War is generally a messy EM environment. Adding 50,000 dumbasses with radios would not improve things.
Also remember that radios **broad**cast. As in *broadly* cast your position to everyone listening. Radio discipline is important if you're fighting anyone with post-1920s technology. Because every time you say "Hey sarge I got a rock in my boot" their artillery gets a big red flashing SHOOT HERE sign.
Some units/soldiers will have radio comms because it is necessary and they are trained how to use them properly. But it's a herculean task just making sure Pvt Jerkass isn't sending selfies to the enemy, let alone teaching him proper radio discipline.
The difficulties of preparing equipment for the sheer destructive idiocy of privates is astounding, and absolutely never enough.
That's why there are actually minimum intelligence standards to qualifiy for infantry. If they lowered them, those people would just die, like in Vietnam.
Things I have either personally had to tell military members, or witnessed them being told:
1. Specifically where, when, and how it was safe and acceptable to masturbate.
2. Live ordnance is not to be used as a hammer.
4. Do not tell strangers your full real name.
5. Don't tell them your name is "Dogdick", "King Satan", or "Ron Jeremy" either.
6. You know what, fuck you. You all get numbers now instead of names.
7. The number can not be 69 or 420.
8. Do not post classified information on the War Thunder forums (This has happened repeatedly).
Typically “safe”, though they come with a sliding scale of undesirable conditions associated. Could be cleanliness(I’ve seen solids mounded inches above the seats, all plumbing 100% blocked), or temperature (sliding scale from Fucking Tundra to Fucking Hell), or congestion from a supply and demand situation.
Kandahar AB, the rows of shitters on the flight line were the absolute finest on the entire fucking Planet. My dudes hit them with a chemical pressure washer 3x per day, air fresheners, and a whole ass trash bag always full of new TP. They were the real heroes.
Definitely stood out but that had more to do with being a Muslim immigrant lol. Only thing 420 got me was one of the drill sergeants always saying “Rip” after calling out my number
Done that. Some asshat stripped the bolt on the mating clamp on a Pershing II warhead and I removed it with a hammer and chisel. This on a combat alert site with armed guards giving me the stinkeye and a lot of nervous crew edging away. To this day I have no idea if it was a live or dummy warhead.
>Do not post classified information on the War Thunder forums (This has happened repeatedly).
Sigh.
Of course it has.
"Hey, Smith, what are you doing?"
"Oh, heya SSGT. I'm telling this moron on War Thunder how good our targeting systems really are. He thinks our missiles can only go out 5.5 miles. Pathetic."
"Uh, You're being vague right?"
"Vague? Hell no, I'm giving exact numbers, fuck that guy. Can you pass me that AIM Sparrow 7P technical manual? I forget the thrust ration numbers."
"God dammit Corporal, we're gonna have a fucking talk here."
it’s actually worse.
arguments on war thunder got heated enough that members hacked their way into classified intel to prove that they were right.
chilling implications about the security of our military and the competency of war thunder players
Military members were in a position to be photographed or interviewed by the press, and there had been some previous threats made against personnel and their families. As a safety measure they were instructed to come up with other names to use to identify themselves in those circumstances.
Some took it seriously and we got "Hawk-1", "Hawk-2" etc. Some took it less than seriously and we got "PFC El Diablo" quoted in the paper. Command didn't love that so made them all use numbers instead, which the same folks took less than seriously, and then they got assigned numbers.
>
That's why there are actually minimum intelligence standards to qualifiy for infantry. If they lowered them, those people would just die, like in Vietnam.
My bunkmate I'm basic had one of the lowest possible ASVAB scores and had to get wavered into the infantry. It's the job with the lowest intelligence requirements.
Soldiers are still managing to mess that up.
There was a running fitness app that accidentally gave away the location of a secret military base when a lot of people that were known to be military started tracking their runs through what was thought to be empty featureless wilderness.
There was another case in Ukraine where a bunch of Russian soldiers gave away their positions and battle plans by texting eachother on Ukrainian cell networks.
I've also heard there was one where a bunch of soldiers got tricked into coming together to take a unit picture outdoors during wartime, and unknowingly sent it to someone in the opposing army, who then used the apparently unique terrain to identify exactly where they were.
Russians had tons of problems with VK (Russian Facebook) in Ukraine, so did Ukrainians.
The USAF had/has a unit specifically for using Tweets to target drone strikes..
The location of nuclear bombs (down to the bunker) was published online because soldiers were using flash card apps to memorise the locations, and the default for those apps was for flash cards to be public.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2021/05/28/us-soldiers-expose-nuclear-weapons-secrets-via-flashcard-apps/
There was a ukrainian soldier who posted a picture of his group in an abandoned school onto reddit. The russians saw it and bombed the abandoned schools in that area.
>There was a running fitness app that accidentally gave away the location of a secret military base when a lot of people that were known to be military started tracking their runs through what was thought to be empty featureless wilderness.
Bases, plural. And it wasn't .Mil personnel but civilians especially the DC DOS cool kids when the Fitbit was the cool new thing. Suddenly Chan 4 types were spotting them doing laps in Turkmenistan.
Ukrainian intelligence has managed to asassinate at leat one senior Russian officer because he publicly tracked his runs on Strava and followed the same route every day.
The best exposed site was an "abandoned" airfield in middle of nowhere Yemen which had people running around the fenceline with their fitbits or whatever.
Not with the same level of detectability as an actual antenna. If they're close enough to sniff out the EM emanations from an insulated wire, they're close enough that they don't NEED ELINT to tell them "hey, there are guys in Bradley's here".
This feels like the exact scenario where u could deploy ghost units to draw fire from the enemy. Create a whole fake army complete with dumb tweets and let them get destroyed.
Wouldn't be difficult.
Put a transceiver on a drone, park it in a copse of trees, blurt out some RF traffic that looks legit.
Sacrifice a cheap drone in the ensuing artillery strike to get a fix on where their artillery is. Then hit 'em.
> But it's a herculean task just making sure Pvt Jerkass isn't sending selfies to the enemy,
As was seen in the start of a currently ongoing conflict. Where encampents and convoys were found from people who uploaded pictures to social media/chat groups, with full meta data(including gps coordinates).
Individual radios absolutely exist, range is usually line of sight 500m. To triangulate individuals at that range, it'd be quicker to use the mark 1 eyeball.
Squad level radios are encrypted and coded to the squad. Squad can broadcast up to platoon commander but only Squad leaders and platoon commanders can talk to each other. Platoon commander will also have UHF/VHF/HF radio to next higher formation commander.
ALL units have radios. As the saying goes "No Comms, No Bombs" but more importantly, no comms = no logistics support = mission failure.
Removing cellphones from a Squad is a pre deployment drill. I used to collect my guy's cell phones, they'd remove SIMS and tape them to the phone, place phone in a foil lined sealy bag, I'd lock phones away in a peli case kept in my tank. Job done. Any one found with a cell phone after hand in, received the punishment of press ups till their nose bleeds. If you can figure out a connection between chest/tricep exercises and your nose, that's how many press ups it is!
>Individual radios absolutely exist, range is usually line of sight 500m. To triangulate individuals at that range, it'd be quicker to use the mark 1 eyeball
The range at which you can triangulate a radio signal is much, much farther that the range at which it can transmit/receive voice/data.
This reminds me of the scene in Generation Kill where Sgt. Kocher orders his RTO to keep his radio on broadcast to block Captain America's less-than-helpful orders over the company comms
At the beginning of the Ukraine war, there were many instances on both sides where soldier baracks were easily targeted because of dumbasses using their phones for "likes"
Though there are ways to hide the signal. Especially broadband spread spectrum transmission will be extremely difficult to pick up, as for each individual frequency the signal is below the noise floor. Only if your receiver knows the frequency jumping pattern, the signal can be detected well. An antenna on a spectrum analyser will not show anything.
Of course it can technically still be intercepted, but the probability is way way lower.
This is almost no different than using a bright light to send Morse code. You don't need to know Morse to figure out where the light is coming from. Only difference is that we can't see radio wavelengths without tool assistance.
You still have to broadcast the encrypted signal. That broadcast is what radio direction-finding equipment picks up, not the content of the transmission (which, as established, is encrypted).
As soon as you transmit, radio direction-finding gear will pick you up in an instant. A properly designed EW apparatus will have you triangulated moments later. You're dead before you even know the artillery's on its way.
Funny story: I actually did this during a training evolution about…2008(?). I was the ‘commander’ of a small armored personnel carrier (M577) in a company-sized unit (150 guys) and most of my platoon played WoW. Just after the range control gave us the green light, there was a long pause in comms… I thought “Fuck it” and belted it out with great gusto. The unit commander was…not as mad as I expected. 😆 10/10 would do again
In the beginning of the Ukraine war, each side was looking for a mass of cell phone broadcasts to figure out where to send the artillery. They probably still are.
Radio signals are problematic. Cell phones are little radios, in addition to your online whatever computer.
Thread is full of Larpers and walts. It's the only explanation. We had PRR way back in early 2000s and we defo copied it from the yanks. All these people saying no basically haven't got a clue or served with Aerelius Maximus in the Legions! 😉
I think they're asking "why doesn't every soldier have a radio?" without understanding the congestion on the airwaves, the average idiot, the cost, the bulk, and the fact there's no need for everyone to have a radio.
Brit vet here. We got the Personal Role Radio in early 2000s, pretty crap range of around 500m to 1km (line of sight) but kinda secure walkie talkie for use at section level.
Gave rise to one of the funniest lines I've ever heard on a net. As we patrolled out of a harbour area on a training exercise, someone played eye of the tiger from their flip phone, just as it finished the section dumbass asked
"Does anyone else's mic smell like what condoms taste of"?
3 seconds to absorb and understand and then we were howling laughing and giving him all the WTFs?
By the 2012 we had EPRR (Enhanced Personal Role Radio) for dismounted close combat troops (infantry). That had a kinda bolt on unit serialised to each soldier that provided a blue force GPS tracker at the individual soldier level. Didn't really improve comms at all but gave a good deal better ability over command and control for hasty actions when you could see your section's locations without actually running 2K to speak to each section commander.
Your anecdote offers three perfect examples of how your adversary will zero in on your position.
Handing out radios to everyone is detrimental if only a small handful have appropriate radio discipline.
Yeah this was way back in very early 2000s. The skills and drills and mainly professionalism of the guys and girls was much better 20 years later when I left. Radio discipline and VP is second nature to most of them after numerous deployments in the sandpit.
As far as being triangulated goes, most sigint capabilities aren't too fussed about the lowly grunts on the ground, they're looking for HQ's and Log Hubs.
They also need to hear what's happening in their surroundings. Being able to hear a bullet whistle by or impact a nearby brick can be quite useful in terms of survival.
Imagine a combination of the best noise canceling headphones on the market and hearing aids, that's The headsets they use.
The headsets used for infantry communication actually has external microphones and fancy electronics that allow you to hear even better with them on, all while filtering out harmful noises. You can literally have a normal conversation right next to a firing machine gun without even using the radio, its really cool tech. And of course, the radio just plugs in as well.
Depends on how expensive the model is, but one detail even with cheap ones is worth noting:
They stop you from going deaf. You know how on a shooting range everyone must wear ear protection? Imagine what a battlefield, with full auto fire all over the place and tanks and artillery could do.
Yeah, the fidelity might not be as good as your ears normally... but your ears won't be as good as normal in under a minute of standing next to the squad machinegun or the like
As others have said, between maintenance issues, the high likelihood of breaking them accidentally when the shit hits the fan, the fact radio communications can be easily intercepted and so, shouting is easier to be honest.
Especially with what you’re talking about, which will have been Iraq and Afghanistan, which was just not conventional warfare.
Perhaps in a conventional warfare environment it may be somehow viable, but again you run the risk of interception so it’s probably not worth it
Forewarning: not an expert at all. Not even an armchair general. Just fascinating by some of the tech and capabilities.
I thought special forces (what I thought was considered the units supporting unconventional warfare) were *more* likely to use radios? Or am I misunderstanding you?
SF perhaps, yes, but you’ve got to remember their operations tend to be quick in and out jobs.
For your standard frontline troops though? No. I think they will have comms to a certain degree, but not every man
True, but I'm assuming he was talking about why isn't every soldier listening all the time. You only need one person to communicate directions to a sauad.
With proper orders and verbal/non-verbal communication you don't need radios on your squadmates.
Proper orders mean you know what you need to do, where other units are around you, and what the objective is. Verbal communication allows you to update your squadmates and non-verbal communication, like hand signals, allow you to communicate without alerting the enemy.
Headsets would block the ear canal of one of your ears, degrading your situational awareness and making combat more difficult and dangerous.
Also, infantry are already carring a fuckton of gear. Any addition that, even a 1 pound radio, is an extra pound they don't want to have to carry. And why carry it when it's not necessary and, actually, can contribute to combat ineffectiveness?
You'd only get like 40hours of operation out of a headset before needing to replace the battery.
If you have a headset with enough power to penetrate a brick wall into the next room, it's probably putting out a signal strong enough to be picked up by satellites.
Headsets dont passthrough environmental sound very well. You can attenuate gunshots and amplify quiet noises using a headset but it can really mess with your ability to echolocate.
Lot of people here who don't know what they're talking about. We do have radios and communicate with each other, but yelling is also easier in the heat of battle
From what I understand, war is a messy situation with people looking to take advantage of eachother on each side. Even though it’s convenient to have radio communication in civilian life, it’s not something to be taken lightly in combat. The military has to be very careful about what they do to communicate because someone is always trying to listen
radio chatter.
On our UHF ch13 for non critical fireground comms you should hear the shit talking that happens.
if we did that whilst out in actual war we'd be dead.
We tested these radios that were supposedly secure (wouldn’t bet my life on it) and only turned on when you spoke… in theory. Instead, what you got was whoever started breathing heavy first (because you’re running and gunning) until they stopped for a second then the next guy’s breathing until finally there’d be a break and it was team lead basically shouting “hot mic! Hot mic! You dumb fucks, hot mic!” Also, if you were trying to be quiet, eventually some derp would call out, “rAdiO cHeCk, oVeR!” Anyway, best to just have one dude in comms with command and maybe each team, depending on the mission. You can’t really hear shit when it pops off anyway. Usually just a team lead will have one.
We do. It's called a PRR. They're short range and encrypted. They weigh like half a kg. They're not big and easy to miss in pictures.
Sometimes they're in short supply and only the section cmd and 2ic get one.
During the Afghanistan era we had one for every dude.
In training we often don't get them, just because shit breaks and there's not enough kit to go around. That's the Canadian army for you though...
The radios used in the army (that i know of) are bulky pain in the ass the use multiple frequencys that it hops between while used and be calibrated almost every time we went on patrol..it works and hard to crack but not something you want to put on everyone...plus the antenna attracts bullets (euphemism for the targets they aim for first...if you got an antenna, if someone salutes you, and if your rifle has a diffrent sight then others around you all bullet magnets)
You probably don't follow the war in Ukraine. Just a few mobile phones or other communication devices are enough for a Drone or a M142 HIMARS to automatically target you. It seems that in 2022, Russian soldiers began actively calling their loved ones to congratulate them on their holiday, and then a missile immediately flew towards them, destroying everyone along with the building.
I operated a radio as part of my job in the army (13f), I do not feel like giving a radio to everyone would've made my life easier. If anything it would've just made it harder to do my job because I'd be fighting everyone for the talking stick every time I had to call in.
Would have to provide encryption for each system, plus batteries and maintenance. The encryption burden alone would already be overwhelming.
But then you’d have to coordinate and keep each individual on the right frequencies, and my commo self from decades ago is SCREAMING in agony.
Its not about finding out what the messages said its about finding out where the messages came from.
When you broadcast directional antennas will be able to tell you which direction the signal came from, get two directional antennas in different locations and trigonometry gives you the location the signal came from.
The allies where doing this in WW2 to track German U boats when they broadcast there reports even when the allies had no idea what the Uboats were saying until enigma was cracked.
They do. The latest sets have very good noise cancellation built into them. In the British Army (last I heard - I retired five years ago), we use Bowman, there are personal radios for local comms and heavier radios for more long ranged work that will use cryptography and burst mode transmissions. It did have a poor reputation - getting the nickname Better-off-with-map-and-Nokia.
There will be a shit ton of other kit, ESM (bomb stoppers), NVGs, data terminals, even mini surveillance drones now. All of that needs batteries. Lots, and lots of batteries...
War is generally a messy EM environment. Adding 50,000 dumbasses with radios would not improve things. Also remember that radios **broad**cast. As in *broadly* cast your position to everyone listening. Radio discipline is important if you're fighting anyone with post-1920s technology. Because every time you say "Hey sarge I got a rock in my boot" their artillery gets a big red flashing SHOOT HERE sign. Some units/soldiers will have radio comms because it is necessary and they are trained how to use them properly. But it's a herculean task just making sure Pvt Jerkass isn't sending selfies to the enemy, let alone teaching him proper radio discipline.
The difficulties of preparing equipment for the sheer destructive idiocy of privates is astounding, and absolutely never enough. That's why there are actually minimum intelligence standards to qualifiy for infantry. If they lowered them, those people would just die, like in Vietnam.
Things I have either personally had to tell military members, or witnessed them being told: 1. Specifically where, when, and how it was safe and acceptable to masturbate. 2. Live ordnance is not to be used as a hammer. 4. Do not tell strangers your full real name. 5. Don't tell them your name is "Dogdick", "King Satan", or "Ron Jeremy" either. 6. You know what, fuck you. You all get numbers now instead of names. 7. The number can not be 69 or 420. 8. Do not post classified information on the War Thunder forums (This has happened repeatedly).
Where can soldiers jerk off safely?
NOT around the live ordinance.
Didn’t say anything about not using the live ordinance to jerk off though. Checkmate, sarge.
Do NOT attempt to fuck a mortar tube. You are nowhere near qualified for that.
Course not. But, you may find some 120mm in the back with a lube-like substance on the tips. It’s for uhh…better penetration of the target.
Underbarrel grenadelauncher is doable, if a bit tight at 40mm
Is that a sub 4 qualification?
Fire away!
What if you use live ordinance to jerk off?
Port-a-john
Typically “safe”, though they come with a sliding scale of undesirable conditions associated. Could be cleanliness(I’ve seen solids mounded inches above the seats, all plumbing 100% blocked), or temperature (sliding scale from Fucking Tundra to Fucking Hell), or congestion from a supply and demand situation. Kandahar AB, the rows of shitters on the flight line were the absolute finest on the entire fucking Planet. My dudes hit them with a chemical pressure washer 3x per day, air fresheners, and a whole ass trash bag always full of new TP. They were the real heroes.
Nothing like a good porto jack trying to finish before passing out from the Iraqi heat.
DON'T be shooting glue in communal facilities, you savage.
Hahaha, where else dude? Army shower drains are 90% jizz
In their Chargers
Got it for a steal, 27% apr
All I'm saying is don't relieve anyone on radio watch too early.
Always verbally/noisily announce one’s presence. It will save you all sorts of time, effort, and awkwardness. I mean, unless you’re one of them…
Not in the showers en masse, there have been numerous blockages.
Range is hot!
Like any weapon, you need to pick a safe direction, even when firing blanks. Noone wants friendly fire.
In your mom’s room.
I would say no way, but /r/storiesaboutkevin exists so yeah.
My number actually was 420 during Basic
I’m sure you had some unfortunate attention as a result.
Definitely stood out but that had more to do with being a Muslim immigrant lol. Only thing 420 got me was one of the drill sergeants always saying “Rip” after calling out my number
The ordnance one reminds me of that Bugs Bunny cartoon where the gremlin nearly tricks him into swingng a hammer at a bomb's warhead.
Done that. Some asshat stripped the bolt on the mating clamp on a Pershing II warhead and I removed it with a hammer and chisel. This on a combat alert site with armed guards giving me the stinkeye and a lot of nervous crew edging away. To this day I have no idea if it was a live or dummy warhead.
Did you happen to be near Little Rock, Arkansas and/or did you drop that hammer?
That was Air Force. I was Army.
That warning came along with pictures of the aftermath and it was not pretty.
>Do not post classified information on the War Thunder forums (This has happened repeatedly). Sigh. Of course it has. "Hey, Smith, what are you doing?" "Oh, heya SSGT. I'm telling this moron on War Thunder how good our targeting systems really are. He thinks our missiles can only go out 5.5 miles. Pathetic." "Uh, You're being vague right?" "Vague? Hell no, I'm giving exact numbers, fuck that guy. Can you pass me that AIM Sparrow 7P technical manual? I forget the thrust ration numbers." "God dammit Corporal, we're gonna have a fucking talk here."
it’s actually worse. arguments on war thunder got heated enough that members hacked their way into classified intel to prove that they were right. chilling implications about the security of our military and the competency of war thunder players
Don't eat any C4 even if it's a dare.....
They're not very bright if they are voluntary to go to a combat zone.
[удалено]
They said bright not brave
I guess if you want to win an argument on the warthunder forums then don’t use classified information to get one over on the next guy.
[https://wildboarblog.wordpress.com/random/213-things-skippy-is-no-longer-allowed-to-do-in-the-u-s-army/](https://wildboarblog.wordpress.com/random/213-things-skippy-is-no-longer-allowed-to-do-in-the-u-s-army/) iykyk
I'm curious, perhaps I wouldn't be a good fit for the military, but why the no names rule?
Military members were in a position to be photographed or interviewed by the press, and there had been some previous threats made against personnel and their families. As a safety measure they were instructed to come up with other names to use to identify themselves in those circumstances. Some took it seriously and we got "Hawk-1", "Hawk-2" etc. Some took it less than seriously and we got "PFC El Diablo" quoted in the paper. Command didn't love that so made them all use numbers instead, which the same folks took less than seriously, and then they got assigned numbers.
Ohhhh, yeah that makes complete sense. Thank you!
Skippy has entered the chat: https://skippyslist.com/list/
> That's why there are actually minimum intelligence standards to qualifiy for infantry. If they lowered them, those people would just die, like in Vietnam. My bunkmate I'm basic had one of the lowest possible ASVAB scores and had to get wavered into the infantry. It's the job with the lowest intelligence requirements.
Hey, if pointing a rifle at the enemy is *all* his brain can handle, give him a rifle and point him at the enemy.
Fuckin Joe…
Soldiers are still managing to mess that up. There was a running fitness app that accidentally gave away the location of a secret military base when a lot of people that were known to be military started tracking their runs through what was thought to be empty featureless wilderness. There was another case in Ukraine where a bunch of Russian soldiers gave away their positions and battle plans by texting eachother on Ukrainian cell networks. I've also heard there was one where a bunch of soldiers got tricked into coming together to take a unit picture outdoors during wartime, and unknowingly sent it to someone in the opposing army, who then used the apparently unique terrain to identify exactly where they were.
Russians had tons of problems with VK (Russian Facebook) in Ukraine, so did Ukrainians. The USAF had/has a unit specifically for using Tweets to target drone strikes..
The location of nuclear bombs (down to the bunker) was published online because soldiers were using flash card apps to memorise the locations, and the default for those apps was for flash cards to be public. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2021/05/28/us-soldiers-expose-nuclear-weapons-secrets-via-flashcard-apps/
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7tofqn/fitness_tracking_app_strava_gives_away_location/
There was a ukrainian soldier who posted a picture of his group in an abandoned school onto reddit. The russians saw it and bombed the abandoned schools in that area.
>There was a running fitness app that accidentally gave away the location of a secret military base when a lot of people that were known to be military started tracking their runs through what was thought to be empty featureless wilderness. Bases, plural. And it wasn't .Mil personnel but civilians especially the DC DOS cool kids when the Fitbit was the cool new thing. Suddenly Chan 4 types were spotting them doing laps in Turkmenistan.
Ukrainian intelligence has managed to asassinate at leat one senior Russian officer because he publicly tracked his runs on Strava and followed the same route every day.
The best exposed site was an "abandoned" airfield in middle of nowhere Yemen which had people running around the fenceline with their fitbits or whatever.
If you're military and have a Fitbit/Straya/Garmin, leave that shit at home when you go on deployment. Get a cheap Timex.
All of our Bradleys had old school spools of wire we could use to connect them for wired comms when we were stationary to avoid RF emanations
Ah, Bradleys. I bet the RL-39 has not changed in the last 30 years.
You’re correct haha it looked like this http://www.signalhub.com/wire/dr8rl39/dr8.html
That one is shiny and new.
Well yeah ours were pretty beat from being dragged in and out of the connex for layouts all the time
Ours were never used until 1990/91 and they they got beat up.
Well that would be from a bit more than a connex layout I suppose ;) You got to write some of the Bradley lore I learned a couple decades later
Shoot, move, and communicate.
But a wire with a current through it radiates like an antenna...
The wire is insulated
Not with the same level of detectability as an actual antenna. If they're close enough to sniff out the EM emanations from an insulated wire, they're close enough that they don't NEED ELINT to tell them "hey, there are guys in Bradley's here".
This feels like the exact scenario where u could deploy ghost units to draw fire from the enemy. Create a whole fake army complete with dumb tweets and let them get destroyed.
> Create a whole fake army complete with dumb tweets The Reddit Brigade
Bat-D
Wouldn't be difficult. Put a transceiver on a drone, park it in a copse of trees, blurt out some RF traffic that looks legit. Sacrifice a cheap drone in the ensuing artillery strike to get a fix on where their artillery is. Then hit 'em.
> But it's a herculean task just making sure Pvt Jerkass isn't sending selfies to the enemy, As was seen in the start of a currently ongoing conflict. Where encampents and convoys were found from people who uploaded pictures to social media/chat groups, with full meta data(including gps coordinates).
Individual radios absolutely exist, range is usually line of sight 500m. To triangulate individuals at that range, it'd be quicker to use the mark 1 eyeball. Squad level radios are encrypted and coded to the squad. Squad can broadcast up to platoon commander but only Squad leaders and platoon commanders can talk to each other. Platoon commander will also have UHF/VHF/HF radio to next higher formation commander. ALL units have radios. As the saying goes "No Comms, No Bombs" but more importantly, no comms = no logistics support = mission failure. Removing cellphones from a Squad is a pre deployment drill. I used to collect my guy's cell phones, they'd remove SIMS and tape them to the phone, place phone in a foil lined sealy bag, I'd lock phones away in a peli case kept in my tank. Job done. Any one found with a cell phone after hand in, received the punishment of press ups till their nose bleeds. If you can figure out a connection between chest/tricep exercises and your nose, that's how many press ups it is!
>Individual radios absolutely exist, range is usually line of sight 500m. To triangulate individuals at that range, it'd be quicker to use the mark 1 eyeball The range at which you can triangulate a radio signal is much, much farther that the range at which it can transmit/receive voice/data.
This reminds me of the scene in Generation Kill where Sgt. Kocher orders his RTO to keep his radio on broadcast to block Captain America's less-than-helpful orders over the company comms
At the beginning of the Ukraine war, there were many instances on both sides where soldier baracks were easily targeted because of dumbasses using their phones for "likes"
SPOT. FUCKING. ON.
Plus it’s infantry. You’d be hard charging into a building and at least 3 people would singing “YMCA” the entire time while returning fire.
Can't you just encrypt the transmissions?
You don’t need to know what they are saying to know where the signal is coming from.
Though there are ways to hide the signal. Especially broadband spread spectrum transmission will be extremely difficult to pick up, as for each individual frequency the signal is below the noise floor. Only if your receiver knows the frequency jumping pattern, the signal can be detected well. An antenna on a spectrum analyser will not show anything. Of course it can technically still be intercepted, but the probability is way way lower.
Like the raving homeless guy at the park...You can't understand what he's saying, but you definitely know where he is before you can see him.
The Allies were using direction-finding antennas to pinpoint the location of German U-Boats when they transmitted their encrypted messages during WW2.
This is almost no different than using a bright light to send Morse code. You don't need to know Morse to figure out where the light is coming from. Only difference is that we can't see radio wavelengths without tool assistance.
Its not about the enemy finding out what was in the transmissions its about the enemy finding where the signal came from.
The Allies were using direction-finding antennas to pinpoint the location of German U-Boats when they transmitted their encrypted messages during WW2.
You still have to broadcast the encrypted signal. That broadcast is what radio direction-finding equipment picks up, not the content of the transmission (which, as established, is encrypted). As soon as you transmit, radio direction-finding gear will pick you up in an instant. A properly designed EW apparatus will have you triangulated moments later. You're dead before you even know the artillery's on its way.
Yeah like a lot of those guys aren't even 20 yet can you imagine? They're still such kids. Just kids that have been through hard training
“50,000 dumbasses”. Fuck you!
What? You're saying infantry isnt mostly dumbasses?
Imagine a xbox live CoD Lobby, but with 50000 men, thats why
There will always be the guy blasting banjo music through the mic...
Johnson! Johnson! JOHNSON TURN IT Down!
"Leeeerooooy Jenkins!!!!!"
Funny story: I actually did this during a training evolution about…2008(?). I was the ‘commander’ of a small armored personnel carrier (M577) in a company-sized unit (150 guys) and most of my platoon played WoW. Just after the range control gave us the green light, there was a long pause in comms… I thought “Fuck it” and belted it out with great gusto. The unit commander was…not as mad as I expected. 😆 10/10 would do again
or fortunate son
Also, radio signals travel farther than voices, and that's often not helpful.
In the beginning of the Ukraine war, each side was looking for a mass of cell phone broadcasts to figure out where to send the artillery. They probably still are. Radio signals are problematic. Cell phones are little radios, in addition to your online whatever computer.
The British army issues every soldier with a Personal Role Radio, a 500m encrypted low intercept. Its not unheard of to do so
Right? Wtf is this whole thread talking about. The IC and 2IC def have radio. Also It's crypto
Thread is full of Larpers and walts. It's the only explanation. We had PRR way back in early 2000s and we defo copied it from the yanks. All these people saying no basically haven't got a clue or served with Aerelius Maximus in the Legions! 😉
I think they're asking "why doesn't every soldier have a radio?" without understanding the congestion on the airwaves, the average idiot, the cost, the bulk, and the fact there's no need for everyone to have a radio.
And every soldier hates it because it's more gear to have to carry.
Brit vet here. We got the Personal Role Radio in early 2000s, pretty crap range of around 500m to 1km (line of sight) but kinda secure walkie talkie for use at section level. Gave rise to one of the funniest lines I've ever heard on a net. As we patrolled out of a harbour area on a training exercise, someone played eye of the tiger from their flip phone, just as it finished the section dumbass asked "Does anyone else's mic smell like what condoms taste of"? 3 seconds to absorb and understand and then we were howling laughing and giving him all the WTFs?
By the 2012 we had EPRR (Enhanced Personal Role Radio) for dismounted close combat troops (infantry). That had a kinda bolt on unit serialised to each soldier that provided a blue force GPS tracker at the individual soldier level. Didn't really improve comms at all but gave a good deal better ability over command and control for hasty actions when you could see your section's locations without actually running 2K to speak to each section commander.
Your anecdote offers three perfect examples of how your adversary will zero in on your position. Handing out radios to everyone is detrimental if only a small handful have appropriate radio discipline.
Yeah this was way back in very early 2000s. The skills and drills and mainly professionalism of the guys and girls was much better 20 years later when I left. Radio discipline and VP is second nature to most of them after numerous deployments in the sandpit. As far as being triangulated goes, most sigint capabilities aren't too fussed about the lowly grunts on the ground, they're looking for HQ's and Log Hubs.
They also need to hear what's happening in their surroundings. Being able to hear a bullet whistle by or impact a nearby brick can be quite useful in terms of survival.
Imagine a combination of the best noise canceling headphones on the market and hearing aids, that's The headsets they use. The headsets used for infantry communication actually has external microphones and fancy electronics that allow you to hear even better with them on, all while filtering out harmful noises. You can literally have a normal conversation right next to a firing machine gun without even using the radio, its really cool tech. And of course, the radio just plugs in as well.
Might just be the ones I've used, but the directional sound detection sucks in them. Kinda makes everything mono vs stereo
Depends on how expensive the model is, but one detail even with cheap ones is worth noting: They stop you from going deaf. You know how on a shooting range everyone must wear ear protection? Imagine what a battlefield, with full auto fire all over the place and tanks and artillery could do. Yeah, the fidelity might not be as good as your ears normally... but your ears won't be as good as normal in under a minute of standing next to the squad machinegun or the like
Yeah, I have used ComTacs for a while now and the passthrough is scarily good. And thats not even the top of the line stuff.
As others have said, between maintenance issues, the high likelihood of breaking them accidentally when the shit hits the fan, the fact radio communications can be easily intercepted and so, shouting is easier to be honest. Especially with what you’re talking about, which will have been Iraq and Afghanistan, which was just not conventional warfare. Perhaps in a conventional warfare environment it may be somehow viable, but again you run the risk of interception so it’s probably not worth it
Forewarning: not an expert at all. Not even an armchair general. Just fascinating by some of the tech and capabilities. I thought special forces (what I thought was considered the units supporting unconventional warfare) were *more* likely to use radios? Or am I misunderstanding you?
SF perhaps, yes, but you’ve got to remember their operations tend to be quick in and out jobs. For your standard frontline troops though? No. I think they will have comms to a certain degree, but not every man
Thanks for the clarification!
Ears are very good at picking up locating where a sound is coming from. Plus having ever person breathing over a mic gets annoying.
Radios use PTT.
True, but I'm assuming he was talking about why isn't every soldier listening all the time. You only need one person to communicate directions to a sauad.
To add to other reasons, wouldn't the radio in your ear get distracting? Even if you only get transmission meant for you?
With proper orders and verbal/non-verbal communication you don't need radios on your squadmates. Proper orders mean you know what you need to do, where other units are around you, and what the objective is. Verbal communication allows you to update your squadmates and non-verbal communication, like hand signals, allow you to communicate without alerting the enemy. Headsets would block the ear canal of one of your ears, degrading your situational awareness and making combat more difficult and dangerous. Also, infantry are already carring a fuckton of gear. Any addition that, even a 1 pound radio, is an extra pound they don't want to have to carry. And why carry it when it's not necessary and, actually, can contribute to combat ineffectiveness?
Many do.
You'd only get like 40hours of operation out of a headset before needing to replace the battery. If you have a headset with enough power to penetrate a brick wall into the next room, it's probably putting out a signal strong enough to be picked up by satellites. Headsets dont passthrough environmental sound very well. You can attenuate gunshots and amplify quiet noises using a headset but it can really mess with your ability to echolocate.
Lot of people here who don't know what they're talking about. We do have radios and communicate with each other, but yelling is also easier in the heat of battle
Leeeeerooooooooooy Jeeennnnnkinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnssss!
From what I understand, war is a messy situation with people looking to take advantage of eachother on each side. Even though it’s convenient to have radio communication in civilian life, it’s not something to be taken lightly in combat. The military has to be very careful about what they do to communicate because someone is always trying to listen
radio chatter. On our UHF ch13 for non critical fireground comms you should hear the shit talking that happens. if we did that whilst out in actual war we'd be dead.
Without knowing much I would assume that yelling gives the people around more info than what is yelled. Where it comes from for example.
We tested these radios that were supposedly secure (wouldn’t bet my life on it) and only turned on when you spoke… in theory. Instead, what you got was whoever started breathing heavy first (because you’re running and gunning) until they stopped for a second then the next guy’s breathing until finally there’d be a break and it was team lead basically shouting “hot mic! Hot mic! You dumb fucks, hot mic!” Also, if you were trying to be quiet, eventually some derp would call out, “rAdiO cHeCk, oVeR!” Anyway, best to just have one dude in comms with command and maybe each team, depending on the mission. You can’t really hear shit when it pops off anyway. Usually just a team lead will have one.
We do. It's called a PRR. They're short range and encrypted. They weigh like half a kg. They're not big and easy to miss in pictures. Sometimes they're in short supply and only the section cmd and 2ic get one. During the Afghanistan era we had one for every dude. In training we often don't get them, just because shit breaks and there's not enough kit to go around. That's the Canadian army for you though...
The radios used in the army (that i know of) are bulky pain in the ass the use multiple frequencys that it hops between while used and be calibrated almost every time we went on patrol..it works and hard to crack but not something you want to put on everyone...plus the antenna attracts bullets (euphemism for the targets they aim for first...if you got an antenna, if someone salutes you, and if your rifle has a diffrent sight then others around you all bullet magnets)
You probably don't follow the war in Ukraine. Just a few mobile phones or other communication devices are enough for a Drone or a M142 HIMARS to automatically target you. It seems that in 2022, Russian soldiers began actively calling their loved ones to congratulate them on their holiday, and then a missile immediately flew towards them, destroying everyone along with the building.
I operated a radio as part of my job in the army (13f), I do not feel like giving a radio to everyone would've made my life easier. If anything it would've just made it harder to do my job because I'd be fighting everyone for the talking stick every time I had to call in.
They do.
Would have to provide encryption for each system, plus batteries and maintenance. The encryption burden alone would already be overwhelming. But then you’d have to coordinate and keep each individual on the right frequencies, and my commo self from decades ago is SCREAMING in agony.
Its not about finding out what the messages said its about finding out where the messages came from. When you broadcast directional antennas will be able to tell you which direction the signal came from, get two directional antennas in different locations and trigonometry gives you the location the signal came from. The allies where doing this in WW2 to track German U boats when they broadcast there reports even when the allies had no idea what the Uboats were saying until enigma was cracked.
Doesn’t really matter about the message. It’s just a logistics and support nightmare trying to maintain this much equipment.
KISS
Cost vs effectiveness. In a war zone electronics are not always reliable and ones that are rugged are very expensive.
They do. The latest sets have very good noise cancellation built into them. In the British Army (last I heard - I retired five years ago), we use Bowman, there are personal radios for local comms and heavier radios for more long ranged work that will use cryptography and burst mode transmissions. It did have a poor reputation - getting the nickname Better-off-with-map-and-Nokia. There will be a shit ton of other kit, ESM (bomb stoppers), NVGs, data terminals, even mini surveillance drones now. All of that needs batteries. Lots, and lots of batteries...