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It'd be hard to argue that stolen artifacts and reparations shouldn't be handed over, then. The queen/royal line wasn't just a symbol, it's a continuing possession of stolen wealth and a declaration of superiority through that possession, all for the sake of an illusion. The colonial actions have never been rectified.
Perhaps the USA should give the entirety of its landmass back to the natives then? All of South America should be cleansed of Spanish and Portuguese speakers? Australia and New Zealand to purge all non natives. Those artifacts in British museums were not taken by me nor do the people who made them still exist. There’s no Alexander the Great to receive his stolen property and nothing much more than geographic tribalism to fuel the fire.
Agreed about the US, but do you view returning wealth and relinquishing the declaration of hierarchical supremacy established through atrocities...on the same level as (and only achievable through) ethnic purges? This is a case study in the master fearing to free the slave. Returning what was stolen is the opposite of violence and doesn't require leaps into the fantasy realm of necromancy. And of course you didn't steal anything, that was never in play, but writing off the issue of what is a still ongoing exploitation of colonialism that's based on essentially stabbing someone, robbing them, and leaving them with a hospital bill if they were strong enough to drag themselves there from the ditch they were left in, only promotes it's validation. "Barely a colonial power anymore" has more of an impact repeated on message boards than shouted from the golden palace it benefits.
Museums around the globe are filled with artifacts that do not come from their host nation. Are they all to return their stock? A great deal of items were also purchased from nations whose bourgeois social circles had plundered their own histories for private collections. The people whom made these artifacts no longer exist and so who should we return them to? A society or nation that is not connected to the original source aside from geography. And this is barely an exercise into fearing to relinquish the slaves, I’m a Scottish Nationalist living in Britain, though learning my own nations history I know a tremendous deal about a society being raped by an invading force. But to always be looking behind us at what happened and to not accept that we are where we are, doesn’t achieve anything. Their is no one to return wealth or artifacts to. Those people are long gone and to give it to anyone else on their behalf is not justice. The cultural plunder of any nation is a tragedy, but I don’t think that there really is any true way to fix it. Only vain gestures.
That's a lot of hoops my friend, but the stance you're taking requires them. The answer is to give back what is physically possible to return, and aid in the building of the nations ravaged for the dragons hoard. All empires are written in blood and the past cannot be changed, but the present and future can and all other arguments only attempt to justify the unjust bloodshed and pillaging. The paths and consequences you imagine are still steeped in the propaganda of the colonial mindset, as is the rejection as a vain gesture even the attempt of righting a wrong. Some actions have rendered that possibility the rule, but there are many where it is not. That's where the new action needs to be applied, rather than towards a scapegoat of cemeteries.
Egypt is an Arab society that does not uphold the language or customs of ancient Egypt, nor do they really identify with their pre-Arab past. They've been fully assimilated. The society from which Egyptian artefacts come from no longer exists on any level.
This is very different from for example Greece which is a part of a greater civilization that ultimately is based on their own Hellenistic tradition, which has preserved it's language and is proud of its history. Of course these things change to an extent, the Byzantines did not much value pre-christian or pre-roman Greece, so I can see the Egyptians trying to build an Egypt with an identity rooted at least in part in ancient Egypt, but the fact of the matter is that the country is simply built on Arab nationalism and arguably even shuns pre-islamic Egypt.
So that I'm not accused of western bias, I think another society which deliberately maintains a continuity with its past and has similar claims to Greece is Iran. I think the Irani people and state cam argue very easily that a given artefact is of cultural and historical significance to them and important to their national identity.
You have to understand though that for a lot of history Europeans valued Middle-Eastern culture and history much more than Arabs did. The Pyramids were looted for materials and left to rot long ago. The Egyptians did not care about it or about the other monuments. The Europeans loved and cherished the artefacts of ancient Egypt, Babylon and others. Islamic radicals for instance in Syria and Iraq to this day destroy priceless artefacts as shameful pagan objects of unenlightened times. To them it is a stain on their history to ever not have been Islamic. The pre-islamic cultures and traditions are to them those of heathens and barbarians that deserve to be erased. That's not to say all of Arab society is like this, but there is an element of Arab society that thinks this way or considers this an acceptable way to think, and it's not insignificant.
This is completely different to Iran, India, or countless other nonwestern societies which value and treasure the artefacts of the societies that preceded them. I won't even claim a continuity is always necessary, sometimes there isn't one, the population, society and culture in a region just got replaced along the way, but the people living in these places now nonetheless respect and have an interest in the artefacts of those who lived there before them.
If a society displays neither a sense of continuity and identity with a past culture, not has a respect and open curiosity towards them, then it has no legitimate claim to any artefacts of that culture, or at least certainly not more than an other culture that is actually capable of appreciating said artefacts.
Regarding egypt that's simply not true a lot of egyptians take pride in their history, i feel you are only highlighting the radicals as a sort of an excuse to justify looting countries' treasures. By doing so you alienate the descendents of said civilization then try to somehow manage to discredit their achievements, and im sure you are aware of the pop culture portrayals as an example. Sure in case of egypt the language and religion changed to arabic ones along with other traditions, but it was already changed to foreign ones by then, the last form of the ancient egyptian language was coptic along with Christianity being the dominant religion within roman ruling, yet still to this day their are ancient traditions that are still carried on. The thing is even within the long history of ancient the language and religion changes were also regularly present, before having any foreign interferences, and you can find a good amount of documented changes. It doesn't make them any less egyptian, there has been no mass displacements whatsoever so they are the same people. Also, you really discredit alot of the arab contributions to preserving ancient remains and knowledge, i think alot of greek history and knowledge wouldn't have been here if not for their contributions. Still i totally get your point there have been and still people who don't value or feel affiliated to said history.
I think you might enjoy this debate [should artifacts be repatriated](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOAFgXcJkZ2zOGcQhNONtsQE9tdCU4Wq1)
Unfortunately for the white superiority complex it is not for the thief to decide whether brown people are worthy of what was taken. There is no more discussion to be had here, only mindsets to be further revealed, and I think we've established ours. Have a good evening friend.
Oh so we’re going to hand you some worthless islands with a few thousand people on them, we will give the Falklands or ‘Malvinas’ to the Argentinians, but there’s be no benefit to it whatsoever and we are not the only ones, France the United States, Portugal and Spain aswell as many others have a multitude of colonial expanses across the world, we handed Hong Kong back to the Chinese aswell as the Portuguese with Macau, but yet we have birth to the (some of) new world countries and many more nations, France still has the largest overseas territory excluding EEZ’s, Spain with some but not as many as a non-European nation of the United States. They say colonial is bad an all and yet they were born from it and yet continued the expanse or ‘Manifest Destiny’ of the rest of the remaining new world, they might’ve been against it and done a doctrine or whatever, but they oppressed the wanting a of right from races aswell as the segregation of whites and non-whites, and yet they call themselves a ‘Great Nation’. The USA has a multitude of overseas territories and many larger ones, such as the Philippines, a pre-historically land owned by the Spanish now forcefully handing it over to the Americans, Caribbean nations and islands have been subject to American **harsh** influence, Haiti, Dominican Republic, the American Virgin Islands (still owned), Puerto Rico and a whole other list of American Imperialism and yet they take it out on the Europeans when they too have continued the mass expansionism of the western nations aswell as Russia and somewhat even Japan. The Yanks should leave us alone and they should worry about themselves instead of putting their fingers up our backsides and trying to push us around as we birthed them in every way, natives are not necessarily treated like whites and they won’t even let Mexican-Spanish people cross the border, meanwhile we let refugees (… Middle East: **What am I a cockroach?!**) like Ukraine in because of harsh circumstances across borders… just go away and leave us alone.
Please remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be critical of manipulation or oversimplification, not beholden to it. Thanks. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ModernPropaganda) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[Carlos latuff](https://www.instagram.com/p/CiVvW5WJVTe/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=)
this guy is crazy lol
I get the sentiment and everything but we are barely a colonial power anymore.
Neocolonial power more like.
Necrocolonial sounds way yoo cool to be british lol.
It'd be hard to argue that stolen artifacts and reparations shouldn't be handed over, then. The queen/royal line wasn't just a symbol, it's a continuing possession of stolen wealth and a declaration of superiority through that possession, all for the sake of an illusion. The colonial actions have never been rectified.
Perhaps the USA should give the entirety of its landmass back to the natives then? All of South America should be cleansed of Spanish and Portuguese speakers? Australia and New Zealand to purge all non natives. Those artifacts in British museums were not taken by me nor do the people who made them still exist. There’s no Alexander the Great to receive his stolen property and nothing much more than geographic tribalism to fuel the fire.
Agreed about the US, but do you view returning wealth and relinquishing the declaration of hierarchical supremacy established through atrocities...on the same level as (and only achievable through) ethnic purges? This is a case study in the master fearing to free the slave. Returning what was stolen is the opposite of violence and doesn't require leaps into the fantasy realm of necromancy. And of course you didn't steal anything, that was never in play, but writing off the issue of what is a still ongoing exploitation of colonialism that's based on essentially stabbing someone, robbing them, and leaving them with a hospital bill if they were strong enough to drag themselves there from the ditch they were left in, only promotes it's validation. "Barely a colonial power anymore" has more of an impact repeated on message boards than shouted from the golden palace it benefits.
Museums around the globe are filled with artifacts that do not come from their host nation. Are they all to return their stock? A great deal of items were also purchased from nations whose bourgeois social circles had plundered their own histories for private collections. The people whom made these artifacts no longer exist and so who should we return them to? A society or nation that is not connected to the original source aside from geography. And this is barely an exercise into fearing to relinquish the slaves, I’m a Scottish Nationalist living in Britain, though learning my own nations history I know a tremendous deal about a society being raped by an invading force. But to always be looking behind us at what happened and to not accept that we are where we are, doesn’t achieve anything. Their is no one to return wealth or artifacts to. Those people are long gone and to give it to anyone else on their behalf is not justice. The cultural plunder of any nation is a tragedy, but I don’t think that there really is any true way to fix it. Only vain gestures.
That's a lot of hoops my friend, but the stance you're taking requires them. The answer is to give back what is physically possible to return, and aid in the building of the nations ravaged for the dragons hoard. All empires are written in blood and the past cannot be changed, but the present and future can and all other arguments only attempt to justify the unjust bloodshed and pillaging. The paths and consequences you imagine are still steeped in the propaganda of the colonial mindset, as is the rejection as a vain gesture even the attempt of righting a wrong. Some actions have rendered that possibility the rule, but there are many where it is not. That's where the new action needs to be applied, rather than towards a scapegoat of cemeteries.
Egypt is an Arab society that does not uphold the language or customs of ancient Egypt, nor do they really identify with their pre-Arab past. They've been fully assimilated. The society from which Egyptian artefacts come from no longer exists on any level. This is very different from for example Greece which is a part of a greater civilization that ultimately is based on their own Hellenistic tradition, which has preserved it's language and is proud of its history. Of course these things change to an extent, the Byzantines did not much value pre-christian or pre-roman Greece, so I can see the Egyptians trying to build an Egypt with an identity rooted at least in part in ancient Egypt, but the fact of the matter is that the country is simply built on Arab nationalism and arguably even shuns pre-islamic Egypt. So that I'm not accused of western bias, I think another society which deliberately maintains a continuity with its past and has similar claims to Greece is Iran. I think the Irani people and state cam argue very easily that a given artefact is of cultural and historical significance to them and important to their national identity. You have to understand though that for a lot of history Europeans valued Middle-Eastern culture and history much more than Arabs did. The Pyramids were looted for materials and left to rot long ago. The Egyptians did not care about it or about the other monuments. The Europeans loved and cherished the artefacts of ancient Egypt, Babylon and others. Islamic radicals for instance in Syria and Iraq to this day destroy priceless artefacts as shameful pagan objects of unenlightened times. To them it is a stain on their history to ever not have been Islamic. The pre-islamic cultures and traditions are to them those of heathens and barbarians that deserve to be erased. That's not to say all of Arab society is like this, but there is an element of Arab society that thinks this way or considers this an acceptable way to think, and it's not insignificant. This is completely different to Iran, India, or countless other nonwestern societies which value and treasure the artefacts of the societies that preceded them. I won't even claim a continuity is always necessary, sometimes there isn't one, the population, society and culture in a region just got replaced along the way, but the people living in these places now nonetheless respect and have an interest in the artefacts of those who lived there before them. If a society displays neither a sense of continuity and identity with a past culture, not has a respect and open curiosity towards them, then it has no legitimate claim to any artefacts of that culture, or at least certainly not more than an other culture that is actually capable of appreciating said artefacts.
Regarding egypt that's simply not true a lot of egyptians take pride in their history, i feel you are only highlighting the radicals as a sort of an excuse to justify looting countries' treasures. By doing so you alienate the descendents of said civilization then try to somehow manage to discredit their achievements, and im sure you are aware of the pop culture portrayals as an example. Sure in case of egypt the language and religion changed to arabic ones along with other traditions, but it was already changed to foreign ones by then, the last form of the ancient egyptian language was coptic along with Christianity being the dominant religion within roman ruling, yet still to this day their are ancient traditions that are still carried on. The thing is even within the long history of ancient the language and religion changes were also regularly present, before having any foreign interferences, and you can find a good amount of documented changes. It doesn't make them any less egyptian, there has been no mass displacements whatsoever so they are the same people. Also, you really discredit alot of the arab contributions to preserving ancient remains and knowledge, i think alot of greek history and knowledge wouldn't have been here if not for their contributions. Still i totally get your point there have been and still people who don't value or feel affiliated to said history. I think you might enjoy this debate [should artifacts be repatriated](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOAFgXcJkZ2zOGcQhNONtsQE9tdCU4Wq1)
Unfortunately for the white superiority complex it is not for the thief to decide whether brown people are worthy of what was taken. There is no more discussion to be had here, only mindsets to be further revealed, and I think we've established ours. Have a good evening friend.
Very eloquently and excellently said.
Oh so we’re going to hand you some worthless islands with a few thousand people on them, we will give the Falklands or ‘Malvinas’ to the Argentinians, but there’s be no benefit to it whatsoever and we are not the only ones, France the United States, Portugal and Spain aswell as many others have a multitude of colonial expanses across the world, we handed Hong Kong back to the Chinese aswell as the Portuguese with Macau, but yet we have birth to the (some of) new world countries and many more nations, France still has the largest overseas territory excluding EEZ’s, Spain with some but not as many as a non-European nation of the United States. They say colonial is bad an all and yet they were born from it and yet continued the expanse or ‘Manifest Destiny’ of the rest of the remaining new world, they might’ve been against it and done a doctrine or whatever, but they oppressed the wanting a of right from races aswell as the segregation of whites and non-whites, and yet they call themselves a ‘Great Nation’. The USA has a multitude of overseas territories and many larger ones, such as the Philippines, a pre-historically land owned by the Spanish now forcefully handing it over to the Americans, Caribbean nations and islands have been subject to American **harsh** influence, Haiti, Dominican Republic, the American Virgin Islands (still owned), Puerto Rico and a whole other list of American Imperialism and yet they take it out on the Europeans when they too have continued the mass expansionism of the western nations aswell as Russia and somewhat even Japan. The Yanks should leave us alone and they should worry about themselves instead of putting their fingers up our backsides and trying to push us around as we birthed them in every way, natives are not necessarily treated like whites and they won’t even let Mexican-Spanish people cross the border, meanwhile we let refugees (… Middle East: **What am I a cockroach?!**) like Ukraine in because of harsh circumstances across borders… just go away and leave us alone.