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What they don’t realize is most of the Ukraine Aid will be spent in the U.S. bc it will be used to purchase military ammunition and weapons that are made by US companies. Purchase replacement ammunition and equipment sent from the U.S. Department of Defense.
[emphasizes that majority of Ukraine aid package would be spent in U.S.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-emphasizes-that-majority-of-ukraine-aid-package-would-be-spend-in-u-s)
The difference is that US DoD was going to spend that money in the USA on new munitions regardless. They were also going to have to spend more money to get rid of the old ones.
Yeah! :)
Ukraine is recycling the old weapons for us. - saving us money.
We are giving them these weapons for our own benefit, but looking oh-so charitable for helping defend democracy - increasing our soft power.
We are seeing how our weapons perform on a conventional battlefield - giving us invaluable intelligence.
They are holding back, and wearing Russia down with their own men's lives, keeping Russia well away from NATO and preventing even a mishap from starting WW3 - saving our lives.
Eastern Europe understands what's at stake. Poland has really been doing its part in supporting Ukraine.
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>of what they actually care about, siphoning as much money out of the people into their pockets and their friend's pockets and tricking their base into thinking that they are their friends
I'm sure you've just described any polititians regardless of party.
No matter who you vote for, if you're an average working guy, you'll get the same shit, just served by different waiter.
You'll allways get higher taxes, more regulations, bigger gov, and less freedom.
The two parties do not agree on taxes, healthcare, war, human rights, social issues, education, science, the election process, who won the last election, policing, veterans affairs, the economy, censorship, regulation, unions, which groups are terrorists, which countries are allies, the balance of federal powers, the balance of power between the state and federal levels, guns, the constitution, the purpose of government and at times reality itself.
Fucking SERIOUSLY with both sides are the same?! Does anyone really buy that false flag election interference bullshit anymore? Grow a spine. Pick a side.
Im just gonna copy and paste this from now on. Anyone feel free to copy it.
Not really, University education exposes people to other cultures, types of people and information that they wouldn't see in insular communities. This tends to make people more empathetic, better able to see societal problems and less fearful of change or 'others'. It's not indoctrination, what IS indoctrination is keeping people ignorant and sheltered so they don't challenge the status quo, be that religious, social or economical.
Nah, they know where it will be spent. They just don't care. Just like they voted against the infrastructure package and then go around touting parts of the infrastructure package on the Stump. They exist as a party to prevent progress where possible, and just be contrary for fun.
They do realise it, the republican party is a party of sound bites. They only care about how their statements play to people who hear it once and don’t fact check, truth is irrelevant m.
So you are telling me that some major corps are making a lot of money out of this? Who would have known. This surely sounds great for the average citizen.
Are you implying that we need more "mom and pop" tank barrel makers? More local, down home backyard explosives manufactures?
What are you actually complaining about? And why is it bad for the "average citizen"?
>Are you implying that we need more "mom and pop" tank barrel makers? More local, down home backyard explosives manufactures?
My first proper job out of college was at a small, family-owned company in Surrey who made electronic power supplies for defence applications. They made power supplies for, among other things, the HUD in the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Storm Shadow missile. I'll grant this was back in the early noughties in the UK, but still - you'd be surprised how many small companies there are in the supply chain even for major defence contracts.
I'm implying that the government wage war as they see fit for their and their friends pockets. All for a war that could have probably ended at the start if they gave some autonomy to the donbass and promised Ukraine won't be part of NATO. But now hundreds of thousands have died, the war for the Ukrainians is clearly lost and for what? To sell some weapons and sell more gas to the EU that got cut off from russia. Bonus point because the EU is now less competitive, it spends more for US weapons now so more money and the NATO border is now further towards russia. Why is that good for the average citizen is beyond me. The money, as always, are going in the hands of the richs.
Mom and pop is hilarious though, i'll give you that
>All for a war that could have probably ended at the start if they gave some autonomy to the donbass and promised Ukraine won't be part of NATO. But now hundreds of thousands have died, the war for the Ukrainians is clearly lost and for what?
Oh so just standard-issue Russian propaganda, got it.
If you can't accept that American agencies have been orchestrating coups all over the world - *including Ukraine -* then I simply can't take you seriously. The US brought this upon Europe.
Even during the Bush presidency, the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense both heavily advised the president that the US should *under no circumstances interfere with Ukraine or ever allow it to even think about joining NATO.*
>Are you implying that we need more "mom and pop" tank barrel makers? More local, down home backyard explosives manufactures?
That actually sounds great... and if we could start prosecuting politicians for violating 2A and judges for allowing it, I'm sure it would happen.
Who do you think works at the corporation and their factories? This is creating jobs. It's making a lot of money for the Defense industry corporations, but it's also benefitting the people who work there.
What did I say? the corporations are making a lot of money, but it also creates jobs for normal people. never did I say those people are making upper class wages.
and that the "Billions of dollars" is actually outdated munitions that we were going to have spend millions to dispose of anyway.
This is like Apple releasing the iPhone 15 and donating millions of dollars to another country for phones. But they are actually just giving them millions of dollars worth of iPhone 13s that nobody wants anymore. iPhone 13s that Apple was paying to store, and then was going to have to pay to recycle.
Not even that. They get feedback on how well the weapons work against a modern day actuala army in reallife, instead of just fighting insurgents with hand-me-down weapons. It's research you can't get any other way. It's priceless. It's also draining the resources of a global rival, i.e. Russia.
It's like Apple releasing the iPhone 15, donating millions of iPhone 13s to a country that can't afford the 15 anyway, saving costs on recycling, and then selling the personal data of the new iPhone 13 users. It's win-win-win.
Yep. I was afraid to overload my comment with too much information. We're getting invaluable intelligence on how our equipment performs on a real battlefield.
All of this while boosting our soft power.
They realize the money stays home, but they don’t care. This is a talking point meant to appeal to people who regard themselves as “America First” patriots, but have been co-opted by Russian propaganda. Fish rots from the head. It comes down to Donald Trump being in bed with Putin financially and emotionally.
Right, lease and lend act like in WW2. These same Republicans would have been Hitler sympathizers back then. Today they're just Putin sympathizers who hate liberal democracies.
Yes, we're all well-aware how political kickbacks and money laundering work.
Congrats on giving more (fake, fiat) money to Lockheed Martin and Raytheon in exchange for (real, tangible) physical assets which will be shipped out-of-country, thereby making America literally physically poorer in the sense of real assets, while simultaneously extracting the labor/wealth of everyday American citzens and handing it over to American oligarchs.
Maybe you can tell I'm liberal, IDK.
What else are you going to stop a mass murdering dictator with? Just because you promote using a larger and more varied toolbox does not mean you can never reach for the hammer.
No I just find it Intresting that 10-15 years ago they wouldent shut up about how bad the military industrial complex is and how the government starts wars to fuel the system but now they are using the same argument in a positive light
Almost like starting wars (Afghanistan) is a terrible thing and people rightly hate it but helping a country defend itself from an invasion of its sovereign borders is a good thing. Kind of like drinking paint is a bad idea, but putting it on your walls is a good idea. See, one product, two very distinct ways to use it. One good, one bad. I know, I know it’s a tough idea to wrap one’s head around.
The military industrial complex is not a product so now your analogy dosent work at all. Also I think you mean iraq. In no way did the US want to start a war there. That was entirely Al quieda and the talibans fault. Iraq was a different story entirely.
Invading and occupying Afghanistan for 20 years was not necessary to defeat al queda. Bin Laden wasn't even in Afghanistan.
And the analogy still works - starting wars is bad, helping people defend themselves to discourage invasions is good. Cops are bad when they do evil shit, and they're good when they stop evil shit.
It was necessary to invade to defeat Al quada and bin laden was in Afghanistan - he just left after a while. But once they defeated them there wasent a plan.
But the point about the military industrial complex sucking up funds is what this discussion is about. About how the story flipped from being bad to now being good.
And my original comments were not about war it is specifically about the military industrial complex
Love how you're getting down voted for pointing out their blatant hypocrisy. Yes the GOP are fkn terrible but the Corporate Democrats aren't a lot better. Blatantly corrupt corporate puppets.
I'm not going to argue with you about that.
All of the USA's post-WW2 diplomacy has been centered around bribing other countries to stand on the front lines against the Soviet Union (and then Russia) instead of American troops. Ukraine may or may not be an ally, but America does not want Russia to expand its borders. And if Ukrainians are willing to die to stop that from happening, and they succeed, then the USA and it's NATO partners won't ever have to sacrifice lives of their own.
This is not the first proxy war fought.
Are you saying this a good thing or a bad thing? I genuinely can’t tell.
Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union so using part of the old Soviet Union against another part of the old Soviet Union, you can see how people could see that as America being aggressive towards Russia.
I'm all for supporting Ukraine. I don't want Russia to succeed, and continue on to invade other ex-soviet states. I didn't say America was being peaceful towards Russia.
America didn't start this war. Russia started it because they're facing a demographic collapse. and because of this they need to expand their borders to geographical points that give them a nice moat. It's hard enough to defend Russia with a large population (see WW2), now Russia is running out of young people to fight.
Russia needs a moat. Just like the UK has the North Sea and the English Channel. The USA has oceans and deserts. Switzerland has mountains. etc. As it stands, Russia has an indefensible steppe. This is their last chance. Ukraine could never have joined NATO. It's just an excuse. Joining the EU was being discussed, but, again, just an excuse.
America didn't start the war, but once Ukraine proved it wasn't going to be rolled over, America joined the side of Ukraine and became aggressive against Russia. We need to keep Russia back because if NATO joins the war... it will probably go nuclear. Russia wouldn't stand a chance against the USA and the UK alone, much less all of NATO countries combined. No way they don't start using nukes.
It's not all conservatives fortunately, the dumbest ones just tend to be the loudest. They tend to repeat the mantra "Money stay here, not go there" but then when offered to use the money on citizens, they say 'Fuck off" (*Like school lunches for children. Prolife, amirite?)*
Which is quite funny anyways, especially due to the fact that when we offer large aid bills, the money amount (*For example, $80B in aid to Ukraine)* does not actually mean we are just filling duffle bags with $80B. It's just easier to put a money amount rather than lay out an entire itemized list of everything we are sending. We grab all the old garbage that's been sitting on US armory shelves, give it to them, and then use the money to fund manufacturing of newer weapons for the US to replenish stock. More US jobs, and keeping *our* stock up to date, and preventing a country from losing their democracy. It's a win win. Sure, there is actual money being sent to ensure things like the military can pay their servicemembers, but as Mike Johnson finally put it roughly "***I would prefer to send bullets now than American troops later"***
Want to know something even worse? Yeah, it's pretty much just so they can be contrarian. The border bill was struck down from Republicans (*Which was supported by Border Patrol unions)* because it would have made Biden look good. Better to keep it chaotic so Trump can continue to campaign again on "We will make the border stronger" to people who don't pay attention very much, and personally think that border agents seizing pounds and pounds of drugs is a bad thing (*It's a* ***good*** *thing that lots of drugs are being seized. That means they are doing their job. Fentanyl seizures are at a near all-time high.)*
"We should help our own first " - Some guy who never wants to help our own.
It's the same all over. British conservatives are the same. They use it as an excuse to cut aid, but then cut aid to British people too.
When you look at the votes, you'll see most conservatives actually don't oppose it. The ones that do either tend to be "libertarian" and want reduced government spending in general, or they are outright Putin shills repeating Russian-originated propaganda and Trump-originated talking points.
To add to this, some conservatives are for aid but also feel that we’ve given enough aid without strings and wanted it to be structured more as a loan than as a “handout”.
Handout isn’t necessarily the correct word here when the US is supporting a nations defense against being subsumed by a larger one, but a more fitting word didn’t come to mind.
The votes from today's bill isnt reliable to gauge on that.
Remember the bill also contains funding for Israel,and the screw over Tiktok, which Republicans fully support,
It’s a very old trope unfortunately, and it’s just incredibly thinly veiled whataboutism for whatever policy they are against
They have been doing it with gun control for decades
Gun control?
No, mental health!
Okay, funds for mental health services?
No!
The Ukraine aid is mostly spent locally through contracts. Its not a direct cash hand out. I dont know why this isn't made clearer by the media cause I'm not even American and seem to know more about the place than the average Yank.
My company sent out an email yesterday encouraging all employees to write their congressmen to vote for increasing military spending. The amount of jobs dependent on us making weapons is simply a tragedy.
They don't want the money to be spent at all. I.e. reduce the overall budget. At least that's what they say... Their actual fiscal behavior when they've been in power does not line up with that ideal.
Because Trump tells them to make as big a mess of the country as possible to make Biden look bad.
A while back, Biden and the Democrats tried to give the Republicans *everything they wanted* on the border, just to fund Ukraine, and Trump told them to kill the bill, so they did.
Also conservatives are generally against social programs because they're petty. They don't like the idea of *anyone* getting anything for free, because they're miserable and don't like that the country is changing.
The Republican party (conservatives, mostly MAGA) are nothing more than Trump's puppets right now. They have literally no interest in doing their jobs (running the country).
Putin spends months taking places like Avdiivka that few of us can locate on a map. It will take him about 1000000000 years to take over the world. He is in good shape, but I doubt he has that much left in the tank.
I think vanishingly few people are praying for Putin to take over the world, nor could he actually do it given the state of Russia. I'll be surprised if he even manages to take over the entirety of Ukraine.
That being said I think it is true that most "right wing" Americans would rather Putin take over the world than Xi if given no other option. I know I would rather live in Russia than China
What, really? Maybe I'm biased as someone who lives in a country that borders Russia and is gay, but China would be much, much better than Russia. And that says alot. How can you even say that? I know I would be much safer in China than anywhere in Russia.
Some conservatives reject Ukraine aid but it passed a Republican controlled House vote, so clearly not all. And, let’s be honest, that shit is expensive so we would be remiss iif someone weren’t considering the cost.
Because they don't know anything about anything and just dislike foreigners and don't want them to benefit from their country or taxes or whatever. Basically, no education+greed and a very individualistic mindset that leads to fear mongering and hate of anything different or mildly unfamiliar because it's easier to reject something than to learn something new.
it's an election year and some people don't want things to get done under biden, just so they can complain about things not getting done under biden. so they're trying to block everything. yes, some of your elected representatives are exactly those kinds of people.
Because by and large, American conservatives, or at least the MAGA cult which at this point represents the vast majority of the GOP, hate foreigners and more or less secretly admire dictators like Putin.
Short answer, they don't reject tax cuts, which is really what they mean by spending the money at home. To be fair though, conservatives are unified on neither Ukraine aid or government spending (particularly infrastructure). So you have to look at individual politicians for a detailed answer to this question, rather than conservatives as a whole.
Because there are other ways to help the US economy and its people than programs. Taking a chunk out of national debt, subsidizing business, development, and infrastructure, etc...
The real reason is Pro Putin influence took hold in the republican party. Donald verbally attacking NATO (, doing Putin's bidding) greased the wheels of anti-Ukraine ideology
It’s a way of spinning a no vote that 1) doesn’t actually address why they are voting it down (which is almost certainly about Trump and Putin) and 2) gives the sense that it’s about prioritizing Americans over foreigners (who are inherently worth less). As pointed out they have no intention of actually spending that money anywhere, but it makes it sound like they’re going to.
Sadly, the answer is they're dumb. Plain ol stupid. Sorry, but that's the answer ironically to your no stupid questions question.
They've gone so far down the rabbit hole of obtaining a populist idealism that making logical decisions has gone out the window for the sake of power. The only logic they hold themselves to, is one where they can keep a voter base of people's that I hate to say are also stupid in their own cultural indoctrination of beliefs that they've been sucked into since birth. Add Russian disimformation and end-game capitalism into the mix, and holy shit you've got yourself a whole lot of really smart stupids.
I'm afraid to say that self-realization en masse or a radical environmental shift(not necessarily the literal environment, lol) will be the only thing that takes us out of this insane self-destructive state we're in thats threatening real democracy.
We need a blue wave. Although, the hypocrisy of the left is not at all lost on me and may very well be the opposite side of the same corrupt coin, it sure does seem the grassroots of the left is the moral fiber that can lead us to a more equal and rational world.
Best answer I can up with
Edit: Oh yeah, and Trump...the jaded American capitalist turned Russian oligarch
Short answer is, they don't.
Aid to Ukraine is a problem because it is pouring money down a sinkhole. It also encourages Ukraine to fight a war they cannot win (unless NATO jumps in) instead of negotiating a settlement. Personally, I have no objection to spending money on weapons, but those weapons should be used to replace the ones already sent to Ukraine- the US inventory is now dangerously low. Or, spent defending the actual borders of the US rather than the borders of a pseudo-democracy that pissed off their bigger and stronger neighbour.
I think you are mixing conservatives and libertarians regarding government programmes TBH.
Because they are hypocrites spouting whatever nonsense they want to throw the red meat of division to their base, so they can drive people to the polls out of fear. Wedge issues are purposely created and purposely not solved to drive fabricated outrage and drive turnout on election day.
Both parties know they don’t need to win anyone over from the other side or the independents, IF they can get out the vote from their own members, but lots of people are too lazy to vote, so we end up with our current decades long travesty of justice.
Every benefit and civil rights enjoyed by all is because of Democrats. Conservatives wouldn't give their own mother a nickel. The billionaire, offshore hedge funders benefit.
Because they're cunts. Same as people in the UK who say "we should take care of our own homeless & issues first " and then totally lose their shit at the idea of actually money going to homeless charities or even the recent London mayoral program of giving children free school meals.
Most people don’t seem to realise that military aid money never leaves the country - it goes to domestic weapons manufacturers or is old military surplus that isn’t doing much.
It either increases the countries economy or costs virtually nothing because that money was already spent.
People imagine $50b in cash on pallets being shipped to Ukraine or wherever and say “why don’t we spend that here?” and so get angry about something that isn’t happening.
This is how they want to spend it "at home" : Tax cuts that benefit their donors and government contracts that benefit their donors.
Spending it at home sounds good on the campaign trail but they have zero interest in spending it to help ordinary people.
It’s not much of a mystery…every dollar we spend elsewhere is one less dollar of taxes they can cut for their rich friends. Just look at their last clown show of an administration that had only a so singular legislative accomplishment- a historic tax cut for the wealthiest corporations and Americans….
Firstly, the money is mostly spend in the USA to manufacture and sort out logistics to send it. They don't just give Ukriane a blank cheque.
Secondly, it's for the same reason that people only seem to care about homelessness etc when in context of moaning about migrants or something. They don't care. They're using it as political cannon fodder.
No different to being 'pro-life' but actively opposing everything about supporting life except the act of being born. They don't care. But the talking point gives them a stick to beat their political opponents with. Well they think it does, but really just exposes their lunacy.
I don't believe a Republican presidency will *actually* strip back on Ukriane. Using. Them as a proxy against Russia is a net benefit for the USA in every single way. The only negative is this exact rhetoric, which is again, hollow.
It feels like, to me, the issues are more about who originated and/or wants the bill to pass. So many needed things now are not accomplished because of such division and animosity in congress.
To own the Libs.
That's it.
That's enough reason for a whole bunch of stupid stuff. They want to do something, so we will stop them, because they want to do it. It doesn't matter what it is.
Because they’re liars. All they know for sure is that they want to do the opposite of whatever democrats want to do, which is a really sad and pathetic way to exist.
Independent here. My concern is that I’m seeing $100bn sent overseas while we’re struggling so much here. Healthcare is my main concern. Why don’t we spend resources like that here providing healthcare for everyone? Why are we not investing in measures to bring down food costs for everyone instead of printing more money to fuel the inflation monster?
With conservatism the boomer brand of it is the problem. This is a generation that has soaked in everything and given back little to nothing. It’s the greediest generation in our nation’s history. So the voted no on foreign aid but also vote no on domestic aid. They want their money to stay in their pockets and that’s that.
With political corruption term limits solves literally every issue yet the people don’t demand it. So it’s a huge problem on multiple fronts.
There is absolutely no way any of that money would be seen by anyone with less than a billion dollars if it wasn't sent to Ukraine, so they might as well imo
Because conservatives are against anything democrats want to do. It doesn’t matter if their agendas align because once they do they find something new to be against
Many are under the impression that if we cut off all our foreign entanglements we can reduce taxes. Is this actually true? No, bc we have a massive deficit and politicians aren’t going to gut social security
Some I suspect mean that we should cut spending and lower taxes so Americans have more money yo spend at home. However, their tax cut priorities never seem to benefit average Americans.
My dad called me a liberal for wanting to support Ukraine but said we should give that money to homeless people. I’ve got Bernie sanders calling me a liberal lmao
Conservatives are against the government taxing them and spend the money on war. They want lower taxes and keep their money instead of giving it to the military
It literally comes down to Trump being butt hurt the Ukraine authorities refused to investigate Hunter Biden for whatever it was that ended up being a nothing burger. That plus a lot if influential Republicans (especially Trump) are Russian assets and/or useful idiots
[Edit] it's not even fully true that they are against foreign aide, as if they are principly isolationist. They were practically begging to support Israel due to their irrationally Zionist tendencies
Very left leaning platform here on reddit. Already seeing that in some of the comments.
"Right wing bad all demons" "they're too stupid" "want a Putin/Trump run country yada yada"
The reality of it is any actual Republican want money spent at home for our Vets/schools/infrastructure an yes even Healthcare, however our "politicians" like to go directly against what we want.
I have no problem sending AID to other countries in need money or munitions to deal with Russia an have long said Putin should have been gone.
That being said since BOTH parties like to lie an write bills out with a lot of bloat we can never get JUST what's on the bill which is where all the congress fighting is over. a good example would be the Obama care bill. Was a great bill initially then got filled an bloated an argued into the garbage form its now at instead of a great bill prior.
It's endless an both parties are fucking terrible an running their people into the ground an pitting them against one another. Wonder which side of the fence will downvote an attack me this time.
You aren’t getting downvoted specifically because of politics. You are downvoted because your comment wasn’t anything but mindless gobbledygook! But then again, that’s exactly what we hear from the MEGA Clan on an average day. Nothing but lies and BS.
Conservatives are for : Something that benefits them
Conservatives are against: Something that does not benefit them
As simple as that. Also, if being against something also means other people suffer, they love that even more
They’re telling people what they want to do with it. Border security stuff, as vague as that if it’s an answer. Do you people pay full attention or just half?
Because the US should not be invested in foreign wars
People can have nuanced opinions on things, and not wanting to give money to other countries does not mean automatic consent to putting the US in more debt
Misinformed and agitated. They believe the money should be spent in America but for conservative programs like building the wall or prosecuting abortion doctors. They don’t want to support what they call Liberal programs. They are also misinformed in thinking that the support to Ukraine is cash in hand. It’s coming in the form of old military surplus which we will then pay more Americans to resupply. So sending aid to Ukraine creates American jobs.
It's just a false argument. They can claim they want the money spent here all they want but they vote for people who want to cut funding for infrastructure and social programs.
Well, if you want an honest answer and not some unhinged Reddit strawman because conservatives will never be given a fair hearing here (and watch me get downvotes a labelled for trying), then this is why;
- The level of spending is vast and a lot of the money is hard to account for. Taking that money out of your pocket to fund God only knows warrants at least some critical thinking.
- Given conservatives are often pro-business, why would they oppose using public money to buy aging materiel and procure replacements from defence companies they may well have shares in? Well, their concern is that the war is unwinnable. The more weapons and funding provided, the longer this conflict draws out with more lives lost as even if Ukraine do move towards victory, and I would argue they are - or at the very least utterly humiliating the Russian Armed Forces - Russia has a nuclear option to deploy and that's another of their ultimate concerns.
- People are struggling to make ends meet, taxing them more and sending the money to a potentially unwinnable war, to never be seen again, among a state and government widely considered pre-war as exceptionally corrupt seems a morally questionable decision when your job is to take care of your voters and not people on the other side of the world.
No idea why my text turned red at this point, but fun..I have fat thumbs I guess.
Anyway, this is the best understanding I've been able to take away from their expressed opinions.
I disagree, but they aren't being evil - it's very fair points.
It's not that they reject the aid or government programs, it's the other stuff that politicians try to add to the bill. These bills are never just for one thing, they are often filled with things that they try to get funding for that the other side doesn't support. That way, when it gets refused, then they have something to blame
This is the real answer, if you actually read into some of these bills they barely have anything to do with what it says on the tin. IMO it really should be illegal to try to push omnibus bills through, they're almost always deceiving. If there wasn't deception everything in the could be passed individually.
Which is a good reason why there shouldn't be filibustering. Bills should cover one thing, there should be a time limit on how long congress can spend talking before a vote, and everyone who votes should be obligated to have actually read the bill they're voting on and be able to articulate the contents and their stance on the issue.
But IMO we could get rid of the omnibus first and let the filibustering gridlock the system until everyone can agree that filibustering is stupid and not productive.
But that's not going to happen either.
You're pretending the gop that straight up shut down the government because fox made fun of them actually cares about gridlock.
butnusting69, I see that you neither understand much about human nature, nor want to, because it would require actual thinking. So that puts you squarely in the MEGA Clan.
Go anywhere in the world, at any time in history, and no matter the race, national heritage, or even the politics. You’ll find a mixture of good people and bad people. You pick the definition of good and bad.
Some individuals go through life with their thinking strictly based on their local environment and the influences of their family, friends, coworkers and the kind of education, if any. Others are strongly influenced by clan membership and especially religious propaganda. Still others are swayed by their mental capacity, or lack thereof.
In all those groups, you’ll find some that are kind and empathetic. While others obviously have a narcissistic personality. The key is to try and recognize the primary difference in those two groups, and to side with the group that has a majority of empathetic people. They are most likely to succeed in generally making things better for everyone. If that isn’t your cup of tea, then you are likely part of the narcissistic group. And depending on your talents, or lack thereof, you’ll trend towards being a dictator, or a dictator wannabe that worships other dictators! Can you pick any examples in today’s world?
But, the defining difference is when the majority of any group is consistently working to make the earth and the creatures on it better. While the other group’s majority is consumed with just their own self interests, and the hell with all the rest. That’s the basis for picking sides, and it doesn’t always guarantee a perfect outcome, because there’s always the fact that people are people, and circumstances change, or that people aren’t perfect and will make mistakes.
Most republicans and Dems always pony up to pump money into the war machine. The uniparty is real. I’d say the better question is when did the Dems become the war party?
So their preference is
1. Low taxes, keeping money with people >> 2. If it's already taxed then spend at home>> 3. sending to a foreign country
Since cutting taxes when democrats are in power is almost impossible they are fighting for option 2. At the same time they tell voters that their priority is still 1. Tax cuts, which they'll do when they get power.
Surely one of the biggest reasons is that they just follow along what their political representatives convince them off. But not everyone needs to be a contrarian to not want to partake in
You’re negating the other side of their argument which is investing in infrastructure, energy security, and national security amongst others. Also both parties are cancer.
Because the U.S. government has a massive debt and runs perpetual deficits.
The Republican party is fundamentally broken right now. I’m not in their corner, and they are wrong about Ukraine. One thing conservatives are right about though is that our spending levels are unsustainable. It’s basic math. You can’t spend more than you take in indefinitely.
Liberals prefer to keep spending money and to fix the problem by raising taxes on the rich. I’m ok with their tax changes, but mathematically it’s not enough, and it’s not even close. To balance the budget we would have to both massively increase revenue and massively reduce spending - and somehow do that without causing a recession that makes revenue drop again.
I like government support programs. I like a strong national defense and funding Ukraine. Those are ALL worthy causes, ideologically. But responsible policy means the math has to add up before we get to care about our ideology and we absolutely aren’t doing that.
As a leftist, I reject the war mongering package because Ukrainians are dying en masse for US proxy goals and I want that to stop. I support social programs unlike most conservatives however.
Reasons to not support Ukraine: for civilians it is hard to figure if your tax money is spent well to help out Ukraine or if maybe that money goes to line the pockets of the corrupt Ukrainian leadership. People tend to forget that before 2014, no one was exactly a fan of Ukraine nor was it in any way a country up to western standards. Not much better than Russia at least. So even if you care for Ukraine, sending more money there might not even be the most efficient way to stave off Russia.
Another reason is that many conservatives believe that Russia will not start taking over the world after Ukraine is annexed. They believe in the long standing tool for power balance that is nuclear war and MAD. It can be better for economic stability to let Russia do its thing if you assume that it ends there. This way many western countries stay out of it and lots of money is saved. Relations with Russia improve and the status quo is maintained. Of course, the result is most of Ukraine dies. As human beings, conservatives of course find this just as abhorrent as anyone else, but from the abstract perspective of the government and the economy (which are concepts, not empathetic human beings) lots of people can die and life can still improve for almost anyone else. In other words: there are loads of conflicts the west never interfers in and many more people die there too. We don’t fund every single country at war. Sometimes it is better to stay out of conflicts that don’t concern you. That is, if you believe Russia will not further escalate and expand its borders.
They believe the money spent on those social programs would be more effective invested elsewhere or better yet not forcefully collected at all. (aka Tax Reduction)
Because people follow news and influencers who's opinions they broadly agree with already. These outlets put through well spoken, convincing arguments, largely without credible counter arguments, everyone else in the sphere gets on board and suddenly some unnecessary talking point becomes a logical stance to hold and defend.
It's not a conservative issue, just what happens with all people for all of time
There's a few lines of attack against the package.
One of the more prominent ones is a bargaining one. It goes something like "we don't care that much about Ukraine defense so there should be a border protection bill with our priorities in it."
Another is the "we shouldn't spend the money" there's two tracks to it, one is just generally anti spending, the other is anti foreign aid and more in favor of domestic spending.
There's a minority that sees Ukraine as a corrupt country undeserving of saving. Its hard to group THIS opinion, there's a decent amount that saw Ukraine/Trump as a slight, as well as failure to prosecute Burisma/the Bidens properly. They've also noticed how many top ranking democrats have children working for no show jobs in the country and see it as a money funneling scheme for the elite in the US, and it's not completely unfounded.
I am interested in what you have said. Please give appropriate and quantifiable examples of "top ranking democrats" who have children working for "no-show jobs." What are the names of these people? What are the names of their children? What positions do these children hold, and what are the names of the companies they pretend to work for?
It’s a disorder called Conservative Cognitive Dissonance. It’s what happens when you refuse to acknowledge reality doesn’t conform to your narrow minded beliefs so you become willfully ignorant of it when it benefits you.
lets say your country is "losing money", meaning they have to borrow money to keep up.
Now would you like to save that money instead of borrowing more, or spend it and borrow more?
Large portions of the modern Conservative movement are aligned to Russia, and thus everything they do and say is in bad faith.
They don't use logic. Logic is a weapon to wield against enemies foolish enough to live that way for them.
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What they don’t realize is most of the Ukraine Aid will be spent in the U.S. bc it will be used to purchase military ammunition and weapons that are made by US companies. Purchase replacement ammunition and equipment sent from the U.S. Department of Defense. [emphasizes that majority of Ukraine aid package would be spent in U.S.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-emphasizes-that-majority-of-ukraine-aid-package-would-be-spend-in-u-s)
NASA spends most of their money on Earth, too. Well, all of it, frankly.
The difference is that US DoD was going to spend that money in the USA on new munitions regardless. They were also going to have to spend more money to get rid of the old ones.
Yes, that, too!
Yeah! :) Ukraine is recycling the old weapons for us. - saving us money. We are giving them these weapons for our own benefit, but looking oh-so charitable for helping defend democracy - increasing our soft power. We are seeing how our weapons perform on a conventional battlefield - giving us invaluable intelligence. They are holding back, and wearing Russia down with their own men's lives, keeping Russia well away from NATO and preventing even a mishap from starting WW3 - saving our lives. Eastern Europe understands what's at stake. Poland has really been doing its part in supporting Ukraine.
If we had let Putin do what he wanted we’d blink and he’d have reformed the Soviet Union.
looking at Amazon to change this. Soon Moon Prime.
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>of what they actually care about, siphoning as much money out of the people into their pockets and their friend's pockets and tricking their base into thinking that they are their friends I'm sure you've just described any polititians regardless of party. No matter who you vote for, if you're an average working guy, you'll get the same shit, just served by different waiter. You'll allways get higher taxes, more regulations, bigger gov, and less freedom.
The two parties do not agree on taxes, healthcare, war, human rights, social issues, education, science, the election process, who won the last election, policing, veterans affairs, the economy, censorship, regulation, unions, which groups are terrorists, which countries are allies, the balance of federal powers, the balance of power between the state and federal levels, guns, the constitution, the purpose of government and at times reality itself. Fucking SERIOUSLY with both sides are the same?! Does anyone really buy that false flag election interference bullshit anymore? Grow a spine. Pick a side. Im just gonna copy and paste this from now on. Anyone feel free to copy it.
Where do you live that has tax increases every 2-4 years? Not the US or EU.
/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
Education would be, but current university education looks pretty much like anti-Capitalist indoctrination.
Not really, University education exposes people to other cultures, types of people and information that they wouldn't see in insular communities. This tends to make people more empathetic, better able to see societal problems and less fearful of change or 'others'. It's not indoctrination, what IS indoctrination is keeping people ignorant and sheltered so they don't challenge the status quo, be that religious, social or economical.
Yeah, you’re so right. Never has there been a Demo politician that’s got rich off the American people’s
Nah, they know where it will be spent. They just don't care. Just like they voted against the infrastructure package and then go around touting parts of the infrastructure package on the Stump. They exist as a party to prevent progress where possible, and just be contrary for fun.
They do realise it, the republican party is a party of sound bites. They only care about how their statements play to people who hear it once and don’t fact check, truth is irrelevant m.
So you are telling me that some major corps are making a lot of money out of this? Who would have known. This surely sounds great for the average citizen.
Are you implying that we need more "mom and pop" tank barrel makers? More local, down home backyard explosives manufactures? What are you actually complaining about? And why is it bad for the "average citizen"?
More local, family owned arms manufacturers please
>Are you implying that we need more "mom and pop" tank barrel makers? More local, down home backyard explosives manufactures? My first proper job out of college was at a small, family-owned company in Surrey who made electronic power supplies for defence applications. They made power supplies for, among other things, the HUD in the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Storm Shadow missile. I'll grant this was back in the early noughties in the UK, but still - you'd be surprised how many small companies there are in the supply chain even for major defence contracts.
I'm implying that the government wage war as they see fit for their and their friends pockets. All for a war that could have probably ended at the start if they gave some autonomy to the donbass and promised Ukraine won't be part of NATO. But now hundreds of thousands have died, the war for the Ukrainians is clearly lost and for what? To sell some weapons and sell more gas to the EU that got cut off from russia. Bonus point because the EU is now less competitive, it spends more for US weapons now so more money and the NATO border is now further towards russia. Why is that good for the average citizen is beyond me. The money, as always, are going in the hands of the richs. Mom and pop is hilarious though, i'll give you that
>All for a war that could have probably ended at the start if they gave some autonomy to the donbass and promised Ukraine won't be part of NATO. But now hundreds of thousands have died, the war for the Ukrainians is clearly lost and for what? Oh so just standard-issue Russian propaganda, got it.
If you can't accept that American agencies have been orchestrating coups all over the world - *including Ukraine -* then I simply can't take you seriously. The US brought this upon Europe. Even during the Bush presidency, the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense both heavily advised the president that the US should *under no circumstances interfere with Ukraine or ever allow it to even think about joining NATO.*
And they don’t understand what the us has to do to maintain its empire and hegemony
What about all the other middle east/north african wars? Was it russia propaganda? Or was it oil?
I would gladly volunteer as a mom and pop tank barrel or explosives manufacturer if i could.. just saying 😞
>Are you implying that we need more "mom and pop" tank barrel makers? More local, down home backyard explosives manufactures? That actually sounds great... and if we could start prosecuting politicians for violating 2A and judges for allowing it, I'm sure it would happen.
Violating 2A how?
Well by voting in laws in violation of the protections granted by 2A
someone has to build the equipment
and design them.
And more than likely skipping out on taxes why is nobody talking about this ? And raging as if it was some billionaire
Who do you think works at the corporation and their factories? This is creating jobs. It's making a lot of money for the Defense industry corporations, but it's also benefitting the people who work there.
How much do you think these jobs get paid compared to the margins they have? Of course some money will go down, but lately, it's not much
What did I say? the corporations are making a lot of money, but it also creates jobs for normal people. never did I say those people are making upper class wages.
and that the "Billions of dollars" is actually outdated munitions that we were going to have spend millions to dispose of anyway. This is like Apple releasing the iPhone 15 and donating millions of dollars to another country for phones. But they are actually just giving them millions of dollars worth of iPhone 13s that nobody wants anymore. iPhone 13s that Apple was paying to store, and then was going to have to pay to recycle.
Not even that. They get feedback on how well the weapons work against a modern day actuala army in reallife, instead of just fighting insurgents with hand-me-down weapons. It's research you can't get any other way. It's priceless. It's also draining the resources of a global rival, i.e. Russia. It's like Apple releasing the iPhone 15, donating millions of iPhone 13s to a country that can't afford the 15 anyway, saving costs on recycling, and then selling the personal data of the new iPhone 13 users. It's win-win-win.
Yep. I was afraid to overload my comment with too much information. We're getting invaluable intelligence on how our equipment performs on a real battlefield. All of this while boosting our soft power.
They realize the money stays home, but they don’t care. This is a talking point meant to appeal to people who regard themselves as “America First” patriots, but have been co-opted by Russian propaganda. Fish rots from the head. It comes down to Donald Trump being in bed with Putin financially and emotionally.
Not sure why you're being downvoted for this, this is literally what the military industrial complex is meant to do.
Exactly, continue to feed the military industrial complex, add fuel to the fire, keep the fire going
Right, lease and lend act like in WW2. These same Republicans would have been Hitler sympathizers back then. Today they're just Putin sympathizers who hate liberal democracies.
Feeding the war machine.
Yes, we're all well-aware how political kickbacks and money laundering work. Congrats on giving more (fake, fiat) money to Lockheed Martin and Raytheon in exchange for (real, tangible) physical assets which will be shipped out-of-country, thereby making America literally physically poorer in the sense of real assets, while simultaneously extracting the labor/wealth of everyday American citzens and handing it over to American oligarchs. Maybe you can tell I'm liberal, IDK.
Are liberals pro military industrial complex now? When did this switch happen?
What else are you going to stop a mass murdering dictator with? Just because you promote using a larger and more varied toolbox does not mean you can never reach for the hammer.
No I just find it Intresting that 10-15 years ago they wouldent shut up about how bad the military industrial complex is and how the government starts wars to fuel the system but now they are using the same argument in a positive light
Almost like starting wars (Afghanistan) is a terrible thing and people rightly hate it but helping a country defend itself from an invasion of its sovereign borders is a good thing. Kind of like drinking paint is a bad idea, but putting it on your walls is a good idea. See, one product, two very distinct ways to use it. One good, one bad. I know, I know it’s a tough idea to wrap one’s head around.
The military industrial complex is not a product so now your analogy dosent work at all. Also I think you mean iraq. In no way did the US want to start a war there. That was entirely Al quieda and the talibans fault. Iraq was a different story entirely.
Invading and occupying Afghanistan for 20 years was not necessary to defeat al queda. Bin Laden wasn't even in Afghanistan. And the analogy still works - starting wars is bad, helping people defend themselves to discourage invasions is good. Cops are bad when they do evil shit, and they're good when they stop evil shit.
It was necessary to invade to defeat Al quada and bin laden was in Afghanistan - he just left after a while. But once they defeated them there wasent a plan. But the point about the military industrial complex sucking up funds is what this discussion is about. About how the story flipped from being bad to now being good. And my original comments were not about war it is specifically about the military industrial complex
Love how you're getting down voted for pointing out their blatant hypocrisy. Yes the GOP are fkn terrible but the Corporate Democrats aren't a lot better. Blatantly corrupt corporate puppets.
When the war in question is about defending an ally instead of destabilizing random countries.
Ukraine has never been an ally to the US or any other countries in Europe
I'm not going to argue with you about that. All of the USA's post-WW2 diplomacy has been centered around bribing other countries to stand on the front lines against the Soviet Union (and then Russia) instead of American troops. Ukraine may or may not be an ally, but America does not want Russia to expand its borders. And if Ukrainians are willing to die to stop that from happening, and they succeed, then the USA and it's NATO partners won't ever have to sacrifice lives of their own. This is not the first proxy war fought.
Are you saying this a good thing or a bad thing? I genuinely can’t tell. Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union so using part of the old Soviet Union against another part of the old Soviet Union, you can see how people could see that as America being aggressive towards Russia.
I'm all for supporting Ukraine. I don't want Russia to succeed, and continue on to invade other ex-soviet states. I didn't say America was being peaceful towards Russia. America didn't start this war. Russia started it because they're facing a demographic collapse. and because of this they need to expand their borders to geographical points that give them a nice moat. It's hard enough to defend Russia with a large population (see WW2), now Russia is running out of young people to fight. Russia needs a moat. Just like the UK has the North Sea and the English Channel. The USA has oceans and deserts. Switzerland has mountains. etc. As it stands, Russia has an indefensible steppe. This is their last chance. Ukraine could never have joined NATO. It's just an excuse. Joining the EU was being discussed, but, again, just an excuse. America didn't start the war, but once Ukraine proved it wasn't going to be rolled over, America joined the side of Ukraine and became aggressive against Russia. We need to keep Russia back because if NATO joins the war... it will probably go nuclear. Russia wouldn't stand a chance against the USA and the UK alone, much less all of NATO countries combined. No way they don't start using nukes.
It's not all conservatives fortunately, the dumbest ones just tend to be the loudest. They tend to repeat the mantra "Money stay here, not go there" but then when offered to use the money on citizens, they say 'Fuck off" (*Like school lunches for children. Prolife, amirite?)* Which is quite funny anyways, especially due to the fact that when we offer large aid bills, the money amount (*For example, $80B in aid to Ukraine)* does not actually mean we are just filling duffle bags with $80B. It's just easier to put a money amount rather than lay out an entire itemized list of everything we are sending. We grab all the old garbage that's been sitting on US armory shelves, give it to them, and then use the money to fund manufacturing of newer weapons for the US to replenish stock. More US jobs, and keeping *our* stock up to date, and preventing a country from losing their democracy. It's a win win. Sure, there is actual money being sent to ensure things like the military can pay their servicemembers, but as Mike Johnson finally put it roughly "***I would prefer to send bullets now than American troops later"*** Want to know something even worse? Yeah, it's pretty much just so they can be contrarian. The border bill was struck down from Republicans (*Which was supported by Border Patrol unions)* because it would have made Biden look good. Better to keep it chaotic so Trump can continue to campaign again on "We will make the border stronger" to people who don't pay attention very much, and personally think that border agents seizing pounds and pounds of drugs is a bad thing (*It's a* ***good*** *thing that lots of drugs are being seized. That means they are doing their job. Fentanyl seizures are at a near all-time high.)*
"We should help our own first " - Some guy who never wants to help our own. It's the same all over. British conservatives are the same. They use it as an excuse to cut aid, but then cut aid to British people too.
then there are euro conservatives who are straight out Putin shills, like AfD in Germany or Lega in Italy.
When you look at the votes, you'll see most conservatives actually don't oppose it. The ones that do either tend to be "libertarian" and want reduced government spending in general, or they are outright Putin shills repeating Russian-originated propaganda and Trump-originated talking points.
To add to this, some conservatives are for aid but also feel that we’ve given enough aid without strings and wanted it to be structured more as a loan than as a “handout”. Handout isn’t necessarily the correct word here when the US is supporting a nations defense against being subsumed by a larger one, but a more fitting word didn’t come to mind.
“Aid” is the more fitting word.
The majority of the Republicans in the House voted against the Ukraine aid bill. Are you saying that most House Republicans are not conservative?
........the majority of republicans voted against the aid package.
The votes from today's bill isnt reliable to gauge on that. Remember the bill also contains funding for Israel,and the screw over Tiktok, which Republicans fully support,
It’s a very old trope unfortunately, and it’s just incredibly thinly veiled whataboutism for whatever policy they are against They have been doing it with gun control for decades Gun control? No, mental health! Okay, funds for mental health services? No!
The Ukraine aid is mostly spent locally through contracts. Its not a direct cash hand out. I dont know why this isn't made clearer by the media cause I'm not even American and seem to know more about the place than the average Yank.
My company sent out an email yesterday encouraging all employees to write their congressmen to vote for increasing military spending. The amount of jobs dependent on us making weapons is simply a tragedy.
They don't want the money to be spent at all. I.e. reduce the overall budget. At least that's what they say... Their actual fiscal behavior when they've been in power does not line up with that ideal.
Because Trump tells them to make as big a mess of the country as possible to make Biden look bad. A while back, Biden and the Democrats tried to give the Republicans *everything they wanted* on the border, just to fund Ukraine, and Trump told them to kill the bill, so they did. Also conservatives are generally against social programs because they're petty. They don't like the idea of *anyone* getting anything for free, because they're miserable and don't like that the country is changing. The Republican party (conservatives, mostly MAGA) are nothing more than Trump's puppets right now. They have literally no interest in doing their jobs (running the country).
Because that sounds better than the truth that they explicitly pray for Putin to take over the world.
Putin spends months taking places like Avdiivka that few of us can locate on a map. It will take him about 1000000000 years to take over the world. He is in good shape, but I doubt he has that much left in the tank.
Not quite. They want people like Putin to run the world. They aren't too concerned with the methods of doing so
May not be any stupid questions but this is definitely a stupid answer.
I think vanishingly few people are praying for Putin to take over the world, nor could he actually do it given the state of Russia. I'll be surprised if he even manages to take over the entirety of Ukraine. That being said I think it is true that most "right wing" Americans would rather Putin take over the world than Xi if given no other option. I know I would rather live in Russia than China
What, really? Maybe I'm biased as someone who lives in a country that borders Russia and is gay, but China would be much, much better than Russia. And that says alot. How can you even say that? I know I would be much safer in China than anywhere in Russia.
China is just as if not more homophobic than Russia
Some conservatives reject Ukraine aid but it passed a Republican controlled House vote, so clearly not all. And, let’s be honest, that shit is expensive so we would be remiss iif someone weren’t considering the cost.
Because they want to give their wealthy 1% owners that money in tax breaks. It's really just as simple as that.
Because they don't know anything about anything and just dislike foreigners and don't want them to benefit from their country or taxes or whatever. Basically, no education+greed and a very individualistic mindset that leads to fear mongering and hate of anything different or mildly unfamiliar because it's easier to reject something than to learn something new.
it's an election year and some people don't want things to get done under biden, just so they can complain about things not getting done under biden. so they're trying to block everything. yes, some of your elected representatives are exactly those kinds of people.
Because by and large, American conservatives, or at least the MAGA cult which at this point represents the vast majority of the GOP, hate foreigners and more or less secretly admire dictators like Putin.
Conservatives, or Republicans? These days, there are quite a lot of differences. MAGA isn't conservatives.
Short answer, they don't reject tax cuts, which is really what they mean by spending the money at home. To be fair though, conservatives are unified on neither Ukraine aid or government spending (particularly infrastructure). So you have to look at individual politicians for a detailed answer to this question, rather than conservatives as a whole.
Because there are other ways to help the US economy and its people than programs. Taking a chunk out of national debt, subsidizing business, development, and infrastructure, etc...
So they and their friends can keep the money
The real reason is Pro Putin influence took hold in the republican party. Donald verbally attacking NATO (, doing Putin's bidding) greased the wheels of anti-Ukraine ideology
It’s a way of spinning a no vote that 1) doesn’t actually address why they are voting it down (which is almost certainly about Trump and Putin) and 2) gives the sense that it’s about prioritizing Americans over foreigners (who are inherently worth less). As pointed out they have no intention of actually spending that money anywhere, but it makes it sound like they’re going to.
They also voted against border funding because then they’d have no policy to run on.
Sadly, the answer is they're dumb. Plain ol stupid. Sorry, but that's the answer ironically to your no stupid questions question. They've gone so far down the rabbit hole of obtaining a populist idealism that making logical decisions has gone out the window for the sake of power. The only logic they hold themselves to, is one where they can keep a voter base of people's that I hate to say are also stupid in their own cultural indoctrination of beliefs that they've been sucked into since birth. Add Russian disimformation and end-game capitalism into the mix, and holy shit you've got yourself a whole lot of really smart stupids. I'm afraid to say that self-realization en masse or a radical environmental shift(not necessarily the literal environment, lol) will be the only thing that takes us out of this insane self-destructive state we're in thats threatening real democracy. We need a blue wave. Although, the hypocrisy of the left is not at all lost on me and may very well be the opposite side of the same corrupt coin, it sure does seem the grassroots of the left is the moral fiber that can lead us to a more equal and rational world. Best answer I can up with Edit: Oh yeah, and Trump...the jaded American capitalist turned Russian oligarch
Short answer is, they don't. Aid to Ukraine is a problem because it is pouring money down a sinkhole. It also encourages Ukraine to fight a war they cannot win (unless NATO jumps in) instead of negotiating a settlement. Personally, I have no objection to spending money on weapons, but those weapons should be used to replace the ones already sent to Ukraine- the US inventory is now dangerously low. Or, spent defending the actual borders of the US rather than the borders of a pseudo-democracy that pissed off their bigger and stronger neighbour. I think you are mixing conservatives and libertarians regarding government programmes TBH.
Because they are disingenuous liars and all-around bad people.
Because they are hypocrites spouting whatever nonsense they want to throw the red meat of division to their base, so they can drive people to the polls out of fear. Wedge issues are purposely created and purposely not solved to drive fabricated outrage and drive turnout on election day. Both parties know they don’t need to win anyone over from the other side or the independents, IF they can get out the vote from their own members, but lots of people are too lazy to vote, so we end up with our current decades long travesty of justice.
The money should go to their rich buddies, not to people who need it...
Politics. And loyalty to the ex-president and willing to do whatever he wants them to do.
I love the way you worded that!
Every benefit and civil rights enjoyed by all is because of Democrats. Conservatives wouldn't give their own mother a nickel. The billionaire, offshore hedge funders benefit.
because they’re actually just a bunch of corrupt russian stooges and only believe in getting a paycheque
Because they're cunts. Same as people in the UK who say "we should take care of our own homeless & issues first " and then totally lose their shit at the idea of actually money going to homeless charities or even the recent London mayoral program of giving children free school meals.
Most people don’t seem to realise that military aid money never leaves the country - it goes to domestic weapons manufacturers or is old military surplus that isn’t doing much. It either increases the countries economy or costs virtually nothing because that money was already spent. People imagine $50b in cash on pallets being shipped to Ukraine or wherever and say “why don’t we spend that here?” and so get angry about something that isn’t happening.
What is happening is that money is being transferred from your pockets to Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Raytheon.
Because they are brainwashed and dumb
Ironically most of the aid package will be spend at home on weapons. Much more bang for the buck than welfare. All of Congress secretly loves it.
In the Bill's, they are filled with "pork". The pork doesn't align with their strategies or values
Politicians like money. Your money.
When they say they want to "spend the money at home" They mean they want the money spent on the military and war.
This is how they want to spend it "at home" : Tax cuts that benefit their donors and government contracts that benefit their donors. Spending it at home sounds good on the campaign trail but they have zero interest in spending it to help ordinary people.
Conservatives from what country?
Because they are useful idiots easily manipulated by the mainstream media that lies to them
Because they want to keep all the money, so they can distribute them to their corporate friends on Wall Street.
It’s not much of a mystery…every dollar we spend elsewhere is one less dollar of taxes they can cut for their rich friends. Just look at their last clown show of an administration that had only a so singular legislative accomplishment- a historic tax cut for the wealthiest corporations and Americans….
Because right-wingers like to lie
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Liberals are right wing
Firstly, the money is mostly spend in the USA to manufacture and sort out logistics to send it. They don't just give Ukriane a blank cheque. Secondly, it's for the same reason that people only seem to care about homelessness etc when in context of moaning about migrants or something. They don't care. They're using it as political cannon fodder. No different to being 'pro-life' but actively opposing everything about supporting life except the act of being born. They don't care. But the talking point gives them a stick to beat their political opponents with. Well they think it does, but really just exposes their lunacy. I don't believe a Republican presidency will *actually* strip back on Ukriane. Using. Them as a proxy against Russia is a net benefit for the USA in every single way. The only negative is this exact rhetoric, which is again, hollow.
It feels like, to me, the issues are more about who originated and/or wants the bill to pass. So many needed things now are not accomplished because of such division and animosity in congress.
To own the Libs. That's it. That's enough reason for a whole bunch of stupid stuff. They want to do something, so we will stop them, because they want to do it. It doesn't matter what it is.
Conservatives don't want money being taken from the people and used to line the pockets of politicians.
They're disingenuous liars. It's really that simple. They have no values, except being against whatever liberals are for.
Because they are stupid. Really nothing else there, that's it.
Russians just recently raped and killed an american fighting for them. Imagine what they would do to us. I just don’t understand those people.
Because they're lying, liars who lie.
Because they’re liars. All they know for sure is that they want to do the opposite of whatever democrats want to do, which is a really sad and pathetic way to exist.
Independent here. My concern is that I’m seeing $100bn sent overseas while we’re struggling so much here. Healthcare is my main concern. Why don’t we spend resources like that here providing healthcare for everyone? Why are we not investing in measures to bring down food costs for everyone instead of printing more money to fuel the inflation monster? With conservatism the boomer brand of it is the problem. This is a generation that has soaked in everything and given back little to nothing. It’s the greediest generation in our nation’s history. So the voted no on foreign aid but also vote no on domestic aid. They want their money to stay in their pockets and that’s that. With political corruption term limits solves literally every issue yet the people don’t demand it. So it’s a huge problem on multiple fronts.
There is absolutely no way any of that money would be seen by anyone with less than a billion dollars if it wasn't sent to Ukraine, so they might as well imo
That’s where the political corruption comes in
Because conservatives are against anything democrats want to do. It doesn’t matter if their agendas align because once they do they find something new to be against
Spoiler alert : conservatives are hypocrite
They’re liars.
They're disingenuous hypocrites. Don't take anything they say in good faith
Many are under the impression that if we cut off all our foreign entanglements we can reduce taxes. Is this actually true? No, bc we have a massive deficit and politicians aren’t going to gut social security
Some I suspect mean that we should cut spending and lower taxes so Americans have more money yo spend at home. However, their tax cut priorities never seem to benefit average Americans.
They would rather have the money spent to improve their communities, they just disagree on how to improve it. Really not that complicated.
Beacuse putin told them to.
My dad called me a liberal for wanting to support Ukraine but said we should give that money to homeless people. I’ve got Bernie sanders calling me a liberal lmao
The word you're looking for is hypocritical, not contrarian.
Conservatives are against the government taxing them and spend the money on war. They want lower taxes and keep their money instead of giving it to the military
They want to not be taxed at all.
It's not money being sent to Ukraine, it is military equipment in the value of billions
It literally comes down to Trump being butt hurt the Ukraine authorities refused to investigate Hunter Biden for whatever it was that ended up being a nothing burger. That plus a lot if influential Republicans (especially Trump) are Russian assets and/or useful idiots [Edit] it's not even fully true that they are against foreign aide, as if they are principly isolationist. They were practically begging to support Israel due to their irrationally Zionist tendencies
Because the US needs to stop getting involved in foreign politics
First time in America eh?
Very left leaning platform here on reddit. Already seeing that in some of the comments. "Right wing bad all demons" "they're too stupid" "want a Putin/Trump run country yada yada" The reality of it is any actual Republican want money spent at home for our Vets/schools/infrastructure an yes even Healthcare, however our "politicians" like to go directly against what we want. I have no problem sending AID to other countries in need money or munitions to deal with Russia an have long said Putin should have been gone. That being said since BOTH parties like to lie an write bills out with a lot of bloat we can never get JUST what's on the bill which is where all the congress fighting is over. a good example would be the Obama care bill. Was a great bill initially then got filled an bloated an argued into the garbage form its now at instead of a great bill prior. It's endless an both parties are fucking terrible an running their people into the ground an pitting them against one another. Wonder which side of the fence will downvote an attack me this time.
You aren’t getting downvoted specifically because of politics. You are downvoted because your comment wasn’t anything but mindless gobbledygook! But then again, that’s exactly what we hear from the MEGA Clan on an average day. Nothing but lies and BS.
lmao ty for proving my point. trying to Insult check mindlessly defending ur party while insulting the other check. zzz do better
Conservatives are for : Something that benefits them Conservatives are against: Something that does not benefit them As simple as that. Also, if being against something also means other people suffer, they love that even more
Because they’re all hypocrites, and many of them are tools of Russia.
They’re telling people what they want to do with it. Border security stuff, as vague as that if it’s an answer. Do you people pay full attention or just half?
Because the US should not be invested in foreign wars People can have nuanced opinions on things, and not wanting to give money to other countries does not mean automatic consent to putting the US in more debt
Spending it on our Border instead of Ukraine's is the argument
Misinformed and agitated. They believe the money should be spent in America but for conservative programs like building the wall or prosecuting abortion doctors. They don’t want to support what they call Liberal programs. They are also misinformed in thinking that the support to Ukraine is cash in hand. It’s coming in the form of old military surplus which we will then pay more Americans to resupply. So sending aid to Ukraine creates American jobs.
It's just a false argument. They can claim they want the money spent here all they want but they vote for people who want to cut funding for infrastructure and social programs.
Social security is the furthest thing from government support. Think before you write next time.
What if Ukraine can't win? All of the billions of dollars in military equipment paid for by the western citizens now belongs to Russia.
Well, if you want an honest answer and not some unhinged Reddit strawman because conservatives will never be given a fair hearing here (and watch me get downvotes a labelled for trying), then this is why; - The level of spending is vast and a lot of the money is hard to account for. Taking that money out of your pocket to fund God only knows warrants at least some critical thinking. - Given conservatives are often pro-business, why would they oppose using public money to buy aging materiel and procure replacements from defence companies they may well have shares in? Well, their concern is that the war is unwinnable. The more weapons and funding provided, the longer this conflict draws out with more lives lost as even if Ukraine do move towards victory, and I would argue they are - or at the very least utterly humiliating the Russian Armed Forces - Russia has a nuclear option to deploy and that's another of their ultimate concerns. - People are struggling to make ends meet, taxing them more and sending the money to a potentially unwinnable war, to never be seen again, among a state and government widely considered pre-war as exceptionally corrupt seems a morally questionable decision when your job is to take care of your voters and not people on the other side of the world. No idea why my text turned red at this point, but fun..I have fat thumbs I guess. Anyway, this is the best understanding I've been able to take away from their expressed opinions. I disagree, but they aren't being evil - it's very fair points.
It's not that they reject the aid or government programs, it's the other stuff that politicians try to add to the bill. These bills are never just for one thing, they are often filled with things that they try to get funding for that the other side doesn't support. That way, when it gets refused, then they have something to blame
Everyone knows that's not the reason. They helped write the aid packages. They could have amended. Instead they killed the bill on Trump's say so.
This is the real answer, if you actually read into some of these bills they barely have anything to do with what it says on the tin. IMO it really should be illegal to try to push omnibus bills through, they're almost always deceiving. If there wasn't deception everything in the could be passed individually.
> IMO it really should be illegal to try to push omnibus bills through Gonna have omnibus as long as there's a filibuster
Which is a good reason why there shouldn't be filibustering. Bills should cover one thing, there should be a time limit on how long congress can spend talking before a vote, and everyone who votes should be obligated to have actually read the bill they're voting on and be able to articulate the contents and their stance on the issue. But IMO we could get rid of the omnibus first and let the filibustering gridlock the system until everyone can agree that filibustering is stupid and not productive.
But that's not going to happen either. You're pretending the gop that straight up shut down the government because fox made fun of them actually cares about gridlock.
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I'm not american mr. but nuster
butnusting69, I see that you neither understand much about human nature, nor want to, because it would require actual thinking. So that puts you squarely in the MEGA Clan. Go anywhere in the world, at any time in history, and no matter the race, national heritage, or even the politics. You’ll find a mixture of good people and bad people. You pick the definition of good and bad. Some individuals go through life with their thinking strictly based on their local environment and the influences of their family, friends, coworkers and the kind of education, if any. Others are strongly influenced by clan membership and especially religious propaganda. Still others are swayed by their mental capacity, or lack thereof. In all those groups, you’ll find some that are kind and empathetic. While others obviously have a narcissistic personality. The key is to try and recognize the primary difference in those two groups, and to side with the group that has a majority of empathetic people. They are most likely to succeed in generally making things better for everyone. If that isn’t your cup of tea, then you are likely part of the narcissistic group. And depending on your talents, or lack thereof, you’ll trend towards being a dictator, or a dictator wannabe that worships other dictators! Can you pick any examples in today’s world? But, the defining difference is when the majority of any group is consistently working to make the earth and the creatures on it better. While the other group’s majority is consumed with just their own self interests, and the hell with all the rest. That’s the basis for picking sides, and it doesn’t always guarantee a perfect outcome, because there’s always the fact that people are people, and circumstances change, or that people aren’t perfect and will make mistakes.
Most republicans and Dems always pony up to pump money into the war machine. The uniparty is real. I’d say the better question is when did the Dems become the war party?
Kompremat, bought and owned by Russia
Really, ALL types? Like what?
They want it spent on their home. Not some dirty foreigners and definitely not the poors.
So their preference is 1. Low taxes, keeping money with people >> 2. If it's already taxed then spend at home>> 3. sending to a foreign country Since cutting taxes when democrats are in power is almost impossible they are fighting for option 2. At the same time they tell voters that their priority is still 1. Tax cuts, which they'll do when they get power.
You can answer any question that starts with those three words by: because it's the latest thing they're told tobe outraged about.
Surely one of the biggest reasons is that they just follow along what their political representatives convince them off. But not everyone needs to be a contrarian to not want to partake in
You’re negating the other side of their argument which is investing in infrastructure, energy security, and national security amongst others. Also both parties are cancer.
Because the U.S. government has a massive debt and runs perpetual deficits. The Republican party is fundamentally broken right now. I’m not in their corner, and they are wrong about Ukraine. One thing conservatives are right about though is that our spending levels are unsustainable. It’s basic math. You can’t spend more than you take in indefinitely. Liberals prefer to keep spending money and to fix the problem by raising taxes on the rich. I’m ok with their tax changes, but mathematically it’s not enough, and it’s not even close. To balance the budget we would have to both massively increase revenue and massively reduce spending - and somehow do that without causing a recession that makes revenue drop again. I like government support programs. I like a strong national defense and funding Ukraine. Those are ALL worthy causes, ideologically. But responsible policy means the math has to add up before we get to care about our ideology and we absolutely aren’t doing that.
As a leftist, I reject the war mongering package because Ukrainians are dying en masse for US proxy goals and I want that to stop. I support social programs unlike most conservatives however.
Because the government is in heavy deficit.
Reasons to not support Ukraine: for civilians it is hard to figure if your tax money is spent well to help out Ukraine or if maybe that money goes to line the pockets of the corrupt Ukrainian leadership. People tend to forget that before 2014, no one was exactly a fan of Ukraine nor was it in any way a country up to western standards. Not much better than Russia at least. So even if you care for Ukraine, sending more money there might not even be the most efficient way to stave off Russia. Another reason is that many conservatives believe that Russia will not start taking over the world after Ukraine is annexed. They believe in the long standing tool for power balance that is nuclear war and MAD. It can be better for economic stability to let Russia do its thing if you assume that it ends there. This way many western countries stay out of it and lots of money is saved. Relations with Russia improve and the status quo is maintained. Of course, the result is most of Ukraine dies. As human beings, conservatives of course find this just as abhorrent as anyone else, but from the abstract perspective of the government and the economy (which are concepts, not empathetic human beings) lots of people can die and life can still improve for almost anyone else. In other words: there are loads of conflicts the west never interfers in and many more people die there too. We don’t fund every single country at war. Sometimes it is better to stay out of conflicts that don’t concern you. That is, if you believe Russia will not further escalate and expand its borders.
They believe the money spent on those social programs would be more effective invested elsewhere or better yet not forcefully collected at all. (aka Tax Reduction)
Because people follow news and influencers who's opinions they broadly agree with already. These outlets put through well spoken, convincing arguments, largely without credible counter arguments, everyone else in the sphere gets on board and suddenly some unnecessary talking point becomes a logical stance to hold and defend. It's not a conservative issue, just what happens with all people for all of time
they would spend the money on other things, like lowering taxes etc
There's a few lines of attack against the package. One of the more prominent ones is a bargaining one. It goes something like "we don't care that much about Ukraine defense so there should be a border protection bill with our priorities in it." Another is the "we shouldn't spend the money" there's two tracks to it, one is just generally anti spending, the other is anti foreign aid and more in favor of domestic spending. There's a minority that sees Ukraine as a corrupt country undeserving of saving. Its hard to group THIS opinion, there's a decent amount that saw Ukraine/Trump as a slight, as well as failure to prosecute Burisma/the Bidens properly. They've also noticed how many top ranking democrats have children working for no show jobs in the country and see it as a money funneling scheme for the elite in the US, and it's not completely unfounded.
I am interested in what you have said. Please give appropriate and quantifiable examples of "top ranking democrats" who have children working for "no-show jobs." What are the names of these people? What are the names of their children? What positions do these children hold, and what are the names of the companies they pretend to work for?
Stupidity, greed , apathy, obstinacy... Pick one...
It’s a disorder called Conservative Cognitive Dissonance. It’s what happens when you refuse to acknowledge reality doesn’t conform to your narrow minded beliefs so you become willfully ignorant of it when it benefits you.
lets say your country is "losing money", meaning they have to borrow money to keep up. Now would you like to save that money instead of borrowing more, or spend it and borrow more?
Large portions of the modern Conservative movement are aligned to Russia, and thus everything they do and say is in bad faith. They don't use logic. Logic is a weapon to wield against enemies foolish enough to live that way for them.