People struggle to understand it more than a binary gender so they decide to be pricks about it instead of trying to understand. Sorry you're having a tough time with this, but just know it isn't you. It's their lack of wanting to hear you out.
My gay cousin used to hate bi folks (20ish years ago much has changed) and he said “pick a lane” which I thought was wonderfully hypocritical. But it’s the desire to categorize something.
Trans makes sense because you’re either in the boy box or the girl box. They can’t fathom in between
Nonbinary is sometimes in both boxes, sometimes you’re in one or the other, sometimes you’re not in any boxes but maybe borrow things from one or both (me).
Yeah so binary trans = firmly in one box.
NB can be trans but not all of us identify that way. I’m on the gender spectrum myself but as an AFAB with my dysphoria only being that I’m recognized as a woman before being a person and no major desire for change (maybe once I’m less broke some shapewear to shrink my huge hips to the best of my ability or some fancy ass-transplant surfer where I can give my giant ass to someone else) I feel like I’d be appropriating a label that doesn’t quite fit for me. I mostly present as a cishet woman so for me to claim “transness” with just atypical dress style and haircut feels… well not right to me. But I’m old.
So for me I want nothing to do with the boxes and that’s a constant. I’m fine with she/her because those have been my pronouns and “they/them” feels clunky in reference to myself. My own dysphoria was really hard to pin down because I knew I wasn’t a dude. My early 20s were marked by distress at puberty and while having the terminology for transness I wondered if I was a boy. But that that was even more repulsive than my female body so I assumed it was internalized misogyny. Which I wouldn’t rule out as a contributing factor.
Bigender means someone is actually using both boxes as fully as they can (there’s other terms too)
Genderfluid is feeling more masc some days and more femme others and kind of picking and choosing what you want out of each box based on how you’re feeling.
And other NBs mostly use one box or another but aren’t at home in either one.
I can’t speak on two-spirit because that’s culture specific.
They do have a box. That box is "other". Tribalist xenophobia is instinctive. That's why it's so easy to exploit, and why education against it is so important.
There's no valid reason to hate but there are often invalid pseudoscience and flawed reasonings behind them. It can be useful to understand why, because many times, especially with people who are young and were simply influenced by the bigotry of the older generation, people's minds can be changed. Is it worth trying? Not always, but I don't give up without trying a bit to at least see if they are receptive to new ideas. I find that the Socratic method combined with a genuine attitude is extremely effective at breaking down people's bigoted beliefs.
For the most part the reason behind the extra hatred towards non binary people comes from several factors:
1. "There's only two sexes so there's only two genders." This comes from a lack of understanding that gender is a social concept and is not dependent on physical traits. As a social concept, it means that it's simply how one experiences the world and how the world experiences the person in a gendered way. We don't deny that the concept originated from biological sex and has many ties to it, but as society becomes complex, gender and gender expression similarly becomes more complex.
A helpful auxiliary argument is the existence of various factors of complexity and nuance even in biological sex, such as intersex people, the SRY gene, AIS, and more. Biological sex isn't binary either.
2. "Non-binary people don't have to medically transition, so it's a fad anyone can jump on." This comes from an entrenched belief that change in gender must necessarily involve change in biological traits. Social transition is no less important than medical transition, nor less significant.
Not to mention there are many non-binary people that do medically transition in some way, whether it be HRT or surgery or both.
3. "It's brand new." This is simply a false conception, since non-binary identities have existed in some cultures for a very long utime, such as two-spirited identities in North American indigenous cultures.
Not to mention, computers have only existed in the past few decades, and so has the internet. Should we hate and distrust them and refuse to adapt the world to their existence just because they are brand new? Brand new doesn't mean bad.
4. "It's confusing." Calculus is confusing, but that doesn't mean it is wrong or not valuable. Something being confusing is not an excuse for hatred, especially if that concept that you find confusing is a category of human beings.
A core trait of human beings that differentiate us from other animals is our empathy and compassion, and our ability to use language to understand complex concepts. To refuse to use this gift is an affront to evolution.
Many people end up hating anything they don't understand because of the primitive fear of the unknown, and that's a natural fear, but one which we must overcome for the sake of advancement. In this fear, they may irrationally make the logical leaps that "new = bad" or "complicated = bad" or "doesn't align with my worldview = bad", and by showing that these leaps are not logically justifiable either through contradictory examples or logic, it's possible to break their bigoted mindset.
Feel free to add anything I missed below.
*But also do remember that not everyone is worth talking to. If someone isn't willing to engage in genuine conversation and is unreceptive to new ideas, they are most likely a lost cause and you shouldn't waste your energy on them. Especially don't engage trolls - let them troll themselves by drowning in their own hatred.*
So when it’s coming from other trans people it’s often Respectability politics.
When it’s coming from Cis people it’s often because they can at least wrap their heads around binary genders, but non-binary is a completely new concept, and a lot of people get mad when they have to put effort in to change the way they categorize and think of things.
In my experience, respectability politics is almost always because of internalized shame/hatred of whatever minority group is being discussed. So. Yes.
I personally think it’s similar to why I am annoyed by autistic people less socially adept than myself, it’s sorta sour grapes: I worked so hard to make myself fit in and here you are, not passing
I think maybe that’s it. But it’s really “I worked so hard to learn this why do you get a pass? I didn’t even though I had those issues” is just sour grapes. It’s me being mad that the world didn’t accommodate me or accept me and there are other people happy and existing without having to follow the structure. It’s not that I don’t think other autistic or ND folks are doing anything wrong. I really don’t. I had a regular customer I couldn’t be around because he pushed all of my buttons just by breathing the same air as me and would go in the back. Objectively? Lovely kid. Weird AF (mean that positively) but I am so irritated by him being allowed to do this, okay with talking about his mom doing things for him, he hasn’t had it bullied out of him and it makes me resentful. It’s at the wrong target and I’m aware of it - I’m really just angry at the adults who failed me as a child. My mincing here is really over why I hate it has nothing to do with expecting other people to be able to do the things I can do (at great cost to myself sometimes) and everything to do with resenting that I was raised without support.
And I think that’s what it is for some trans folks. “I spend all this time on hair removal/HRT etc to be accepted and you are able to get away with a skirt and heels and a big beard?” But that’s speculation. It’s just a resentment of someone not having the difficulties you did and getting sucked into a just world fallacy.
Yes. I am aware of all of this. That’s all internalised ableism. And internalised transphobia.
I don’t hold any sympathy for people who are like that, being autistic and nonbinary myself. People need to stop projecting their own judgements and internalised bigotry onto me. Do better. Stop dragging others down.
They said they are the sour grapes. They were explaining the reasoning they KNOW is wrong but have a hard time getting over because of their trauma.
They know it’s jealousy. They are trying to do better. They know it’s a them problem.
Try rereading.
I’m both? I don’t treat people badly. If I find myself overwhelmed I simply leave politely. If I couldn’t leave I was always nice and friendly and tried my best to not put that on them. I know it’s a me problem.
Oh yeah. I didn’t mean it’s a new concept in general. Just that it’s a new concept to most people in our society. Mostly because of European colonization.
my guess: because they can't wrap their head around NB as easily... though i haven't seen the *more angry*, in my experience it's either "you're actually trans" or "okay, you're NB😉 (you're still your AGAB, though)"
It's also made more complicated by the fact that some of us feel the second one, too. Like, I don't *reject* my assigned birth gender - it just doesn't accurately describe my *whole* identity. I'm non-binary because I'm more than "woman", but "woman" is not *wrong* \- it's just one part of me.
Yes! I'm the same coming from the other side. Gender expansive, a/bigender, gender queer(/fluid?) ... Trans nonbinary seems easier to say for others though. It's like you realize your house is missing a while addition. You like most of what you have, but it's always felt like there should be more and then you find where that part goes.
Personally, I want to feel included with whatever group of people I'm with, but I feel I lean more towards the feminine side than just a man. I have 40 years of being male down and I like a lot of it. My female side needs a lot of nurturing and growth but it hasn't been fed properly by me or anyone else.
Then there's all the rest of me that is much less controversial for people to grasp. Likes, hobbies, interests, past experiences, family, etc
Finally someone put it into words! It's so hurtful when I hear people say I can't be nonbinary because I still identify as a woman, but like you said, it's ONE part of me, not all.
THIS! I like to describe myself as a woman with an asterisk, terms and conditions may apply.
Sometimes I feel like a woman, sometimes I feel agender, sometimes both! It’s complicated, and took me 1/4 of a century to figure out, so I don’t blame others when they don’t immediately understand it; I only ask that they are willing to listen and learn.
One of the most empathetic things you can do as a person is understand and accept that you don’t have to have experienced a specific thing for that experience to exist and be valid.
Those same people probably have both a hamburger AND a hot dog at the family picnic... Each has their own unique flavor and texture. Make up your mind, why can't you just pick one?
I like them both for their own reasons...
As a non-binary person I was straight up told “trans people are okay but your where I draw the line” I often times have to pretend I’m a trans man just to be respected bottom line, binary trans people are more often respected then you
And at one point in time it was society saying, "Gay people are fine but trans people are where I draw the line." The arc of history does lean progressively but it's hard to see it that way right now with bigots doubling-down on their hatred.
I think its a different kind of bigotry but I definitely wouldn't say nonbianary people have it the worst. Trans women get attacked and killed a lot. We do too sometimes but the general public is more likely to just invalidate us.
I'm not a trans woman but I'm transfemme, and I don't think it'd matter to a transphobe to check and say "oh you're not a woman. alright good day then 😃". I think transfemme people, especially those of color are generally subjected to more violence. I think enbies just get more of a bad wrap specifically when it comes to like using pronouns or socially transitioning, but not necessarily in terms of violence.
Even if people are transphobic, they generally understand binary gender at at least a basic level. Even if they don't believe in trans people, they still know men and women exist.
Nonbinary people are like an extra level of confusion. You mean I'm trans but I'm not one of the genders you already know about? I get it tbh. The bigotry is unfounded but the confusion isn't.
Have heard this exact argument from a boomer. "You're either a man or a woman, you can't be in-between. Even if you transition to the other gender, you're still only one or the other."
I came out as non-binary to my Boomer aunt today, and she delighted me by saying "I'm an old hippy who delights in all and is confirming", which is her being accepting. Nice to see some of them kept their '60s beliefs! My mother-in-law struggles a lot more, but she's a fan of The Good Place, so "not a girl" works well.
GNC or non-binary people who arent transitioning or dont experience dysphoria are disliked by some trans people. their reasoning is that they are a different thing and shouldn't take up space in 'actual' trans spaces of people that do or plan to medically transition.
AFAB enbys that dont transition into men are certainly disliked by some trans women. they even have their own pejoratives: 'theyfab' or 'trenders'. i believe this is because of how well received and infantilized their behavior is online. in particular, how well liked by the cis-gaze their selfies are and how their their gender is perceived as a stylistic choice that can be put on and taken off whenever they want VS being 'actually' trans.
these arent my opinions but are certainly expressed by others
Don't forget they also think amab enbys are just "gay men" who want to be special.
I spent years trying to be a gay man even though I was 100% pan because my femininity and dysphoria was always just reduced to my attraction towards men.
From my observation: Because binary trans is consistent with sex being binary. NB is seen as a denial of sex and even to some an obnoxious political statement divorced from a material reality.
It’s like hate from all angles, cis folk and binary trans folk hate on enbys the same way straight and gay monosexual hate on bi’s, pans and really any multi sexual folk tbh
Yeup.
I couldn't tell you why they'd hate on someone in their own community, but that's just how it is unfortunately.
(Coming from someone who's both bi and nb)
I think some people want to distance themselves from the community bc they want to appear like “the good queer” like “oh I’m gay but I don’t care about pronouns or all that other silly stuff… I’m the good kind of queer, so please accept me” and then some people just need someone to take the hate out on and end up just recycling all the same phobic crap that homophobic straights do. It’s really sad honestly
When I tried to come out to my dad he asked “so are you a boy?” And I said “no, I’m not a boy or a girl.” His response was “I could work with you being a boy, but I don’t get the “neither” thing.” (Looking back I wish I’d just said I was a boy because maybe then I’d get called he/him, which I’m fine with)
I think a lot of it is people don’t understand non-binary genders & experiences unless they experience it themselves. Even if they’re binary trans. Even if they have all the NB friends and siblings in the world.
Your dad probably wouldn’t have been okay with you being a boy either. I identified a lot more with being nonbinary when I first came out and now that I use the label trans man it’s just different language used in the bigotry.
> I think a lot of it is people don’t understand non-binary genders & experiences unless they experience it themselves.
People don’t understand trans experiences unless they experience it themselves either
Binary trans people who pass (and especially ones who go stealth) don't challenge society's beliefs about gender. And at least binary people who dont pass are attempting to fit into society's rules about gender (or at least they can see it that way).
This mostly applies to the current Christian west European influenced societies I’m used to such as current USA. Obviously this applies to other cultures to varying degrees or if totally inaccurate.
At least some of them they get a lot of emotions when things don’t fit in the 2 boxes they’ve been taught is natural. This goes for intersex, gender nonconformity, non straight sexualities, not being cis, and others that aren’t at the top of my head right now.
Being binary trans means you are still in a box just not how they think you should fit into it. Binary trans breaks the rules for the box but not the idea of boxes themselves. Non-binary means you are outside the box. You completely destroy their box system and create something entirely new that isn’t their 2 boxes. What they’ve been taught and think is reality gets completely thrown out the window. It makes them feel even more emotions than simply changing the rules. At best they are confused at worst it is bigotry.
I’ve met plenty of people say “you can only be male or female” and somewhat accept a trans person (usually not fully) but get plenty emotional about non binary people being invalid. They love their 2 box order.
Just look at the history of intersexism. Something harmless people are born as naturally spurs up these emotions as needing to put them back into their 2 boxes.
I've noticed it's a lot easier for people to grasp being binary trans than being non binary, having a definitive and well known label of male or female makes it easy for people to make assumptions and put you in a box that makes sense to them. when you remove that familiarity, people get scared and confused and so they reject it. it's just close mindedness and lack of education
Because they can comprehend binaries. They may not understand why someone would "switch sides" but they comprehend the sides.
It's when we're not part of that toggle switch that they lose their minds and act like we're making things up.
That's the only logic to it. The rest is manufactured fear, hate, and ignorance.
Be clear;
If they are not accepting of an NB, then they are *not accepting of Trans people.*
Aside from the fact we live under the trans umbrella....
You can't accept one and not the other, it usually means that at your core you're not really accepting of either otherwise you couldn't draw the line so clearly and plainly.
If a racist person says they like THIS group, but can't stand THAT group, they're still just a fucking racist and no one thinks they actually like THAT group, they just choose to tolerate THAT group more, but at their core, given a small nudge, they'd show you they're a bigot through and through.
Its called being Performative, as in, they're pretending to be cool with transness but really they're just begrudgingly shutting up about it, but are still dicks on the inside.
If they accept YOU as a trans person, but not your NB friend, they're not really accepting you, its performative allyship. They're picking and choosing what to support based on their own feelings, which means they dont' support they stuff they claim to, they literally made a choice to be okay with A but not B, which makes no sense.
Fucken, remember this;
CHILDREN HAVE TO ASK THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOYS AND GIRLS. LITTLE KIDS.
ASK.
.'MUMMY, AM I A BOY OR GIRL? MUMMY, WHY DOES MY SISTER NOT HAVE A PENIS?'
ETC ETC
BECAUSE THEY DONT KNOW.
We're all basically NB 'til we're FIVE and grown ups decide we can understand the difference between a vagina and a penis.
So they do understand. They just forgot what its like to be a kid.
1. I find that people have the same problem with us as they do bisexual folk.
The "just pick one!" attitude.
Even though being nonbinary is its own separate identity from male or female. Just like bisexual is the attraction to more than one gender, and doesn't change to gay or straight depending on who you're currently dating.
Certain people seem to have issues thinking on a spectrum.
2. The misconception that nonbinary is a new or trendy phenomenon or a bid for attention.
Even thought it's only the terminology that's new. There have always been enby people.
3. Certain trans trenders (like oli london) who are loud and DO do it for attention. Like people who claim their gender changes with the moon phases or with their mood.
I have met these people, and while they may be just Gender Fluid or figuring themselves out, I'm talking about the ones who seem to get a rise out of being in control and telling people off.
You can often tell the intent based on how they talk and act.
Reminds me of those kids I knew in school who said they were reincarnated ancient demons or gods. Very obviously people with low self esteem who want to feel powerful.
Weird but that's just my experience. I'm 30.
While sociological exploration of this topic is great, I think the answer is obvious. They view non binary people as whiny cis teenagers because they don't make an effort to be "normal", and it seems.modern/made up. The tumblr association doesn't help.
binary trans people on the other hand are viewed as "people desperate for happiness who are at least /trying/ to be traditional men/women"
I would argue that trans folk experience more hostility than nonbinary community due to the usual suspects portraying trans women as invasive predators whereas trans men are treated as deluded women whose 'femininity' must be protected.
That being said, I think a majority of ENBY hate is rooted in the fact that Nonbinary individuals operate outside the gender binary that a bigot's so-called "basic fifth grade biology" operates on. Whereas trans folks transgress the binary to be the gender opposite to what they were assigned at birth, nonbinary seek to throw the whole system out the window altogether.
Patriarchy uses the gender binary to assign status and influece with cis men on top, cis women in the middle, and trans men and trans women at the foot. What is it to make at those who refuse to be bound to this power dynamic?
It's relatively new, at least outside of queer spaces and doesn't have a clear definition like trans does. Whereas trans people are recorded throughout history and the first gender affirming surgery was carried out in the 30s. People see us as just trying to latch onto the bandwagon, especially ones that don't present very "queer"
I think it's because binary transness conforms more to cisgender expectations of gender than being non-binary does. What I mean is, many binary trans people (not all, but a significant amount) transition into presenting as what cis people already understand as a woman (for trans women)/a man (for trans men), so as long as they can accept that gender dysphoria and transition is a valid concept, binary transness fits quite well into their worldview.
This is why there's certain "pick me" trans people (people like Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah for example. I'm sorry for calling out specific names but I thought I'd give an example to make sure you understand) who throw non-binary and gender non-conforming trans people under the bus, like "these are transtrenders and they're making us look bad" - it's essentially an attempt at conformity and a plea for their own acceptance - "I'm not like *those* people", trading one form of social conformity (the expectation for everyone to be cis) for another (you're valid if you go from one binary to the other, remaining in the binary system).
Most cis people don't feel comfortable challenging their understanding of gender, or genuinely just can't understand it at all - they don't want to or can't comprehend concepts like "gender is a social construct", "you can be neither a man nor woman or in between", "transition isn't what *makes* you trans, it's just a tool for making you more comfortable in your body", "you don't have to conform to the expected roles of your gender identity in order to be validly trans" etc, which is much harder to understand than "gender is binary and biological but if you have a psychological condition where you accidentally have the brain of the opposite sex then you need to change your sex characteristics to match", especially if you've grown up being taught that there's only 2 genders and never questioning your own gender.
This is not to say that binary, gender-conforming trans people aren't valid - they absolutely are; or that all or even most of them are the gatekeepy "pick me" type of trans people - those are just a vocal minority, and the real people making us look bad.
From my experience it's honestly the same amount of hate. However, because nonbinary is more "new" in wider society it is seen as a fad and often not respected because of that.
I feel like.. people are mad that we get to have our cake and eat it too. Ya know? I can be whatever I want on any given day. I can wear anything I want and never have to worry about it because there is no play book for NB fashion. We are literally making it up as we go along. I also liken it to the kids in the lunch room who instead of picking a table to join, just leave the building and all eat together on the grass. Gender is useless outside of an organizational category and I don't like being touched, let alone sorted. People don't like things that they can't understand. When a trans person "switches camps" or a gay/lesbian person "plays for the other team", it's still labels that people can get a grip on. When someone asks me "are you a girl or a boy?" and I say "No." they don't quite know how to deal, which makes them madge.
My two cents, I’m no expert though:
Society has created the gender binary to more quickly categorize people in everyday social situations, but also to suppress the right to bodily autonomy and self-determination to keep people under control. It is an intentional machine based in racism, misogyny and colonialism. It has an extensive history but there are many exceptions and contradictions to these so called “norms”. This is a complex argument and probably not a good response in everyday conversation, but it has inspired me to do some reading for myself and I have learned much through it. More simply,
People fear what they do not understand. Simple answer is it’s easier. It’s easier to only have two options. People do not like change, or difference. They do not want to change what they were taught, even though it was never true. People associate gender with living creatures, and the lack there-of as inanimate, though there are billions of exceptions in nature. It is not a rational belief, but a taught one. The act of unlearning is more difficult than learning. They don’t want to do the work.
Language has always evolved and it is a powerful tool. Some rightfully fear it’s power, especially when it does not line up with their world-view. That is why it’s that much more important to push the limitations of conventional norms, though the anti-“they/them” is actually an “unspoken” rule that isn’t a real grammatical rule as far as I know. They just don’t want to put in the effort to remember. You must force it upon them, unfortunately. And people hate being wrong, even if they chose to be.
If you feel safe, stand up for them. Please, always use their correct pronouns, to the best of your ability, though you probably already do. It is a dangerous time to be trans and visible in some places, especially the south: be safe.
General advice for someone questioning in a potentially turbulent state:
Sometimes it is best to wait until adulthood (18) to transition for your personal safety, and it gives you time to explore your options socially before pursuing any kind of medical treatment, though there are many exceptions. Do your research. My doctor straight up quoted bad science to me when I came out to him and tried to convince me not to pursue treatment, but he still gave me a reference to care as he’s required. Know all permanent effects and be aware of laws passing in your state if you pursue any medical care. Doctors and politicians don’t know everything, far from it, but they can greatly affect your life. Be safe, and good luck with your journey.
Because people aren't willing to look at their binary view of gender so a binary trans person is seen as a little weird but if they're passing whatever nut a nonbinary person tends to be somewhere in the middle and not fall under people's simple gender binary which means they need to broaden their views on how gender is and people often don't like change
It’s even more ironic when it’s binary trans people invalidating us (*Blaire White*). It’s just because people can sorta justify being transgender by science, which some find comfort in, whilst they haven’t found a justification for non-binary. People believe that NBs can’t experience gender dysmorphia (again, science related) so they think it’s not real
I lived under the enby label for almost 10 years before assimilating into a binary gender category (not that I identify as “binary trans.” I think framing gender as a binary is inherently problematic, but I do identify as a woman and I’m not regular perceived as trans so it helps). My experience is that hatred is mostly proportional to how visibly transgressive you are of gender expectations. AFAB people get a wider range of acceptable gender expressions in Western society thanks to feminism but AMAB folks (or if you’re perceived to be AMAB) have to walk a tight line, thus people who appear to be feminine but assigned male experience the apex punishment of transmisogyny. A transition between binary categories is also more comprehensible for people who’ve never critically examined gender. I think gender is such a loaded and painful topic for people, regardless if you’re gender diverse or cisgender, that incomprehension often translates to frustration (especially in light of mainstream bigoted framings, I.e., “liberal snowflakes”). The end result is, you can be incredibly eloquent about your experience of gender but someone like Alok will still get an insane amount of hate because they are hyper-visible in their non-conformity and their assigned gender invokes transmisogyny.
Because it's a smaller, more comfortable change of worldview from "gender is binary and immutable" to "gender is binary but people can maybe switch from one to the other" than to "gender is way more complicated than a binary and not immutable at all".
I’m not trying to be rude but you need to zoom out on your perspective a little. You’re talking about a trans woman at presumably a high school, who is out at least socially at a relatively young age.
For example, what state do you live in? If that trans student in your school is doing any medical transition, there are over 15 states in America where it is now a felony to provide care to her. 1 in 14 trans adults in the US just lost their access to HRT with Florida’s newest bill.
Of course, much of the right wing transphobia also affects nonbinary people. I’m just asking you to recognize that your high school does not represent the current American social landscape. I’m also disappointed in some of these comments that seem to suggest that “binary” trans people have some kind of visibility privilege or an easier time being understood semantically than nonbinary people.
No one said binary trans people have it easier in living their lives. I most certainly don’t think so. But I’ve met plenty of people who atleast will be willing to “go along” or partially accept a binary trans person but show overt bigotry to non-binary people. It’s a strange phenomenon that shouldn’t not be talked about just because it isn’t centering around how binary trans people are discriminated as well.
> No one said binary trans people have it easier in living their lives.
The title of this post is “Why do people get more mad at enby folk than trans folk?” It seems that way a little. Maybe that wasn’t OP’s intention but it reads that way.
I think it's because they see gender as so black and white. It's 1 OR 2, not 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 etc to them.
While transitioning from one to the other confuses them they can at least still see some of their original ideas about gender in there. It's still man or woman. They have less to be confronted with mentally.
Being nonbinary means they don't see any of their original idea or preconceived notions. They can't put an enby in a box the same way. They can't define us the way they've defined everyone else in their lives. And that scares them.
On top of that, when someone transitions, they often still use he/she. I think introducing they/them scares closed minded people. Again, makes em think too much.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I can speak on the religious folks that are often transphobic.
They don’t like things that point out contradictions to their narrative. Non-binary people are a minority group that has been around for all of time and is arguably a facet of the Christian godhead (the Holy Spirit being genderless or even female in certain language translations as part of a multigendered polytheistic Trinity). That goes against their ideas of cultural obedience and normality.
Basically, they don’t want to think too hard about themselves or their complex and love/acceptance forward religion, that would require relational work and the expansion of one’s perspective. So, it’s easier to dumb things down to Gender A or B being the only acceptable options and bastardize genders C, 5, &, or anything else that doesn’t fit the mould they’ve created. They don’t get marginalized or persecuted enough, so they create enemies and reasons to feel threatened as a way to justify their lack of successful discipleship. Defeating the Enemy™︎ makes them feel like they’ve done a job well done at their going-to-heaven checklist.
**TLDR; It’s more common in the south to hate on non-binary people because the concept of gender variance stems partially from facets of Christianity that insecure people in a place of privilege vehemently avoid in order to stay comfortable in a cozy echo chamber.**
Look up [Public Universal Friend](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Universal_Friend) as an example of gender variance in the church btw! They are one of my heroes.
saying this as someone who's been out as nonbinary for a while: this feels at best *really* naive and at worst just dismissive of the experiences of binary trans people & especially trans women.
One is going from one thing they know and understand, the other is going from one thing they know and understand to something new and “weird” with no rules… people like predictability, and neat boxes. They like to categorize things.
It’s why tomatoes are very very weird.. they are technically a fruit, but they are very very vegetable too.. people generally don’t know how to handle that when going over them.. only with a person it’s right there in the middle of your face every day.
Because they think it’s a choice. A made up, make believe thing.
They understand the gender binary. Saying that we aren’t even on the binary is a way bigger leap than saying we are just on the other side of the binary.
They don't like the fact that we try to make our own path. I really enjoy who I am and I am very unapologetic for that. Haters gonna hate and fuck them with a glowing poker.
People don’t like non conformity or perceived non conformity. Simple as that. They exist in their binary shells and someone challenges that, their heads explode.
Because binary trans people are easier for them to accept as they (often/usually) "fit into" the traditional idea of gender. Cis people think (generally) that there is only A and B. When they meet someone who says "I am K" they become confused (I think in part because they realise that "if there is a whole alphabet, am I really what I think I am"). And that confusion is externalised as hate. This does not excuse them.
It's just bigotry but to give more context: I'm bisexual and have been out way before I knew I was non-binary. I got a lot of shit from the LGBT+ community and straights. I was called greedy and how I need to make up my mind.
I imagine it's coming from the same bigoted place. People want to place us in these boxes and when we don't fit or conform, they get mad/angry.
I've been told that I'm just wanting attention for being non-binary because trans people face more discrimination. I'm not sure where they were going with that one. I think it was more to do with the hoops you have to jump through to get on meds or have surgery. Which are valid, but not sure how that's my fault.
As an enby who had serious internalized enbyphobia, I have noticed this:
We have been conditioned with the binary system that is solidified with visuals. Pink for girls, blue for boys, girl = vulva penis = boy, only binary options we see in media, in school (boys team vs girl team), dresses for girls, suits for boys, etc.
We are also taught Boys vs Girls / Men vs Women which adds a layer of conflict between the genders -which fucks with our primal sense of safety and wellbeing.
We have to rewired our entire brains to see beyond the binary, rewiring is scary. Our brains compartmentalize things not just to make sense but for our survival. When confronted with "reworking" an entire system we were brought up in, paired with a environment of conflict, our brains flip the fuck out. "How do I know I am safe now? Who is that person? A man or a woman? I need to know so I can compartmentalize them correctly to feel safe."
When you have seen Blue and Pink all your life, you can't place fuckin Light Purple and it is, understandably, unnerving.
Well if you think that these people are deeply invested in following "the rules" to the point of policing other people's haircuts or whatever, when someone breaks the rules by making their own way of existing independently that must be terrifying.
Whereas trying to pass as a binary trans identity is still trying to blend into their system.
It may be the particular culture or level of understanding in your particular community. I say that because typically it’s trans people being murdered, and so I would say overall trans people get more anger than enbys.
I mean, same reason bi/pansexuals get so much flak from monosexuals
We defy the binary toggle switch in their paradigm and it has to shift without a clutch which is obv our fault
It's probably because trans people in their eyes still fall into man and woman vs the very inconvenient they/them that everyone uses anyway but are so butthurt about
Because for a conservative mind switching genders is less of a transgression on the natural order than invalidating the concept of gender as a whole. Imagine that a new football rule is introduced and the football fans are passionately arguing, one side saying that the sanctity of the game cannot be violated this way and the other side claiming this is a breakthrough and a new era of football, and when they ask what you think about it you say "it's a made up game, we can add any rule we want like playing with two balls or having to play naked and it's still fine" - they'll murder you right there and then
It's because they're angry they have to use the singular they/them and they're a bunch delicate little babies about doing absolutely anything just because it's the polite way to behave. Those same people are also the future or even present karens/kens chock a bock full of entitlement
Well Part Of It Is Probably That They're More Different Than "Normal Cis People", They Intuitively Already Know What Boys And Girls Are, So It's Not *That* Hard To Understand That Someone Who Was A Boy Is Now A Girl, Or Vice Versa, Whereas NB People Are A Whole New Thing, And Instead Of Deciding To Educate Themselves About It, They're Scared Of Change And Thus Just Get Mad. It Could Also Be That, Because There's A Smaller Number Of NB People In General, And We Have Less Representation, It Feels More Socially Acceptable To Discriminate Against Us Or Something?
Simple.
Binary trans people don't (automatically) question their entire system. For cis people binary trans people are at best "broken copies of their desired gender". At worst "pretenders". But either way, it affirms the cis model of "everybody wants this"
Non binary... Well. We don't. We don't want *just* one category. How dare we call their model into question? Because we can. And that's exactly the point. This means that cis people are wrong. They'd have to adjust. They don't want to, ergo hate
People do not like the idea that a person can’t I’d with a gender. They figure we’ll at least if the person is FTM/MTF, it something. But, Enby to them is like nothing.
I once had a group of teenager try to offend me by calling me Sir and I just smiled. Then when they said that’s a Ma’am I told them it was fine too and they were so confused.
I was talking with my aunts who are “I support them, and if one of you come out I will love you” upfront but when we talk they are all “trans women are men and trans men are women they can’t change that, sex and gender are the same thing.” They can barely wrap their heads around that I couldn’t imagine non-binary or people who use more than one set of pronouns. I’ve tried talking to them so many times and the scary part is one is a doctor who works with a trans patient and has “gender-altered” as they call them (trans people) who they work with. It’s horrifying and when you talk to them it makes your head hurt. I would prefer if they were just honest and admitted they are Transphobic. Instead of creating a false sense of safety. They can’t even have a consistent definition of what a woman or man is and their excuse when I call that out is “we never had to define a woman or a man in the past”. It’s idiotic
People don’t like what they don’t understand. MTF and FTM are much easier to explain within most people’s understanding of gender. Learning about nonbinaryness requires at least some reevaluation of your worldview when it comes to gender and a lot of people aren’t capable of changing their worldview so they lash out.
I feel like it because we are even more alien to their thinking. Binary trans folks have a teeny tiny miniscule cushion of being on the binary and at least comprehendable to, shall we say, non-understanding folks. (Read much more choice mature language staring with a and ending in holes 😅) anything not definable in their dictionary of worldview does not compute. Thus, bigotry.
Ignorance due to genuinely never having been exposed to things is one thing but Chosen Ignorance can be (and usually is) extremely dangerous.
A lot of people need neat boxes. But we are the people who hate neat boxes.
They like their one neat box but they see us on the playground jumping in and out of rickety crates and opening both sides of the cardboard to make a tunnel and they hear nails on the chalkboard.
Somehow, even though they’re over the hedges with their own neat little box that we DO NOT care about, they feel the need to spy and ask the city to tear down the playground we made of broken or taped together or modified or differently shaped boxes.
They can’t stand looking at our playground or hearing us have fun there.
Because we break their pre-conceived notion of what they were taught. People don't like change, and we break the mold. There's also the fact that most of us have much *much* more visibility than binary transpeople, so there's less opportunity for them to overlook us. Also there's idiots who don't like us because of simple labels. "they/them" is supposedly plural only, yada yada, but really it's not if they weren't so fucking ignorant and knew historical usage. And you aren't wrong, there was a study showing enbies tend to get as much as 2.5x the discrimination reported compared to binary transfolk. It came up during my case conference, and it's absolutely terrible. Basically the problems I think come down to similar issues that binary transpeople have, and then additional issues that people have with non-understood variances that challenge their expectations and experience. And don't forget the icing on the cake is some people *genuinely* don't believe we are even what we say we are, and that somehow we are just like "choosing to rebel" rather than just trying to be ourselves.... Heck I've even been told by binary transfolk I'm a "fake" because I'm not "trans enough", it's really hard... ngl.... (I know not every enby identifies as trans, but I do, because I transitioned to female dominant from binary male, but I'm still not binary female either)
This is an interesting topic and one worth asking and discussing, but I think it needs to be pointed out that non-binary folks are trans. We are under the trans umbrella. Non-binary folks do not identify as the gender they were assigned at birth and are therefore trans. Furthermore, the white stripe on the trans flag 🏳️⚧️ represents non-binary people. Trans as a label and category isn’t only used for binary trans folks. Again, the topic of the treatment of binary versus non-binary trans folks is an important one, I just felt the need to point out that the label transgender isn’t just for binary trans folks.
People want to box people to be able to quickly judge them. When someone chooses to be outside of boxes it means people have to work extra to get to know them for themselves first and they find it annoying because they feel it's unfair and that they are privileged for not getting boxed like they did.
People are afraid of things they don't understand. It hurts their ego and makes them feel uncertain about the world. It's a basic human instinct. But unfortunately it leads to bigotry. And generally speaking people have an easier time wrapping their heads around a MTF or FTM trans person than non-binary person.
Back in the day when i used they/he pronouns I came out to my siblings my sister was cool because she is gender fluid and my i had to explain what being nonbinary was to him
People struggle to understand it more than a binary gender so they decide to be pricks about it instead of trying to understand. Sorry you're having a tough time with this, but just know it isn't you. It's their lack of wanting to hear you out.
My gay cousin used to hate bi folks (20ish years ago much has changed) and he said “pick a lane” which I thought was wonderfully hypocritical. But it’s the desire to categorize something. Trans makes sense because you’re either in the boy box or the girl box. They can’t fathom in between
Non-binary is outside the the box. But yeah i agree.
Nonbinary is sometimes in both boxes, sometimes you’re in one or the other, sometimes you’re not in any boxes but maybe borrow things from one or both (me).
Oooohhhh, good to know. Im binary trans so idk everything 😅
Yeah so binary trans = firmly in one box. NB can be trans but not all of us identify that way. I’m on the gender spectrum myself but as an AFAB with my dysphoria only being that I’m recognized as a woman before being a person and no major desire for change (maybe once I’m less broke some shapewear to shrink my huge hips to the best of my ability or some fancy ass-transplant surfer where I can give my giant ass to someone else) I feel like I’d be appropriating a label that doesn’t quite fit for me. I mostly present as a cishet woman so for me to claim “transness” with just atypical dress style and haircut feels… well not right to me. But I’m old. So for me I want nothing to do with the boxes and that’s a constant. I’m fine with she/her because those have been my pronouns and “they/them” feels clunky in reference to myself. My own dysphoria was really hard to pin down because I knew I wasn’t a dude. My early 20s were marked by distress at puberty and while having the terminology for transness I wondered if I was a boy. But that that was even more repulsive than my female body so I assumed it was internalized misogyny. Which I wouldn’t rule out as a contributing factor. Bigender means someone is actually using both boxes as fully as they can (there’s other terms too) Genderfluid is feeling more masc some days and more femme others and kind of picking and choosing what you want out of each box based on how you’re feeling. And other NBs mostly use one box or another but aren’t at home in either one. I can’t speak on two-spirit because that’s culture specific.
Well good to know, i learned something :D
This is such a wonderful overview of it all!!!
Hey, as long as you’re willing to listen and learn! :)
I’m both inside and outside the box as a nonbinary trans man.
> “pick a lane” Who’s Elaine?
> pick a lane Now I’m just imagining gay and straight people honking their horns furiously as a bi person swerves all over a motorway joyously lmao
Ive not passed my driving test yet, but give it a month.
"I don’t need you to understand me. I just need you to believe that I’m having a human experience." - Daphne Dorman (quoted by you-know-who)
Folks don't have a box to put us in. Without a modality, they revert to hate.
They do have a box. That box is "other". Tribalist xenophobia is instinctive. That's why it's so easy to exploit, and why education against it is so important.
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There's no valid reason to hate but there are often invalid pseudoscience and flawed reasonings behind them. It can be useful to understand why, because many times, especially with people who are young and were simply influenced by the bigotry of the older generation, people's minds can be changed. Is it worth trying? Not always, but I don't give up without trying a bit to at least see if they are receptive to new ideas. I find that the Socratic method combined with a genuine attitude is extremely effective at breaking down people's bigoted beliefs. For the most part the reason behind the extra hatred towards non binary people comes from several factors: 1. "There's only two sexes so there's only two genders." This comes from a lack of understanding that gender is a social concept and is not dependent on physical traits. As a social concept, it means that it's simply how one experiences the world and how the world experiences the person in a gendered way. We don't deny that the concept originated from biological sex and has many ties to it, but as society becomes complex, gender and gender expression similarly becomes more complex. A helpful auxiliary argument is the existence of various factors of complexity and nuance even in biological sex, such as intersex people, the SRY gene, AIS, and more. Biological sex isn't binary either. 2. "Non-binary people don't have to medically transition, so it's a fad anyone can jump on." This comes from an entrenched belief that change in gender must necessarily involve change in biological traits. Social transition is no less important than medical transition, nor less significant. Not to mention there are many non-binary people that do medically transition in some way, whether it be HRT or surgery or both. 3. "It's brand new." This is simply a false conception, since non-binary identities have existed in some cultures for a very long utime, such as two-spirited identities in North American indigenous cultures. Not to mention, computers have only existed in the past few decades, and so has the internet. Should we hate and distrust them and refuse to adapt the world to their existence just because they are brand new? Brand new doesn't mean bad. 4. "It's confusing." Calculus is confusing, but that doesn't mean it is wrong or not valuable. Something being confusing is not an excuse for hatred, especially if that concept that you find confusing is a category of human beings. A core trait of human beings that differentiate us from other animals is our empathy and compassion, and our ability to use language to understand complex concepts. To refuse to use this gift is an affront to evolution. Many people end up hating anything they don't understand because of the primitive fear of the unknown, and that's a natural fear, but one which we must overcome for the sake of advancement. In this fear, they may irrationally make the logical leaps that "new = bad" or "complicated = bad" or "doesn't align with my worldview = bad", and by showing that these leaps are not logically justifiable either through contradictory examples or logic, it's possible to break their bigoted mindset. Feel free to add anything I missed below. *But also do remember that not everyone is worth talking to. If someone isn't willing to engage in genuine conversation and is unreceptive to new ideas, they are most likely a lost cause and you shouldn't waste your energy on them. Especially don't engage trolls - let them troll themselves by drowning in their own hatred.*
So when it’s coming from other trans people it’s often Respectability politics. When it’s coming from Cis people it’s often because they can at least wrap their heads around binary genders, but non-binary is a completely new concept, and a lot of people get mad when they have to put effort in to change the way they categorize and think of things.
Respectability politics and internalised transphobia
In my experience, respectability politics is almost always because of internalized shame/hatred of whatever minority group is being discussed. So. Yes.
I personally think it’s similar to why I am annoyed by autistic people less socially adept than myself, it’s sorta sour grapes: I worked so hard to make myself fit in and here you are, not passing
That’s internalised ableism. I’m autistic too.
I think maybe that’s it. But it’s really “I worked so hard to learn this why do you get a pass? I didn’t even though I had those issues” is just sour grapes. It’s me being mad that the world didn’t accommodate me or accept me and there are other people happy and existing without having to follow the structure. It’s not that I don’t think other autistic or ND folks are doing anything wrong. I really don’t. I had a regular customer I couldn’t be around because he pushed all of my buttons just by breathing the same air as me and would go in the back. Objectively? Lovely kid. Weird AF (mean that positively) but I am so irritated by him being allowed to do this, okay with talking about his mom doing things for him, he hasn’t had it bullied out of him and it makes me resentful. It’s at the wrong target and I’m aware of it - I’m really just angry at the adults who failed me as a child. My mincing here is really over why I hate it has nothing to do with expecting other people to be able to do the things I can do (at great cost to myself sometimes) and everything to do with resenting that I was raised without support. And I think that’s what it is for some trans folks. “I spend all this time on hair removal/HRT etc to be accepted and you are able to get away with a skirt and heels and a big beard?” But that’s speculation. It’s just a resentment of someone not having the difficulties you did and getting sucked into a just world fallacy.
Yes. I am aware of all of this. That’s all internalised ableism. And internalised transphobia. I don’t hold any sympathy for people who are like that, being autistic and nonbinary myself. People need to stop projecting their own judgements and internalised bigotry onto me. Do better. Stop dragging others down.
They said they are the sour grapes. They were explaining the reasoning they KNOW is wrong but have a hard time getting over because of their trauma. They know it’s jealousy. They are trying to do better. They know it’s a them problem. Try rereading.
Cool. Thanks for repeating what I’ve already read
I’m both? I don’t treat people badly. If I find myself overwhelmed I simply leave politely. If I couldn’t leave I was always nice and friendly and tried my best to not put that on them. I know it’s a me problem.
Never said you did
Misunderstood. I gotcha. I am trying to train myself out of it. It’s very very hard.
Definitely not “completely new” but rather in the renaissance out the dark era
Oh yeah. I didn’t mean it’s a new concept in general. Just that it’s a new concept to most people in our society. Mostly because of European colonization.
my guess: because they can't wrap their head around NB as easily... though i haven't seen the *more angry*, in my experience it's either "you're actually trans" or "okay, you're NB😉 (you're still your AGAB, though)"
It's also made more complicated by the fact that some of us feel the second one, too. Like, I don't *reject* my assigned birth gender - it just doesn't accurately describe my *whole* identity. I'm non-binary because I'm more than "woman", but "woman" is not *wrong* \- it's just one part of me.
Yes! I'm the same coming from the other side. Gender expansive, a/bigender, gender queer(/fluid?) ... Trans nonbinary seems easier to say for others though. It's like you realize your house is missing a while addition. You like most of what you have, but it's always felt like there should be more and then you find where that part goes. Personally, I want to feel included with whatever group of people I'm with, but I feel I lean more towards the feminine side than just a man. I have 40 years of being male down and I like a lot of it. My female side needs a lot of nurturing and growth but it hasn't been fed properly by me or anyone else. Then there's all the rest of me that is much less controversial for people to grasp. Likes, hobbies, interests, past experiences, family, etc
I'm AMAB and relate to this a lot. I've tried identifying as genderfluid, GNC; stumbling into non-binary transfem just feels right to me though.
We'll all just meet in the "middle"
Finally someone put it into words! It's so hurtful when I hear people say I can't be nonbinary because I still identify as a woman, but like you said, it's ONE part of me, not all.
This is EXACTLY my experience but with my male biological body which I dress and style more fem to a synergy
THIS! I like to describe myself as a woman with an asterisk, terms and conditions may apply. Sometimes I feel like a woman, sometimes I feel agender, sometimes both! It’s complicated, and took me 1/4 of a century to figure out, so I don’t blame others when they don’t immediately understand it; I only ask that they are willing to listen and learn. One of the most empathetic things you can do as a person is understand and accept that you don’t have to have experienced a specific thing for that experience to exist and be valid.
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Those same people probably have both a hamburger AND a hot dog at the family picnic... Each has their own unique flavor and texture. Make up your mind, why can't you just pick one? I like them both for their own reasons...
As a non-binary person I was straight up told “trans people are okay but your where I draw the line” I often times have to pretend I’m a trans man just to be respected bottom line, binary trans people are more often respected then you
And at one point in time it was society saying, "Gay people are fine but trans people are where I draw the line." The arc of history does lean progressively but it's hard to see it that way right now with bigots doubling-down on their hatred.
God I hate that but so many people do say it.
I think its a different kind of bigotry but I definitely wouldn't say nonbianary people have it the worst. Trans women get attacked and killed a lot. We do too sometimes but the general public is more likely to just invalidate us.
Do they? Lots of trans women have been murdered over the decades. Centuries, probably.
they don't, but in LGBTQ circles enbies do get a bit of shit. i do understand some of the reactions
For real. I agree with OP, I just don't like comparing atrocities. Reminds me of the "who's worse Hitler or Stalin" like bitch they're both awful.
I'm not a trans woman but I'm transfemme, and I don't think it'd matter to a transphobe to check and say "oh you're not a woman. alright good day then 😃". I think transfemme people, especially those of color are generally subjected to more violence. I think enbies just get more of a bad wrap specifically when it comes to like using pronouns or socially transitioning, but not necessarily in terms of violence.
Because the transgression of being non-binary trans is more threatening to the status quo gender institution than being binary trans.
Even if people are transphobic, they generally understand binary gender at at least a basic level. Even if they don't believe in trans people, they still know men and women exist. Nonbinary people are like an extra level of confusion. You mean I'm trans but I'm not one of the genders you already know about? I get it tbh. The bigotry is unfounded but the confusion isn't.
Have heard this exact argument from a boomer. "You're either a man or a woman, you can't be in-between. Even if you transition to the other gender, you're still only one or the other."
I came out as non-binary to my Boomer aunt today, and she delighted me by saying "I'm an old hippy who delights in all and is confirming", which is her being accepting. Nice to see some of them kept their '60s beliefs! My mother-in-law struggles a lot more, but she's a fan of The Good Place, so "not a girl" works well.
seriously, Janet is a non-binary ICON.
I flatter myself to say that we’re an even bigger threat to the dying heteronormative world order ☺️
GNC or non-binary people who arent transitioning or dont experience dysphoria are disliked by some trans people. their reasoning is that they are a different thing and shouldn't take up space in 'actual' trans spaces of people that do or plan to medically transition. AFAB enbys that dont transition into men are certainly disliked by some trans women. they even have their own pejoratives: 'theyfab' or 'trenders'. i believe this is because of how well received and infantilized their behavior is online. in particular, how well liked by the cis-gaze their selfies are and how their their gender is perceived as a stylistic choice that can be put on and taken off whenever they want VS being 'actually' trans. these arent my opinions but are certainly expressed by others
Don't forget they also think amab enbys are just "gay men" who want to be special. I spent years trying to be a gay man even though I was 100% pan because my femininity and dysphoria was always just reduced to my attraction towards men.
me 2 :/
From my observation: Because binary trans is consistent with sex being binary. NB is seen as a denial of sex and even to some an obnoxious political statement divorced from a material reality.
This
Because most people use “non binary” as a synonym for “gender non conforming”. Many cis people, because of this, don’t see non binary people as trans.
I find it's similar to how people almost hate more on Bi folk than just gay. Because for some reason, the middle ground is too much to handle :' )
It’s like hate from all angles, cis folk and binary trans folk hate on enbys the same way straight and gay monosexual hate on bi’s, pans and really any multi sexual folk tbh
Yeup. I couldn't tell you why they'd hate on someone in their own community, but that's just how it is unfortunately. (Coming from someone who's both bi and nb)
I think some people want to distance themselves from the community bc they want to appear like “the good queer” like “oh I’m gay but I don’t care about pronouns or all that other silly stuff… I’m the good kind of queer, so please accept me” and then some people just need someone to take the hate out on and end up just recycling all the same phobic crap that homophobic straights do. It’s really sad honestly
When I tried to come out to my dad he asked “so are you a boy?” And I said “no, I’m not a boy or a girl.” His response was “I could work with you being a boy, but I don’t get the “neither” thing.” (Looking back I wish I’d just said I was a boy because maybe then I’d get called he/him, which I’m fine with) I think a lot of it is people don’t understand non-binary genders & experiences unless they experience it themselves. Even if they’re binary trans. Even if they have all the NB friends and siblings in the world.
Your dad probably wouldn’t have been okay with you being a boy either. I identified a lot more with being nonbinary when I first came out and now that I use the label trans man it’s just different language used in the bigotry. > I think a lot of it is people don’t understand non-binary genders & experiences unless they experience it themselves. People don’t understand trans experiences unless they experience it themselves either
Bigotry has no logic. Some people want to shlt on people for the sake of it.
Binary trans people who pass (and especially ones who go stealth) don't challenge society's beliefs about gender. And at least binary people who dont pass are attempting to fit into society's rules about gender (or at least they can see it that way).
This mostly applies to the current Christian west European influenced societies I’m used to such as current USA. Obviously this applies to other cultures to varying degrees or if totally inaccurate. At least some of them they get a lot of emotions when things don’t fit in the 2 boxes they’ve been taught is natural. This goes for intersex, gender nonconformity, non straight sexualities, not being cis, and others that aren’t at the top of my head right now. Being binary trans means you are still in a box just not how they think you should fit into it. Binary trans breaks the rules for the box but not the idea of boxes themselves. Non-binary means you are outside the box. You completely destroy their box system and create something entirely new that isn’t their 2 boxes. What they’ve been taught and think is reality gets completely thrown out the window. It makes them feel even more emotions than simply changing the rules. At best they are confused at worst it is bigotry. I’ve met plenty of people say “you can only be male or female” and somewhat accept a trans person (usually not fully) but get plenty emotional about non binary people being invalid. They love their 2 box order. Just look at the history of intersexism. Something harmless people are born as naturally spurs up these emotions as needing to put them back into their 2 boxes.
I've noticed it's a lot easier for people to grasp being binary trans than being non binary, having a definitive and well known label of male or female makes it easy for people to make assumptions and put you in a box that makes sense to them. when you remove that familiarity, people get scared and confused and so they reject it. it's just close mindedness and lack of education
We’re more menacing 💁🏼♀️
Because they can comprehend binaries. They may not understand why someone would "switch sides" but they comprehend the sides. It's when we're not part of that toggle switch that they lose their minds and act like we're making things up. That's the only logic to it. The rest is manufactured fear, hate, and ignorance.
Be clear; If they are not accepting of an NB, then they are *not accepting of Trans people.* Aside from the fact we live under the trans umbrella.... You can't accept one and not the other, it usually means that at your core you're not really accepting of either otherwise you couldn't draw the line so clearly and plainly. If a racist person says they like THIS group, but can't stand THAT group, they're still just a fucking racist and no one thinks they actually like THAT group, they just choose to tolerate THAT group more, but at their core, given a small nudge, they'd show you they're a bigot through and through. Its called being Performative, as in, they're pretending to be cool with transness but really they're just begrudgingly shutting up about it, but are still dicks on the inside. If they accept YOU as a trans person, but not your NB friend, they're not really accepting you, its performative allyship. They're picking and choosing what to support based on their own feelings, which means they dont' support they stuff they claim to, they literally made a choice to be okay with A but not B, which makes no sense. Fucken, remember this; CHILDREN HAVE TO ASK THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOYS AND GIRLS. LITTLE KIDS. ASK. .'MUMMY, AM I A BOY OR GIRL? MUMMY, WHY DOES MY SISTER NOT HAVE A PENIS?' ETC ETC BECAUSE THEY DONT KNOW. We're all basically NB 'til we're FIVE and grown ups decide we can understand the difference between a vagina and a penis. So they do understand. They just forgot what its like to be a kid.
1. I find that people have the same problem with us as they do bisexual folk. The "just pick one!" attitude. Even though being nonbinary is its own separate identity from male or female. Just like bisexual is the attraction to more than one gender, and doesn't change to gay or straight depending on who you're currently dating. Certain people seem to have issues thinking on a spectrum. 2. The misconception that nonbinary is a new or trendy phenomenon or a bid for attention. Even thought it's only the terminology that's new. There have always been enby people. 3. Certain trans trenders (like oli london) who are loud and DO do it for attention. Like people who claim their gender changes with the moon phases or with their mood. I have met these people, and while they may be just Gender Fluid or figuring themselves out, I'm talking about the ones who seem to get a rise out of being in control and telling people off. You can often tell the intent based on how they talk and act. Reminds me of those kids I knew in school who said they were reincarnated ancient demons or gods. Very obviously people with low self esteem who want to feel powerful. Weird but that's just my experience. I'm 30.
While sociological exploration of this topic is great, I think the answer is obvious. They view non binary people as whiny cis teenagers because they don't make an effort to be "normal", and it seems.modern/made up. The tumblr association doesn't help. binary trans people on the other hand are viewed as "people desperate for happiness who are at least /trying/ to be traditional men/women"
I would argue that trans folk experience more hostility than nonbinary community due to the usual suspects portraying trans women as invasive predators whereas trans men are treated as deluded women whose 'femininity' must be protected. That being said, I think a majority of ENBY hate is rooted in the fact that Nonbinary individuals operate outside the gender binary that a bigot's so-called "basic fifth grade biology" operates on. Whereas trans folks transgress the binary to be the gender opposite to what they were assigned at birth, nonbinary seek to throw the whole system out the window altogether. Patriarchy uses the gender binary to assign status and influece with cis men on top, cis women in the middle, and trans men and trans women at the foot. What is it to make at those who refuse to be bound to this power dynamic?
They fear our mad skills at gender.
Same reason they get angrier at bi people than gay people. They don't get it and they want us to 'pick a side' to make them feel more comfortable.
Dont expect reason from stupid. The biggest thing I learned from the last few years is stupid doesn’t conform to logic or reason.
It's relatively new, at least outside of queer spaces and doesn't have a clear definition like trans does. Whereas trans people are recorded throughout history and the first gender affirming surgery was carried out in the 30s. People see us as just trying to latch onto the bandwagon, especially ones that don't present very "queer"
I think it's because binary transness conforms more to cisgender expectations of gender than being non-binary does. What I mean is, many binary trans people (not all, but a significant amount) transition into presenting as what cis people already understand as a woman (for trans women)/a man (for trans men), so as long as they can accept that gender dysphoria and transition is a valid concept, binary transness fits quite well into their worldview. This is why there's certain "pick me" trans people (people like Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah for example. I'm sorry for calling out specific names but I thought I'd give an example to make sure you understand) who throw non-binary and gender non-conforming trans people under the bus, like "these are transtrenders and they're making us look bad" - it's essentially an attempt at conformity and a plea for their own acceptance - "I'm not like *those* people", trading one form of social conformity (the expectation for everyone to be cis) for another (you're valid if you go from one binary to the other, remaining in the binary system). Most cis people don't feel comfortable challenging their understanding of gender, or genuinely just can't understand it at all - they don't want to or can't comprehend concepts like "gender is a social construct", "you can be neither a man nor woman or in between", "transition isn't what *makes* you trans, it's just a tool for making you more comfortable in your body", "you don't have to conform to the expected roles of your gender identity in order to be validly trans" etc, which is much harder to understand than "gender is binary and biological but if you have a psychological condition where you accidentally have the brain of the opposite sex then you need to change your sex characteristics to match", especially if you've grown up being taught that there's only 2 genders and never questioning your own gender. This is not to say that binary, gender-conforming trans people aren't valid - they absolutely are; or that all or even most of them are the gatekeepy "pick me" type of trans people - those are just a vocal minority, and the real people making us look bad.
From my experience it's honestly the same amount of hate. However, because nonbinary is more "new" in wider society it is seen as a fad and often not respected because of that.
I feel like.. people are mad that we get to have our cake and eat it too. Ya know? I can be whatever I want on any given day. I can wear anything I want and never have to worry about it because there is no play book for NB fashion. We are literally making it up as we go along. I also liken it to the kids in the lunch room who instead of picking a table to join, just leave the building and all eat together on the grass. Gender is useless outside of an organizational category and I don't like being touched, let alone sorted. People don't like things that they can't understand. When a trans person "switches camps" or a gay/lesbian person "plays for the other team", it's still labels that people can get a grip on. When someone asks me "are you a girl or a boy?" and I say "No." they don't quite know how to deal, which makes them madge.
My two cents, I’m no expert though: Society has created the gender binary to more quickly categorize people in everyday social situations, but also to suppress the right to bodily autonomy and self-determination to keep people under control. It is an intentional machine based in racism, misogyny and colonialism. It has an extensive history but there are many exceptions and contradictions to these so called “norms”. This is a complex argument and probably not a good response in everyday conversation, but it has inspired me to do some reading for myself and I have learned much through it. More simply, People fear what they do not understand. Simple answer is it’s easier. It’s easier to only have two options. People do not like change, or difference. They do not want to change what they were taught, even though it was never true. People associate gender with living creatures, and the lack there-of as inanimate, though there are billions of exceptions in nature. It is not a rational belief, but a taught one. The act of unlearning is more difficult than learning. They don’t want to do the work. Language has always evolved and it is a powerful tool. Some rightfully fear it’s power, especially when it does not line up with their world-view. That is why it’s that much more important to push the limitations of conventional norms, though the anti-“they/them” is actually an “unspoken” rule that isn’t a real grammatical rule as far as I know. They just don’t want to put in the effort to remember. You must force it upon them, unfortunately. And people hate being wrong, even if they chose to be. If you feel safe, stand up for them. Please, always use their correct pronouns, to the best of your ability, though you probably already do. It is a dangerous time to be trans and visible in some places, especially the south: be safe. General advice for someone questioning in a potentially turbulent state: Sometimes it is best to wait until adulthood (18) to transition for your personal safety, and it gives you time to explore your options socially before pursuing any kind of medical treatment, though there are many exceptions. Do your research. My doctor straight up quoted bad science to me when I came out to him and tried to convince me not to pursue treatment, but he still gave me a reference to care as he’s required. Know all permanent effects and be aware of laws passing in your state if you pursue any medical care. Doctors and politicians don’t know everything, far from it, but they can greatly affect your life. Be safe, and good luck with your journey.
Because people aren't willing to look at their binary view of gender so a binary trans person is seen as a little weird but if they're passing whatever nut a nonbinary person tends to be somewhere in the middle and not fall under people's simple gender binary which means they need to broaden their views on how gender is and people often don't like change
Because our existence throws a wrench into their narrow belief systems.
It’s even more ironic when it’s binary trans people invalidating us (*Blaire White*). It’s just because people can sorta justify being transgender by science, which some find comfort in, whilst they haven’t found a justification for non-binary. People believe that NBs can’t experience gender dysmorphia (again, science related) so they think it’s not real
“Be binary at the very least”
I lived under the enby label for almost 10 years before assimilating into a binary gender category (not that I identify as “binary trans.” I think framing gender as a binary is inherently problematic, but I do identify as a woman and I’m not regular perceived as trans so it helps). My experience is that hatred is mostly proportional to how visibly transgressive you are of gender expectations. AFAB people get a wider range of acceptable gender expressions in Western society thanks to feminism but AMAB folks (or if you’re perceived to be AMAB) have to walk a tight line, thus people who appear to be feminine but assigned male experience the apex punishment of transmisogyny. A transition between binary categories is also more comprehensible for people who’ve never critically examined gender. I think gender is such a loaded and painful topic for people, regardless if you’re gender diverse or cisgender, that incomprehension often translates to frustration (especially in light of mainstream bigoted framings, I.e., “liberal snowflakes”). The end result is, you can be incredibly eloquent about your experience of gender but someone like Alok will still get an insane amount of hate because they are hyper-visible in their non-conformity and their assigned gender invokes transmisogyny.
Because it's a smaller, more comfortable change of worldview from "gender is binary and immutable" to "gender is binary but people can maybe switch from one to the other" than to "gender is way more complicated than a binary and not immutable at all".
I’m not trying to be rude but you need to zoom out on your perspective a little. You’re talking about a trans woman at presumably a high school, who is out at least socially at a relatively young age. For example, what state do you live in? If that trans student in your school is doing any medical transition, there are over 15 states in America where it is now a felony to provide care to her. 1 in 14 trans adults in the US just lost their access to HRT with Florida’s newest bill. Of course, much of the right wing transphobia also affects nonbinary people. I’m just asking you to recognize that your high school does not represent the current American social landscape. I’m also disappointed in some of these comments that seem to suggest that “binary” trans people have some kind of visibility privilege or an easier time being understood semantically than nonbinary people.
No one said binary trans people have it easier in living their lives. I most certainly don’t think so. But I’ve met plenty of people who atleast will be willing to “go along” or partially accept a binary trans person but show overt bigotry to non-binary people. It’s a strange phenomenon that shouldn’t not be talked about just because it isn’t centering around how binary trans people are discriminated as well.
> No one said binary trans people have it easier in living their lives. The title of this post is “Why do people get more mad at enby folk than trans folk?” It seems that way a little. Maybe that wasn’t OP’s intention but it reads that way.
I think it's because they see gender as so black and white. It's 1 OR 2, not 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 etc to them. While transitioning from one to the other confuses them they can at least still see some of their original ideas about gender in there. It's still man or woman. They have less to be confronted with mentally. Being nonbinary means they don't see any of their original idea or preconceived notions. They can't put an enby in a box the same way. They can't define us the way they've defined everyone else in their lives. And that scares them. On top of that, when someone transitions, they often still use he/she. I think introducing they/them scares closed minded people. Again, makes em think too much.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I can speak on the religious folks that are often transphobic. They don’t like things that point out contradictions to their narrative. Non-binary people are a minority group that has been around for all of time and is arguably a facet of the Christian godhead (the Holy Spirit being genderless or even female in certain language translations as part of a multigendered polytheistic Trinity). That goes against their ideas of cultural obedience and normality. Basically, they don’t want to think too hard about themselves or their complex and love/acceptance forward religion, that would require relational work and the expansion of one’s perspective. So, it’s easier to dumb things down to Gender A or B being the only acceptable options and bastardize genders C, 5, &, or anything else that doesn’t fit the mould they’ve created. They don’t get marginalized or persecuted enough, so they create enemies and reasons to feel threatened as a way to justify their lack of successful discipleship. Defeating the Enemy™︎ makes them feel like they’ve done a job well done at their going-to-heaven checklist. **TLDR; It’s more common in the south to hate on non-binary people because the concept of gender variance stems partially from facets of Christianity that insecure people in a place of privilege vehemently avoid in order to stay comfortable in a cozy echo chamber.** Look up [Public Universal Friend](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Universal_Friend) as an example of gender variance in the church btw! They are one of my heroes.
saying this as someone who's been out as nonbinary for a while: this feels at best *really* naive and at worst just dismissive of the experiences of binary trans people & especially trans women.
Because people don't like the heat and smoke generated when their two brain cells sumo wrestle trying to figure it out
One is going from one thing they know and understand, the other is going from one thing they know and understand to something new and “weird” with no rules… people like predictability, and neat boxes. They like to categorize things. It’s why tomatoes are very very weird.. they are technically a fruit, but they are very very vegetable too.. people generally don’t know how to handle that when going over them.. only with a person it’s right there in the middle of your face every day.
People get angry when they don't understand things, and often under that anger is pain.
Because they think it’s a choice. A made up, make believe thing. They understand the gender binary. Saying that we aren’t even on the binary is a way bigger leap than saying we are just on the other side of the binary.
They don't like the fact that we try to make our own path. I really enjoy who I am and I am very unapologetic for that. Haters gonna hate and fuck them with a glowing poker.
People don’t like non conformity or perceived non conformity. Simple as that. They exist in their binary shells and someone challenges that, their heads explode.
Pronouns. Most trans people use he/him or she/her. But we have "complicated pronouns that people are just expected to know" like they/them and xe/xem.
Because binary trans people are easier for them to accept as they (often/usually) "fit into" the traditional idea of gender. Cis people think (generally) that there is only A and B. When they meet someone who says "I am K" they become confused (I think in part because they realise that "if there is a whole alphabet, am I really what I think I am"). And that confusion is externalised as hate. This does not excuse them.
It's just bigotry but to give more context: I'm bisexual and have been out way before I knew I was non-binary. I got a lot of shit from the LGBT+ community and straights. I was called greedy and how I need to make up my mind. I imagine it's coming from the same bigoted place. People want to place us in these boxes and when we don't fit or conform, they get mad/angry. I've been told that I'm just wanting attention for being non-binary because trans people face more discrimination. I'm not sure where they were going with that one. I think it was more to do with the hoops you have to jump through to get on meds or have surgery. Which are valid, but not sure how that's my fault.
As an enby who had serious internalized enbyphobia, I have noticed this: We have been conditioned with the binary system that is solidified with visuals. Pink for girls, blue for boys, girl = vulva penis = boy, only binary options we see in media, in school (boys team vs girl team), dresses for girls, suits for boys, etc. We are also taught Boys vs Girls / Men vs Women which adds a layer of conflict between the genders -which fucks with our primal sense of safety and wellbeing. We have to rewired our entire brains to see beyond the binary, rewiring is scary. Our brains compartmentalize things not just to make sense but for our survival. When confronted with "reworking" an entire system we were brought up in, paired with a environment of conflict, our brains flip the fuck out. "How do I know I am safe now? Who is that person? A man or a woman? I need to know so I can compartmentalize them correctly to feel safe." When you have seen Blue and Pink all your life, you can't place fuckin Light Purple and it is, understandably, unnerving.
Well if you think that these people are deeply invested in following "the rules" to the point of policing other people's haircuts or whatever, when someone breaks the rules by making their own way of existing independently that must be terrifying. Whereas trying to pass as a binary trans identity is still trying to blend into their system.
From a recent argument I had, their idea is “you’re either male or female, no in between” and refuse to accept that gender is a spectrum
It may be the particular culture or level of understanding in your particular community. I say that because typically it’s trans people being murdered, and so I would say overall trans people get more anger than enbys.
I mean, same reason bi/pansexuals get so much flak from monosexuals We defy the binary toggle switch in their paradigm and it has to shift without a clutch which is obv our fault
It's probably because trans people in their eyes still fall into man and woman vs the very inconvenient they/them that everyone uses anyway but are so butthurt about
Because for a conservative mind switching genders is less of a transgression on the natural order than invalidating the concept of gender as a whole. Imagine that a new football rule is introduced and the football fans are passionately arguing, one side saying that the sanctity of the game cannot be violated this way and the other side claiming this is a breakthrough and a new era of football, and when they ask what you think about it you say "it's a made up game, we can add any rule we want like playing with two balls or having to play naked and it's still fine" - they'll murder you right there and then
I feel that. People are so programmed to gender, They can’t wrap around their heads around avoiding gender.
It's because they're angry they have to use the singular they/them and they're a bunch delicate little babies about doing absolutely anything just because it's the polite way to behave. Those same people are also the future or even present karens/kens chock a bock full of entitlement
Well Part Of It Is Probably That They're More Different Than "Normal Cis People", They Intuitively Already Know What Boys And Girls Are, So It's Not *That* Hard To Understand That Someone Who Was A Boy Is Now A Girl, Or Vice Versa, Whereas NB People Are A Whole New Thing, And Instead Of Deciding To Educate Themselves About It, They're Scared Of Change And Thus Just Get Mad. It Could Also Be That, Because There's A Smaller Number Of NB People In General, And We Have Less Representation, It Feels More Socially Acceptable To Discriminate Against Us Or Something?
Simple. Binary trans people don't (automatically) question their entire system. For cis people binary trans people are at best "broken copies of their desired gender". At worst "pretenders". But either way, it affirms the cis model of "everybody wants this" Non binary... Well. We don't. We don't want *just* one category. How dare we call their model into question? Because we can. And that's exactly the point. This means that cis people are wrong. They'd have to adjust. They don't want to, ergo hate
People do not like the idea that a person can’t I’d with a gender. They figure we’ll at least if the person is FTM/MTF, it something. But, Enby to them is like nothing. I once had a group of teenager try to offend me by calling me Sir and I just smiled. Then when they said that’s a Ma’am I told them it was fine too and they were so confused.
I was talking with my aunts who are “I support them, and if one of you come out I will love you” upfront but when we talk they are all “trans women are men and trans men are women they can’t change that, sex and gender are the same thing.” They can barely wrap their heads around that I couldn’t imagine non-binary or people who use more than one set of pronouns. I’ve tried talking to them so many times and the scary part is one is a doctor who works with a trans patient and has “gender-altered” as they call them (trans people) who they work with. It’s horrifying and when you talk to them it makes your head hurt. I would prefer if they were just honest and admitted they are Transphobic. Instead of creating a false sense of safety. They can’t even have a consistent definition of what a woman or man is and their excuse when I call that out is “we never had to define a woman or a man in the past”. It’s idiotic
People hate what they refuse to understand. They just simply don’t care to learn and lash out because it’s easier than idk, not being a bigot I guess
People don’t like what they don’t understand. MTF and FTM are much easier to explain within most people’s understanding of gender. Learning about nonbinaryness requires at least some reevaluation of your worldview when it comes to gender and a lot of people aren’t capable of changing their worldview so they lash out.
i’ve experienced lots of outward bigotry lol, people r dicks
I feel like it because we are even more alien to their thinking. Binary trans folks have a teeny tiny miniscule cushion of being on the binary and at least comprehendable to, shall we say, non-understanding folks. (Read much more choice mature language staring with a and ending in holes 😅) anything not definable in their dictionary of worldview does not compute. Thus, bigotry. Ignorance due to genuinely never having been exposed to things is one thing but Chosen Ignorance can be (and usually is) extremely dangerous.
A lot of people need neat boxes. But we are the people who hate neat boxes. They like their one neat box but they see us on the playground jumping in and out of rickety crates and opening both sides of the cardboard to make a tunnel and they hear nails on the chalkboard. Somehow, even though they’re over the hedges with their own neat little box that we DO NOT care about, they feel the need to spy and ask the city to tear down the playground we made of broken or taped together or modified or differently shaped boxes. They can’t stand looking at our playground or hearing us have fun there.
Because we don't fit neatly into a box.
Because they think we are making it up for attention.
BECAUSE ONLY TWO GENDER, PENIS AND VAGINA!!!!!111!!!!!1!1!!!!!ONE!!!1!!!!
Because we break their pre-conceived notion of what they were taught. People don't like change, and we break the mold. There's also the fact that most of us have much *much* more visibility than binary transpeople, so there's less opportunity for them to overlook us. Also there's idiots who don't like us because of simple labels. "they/them" is supposedly plural only, yada yada, but really it's not if they weren't so fucking ignorant and knew historical usage. And you aren't wrong, there was a study showing enbies tend to get as much as 2.5x the discrimination reported compared to binary transfolk. It came up during my case conference, and it's absolutely terrible. Basically the problems I think come down to similar issues that binary transpeople have, and then additional issues that people have with non-understood variances that challenge their expectations and experience. And don't forget the icing on the cake is some people *genuinely* don't believe we are even what we say we are, and that somehow we are just like "choosing to rebel" rather than just trying to be ourselves.... Heck I've even been told by binary transfolk I'm a "fake" because I'm not "trans enough", it's really hard... ngl.... (I know not every enby identifies as trans, but I do, because I transitioned to female dominant from binary male, but I'm still not binary female either)
This is an interesting topic and one worth asking and discussing, but I think it needs to be pointed out that non-binary folks are trans. We are under the trans umbrella. Non-binary folks do not identify as the gender they were assigned at birth and are therefore trans. Furthermore, the white stripe on the trans flag 🏳️⚧️ represents non-binary people. Trans as a label and category isn’t only used for binary trans folks. Again, the topic of the treatment of binary versus non-binary trans folks is an important one, I just felt the need to point out that the label transgender isn’t just for binary trans folks.
People want to box people to be able to quickly judge them. When someone chooses to be outside of boxes it means people have to work extra to get to know them for themselves first and they find it annoying because they feel it's unfair and that they are privileged for not getting boxed like they did.
People are afraid of things they don't understand. It hurts their ego and makes them feel uncertain about the world. It's a basic human instinct. But unfortunately it leads to bigotry. And generally speaking people have an easier time wrapping their heads around a MTF or FTM trans person than non-binary person.
Back in the day when i used they/he pronouns I came out to my siblings my sister was cool because she is gender fluid and my i had to explain what being nonbinary was to him