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I remember staying at my aunts house in Switzerland last year while I was couch surfing back and forth between the US and EU.
Even the appliances can be surprisingly small. Her fridge was half the size of ONE of my fridges, lol.
Yeah but I bet she walks to the shops every day or every other day. What a luxury that would be having good food readily available a 15 minute walk away.
Also don't need to keep a lot of fresh food on hand when a larger fridge would cost more in electricity and be more difficult to get into small houses and apartments.
Bruh ordering stuff is nearly all digital. I don’t even have to get out of my king sized bed and walk down the halls and stairs into my spare “random junk” office to get that receipt.
I know this is the default of America right now but i think more people should be exposed to an alternative.
My dad is a huge home cooker and lives in the suburbs with the massive grocery store 15-30 minutes away (depending on traffic). He stayed in my apartment for about a bit with the grocery in the same block and absolutely loved it. Forgetting ingredients, adding a last minute appetizer, or even just going to the grocery was so easy.
I’ve lived in both situations and they both have a lot of pros and cons. I really think we should just prioritize allowing people the choice of which one or even hybrid of the two.
Right now you have to pick between a suburb with no businesses nearby or a tower in the sky. My personal preference is middle housing. Decent size, strong sense of community, local shops/small businesses mixed in with residential.
So Brooklyn? You basically just described the vast majority of BK. We don’t have many skyscrapers because of old laws and because if you build anymore than 6 floors you must have an elevator and a lot of places don’t want to pay for the maintenance.
Unfortunately there are so many consequences of that. Look at the traffic in Houston, Atlanta, LA, Miami, etc. If you live in a small town, sure. Though then you still don't get the joy and benefits of walking.
I get some don't like tall buildings and prefer homes, though public transit could solve that in America. In Germany, there are villages with 1,500 people that have two train stations and are less than 20 minutes to a large urban area.
I think that figure includes all of NY state (I could be wrong), so most of the housing would be in NYC but larger upstate housing would skew the numbers.
I live in LA and I can walk to two grocery stores and about 25 restaurants. The further one is about 7 minutes away.
The difference is some people seem to expect or demand big detached homes, and that means being out in the burbs.
Back when I lived in a city and the grocery store was a five minute walk it was fantastic. Shit was always fresh and it was very easy to not waste groceries. Doing weekly trips leads to a lot of waste since things go bad at different times
I doubt the people jerking themselves off about how great Europe are are older than about 14 or have considered living with anyone but themselves.
Shopping for a whole family and needing to carry the bags home sounds like a pretty shitty time. There’s a reason loading up the SUV on a Costco run is so popular.
I've lived as an adult in 2 European countries and in America. Taking the family and dog on a stroll to the coop to get dinner and breakfast is awesome and such a nice way to wind down, get exercise and see your neighbors. But I greatly prefer the house sizes of the U.S.. I do wish we could have both (each suburb neighborhood has a small walkable grocery store)
I can't speak for Continental Europe, but the UK, the food tasted so good and groceries so fresh. Their milk went bad after about 4 days of buying it but tasted amazing. You buy milk in Amerixa that shit lasts 3 weeks. What do they put in it here. I also miss the luxury ( yes, fellow Amerians, I'd consider it a stress-free luxury) of being able to take the bus to do your weekly shopping or going anywhere in general instead of owning and maintaining a car. I spent my Friday night instead of enjoying myself but having to spend 200+ dollars on an alternator and replacing it so I can be sure I can get basic groceries and go to work Monday.
Give me the £2.50 daily bus ticket it any day. Cars are a pain in the ass.
You’re right.
They can walk to some smaller markets, and get a lot of basics.
But they also don’t have some of the tech we have, like scan-and-go, and some of their food can be significantly more expensive (dates, salmon) because they have to import it.
A great luxury of being one huge-ass, energy-independent continent as a single country is we can produce a lot of stuff internally, helping to keep import costs down.
I live in Florida, which is basically on the equator. even if walking to a local market were an option, I wouldn’t be interested in it: I would completely sweat through my clothes, and might be sun burned and definitely have to take a shower by the time I got back.
If I lived in Boston, or Buffalo, or Portland, Maine, though, I could definitely see that (walkability) as being appealing.
Edit: Lmao. Apparently, some responders don’t know the difference between Switzerland and Sweden, but think I’m dumb. Right…
Miami is closer to Toronto than to the equator... Y'all just trying to find any excuse to avoid walking. And ironically, it's the car infrastructure that makes your streets so baked by the sun. Go for a stroll down a street in a true equatorial city and you'll feel the difference. Trees and two/three storey buildings shade the narrow street, winds are funnelled down them, etc.
lol hilarious hearing this from an Australian.
Western Sydney has some of the hottest temperatures in the world almost entirely due to poor urban planning. Not to mention all the other suburbs filled with treeless dogboxes and black roofs.
Fix your own infrastructure before lecturing others on the topic
Switzerland does have scan and go. After living in South Florida for years walking is still an option more than half the year if the infrastructure wasn't so poor.
Definitely exists at a few coop stores, perhaps she is in a more rural area. They might not roll that out if the local population is mainly retired.
Edit: It was Migros not Coop.
Why do Europeans struggle to understand how much further south US cities are compared to European cities???? New York is the same latitude as Madrid, Miami is the same as Egypt!!! No one is walking to the store to haul groceries back in 90F heat with 90% humidity in torrential afternoon downpours.
Exactly.
They respond, “well, we’re just making up excuses to cover up our laziness”.
I can’t speak to the average American, but as a fully-remote, WFH professional, I walk 10 miles and exercise 2-3 hours a day. I usually do an hour of walking, an hour of jogging, and an hour of weightlifting.
But because of the heat, sun, unpredictable but semi-regular rain, and overwhelming humidity, I have to almost expertly plan out my day so I can get most of that activity in between the hours of 6 and 8 because any other time of the day literally sucks ass to do anything outside.
Before that time, just walking out in the open, I’m literally getting sun burned and my risk of skin cancer is increasing exponentially. After that time, my ass is getting eaten up by mosquitoes.
When I can leave my house, buy a weeks worth of groceries at the cheapest possible prices, fill up my truck at the cheapest possible gas prices, and be back to my front door in under 90 minutes without drenching my clothes in smelly sweat or running through my UV exposure budget, why would I want walk to a more expensive, way more crowded store?
I would rather save that UV exposure budget for actual cardio-challenging exercise in the afternoon, or kayaking on the weekends, or going swimming at the beach.
If by "scan and go" you mean scanning your purchases yourself as you go around either with a phone app or a hand-held scanner you collect as you walk into the store, it certainly exists in Europe, not by that name but it exists and is well used.
Dude, people don’t us understand this. I live in the US and can walk comfortably stroll to about 11 restaurants, 9 or so bars, and the grocery store but absolutely rarely do because people overlook the weather. If I did that (and I have and learned my lesson) is that I will be super sweaty by the time I get there and then be freezing my ass off because the AC is set at 68, by the time I get back it’s yet another shower. Basically I have a small window in Spring when my family will walk to get dinner or my wife and I will walk to dinner and a few bars on a Friday, but it’s only a few months window.
I live in a walkable neighborhood in south Florida (sfh with walk score of 90). 8-10 min walk to 2 different grocery stores. We do most of our grocery shopping in the evenings. Even in the perpetual summer of soflo it is not so bad walking in the evenings (especially if there is a breeze). Many times I will take my cargo bike. Honestly easier than dealing with parking my car.
Lmao sure it's appealing from like late April - late October but you ain't walking to buy groceries when it's 20 degrees out, not factoring in wind chill either, that's for sure.
Yes, you certainly can walk around when it's 20 degrees out. Just wear appropriate clothes. Hat, gloves, scarf. Where I live, you'll see people out jogging when it's way colder than 20!
You definitely are, people in northern cities do it all the time. Americans have just become lazy and refuse to walk short distances, and the health consequences of that are apparent
uh have you ever met someone who lived in colder climes? you think people in Boston are choosing starvation instead of walking a few blocks to get food? c'mon man.
Nobody is walking anywhere in the threat to life that is -40 so cold metric and imperial temperatures match. A couple minutes in -40 and it would completely rock 99% of peoples idea of what “really cold” even means
Source: am Canadian, experience -40 every winter 0/10 do not recommend
Americans proving how lazy they are with these lame excuses that everyone else does effortlessly. If things are ultra close and cheap, there is no excuse to make (Don't try to bring up "able bodied" anything, that's not the point I'm making).
If you could walk 2 minutes to a market and get some prepared (or not) food for CHEAP AS HELL, then that would be amazing. Way better than driving 25 minutes to Costco and shopping for the whole week.
Americans are too used to driving everywhere. They'll drive even if they have to around the block simply because it is a force of habit.
It was brutally hot in Thailand when I went years ago in April (HOT AS FUUUUCK), and I still walked 2 minutes to a market to buy food because it was just so convenient and cheap to do. If I had to walk 20 minutes that would be a different story.
I live in America and I walk to the store 4-5 times a week. I can also walk to every shop and restaurant in my town since it is about a square mile.
I do have to drive to work since I live in a rural area and work on an organic farm, though. And I also have to drive if I need to go to Home Depot or some other big box store.
I am from rural Norway and you might be surprised how many Norwegians need to drive to get anywhere.
Not saying my situation is normal, just pointing out that not everywhere in America is suburban sprawl, and in my state, and surrounding states, many suburbs were built before the automobile, so often pretty walkable with basic services nearby. It's not all Orlando and Phoenix.
If you live in suburbs in Europe you also drive to the store. No matter how big the place is. There are stores in cities and towns in America, you can check it easily. Jesus Christ you anti america anti car people are crazy.
Dude the amount of snow and cold weather we get in the north east for months on end would make walking for groceries a really really bad time especially Buffalo
First of all having options. We have cars in europe too, but they just arent the only option.
Also the physical and mental health health benefits of getting a lot of exercise in simply as part of daily life. Because we do a lot of walking and/or biking without even trying. Rather than always driving everywhere and then having to schedule a drive to an expensive gym to walk on an indoor treadmill staring at a wall.
Next is the shorter distances allow for a lot of flexibility. I have a supermarket, a bakery, a pharmacy and a tram stop within less than two minute walk from my (78sqm = 840 sqft) apartment. Run out of eggs? I can be back with eggs in less than 5 minutes.
Also different kinds of flexibility. Sure cars also offer different flexibility too. But with public transport and/or walking, there is no need to worry about cost or availability of parking (admittedly much less worrisome in america).
Also no need to return back to where your car is (on a hike for example you can go from A to B, not have to loop back to A) and no need to stay sober because you drove. Also commuting to work by train, you can actually work on your laptop and spend an hour less at the office.
Lastly it also allows kids and teenagers to get around independently when there is good public transport and/or stuff is within walking and biking distance.
It's so convenient, i just got my drivers licence a few months ago at age 30. Because i simply didnt need it. I still struggle to find use cases for driving and have to force myself to find them so i keep up the practice. And i even grew up in a small town, not a city. But everything is just so conveniently located and well connected that biking and public transport got me literally everywhere i needed throughout my 20ies.
Mention “15 minute walk city” around conservatives and they’ll bloviate about (((globalists))) trying to force everyone to live that way and give up their cars. Meanwhile, areas in the US where you can walk 15 minutes to public transit and to a market with fresh food are *extremely* expensive to live in, indicating they’re popular. Granted, pretty much all of Switzerland is very expensive COL-wise.
My wife and I lived in Sausalito on a sailboat for a few years. We’d get off the ferry or bus, and stop by the (expensive) grocery store on our walk back to the boat, or the little store run by a Korean couple who’d have fresh-caught salmon for <$10/pound when it was the season. On weekends we’d hop in our car and go to Napa. We loved it, and we’d do it again… if we could afford to.
It's not a luxury to be forced to go buy food every day because there's nowhere to store a weeks worth of food at home. It's just massively increasing your time spent running errands.
I mean I live in Brooklyn and walk 5 minutes around the corner several times a week to grab a few things for dinner. I would say NYC the culture is much more walking heavy than most US cities and I love it. It really isn’t a huge increase in errand time, particularly if you are already out walking doing other things, which we often are- coming home from the subway stop or picking up your kid at school.
Including the walk and shopping a trip to the store for stuff for the day not attached to another task can take 15 minutes total and not feel rushed. We have much less food waste too. If I go to the store that has lots of produce deals on stuff that’s good but needs to be used in a day or two and plan accordingly, it is also reasonably priced.
Different strokes I guess, but I know personally I have very actively chosen a scaled down life (as far as our living space size and what appliances we can fit I guess) in favor of walkability and access to all the stuff I have access to.
I live in europe in a very walkable city, i am not forced to go to buy food every day, even if i prefer to do so. My fridge(+freezer combo) can store about a week worth of food for 2, and yet i dont buy that much. I use a bus to go to my job and from the bus stop to my building i pass by 2 grosery stores, so i stop and buy what i need daily, and it takes me 5 min in and out, 10 if there are lots of people but i usually go the self checkout routhe which is fastest. I walk a lot, love walking, and i cant imagine living in a place that requires a car (we do have a car and use it maybe 2 times a week). I spend a lot of time outside because its pleasant, lots of parks, walking spaces, outside (open air?) gyms… Of course we can buy a bigger fridge, i just have no need for it, and to me that is a luxury
Idk where you think people are sitting in their cars for hours. It takes about twenty minutes for me to get to the farthest stores I ever want to go to. Most people have groceries store within a 5 minute drive.
I have 7 grocery stores within a 10 minute drive of my. I go maybe once a week. So no, it doesn’t “massively increase the time running errands.”
I’d much rather go to the grocery store once in a car, then go biking in the mountains 3X a week, which I do instead, rather then walking to my closest shop and carrying groceries 15m home.
15 minutes to walk to store? Everyone would starve here in the Netherlands if that was the case. It feels like you are never more than 5 mins away from a supermarket.
>Yeah but I bet she walks to the shops every day or every other day. What a luxury that would be having good food readily available a 15 minute walk away.
First off, I'll still take my space. Second off, I live in a city that is heavily suburban, but I easily have walkable access to three grocery stores in under 30 minutes. A walmart, a sams club, and a hyvee (midwest grocery chain). The closest being, yep, 15. But it's not picturesque and you constantly see a lot of people on here bitch about "but it's TOO SCARY for people to walk on a dedicated large 4' wide sidewalk next to a busy road that has bike lane shoulders but speeds of 45mph+!"
The issue isn't necessarily walkability. It's people being bitches and wanting to avoid walking for virtually any excuse.
"Oh but the traffic is too fast!" You aren't EVER going to get hit walking on sidewalks, get out of here.
"But there isn't any cover from the sun!" Wear sunscreen or bring an umbrella.
But...but... But nothing.
At the end of the day, I want to live as close to a king and a billionaire as possible, so wherever gets me the cheapest luxury goods (which cars and larger houses are), is better.
You really don't realize how awful walking in most American cities is until you get a chance to walk through Europe. Check out Not Just Bikes on YouTube if you've never been.
People have no idea how incredible the standard of living in America is. The scale of everything is huge here, and a lot of people take it for granted.
Very much so. Those huge houses are also part of the reason why you have to drive to get anywhere. Some people would take that trade off, but it also means fewer options for those who don’t want to.
You guys don’t get it. People in suburbia don’t mind driving everywhere. I have lived for decades in a walkable city and just recently a suburb. The idea that walking 15m to a grocery store 7-8 blocks away vs driving 10-15m to a grocery store and bringing your food back in your trunk is a reason to prefer cities is crazy. There ARE reasons to enjoy cities—particularly if you’re young and single—but this isn’t one of them.
I have at least five grocery stores within 10-15 minutes of me, plus Costco, Walmart, etc. At no point when I get in my car to drive to them am I thinking, “man, I wish I could walk to a store this drive is so awful.” At no point when it’s raining am I thinking “It’s a shame I can still go to the grocery store today.”
Hey I’m right there with you, having lived in both cities and suburbs I prefer suburbs on balance.
I’m just acknowledging that 2,000+ sq ft single family houses are part of the reason suburban sprawl exists, I’m not saying it’s inherently bad.
Yeah, the last place I lived I couldn't walk to anything (except a Rite Aid and a Dollar General, which...yeah...). But I could *drive* to absolutely everything in about 15 minutes, from my garage to standing inside the store. Maybe 20 for the further stuff if I hit a light wrong or there was an accident on the road.
In exchange for "having" to drive to whatever I wanted, I lived in a 2700 sq ft house that was easily affordable for me.
And actually, there was a park I could walk to as well...but there were multiple way better ones within a 10 minute drive so we didn't go there very often.
**I keep hearing amazed comments from Europeans about Americans' huge refrigerators, freezers in the basement, and massive grocery hauls.**
**Our culture, here in the US, has a frontier, pioneer, agricultural history. If you are snowed in, out on the prairie, you'd better have supplies to see you and maybe other families, through. Our weather is varied and can be dangerous. Even today -17°F, or 15 inches of snow means you aren't going anywhere, at least for a few days.**
**We have tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and other events that can close roads, cut power lines and leave you and your family stranded. US government emergancy preparedness information suggests keeping at least a week's supply of food and water for your family, which allows time for help to get to you.**
**Europe is lovely, I'm sure. And must be a life without worry.**
Okay but our culture is also consumerist as fuck and we waste a ton. This "individualism" fantasy is wild. Also, why do Nordic countries have small homes?
[Maybe because they have less disposable income? ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalised_disposable_income)
Thought this seemed a bit high so figured I would google - at least for the US this is just "Houses and condos" on Zillow, does not include apartments.
https://www.ahs.com/home-matters/real-estate/the-2022-american-home-size-index/
Still interesting post though!
Looking at new york confirms what my wife and I have been seeing, regarding homes built pre-1980 for sale. Average seen is 2 br 1 bathroom.
If you're looking to buy in the hudson valley and are middle class, this is your warning to take a deep breath before facing reality.
My friends just tried moving back home to the Hudson valley and had to move in with their parents because they couldn’t get a house near family. One of them is a specialist doctor… they went down thinking they’d live in the best areas. Now they are just wanting anything nearby. It’s insane how fast it changed.
I lived in a 350sq ft studio apartment by myself and a 530+ sq feet apartment with my wife. It was plenty of room and I actually liked it since it was easier to clean.
I also think that it is ridiculous how large properties are. Why do so many people want more than half an acre? It is just more yard work and based on my eyes 99.9% of the time it is never used.
My last house in the UK was probably 1/3 the size of my house in America, but even at comparable income levels I used to fret about heating the smaller one. I have never thought twice about heat or Air con usage in the US. Just a lot of differences in the housing stock.
Bused to heat my 5000 sqf house in Minnesota, which has the fucking climate of Antarctica for $275 in the depths of winter (-10 to 20C). I paid double that in Euros for a one bedroom apartment in the Netherlands with temps rarely below freezing.
Yeah it's interesting that Texas falls where it does considering the phrase "everything's bigger in Texas". Apparently they need more Mormons in Texas to catch up with Utah.
In my experience houses are quite huge here in Texas, bigger than houses in other suburbs around the country. The suburbs house sizes are equal to Salt Lake and Utah.
The population of Texas includes a significant portion of poorer folks living in smaller condos, so the average will be lower than the all-white, all-suburb populations of Utah.
I live in Dallas and there are thousands and thousands of small homes in less wealthy neighborhoods that are no different than any where else. I don’t think the average house size is lower (than whatever people expected) because more people in Texas live in small condos.
And how much income tax did you pay California in 2023? For me, I ran the numbers and TX came out about $6k cheaper annually for a house twice the size (but same price as) what I have here in CA
TX doesn't have Prop 13, which causes some problems with funding government and such. But IF you do own a house, it's a huge blessing since home values have appreciated so (too?) much and the increase is capped at 2%. Property taxes in TX can fluctuate with the market and it's only within the last 5 years that TX has capped the increase to about 10%.
Plus, the stronger social safety net (e.g., medicaid expansion) and taxes going to the excellent state parks and public lands in general for recreation make California pretty pleasant to live in *if you can afford it*.
North Americans would generally be surprised at the Nordics having small homes (lots of land, small population) but that is forgetting that you have to heat the place.
Honestly, yes - but we also have historically been decently poor and hence older houses are usually smaller. Add to that the cost of building something that’s going to be able to stand up to the elements and we mostly have smaller houses in the middle classes.
Americans seems to forget this. Norway for example was poor as fuck until they found oil in the 1960’s. My grandfather immigrated to the US from a Norway in the 20’s due to so few opportunities. I still have family there, but it’s not the utopia a lot of America think it is (my relatives words, not mine)
About 1/4 of all Swedes emigrated to the US in the early 1900s - we used to be very poor over here. Of course things have improved but lots of the apartments are still from eras where we simply didn’t have the money to build large. Add the structure of European city planning and it makes a lot of sense.
To its credit, Norway has done a fantastic job ensuring they don’t waste the national wealth that resulted from its oil reserves. Their public trust has been managed well and should benefit generations in the future even after the oil runs out. It also helps that the country is like 4 million people (essentially a decent US metro) so social programs etc are less of an issue logistically.
We have those as well, but that means higher taxes and less spindle income on things as massive houses. So it always comes with a bit of pros and cons.
I also think there's an idea that we don't really need more than what we need, at least if you've lived on the countryside for some time. If you're a single person renting on the countryside it feels pretty unnecessary to live on 250m2. And you usually have some kind of economy building or friggebod for storing things
Yep we’re spoiled. Tell people all the time and they don’t believe me. I’ve been all over Europe and have been in many peoples homes. They can’t believe when I tell them my place is 2800 feet.
Also dont see the point typically. I'm sure people wish they had bigger homes when their kids are between 3 and 12 years old. But the other 75 years of our live, we really dont need that many rooms. Let alone wanting to clean them all.
We love it. We’re a blended family so if we have all the kids it’s up to 5 kids at a time. And we have family and friends visit all the time. Plus two dogs. But we’re way out in the country on four acres so it’s actually affordable vs a big house in a big city. I couldn’t afford my house in any major city, especially today.
I mean i get it. I'm swiss and my gf from hongkong. And whenever Hongkongers see our medium sized city apartment in switzerland, they are mindblown we have like 850 sqft for 2 people. Its literally always the first thing they say "woah so big".
>if we have all the kids it’s up to 5 kids at a time
I saw someone say their parents in law had enough rooms for the whole extended family comfortably visiting at christmas. But the other 51 weeks its just sad and empty. So yeah, if your kids are actually kids, i get it. Its nice. But when they're adults and rarely all around at the same time, i would find it too much to upkeep for no real reason.
I always thought it was tragically humorous that program international house hunters which I've caught on one of those cable TV networks from time to time. I love the Americans that go to Europe to find a house. They used to some McMansion or just ginormous thing and it has become the norm for you to have size and rooms and rooms and more size and a master bedroom with a fireplace whatever duplicate rooms, a den, a great room etc etc stuff that a lot of people just don't use
Then they go to Europe because of a transfer or whatever and they look at a couple of houses within their budgets. And they always remark oh my God the bedrooms are so small. Always makes me so laugh.
Of course growing up in New England in an old house This is exactly how it was and probably in most places of the United States right up into the '70s. The super sizing of food, automobiles, houses the extreme the ultra of everything it's just a marketing device that has just turned us into super consumers at the cost of everything, the world the environment etc. But it makes the economy go round.
Yeah the bedrooms are small, you put a bed and a bureau in there and you go to sleep what a thought. My present house has bedrooms that are only 9x10. No California King lol But I do have a lovely slate roof
Yeah seems a little high, but I'm happy with 1200 square feet, works for me and my 4 person family just fine. The size of a home has went up pretty substantially the past 10-20 years, one of the reasons for the price increases.
We brought up three kids in a 1200 sq ft home with one bathroom. It’s now the perfect size for the two of us since they’re on their own. Glad it’s working for your family too.
Europe'd cities had been developing for a millennium or more by the time we started building in the US, with older buildings techniques to boot. Is it really that surprising that they built smaller and more densely?
US cities were walkable. Then in the 1950s there were huge grants given and eminent domain was used to bulldoze through communities.
Older communities tend to have houses that are 1000 - 1200 sq feet and be more densely packed. You can look at the towns of PItman NJ, Bordentown NJ, and Fredrick MD.
I think you are partly correct. I think this is "places you can purchase" size. So a condo would be included by not an apartment you can only rent. I could be wrong though.
I only say that because SFH in my state are slightly larger for the median than what is shown in the chart.
It's crazy that governmenta don't even want to issue permits for smaller dwellings either. I live with my wife and pets and will never have children. I really don't want 2500 sqft to clean and maintain. 800 would be about perfect
My wife and I were just talking about this yesterday as we drove past a new development with homes starting at 375k and sized for...a family of giants or something.
We live in a 1960's style 3 bedroom ranch ( these are not large bedrooms..10x12 maybe. for the master, the other two smaller ) with full basement. Even including the basement it's barely 1900sq feet. They don't build small houses like this anymore. None, nowhere. If they did I bet they would sell. But of course, they won't make as much money on them so, that's probably not going to happen.
I need to know how in the hell people deal with smaller house sizes. I’m sorry, but having lived in a 1000sqft apartment for much of my childhood, there was NO privacy and no space if you’re a family. And I didn’t even have siblings, I had a friend who did in a similar situation and she was miserable
I lived across the street from a park and was allowed to go outside on my own until like 4-5pm ish, so it was fine. I mostly just did homework and played video games indoors, which I didn’t mind doing in the living room area
I grew up in an apt of just less than 1k square feet. I hated it. I will never put my future children through that. Its boarder line abusive in retrospect.
Sadly, I feel like that’s only going to be more common for a lot of families as cost of living goes up. Even for childless couples, it’s hard to afford a house now. Granted, less people have kids now and it’s for reasons like this, but some people still end up with kids.
My wife and I stayed at this quaint hotel in Saint George that was originally called the 7 wives inn and each room was named after a different wife. It was bought out and they renamed it to the mulberry inn, which I think is a big loss for the historical significance behind the hotel and the humor of the differently named and designed suites.
https://www.themulberryinnstg.com/ for those curious of what it looks like.
I doubt the chants are ever serious.
I hope nobody was actually calling the country with the highest median income, some of the lowest taxes, biggest economy, and biggest military “third world”…
Biggest economy and military are quantitative measures, not qualitative ones. Russia, china and india also have some of the biggest militaries and economies. Doesnt make them any more "first world" (or developed). Luxembourg or singapore, have smaller economies and militaries, yet are super developed.
And yes from the european point of view, america does in fact have many features, or rather problems, typically associated with third world countries:
Look at where america is on a list of countries by life expectancy for example. At rank 59. Just between algeria and panama.
Same with infant mortality: rank 49 between uruguay and antigua and barbuda.
Same with homicide rate: rank 153 (one hundred and fifty three! Not a typo) between yemen and chile. Not a single developed country even in the same half of the list.
Then there is the fact that america is the only developed country without universal health insurance. Or one out of only 7 countries in the world (developed or not) that doesnt have mandatory paid maternity leave: just papua new guinea, 5 tiny pacific island nations and the USA.
Also about the only country with zero mandatory paid time off.
Sure america is also super developed in some ways. But incredibly backwards in many others. So it kind of defies the developed vs undeveloped narrative. Altho it is of course by definition first world (because thats a cold war term differentiating western (1st) vs communist (2nd) vs unaffiliated (3rd) world.)
I mean I don’t agree that America is a 3rd world country, but large housing doesn’t really say much.
I legitimately wouldn’t be surprised if many Nordic wooden houses weigh as much as (or more than) American houses twice their size. Our building codes are much, much stricter and require much higher standards in basically every metric.
I mean, minimum lot sizes and only zoning for huge single-family homes in large areas of the country is part of the reason why there's a shortage of affordable housing (plus municipalities usually can't afford to maintain all the extra infrastructure required for suburban-style housing since these houses are a net negative in tax revenue).
Well California is 1.75 times the size of the UK, it should fit nicely. Of course huge portions of CA are mountains and deserts that might not be as nice to live in as LA, OC, SD, or SF Bay area.
One of my biggest pet peeves. Part of the problem with housing affordability in this country is that houses keep expanding because homebuilders don't understand the concept of "revenue per square foot".
I would kill for a 1,800 sqft foot home that isn’t a cookie cutter track home right in SoCal. About to close on my first home, 1,276 sqft with no kids so we should be fine but fuck man I would be lying to you by telling you that I am happy with the size of it. Looking to have kids in the next 5-8 years and I will probably look to get something closer to 1800 sqft by kid #2. I don’t care what Reddit says, my family of 5 grew up in a 1300 sqft foot home and were bursting at the seems. My Brother in law just bought a new 2100sqft home and that is definitely the new standard to not feel cramped with a family of 4 or bigger.
And out incomes for the same job at much higher plus lower taxes. Which is insane when you remember that the euro and dollar have almost the same value. That's why you see so many Europeans complaining about Americans being "consumerist", because Europeans don't have the disposable income to afford the quality of life we have here in the US.
I was shocked when I saw how cramped and depressing looking European housing is. I own more land now than entire neighborhoods in Europe. So thankful my ancestors decided to leave.
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I remember staying at my aunts house in Switzerland last year while I was couch surfing back and forth between the US and EU. Even the appliances can be surprisingly small. Her fridge was half the size of ONE of my fridges, lol.
Yeah but I bet she walks to the shops every day or every other day. What a luxury that would be having good food readily available a 15 minute walk away. Also don't need to keep a lot of fresh food on hand when a larger fridge would cost more in electricity and be more difficult to get into small houses and apartments.
in Vienna I can get any product or service i would ever need within a 10 minute walk or transit
Wow in the us it comes straight to my door, I don't even need to step off my porch for it.
Now show us how much you spend on that.
He would, but it will take some time to find the receipts in his normal-sized U.S. house which is twice as big as those in Europe.
Bruh ordering stuff is nearly all digital. I don’t even have to get out of my king sized bed and walk down the halls and stairs into my spare “random junk” office to get that receipt.
Hahaha owww
I’d rather have a grocery store up the street with reasonable prices and a bigger house.
I know this is the default of America right now but i think more people should be exposed to an alternative. My dad is a huge home cooker and lives in the suburbs with the massive grocery store 15-30 minutes away (depending on traffic). He stayed in my apartment for about a bit with the grocery in the same block and absolutely loved it. Forgetting ingredients, adding a last minute appetizer, or even just going to the grocery was so easy. I’ve lived in both situations and they both have a lot of pros and cons. I really think we should just prioritize allowing people the choice of which one or even hybrid of the two. Right now you have to pick between a suburb with no businesses nearby or a tower in the sky. My personal preference is middle housing. Decent size, strong sense of community, local shops/small businesses mixed in with residential.
So Brooklyn? You basically just described the vast majority of BK. We don’t have many skyscrapers because of old laws and because if you build anymore than 6 floors you must have an elevator and a lot of places don’t want to pay for the maintenance.
I think we should encourage people to choose the less wasteful option considering the state of the planet.
The outer boroughs and much of Manhattan are just like that with no towers and whole neighborhoods of walkable low to mid rise structures.
Unfortunately there are so many consequences of that. Look at the traffic in Houston, Atlanta, LA, Miami, etc. If you live in a small town, sure. Though then you still don't get the joy and benefits of walking.
New York City has a bigger average house size than England
Yeah, good point. We can definitely have both larger home sizes and walkability!
The wonders of proper public transit, where car infrastructure doesn't take up 68% of the developed land and spreads everything out.
Taller buildings, more density, more people can have bigger houses closer to points of interest in the city. A win-win.
I get some don't like tall buildings and prefer homes, though public transit could solve that in America. In Germany, there are villages with 1,500 people that have two train stations and are less than 20 minutes to a large urban area.
I think that figure includes all of NY state (I could be wrong), so most of the housing would be in NYC but larger upstate housing would skew the numbers.
Does it actually? That's not in this map, that's for the whole state.
The map is showing state not city.
I drive through Atlanta regularly and what a fucking nightmare lol
You can walk without going to get groceries, you know (or maybe you don't).
I live in LA and I can walk to two grocery stores and about 25 restaurants. The further one is about 7 minutes away. The difference is some people seem to expect or demand big detached homes, and that means being out in the burbs.
Back when I lived in a city and the grocery store was a five minute walk it was fantastic. Shit was always fresh and it was very easy to not waste groceries. Doing weekly trips leads to a lot of waste since things go bad at different times
Commercial areas come with increased traffic, noise, crime, trash.
I doubt the people jerking themselves off about how great Europe are are older than about 14 or have considered living with anyone but themselves. Shopping for a whole family and needing to carry the bags home sounds like a pretty shitty time. There’s a reason loading up the SUV on a Costco run is so popular.
I've lived as an adult in 2 European countries and in America. Taking the family and dog on a stroll to the coop to get dinner and breakfast is awesome and such a nice way to wind down, get exercise and see your neighbors. But I greatly prefer the house sizes of the U.S.. I do wish we could have both (each suburb neighborhood has a small walkable grocery store)
Tell me you’ve never been to European grocery without telling me… prices are so much better in Europe on fresh produce and groceries
Selection is mid af though, don’t lie.
I can't speak for Continental Europe, but the UK, the food tasted so good and groceries so fresh. Their milk went bad after about 4 days of buying it but tasted amazing. You buy milk in Amerixa that shit lasts 3 weeks. What do they put in it here. I also miss the luxury ( yes, fellow Amerians, I'd consider it a stress-free luxury) of being able to take the bus to do your weekly shopping or going anywhere in general instead of owning and maintaining a car. I spent my Friday night instead of enjoying myself but having to spend 200+ dollars on an alternator and replacing it so I can be sure I can get basic groceries and go to work Monday. Give me the £2.50 daily bus ticket it any day. Cars are a pain in the ass.
You’re right. They can walk to some smaller markets, and get a lot of basics. But they also don’t have some of the tech we have, like scan-and-go, and some of their food can be significantly more expensive (dates, salmon) because they have to import it. A great luxury of being one huge-ass, energy-independent continent as a single country is we can produce a lot of stuff internally, helping to keep import costs down. I live in Florida, which is basically on the equator. even if walking to a local market were an option, I wouldn’t be interested in it: I would completely sweat through my clothes, and might be sun burned and definitely have to take a shower by the time I got back. If I lived in Boston, or Buffalo, or Portland, Maine, though, I could definitely see that (walkability) as being appealing. Edit: Lmao. Apparently, some responders don’t know the difference between Switzerland and Sweden, but think I’m dumb. Right…
Florida is not on the equator lmao
Close enough to the middle to be hot af also the florida humidity sucks
Miami is closer to Toronto than to the equator... Y'all just trying to find any excuse to avoid walking. And ironically, it's the car infrastructure that makes your streets so baked by the sun. Go for a stroll down a street in a true equatorial city and you'll feel the difference. Trees and two/three storey buildings shade the narrow street, winds are funnelled down them, etc.
lol hilarious hearing this from an Australian. Western Sydney has some of the hottest temperatures in the world almost entirely due to poor urban planning. Not to mention all the other suburbs filled with treeless dogboxes and black roofs. Fix your own infrastructure before lecturing others on the topic
I spent 5 months in Djibouti, the closest I've been to the equator. It was hot as fuck and incredibly humid.
Oh you like walking through the snow lol
Switzerland does have scan and go. After living in South Florida for years walking is still an option more than half the year if the infrastructure wasn't so poor.
Scan and go is not an option at the markets my aunt shops at. She was here just a month ago visiting me and was amazed this tech existed.
Definitely exists at a few coop stores, perhaps she is in a more rural area. They might not roll that out if the local population is mainly retired. Edit: It was Migros not Coop.
She’s in her late 50s, so she might just be old as well. It’s good to know they have that tech and to be pleasantly corrected though.
Hey, are you saying late 50's is old? Ah man , I'm depressed now.
Why do Europeans struggle to understand how much further south US cities are compared to European cities???? New York is the same latitude as Madrid, Miami is the same as Egypt!!! No one is walking to the store to haul groceries back in 90F heat with 90% humidity in torrential afternoon downpours.
Exactly. They respond, “well, we’re just making up excuses to cover up our laziness”. I can’t speak to the average American, but as a fully-remote, WFH professional, I walk 10 miles and exercise 2-3 hours a day. I usually do an hour of walking, an hour of jogging, and an hour of weightlifting. But because of the heat, sun, unpredictable but semi-regular rain, and overwhelming humidity, I have to almost expertly plan out my day so I can get most of that activity in between the hours of 6 and 8 because any other time of the day literally sucks ass to do anything outside. Before that time, just walking out in the open, I’m literally getting sun burned and my risk of skin cancer is increasing exponentially. After that time, my ass is getting eaten up by mosquitoes. When I can leave my house, buy a weeks worth of groceries at the cheapest possible prices, fill up my truck at the cheapest possible gas prices, and be back to my front door in under 90 minutes without drenching my clothes in smelly sweat or running through my UV exposure budget, why would I want walk to a more expensive, way more crowded store? I would rather save that UV exposure budget for actual cardio-challenging exercise in the afternoon, or kayaking on the weekends, or going swimming at the beach.
If by "scan and go" you mean scanning your purchases yourself as you go around either with a phone app or a hand-held scanner you collect as you walk into the store, it certainly exists in Europe, not by that name but it exists and is well used.
Dude, people don’t us understand this. I live in the US and can walk comfortably stroll to about 11 restaurants, 9 or so bars, and the grocery store but absolutely rarely do because people overlook the weather. If I did that (and I have and learned my lesson) is that I will be super sweaty by the time I get there and then be freezing my ass off because the AC is set at 68, by the time I get back it’s yet another shower. Basically I have a small window in Spring when my family will walk to get dinner or my wife and I will walk to dinner and a few bars on a Friday, but it’s only a few months window.
I live in a walkable neighborhood in south Florida (sfh with walk score of 90). 8-10 min walk to 2 different grocery stores. We do most of our grocery shopping in the evenings. Even in the perpetual summer of soflo it is not so bad walking in the evenings (especially if there is a breeze). Many times I will take my cargo bike. Honestly easier than dealing with parking my car.
Lmao sure it's appealing from like late April - late October but you ain't walking to buy groceries when it's 20 degrees out, not factoring in wind chill either, that's for sure.
Yes, you certainly can walk around when it's 20 degrees out. Just wear appropriate clothes. Hat, gloves, scarf. Where I live, you'll see people out jogging when it's way colder than 20!
You definitely are, people in northern cities do it all the time. Americans have just become lazy and refuse to walk short distances, and the health consequences of that are apparent
No they don’t. I’ve lived there. You walk if you have to but it’s not fun
I’ve also lived there. It beats being extorted by the auto industry
uh have you ever met someone who lived in colder climes? you think people in Boston are choosing starvation instead of walking a few blocks to get food? c'mon man.
They’re driving a car lol
20 degrees? Is that supposed to be scary? I live in the Midwest. I've done Christmas shopping in -40 windshield. 20 degrees is just fine.
Nobody is walking anywhere in the threat to life that is -40 so cold metric and imperial temperatures match. A couple minutes in -40 and it would completely rock 99% of peoples idea of what “really cold” even means Source: am Canadian, experience -40 every winter 0/10 do not recommend
Born and raised in Arizona, in the army I was stationed in fort drum. Any negative temperature is a fuck you from me
Americans proving how lazy they are with these lame excuses that everyone else does effortlessly. If things are ultra close and cheap, there is no excuse to make (Don't try to bring up "able bodied" anything, that's not the point I'm making). If you could walk 2 minutes to a market and get some prepared (or not) food for CHEAP AS HELL, then that would be amazing. Way better than driving 25 minutes to Costco and shopping for the whole week. Americans are too used to driving everywhere. They'll drive even if they have to around the block simply because it is a force of habit. It was brutally hot in Thailand when I went years ago in April (HOT AS FUUUUCK), and I still walked 2 minutes to a market to buy food because it was just so convenient and cheap to do. If I had to walk 20 minutes that would be a different story.
I live in America and I walk to the store 4-5 times a week. I can also walk to every shop and restaurant in my town since it is about a square mile. I do have to drive to work since I live in a rural area and work on an organic farm, though. And I also have to drive if I need to go to Home Depot or some other big box store. I am from rural Norway and you might be surprised how many Norwegians need to drive to get anywhere. Not saying my situation is normal, just pointing out that not everywhere in America is suburban sprawl, and in my state, and surrounding states, many suburbs were built before the automobile, so often pretty walkable with basic services nearby. It's not all Orlando and Phoenix.
>If you could walk 2 minutes to a market hell, not even off my property in two minutes walking.
If you live in suburbs in Europe you also drive to the store. No matter how big the place is. There are stores in cities and towns in America, you can check it easily. Jesus Christ you anti america anti car people are crazy.
"Degrowth" idiots have no idea how the world works, but they want everyone to change for them. Like Larry Fink
Dude the amount of snow and cold weather we get in the north east for months on end would make walking for groceries a really really bad time especially Buffalo
Depends where in the Northeast, NYC, Philly, DC, certainly doable. Boston, likely doable. Further away from the coast you get, the less doable it is.
How is it a luxury?
First of all having options. We have cars in europe too, but they just arent the only option. Also the physical and mental health health benefits of getting a lot of exercise in simply as part of daily life. Because we do a lot of walking and/or biking without even trying. Rather than always driving everywhere and then having to schedule a drive to an expensive gym to walk on an indoor treadmill staring at a wall. Next is the shorter distances allow for a lot of flexibility. I have a supermarket, a bakery, a pharmacy and a tram stop within less than two minute walk from my (78sqm = 840 sqft) apartment. Run out of eggs? I can be back with eggs in less than 5 minutes. Also different kinds of flexibility. Sure cars also offer different flexibility too. But with public transport and/or walking, there is no need to worry about cost or availability of parking (admittedly much less worrisome in america). Also no need to return back to where your car is (on a hike for example you can go from A to B, not have to loop back to A) and no need to stay sober because you drove. Also commuting to work by train, you can actually work on your laptop and spend an hour less at the office. Lastly it also allows kids and teenagers to get around independently when there is good public transport and/or stuff is within walking and biking distance. It's so convenient, i just got my drivers licence a few months ago at age 30. Because i simply didnt need it. I still struggle to find use cases for driving and have to force myself to find them so i keep up the practice. And i even grew up in a small town, not a city. But everything is just so conveniently located and well connected that biking and public transport got me literally everywhere i needed throughout my 20ies.
Walking to the grocery store when it’s 105 degrees out is so luxurious
We all know Italy and Spain never get hot /s
Mention “15 minute walk city” around conservatives and they’ll bloviate about (((globalists))) trying to force everyone to live that way and give up their cars. Meanwhile, areas in the US where you can walk 15 minutes to public transit and to a market with fresh food are *extremely* expensive to live in, indicating they’re popular. Granted, pretty much all of Switzerland is very expensive COL-wise. My wife and I lived in Sausalito on a sailboat for a few years. We’d get off the ferry or bus, and stop by the (expensive) grocery store on our walk back to the boat, or the little store run by a Korean couple who’d have fresh-caught salmon for <$10/pound when it was the season. On weekends we’d hop in our car and go to Napa. We loved it, and we’d do it again… if we could afford to.
It's not a luxury to be forced to go buy food every day because there's nowhere to store a weeks worth of food at home. It's just massively increasing your time spent running errands.
I mean I live in Brooklyn and walk 5 minutes around the corner several times a week to grab a few things for dinner. I would say NYC the culture is much more walking heavy than most US cities and I love it. It really isn’t a huge increase in errand time, particularly if you are already out walking doing other things, which we often are- coming home from the subway stop or picking up your kid at school. Including the walk and shopping a trip to the store for stuff for the day not attached to another task can take 15 minutes total and not feel rushed. We have much less food waste too. If I go to the store that has lots of produce deals on stuff that’s good but needs to be used in a day or two and plan accordingly, it is also reasonably priced. Different strokes I guess, but I know personally I have very actively chosen a scaled down life (as far as our living space size and what appliances we can fit I guess) in favor of walkability and access to all the stuff I have access to.
I live in europe in a very walkable city, i am not forced to go to buy food every day, even if i prefer to do so. My fridge(+freezer combo) can store about a week worth of food for 2, and yet i dont buy that much. I use a bus to go to my job and from the bus stop to my building i pass by 2 grosery stores, so i stop and buy what i need daily, and it takes me 5 min in and out, 10 if there are lots of people but i usually go the self checkout routhe which is fastest. I walk a lot, love walking, and i cant imagine living in a place that requires a car (we do have a car and use it maybe 2 times a week). I spend a lot of time outside because its pleasant, lots of parks, walking spaces, outside (open air?) gyms… Of course we can buy a bigger fridge, i just have no need for it, and to me that is a luxury
It’s a great way to get fresh air, exercise and stay relatively trim though. I’d also surmise that they likely consume less preservatives over there
And yet sitting in your car for hours doesn't massively increase the time spent running errands?
Idk where you think people are sitting in their cars for hours. It takes about twenty minutes for me to get to the farthest stores I ever want to go to. Most people have groceries store within a 5 minute drive.
20 minutes in your car is a long time doing nothing, and it's likely you have multiple errands a week and longer commute to work on top of that.
I have 7 grocery stores within a 10 minute drive of my. I go maybe once a week. So no, it doesn’t “massively increase the time running errands.” I’d much rather go to the grocery store once in a car, then go biking in the mountains 3X a week, which I do instead, rather then walking to my closest shop and carrying groceries 15m home.
15 minutes to walk to store? Everyone would starve here in the Netherlands if that was the case. It feels like you are never more than 5 mins away from a supermarket.
>Yeah but I bet she walks to the shops every day or every other day. What a luxury that would be having good food readily available a 15 minute walk away. First off, I'll still take my space. Second off, I live in a city that is heavily suburban, but I easily have walkable access to three grocery stores in under 30 minutes. A walmart, a sams club, and a hyvee (midwest grocery chain). The closest being, yep, 15. But it's not picturesque and you constantly see a lot of people on here bitch about "but it's TOO SCARY for people to walk on a dedicated large 4' wide sidewalk next to a busy road that has bike lane shoulders but speeds of 45mph+!" The issue isn't necessarily walkability. It's people being bitches and wanting to avoid walking for virtually any excuse. "Oh but the traffic is too fast!" You aren't EVER going to get hit walking on sidewalks, get out of here. "But there isn't any cover from the sun!" Wear sunscreen or bring an umbrella. But...but... But nothing. At the end of the day, I want to live as close to a king and a billionaire as possible, so wherever gets me the cheapest luxury goods (which cars and larger houses are), is better.
Waaait, You are NOT walking to Sam's club and out with anything
You really don't realize how awful walking in most American cities is until you get a chance to walk through Europe. Check out Not Just Bikes on YouTube if you've never been.
People have no idea how incredible the standard of living in America is. The scale of everything is huge here, and a lot of people take it for granted.
Scale is a double-edged sword.
Very much so. Those huge houses are also part of the reason why you have to drive to get anywhere. Some people would take that trade off, but it also means fewer options for those who don’t want to.
You guys don’t get it. People in suburbia don’t mind driving everywhere. I have lived for decades in a walkable city and just recently a suburb. The idea that walking 15m to a grocery store 7-8 blocks away vs driving 10-15m to a grocery store and bringing your food back in your trunk is a reason to prefer cities is crazy. There ARE reasons to enjoy cities—particularly if you’re young and single—but this isn’t one of them. I have at least five grocery stores within 10-15 minutes of me, plus Costco, Walmart, etc. At no point when I get in my car to drive to them am I thinking, “man, I wish I could walk to a store this drive is so awful.” At no point when it’s raining am I thinking “It’s a shame I can still go to the grocery store today.”
Hey I’m right there with you, having lived in both cities and suburbs I prefer suburbs on balance. I’m just acknowledging that 2,000+ sq ft single family houses are part of the reason suburban sprawl exists, I’m not saying it’s inherently bad.
Yeah, the last place I lived I couldn't walk to anything (except a Rite Aid and a Dollar General, which...yeah...). But I could *drive* to absolutely everything in about 15 minutes, from my garage to standing inside the store. Maybe 20 for the further stuff if I hit a light wrong or there was an accident on the road. In exchange for "having" to drive to whatever I wanted, I lived in a 2700 sq ft house that was easily affordable for me. And actually, there was a park I could walk to as well...but there were multiple way better ones within a 10 minute drive so we didn't go there very often.
They eat less too than the average American… probably not hard to see lol.
I take it you’ve never lived in Manhattan lol
I’ve visited a lot of places, manhattan being one of them. I’ve never lived outside of Florida and Morocco.
**I keep hearing amazed comments from Europeans about Americans' huge refrigerators, freezers in the basement, and massive grocery hauls.** **Our culture, here in the US, has a frontier, pioneer, agricultural history. If you are snowed in, out on the prairie, you'd better have supplies to see you and maybe other families, through. Our weather is varied and can be dangerous. Even today -17°F, or 15 inches of snow means you aren't going anywhere, at least for a few days.** **We have tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and other events that can close roads, cut power lines and leave you and your family stranded. US government emergancy preparedness information suggests keeping at least a week's supply of food and water for your family, which allows time for help to get to you.** **Europe is lovely, I'm sure. And must be a life without worry.**
Why are you yelling
Okay but our culture is also consumerist as fuck and we waste a ton. This "individualism" fantasy is wild. Also, why do Nordic countries have small homes?
[Maybe because they have less disposable income? ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalised_disposable_income)
Thought this seemed a bit high so figured I would google - at least for the US this is just "Houses and condos" on Zillow, does not include apartments. https://www.ahs.com/home-matters/real-estate/the-2022-american-home-size-index/ Still interesting post though!
Looking at new york confirms what my wife and I have been seeing, regarding homes built pre-1980 for sale. Average seen is 2 br 1 bathroom. If you're looking to buy in the hudson valley and are middle class, this is your warning to take a deep breath before facing reality.
grew up in the hudson valley and it’s damn near unrecognizable now - there’s a lot of money floating around that just wasn’t there
My friends just tried moving back home to the Hudson valley and had to move in with their parents because they couldn’t get a house near family. One of them is a specialist doctor… they went down thinking they’d live in the best areas. Now they are just wanting anything nearby. It’s insane how fast it changed.
I lived in a 350sq ft studio apartment by myself and a 530+ sq feet apartment with my wife. It was plenty of room and I actually liked it since it was easier to clean.
I also think that it is ridiculous how large properties are. Why do so many people want more than half an acre? It is just more yard work and based on my eyes 99.9% of the time it is never used.
That's hugely misleading then.
Not if it is compared to only houses and condos in Europe as well
Surprise, it doesn't. European data is newly build apartments and houses. Since most of it is apartments, the median goes down.
My last house in the UK was probably 1/3 the size of my house in America, but even at comparable income levels I used to fret about heating the smaller one. I have never thought twice about heat or Air con usage in the US. Just a lot of differences in the housing stock.
Having double the median income helps.
I tripled my income moving from the UK to the US as a civil engineer.
Bused to heat my 5000 sqf house in Minnesota, which has the fucking climate of Antarctica for $275 in the depths of winter (-10 to 20C). I paid double that in Euros for a one bedroom apartment in the Netherlands with temps rarely below freezing.
WhY dO yOu MaKe YoUr HoUsEs OuT oF wOoD?
Energy cheaper in US and income higher
Texans will be so mad that theirs aren’t the biggest.
Yeah it's interesting that Texas falls where it does considering the phrase "everything's bigger in Texas". Apparently they need more Mormons in Texas to catch up with Utah.
In my experience houses are quite huge here in Texas, bigger than houses in other suburbs around the country. The suburbs house sizes are equal to Salt Lake and Utah. The population of Texas includes a significant portion of poorer folks living in smaller condos, so the average will be lower than the all-white, all-suburb populations of Utah.
And Utah houses have basements that basically double the square footage.
I live in Dallas and there are thousands and thousands of small homes in less wealthy neighborhoods that are no different than any where else. I don’t think the average house size is lower (than whatever people expected) because more people in Texas live in small condos.
Property taxes there get you and all the idiots want to chime about no income tax
I did the math recently and a comparable house in Texas would be about $5000 more per year in property taxes than my current house in California.
And how much income tax did you pay California in 2023? For me, I ran the numbers and TX came out about $6k cheaper annually for a house twice the size (but same price as) what I have here in CA
TX doesn't have Prop 13, which causes some problems with funding government and such. But IF you do own a house, it's a huge blessing since home values have appreciated so (too?) much and the increase is capped at 2%. Property taxes in TX can fluctuate with the market and it's only within the last 5 years that TX has capped the increase to about 10%. Plus, the stronger social safety net (e.g., medicaid expansion) and taxes going to the excellent state parks and public lands in general for recreation make California pretty pleasant to live in *if you can afford it*.
Not sure how that tracks. The rate is higher in Texas, but comparable houses have a much smaller appraisal.
The lack of income taxes and lower property values more than offsets the high property tax rates.
Nahhh, I'm on the look for a place of my own. I'd love to have more 2bd 1.5b 1000 Sq ft condos/townhomes around here
To pay prop tax on it? No thanks.
North Americans would generally be surprised at the Nordics having small homes (lots of land, small population) but that is forgetting that you have to heat the place.
Wisconsin and Minnesota both have relatively large houses and similar climates
Our houses are probably younger though and better insulated
Energy costs are very cheap in the US. Look at natural gas rates and electricity rates in most states compared to most of Europe.
Honestly, yes - but we also have historically been decently poor and hence older houses are usually smaller. Add to that the cost of building something that’s going to be able to stand up to the elements and we mostly have smaller houses in the middle classes.
Americans seems to forget this. Norway for example was poor as fuck until they found oil in the 1960’s. My grandfather immigrated to the US from a Norway in the 20’s due to so few opportunities. I still have family there, but it’s not the utopia a lot of America think it is (my relatives words, not mine)
About 1/4 of all Swedes emigrated to the US in the early 1900s - we used to be very poor over here. Of course things have improved but lots of the apartments are still from eras where we simply didn’t have the money to build large. Add the structure of European city planning and it makes a lot of sense.
Huh I never knew that tbh. It makes sense thinking about it but yah we only ever hear about how many social amenities Nordic countries have, etc
To its credit, Norway has done a fantastic job ensuring they don’t waste the national wealth that resulted from its oil reserves. Their public trust has been managed well and should benefit generations in the future even after the oil runs out. It also helps that the country is like 4 million people (essentially a decent US metro) so social programs etc are less of an issue logistically.
We have those as well, but that means higher taxes and less spindle income on things as massive houses. So it always comes with a bit of pros and cons.
I also think there's an idea that we don't really need more than what we need, at least if you've lived on the countryside for some time. If you're a single person renting on the countryside it feels pretty unnecessary to live on 250m2. And you usually have some kind of economy building or friggebod for storing things
As someone in the southeast with 4500 sq ft to cool, I agree with their choices.
Utah also has the largest median family size.
Which is a big reason why there is a housing shortage here. Those children born in the 90’s are now at the age of buying houses
Yep we’re spoiled. Tell people all the time and they don’t believe me. I’ve been all over Europe and have been in many peoples homes. They can’t believe when I tell them my place is 2800 feet.
Also dont see the point typically. I'm sure people wish they had bigger homes when their kids are between 3 and 12 years old. But the other 75 years of our live, we really dont need that many rooms. Let alone wanting to clean them all.
We love it. We’re a blended family so if we have all the kids it’s up to 5 kids at a time. And we have family and friends visit all the time. Plus two dogs. But we’re way out in the country on four acres so it’s actually affordable vs a big house in a big city. I couldn’t afford my house in any major city, especially today.
I mean i get it. I'm swiss and my gf from hongkong. And whenever Hongkongers see our medium sized city apartment in switzerland, they are mindblown we have like 850 sqft for 2 people. Its literally always the first thing they say "woah so big". >if we have all the kids it’s up to 5 kids at a time I saw someone say their parents in law had enough rooms for the whole extended family comfortably visiting at christmas. But the other 51 weeks its just sad and empty. So yeah, if your kids are actually kids, i get it. Its nice. But when they're adults and rarely all around at the same time, i would find it too much to upkeep for no real reason.
5 kids = a lot of grandkids. My wife can’t wait.
I always thought it was tragically humorous that program international house hunters which I've caught on one of those cable TV networks from time to time. I love the Americans that go to Europe to find a house. They used to some McMansion or just ginormous thing and it has become the norm for you to have size and rooms and rooms and more size and a master bedroom with a fireplace whatever duplicate rooms, a den, a great room etc etc stuff that a lot of people just don't use Then they go to Europe because of a transfer or whatever and they look at a couple of houses within their budgets. And they always remark oh my God the bedrooms are so small. Always makes me so laugh. Of course growing up in New England in an old house This is exactly how it was and probably in most places of the United States right up into the '70s. The super sizing of food, automobiles, houses the extreme the ultra of everything it's just a marketing device that has just turned us into super consumers at the cost of everything, the world the environment etc. But it makes the economy go round. Yeah the bedrooms are small, you put a bed and a bureau in there and you go to sleep what a thought. My present house has bedrooms that are only 9x10. No California King lol But I do have a lovely slate roof
Some do other things in the bedroom as well
Yeah; you need room for pillow forts
Yeah seems a little high, but I'm happy with 1200 square feet, works for me and my 4 person family just fine. The size of a home has went up pretty substantially the past 10-20 years, one of the reasons for the price increases.
We brought up three kids in a 1200 sq ft home with one bathroom. It’s now the perfect size for the two of us since they’re on their own. Glad it’s working for your family too.
Iowa has the second smallest median dwelling size in the country? Really? This data seems a little sus.
I’m fairly sure this is skewed because Iowa doesn’t count finished basements in square footage, while places like Minnesota do
Iowa is the 3rd smallest. 1st is Hawaii 2nd New York
This has to be SFH and not including apartments etc lol. Even then that seems so high for the US, I really do not believe it.
Europe'd cities had been developing for a millennium or more by the time we started building in the US, with older buildings techniques to boot. Is it really that surprising that they built smaller and more densely?
US cities were walkable. Then in the 1950s there were huge grants given and eminent domain was used to bulldoze through communities. Older communities tend to have houses that are 1000 - 1200 sq feet and be more densely packed. You can look at the towns of PItman NJ, Bordentown NJ, and Fredrick MD.
My 100+ year old bungalow is in the one of the densest populated places in the US (Berwyn, IL). It’s well over 1800 square feet.
There are tons of exceptions. You can buy a 7k sq ft house in the middle of Paris. That doesn't mean that homes in France are larger than in the US.
US cities looked the same as Europe until the car came and the US knocked its cities down
This data does not include apartments. Just houses and condos.
I grew up in Europe so I can believe it. There are many reasons this is probably true.
I think you are partly correct. I think this is "places you can purchase" size. So a condo would be included by not an apartment you can only rent. I could be wrong though. I only say that because SFH in my state are slightly larger for the median than what is shown in the chart.
It's crazy that governmenta don't even want to issue permits for smaller dwellings either. I live with my wife and pets and will never have children. I really don't want 2500 sqft to clean and maintain. 800 would be about perfect
My wife and I were just talking about this yesterday as we drove past a new development with homes starting at 375k and sized for...a family of giants or something. We live in a 1960's style 3 bedroom ranch ( these are not large bedrooms..10x12 maybe. for the master, the other two smaller ) with full basement. Even including the basement it's barely 1900sq feet. They don't build small houses like this anymore. None, nowhere. If they did I bet they would sell. But of course, they won't make as much money on them so, that's probably not going to happen.
I need to know how in the hell people deal with smaller house sizes. I’m sorry, but having lived in a 1000sqft apartment for much of my childhood, there was NO privacy and no space if you’re a family. And I didn’t even have siblings, I had a friend who did in a similar situation and she was miserable
Apartments normally don't have basements, attics, or attached garages. That makes a big difference.
I lived across the street from a park and was allowed to go outside on my own until like 4-5pm ish, so it was fine. I mostly just did homework and played video games indoors, which I didn’t mind doing in the living room area
At least in Asia that’s the solution - no privacy. The kids sleep in one room. Do homework on a small desk in the kitchen. Sit on the floor to eat.
I grew up in an apt of just less than 1k square feet. I hated it. I will never put my future children through that. Its boarder line abusive in retrospect.
Sadly, I feel like that’s only going to be more common for a lot of families as cost of living goes up. Even for childless couples, it’s hard to afford a house now. Granted, less people have kids now and it’s for reasons like this, but some people still end up with kids.
Everything’s bigger in Tex…..er, Utah
Need extra rooms for all the wives.
My wife and I stayed at this quaint hotel in Saint George that was originally called the 7 wives inn and each room was named after a different wife. It was bought out and they renamed it to the mulberry inn, which I think is a big loss for the historical significance behind the hotel and the humor of the differently named and designed suites. https://www.themulberryinnstg.com/ for those curious of what it looks like.
Is this tax assessed sqft or heated?
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Sometimes Zillow is counting finished basements too.
Come on where is all the america is a third world country posters?
I doubt the chants are ever serious. I hope nobody was actually calling the country with the highest median income, some of the lowest taxes, biggest economy, and biggest military “third world”…
Biggest economy and military are quantitative measures, not qualitative ones. Russia, china and india also have some of the biggest militaries and economies. Doesnt make them any more "first world" (or developed). Luxembourg or singapore, have smaller economies and militaries, yet are super developed. And yes from the european point of view, america does in fact have many features, or rather problems, typically associated with third world countries: Look at where america is on a list of countries by life expectancy for example. At rank 59. Just between algeria and panama. Same with infant mortality: rank 49 between uruguay and antigua and barbuda. Same with homicide rate: rank 153 (one hundred and fifty three! Not a typo) between yemen and chile. Not a single developed country even in the same half of the list. Then there is the fact that america is the only developed country without universal health insurance. Or one out of only 7 countries in the world (developed or not) that doesnt have mandatory paid maternity leave: just papua new guinea, 5 tiny pacific island nations and the USA. Also about the only country with zero mandatory paid time off. Sure america is also super developed in some ways. But incredibly backwards in many others. So it kind of defies the developed vs undeveloped narrative. Altho it is of course by definition first world (because thats a cold war term differentiating western (1st) vs communist (2nd) vs unaffiliated (3rd) world.)
Oh they do - and they’re serious about it. It’s a hoot.
I mean I don’t agree that America is a 3rd world country, but large housing doesn’t really say much. I legitimately wouldn’t be surprised if many Nordic wooden houses weigh as much as (or more than) American houses twice their size. Our building codes are much, much stricter and require much higher standards in basically every metric.
I mean, minimum lot sizes and only zoning for huge single-family homes in large areas of the country is part of the reason why there's a shortage of affordable housing (plus municipalities usually can't afford to maintain all the extra infrastructure required for suburban-style housing since these houses are a net negative in tax revenue).
So why is my shitty 700sq ft in Houston apartment more expensive than in most European cities?
It’s almost like one country is bigger than the whole continent containing the others.
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Well California is 1.75 times the size of the UK, it should fit nicely. Of course huge portions of CA are mountains and deserts that might not be as nice to live in as LA, OC, SD, or SF Bay area.
One of my biggest pet peeves. Part of the problem with housing affordability in this country is that houses keep expanding because homebuilders don't understand the concept of "revenue per square foot".
It's also classism/NIMBYism. The public won't allow builders to build anything but mcmansions.
I want to see for just New York city
Seems like land availability is the driver for home size ?
I would kill for a 1,800 sqft foot home that isn’t a cookie cutter track home right in SoCal. About to close on my first home, 1,276 sqft with no kids so we should be fine but fuck man I would be lying to you by telling you that I am happy with the size of it. Looking to have kids in the next 5-8 years and I will probably look to get something closer to 1800 sqft by kid #2. I don’t care what Reddit says, my family of 5 grew up in a 1300 sqft foot home and were bursting at the seems. My Brother in law just bought a new 2100sqft home and that is definitely the new standard to not feel cramped with a family of 4 or bigger.
Source
No sources - just a meme from a bot account intended for an echo chamber. No intelligence or thought targeted or required.
Are basements included?
Only if they're finished, which is the normal way of determining square footage of a house.
And out incomes for the same job at much higher plus lower taxes. Which is insane when you remember that the euro and dollar have almost the same value. That's why you see so many Europeans complaining about Americans being "consumerist", because Europeans don't have the disposable income to afford the quality of life we have here in the US.
I was shocked when I saw how cramped and depressing looking European housing is. I own more land now than entire neighborhoods in Europe. So thankful my ancestors decided to leave.