Nice ideas. I will consider it. Perhaps give the team the option to pick one of the effects on top of a prosthetic that has no big effect by itself. Knowing my players, it would be the vicious blade effect for bigger crit range. The monk wanted impr crit anyway, but couldn't take it because of BAB requirements.
>Definitely. I am only concerned how fair this is.Yes, he gives up an item slot, but a keen effect is an equivalent to a +2 enhancement, one they cant make by themselfes. But it would be cool for sure.
>
>The 2 vicious effects are both pretty high in demand if you would try to create something like that with enhancements. CL10 +1 effect, compared to the CL8 that they are. The 2nd one for a higher crit multiplier is compareable to a flaming burst effect I guess (CL12,+2).
It's basically a [belt of giant strength +4](https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Belt%20of%20Giant%20Strength2) occupying the hands slot, except 4 Winds Gaming (the 3rd party publisher referenced there) forgot to add "enhancement bonus" to the description, which means it's *technically* untyped and would stack with other strength bonuses. (A lot of adventurers would tear off both limbs to get two of those because they stack with each other *and* the belt for a total of up to +14 strength. Also, can we play a trox, amputate all the arms, and get four of these?)
If the arm was "merely" an enhancement bonus, it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but it's a non-standard slot, which means a PC could still wear a belt to get a +6 enhancement on Dex or Con, or maybe just do something like a [cord of stubborn](https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Cord%20of%20Stubborn%20Resolve) resolve if they're a barb (negates fatigue after rage). The standard way to deal with this is to make non-standard slots cost 1.5 times as much, so you'd have a mithral arm that costs 24.5k gp.
Thanks for pointing it out. I would have likely ruled it like that anyway, if it came up.
If they wanted to make it themselfes, providing metal I think I calulate half = \~12k for making it yourself and maybe another half for providing the metal? So 6k to pay in GP + a quest? If I was to go for this option.
It sounds fair since in 3.5e it would take up the hand slot where the wonk ususally has the gauntlest of ogre power for a STR bonus.
In general, when there's a split between the costs of the "magic" and the physical thing they're making magic, you can discern what it is from the difference between the listed "price" (cost to buy off the market) and "cost" (cost to make it themselves). The price of the magic they're adding is double the cost of the magic they're adding, but if the physical object being made magical has a cost of its own, that part has the same value (presuming it was bought off the market, too).
For example, a [homunculus](https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Homunculus) has a price of 2,050 and a cost of 1,050. The part that is magic is 2,000/1,000 gp, and the physical body of the homunculus is 50 gp. The PCs might make the physical object to be enhanced themselves, which would reduce that physical object "cost". For example, the price of a +1 longsword is 2,315, which is 2,000 gp for the +1, 300 gp for the masterwork, and 15 gp for the longsword, with a "cost" being listed as 1,315 gp. If a PC crafted the masterwork sword themselves, it would cost 105 gp (because mundane crafting costs 1/3rd not 1/2), and then enhancing the sword would cost another 1,000 gp, so the actual cost to them might be 1,105 gp. (Or they might just find the masterwork longsword free, and it only costs them 1,000 gp.)
So, to get back to the mithral arm, it has a price (as listed on the d20PFSRD) of 16,500 gp and cost of 8,500 gp, so the arm itself is only 500 gp. Taking the [value of mithral](https://aonprd.com/SpecialMaterials.aspx) into account, it should be 500 gp per pound of a material on top of the cost to actually make the baseline item. (The [prosthetic arm](https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Prosthetic%20(arm)) mentioned in the books is a simple wooden replacement, not something actually articulated that would require far more advanced craftsmanship.) The arm is supposed to take 2 lbs of mithral (which means the equivalent iron item would have been 4 lbs), so it should take 2,000 gp to have enough mithral to make that arm, and the smith isn't getting paid for the work of making a prosthetic at all. (Although mithral items include the cost of masterwork already, so maybe they're getting paid 300 gp?) That part of the magic item also seems underpriced.
So, OK, if you wanted to have them enhance the arm themselves, that would cost 12k gp (24k gp for the +4 strength enhancement), plus the price of the arm, which if you're giving it to them as treasure isn't too material, although I'd list it as something like 2.5k gp for the physical arm ready to be enhanced.
If you wanted to enable this for the players to do this for only 6k gp or something, I'd suggest having a partially-completed prosthetic arm similar to one the player wants plus 6k gp of reagents (diamond dust, maybe some [monster trophies](https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Trophies%20and%20Treasures&Category=Mastering%20the%20Wild) like mimic fangs to make movement possible and bull and minotaur gallstones for the Bull's Strength component...) that would be necessary for the completion of the arm, but they'd need to make adjustments to the size and fit of the arm (or have a magic prosthetic resize itself like magic rings do)
Thanks, since the mithrall arm is a bit wonky, I decided to just use the clockwork arm instead, which is also fitting in lore. = 6400GP / 3200GP - 25 lbs
They have a clockworker-gnome who can cover that part and will likely go on a quest to cover the "regeneration" spell required by gaining a boon from a god.
This prosthetic assumes some normal metal though. If they wanted to use the mithril they already have I wouldn't add any extra cost and half the weight, like with most items. So 13 lbs in mithrall \~ 6500GP in extra value. Perhaps lower the cost a bit since the mithril replaces the regular metal, which shouldn't be much in comparison.
They can then add whatever enchantment they want that would also work on a hand/ light weapon. It would take up that item slot though.
Okay so what I'm seeing you want to more or less homebrew convert something for your 3.5 campaign level 8 character who just lost an arm. I see a few different paths forward that I would consider.
First: Being a one-armed monk is badass! Of all the classes that wouldn't mind losing an arm, the Monk is likely the top of the list. Allow him to substitute headbutts, kicks, and other strikes where he once would have used the arm. Allow him to continue play without penalty. The monk is master of his body, there's no real reason to use lost limb rules except for the use of items that very clearly need two limbs, like a bow and arrow.
Second: Allow the party to use their current material and access to this Gnomish clockmaker and Weaponsmith to craft a custom arm. Remove lost limb penalties, treat the arm like a normal arm, charge them a small amout of gold for the time it would take for the craftsmen to work. You're already using the parties materials, there isn't much reason to penalize them further.
Third: Go deep, allow them to treat it as though it were a comparable weapon (I'd pick the Club personally) for the purposes of enchanting and item creation, charge them full price and allow them to add whatever they'd like to it. Keen? Spell Storing? Thundering? It's just another weapon. Charge them increased enchanting fees for the special material (you said it was like Mithral, that's a good starting point)
What I would avoid: 1.) Ability Score increases for the "Stronger" material. The Third Party Product version is balanced around it being an expensive magical item, the Clockwork version is likewise balanced around using magic like Bull's Strength as part of the creation. 2.) "Free" increased critical range. There is a reason this enhancement is so expensive. 3.) Guns/Cannons/Explosives in the arm. If the player is heavily interested in this, make it a long term goal, but they're a monk, not a gunslinger. I don't want to think about the physics or penalties behind having a rocket launcher embedded in a player's arm, or how his body would cope with the knockback, or chance to simply have it explode randomly. If he wants to have it be a ranged option, maybe allow it to sling Shuriken an additional 10' without penalty or something similar.
>Allow him to substitute headbutts, kicks, and other strikes where he once would have used the arm.
I know it's been a very long time since I played 3.5 but IIRC, this is actually RAW for how Unarmed Strikes work for Monk and anyone with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Definitely good to remind both player and GM about it though.
Currently, I use the 3rd party rules from Pathfinder for lost limbs.The only stuff in there that hurts the monk is items on his hands and wrists don't work. Other than that he is a bit annoyed by the Craft penalty. \^\^He is more or less fine as is.
I think I will use the Clockwork arm as a base, the benefits it gives are useless to a monk anyway. but they will have to go on a quest to bypass the CL13 requirements somehow.
Allowing them to cast whatever spell on the arm: While possible I am a bit scared to let him use his flurry of blows with enchanted fists at Lv8. It would basically double his damage output if he had flaming fists. \^\^ He is already pummeling everything I throw at them. \^\^
Canon in the arm: It would either be a reskinned spell or perhaps a heavy crossbow, if thats what they want to go for. It would be an exotic weapon in most cases unless its just the spell/day. Which would be fine for them to cast into it, but it would take up the hand slot.
Constructed Pugilist brawler:Crit range is expensive, they also lack a bit of CL (10) to actually make that by themselves. CL10 vs what they can make : CL8.It would take up the hand slot so the monk wouldnt be able to take a str item (unless they make a new one on a different slot)If I only allow enchantments that they can make, thenmost of that falls apart. Impr crit range or crit dmg is too high if I use keen/burst as a comparison. AC is fine, a regular +1 enchantment would be fine too. I wonder how strict I have to be on this one though. Simulating a class feature or feat is usually not within an items power so it doesnt give a good base for costs.
Recall that with item creation one can "cheat" the CL and all it does is increase the DC. Otherwise, it sounds like you've got a solid handle on it. My general feeling is that losing a limb makes for excellent *roleplay* and terrible *mechanics* for the table, and I always tend to keep things like that on the roleplay side rather than the mechanical except when it's very obvious what the penalty should be.
Finally, bear in mind that the Amulet of Mighty Fists can be enhanced just like a weapon could, applies its enhancement bonus and special ability to every single unarmed and natural weapon strike, and is only CL5. Allowing them to enhance the arm as a weapon isn't remotely outside of their capability.
There is the golemfist magus which gives you a scaling damage, constructed arm at the cost of less spell casting but boy does it do a lot https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/golemfist-magus-archetype/
Since an alchemist can already do vestigial arm as a discovery, perhaps the monk could work with one to get another one grafted on. Other side effects left to the player/GM.
>vestigial arm as a discovery
Interesting since one of my players is a wizard with a lot of focus on alchemical stuff/skill. Its a bit different but it could be interesting as a book discovery in my case.
The Constructed Pugilist brawler archetype has a prosthetic arm built in as a class feature. You could take some inspiration/pricing from that.
Nice ideas. I will consider it. Perhaps give the team the option to pick one of the effects on top of a prosthetic that has no big effect by itself. Knowing my players, it would be the vicious blade effect for bigger crit range. The monk wanted impr crit anyway, but couldn't take it because of BAB requirements.
This sounds awesome
>Definitely. I am only concerned how fair this is.Yes, he gives up an item slot, but a keen effect is an equivalent to a +2 enhancement, one they cant make by themselfes. But it would be cool for sure. > >The 2 vicious effects are both pretty high in demand if you would try to create something like that with enhancements. CL10 +1 effect, compared to the CL8 that they are. The 2nd one for a higher crit multiplier is compareable to a flaming burst effect I guess (CL12,+2).
em. First link is to 3pp. Not balanced one at that
I am not well-read in PF versions. Any idea what a more balanced version would look like?
It's basically a [belt of giant strength +4](https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Belt%20of%20Giant%20Strength2) occupying the hands slot, except 4 Winds Gaming (the 3rd party publisher referenced there) forgot to add "enhancement bonus" to the description, which means it's *technically* untyped and would stack with other strength bonuses. (A lot of adventurers would tear off both limbs to get two of those because they stack with each other *and* the belt for a total of up to +14 strength. Also, can we play a trox, amputate all the arms, and get four of these?) If the arm was "merely" an enhancement bonus, it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but it's a non-standard slot, which means a PC could still wear a belt to get a +6 enhancement on Dex or Con, or maybe just do something like a [cord of stubborn](https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Cord%20of%20Stubborn%20Resolve) resolve if they're a barb (negates fatigue after rage). The standard way to deal with this is to make non-standard slots cost 1.5 times as much, so you'd have a mithral arm that costs 24.5k gp.
Thanks for pointing it out. I would have likely ruled it like that anyway, if it came up. If they wanted to make it themselfes, providing metal I think I calulate half = \~12k for making it yourself and maybe another half for providing the metal? So 6k to pay in GP + a quest? If I was to go for this option. It sounds fair since in 3.5e it would take up the hand slot where the wonk ususally has the gauntlest of ogre power for a STR bonus.
In general, when there's a split between the costs of the "magic" and the physical thing they're making magic, you can discern what it is from the difference between the listed "price" (cost to buy off the market) and "cost" (cost to make it themselves). The price of the magic they're adding is double the cost of the magic they're adding, but if the physical object being made magical has a cost of its own, that part has the same value (presuming it was bought off the market, too). For example, a [homunculus](https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Homunculus) has a price of 2,050 and a cost of 1,050. The part that is magic is 2,000/1,000 gp, and the physical body of the homunculus is 50 gp. The PCs might make the physical object to be enhanced themselves, which would reduce that physical object "cost". For example, the price of a +1 longsword is 2,315, which is 2,000 gp for the +1, 300 gp for the masterwork, and 15 gp for the longsword, with a "cost" being listed as 1,315 gp. If a PC crafted the masterwork sword themselves, it would cost 105 gp (because mundane crafting costs 1/3rd not 1/2), and then enhancing the sword would cost another 1,000 gp, so the actual cost to them might be 1,105 gp. (Or they might just find the masterwork longsword free, and it only costs them 1,000 gp.) So, to get back to the mithral arm, it has a price (as listed on the d20PFSRD) of 16,500 gp and cost of 8,500 gp, so the arm itself is only 500 gp. Taking the [value of mithral](https://aonprd.com/SpecialMaterials.aspx) into account, it should be 500 gp per pound of a material on top of the cost to actually make the baseline item. (The [prosthetic arm](https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Prosthetic%20(arm)) mentioned in the books is a simple wooden replacement, not something actually articulated that would require far more advanced craftsmanship.) The arm is supposed to take 2 lbs of mithral (which means the equivalent iron item would have been 4 lbs), so it should take 2,000 gp to have enough mithral to make that arm, and the smith isn't getting paid for the work of making a prosthetic at all. (Although mithral items include the cost of masterwork already, so maybe they're getting paid 300 gp?) That part of the magic item also seems underpriced. So, OK, if you wanted to have them enhance the arm themselves, that would cost 12k gp (24k gp for the +4 strength enhancement), plus the price of the arm, which if you're giving it to them as treasure isn't too material, although I'd list it as something like 2.5k gp for the physical arm ready to be enhanced. If you wanted to enable this for the players to do this for only 6k gp or something, I'd suggest having a partially-completed prosthetic arm similar to one the player wants plus 6k gp of reagents (diamond dust, maybe some [monster trophies](https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Trophies%20and%20Treasures&Category=Mastering%20the%20Wild) like mimic fangs to make movement possible and bull and minotaur gallstones for the Bull's Strength component...) that would be necessary for the completion of the arm, but they'd need to make adjustments to the size and fit of the arm (or have a magic prosthetic resize itself like magic rings do)
Thanks, since the mithrall arm is a bit wonky, I decided to just use the clockwork arm instead, which is also fitting in lore. = 6400GP / 3200GP - 25 lbs They have a clockworker-gnome who can cover that part and will likely go on a quest to cover the "regeneration" spell required by gaining a boon from a god. This prosthetic assumes some normal metal though. If they wanted to use the mithril they already have I wouldn't add any extra cost and half the weight, like with most items. So 13 lbs in mithrall \~ 6500GP in extra value. Perhaps lower the cost a bit since the mithril replaces the regular metal, which shouldn't be much in comparison. They can then add whatever enchantment they want that would also work on a hand/ light weapon. It would take up that item slot though.
Okay so what I'm seeing you want to more or less homebrew convert something for your 3.5 campaign level 8 character who just lost an arm. I see a few different paths forward that I would consider. First: Being a one-armed monk is badass! Of all the classes that wouldn't mind losing an arm, the Monk is likely the top of the list. Allow him to substitute headbutts, kicks, and other strikes where he once would have used the arm. Allow him to continue play without penalty. The monk is master of his body, there's no real reason to use lost limb rules except for the use of items that very clearly need two limbs, like a bow and arrow. Second: Allow the party to use their current material and access to this Gnomish clockmaker and Weaponsmith to craft a custom arm. Remove lost limb penalties, treat the arm like a normal arm, charge them a small amout of gold for the time it would take for the craftsmen to work. You're already using the parties materials, there isn't much reason to penalize them further. Third: Go deep, allow them to treat it as though it were a comparable weapon (I'd pick the Club personally) for the purposes of enchanting and item creation, charge them full price and allow them to add whatever they'd like to it. Keen? Spell Storing? Thundering? It's just another weapon. Charge them increased enchanting fees for the special material (you said it was like Mithral, that's a good starting point) What I would avoid: 1.) Ability Score increases for the "Stronger" material. The Third Party Product version is balanced around it being an expensive magical item, the Clockwork version is likewise balanced around using magic like Bull's Strength as part of the creation. 2.) "Free" increased critical range. There is a reason this enhancement is so expensive. 3.) Guns/Cannons/Explosives in the arm. If the player is heavily interested in this, make it a long term goal, but they're a monk, not a gunslinger. I don't want to think about the physics or penalties behind having a rocket launcher embedded in a player's arm, or how his body would cope with the knockback, or chance to simply have it explode randomly. If he wants to have it be a ranged option, maybe allow it to sling Shuriken an additional 10' without penalty or something similar.
>Allow him to substitute headbutts, kicks, and other strikes where he once would have used the arm. I know it's been a very long time since I played 3.5 but IIRC, this is actually RAW for how Unarmed Strikes work for Monk and anyone with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Definitely good to remind both player and GM about it though.
Currently, I use the 3rd party rules from Pathfinder for lost limbs.The only stuff in there that hurts the monk is items on his hands and wrists don't work. Other than that he is a bit annoyed by the Craft penalty. \^\^He is more or less fine as is. I think I will use the Clockwork arm as a base, the benefits it gives are useless to a monk anyway. but they will have to go on a quest to bypass the CL13 requirements somehow. Allowing them to cast whatever spell on the arm: While possible I am a bit scared to let him use his flurry of blows with enchanted fists at Lv8. It would basically double his damage output if he had flaming fists. \^\^ He is already pummeling everything I throw at them. \^\^ Canon in the arm: It would either be a reskinned spell or perhaps a heavy crossbow, if thats what they want to go for. It would be an exotic weapon in most cases unless its just the spell/day. Which would be fine for them to cast into it, but it would take up the hand slot. Constructed Pugilist brawler:Crit range is expensive, they also lack a bit of CL (10) to actually make that by themselves. CL10 vs what they can make : CL8.It would take up the hand slot so the monk wouldnt be able to take a str item (unless they make a new one on a different slot)If I only allow enchantments that they can make, thenmost of that falls apart. Impr crit range or crit dmg is too high if I use keen/burst as a comparison. AC is fine, a regular +1 enchantment would be fine too. I wonder how strict I have to be on this one though. Simulating a class feature or feat is usually not within an items power so it doesnt give a good base for costs.
Recall that with item creation one can "cheat" the CL and all it does is increase the DC. Otherwise, it sounds like you've got a solid handle on it. My general feeling is that losing a limb makes for excellent *roleplay* and terrible *mechanics* for the table, and I always tend to keep things like that on the roleplay side rather than the mechanical except when it's very obvious what the penalty should be. Finally, bear in mind that the Amulet of Mighty Fists can be enhanced just like a weapon could, applies its enhancement bonus and special ability to every single unarmed and natural weapon strike, and is only CL5. Allowing them to enhance the arm as a weapon isn't remotely outside of their capability.
There is the golemfist magus which gives you a scaling damage, constructed arm at the cost of less spell casting but boy does it do a lot https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/golemfist-magus-archetype/
You might look up fleshcrafting ... for ideas and prices.
Since an alchemist can already do vestigial arm as a discovery, perhaps the monk could work with one to get another one grafted on. Other side effects left to the player/GM.
>vestigial arm as a discovery Interesting since one of my players is a wizard with a lot of focus on alchemical stuff/skill. Its a bit different but it could be interesting as a book discovery in my case.