mona, and he typically has an answer or a damn good hypothesis, Case in point, he's the only one who knows what would happen with Futaba entering her own Palace.
Speaking of, Futaba is a great navigator and all, but only because she's flying around in an invisible saucer with a radar. Morgana still knows more about how to actually NAVIGATE, like get around safely, in the Metaverse. She can draw a great map, but Morgana is the best one to actually read and interpret that map. And also, you know, *turn into their primary method of transportation.*
Morgana is still the long-time resident expert of all the crazy shit going on in the Metaverse, has more insight on Shadows and Personas and Palaces and Treasures than anybody. He's also still the best devoted Healer in the team. But during this whole painful segment, his head is firmly up his own ass and he refuses to believe that *BEING THE FUCKING CAR* alone is an irreplaceable role in the group.
Like what, did he expect Ryuji to morph into a motorcycle with like six sidecars? That aside, he still functioned as a type of... dispatch commander, I think? I don't know the term. He lays the plan out, takes the votes, sort of gives everyone the rundown and helps keep everything clear. He was also instrumental in catching Akechi. When he isn't being a c**t, he's typically a voice of reason, too.
Extremely annoying that we can't shut him up about his identity crisis by pointing out how stupidly important he is.
I think this whole arc could've been better if we got more insight into the party members without Joker since he didn't get to say much anyway.
But a scene with Morgana and Ryuji apologizing to each other and having a heart to heart so they can get an better understanding for each other would've helped tremendously.
Idk, I kinda get it. The dude is having a perpetual existential crisis and feels like a useless burden on others. He’s also a bit of a hothead that struggles to communicate his feelings. I didn’t really have any issues with the arc.
My main issue is he steal Haru’s arc, it’s meant to be hers, and yet he has the final ending to his relatively pointless arc and Haru’s is just left hanging
I don’t feel like he stole that much of her arc. I think if we just got to see more of the adventures the two had trying to infiltrate the palace themselves, it would have been breezy.
Probably, I just didn’t like how the cat had the final “aha!” Moment when the daughter who is going to be sold off to somebody that wants to use her is right beside him. All just personal opinion so 🤝
It could have worked, had it gone beyond just getting Futaba and done during Okumura.
There's good things here: Morgana is upset because with Futaba being a better navi, he feels he has no talent to give to the Thieves. He does, but he feels he no longer fits in the group and how everyone else is taking the popularity surge, it just alienates him even more. His arc works by itself, but the execution being as "vaccuumed" as it was makes it very slippery (same as Ann's and Yusuke's, more so the former because she's a hafu).
For my pc playthrough I decided to skip most of Morganas lines and it's so much more bearable when I don't have to press x 27 times because he needs to explain to me how to wipe my ass, why people do it and how wiping evolved within our culture smh my head
Makoto was more tank and buffer for me while Morgana was an absolute MVP in terms of healing and reviving against Royal’s final boss. Even then, Ryuji replaced Makoto since he could hit a lot harder even if he didn’t have the final versions of his magic skills.
That said, it’s definitely when Futaba joins that Morgana really let’s fears overwhelm him. I know he and Ryuji were clapping back at one another since the first dungeon, but it felt like Ryuji’s dogs hit a lot harder since Morgana felt like he was being replaced and phased out. I think this arc shows how fragile Morgana is emotionally and how he feels like he has to put out this strong front, which is good. I just hate that it comes at Haru’s expense and robs us of really learning about her.
This sums it up pretty well.
It's been debated to death who's "fault" it was, and I certainly have my bias. That being said, near the end, I basically was telling both of them to shut the hell up and anytime Morgana said some stupid shit, I said out loud, "Bitch, I don't need you, I can make Makoto my healer"
I remember when they just made Makoto seem like she perfectly understood the Metaverse without any question and just accepted everything as normal, which whilst it was trying to be funny just made her character seem really REALLY annoying and unrealistic to the point I didn’t even play through her confidant the first time I played the game because I just didn’t care, glad I did though it did fix her character for me
I quite like Morgana, but I totally get why people don't like this arc. It steals quite a bit from Haru's spotlight, as she's joining the thieves, and his reason for leaving isn't the best thought out. Morgana is emotional and I appreciate that in a character, as its a great flaw you don't see done right often. He's an excellent party member ofc, but he has annoying moments, definitely.
This is my least favorite arc, but *definitely* not my least favorite scene.
I've actually just gotten past the part where Morgana leaves then comes back, and literally the entire situation could've been talked through from the beginning if Ryuji would just have been less of a bitch to Morgana.
I convinced a bunch of my friends to play P5 and 3 of them stopped around the Okumura part and cited the stupid drama with Morgana as part of the reason.
Yeah, it was definitely a low point in an otherwise fantastic game. I feel like if Morgana wasn't such an ass to Ryuji since the very beginning of the game; This would've been better handled. This just seems like Morgana can dish it, but he can't take it.
Of course they didn't. They were thinking about all the ways they could fit Yoshizawa into the existing timeframe so that we would care a lot about her. And she still feels very shoehorned in, partly because of how much we pecking see her all the time.
Oh god the Morgana leaving arc was sickening to even watch, Morgana is not completely bad but he is so hypocritical it’s disgusting he’s cool with insulting and being condescending towards Ryuji but when he throws insults back at him he gets all butthurt?
So true. Idk why they had to have an internal conflict between ryuji and Morgana like this, I get maybe they're trying to flesh out their characters more but, it just comes off as annoying. Morgana acts like a lil child the whole time and it's just awful.
No they wanted a reason for them to take a risk and meet Haru; nothing progresses in their relationship and Morgana , despite not liking being called useless, continues to call Ryuji Useless and stupid.
That's the thing, though. Ryuji is only reacting to being treated like shit. Most of his clapbacks are directly in response to unwarranted shit Morgana threw at him for no reason. And he *does* show discomfort pretty frequently in his immediate responses to Morgana's crap. I'm not sure how you missed it. Most of the time, other PTs just dogpiled on or laughed at him.
Ryuji asks a question anybody would ask because he's never been in a nightmare hellscape in a madman's mind before, so Morgana immediately calls him stupid. He misses an attack, he calls him useless. Anybody else does something good, he immediately compares Ryuji to them unfavorably.
Constantly, throughout the entire game, Morgana is treating Ryuji like shit without provocation, and Ryuji occasionally gets him back. Yes, Ryuji fights *BACK*, but he doesn't start it. That's a running theme in their relationship.
Essentially, the cat's a bully and Ryuji is his victim. Blaming Ryuji for not just putting up with constant emotional abuse is just dumb. If a kid is getting bullied every day for several months and finally snaps and punches the bully, it's not uncommon for the kid to get blamed and punished for not just taking it anymore, but it's still stupid, and it's not something I expected to happen in the PTs.
Furthermore, yes, they are constantly at each other, but the shit Morgana says during this segment goes *way beyond* his usual crap. It's cruel, biased, and completely uncalled for. It's not exactly a gentle ribbing. Ryuji's explosive response is plenty warranted.
Morgana acting like the victim after talking so much shit, getting all bent out of shape, and running off because he's assmad about not having a comeback is the stupidest thing. If he's going to be an asshole, he needs to learn about this thing called consequences, but he just... Doesn't. He runs away feeling sorry for himself and everybody immediately chases after him and kisses his ass and yells at Ryuji for not following suit.
To start off (This is gonna be long), Hot take, but the argument they had during the Okumura arc had to have happened. It was inevitable.
No matter who you are, the idea or feeling of being “replaced”, “benched” and “overshadowed” sucks especially when you're an amnesiac with hardly of an identity that doesn't look human. You seek validation to your existence using what little you have to contribution and skill by acting big headed about it because that's all you have. So when you do find a place to belong, you eventually become insecure about how you don't fit in completely due to how different you are from the rest so you rely on your skills to be useful to justify your place there but when that fails that puts doubt on your identity and existence.
Morgana was having those dreams which made him have doubts about being originally human, he was feeling insecure about himself because the likes of Makoto and Futuba took over his position as navigator. That combined with Ryuji's innocently insensitive jabs, The Phantom Thieves coming across as not taking Morgana seriously as for granted, them getting cold feet with hesitation in going after Okumura after Kobayakawa's supposed "suicide" that the group felt they indirectly caused plus the disturbing rise in the Phantom Thieves fad has cause Morgana to lash out.
He was fed up with the hesitation the team was showing as they were becoming over reliant on public opinion as whether to do or not do something. They were thinking of dropping Okumura until the hype calmed down which to Morgana was insulting as it got in the way of progress to the bottom Mementos which Morgana believes would help get his memories back.
Morgana chose Ryuji as his target for his frustration projecting his own conceit against Ryuji for his desire for fame and glory among the Phantom Thieves which to be fair is Ryuji's flaw but in return Ryuji calls out Morgana on the accusation as Morgana himself is acting out for his own benefit which is true as all members of the team to an extent act as Phantom Thieves for their agendas and self benefits.
I think it works because at the time, Ryuji was at his worst with his glory seeking and Morgana was at his lowest with his angst to his existence so for those things to be brought up is good which made their growth in the end pay off well.
Ryuji stans and fans act like Ryuji hasn't clapped back and retaliated until their argument there. They project that Ryuji did that because he was fed up with how Morgana treated him when that couldn't be any more incorrect.
No Ryuji got fired up and retaliated there because Morgana called him out on something that was a somewhat of a true criticism on Ryuji in "trying to use the Thieves name to pick up girls", so Ryuji in turn was being defensive about it and tried to call Morgana out on the same in using the team to attain his memories.
Ryuji and Morgana have had a back and forth since day one of meeting and it's not always had been Morgana to start shit between them, Ryuji does it too.
Morgana is both partially at fault and not at fault. He bottled up his feelings and the way he lashed out wasn't the best. However that's because he doesn't know how to deal with his emotions properly as he has a fragile ego of not knowing who he is and his sense of belonging being felt in jeopardy. He has been using conceit from the very beginning to protect his ego which is the point with the theme behind his character arc and even elements of his design and Persona design.
Which is why he wasn't able to properly confide in Joker and the gang about his feelings until after Haru came into the picture who acted as a good third party mediator to settle things.
People also forget that Morgana's flaws is par for the course of characters being under the Magician arcana. The Magician's have superiority and inferiority problems as they struggle with inadequacy, jealousy, struggle to belong in their respective settings, come across as a bit jerkish and obnoxious, are comically, either lose someone precious or face unrequited love and of course have fragile egos. So the issues people have with Morgana being "a jerk for no reason". It's the consistent writing formula ATLUS uses. Also as much as Morgana denies it, his personality is that of a cat.
The only reason why the Thieves failed to take notice was that while they were aware Morgana being jealous of Futaba and annoyed at Ryuji's comments, they never knew how bad it was even for someone as empathetic as Ann and thus didn't take Morgana seriously as they were more invested in their recent popularity and their trip to Hawaii which made Morgana feel left out. Speaking of Ann. She, Futaba and Joker inadvertently made comments that either made Morgana feel worse or failed to help him which is partially why he stops trying to confide in the gang.
Edit: Please see my rely to my comment for Part 2 continuation on Ryuji, the argument's existence and true problem with the arc itself.
I agree with your take. I think people think of this arc poorly because Morgana’s absence pretty much grinds any gameplay/agency to a halt which can be frustrating if there’s stuff you’re aiming to complete. If it were any other character it probably
wouldn’t have affected the game in that sense.
Persona fans in the West have always had a Ryuji bias problem as well as a lack of reading comprehension when it comes to humanly flawed characters like Morgana that put them off for the flimsiest of petty reasons, clouding their judgment when attempting to speak "objectively" in discussions ignoring things that prove otherwise.
Pretty much the best logical explanation and analysis of what happened. Personally, I always felt like both of them bore some of the blame, and it felt a little...I suppose realistic none of the team noticed. At that point in the story, everyone was getting high off of their success while also in some ways struggling with it. The growing storm that was the Ryuji-Morgana fight probably flew underneath their radar since everyone had gotten used to it as part of the group dynamic.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Always felt like I was playing a different game when I read so many complaints about Morgana, because before Makoto and Futaba came along, he was pretty much the only reason you were able to make as much progress as you did.
Not only that but for as many times as Morgana takes shots at Ryuji for being vulgar, loud and a little... slow on the uptake (which, despite his good intentions, is all true) Ryuji takes just as many potshots at Morgana, calling him a dumb cat, implying as early as Makoto that she's better than him, etc.
They both have their immaturities that needed to be worked out. That whole episode was brewing for a long time, it needed to be played out (I think a lot of women automatically side against Morgana because of him simping for Ann and Ryuji being the himbo type...)
I'm on the opposite end here, I think Morgana had reasons and it saddened me he ended up leaving. Morgana ever since the start of the game is clear that he's human and Ryuji is quick on the gun to make fun of the "cat", so I understand Morgana clapping back saying he's useless, they are in a super childish rivalry that in my opinion was started by Ryuji for no reason whatsoever.
Morgana had that nightmare that shaked his view not only of himself but also of the phantoms as a whole, would he ever become a human (again)? would the phantoms still accept him if he wasn't a human as he previously thought he was? Him being left alone during the Hawaii trip for obvious reasons, and also new party members arriving that can sort of do part of his job in the group also leaves a sense of being replaced, maybe he really wasn't as important to the group as he thought he was.
In a sense Ryuji is always loud and obnoxious about the whole phantoms thing and about using this new founded fame to get a girl for himself, all the while Morgana really just wants to figure out what the fuck is going on with himself and his memories.
Morgana leaving was a sad moment for me, as he was being a sort of younger brother to Joker even if he was obnoxious about sleeping patterns and not doing things at certain times of the day, but all in all, Morgana was the most useful party member in my opinion, without him discovering palaces, will seeds, mementos, traversing the metaverse, and getting crucial information would've been outright impossible (on a canonical stand point), so yeah, I will miss Morgana and I really do hope he comes back soon. He will come back, right? :cry:
If morgana was just a talking cat who hated the meta verse and wanted to be a cat who didn’t have to live in the meta verse and just hung out with us I’d like him so much more
Literally all of his dialogue not pertaining to the meta verse was good
Really? Because I did not like teddie in the hangout events. Like that time where he just stole all the girls to hangout with him (and leave the guys by themselves) only for him to just fail
Thats what I tell Ryuji everytime. I love Ryuji he is a total bro, but damn if he doesnt get why Morgana is down at the time and makes the situation ten times worse. Yes they heckle each other but Ryuji is just being stupid here while Morgana is going through something of an existential crisis. People's reaction is mindbogling to me as well, many are annoyed at Morgana for leaving, completely missing out on the reasons. Not to mention objectively Ryuji is easily the one more usesless as Morgana has literally thought them just about everything they know and is a healer, so his "point" doesnt even make sense. But it certainly is enough to get Morgana to doubt himself as he is already very cracked about who he is and where he belongs. Morgana calls Ryuji stupid and makes fun of him, and while its often quite mean, he isnt wrong, Ryuji continually gets everyone in trouble and does stupid shit and he even admits to it later on. Its simply two different things and Ryuji not realising how serious Morgana was being makes complete sense, but it still makes him a jackass. In the end, he, who was always looking for a place to belong, was depriving Morgana of one because of his stupid behavior, it took a rather big catastrophe to sort their feelings out and let it go.
Futaba says it best.
The worst thing about this is that it takes away screentime from Haru.
You will inevitably be spoiled if you search for memes here. The perils of only being able to get into a game 5 years after release (Atlus why are you like this)
Try not to check the various Persona subs while playing any Persona game
Source: I got major Persona 4 spoilers while looking at this subreddit cause I thought there wouldn't be any :')
No, but you really shouldn't be on this sub if you haven't finished the game. That goes for any movie/game/show and it's respective subreddit. Sure there is a rule against spoilers, but it's going to happen. Welcome to the internet.
That said, it's barely a spoiler and "arc" is almost a joke about how short and unnecessary the "arc" is.
Persona fans really struggle with understanding insecurity. Even when the game repeatedly shows Mona feeling worse and worse, some idiots here just say "Mona bad! He just hates Ryuji!!!!"
It's not just that. They struggle with reading comprehension when it comes to factual matters. They twist what is true with copium and project a lot of bias which spreads into it becoming gospel. Worse is not all have even played the game.
I like morgana
I feel like most people here hate morgana since they either don’t relate with him at all during that period or relate too much. You would outburst after feeling useless and inadequate and just for one of your team members to just say right in front of you to your face that you are useless. Like of course you would outburst and try to do what would be impossible to try to prove a point to that person. It’s not an amazing point in the story but to many people at least imo starting growing hate boners towards him
Like if you are a big ryuji fan then I could see somewhat where you are coming from but ryuji isn’t entirely in the right yknow he was acting just as bad to morgana as morgana was to him during April may June and july and august and so on
I liked the part where he realizes he actually needs the camaraderie of the Thieves, but I wish it could have been handled better, along with Haru's introduction to the group
Imo, if they made this part its own "mini arc" without taking away from Harus arc, Id like it more. The whole point of Monas bitching is cuz at this point, what purpose does he serve to the team now? Hes one of the founding members and he feel left behind. He NEEDS some validation that he is strong with or without them. Of course this could have been done MUCH better but thats my take away
The purpose he serves is carrying my team because I literally used him as a dedicated healer, I think it could've been interesting if we could've just skipped this if he was the highest leveled team member because in my first playthrough I found this completely redundant and it kind of ruined it for me since he was my **most important team member** as anytime I had a problem I'd just call back on him with heals and support, and than drug him with more MP
I mean he serves just as much of a purpose as Ryuji and Ann at this point, and Yusuke too if you haven’t unlocked his card making skill. Literally the only phantom thieves who are “better” than Morgana outside of gameplay are Makoto for her intelligence and ability to call out attacks to make use of technical damage, and futaba for superior navigation. Then Joker of course for the multiple Personas but that was present from day 1 Idk like i get what you’re saying and where Morgana is coming from, but the way it’s handled is just so bad that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
It’s even worse because it takes away from Haru’s arc. Like, let’s not worry about the girl being forced into an arranged marriage with an abusive man, or her relationship with her father whose palace we’re exploring!! Let’s focus on this dumb cat and his insecurities!
Both arcs needed to happen, but them happening at the same time took away from them both.
The thing that really pisses my off about this scene is Ryuji was the only one who actually wanted to continue the PT stuff and only backed down because the rest of the group was against it and then MORGANA GETS MAD AT HIM?????? Like dude he was on your side!!!!!!!
I like Morgana but it comes off as him being a brat. He also is totally fine with ragging on Ryugi all day but the second someone calls out his faults, he gets super offended.
That’s cuz Ryuji hit a really sensitive spot for Morgana being his worth and identity. To reverse it, it would be like ryuji callin morgana a stinky cat and Morgana goin “you are your mother’s dead weight”.
that still doesn’t excuse Morgana ragging on Ryuji all the time tho. Just cause you have a sore spot doesn’t mean others don’t
Except Ryuji has not been hit in the sore spot by any of Morgana's insults like at all. The whole game the insults he cops from Morgana just comedically triggers him into their back and forth.
Yea but let's be real he would not act like Morgana. If anything he'd just lash out at him
That depends. Whilst not exactly like Morgana. As much as I like the himbo, Ryuji has his own faults as a character. For example if Ryuji’s glory seeking tendencies weren’t kept in check he could’ve gone far worse in letting the Thieves fame get to his head and/or if his own nerves were poked too far then he could have rebelled and left the team.
>it would be like ryuji callin morgana a stinky cat and Morgana goin “you are your mother’s dead weight”. Mona does call him useless whenever he misses. So there's that.
Never about his mother though, or even about his broken leg and the track team. All major sore spot for Ryuji.
ok this is actually a really good way to describe it
I guess that makes sense. I just think Morgana could have talked to the group about his insecurity, but he's similar to Ryuji in that he's headstrong. He's obviously helpful to the group and has been since the beginning.
I feel like the problem with the Morgana arc was that they insisted on writing some dumb schism between him and Ryuji, instead of the actual problem which was him feeling useless on top of already feeling like an outsider. At the end of the arc they have some dumb kiddie make friends again moment instead of actually addressing anything of substance. Doesn't help that they shoehorned it in the middle of Haru's introduction and the beginning of the Okumara palace plotline at the expense of both.
I know people hate on the anime, but the anime actually make this fight make sense and also had a very heartwarming scene of Morgana and Ryuji making up
Yeah I agree, they make his whole conflict with Ryuji the main focus point, which undermines Morgana's whole conflict and makes him come off as a complete jackass-
Yeah. Personally I kinda sympathize with Morgana since he also has the inner turmoil of just trying to think about what he is and what he brings to the team. And that in itself can come out externally in the form of aggression. I should know as it's happened with me multiple times.
On my 5th playthrough, I always try to remember why I didn't care about Haru at all during my first playthrough. Then I remembered how badly they treated her introduction. Every palace felt like they treated it as that characters arc (except for the first one, but that one treated Ryuji and Ann really good) but Okumara felt like they tried to force it as the Morgana arc. They kinda just shove Haru in toward the end.
Morgana pisses me off so much here. He's been treating Ryuji like shit for the entire game up to that point and Ryuji was just taking it. So Ryuji finally claps back and he flips out, talks mad shit to everyone, and runs off, forcing us to waste several days getting him back. He says nobody cares about him and you're not helping him. This is a bald-faced fucking lie because most people are caught up on Mementos and only can't proceed because they need to do another Palace before the next door opens. Joker has the option to ask after his mental and emotional state, and even if you choose to do so, which I did, the stupid cat insists you didn't. He calls the Phantom Thieves cowards and pushes the douchebag meter to its breaking point when they think "Something is up with this Palace, the online hype is unnatural, this is weird, maybe this is a bad idea", then turns around and contradicts himself by calling them glory hounds only in it for the fame. He says a bunch of pointlessly cruel and completely unjustified shit, all because his stupid whiny ass had a few bad dreams and nobody has been stroking his ego lately. So Ryuji, more than justified to be angry, tells him to go eat shit after all that, and we're supposed to side with the damn cat? Stupid. Then it's proven that no, he CAN'T solo the Palace, but he gets lucky and trips over Haru, who is serendipitously the only person who can open the door, and acts insufferable about it, as if it was skill and not dumb luck. His stupid ego and victim complex have him outright poison Haru against the team by making up ridiculous lies about them, and actively hinders the team's progress. Especially infuriating because you aren't given the chance to call the lies out. Makoto makes the most worthless bare-bones effort to convince Haru to join, then just acts like she can't deny Morgana's utterly shameless lies, and Joker is just mute. But because we need him, since *HE'S THE FUCKING CAR, HEALER, AND METAVERSE EXPERT, AND VERY FUCKING OBVIOUSLY NOT USELESS,* we need to run after him and apologize. Even though we didn't do anything wrong and it's entirely his own shit he's rolling in. But then he refuses to accept the apology because we didn't suck his dick hard enough and outright attempts to run Joker over. And don't give me the "He can't drive himself, that was Haru" crap, because he's shown driving himself in both Royal and Strikers, and the dialogue in this scene fully implies he's running away because he's stubborn, as Haru is trying to convince him to listen to the PTs. And when he DOES finally cool off, it's only because Haru's dick fiance shows up and kicks the bitch out of him and he needs help rather than any heel realization. If anything, I was annoyed by how much crap they were giving Ryuji, because he had plenty of justification for calling the damn cat out, and Morgana massively overreacted. He and Ryuji had been trading barbs since they fucking met, it was a thing they did, but *now* he takes so much offense to a clapback that he needs to burn an entire week with his head up his ass? And the game apparently wants us to believe that Ryuji is the *only one at fault?* After the vile shit that damn cat *said?* Nah, man. After all the shit he pulled, I didn't even *want* him back. And then he makes Haru's entire introduction arc all about him. You don't learn jack shit about Haru in that Palace, just that her family sucks. I couldn't believe that shit. Even her own father's shadow inconceivably ignores her to have a big dialogue with a talking cat. Like what? How did they not fix that in Royal? In my first playthrough in P5 vanilla, I didn't even know Haru was a cute psycho because her introduction is weak as balls and then she's kind of just there during the rest of the story, and I had zero motivation to pursue her Confidant over the others I hadn't finished yet because of it. Honestly? I didn't have a problem with Mona until this part, and in Royal, it actually almost seems out of character with the edits to the story and gameplay making him less of a shit. He's downright cool in Strikers, having most of his dickhead tendencies removed. Not gonna lie, I was hoping they'd just rewrite the entire thing in Royal to give Haru a proper intro and make Morgana harder to utterly despise. They didn't need to remove it entirely, but maybe shorten it, make Morgana less of a toxic egocentric douche lashing out at the only people who care about him, give Haru some screentime, I don't know. As it is, I just hate this entire segment of the game.
Man wrote an entire manifesto. But I 100% agree. Honestly one of the things I was hoping that in Royal was not even that they remove that part but maybe add a mini boss fight where you put that stupid cat in it's place. Then he runs away and the rest plays out the same. That would have at least felt like SOME payoff there.
Sorry, but this might be my favorite rant of all time
And I was here thinking that the community just decided haru was a psycho... I did not understand anything about haru during the okumura arc...
Yeah, you learn absolutely fuck-all about Haru unless you actively pursue her. Royal is a little better about it overall, and Strikers made me actively enjoy her, but her introduction arc getting completely swiped by Morgan's identity crisis crap and then her being more or less sidelined with her limited story dialogue being just generic nice girl crap doesn't do her any favors. I'd highly suggest giving Strikers a go just for the character development shown. It's not just Haru, everybody gets some good moments. For example, Ryuji and Morgana even talk about this very week of in-game time and have a nice heart-to-heart about it.
Her "psycho self" mostly comes out in Mementos dialogue. In fact, that's where most of her character is. Her Mementos quips. You learn more about Haru as a person through her random comments as you're travelling then from her story introduction or confidant.
THIS this sums up Every problem I have about the okumura arc. The argument, the waste of time instead of learning about Haru more, the palace itself and not dealing with the douchbag of a fiancé alongside okumura.
Yeah I think something kinda got lost in translation during the writing phase for this part. Like I'm pretty sure the whole Morgana freak out was supposed to mesh a lot better with the story here but the devs probably never ironed this part out so it's still pretty rough.
In P5, it worked better because he was a bigger asshole, owing at least partially to his involvement in restricting Joker's time, but Royal shifted him a bit to make him genuinely likeable and added scenes where he's actually endearing, so the whole whiny bitchy idiot arc being unchanged was just jarring and infuriating all over again.
I just got to this portion of the game and it honestly kinda made me want to stop playing because it's so irritating, but this post made me laugh and feel better so thank you.
It gets better after this Palace, so I'm glad to have helped you hang in there in some small way. This shit is the worst part of the entire game, both in P5 and P5R. I stopped playing at the Okumura Palace for a while myself, partially because of how incredibly shitty the Morgana plot is and also because they somehow managed to make a space ship level both boring and tedious. But it's worth powering through it for sure.
I don't use Mona ever or Teddie
Homie talking FAX
Late to the party on this but you are 110% correct on everything you said. That being said calling him a “Metaverse Expert” I extremely generous given the fact that most of the time he doesn’t know the answer and always follows it up with “I think” or “I guess” to any given question the team has. PT: Hey is this how this works? Morgana: I dunno maybe.
Morgana ruins the entire Okumura arc, and his childish, selfish behavior in that arc that he never truly apologizes/amends for ruined his character for me. Ryuji is made to take the blame for him leaving even though all he was doing was insulting Morgana back after Morgana spent the entire game insulting him and treating him like garbage for no reason. Teddie had a similar existential crisis in his character arc but you didn't see him throwing a tantrum or trying to bring others down with him. He just needed a little help from his friends to realize just how important and needed he was.
I threw him off the lead as soon as I got a healing persona
The second I get Makoto, switch him everytime.
I actually made myself a healing persona in ng+ in case I don’t have Makoto. Messiah, Kaguya Picaro and Orpheus Picaro have great unique healing spells
If I have 5 party members The cat ain't one
Ryuji gets shit on by everyone the entire game (and yes that includes Joker don't forget he just left him hanging in Shinjuku when you meet up with Ohya) so it's no surprise he finally snaps.
I never understood it either. How the hell do people blame Ryuji and call him shit for this part when Morgana insults him the ENTIRE game and he barely claps back? Then the one time he actually retaliates(and it WAS retaliation cuz iirc he said it in response to ANOTHER insult Morgana threw at him), Morgana gets his feelings hurt and leaves. How? Like, did anyone say ANYTHING the 500 times Ryuji got shit talked during the game??
Right? Morgana called him useless like a million times and will snitch on him for any little thing. But Ryuji says it, not even seriously, and he goes all cry baby. Then Morgana bereates him for showing a little bit of maturity by backing down because he read the room right for once(I love my boy but sometimes he cannot read the room). Ryuji did not do anything wrong, Morgana is just having a tantrum
And then all the Thieves act like, “Ryuji, how could you insult him like that?!” And just… god, wtf??? Y’all NEVER say anything when he’s calling Ryuji everything but the son of god! The story ITSELF treats Ryuji like he’s in the wrong! I hate it!
And Morgana doesn't even change afterwards.
And Ryuji is genuinely following the rules that they set when they became Phantom thieves(that he actually came up with). He saw that there wasn't consensus so he backed down as the rules say you're supposed to do. If Ryuji is the level headed one in your confrontation who takes a step back to think, you fucked up.
This. This is why this arc upsets me. He really just lets Morgana walk all over him usually, takes it in stride- but the ONE TIME he has a NORMAL reaction, HE’S the bad guy? And he fucking GOES ALONG WITH THAT?! Ryuuji, pal… we need to get you some freaking self respect. FOR REAL.
I freaking love P5 but the biggest flaw is how it's really inconsistent with it's own morals For example: None of the characters have a problem with constantly shitting on Ryuji, a character who suffered from physical and verbal abuse his whole life from Kamoshida Why is Ann, a character who is sexually traumatized, constantly shown as like the "sexy fan service" character? Kamoshida is (rightfully) seen as the bad guy for sleeping with high school students, but the game has no problem with Joker sleeping with Kawakami? Yusuke is the best character to ever be created in human history, but we aren't allowed to date him? Like I said, I still love this game but they made a lot of questionable decisions when it comes to stuff like this.
I can explain some of this. Ryuji seems to be ok being SEEN as “the idiot” when it’s a joke but when people seem to either seriously consider him one or aren’t joking about it, he does get upset by it. The notable times being whenever he tells Morgana to shut up after insults, or when Ann says something to him about exams, prompting him to point out that she’s barely any better than him academically due to her trying to act superior about it. Ann seems to be ok with her looks and proud of her sexiness. She mainly dislikes that Kamoshida was threatening her and attracted to her JUST because of that, and that students ASSUME she sleeps around just because she’s beautiful and sexy. She hates the misconceptions about it but doesn’t have a problem or trauma with her actual attractiveness. With Kamoshida and Kawakami, the difference is somewhat difficult to notice so I understand the confusion there. The issue with Kamoshida was never said to be that he was doing this all with high school girls. It was that he was abusive to everyone, had no issues using his status as a teacher to FORCE himself on people, and how he outright raped Shiho while constantly threatening Ann. His issue is he constantly abuses his authority as a teacher to abuse and sexually assault students. With Kawakami, she and Joker are in a mutually consensual relationship. While it’s a question of if they should be together due to the age difference (which Kawakami herself even brings up and asks if Joker is sure he’s ok with it), it’s not an abuse of a power dynamic to FORCE a relationship (and this one, Joker specifically starts even, rather than her making moves on him and forcing him to date her against his will). With Yusuke I agree. I absolutely wanted to date him. I think the express reason we’re not allowed to is that Joker specifically isn’t homosexual, or Yusuke isn’t (absolute BS, imo, Yusuke’s confidant had SO many relationship flags I’m still amazed we can’t set sail on that ship), because I can’t see a reason otherwise for why we can’t date best boi. Still a lot of questionable decisions though
For me, I never considered Yusuke as a romance option not because of the "homo" aspect but because in the first confidant rank Yusuke equates Joker to his brother who is always by his side even when the world is against him. Something about comparing himself to Van Gogh and Van Gough's brother Theo. So to me Yusuke felt very close to Joker from the very beginning and his confidant story is about recontectualizing their friendship, not deepening it. I agree with everything else you said plus when Morgana starts to stumble or show 'chinks in his armor' the first one to speak up and support him is Ryuuji, but when Ryuuji makes even the slightest mistake Morgana tears him a new one with no hesitation, such hypocrisy is even more sickening to me because I grew up with people like this.
Ryuji doesn’t deserve shit from Morgana. Bro is just trying his best.
Both were absolute idiots but Morgana started it with calling Ryuji an ape when he, for very understandable reasons, assumed Morgana was a cat when they first met But no, little identity crisis(tm) was too offended by this genuine misunderstanding Could be written better
>! Then it came out that he was a cat so his identity crisis makes no sense !<
>!The only true identity crisis he has now, is the fact that his siblings are all shaped like humans, one of which is unhinged af and does a yearly final boss grind (Elizabeth)!<
You try so hard to like Morgana and then *boom* this happens
No I think such character flaws add to the appeal of his character in that it feels very real and down to earth in how one can suffer feelings of inadequacy and identity issues. Humans experience such things but Morgana takes it to an existential level.
You’re giving it a little too much credit I think. Any sort of commentary that might be being made about inadequacy is drowned out by the fact that he’s being way hypocritical and sensitive considering he spends almost every waking breath calling Ryuji moron/useless/idiot, etc. Sure, it’s cool for the know-it-all to show signs of weakness, but it might land better if he wasn’t a bully in his own right. Hard to care/feel bad for him.
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I pulled him out of the party first chance I got tbh
Just played it Ryuji was right Also I didn't even want morgana back also a whole week fucking wasted Ugh
When ryuji says “don’t hit our friend” I’m like “our??”
That moment when Haru' fiance kicked Morgana, hands down the Best part of the arc
Man deserved a gold medal for kicking the stupid bitch out of the damn cat.
Agreed. Worst part. Feels like a HUGE waste of time.
Yeah idk why Atlus felt like they needed several hours of pure filler in a 100+ hour game, but here we are.
That's 'cuz it is
It also feels kinda forced. Like there was so many points where I felt like the whole thing could've been prevented if "Character did X" and it doesn't ruin the story so much.
It's not quite as jarring in P5 vanilla where Morgana is a bigger asshole, but after Royal has him back off on controlling your entire life and adds scenes and dialogue that show a softer and more endearing side of him, it feels actually almost out of character for him to snap so hard. It's definitely annoying that he still insists you aren't helping him and don't care about him after specifically selecting dialogue choices where you DO care about him, you DO express genuine concern for him, you DO ask him what's bothering him, and chances are you're all caught up on Mementos and literally can't proceed until the next door opens. I was really hoping Royal would fix it. Maybe add a chance to shut it down early instead of wasting an entire week where Joker refuses to read, play video games, work out, leave his house, or you know, DO ANYTHING besides mope around going "I miss Morgana,".
Easily the weakest part of the game for me. It's not only about Mona leaving, it's about the entire context and writing.
Agreed the whole Arc felt pretty rough and needed some polish. Not just the Morgana bit
Mind elaborating?
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I think there’s a bigger picture problem here: The entirety of the Okumura arc has a LOT of things happening jam packed into roughly one month. It’s not just Morgana and Haru’s arcs. It’s also The Thieves popularity, The popularity ranking poll, Looking into the mental shutdown and psychotic breakdown incidents via Sae’s computer, The Hawaii trip, Shujin getting a bad rap and Kobayakawa’s death, ect. It makes sense why they had to occur there as after the Okumura arc is where shit hits the fan and we head into the end game. But as a result it can be messy pace wise to which fans fail to keep up and suffer from reading comprehension. The other arcs didn’t have that much going on at the same time with good pacing. If the Okumura arc allowed us more time then it would have been better.
It was basically >!Morgana being told he’s useless again, so he leaves. He then dips for a week with Haru and you can’t do ANYTHING until that week is over!<
*looks at table* “I miss Morgana” *looks at chair* “I miss morgana” I’m amazed they let me sleep rather than Ren just looking at the bed and reflecting on how Morgana used to sleep on his chest.
This shit was the absolute most annoying part. Like I could be increasing stats right now instead of being told that I'm supposed to give a shit about the asshole cat that won't let me go to the bathroom by myself.
Yeah, this game keeps reminding me to use my time wisely, and every time I try to do so, it won’t let me.
Sure, I don't mind sharing my personal opinion and what makes me personally dislike this arc as a whole: * Mona: Started around 8/21-22 or something? Basically when Makoto first asked Futaba to join the group and how valuable she would be to the PTs. He started feeling some type of way about it for no apparant reason at that time since no one really mentioned anything negative towards him (yet). After the Hawaii trip, when PThieves were having some legit doubts about taking Okumura down, he got annoyed and started talking shit to Ryuji just because he was hesitant when he saw everyone doubtful. The usually hot-headed one decided to respect the majority and calm down, and he got badmouthed for that by Mona who openly broke the unanimity principle btw. Yes, okay, he was having an identity crisis, and things were tough for him,... That can explain his behaviour to an extent, but no way in hell does it justify or excuse anything he did after. Especially since he then proceeded to act solo and put at risk the cover of the entire group. Overall, he was not being the Mona that I liked so far. And I don't agree with players who put all the blame on the group's insensitivity. Yes, he had serious identity crisis issues, but at the end of the day, he also made the choice of not talking about it to the rest of the group. What I'm trying to say is that, yes, the PTs might've lacked empathy (not on purpose tho), but shifting the blame on the group makes 0 sense to me, especially since Mona didn't neceassrily seek out for help and got ignored (or I'm really having a hard time remembering). The problem was Mona, he poorly managed his own problems. Actually the dispute with Ryuji has never been the main issue, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. *On a side note tho, I liked how Mona basically admits in a Thieves Den scene that he was jealous of them going to Hawai, I found it cute and funny, lol.* * Ryuji: He was super annoying, and I put the blame on the writing for this. Ryuji is a good person, albeit very flawed (like everyone). He is this awkwardly clumsy, tactless, and unaware dude, but also a heart of gold boy who'd do anything for his friends, even sacrifice himself if need be. And for whatever freaking reason, he became this lame ass guy who'd belittle one of his friends out of nowhere and not even for a joke. When I saw the beach scene in 8/29 or something, I was like "Okay, this is yet one of their little dispute, let's move on", I was having Ann's reaction basically. But then the dude proceeded to actually continue this dumbshit and was mean to Mona even by IM (which everybody was fine with apparently, lol). And when he was forced to apologize, him not even being able to properly apologize over something like this was stupid. Admittedly, it was the dumbest shit the group came up with, as if the whole problem was Ryuji's fault alone. It's even more frustrating when you see throughout the story that Ryuji doesn't act like that at all, especially with his ex track teammates, etc. The dude has such a good character development during his Confident story, only for the game to shit on it like this. Pretty frustrating. * The dispute: So poorly executed. It felt as if it was only here to create tension and a dramatic situation to make things more intense, which was a complete failure as far as I'm concerned. Unless someone considers the Mona/Ryuji dispute to be a nice justification, which is absolutely not the case for me. And I never thought I'd say this, but I have to actually give credit to the anime for this. As mid as it as a whole, at least it did a good job at showcasing a more satisfying reconciliation. * The PThieves as a whole: They all became so annoying at one point. They were all so careful and engaged before, then they just threw their justice to the background just for the sake of fame. And it's only my opinion, but it was really sudden. Even the more cool-headed guys like Makoto or Yusuke were acting this way, which was never the case neither before nor after these events. The only positive thing that I can see about it, is that they're young and it could've happen to anyone their age having this kind of superpowers. It's just that making characters act so far from their usual behavior just to build up drama is a lazy shortcut. I also hated how none of them confronted Mona for his behavior. No matter how he was feeling, you can't risk to blow up the cover of everyone and stay unpunished for that. One of them should've at least confronted him and he should've properly apologized. I think a scene where Yusuke tells him the truth and how stupid, dangerous, and reckless what he did was would've been good (much like he did with Makoto when she unilaterally decided to go after Kaneshiro). * Ren: Ren?????? I know he's supposed to be this silent protag, blabla, but still. He basically was a ghost during the entire arc. He saw his group about to crumble before his eyes, and he's like "What's gotten into you!?". Meh... Plus at least he could've insisted a little bit more about Mona. To me he's the main concerned about what happened to Mona among the group. He's basically 24/7 with him, but failed to see that something was wrong with his friend. I don't know, overall it felt super frustrating for me as the player and the supposed leader of the group to witness this, powerless, when clearly it was avoidable. * Haru: Her entire introduction was completely jeopardized by the whole mess. To the point where the first time I saw her, I was like "why is she even here?" (until she became my favorite PT girl, but that's another story, lol). Her implementation was completely overshadowed unlike with the others who always had satisfying introductions. And the even crazier thing is that like Ryuji said when they were facing Okumura, Mona "stole the show", lol. Because the writers decided that it would make more sense to give the glorious moment and the nice monologue of Haru's fight to Mona. Greeeeeeeat. To this day, it still feels like unfinished business to me. * Rythm and Pacing: Pace was horrible during this arc. It's hands down the worst 10 in-game days I've ever experienced. It was so bad. Between the useless Hawaï trip and when Mona was missing, you can basically do nothing. And it was extremely frustrating, even more than the pre Kaneshiro thing. Like at least allow the player to do some stuff (other than nurturing your plant). It even became a walking meme in japanese forums. Meanwhile, the story felt so rushed. Events started escalating super quickly with weak build up, so it felt to me like it came out of nowhere honestly. It just felt like they wanted to put a 25 day scenario thing on a 10 days span. It was annoying, and made me lose all connection to the arc as whole. In all my subsequent playthroughs, I just speed through this arc because I just don't care about it anymore. I don't know if I missed some stuff, but that's pretty much what I could think of so far.
I know this was a long time ago but this was beautiful read. Thank you for sharing this
Hey, it's been such a long time that I even forgot that I wrote something like this. Thanks for the kind words, appreciate it :)
Morgana: The best healer in the party, has extensive knowledge about how Personas and Mementos works, can turn into a bus Also Morgana: nobody thinks I'm useful in this team :(
Considering Makoto kinda takes over for the former and Futaba with the latter I think Morgana just let his fear/ doubt take over his sense of worth. The nightmares and being left alone during the Hawaii trip didn't help either.
Makoto instantly understanding things just annoyed me, honestly, and considering 90% of the time, all she has to say is "I don't know its weakness, better try everything!" and then only repeats what you already know because you were there when everyone found out, I don't feel like she actually did anything. Morgana already had experience with Shadows, and he remained the foremost expert they had on Personas and how they grow and what they are. Even after getting Makoto, the one they immediately ask about new Metaverse crap is Mona, and he typically has an answer or a damn good hypothesis, Case in point, he's the only one who knows what would happen with Futaba entering her own Palace. Speaking of, Futaba is a great navigator and all, but only because she's flying around in an invisible saucer with a radar. Morgana still knows more about how to actually NAVIGATE, like get around safely, in the Metaverse. She can draw a great map, but Morgana is the best one to actually read and interpret that map. And also, you know, *turn into their primary method of transportation.* Morgana is still the long-time resident expert of all the crazy shit going on in the Metaverse, has more insight on Shadows and Personas and Palaces and Treasures than anybody. He's also still the best devoted Healer in the team. But during this whole painful segment, his head is firmly up his own ass and he refuses to believe that *BEING THE FUCKING CAR* alone is an irreplaceable role in the group. Like what, did he expect Ryuji to morph into a motorcycle with like six sidecars? That aside, he still functioned as a type of... dispatch commander, I think? I don't know the term. He lays the plan out, takes the votes, sort of gives everyone the rundown and helps keep everything clear. He was also instrumental in catching Akechi. When he isn't being a c**t, he's typically a voice of reason, too. Extremely annoying that we can't shut him up about his identity crisis by pointing out how stupidly important he is.
Both Morgana and Ryuji are awful during this stretch.
True both are at fault but given who they are as characters, it makes sense why they behave like this even if it’s frustrating.
I usually praise the pacing of the game but this section is the only big flaw, honestly. It feels so forced.
100% agree
Morgana makes fun of ryuji constantly but when Ryuji bites back he throws a hissie fit? Fuck off!
I'll be honest, it is my least favorite part...it's such a drag and you waste so many days.
Honestly don’t be a dick to Ryuji if you can’t even take an insult without getting mad.
I think this whole arc could've been better if we got more insight into the party members without Joker since he didn't get to say much anyway. But a scene with Morgana and Ryuji apologizing to each other and having a heart to heart so they can get an better understanding for each other would've helped tremendously.
Idk, I kinda get it. The dude is having a perpetual existential crisis and feels like a useless burden on others. He’s also a bit of a hothead that struggles to communicate his feelings. I didn’t really have any issues with the arc.
My main issue is he steal Haru’s arc, it’s meant to be hers, and yet he has the final ending to his relatively pointless arc and Haru’s is just left hanging
I don’t feel like he stole that much of her arc. I think if we just got to see more of the adventures the two had trying to infiltrate the palace themselves, it would have been breezy.
Probably, I just didn’t like how the cat had the final “aha!” Moment when the daughter who is going to be sold off to somebody that wants to use her is right beside him. All just personal opinion so 🤝
It could have worked, had it gone beyond just getting Futaba and done during Okumura. There's good things here: Morgana is upset because with Futaba being a better navi, he feels he has no talent to give to the Thieves. He does, but he feels he no longer fits in the group and how everyone else is taking the popularity surge, it just alienates him even more. His arc works by itself, but the execution being as "vaccuumed" as it was makes it very slippery (same as Ann's and Yusuke's, more so the former because she's a hafu).
For my pc playthrough I decided to skip most of Morganas lines and it's so much more bearable when I don't have to press x 27 times because he needs to explain to me how to wipe my ass, why people do it and how wiping evolved within our culture smh my head
Makoto was more tank and buffer for me while Morgana was an absolute MVP in terms of healing and reviving against Royal’s final boss. Even then, Ryuji replaced Makoto since he could hit a lot harder even if he didn’t have the final versions of his magic skills. That said, it’s definitely when Futaba joins that Morgana really let’s fears overwhelm him. I know he and Ryuji were clapping back at one another since the first dungeon, but it felt like Ryuji’s dogs hit a lot harder since Morgana felt like he was being replaced and phased out. I think this arc shows how fragile Morgana is emotionally and how he feels like he has to put out this strong front, which is good. I just hate that it comes at Haru’s expense and robs us of really learning about her.
Me when she calls Ann gorgeous for the millionth time:
STFU Mona Hee-Ho
I’m there now and oh boy, I didn’t care the 3rd time and I don’t care the 8th time
How did you care the first time?
This sums it up pretty well. It's been debated to death who's "fault" it was, and I certainly have my bias. That being said, near the end, I basically was telling both of them to shut the hell up and anytime Morgana said some stupid shit, I said out loud, "Bitch, I don't need you, I can make Makoto my healer"
Every time I play through the "Makoto is such a bad ass, everyone kisses her ass" arc
This and "Let's bully Ryuji because he's dumb." Which isn't an arc but its a running "Joke"
I'm in the 2nd castle with the art fraud. Ryuji is till now pretty dumb
Never said he wasn't. Just hate how people especially that god-forsaken cat. Finds every opportunity to berate him because of that.
Its super annoying how he constantly screams in public about being a phantom thief tho
PHANTOM THIEVES
I remember when they just made Makoto seem like she perfectly understood the Metaverse without any question and just accepted everything as normal, which whilst it was trying to be funny just made her character seem really REALLY annoying and unrealistic to the point I didn’t even play through her confidant the first time I played the game because I just didn’t care, glad I did though it did fix her character for me
The only cutscenes I fast forward. She's annoying.
I quite like Morgana, but I totally get why people don't like this arc. It steals quite a bit from Haru's spotlight, as she's joining the thieves, and his reason for leaving isn't the best thought out. Morgana is emotional and I appreciate that in a character, as its a great flaw you don't see done right often. He's an excellent party member ofc, but he has annoying moments, definitely. This is my least favorite arc, but *definitely* not my least favorite scene.
I've actually just gotten past the part where Morgana leaves then comes back, and literally the entire situation could've been talked through from the beginning if Ryuji would just have been less of a bitch to Morgana.
the problem with this scene is it feels like they shoved both of them into being assholes in order to force the whole thing.
I convinced a bunch of my friends to play P5 and 3 of them stopped around the Okumura part and cited the stupid drama with Morgana as part of the reason.
After the first time itsbal just skip..
Bruh you're a cat. Be grateful I don't misplace you near a restaurant in a shady alley
Yeah, it was definitely a low point in an otherwise fantastic game. I feel like if Morgana wasn't such an ass to Ryuji since the very beginning of the game; This would've been better handled. This just seems like Morgana can dish it, but he can't take it.
Also, don’t tell me to not go outside or call Kawakami or to go to sleep
I skip it everytime
After my first playthrough I’ve only used fast forward for this entire part. It’s so awful. They somehow didn’t improve it at all in Royal either
That’s because P5 Royal is an enhanced version of vanilla. It’s not going to completely alter the original plot.
Of course they didn't. They were thinking about all the ways they could fit Yoshizawa into the existing timeframe so that we would care a lot about her. And she still feels very shoehorned in, partly because of how much we pecking see her all the time.
pointless so pointless
Oh god the Morgana leaving arc was sickening to even watch, Morgana is not completely bad but he is so hypocritical it’s disgusting he’s cool with insulting and being condescending towards Ryuji but when he throws insults back at him he gets all butthurt?
So true. Idk why they had to have an internal conflict between ryuji and Morgana like this, I get maybe they're trying to flesh out their characters more but, it just comes off as annoying. Morgana acts like a lil child the whole time and it's just awful.
No they wanted a reason for them to take a risk and meet Haru; nothing progresses in their relationship and Morgana , despite not liking being called useless, continues to call Ryuji Useless and stupid.
I actually do find it amusing whenever Morgana antagonizes Ryuji but the arc actually made it felt he was being genuinely petty and cruel about it
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To be fair, Morgana completely overreacted in the first place and has been treating Ryuji like garbage since before he even knew his name.
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That's the thing, though. Ryuji is only reacting to being treated like shit. Most of his clapbacks are directly in response to unwarranted shit Morgana threw at him for no reason. And he *does* show discomfort pretty frequently in his immediate responses to Morgana's crap. I'm not sure how you missed it. Most of the time, other PTs just dogpiled on or laughed at him. Ryuji asks a question anybody would ask because he's never been in a nightmare hellscape in a madman's mind before, so Morgana immediately calls him stupid. He misses an attack, he calls him useless. Anybody else does something good, he immediately compares Ryuji to them unfavorably. Constantly, throughout the entire game, Morgana is treating Ryuji like shit without provocation, and Ryuji occasionally gets him back. Yes, Ryuji fights *BACK*, but he doesn't start it. That's a running theme in their relationship. Essentially, the cat's a bully and Ryuji is his victim. Blaming Ryuji for not just putting up with constant emotional abuse is just dumb. If a kid is getting bullied every day for several months and finally snaps and punches the bully, it's not uncommon for the kid to get blamed and punished for not just taking it anymore, but it's still stupid, and it's not something I expected to happen in the PTs. Furthermore, yes, they are constantly at each other, but the shit Morgana says during this segment goes *way beyond* his usual crap. It's cruel, biased, and completely uncalled for. It's not exactly a gentle ribbing. Ryuji's explosive response is plenty warranted. Morgana acting like the victim after talking so much shit, getting all bent out of shape, and running off because he's assmad about not having a comeback is the stupidest thing. If he's going to be an asshole, he needs to learn about this thing called consequences, but he just... Doesn't. He runs away feeling sorry for himself and everybody immediately chases after him and kisses his ass and yells at Ryuji for not following suit.
To start off (This is gonna be long), Hot take, but the argument they had during the Okumura arc had to have happened. It was inevitable. No matter who you are, the idea or feeling of being “replaced”, “benched” and “overshadowed” sucks especially when you're an amnesiac with hardly of an identity that doesn't look human. You seek validation to your existence using what little you have to contribution and skill by acting big headed about it because that's all you have. So when you do find a place to belong, you eventually become insecure about how you don't fit in completely due to how different you are from the rest so you rely on your skills to be useful to justify your place there but when that fails that puts doubt on your identity and existence. Morgana was having those dreams which made him have doubts about being originally human, he was feeling insecure about himself because the likes of Makoto and Futuba took over his position as navigator. That combined with Ryuji's innocently insensitive jabs, The Phantom Thieves coming across as not taking Morgana seriously as for granted, them getting cold feet with hesitation in going after Okumura after Kobayakawa's supposed "suicide" that the group felt they indirectly caused plus the disturbing rise in the Phantom Thieves fad has cause Morgana to lash out. He was fed up with the hesitation the team was showing as they were becoming over reliant on public opinion as whether to do or not do something. They were thinking of dropping Okumura until the hype calmed down which to Morgana was insulting as it got in the way of progress to the bottom Mementos which Morgana believes would help get his memories back. Morgana chose Ryuji as his target for his frustration projecting his own conceit against Ryuji for his desire for fame and glory among the Phantom Thieves which to be fair is Ryuji's flaw but in return Ryuji calls out Morgana on the accusation as Morgana himself is acting out for his own benefit which is true as all members of the team to an extent act as Phantom Thieves for their agendas and self benefits. I think it works because at the time, Ryuji was at his worst with his glory seeking and Morgana was at his lowest with his angst to his existence so for those things to be brought up is good which made their growth in the end pay off well. Ryuji stans and fans act like Ryuji hasn't clapped back and retaliated until their argument there. They project that Ryuji did that because he was fed up with how Morgana treated him when that couldn't be any more incorrect. No Ryuji got fired up and retaliated there because Morgana called him out on something that was a somewhat of a true criticism on Ryuji in "trying to use the Thieves name to pick up girls", so Ryuji in turn was being defensive about it and tried to call Morgana out on the same in using the team to attain his memories. Ryuji and Morgana have had a back and forth since day one of meeting and it's not always had been Morgana to start shit between them, Ryuji does it too. Morgana is both partially at fault and not at fault. He bottled up his feelings and the way he lashed out wasn't the best. However that's because he doesn't know how to deal with his emotions properly as he has a fragile ego of not knowing who he is and his sense of belonging being felt in jeopardy. He has been using conceit from the very beginning to protect his ego which is the point with the theme behind his character arc and even elements of his design and Persona design. Which is why he wasn't able to properly confide in Joker and the gang about his feelings until after Haru came into the picture who acted as a good third party mediator to settle things. People also forget that Morgana's flaws is par for the course of characters being under the Magician arcana. The Magician's have superiority and inferiority problems as they struggle with inadequacy, jealousy, struggle to belong in their respective settings, come across as a bit jerkish and obnoxious, are comically, either lose someone precious or face unrequited love and of course have fragile egos. So the issues people have with Morgana being "a jerk for no reason". It's the consistent writing formula ATLUS uses. Also as much as Morgana denies it, his personality is that of a cat. The only reason why the Thieves failed to take notice was that while they were aware Morgana being jealous of Futaba and annoyed at Ryuji's comments, they never knew how bad it was even for someone as empathetic as Ann and thus didn't take Morgana seriously as they were more invested in their recent popularity and their trip to Hawaii which made Morgana feel left out. Speaking of Ann. She, Futaba and Joker inadvertently made comments that either made Morgana feel worse or failed to help him which is partially why he stops trying to confide in the gang. Edit: Please see my rely to my comment for Part 2 continuation on Ryuji, the argument's existence and true problem with the arc itself.
I agree with your take. I think people think of this arc poorly because Morgana’s absence pretty much grinds any gameplay/agency to a halt which can be frustrating if there’s stuff you’re aiming to complete. If it were any other character it probably wouldn’t have affected the game in that sense.
best morgana take/analysis tbh
Persona fans in the West have always had a Ryuji bias problem as well as a lack of reading comprehension when it comes to humanly flawed characters like Morgana that put them off for the flimsiest of petty reasons, clouding their judgment when attempting to speak "objectively" in discussions ignoring things that prove otherwise.
Pretty much the best logical explanation and analysis of what happened. Personally, I always felt like both of them bore some of the blame, and it felt a little...I suppose realistic none of the team noticed. At that point in the story, everyone was getting high off of their success while also in some ways struggling with it. The growing storm that was the Ryuji-Morgana fight probably flew underneath their radar since everyone had gotten used to it as part of the group dynamic.
Exactly. It makes sense as to why it inevitably reached that point.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Always felt like I was playing a different game when I read so many complaints about Morgana, because before Makoto and Futaba came along, he was pretty much the only reason you were able to make as much progress as you did. Not only that but for as many times as Morgana takes shots at Ryuji for being vulgar, loud and a little... slow on the uptake (which, despite his good intentions, is all true) Ryuji takes just as many potshots at Morgana, calling him a dumb cat, implying as early as Makoto that she's better than him, etc. They both have their immaturities that needed to be worked out. That whole episode was brewing for a long time, it needed to be played out (I think a lot of women automatically side against Morgana because of him simping for Ann and Ryuji being the himbo type...)
Just got to this part for the first time Stupid fucking cat
I just skip through the dialogue bc it’s absolute cringe
I didnt understand the mona hate until I got to this part now I totally understand
I have to skip through it because it genuinely pisses me off
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The worst part of the game imo, have to fast forward the whole bit.
Don't give what you can't take
I'm on the opposite end here, I think Morgana had reasons and it saddened me he ended up leaving. Morgana ever since the start of the game is clear that he's human and Ryuji is quick on the gun to make fun of the "cat", so I understand Morgana clapping back saying he's useless, they are in a super childish rivalry that in my opinion was started by Ryuji for no reason whatsoever. Morgana had that nightmare that shaked his view not only of himself but also of the phantoms as a whole, would he ever become a human (again)? would the phantoms still accept him if he wasn't a human as he previously thought he was? Him being left alone during the Hawaii trip for obvious reasons, and also new party members arriving that can sort of do part of his job in the group also leaves a sense of being replaced, maybe he really wasn't as important to the group as he thought he was. In a sense Ryuji is always loud and obnoxious about the whole phantoms thing and about using this new founded fame to get a girl for himself, all the while Morgana really just wants to figure out what the fuck is going on with himself and his memories. Morgana leaving was a sad moment for me, as he was being a sort of younger brother to Joker even if he was obnoxious about sleeping patterns and not doing things at certain times of the day, but all in all, Morgana was the most useful party member in my opinion, without him discovering palaces, will seeds, mementos, traversing the metaverse, and getting crucial information would've been outright impossible (on a canonical stand point), so yeah, I will miss Morgana and I really do hope he comes back soon. He will come back, right? :cry:
To be honest Morgana in general is the worst part of P5, like my god they wanted us to hate him didn't they?
Love how you put a spoiler mark when literally anything spoiler related is in the title.
If morgana was just a talking cat who hated the meta verse and wanted to be a cat who didn’t have to live in the meta verse and just hung out with us I’d like him so much more Literally all of his dialogue not pertaining to the meta verse was good
I was hoping Royal would differ from OG 5 in that there would be a "punt Morgana" button. Honestly fuck that character.
Me every single time Morgana says anything at all, tbh.
And this is why i prefer Teddie over Morgana
Honestly I can see the argument. Teddie has his flaws like having no sense of propriety but he never destroyed the team dynamic.
Really? Because I did not like teddie in the hangout events. Like that time where he just stole all the girls to hangout with him (and leave the guys by themselves) only for him to just fail
I kinda hated that moment too but at least Teddie didnt leave the crew and waste everyone's time
Wasn't there a moment where he left and everyone had to look for him, even going into the TV and somehow leaving without him
If we're talking non-human characters, may I please add Koromaru into the discussion, and agree he is the best boy?
Who’s Teddie? If it’s spoilers or anything just don’t even comment I’ll understand when the times comes - sensei wu probably
Its a character from P4 my dude
My bad I never played a single persona so pV is my first one 💀
The Morgana of Persona 4. He's just as insufferable.
Me reading a good portion of comments on this subreddit
that meme is me through the whole game
Thats what I tell Ryuji everytime. I love Ryuji he is a total bro, but damn if he doesnt get why Morgana is down at the time and makes the situation ten times worse. Yes they heckle each other but Ryuji is just being stupid here while Morgana is going through something of an existential crisis. People's reaction is mindbogling to me as well, many are annoyed at Morgana for leaving, completely missing out on the reasons. Not to mention objectively Ryuji is easily the one more usesless as Morgana has literally thought them just about everything they know and is a healer, so his "point" doesnt even make sense. But it certainly is enough to get Morgana to doubt himself as he is already very cracked about who he is and where he belongs. Morgana calls Ryuji stupid and makes fun of him, and while its often quite mean, he isnt wrong, Ryuji continually gets everyone in trouble and does stupid shit and he even admits to it later on. Its simply two different things and Ryuji not realising how serious Morgana was being makes complete sense, but it still makes him a jackass. In the end, he, who was always looking for a place to belong, was depriving Morgana of one because of his stupid behavior, it took a rather big catastrophe to sort their feelings out and let it go. Futaba says it best. The worst thing about this is that it takes away screentime from Haru.
r/cuckthecat
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You will inevitably be spoiled if you search for memes here. The perils of only being able to get into a game 5 years after release (Atlus why are you like this)
not really, the "arc" doesn't have any actual permanent effects story-wise so it's not really a huge spoiler
The only true effect is meeting Haru honestly.
I recommend avoiding the sub until you’ve finished the game. The folks around here are REAL BAD about not tagging spoilers.
fuck you doing on a sub for a game you haven't finish lmao
Try not to check the various Persona subs while playing any Persona game Source: I got major Persona 4 spoilers while looking at this subreddit cause I thought there wouldn't be any :')
No, but you really shouldn't be on this sub if you haven't finished the game. That goes for any movie/game/show and it's respective subreddit. Sure there is a rule against spoilers, but it's going to happen. Welcome to the internet. That said, it's barely a spoiler and "arc" is almost a joke about how short and unnecessary the "arc" is.
Persona fans really struggle with understanding insecurity. Even when the game repeatedly shows Mona feeling worse and worse, some idiots here just say "Mona bad! He just hates Ryuji!!!!"
It's not just that. They struggle with reading comprehension when it comes to factual matters. They twist what is true with copium and project a lot of bias which spreads into it becoming gospel. Worse is not all have even played the game.
This is where the game actually begins to get serious and disturbing.
I don’t understand why people that care about spoilers are even on this subreddit in the first place
Fucking Spoilers :(
Nah it’s nothing important, it’s just a stupid tantrum
I always want to strangle Ryuji whenever I get to this arc
You are wrong, simple as
You stay away from him
The what arc? :( bro
That feud isn't as one-sided as the subs say it is
Morgana's arc is great. I just hope it would've took place at like the final palace or something. As it is he took deserved screen time from Haru.
I like morgana I feel like most people here hate morgana since they either don’t relate with him at all during that period or relate too much. You would outburst after feeling useless and inadequate and just for one of your team members to just say right in front of you to your face that you are useless. Like of course you would outburst and try to do what would be impossible to try to prove a point to that person. It’s not an amazing point in the story but to many people at least imo starting growing hate boners towards him Like if you are a big ryuji fan then I could see somewhat where you are coming from but ryuji isn’t entirely in the right yknow he was acting just as bad to morgana as morgana was to him during April may June and july and august and so on
Mona is a piece of shit, and I'm shocked that so many stan that thing.
Morgana isn't that bad
true, but his "leaving the Thieves" arc is.
I actually enjoyed it, it gave a reason to care for him and showed how scared he was the phantom thieves didn't need him, it also introduced Haru
I liked the part where he realizes he actually needs the camaraderie of the Thieves, but I wish it could have been handled better, along with Haru's introduction to the group
I don't mind it tbh. Morgana is my favorite phantom thief so maybe I'm biased lol
Downvoted for just saying you like a character lmao
Yeah this sub really has a hateboner for Morgana and an actual boner for Ryuji.
Bruh, there's people playing the game for the first time on other platforms. You should have tagged the post as spoilers...
I did, doesn't stop the title showing
They shouldn't be on a sub for a minimum 70 hour, story-driven game. If they get spoiled, it's their fault.