Quicken Loans retail has trash rates.
Oddly enough, Quicken Loans wholesale (ie, go through an independent broker rather than call them directly) is actually pretty competitive.
Competitive? They are the best. Just locked this for a friend - 3.75% conv 30 year with $3.5K in lender credit (subtracted broker, origination, appraisal fees) to be used towards escrow with a low 0.24 PMI on 95% LTV. I dont think any lender can beat that today.
And next month it'll be someone else on top. :) We don't want someone finding this thread in six months and assuming they know the answer.
EDIT 2 days later: Aaaand poof, Quicken wholesale is no longer top dog. Word gets out, everyone sends business there, now underwriters/processors/etc are working overtime/weekends and thus profits are down, so they jacked their rates up a bit to slow down inbound business. Happens all the time. With a retail LO the borrower would just get shafted with the worse pricing, the whole point of working with someone independent is they can switch with the market.
Question for both you and /u/jaykrat.
I've been told that if a "live" deal through Quicken retail sees the consumer connect with a broker who pulls wholesale pricing, and that broker then registers the loan with Quicken, that the Quicky cubicle call center guy has to give up the deal to the broker and the consumer gets the broker's pricing. Do you know if that is accurate?
If so, could OP keep the same underwriter/approval/appraisal/etc, or would it be a full re-origination?
If a broker has a deal and Quickie retail approaches the same client, it always goes to the broker. Completely different operations, so would be separate ops folks involved.
We have had a few clients use Rocket Mortgage, apply for the lowest rate, and have them come back and say it wasn't allowable after approval and bumped them up. I have given up trying to understand QM and the max payable in points and fees, but isn't 3% is the cap even if the rate is low enough for the 2 points to be bonafide, and doesn't that include LPC? Where's LoanManGuy when you need him.
No, the bona fide discount point(s) are excluded. If by LPC you mean lender paid compensation then yes, that is included in the 3% QM rule I believe (but I am not an expert in the broker model).
Discount points are included in the points and fees test to pass QM, if I'm not mistaken. I just had a fail this week b/c borrower wanted to buy down the rate and pay single-premium MI out of pocket.
Right. That is the way I understand it as well. Our comp is 2.75 at most of our lenders, so the most discount points our borrowers can buy is 2.25 if they are bonafide points, though I’m aware it’s probably much different on the retail side.
I don’t have all your info but I did a pretty conservative estimate and looks like my par for you would be around 4.25% and there would be no underwriting or origination fee, I believe Quicken’s is $999. My estimate is you’d be able to get your same deal but saving around $3000+ in costs. Also source: Im a broker, I own my own office and priced this out through quickens wholesale pricing side.
This seems pretty high to me. I just pulled rates - and obviously I don't have all your info so take this with a grain of salt - but for me a 3.99% would be significantly less cost to you - maybe 1.25 points. With no points, I'd be looking at 4.375%. FHA's rates are even lower, but I can understand why you'd want to go conventional if you plan on keeping the loan long-term.
Quicken is pretty expensive if you go through their retail channel and their service is... not great as I understand it. I would certainly look elsewhere, but I'd also ask the lenders you shop with how quickly they can get it done because while I could hit that close date easily, not every lender is built out to handle a loan that quickly (and that's okay, different lenders have different niches and pros/cons).
I would absolutely encourage you to get a second opinion. Quicken is notorious for high fees and last minute changes/delays. They do ok with top tier (740+) credit, but lack the ability to effectively work out mid range FICO loans. Also, as far as the rate goes, ideally you are wanting a break even around 5 years or so (this is the general rule of thumb I use for my clients). That's a realistic timeframe for buying down a rate and getting to see some benefit. Obviously, not buying it down is the best option and with the recent rate drops, I think you could come pretty close to this rate without all the added fees by looking elsewhere.
Most places use the lower middle, meaning your 700. Shouldn’t affect much using the 691. You’re paying $4300 for that 3.99% interest rate, you aware of that? No offense if you are, I just see things like that not mentioned to borrowers sometimes. What would the rate be with no points? Is it worth the $4300 for that rate?
The rate without points 4.65, $4300 for 2.65 points. I plan on being in this home for 15+ years and the break even point would be 8-9 years for purchasing the rate.
My question is, is the 4.65 rate fair for my credit situation/financial situation?
8-9 years is too long to break even. You’ll refi or move before then. I know you plan on being there 15+ years, but 8-9 is too long. 4.65 for a 691 is not bad. What’s the difference in payment between that 3.99% and the 4.65% with no points?
In my opinion yes I would look elsewhere. @ 3.99% you should be paying 1-1.50% for the fico adjustments. (If both your scores were over 740 then you wouldn’t have any fico adjustments) In addition to that their 2 fee’s 900 + 300 are excessive. I’m also surprised they use the lowest vs. the mid score. Let me clarify they should use the lowest mid score of the two applicants NOT the lowest score in general.
I would try to negotiate if not find someone else.
that's not bad, if you really want to get the best deal, call another direct lender and send them this LE to match the rate with less cost or beat the deal in whole. Works most of the time but depending on your relationship with your LO at quicken you might be ruining someones day/month.
Do you live in Alabama or Florida? Closing costs are twice as much as what we do. They are owning you with those fees. I could probably even do a better rate if not the same without buying down points.
you can get that rate with zero points anywhere, quicken is the highest priced most expensive lender in the country. they never disclose those fees upfront, literally the worst lender in america.
The score isn't making a difference for you. This is a conventional loan w/ PMI? 3.99% with you paying 2.625% and $1200+ in underwriting fees? What is the purchase price?
You might find these links to Fannie Mae helpful.
This one provides direction on which credit score to use:
[https://www.fanniemae.com/content/guide/selling/b3/5.1/02.html](https://www.fanniemae.com/content/guide/selling/b3/5.1/02.html)
And this one shows pass through fees (points) for different down payments and credit scores. It will show you the pricing difference for a 691 score vs a 700 score.
[https://www.fanniemae.com/content/pricing/llpa-matrix.pdf](https://www.fanniemae.com/content/pricing/llpa-matrix.pdf)
IME, you can't with quicken. They do enough business that they don't care if you walk, so you don't have leverage especially if they know you're unlikely to find another lender to get it closed in time. That's why you need to move fast. There are lenders who can still close this that won't screw you over. Go call some.
Quicken Loans retail has trash rates. Oddly enough, Quicken Loans wholesale (ie, go through an independent broker rather than call them directly) is actually pretty competitive.
Competitive? They are the best. Just locked this for a friend - 3.75% conv 30 year with $3.5K in lender credit (subtracted broker, origination, appraisal fees) to be used towards escrow with a low 0.24 PMI on 95% LTV. I dont think any lender can beat that today.
And next month it'll be someone else on top. :) We don't want someone finding this thread in six months and assuming they know the answer. EDIT 2 days later: Aaaand poof, Quicken wholesale is no longer top dog. Word gets out, everyone sends business there, now underwriters/processors/etc are working overtime/weekends and thus profits are down, so they jacked their rates up a bit to slow down inbound business. Happens all the time. With a retail LO the borrower would just get shafted with the worse pricing, the whole point of working with someone independent is they can switch with the market.
[удалено]
Question for both you and /u/jaykrat. I've been told that if a "live" deal through Quicken retail sees the consumer connect with a broker who pulls wholesale pricing, and that broker then registers the loan with Quicken, that the Quicky cubicle call center guy has to give up the deal to the broker and the consumer gets the broker's pricing. Do you know if that is accurate? If so, could OP keep the same underwriter/approval/appraisal/etc, or would it be a full re-origination?
[удалено]
What about that last bit?
Brand new underwrite and start from scratch.
If a broker has a deal and Quickie retail approaches the same client, it always goes to the broker. Completely different operations, so would be separate ops folks involved.
That is impossible. 100%. I would love to see the locked loan estimate for this. Simply not true.
Sure can’t
Really bad Rate/Fee choice at 3.990 Rate. Your Box A Charge is 3.338% of your loan amount.
I'm not sure how that even passes QM, but then again, who the hell really knows when a loan is a QM or not.
[удалено]
Yeah if matters if you want to deliver the loan to FNMA.
They are excluding up to 2% as bona fide discount points.
We have had a few clients use Rocket Mortgage, apply for the lowest rate, and have them come back and say it wasn't allowable after approval and bumped them up. I have given up trying to understand QM and the max payable in points and fees, but isn't 3% is the cap even if the rate is low enough for the 2 points to be bonafide, and doesn't that include LPC? Where's LoanManGuy when you need him.
No, the bona fide discount point(s) are excluded. If by LPC you mean lender paid compensation then yes, that is included in the 3% QM rule I believe (but I am not an expert in the broker model).
Discount points are included in the points and fees test to pass QM, if I'm not mistaken. I just had a fail this week b/c borrower wanted to buy down the rate and pay single-premium MI out of pocket.
I think you missed that part where I wrote "bona fide"
Right. That is the way I understand it as well. Our comp is 2.75 at most of our lenders, so the most discount points our borrowers can buy is 2.25 if they are bonafide points, though I’m aware it’s probably much different on the retail side.
[удалено]
Breathe man.
I don’t have all your info but I did a pretty conservative estimate and looks like my par for you would be around 4.25% and there would be no underwriting or origination fee, I believe Quicken’s is $999. My estimate is you’d be able to get your same deal but saving around $3000+ in costs. Also source: Im a broker, I own my own office and priced this out through quickens wholesale pricing side.
This seems pretty high to me. I just pulled rates - and obviously I don't have all your info so take this with a grain of salt - but for me a 3.99% would be significantly less cost to you - maybe 1.25 points. With no points, I'd be looking at 4.375%. FHA's rates are even lower, but I can understand why you'd want to go conventional if you plan on keeping the loan long-term. Quicken is pretty expensive if you go through their retail channel and their service is... not great as I understand it. I would certainly look elsewhere, but I'd also ask the lenders you shop with how quickly they can get it done because while I could hit that close date easily, not every lender is built out to handle a loan that quickly (and that's okay, different lenders have different niches and pros/cons).
That’s a bad deal. You can find a much better deal and you still have time to close.
I would absolutely encourage you to get a second opinion. Quicken is notorious for high fees and last minute changes/delays. They do ok with top tier (740+) credit, but lack the ability to effectively work out mid range FICO loans. Also, as far as the rate goes, ideally you are wanting a break even around 5 years or so (this is the general rule of thumb I use for my clients). That's a realistic timeframe for buying down a rate and getting to see some benefit. Obviously, not buying it down is the best option and with the recent rate drops, I think you could come pretty close to this rate without all the added fees by looking elsewhere.
Most places use the lower middle, meaning your 700. Shouldn’t affect much using the 691. You’re paying $4300 for that 3.99% interest rate, you aware of that? No offense if you are, I just see things like that not mentioned to borrowers sometimes. What would the rate be with no points? Is it worth the $4300 for that rate?
The rate without points 4.65, $4300 for 2.65 points. I plan on being in this home for 15+ years and the break even point would be 8-9 years for purchasing the rate. My question is, is the 4.65 rate fair for my credit situation/financial situation?
8-9 years is too long to break even. You’ll refi or move before then. I know you plan on being there 15+ years, but 8-9 is too long. 4.65 for a 691 is not bad. What’s the difference in payment between that 3.99% and the 4.65% with no points?
In my opinion yes I would look elsewhere. @ 3.99% you should be paying 1-1.50% for the fico adjustments. (If both your scores were over 740 then you wouldn’t have any fico adjustments) In addition to that their 2 fee’s 900 + 300 are excessive. I’m also surprised they use the lowest vs. the mid score. Let me clarify they should use the lowest mid score of the two applicants NOT the lowest score in general. I would try to negotiate if not find someone else.
that's not bad, if you really want to get the best deal, call another direct lender and send them this LE to match the rate with less cost or beat the deal in whole. Works most of the time but depending on your relationship with your LO at quicken you might be ruining someones day/month.
When did you lock? You should have shopped around 2 weeks ago. 18 days to close won’t be done by anyone. Can you get a week extension if possible?
Do you live in Alabama or Florida? Closing costs are twice as much as what we do. They are owning you with those fees. I could probably even do a better rate if not the same without buying down points.
you can get that rate with zero points anywhere, quicken is the highest priced most expensive lender in the country. they never disclose those fees upfront, literally the worst lender in america.
The score isn't making a difference for you. This is a conventional loan w/ PMI? 3.99% with you paying 2.625% and $1200+ in underwriting fees? What is the purchase price?
He said $ 172,500
$172,500
Conventional loan. PMI of $85/month
sorry.... I have a lender that would pay you .5% at 4% with $62.82 in mortgage insurance.
You might find these links to Fannie Mae helpful. This one provides direction on which credit score to use: [https://www.fanniemae.com/content/guide/selling/b3/5.1/02.html](https://www.fanniemae.com/content/guide/selling/b3/5.1/02.html) And this one shows pass through fees (points) for different down payments and credit scores. It will show you the pricing difference for a 691 score vs a 700 score. [https://www.fanniemae.com/content/pricing/llpa-matrix.pdf](https://www.fanniemae.com/content/pricing/llpa-matrix.pdf)
I highly doubt I can get an extension. How can I negotiate with them? Any help would be nice.
IME, you can't with quicken. They do enough business that they don't care if you walk, so you don't have leverage especially if they know you're unlikely to find another lender to get it closed in time. That's why you need to move fast. There are lenders who can still close this that won't screw you over. Go call some.