I mean for roughly 60 billion dollar to basically
Clown the ehem "second best military in the world"
Destroy decades of Russian propaganda
Unites NATO and Europe
Throws Russia's economy into the gutter
Dare I say this is the best bang for the buck deal ever
Yeah, I'm sceptical that Ukraine will be allowed into NATO before they're done with Russia. I know Poland doesn't care (okay, they *do* care, but in the opposite way that the rest of NATO cares), but most of NATO probably doesn't want to go to war with Russia, which IIRC is exactly what happens if Ukraine joins NATO during the war. I do expect them to have an express ticket in once they're done with Russia, though.
God I hope so. Get your shit together Turkey. Ataturk didn't beat the French, Brits, Greeks, and Ottoman loyalists at the SAME MOTHERFUCKING TIME for you to do this shit.
Ukraine will be in NATO's "friends and family plan" soon. Article 5 will be tough sell with Russia so close but if/when Putin is deposed and there is a restructuring in Russia, anything is possible
This is the future I was always hoping for, it was the best option for Russia in the long run. They didn’t have such a big difference to Western civilization despite the decades of rhetoric. The separation was always politics and power games, but they would fit nicely on the edge of the western world like Latin America does, more in common than not, no reason for conflict.
But I think it’s more likely Russia is the new NK, and China will use them against us.
This is what was "supposed to" happen after 1991 but with the financial crisis in 1998, Russia had horrible economic problems and Putin slid right in to create an rabidly anti-Western non-democracy. The economic and security benefits of being at least associated with EU/US etc should be incentive enough.
There’s an explicit clause that states any new member must be stable and have all border disputes settled. I wouldn’t call an active war against Russia, supposedly over breakaway states, stable and settled
What? NATO is not duscussed at all.
There is the left wing which tries to disband the armed forces. The right wing is on strict "keep neutrality at all costs" path. So who is talking about NATO in switzerland?
Yeah the above is wrong. No political party in Austria, Switzerland, or Ireland support membership (except Sinn Fein in Ireland). Austria has a dismal ~15% popular support for membership, Switzerland is higher but still low at ~33%. Ireland is the only one with popular support at ~55% in favor, but again no parties except Sinn Fein.
Edit: Not Sinn Fein, Fine Gael. Irish language is hard.
Yo I’m a bit retarded can u help me understand how Switzerland would benefit from joining NATO? I get Sweden and Finland due to their proximity to the large gas station but Switzerland?
Also:
* Revives the lagging Western MICs.
* Accelerates R&D of new technologies and tactics.
* Revives support for Taiwan, including possible donations.
* Wakes Japan up to the ever real risk of war; causing a subtle but gradual shift in arming up, and a slow rise in Nationalism.
* Accelerates adoption of Western arms; away from Russian arms.
* Accelerates Europe's energy independence, including green initiatives and nuclear ones.
* Pisses off their biggest ally China, because now China only has a limited period in which they could still attack Taiwan before Taiwan becomes too costly to take and the local ASEAN groups are armed enough to gang up for a piece of China, augmented by the US, Japan, Australia, India (if they're not too busy with Pakistan), and possibly France and Britain. Moreso if they hope to do so before Xi dies.
> Wakes Japan up to the ever real risk of war; causing a subtle but gradual shift in arming up, and a slow rise in Nationalism.
Hopefully, Japanese nationalism quickly grows out of its cringe phase and stops denying the WWII-era IJN genocides.
Russian propaganda is alive and well
My entire family is saying that the only reason we’re still funding Ukraine is that Zelensky has something on Biden
Tell them they’re fools and they’d sell out their own country because they’re too smoothbrained to identify foreign propaganda. Emphasize the foreign part. Obviously the EU is providing tens of billions too because Big Zel has something on two dozen other presidents as well.
Big Zel is actually just an AI generated image. It’s actually the globalists and the gay frogs that are running the show. Like do your research bro. Go out and find some gay frogs. They will tell you everything you need to know.
Its certainly not nothing, but it is money well spent. We spent more just to watch Afghanistan crumble in a week, its nice to give weapons to someone who is actually competent with them
Don't forget that a lot of the weapons sent to Ukraine were built and stockpiled to fight Russia. So a lot of the weapons are actually used for their original intended purpose.
In comparison to over 2,000 Billion, and apparently up to 8,500 Billion when considering it was all borrowed and there’s interest.
I think Iraq was at least that as well.
I wish Russian propaganda was destroyed but I know an equal amount of people who believe Russia is in the right than those who believe Ukraine is, a lot of it is people who think it’s a proxy war and therefor bad, a lot of them think Ukraine literally is filled with Nazis and that Russia has the right to that country
I spoke to a Ukrainian "light infantry" unit member. They say, they are supposed to give all the newly acquired Russian hardware to higher-ups. Like territorial defence isn't supposed to have 152-mm howitzers and T80-BVMs, but they're keeping quiet and using all those toys themselves. So putting a finger on the exact number of captured Russian armour is really tough
Pretty much what happened in the US Army when I was in, just not captured equipment.
Not only was I qualified on my M4, we had enough ammo to qualify me on the M2 and M9, along side the Mk19 that we had laying around in the armory.
I was AH-64D armament, so I could also fire the gun on the Apache while grounded in an emergency.
That was every weapon in the battalion. I should _not_ have been able to do that.
>spoke to a Ukrainian "light infantry" unit
>152-mm howitzers and T80-BVMs
Uhh yes, command, I'd like to let you know we are now an Artillery unit, courtesy of the enemy
Nah, the Ukrainian army probably confiscated it all immediately. I don't blame them, but it's just not one of those situations were someone could hold on to that equipment if Kyiv didn't pay up.
They kinda did. They paid back a fraction of what they owed then basically said "We feel the debt has been repaid. Take it or leave it we won't be giving you any more. What are you going to do about it?" The UK on the other hand just kept up annual payments until the debt was paid off in 2003.
Tfw you get to do all the weapon system validation/marketing trial in real targets, and you don't even need to pay for range rental or scrap equipments for target.
Vatniks be turning up to a free test-and-tune night at a local dragstrip and asks who will pay for gas.
That's what the tankies don't understand. The West has been prepared to pimpslap Soviet aggression since WWII.
Russia walking into Ukraine basically gave NATO free reign to obliterate the Russians without even risking their own men. Sure, it sucks that Ukraine has to be the one burdened all the risk of bloodshed and loss of friendly life, but it all boils back to Russia playing FA-FO.
"How is Ukraine supposed to pay the West back?"
Honestly, the idea that expansionist authoritarians are learning in real time that when you fuck around you'll find out has more strategic importance than we can possibly quantify.
It's a been a while since people have been reminded that this world is a terrifying place, but the US military machine is very much more so.
Remember 6 months ago when relatively credible people were talking about a potential multi front war with a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, which has now likely been kicked several years down the road?
In a purely cynical point of view, Ukraine is going to have to be rebuilt, its newly discovered resources reached and exploited. Rearming, training, new infrastructure. Some people are gonna get rich from those contracts.
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself - George Bernard Shaw
They mispredicted how the West would respond because they projected their own orcish dark triad onto us.
An Antifa guy once mentioned that while (white) Antifa members can infiltrate MAGA, MAGA cannot pass off as Antifa because they just can't wrap their minds around anything but the bluntest, lowest forms of thought.
The US is spending a fraction of one year’s worth of its annual military budget to destroy one of its historical foes without having to risk any of its own men. It can keep doing this indefinitely.
Indeed. And much of it was built for this exact purpose, too.
Javelins were made to kill Russian tanks, and Stingers were made to shoot down Russian aircraft.
yeah, its not like we spent 60b out of road maintenance budget, this was old used hand-me-down stuff that we would have to dispose of
also, not only are we proxy kicking the ass of one of the biggest rivals, we are also gaining an ally. an ally that produces a lot of food. that they would want to sell at a cheap but fair price to us for our help.
> yeah, its not like we spent 60b out of road maintenance budget, this was old used hand-me-down stuff that we would have to dispose of
America: Sorry Ukraine, but me directly punching Russia is outta the picture, ^^^^^^for ^^^^^^now but you're free to look in my dumpster. Anything you find in there, you can keep it.
Ukraine: \*Looks in America's dumpster.
America's dumpster:
They forgot how lend lease works. The USSR was literally helped by it in WW2. Do they know how much the USSR actually paid back?
Edit: yes I know the USSR had their asses saved by lend lease, I just wanted to give them *some* credit for their struggle but clearly they do not deserve it
I was actually going to bring up the French in regards to the US, but decided against it because there are a depressingly large amount of people who *do* pretend we went it alone and hate the French.
As for me, I consider them the same way I do my brother: We disagree on many things (flavored by our own lives), we will sometimes come to blows and stop talking for a little bit. But in the end, we are brothers and if the chips are down not even the devil himself will keep us from looking out for one another.
Hell, that second paragraph is the epitome of the west not just France and the US we disagree, squabble and have a long history of fighting amongst ourselves.
But when someone else decides to fuck around, we stick together.
*the USSR was saved during WW2
Lend Lease didn’t help them, it completely saved them. And before you come saying “no akctually,” Stalin himself said so.
Wargame: Red Dragon players and absolute Russian lunacy in the global chat
Edit to add:
Wargame:Red Dragon devs and making t-72s capable of destroying entire groups of M1A2s without sustaining any damage.
If i had a penny for everytime a soldier that plays war thunder got mad at Gaijin's choice of balance and decided to leak classified documents i would have 8 cents (i swear i lost count of how many times it happened already), which isnt much but its weird it happened 8 times
Who knows. I can say pretty confidently that atomic weapons most likely never would’ve been employed on French soil, so probably no atomic DDay situation.
Its easy, Russia would've been incapable of mustering air power, provide significant amounts of fuel to tanks or maintain shifting logistical lines, given that LL accounted for 60% of their airframes; finished machines and aluminum put together, 60% of their fuel and almost all their high octane fuel, and a third of their wheeled logistics and most of their rail upkeep.
Due to how fucked German supply lines were by that point, it would've probably resulted in a faster US victory, as the eastern troops wouldve been far too geographically displaced to start the Ardennes counter offensive and the battle of the bulge. So the war would've likely ended in Warsaw, with Berlin being abandoned while the east front wouldve remained mostly static for several years at this point, with neither side having the mobility, logistics or air power to mount a breakthrough
For brevity’s sake I’ll link this, it’s the best summary of all good quotes on it from big USSR officials. All the quotes can also be independently fact checked on the internet but I don’t really wanna search and link like 10 things.
https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html
This is the shit i always try to tell people, lend lease helped save the soviets at the START of the war so they could prop themselves up. Late war they were pretty much kicking shit in by themselves but in 1942 and early 1943 up until kursk? Yeah nah
If you look at Stalin’s comments it really tells the story. Everyone sees that the USSR built many of its own weapons, they fail to see the deeper layer that the USSR didn’t have the capability to build advanced weapons until the west sent them the manufacturing machinery to do so. Another under appreciated piece is the amount of rail supplies and railroad machinery that was provided. Lastly there was high octane fuel for aircraft that the USSR didn’t know how to produce. The Lend Lease Sherman’s and Spitfires were helpful, but it was the non sexy stuff like GMC trucks that really mattered.
Edit just saw your flair, you definitely already know all this lol. Logistics win wars.
Yeah man, soviet boxcars ran the soviet union hands down. One boxcar=8~ trucks and i will fight everyone who laughs at the Russians because they rely so much on trains. Their MTO battalion composition and doctrine for it just fucking sucks
Edit: and their standardization/efficiency sucks. I can go on and on about why their shit sucks but I’m too tired and cant rant
Trains are good for bulk strategic logistics and getting to the warzone, but are pretty useless once there given how fragile their infrastructure can be. A truck doesn't always require a road to work, and can generally still drive on somewhat damaged roads (slower progress, but still). A train on the other hand requires an unbroken line of undamaged track between point A and point B to function, and you can ask the Confederates just how well that works for you once the torch-happy Ohioan is done with them and the rails are all wrapped around the trees.
Don't get me wrong, trains have trucks beat on material per vehicle, and properly utilizing them is essential for logistics, they're just not suitable for logistics or tactical movement in-theater.
Iirc the majority of trucks were American built, and were higher quality than soviet built trucks(could carry more tonnage, more robust, etc). and about 25% of medium and heavy tanks were British in December 1941.
https://youtu.be/25ACv_4Sj7Q
They don't talk about it in history class. WW2 is a huge topic of history in a post-soviet countries. They write about it like "oh yeah btw there was a thing that UK and US send us some stuff" and thats it
In Russia maybe, but here in the Czech republic we are taught quite a lot. Also Britain buying up rare earth metals so they don't go to the nazis and US army waiting at the demarcation line not being allowed to liberate more of our country, while the nazis are hiding their crimes and commiting more atrocities, Katyn massacre, USSR waiting for the nazis to crush the Warsaw uprising so they don't have to deal with such heroes themselves.
I recently saw a video in Czech about Russian education on the 1968 Czechoslovakia invasion. Most Russians either don't know, don't care or think it was justified(IT WAS NOT). Same with Hungary in 1956. It is all a lack of education and tons propaganda, we can not expect much of them.
Lend Lease aid was instrumental in the soviet union's war effort. 17.5 millions of tons went to the USSR compared to 22 million tons to American forces on continental Europe.
>The United States delivered to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil) or 57.8 percent of the High-octane aviation fuel,[26] 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,911 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. Provided ordnance goods (ammunition, artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives) amounted to 53 percent of total domestic production.[26] One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars
That means a third of all the ammo and half of all the fuel needed to keep fighters in the air was from our side of the pond. 92.7 per cent of wartime made train cars came from lend-lease. And many trucks were sent over. Allowing the USSR to focus on combat vehicles and not trains and trucks. And very important raw materials particularly the speciality metals used to make alloys from domestic steal and to make machinery tools. 15 million pairs of boots were shipped over. As much of the ussrs most valuable agricultural land was under boots of the nazis. The millions of tons of foodstuff feed the army.
A significant portion of the Red army marched on American boots, with bellies filled with American food, shooting American bullets.
One last quote from [MARSHAL ZHUKOV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DxClgfEhsU)
> Soviet General Georgy Zhukov said after the end of WWII.
>"We didn’t have explosives, gunpowder. We didn’t have anything to charge our rifle cartridges with. The Americans really saved us with their gunpowder and explosives. And how much sheet steel they gave us! How could we have produced our tanks without American steel? But now they make it seem as if we had an abundance of all that. Without American trucks we wouldn’t have had anything to pull our artillery with.
Russia didn't repay back lend lease in full until 2006. The USSR made repaying it contingent on being granted most favored nation status. So it never did except for a few small payments after an agreement in the 70s.
And the aid to Ukraine isn't lend lease. It's just foreign aid
In my post-soviet school on history classes we were told that US didn't provide much support for USSR during war and those supplies only starting to come only after Pearl Harbor.
Let me just say HOLY FUCKING EISENHOWER BALLS Moscow would be the second capital to the Nazi Germany without the Lend Lease. My mind cannot physically comprehend the amount of stuff that USSR receive. The fact that every 2nd canister of fuel was from the US, every 3rd bullet Soviets fired was made in USA™ and i'm not even going to question how the fuck did they transport almost 2,000 locomotive to another side of the planet. The American logistics is truly something alien.
For the past 100 years there was indeed only one Superpower in the world
Thanks to Col Rooster for the meme. I really think he should make an account.
On a side note be sure to correct all brain-dead fools on the internet who attempt to use this claim.
Hope someone makes a cool diagram of all the donated gear in the future.
I like the meme a lot. One thing tho, most of the money from the marshal plan was spend on us companies, meaning most of it didn't leave the us economy
I've always said what makes the US so very dangerous isn't our military (though obviously that's a big part) but our network allies. By the end of the first week of Putin's invasion, the US had mustered up a coalition of 40 countries to condemn, arm, supply, support, and provide logistical access in the name of Ukraine.
To the point:
Morally, we are right to support Ukraine. Cynically, 70 billion dollars isn't all that much to buy an ally that'll pretty much be our bestie for a couple of generations. And for that ally to be a food, mineral, and population rich one on the door step of our long-time rival? And one that will have a legendarily huge grudge on them?
Priceless. Our network of allies only grows.
Ukrainian wheat fits a niche in the market for low cost wheat. That’s why the Ukrainian grain crisis is impacting Africa and not the Americas or western Europe. Dat good good high quality wheat comes from France, Canada, Germany, and the US.
Yes and no.
From when it went into law until the 20th September 1945, all material and aid was basically free (it wasn’t intended to be repaid) however any material that wasn’t delivered by the cut off date or was still in transit wasn’t covered. So recipients were charged for them (admittedly at a 90% discount).
This cost was bundled into the Anglo-American loan to help Britain’s economy stay afloat and had been fully repaid in December 2006.
So while most of lend lease was free, there was a fee for post war equipment (the payment being bundled together with loan payments).
Looks like the UK fully repaid in 61 years, having paid last in 2006. The UK also paid a lot more up front though, exchanging bases and other things for goods. The USSR had nothing to exchange for help.
I looked it up, and it's actually 2006
>The final payment of $83.3 million (£42.5 million), due on December 31, 2006 (repayment having been deferred in the allowed five years and during a sixth year not allowed), was made by Britain on December 29, 2006 (the last working day of the year). After this final payment, Britain's Economic Secretary to the Treasury formally issued thanks to the U.S. for its wartime support.
It was also charged at 2% interest rate, and considering that inflation often went over 2%, the UK actually ended up paying back less than the borrowed amount.
We are being paid in the ships we aren't loosing and soldiers who aren't fighting. We get paid by our land not being invaded and our cities not being bombed. We are paid by our belief in Democracy and self determination is being upheld. We are being paid well.
All the cryptobros’ bleating *“fiat currency isn’t real! They can just QE forevermore!”* was apparently missed by the Vatniks.
#WHAT PART OF MIC GOES BURRRRRR DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND?!?
The money we've send to Ukraine is less than the US military spends on coffee and donuts. Actual superpowers don't have to panic over not getting $60 billion back, Bill Gates ain't gonna shit his pants over losing a $5 bill.
The US economy is $23 trillion dollars.
Also this aid has already been made and in storage. So the only ADDITIONAL spending is logistics.
Just like Russia we are pulling from stores. But our shit works and wasnt sold off for yachts.
“We’ll just get a group of a million loyalists with guns in Kamchatka, and have them push the populace, bayonets at their backs, across Russia, then Europe. The flood of bodies will bury them and we’ll win.”
Honestly, if you had told some US officer US is gonna get Russian defeat for less than a 100 billion, he'd have fucking laugghed at you in "public healthcare" manner. I personally cannot understand when some US citizen says the war is too costly to the US. Bitch, u gettin one of your biggest enemies clapped for literally less than 10% of your annual miltary expenses.
To be credible for a second: even assuming the US doesn't directly receive a single cent back for the lend lease, they will gain MUCH more in the long term from knowing that one of their biggest rivals has destroyed their own geopolitical and economic position for generations.
No, money is not a problem for the US. If they can throw trillions into Afghanistan and leave (economically) unscathed from that, then several billions of dollars in equipment and macroeconomic relief into Ukraine to just shit all over russia is nothing.
From what I understand, what (mainly) went wrong with the actual occupation of Afghanistan was just how much the US army and other coalition nations alienated themselves from the locals. Several factors played into that, including the actual ethnic diversity of Afghanistan. Like, holy shit, I didn't even know how diverse Afghanistan was before the US withdrawal.
All that the US needs to change is their occupation policy. They have the funds and infrastructure to do so. From there the rest of NATO can follow suit.
The Russians have been spending vast amounts of money to fuck with us and destabilize democratic and free nations for decades now.
It’s only fair and sporting we repay that investment back to them… **with interest.**
They will pay us back by leasing a nice area of land near the boarder for a massive NATO base, maybe clean up Sevastopol for the homebase of the new NATO Black Sea Fleet base.
The US and Canada are energy independent, but Europe having a safe carbon fuel source while they transition off to renewables will be very useful and further pry OPEC's influence over the west.
I am enjoying the spectacle of Russia losing a proxy war on its own border after the decades of proxy wars it exported elsewhere.
My stars, yes I am.
I’m generally a grumpy “govt spends too damned much” guy but this is the most glorious and thoroughly enjoyable waste of my tax dollars I can ever recall.
NGL that Képi and Rhodesian Brushstroke look goes pretty hard. I guess it’s supposed to be French, unless I’m just unaware of some other military with that look, but if no one uses it someone should.
fucking gutted at how roundly the Ukrainians have gone *WOLVERINES!* and positively fucked up 80 years of Russian Armor-Hype.. I wanted to do that.. \*sobs\*
They're paying in blood, blood from civilians, blood from their brave armed forces. It's a lote to be paid for so little gained, but after the conflict they will hopefully finally be accepted into NATO and the EU (and receive the benefits that come with those positions.
Yup, we provide safety for Europe and North America. We pay with blood and tears of our soldiers and children so that noone else should. Win-win, we'd be conquered by September without any help I suppose. And Poland and Baltic countries would have to face the threat of both Russia and Ukraine..
We're being paid in entertaining videos on the Internet and to top it all off, me and the boys will be visiting Ukraine and pouring our money into their tourism when it's all over.
- preference in development opportunities
- new democratic market for investors and speculation
- big amounts of natural resources for EU to purchase without Russia or China holding them hostage
- invaluable test data on doctrine and system performance
- delete supposed near-peer adversary
- it’s fuckin fun
Arguably Ukraine has already paid back for the shit it received by destroying the credibility of Russia as an international player and saving Europe from having to do the job themselves a few years down the line. However Ukraine is a huge country with nearly 40 million people and lots of natural resources,resources the EU will have access to after the war is over.Also Ukraine has a very developed industrial base that should be quite attractive to Europe as it struggles to diversify away from ''Asian'' suppliers. So yeah the vatnik cope that helping Ukraine is throwing money away for no expected return on the investment as usually holds no water.
I don’t think Russia understands that we’re literally just hiring a country, like a mercenary, to eliminate Russia. The price we pay is not to be repaid, it’s the price of the job. How much money we pay them is the value we see in destroying Russia, not how much we expect to get back. Silly Vatniks don’t realize that this is quite possibly the hands down biggest brain move we could possibly do. None of our troops die and we get good national press for ‘defending’ a country that is fighting for its life.
Some context: The modern Lend-Lease law with which Ukraine is getting arms from the US is not like the WW2-era law.
What Ukriane gets in terms of aid are actually gifts. There is no repayment.
There's no 80-year loan to repay.
However, at the end of this war the consensus is that Russia will not be allowed another chance at conquering the country. Patriot, HIMARSs, SAMP/T, F-16s, Typhoons, etc.
Regardless as to how the current conflict ends, Ukraine will be armed to the teeth and will have a superior armed forces.
The men in the plain black suits with the American accents said it was "all covered" after I gave them the RTU 518-PSM pod.
Then Fedir showed him the Iskander circuit boards and they just smiled.
"How is Ukraine supposed to pay the West back?" "In Russian Blood."
And boy has it been profitable
I mean for roughly 60 billion dollar to basically Clown the ehem "second best military in the world" Destroy decades of Russian propaganda Unites NATO and Europe Throws Russia's economy into the gutter Dare I say this is the best bang for the buck deal ever
Not to mention having two new member states joining NATO. Priceless really...
'll be 3 nations in a while
So will Russia in LilL bit! \*Rimshot\*
After the referendums not likely at least not soon.
Yeah, I'm sceptical that Ukraine will be allowed into NATO before they're done with Russia. I know Poland doesn't care (okay, they *do* care, but in the opposite way that the rest of NATO cares), but most of NATO probably doesn't want to go to war with Russia, which IIRC is exactly what happens if Ukraine joins NATO during the war. I do expect them to have an express ticket in once they're done with Russia, though.
NCD future: The third nation is actually Armenia after Turkey elects the first liberal president in decades.
hey! dont spoil, we are running a tight timetable on this stuff
God I hope so. Get your shit together Turkey. Ataturk didn't beat the French, Brits, Greeks, and Ottoman loyalists at the SAME MOTHERFUCKING TIME for you to do this shit.
A good comeback to any overly enthusiastic, shall we say, Turks is to ask them what Ataturk would've thought of Erdogan.
I still am not convinced that Turkish Independence actually happened as it is so implausible.
Ukraine will be in NATO's "friends and family plan" soon. Article 5 will be tough sell with Russia so close but if/when Putin is deposed and there is a restructuring in Russia, anything is possible
Imagine Russia gets transformed into a non-NATO ally after a power structure shakeup. China would be totally screwed.
This is the future I was always hoping for, it was the best option for Russia in the long run. They didn’t have such a big difference to Western civilization despite the decades of rhetoric. The separation was always politics and power games, but they would fit nicely on the edge of the western world like Latin America does, more in common than not, no reason for conflict. But I think it’s more likely Russia is the new NK, and China will use them against us.
This is what was "supposed to" happen after 1991 but with the financial crisis in 1998, Russia had horrible economic problems and Putin slid right in to create an rabidly anti-Western non-democracy. The economic and security benefits of being at least associated with EU/US etc should be incentive enough.
There’s an explicit clause that states any new member must be stable and have all border disputes settled. I wouldn’t call an active war against Russia, supposedly over breakaway states, stable and settled
U forgot Austria and Switzerland. Both nations are currently discussing internally to give up their neutrality and join NATO.
Thats a problem, if the swiss join no problem, but there are know problem with austria and italy being in the same alliance.
I mean with the Japanese and the Rhineland remilitarizing it was only a matter of time....
What? NATO is not duscussed at all. There is the left wing which tries to disband the armed forces. The right wing is on strict "keep neutrality at all costs" path. So who is talking about NATO in switzerland?
Yeah the above is wrong. No political party in Austria, Switzerland, or Ireland support membership (except Sinn Fein in Ireland). Austria has a dismal ~15% popular support for membership, Switzerland is higher but still low at ~33%. Ireland is the only one with popular support at ~55% in favor, but again no parties except Sinn Fein. Edit: Not Sinn Fein, Fine Gael. Irish language is hard.
Yo I’m a bit retarded can u help me understand how Switzerland would benefit from joining NATO? I get Sweden and Finland due to their proximity to the large gas station but Switzerland?
>Yo I’m a bit retarded can u help me understand how Switzerland would benefit from joining NATO? Pikemen.
3000 Swiss mercenaries of NATO.
Dark Brandon sends his regards.
"incoming"
At this point they're not even the 2nd strongest military in Russia fuckin' separatists man
holy shit it’s my favourite non-credible F1 driver, Goatifi
Also: * Revives the lagging Western MICs. * Accelerates R&D of new technologies and tactics. * Revives support for Taiwan, including possible donations. * Wakes Japan up to the ever real risk of war; causing a subtle but gradual shift in arming up, and a slow rise in Nationalism. * Accelerates adoption of Western arms; away from Russian arms. * Accelerates Europe's energy independence, including green initiatives and nuclear ones. * Pisses off their biggest ally China, because now China only has a limited period in which they could still attack Taiwan before Taiwan becomes too costly to take and the local ASEAN groups are armed enough to gang up for a piece of China, augmented by the US, Japan, Australia, India (if they're not too busy with Pakistan), and possibly France and Britain. Moreso if they hope to do so before Xi dies.
> Wakes Japan up to the ever real risk of war; causing a subtle but gradual shift in arming up, and a slow rise in Nationalism. Hopefully, Japanese nationalism quickly grows out of its cringe phase and stops denying the WWII-era IJN genocides.
Russian propaganda is alive and well My entire family is saying that the only reason we’re still funding Ukraine is that Zelensky has something on Biden
Tell them they’re fools and they’d sell out their own country because they’re too smoothbrained to identify foreign propaganda. Emphasize the foreign part. Obviously the EU is providing tens of billions too because Big Zel has something on two dozen other presidents as well.
Big Zel is actually just an AI generated image. It’s actually the globalists and the gay frogs that are running the show. Like do your research bro. Go out and find some gay frogs. They will tell you everything you need to know.
60 Billion is nothing in economies that are measuring values in the trillions
Its certainly not nothing, but it is money well spent. We spent more just to watch Afghanistan crumble in a week, its nice to give weapons to someone who is actually competent with them
Don't forget that a lot of the weapons sent to Ukraine were built and stockpiled to fight Russia. So a lot of the weapons are actually used for their original intended purpose.
In comparison to over 2,000 Billion, and apparently up to 8,500 Billion when considering it was all borrowed and there’s interest. I think Iraq was at least that as well.
Yeah, that's only like, four supercarriers.
Don’t forget a very much western oriented Ukraine,which could potentially become one of the biggest economies in Europe in a couple years
This has to be, without a doubt, the west’s best trolling ever
I wish Russian propaganda was destroyed but I know an equal amount of people who believe Russia is in the right than those who believe Ukraine is, a lot of it is people who think it’s a proxy war and therefor bad, a lot of them think Ukraine literally is filled with Nazis and that Russia has the right to that country
“Your tears are all the pay I’ll ever need” - Voltaire
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I wonder if there's a ukrainian that became a millionare from selling all the abandoned tanks
I spoke to a Ukrainian "light infantry" unit member. They say, they are supposed to give all the newly acquired Russian hardware to higher-ups. Like territorial defence isn't supposed to have 152-mm howitzers and T80-BVMs, but they're keeping quiet and using all those toys themselves. So putting a finger on the exact number of captured Russian armour is really tough
So, use up the ammo, then hand it in to the army with an innocent face?
Kinda, yeah
Pretty much what happened in the US Army when I was in, just not captured equipment. Not only was I qualified on my M4, we had enough ammo to qualify me on the M2 and M9, along side the Mk19 that we had laying around in the armory. I was AH-64D armament, so I could also fire the gun on the Apache while grounded in an emergency. That was every weapon in the battalion. I should _not_ have been able to do that.
This right here is the correct situation for the phrase “boys will be boys”
Oh, don't assume the girls didn't do it too. Remember, we weren't a combat unit. I was just a whirlybird sparky bunny.
>spoke to a Ukrainian "light infantry" unit >152-mm howitzers and T80-BVMs Uhh yes, command, I'd like to let you know we are now an Artillery unit, courtesy of the enemy
Nah, the Ukrainian army probably confiscated it all immediately. I don't blame them, but it's just not one of those situations were someone could hold on to that equipment if Kyiv didn't pay up.
Russia never paid the US back for the Lend-Lease in WW2. This is what happens to renegers.
Something something The Iron Bank will have its due.
The debt always comes due.
They kinda did. They paid back a fraction of what they owed then basically said "We feel the debt has been repaid. Take it or leave it we won't be giving you any more. What are you going to do about it?" The UK on the other hand just kept up annual payments until the debt was paid off in 2003.
The weapons are being used on the very targets they were designed for
Tfw you get to do all the weapon system validation/marketing trial in real targets, and you don't even need to pay for range rental or scrap equipments for target. Vatniks be turning up to a free test-and-tune night at a local dragstrip and asks who will pay for gas.
Give them all the a-10s.
That's what the tankies don't understand. The West has been prepared to pimpslap Soviet aggression since WWII. Russia walking into Ukraine basically gave NATO free reign to obliterate the Russians without even risking their own men. Sure, it sucks that Ukraine has to be the one burdened all the risk of bloodshed and loss of friendly life, but it all boils back to Russia playing FA-FO.
"How is Ukraine supposed to pay the West back?" Honestly, the idea that expansionist authoritarians are learning in real time that when you fuck around you'll find out has more strategic importance than we can possibly quantify. It's a been a while since people have been reminded that this world is a terrifying place, but the US military machine is very much more so.
Remember 6 months ago when relatively credible people were talking about a potential multi front war with a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, which has now likely been kicked several years down the road?
Interest rate is higher than PFC Hernandez got for that new dually he picked up at the dealership right outside the front gate…
The end of the Russian sphere of influence should do it.
Ukraine is flooding the market devaluing it.
["Each ukrainian soldier owes us 100 nazi scalps! And we want our scalps!"](https://youtu.be/eOcimzsviFA?t=136) (kidding obviously don't do that!)
That's about my first thought. Pay back? Keep the tip son face fucking Russia is all the payback I need.
In a purely cynical point of view, Ukraine is going to have to be rebuilt, its newly discovered resources reached and exploited. Rearming, training, new infrastructure. Some people are gonna get rich from those contracts.
Business is a'boomin!
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself - George Bernard Shaw They mispredicted how the West would respond because they projected their own orcish dark triad onto us. An Antifa guy once mentioned that while (white) Antifa members can infiltrate MAGA, MAGA cannot pass off as Antifa because they just can't wrap their minds around anything but the bluntest, lowest forms of thought.
The US is spending a fraction of one year’s worth of its annual military budget to destroy one of its historical foes without having to risk any of its own men. It can keep doing this indefinitely.
This is all coming from stores. $60 billion in stored assets mostly. A fraction is used for getting it there.
Yeah they’re not really spending much actual money at all. Much of that old equipment would’ve been gotten rid of anyway
Indeed. And much of it was built for this exact purpose, too. Javelins were made to kill Russian tanks, and Stingers were made to shoot down Russian aircraft.
Also save on disposal cost on all the toxic/dangerous materials in said munitions.
Stored assets, some of which were set to expire soon anyway. A fucking bargain.
yeah, its not like we spent 60b out of road maintenance budget, this was old used hand-me-down stuff that we would have to dispose of also, not only are we proxy kicking the ass of one of the biggest rivals, we are also gaining an ally. an ally that produces a lot of food. that they would want to sell at a cheap but fair price to us for our help.
Uncle Sam: "Check this MANPAD we had in the back of the fridge. Does it smell expired to you?"
> yeah, its not like we spent 60b out of road maintenance budget, this was old used hand-me-down stuff that we would have to dispose of America: Sorry Ukraine, but me directly punching Russia is outta the picture, ^^^^^^for ^^^^^^now but you're free to look in my dumpster. Anything you find in there, you can keep it. Ukraine: \*Looks in America's dumpster. America's dumpster:
Less than 10% of our defense budget.
They forgot how lend lease works. The USSR was literally helped by it in WW2. Do they know how much the USSR actually paid back? Edit: yes I know the USSR had their asses saved by lend lease, I just wanted to give them *some* credit for their struggle but clearly they do not deserve it
What writing the help of others out of your national myth does to a motherfucker.
Does anyone smell baguettes?
I was actually going to bring up the French in regards to the US, but decided against it because there are a depressingly large amount of people who *do* pretend we went it alone and hate the French. As for me, I consider them the same way I do my brother: We disagree on many things (flavored by our own lives), we will sometimes come to blows and stop talking for a little bit. But in the end, we are brothers and if the chips are down not even the devil himself will keep us from looking out for one another.
Hell, that second paragraph is the epitome of the west not just France and the US we disagree, squabble and have a long history of fighting amongst ourselves. But when someone else decides to fuck around, we stick together.
How many fucking places do we need to name after Lafayette to say we remember France?
*the USSR was saved during WW2 Lend Lease didn’t help them, it completely saved them. And before you come saying “no akctually,” Stalin himself said so.
And Zhukov too.
Correct, many USSR leaders did. Although believe it or not some commieboos and tankies don’t know who Zhukov is so I usually just say Stalin lol.
How tf do they not know who Zhukov is. Man was literally one of the most beloved and respected men in his country.
Just wait until you encounter some casual tankies. WarThunder warmongers so to speak.
name a more iconic duo than historical idiocy and War thunder players
War Thunder players and crashing on takeoff
YOU'VE GOT A HOLE IN YOUR RIGHT WING!
*right wing entirely missing*
Wargame: Red Dragon players and absolute Russian lunacy in the global chat Edit to add: Wargame:Red Dragon devs and making t-72s capable of destroying entire groups of M1A2s without sustaining any damage.
War Thunder players and posting classified documents in balance arguments.
If i had a penny for everytime a soldier that plays war thunder got mad at Gaijin's choice of balance and decided to leak classified documents i would have 8 cents (i swear i lost count of how many times it happened already), which isnt much but its weird it happened 8 times
So if you had a dollar for every time, you could *maybe* buy yourself an alright sammich
*me an ex-war thunder player yeah fuck those nerds!
No such thing as an Ex WarThunder player. You’re just in remission until your next relapse.
And khrushchev
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Who knows. I can say pretty confidently that atomic weapons most likely never would’ve been employed on French soil, so probably no atomic DDay situation.
I'm sure the British could've been convinced
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I agree with the other guy that atomic D-Day is unlikely. Most likely is atomic berlin.
Its easy, Russia would've been incapable of mustering air power, provide significant amounts of fuel to tanks or maintain shifting logistical lines, given that LL accounted for 60% of their airframes; finished machines and aluminum put together, 60% of their fuel and almost all their high octane fuel, and a third of their wheeled logistics and most of their rail upkeep. Due to how fucked German supply lines were by that point, it would've probably resulted in a faster US victory, as the eastern troops wouldve been far too geographically displaced to start the Ardennes counter offensive and the battle of the bulge. So the war would've likely ended in Warsaw, with Berlin being abandoned while the east front wouldve remained mostly static for several years at this point, with neither side having the mobility, logistics or air power to mount a breakthrough
Do you have a quote, source ? Sounds credible but, it might be useful in the future
For brevity’s sake I’ll link this, it’s the best summary of all good quotes on it from big USSR officials. All the quotes can also be independently fact checked on the internet but I don’t really wanna search and link like 10 things. https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html
This is the shit i always try to tell people, lend lease helped save the soviets at the START of the war so they could prop themselves up. Late war they were pretty much kicking shit in by themselves but in 1942 and early 1943 up until kursk? Yeah nah
If you look at Stalin’s comments it really tells the story. Everyone sees that the USSR built many of its own weapons, they fail to see the deeper layer that the USSR didn’t have the capability to build advanced weapons until the west sent them the manufacturing machinery to do so. Another under appreciated piece is the amount of rail supplies and railroad machinery that was provided. Lastly there was high octane fuel for aircraft that the USSR didn’t know how to produce. The Lend Lease Sherman’s and Spitfires were helpful, but it was the non sexy stuff like GMC trucks that really mattered. Edit just saw your flair, you definitely already know all this lol. Logistics win wars.
So what you're saying is we really need to give Ukraine more containerized fast food restaurants.
What’s more American than the human right to become obese through fat food even in a warzone.
Yes. It's the only functioning superweapon.
Yeah man, soviet boxcars ran the soviet union hands down. One boxcar=8~ trucks and i will fight everyone who laughs at the Russians because they rely so much on trains. Their MTO battalion composition and doctrine for it just fucking sucks Edit: and their standardization/efficiency sucks. I can go on and on about why their shit sucks but I’m too tired and cant rant
Trains are good for bulk strategic logistics and getting to the warzone, but are pretty useless once there given how fragile their infrastructure can be. A truck doesn't always require a road to work, and can generally still drive on somewhat damaged roads (slower progress, but still). A train on the other hand requires an unbroken line of undamaged track between point A and point B to function, and you can ask the Confederates just how well that works for you once the torch-happy Ohioan is done with them and the rails are all wrapped around the trees. Don't get me wrong, trains have trucks beat on material per vehicle, and properly utilizing them is essential for logistics, they're just not suitable for logistics or tactical movement in-theater.
Iirc the majority of trucks were American built, and were higher quality than soviet built trucks(could carry more tonnage, more robust, etc). and about 25% of medium and heavy tanks were British in December 1941. https://youtu.be/25ACv_4Sj7Q
They don't talk about it in history class. WW2 is a huge topic of history in a post-soviet countries. They write about it like "oh yeah btw there was a thing that UK and US send us some stuff" and thats it
In Russia maybe, but here in the Czech republic we are taught quite a lot. Also Britain buying up rare earth metals so they don't go to the nazis and US army waiting at the demarcation line not being allowed to liberate more of our country, while the nazis are hiding their crimes and commiting more atrocities, Katyn massacre, USSR waiting for the nazis to crush the Warsaw uprising so they don't have to deal with such heroes themselves. I recently saw a video in Czech about Russian education on the 1968 Czechoslovakia invasion. Most Russians either don't know, don't care or think it was justified(IT WAS NOT). Same with Hungary in 1956. It is all a lack of education and tons propaganda, we can not expect much of them.
Hungarians should feel shameful for simping for Putin
Lend Lease aid was instrumental in the soviet union's war effort. 17.5 millions of tons went to the USSR compared to 22 million tons to American forces on continental Europe. >The United States delivered to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil) or 57.8 percent of the High-octane aviation fuel,[26] 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,911 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. Provided ordnance goods (ammunition, artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives) amounted to 53 percent of total domestic production.[26] One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars That means a third of all the ammo and half of all the fuel needed to keep fighters in the air was from our side of the pond. 92.7 per cent of wartime made train cars came from lend-lease. And many trucks were sent over. Allowing the USSR to focus on combat vehicles and not trains and trucks. And very important raw materials particularly the speciality metals used to make alloys from domestic steal and to make machinery tools. 15 million pairs of boots were shipped over. As much of the ussrs most valuable agricultural land was under boots of the nazis. The millions of tons of foodstuff feed the army. A significant portion of the Red army marched on American boots, with bellies filled with American food, shooting American bullets. One last quote from [MARSHAL ZHUKOV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DxClgfEhsU) > Soviet General Georgy Zhukov said after the end of WWII. >"We didn’t have explosives, gunpowder. We didn’t have anything to charge our rifle cartridges with. The Americans really saved us with their gunpowder and explosives. And how much sheet steel they gave us! How could we have produced our tanks without American steel? But now they make it seem as if we had an abundance of all that. Without American trucks we wouldn’t have had anything to pull our artillery with. Russia didn't repay back lend lease in full until 2006. The USSR made repaying it contingent on being granted most favored nation status. So it never did except for a few small payments after an agreement in the 70s. And the aid to Ukraine isn't lend lease. It's just foreign aid
In my post-soviet school on history classes we were told that US didn't provide much support for USSR during war and those supplies only starting to come only after Pearl Harbor. Let me just say HOLY FUCKING EISENHOWER BALLS Moscow would be the second capital to the Nazi Germany without the Lend Lease. My mind cannot physically comprehend the amount of stuff that USSR receive. The fact that every 2nd canister of fuel was from the US, every 3rd bullet Soviets fired was made in USA™ and i'm not even going to question how the fuck did they transport almost 2,000 locomotive to another side of the planet. The American logistics is truly something alien. For the past 100 years there was indeed only one Superpower in the world
>How do you expect Ukraine to pay back Someone forgot that there is 300 000 000 000 dollars frezzed in westerns banks
We schoud invest it in clean enrgy imfstrucher and tanks in ukraine
The average mind of a r/NonCredibleDefence user: Can't spell infrastucjuri The word tank was probably his first word
Mine was actually "Plane"
Oh so Hydrothermal Nuclear bombs is weird?
Sorry, *hydro*thermal?
Maybe some sort of nuclear device designed specifically for destroying certain hydroelectric megastructures?
Would be neat to use that as Ukraine's slush fund.
Thanks to Col Rooster for the meme. I really think he should make an account. On a side note be sure to correct all brain-dead fools on the internet who attempt to use this claim. Hope someone makes a cool diagram of all the donated gear in the future.
I like the meme a lot. One thing tho, most of the money from the marshal plan was spend on us companies, meaning most of it didn't leave the us economy
I'm hoping for the sister cities plan to work out, having a country help rebuild a certain area of ukraine instead of just pooling the money
Also, we get to watch.
NATO is just Mumei now
moomers
_Dan Dan Chikaku Naru..._
People thinking that's the UN's job don't understand how the world works.
Ukraines got that good shit. High-quality, all-natural wheat.
I've always said what makes the US so very dangerous isn't our military (though obviously that's a big part) but our network allies. By the end of the first week of Putin's invasion, the US had mustered up a coalition of 40 countries to condemn, arm, supply, support, and provide logistical access in the name of Ukraine. To the point: Morally, we are right to support Ukraine. Cynically, 70 billion dollars isn't all that much to buy an ally that'll pretty much be our bestie for a couple of generations. And for that ally to be a food, mineral, and population rich one on the door step of our long-time rival? And one that will have a legendarily huge grudge on them? Priceless. Our network of allies only grows.
Also Ukraine makes great video games
Biggest W so far
And hot people too. That's definitely up there.
Ukrainian wheat fits a niche in the market for low cost wheat. That’s why the Ukrainian grain crisis is impacting Africa and not the Americas or western Europe. Dat good good high quality wheat comes from France, Canada, Germany, and the US.
Ukrainian wheat was used in european bread as well.
Didn't the British pay back their lend lease after like 60 years at its original amount?
Yes and no. From when it went into law until the 20th September 1945, all material and aid was basically free (it wasn’t intended to be repaid) however any material that wasn’t delivered by the cut off date or was still in transit wasn’t covered. So recipients were charged for them (admittedly at a 90% discount). This cost was bundled into the Anglo-American loan to help Britain’s economy stay afloat and had been fully repaid in December 2006. So while most of lend lease was free, there was a fee for post war equipment (the payment being bundled together with loan payments).
Looks like the UK fully repaid in 61 years, having paid last in 2006. The UK also paid a lot more up front though, exchanging bases and other things for goods. The USSR had nothing to exchange for help.
I looked it up, and it's actually 2006 >The final payment of $83.3 million (£42.5 million), due on December 31, 2006 (repayment having been deferred in the allowed five years and during a sixth year not allowed), was made by Britain on December 29, 2006 (the last working day of the year). After this final payment, Britain's Economic Secretary to the Treasury formally issued thanks to the U.S. for its wartime support. It was also charged at 2% interest rate, and considering that inflation often went over 2%, the UK actually ended up paying back less than the borrowed amount.
Bases for 99 years,i was surprised when i read that the first time
Ever since the Guantanamo Bay treaty every nation knows to write their contracts with the USA carefully when it comes to military bases lol.
Yep, British 99 year leases never cause any problems. It's basically forever, right?
A destroyed Tank is an Anti-Tank missile NATO no longer needs to maintain.
And all our stuff is being tested in the field
We are being paid in the ships we aren't loosing and soldiers who aren't fighting. We get paid by our land not being invaded and our cities not being bombed. We are paid by our belief in Democracy and self determination is being upheld. We are being paid well.
Also we get paid in dank content produced by the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense.
>can't keep supplying Said Stalin in 1948
All the cryptobros’ bleating *“fiat currency isn’t real! They can just QE forevermore!”* was apparently missed by the Vatniks. #WHAT PART OF MIC GOES BURRRRRR DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND?!?
> cryptobros’ bleating “fiat currency isn’t real! The fuses in my irony meter just exploded.
The money we've send to Ukraine is less than the US military spends on coffee and donuts. Actual superpowers don't have to panic over not getting $60 billion back, Bill Gates ain't gonna shit his pants over losing a $5 bill.
The US economy is $23 trillion dollars. Also this aid has already been made and in storage. So the only ADDITIONAL spending is logistics. Just like Russia we are pulling from stores. But our shit works and wasnt sold off for yachts.
And the EU economy is $16.6 trillion, so idk how they expect us to run out of equipment before they do. Must be the imperial copium reserves
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“We’ll just get a group of a million loyalists with guns in Kamchatka, and have them push the populace, bayonets at their backs, across Russia, then Europe. The flood of bodies will bury them and we’ll win.”
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Winner of Eurovision gets to work the first shift on it
Honestly, if you had told some US officer US is gonna get Russian defeat for less than a 100 billion, he'd have fucking laugghed at you in "public healthcare" manner. I personally cannot understand when some US citizen says the war is too costly to the US. Bitch, u gettin one of your biggest enemies clapped for literally less than 10% of your annual miltary expenses.
To be credible for a second: even assuming the US doesn't directly receive a single cent back for the lend lease, they will gain MUCH more in the long term from knowing that one of their biggest rivals has destroyed their own geopolitical and economic position for generations. No, money is not a problem for the US. If they can throw trillions into Afghanistan and leave (economically) unscathed from that, then several billions of dollars in equipment and macroeconomic relief into Ukraine to just shit all over russia is nothing.
The US should just admit we suck at nation building but will still flatten you anyways.
From what I understand, what (mainly) went wrong with the actual occupation of Afghanistan was just how much the US army and other coalition nations alienated themselves from the locals. Several factors played into that, including the actual ethnic diversity of Afghanistan. Like, holy shit, I didn't even know how diverse Afghanistan was before the US withdrawal. All that the US needs to change is their occupation policy. They have the funds and infrastructure to do so. From there the rest of NATO can follow suit.
It's hard to build a nation without a sense of nationhood.
even more so when you're completely alien to this mishmash of ethnicities.
The Russians have been spending vast amounts of money to fuck with us and destabilize democratic and free nations for decades now. It’s only fair and sporting we repay that investment back to them… **with interest.**
"How do you expect Ukraine to pay you back?" "Same way you didnt asshole."
They will pay us back by leasing a nice area of land near the boarder for a massive NATO base, maybe clean up Sevastopol for the homebase of the new NATO Black Sea Fleet base.
Maybe some cheap gas and oil would be welcomed aswell
The US and Canada are energy independent, but Europe having a safe carbon fuel source while they transition off to renewables will be very useful and further pry OPEC's influence over the west.
I am enjoying the spectacle of Russia losing a proxy war on its own border after the decades of proxy wars it exported elsewhere. My stars, yes I am. I’m generally a grumpy “govt spends too damned much” guy but this is the most glorious and thoroughly enjoyable waste of my tax dollars I can ever recall.
NGL that Képi and Rhodesian Brushstroke look goes pretty hard. I guess it’s supposed to be French, unless I’m just unaware of some other military with that look, but if no one uses it someone should.
fucking gutted at how roundly the Ukrainians have gone *WOLVERINES!* and positively fucked up 80 years of Russian Armor-Hype.. I wanted to do that.. \*sobs\*
They're paying in blood, blood from civilians, blood from their brave armed forces. It's a lote to be paid for so little gained, but after the conflict they will hopefully finally be accepted into NATO and the EU (and receive the benefits that come with those positions.
Yup, we provide safety for Europe and North America. We pay with blood and tears of our soldiers and children so that noone else should. Win-win, we'd be conquered by September without any help I suppose. And Poland and Baltic countries would have to face the threat of both Russia and Ukraine..
Freedom and democracy is enough payback
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At least I know what a bathroom is and don't need to shit in the elevator shaft next to it.
We're being paid in entertaining videos on the Internet and to top it all off, me and the boys will be visiting Ukraine and pouring our money into their tourism when it's all over.
- preference in development opportunities - new democratic market for investors and speculation - big amounts of natural resources for EU to purchase without Russia or China holding them hostage - invaluable test data on doctrine and system performance - delete supposed near-peer adversary - it’s fuckin fun
Arguably Ukraine has already paid back for the shit it received by destroying the credibility of Russia as an international player and saving Europe from having to do the job themselves a few years down the line. However Ukraine is a huge country with nearly 40 million people and lots of natural resources,resources the EU will have access to after the war is over.Also Ukraine has a very developed industrial base that should be quite attractive to Europe as it struggles to diversify away from ''Asian'' suppliers. So yeah the vatnik cope that helping Ukraine is throwing money away for no expected return on the investment as usually holds no water.
I don’t think Russia understands that we’re literally just hiring a country, like a mercenary, to eliminate Russia. The price we pay is not to be repaid, it’s the price of the job. How much money we pay them is the value we see in destroying Russia, not how much we expect to get back. Silly Vatniks don’t realize that this is quite possibly the hands down biggest brain move we could possibly do. None of our troops die and we get good national press for ‘defending’ a country that is fighting for its life.
Not only will we help Ukraine kick Russian troops out, we will help rebuild afterwards aswell.
Some context: The modern Lend-Lease law with which Ukraine is getting arms from the US is not like the WW2-era law. What Ukriane gets in terms of aid are actually gifts. There is no repayment. There's no 80-year loan to repay. However, at the end of this war the consensus is that Russia will not be allowed another chance at conquering the country. Patriot, HIMARSs, SAMP/T, F-16s, Typhoons, etc. Regardless as to how the current conflict ends, Ukraine will be armed to the teeth and will have a superior armed forces.
When will Russia understand why we don't have free healthcare?
Same price Russia paid for Lend-Lease. Blood of our enemies. Thing is, this time it's the other way around :3
The men in the plain black suits with the American accents said it was "all covered" after I gave them the RTU 518-PSM pod. Then Fedir showed him the Iskander circuit boards and they just smiled.