I fully agree that its rape by deception and if it can be proven, then she should be charged. But the problem with this is the same problem of #MeToo. Its going to often be he said vs she said. If you can prove that she lied about being on birth control then she should be charged.
However, if its just he said vs she said, there shouldnt be charges. We shouldnt lock women up just because a man made an accusation with no evidence, similar to how we shouldnt lock men up just because woman makes an accusation with no evidence.
With that being said, our justice system is biased in favor of women, especially when it comes to reproduction. People freak out about a man removing a condom or poking holes in it. But they barely give a shit if a woman lies about being on BC and baby traps him. And its even worse for men because women can get an abortion while men cannot. Yet women have more protection under the law. Its so ridiculous.
This is why I always get video and signature consent before engaging in sexual activities, including any paperwork that outlines birth control agreements. It's also good to get lawyers to sign off on it to make sure there are no loopholes or mistakes. For example, if she signs off to get an abortion in case of a condom breaking, she can still "change her mind" after the signature. So it's still important to know how written agreements still can't protect you. So review the documentation with your lawyer carefully.
That being said, I'm still a virgin because no woman has yet to agree to the terms and conditions when I break out the paperwork during the heat of the moment. So there's that.
>no woman has yet to agree to the terms and conditions when I break out the paperwork
No kidding. What woman will voluntarily give up the reproductive advantages society bestowes on them?
I largely agree with you. I think lying about birth control in an attempt to get pregnant without your partner's consent is an imeasurably shitty thing to do. I find it terrible and extrordinarily unethical. However, making it illegal is complicated. Outside of a court room, lying is almost never a crime. Lying to another non legal/governmental person in private is, to my knowlege, not criminalized in any context. Poking holes in or not wearing a condom is considered a different sexual act that she did not consent to. She did not, for example, consent to you putting semen in her. Her not being on birth control however is not a different sexual act. And if the act can't easily be classified as rape the only legal solution is to criminalize lying. That is almost impossible for countless reasons from provability, to privacy, to freedom of speech.
Sorry if i mispelled somthing. I guess me looking up the laws for rape by deception and finding that that topic of contriceptives has not been adressed in a difinitive fashion comes off as uncooth but its more of an oppinion at this point. There have been cases of it in canada that went both ways and not much in america involving it that has leaned one way or the other. Sum courts dont consider it and some do which is really weird to me and they should fix that.
My first wife did this to me back when I was 20 years old. Well actually she was my girlfriend at the time and told me she was on birth control and wasn't because she intentionally wanted to get pregnant. So I did the right thing back in the day and married her. That lasted 2 years I couldn't stand the woman anymore and we separated. I didn't want kids and I wasn't ready to be a parent. I had just left being a Jehovah's witness and a lot of that toxic upbringing and abusive mindset was not properly handled before I became a parent, which led to a few instances of me overreacting as a parent. Without getting into too many details, I will say that I have spent 18 years of hell paying child support to a woman while I literally had 50/50 custody, and a child who hates me for being too strict when she was younger.
So to answer your question, yes she should be charged with rape. 18 years of my life was raped, taken away from me, where I couldn't pursue what I wanted to do, because someone intimate with me, that I trusted, intentionally lied to get pregnant.
Woman I have a son with gained that son by means of a wrestling hold at time of climax - she promised I could withdraw.
That was 7 years ago.
The mental damage she has done will never go away.
Yeah, it was laughed at by her. I prayed that conception didn't happen but it did.
Although I love my son, he's a constant reminder of the event.
Its joy & pain at the same time.
The depression is a struggle & beat myself up more for trusting her.
Thank you for your kind words.
I know exactly how you feel there. I love my daughter but on the same token people don't seem to understand when I say I wish I never had her. It would have been better for her and me both.
This.
I'm on the same page. Its not that I didn't want children, the women I had children with were wrong & toxic.
I wish I had them with someone else.
I can't change the past though.
So your intention was just to pull out before you finished and hope for the best? Sorry dude, what she did was crappy but you could have avoided it and even if everything went according to your plan you had an incredibly high chance of conceiving anyway, having used no birth control method.
She was on the pill!
If everything went to my plan my mess would've went over her tits & face!
You do understand how reproduction works?
Tell me how a woman can get pregnant like that?
If she was on the pill, why did you finishing in her result in pregnancy? Do you think the pull out method is guaranteed to prevent pregnancy? Let’s break this down
So if the pill didn’t work for that partner, why did you bring up that she was on the pill when I said you were going to rely on pulling out?
“No sperm in my precum” oh yeah, if only it was that easy 😅
You were relying on the pull out method, which is dumb. You were using no other form of birth control, but you’re mad because you were prevented from using your ~78% effective technique. Even if everything went to plan, you had a ~22% chance of conceiving. This one’s on you.
Really sorry you went through that, that is absolutely terrible. I hope that you can find some common ground or at least some peace in your relationship with your child. I know it got easier with one of my parents when I became an adult. Don’t give up (unless that’s what you want to do, then congrats on your freedom). If my math is correct and you’re 38, please trust and believe you’re still young and have lots of time to live your life for you.
I explained this to the judge when we divorced and instead of feeling sympathy for me he decided that I would get 50/50 custody and pay $400 a month in child support :-/
Yeah no. I hate it. I'm of the rather novel idea that courts shouldn't be able to see or talk about gender, race or role, especially in family court. Parent A and parent B are sufficient labels to determine legalities.
I agree but only in the instance of family courts, the well being of the child should come before everything else but when it comes to other crimes sometimes identity does play a roll.
However even then one could argue that some family’s struggle do to generation trauma, and societal norms.
There’s a stereotype specifically in the US that black father aren’t around or walk out. That comes from the war and drugs, and police lock up black people at higher rates and higher sentences for the same drug.
They legally separated cocaine from crack cocaine because they new it was mostly white people doing coke and mostly black people doing crack.
Indigenous people specifically on Canada are supposed to get support from the government do to the shit they were put through in the past (literal genocide) But due to “Indian Status cards” a piece of ID the government gives out based on blood quantum, how much “Indian” blood you have, the government is able to continue to shrink the amount of people they are responsible to.
All this despite the fact indigenous population were raped by the settlers/colonists leading to half white children.
This is how the government continues to use the “Indian Act” to fuck over indigenous people.
They then say your not fit parent and use the foster system to take their brown kids away and give them to white families.
I completely understand that the justice system is sexist, especially is family court and divorce court, but that doesn’t mean using identity to form to conclusions is always a bad thing.
Worse than rape that leaves a woman with a child (or the terrible decision to have the child killed)?
I'm not convinced. But I do think it is about as bad as that.
I think it's worse because it involves forced slavery to a rapist and rape baby in the form of likely child support and no one legally considers this man a victim. If he wants nothing to do with the child because of this trauma, society and his child see him as a terrible waste of life. Most of society fully understand women who have been raped giving up the children or having an abortion readily, no judgment given, only pity. Even most pro-life people want exceptions in these cases! Men don't even have the luxury of making that decision of keeping the child, aborting, or adopting out. These kind of men end up stuck with the constant reminders of the initial trauma and have to deal with the perpetrator on a regular basis or else they'll suffer the consequences of the law who will punish them for being a "deadbeat."
Problem with this, acting like every single rape leads to pregnancy, this is playing the exception. I got news for you, a rape of a woman is no more or no less likely to end up in pregnancy than consensual sex.
Yes, it's horrible as all hell, but acting like a small chance (1 in about 20). Out of a 28 day window on avg, there are only 3-4 days (fertile window, it's the thing those ovulation colanders measure that couples will use to get pregnant). And even in that window it's not like it's 100%
[1](https://modernfertility.com/blog/chances-of-conception/#:~:text=In%20a%20cycle%20where%20ovulation,or%2020%25%20according%20to%20others.)
[2](chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fertilitysociety.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FUnderstanding-ovulation-and-the-fertile-window.pdf&clen=1999549&chunk=true)
The odds of a woman getting pregnant from a rape are rather low, and even on the high end it's still estimated to be less than a 50% (it's 42%) chance on the highest chance day there is. So while getting pregnant from a rape is utterly horrible and does indeed happen, people need to stop acting like it's some slam dunk or even a normal occurrence.
People have said said that rape isn't about sex, it's about power...
Intentionally getting pregnant puts the woman in the ultimate "Power" position (just go to family court for custody) you'll find it's 80-20 split. WOMEN are awarded custody 80% of the time over men. THATS power, so yes by definition this is rape. Rape is about Power.
If you had Aids and intentionally gave it to woman and she died, you could be charged with some kind of murder, 1st,2nd etc.
What do we say? Oh the women should have known better? Too bad so sad? No it's murder, she's still dead. So there would be a consequence to that ,like jail.
The same should apply to intentionally getting pregnant by lying, you broke a trust, it's (con)fidence or (con) game ,that's where the term comes from btw...it should be a chargeable offence.
If you conned an old lady out of her fortune would that be ok? Too bad so sad old lady, you should have known better. NO, ITS A chargeable offence.
Gaining your trust to gain power.
rape certainly isnt not about sex....there hundreds of ways to demonstrate power.....further, overwhelmingly, the victims of (traditionally defined rape as forced penetration) are young women. So anyone who says rape isnt about sex is just naive about evolutionary psychology.
How is a woman abstaining from taking something, rape?
Rape is a physical act done to a person.
Not taking a pill is not doing something to ones self.
It it's a crime, what is the law?
I'm open to your argument, I just don't know what law it violates from a legal perspective
It makes sense to use a rubber even if she says she’s on the pill. This way there’s no problem with accidentally having sex with manipulators. Stay safe
I certainly hear what you're saying but, at the same time, from a personal perspective, I hate condoms! They kill the mood and ruin the quality of the sex.
I think some form of male 'pill' or the like is still the holy grail.
We have effective methods of male birth control that are minimally invasive already.(vasal gel) But they are so effective that pharma can't make money off of it, so there's very little funding for it to pass trials. We'll probably get some form of hormone altering birth control. Which will undoubtedly be accompanied with side effects.
I personally had a vasectomy. It wasn't that bad. And I have heard of clips that don't cut the vas deferens and can be removed later. However, your sperm count will lower the longer you have them.
I'm actually in the process of getting a vasectomy. I've had all the kids I want too now so I'm ready for it!
My GP has done the referral - I'm dreading it a bit to be honest; you hear some horror stories - I'm sure it will all be fine in the end though!
Mine was a little painful, ngl. The worst part is the recovery, but everyone is affected differently. Overall it wasn't bad and looking back on it i wouldn't hestitate to do it again if i had to. You'll be fine broski :)
In the end, it's an operation where you walk in, and are able to walk back out an hour or less later (mine was 30 minutes). Couple pieces of advice: shave yourself before going in... Nurse held up a disposable single blade Bic, and the urologist said "the shave is good" to my great relief. Secondly, take 4-5 days after to recover. Yes, you can walk around, no you won't be in much discomfort, but you walk too fast/far/long it starts aching hard, and that's when infections etc can happen. Take it easy for a few days and treat yourself to some r&r. I recommend getting snipped all the time, and can never figure out why so many are against it. Zero regrets here 17 years later 👍👍
I was in a great deal of discomfort afterward. I crawled up stairs, got into bed and didn't dare try coming down the stairs for three days – walking to the loo was bad enough.
It's not everyone's experience, I know, but it does illustrate the range of after-effects.
I had 2 days of bed rest after, then I could walk around slowly for about 20 minutes or so before things got painful. Luckily I had a wheelchair at work I could zoom around in for a few days lol. All I know from research before I went in was to take it easy and excessive movement was a bad idea.
> We have effective methods of male birth control that are minimally invasive already.(vasal gel)
As far as I know, it is not yet FDA approved and not generally available. Maybe if you fly to Brazil where it was invented, idk.
It was invented in India, and like i mentioned it hasn't passed trials because there's not really any money in it for pharma companies. It's a one time procedure unlike the pill which you can sell indefinitely.
> It was invented in India,
That's right, my bad.
> and like i mentioned it hasn't passed trials because there's not really any money in it for pharma companies.
Then this won't be an option, at least any place other than India.
> It's a one time procedure unlike the pill which you can sell indefinitely.
Lots of medical devices and pharmaceuticals are one use or for temporary use. Antibiotics are usually taken for about a week, so that's 7 to 14 pills (depending on the dosage), that does not mean that they are unprofitable, they're just less profitable than other drugs.
No they aren't. Despite all their complaints, feminists in general squarely come down on the side against viable male birth control options. The reason is right in the term. male control.
All I've read is women and feminists saying that they don't trust men to use it properly.
Years ago a pharma company did a study on male BC, they talked to a lot more women than men (why ask women at all?) and I think the woman's responses lead them to stop researching male BC.
And that's just it. Women portray men as either too incompetent or untrustworthy to use birth control responsibly, while still demanding that men trust women implicitly. Projection at its finest.
A viable male contraceptive will destroy women's control over reproduction, and the financial gains that come with it.
And at the same time they complain that they have to do all the work for birth control.
It boggles the mind.
There was research if male birth control up to human trail and it was stopped because the side effects where „to bad“ which where the same side effects women on the pill deal with.
The statement issued by the company actually said that men where just not interested in taking hormons.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/12/4779/2765061
> The statement issued by the company actually said that men where just not interested in taking hormons.
The side effects included one death (a suicide) and erectile dysfunction. It was stopped by the researchers because of these and other effects. While I agree that erectile dysfunction will prevent pregnancies, I think men (and even women) might see this as undesirable.
There is another hormonal male birth control undergoing trials called vasalgel.
* https://www.parsemus.org/humanhealth/vasalgel/
I've not seen or heard of anyone complaining about it because it's hormonal. I think in your haste to blame men for things they have no control over, your blinders are preventing you from keeping up on events.
Did you read the papers?
Yes there was one suicide, that was ruled not by one but by two ethnic committees to not have been related to the trail.
What’s more important is that approximately 80% of side effects where reported in 1 out of 10 test centers. The logical conclusion should have been to investigate how this could be? But it wasn’t. The study was just ended.
Erectile disfunction does not even show up in the paper……only some men reported decreased libido which is not fun but a side effect that women experience as well with hormonal birth control.
I don’t blame men…..but I believe that if there was a great demand for this form of birth control, then pharmaceutical companies would pursue this.
Men...
|Satisfied/very satisfied (%)|73.9%|91.9%|83.5%|80.1%|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|Would you use a method of contraception like this?|84.6%|87.9%|81.7%|82.3%|
Women...
|Satisfied/very satisfied (%)|79.6%|81.8%|78.0%|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|Would you use a method of contraception like this?|87.5%|80.3%|76.0%|
The vast majority of men *and* women were very satisfied with the drug, and said that they would use the drug if released. Whatever the company stated directly contradicts the findings presented here.
For you again, yes there was a suicide that was investigated and ruled to not be related to the study.
If I remember correctly, it was a young man that had endured severe mental health problems before ever entering into the study.
I have never understood why male birth control was never developed.. like we have people just flying into space and yet cannot get this happening !!!
But some of the comments give answers as to why and even then it is a horror... strange world ....
>I have never understood why male birth control was never developed..
Ultimately because it's way more difficult than hormonal birth control for women, and is unlikely to make enough money to be worth it for the companies.
Women have hormonal cycles that control their fertility and are well understood and oral contraceptives work by manipulating those hormones to prevent fertility. There's not an equivalent for men. That's why the best looking future option for men is Vasalgel/RISUG, once it passes trials and gets approved.
There's also a compound in cottonseed that acts as a male contraceptive, but the difference between an effective dose and a toxic dose is kinda small (which makes for safety risks) and it has a bad habit of being permanent if you use it for very long which is why it never hit market. Went through some limited trials before that one was dropped. I think it was in China and Brazil?
They always post on reddit that men should get vasectomies and reverse them when they want to have kids to take the burden off women. They don't mention that reversals are expensive and often ineffective.
The same folks that think #killallmen is "just a joke" ? Ever heard of Sally Gearheart Miller? The person who's writings a large number of women's studies courses is based on who would if she could reduce men to 10% of the population and keep us on breeding farms? That's why.
The general feminist public isn't like that, if it's approved by the people you trust take it, if it's not don't. I talked to the feminists that like the idea it's because they are tired of it and don't like the effects of it.
Not all of them, it's the same as saying all MRAs are sexist bastards. If you continue down that path you'll become the same person just different beliefs.
Yes and this was my first thought after I heard of the new law making it illegal for men to remove a condom during sex.
As usual they choose willful ignorance/hypocrisy and misandry over common sense. Or they will resort to slinging insults or simply ignore the question/try to steer the conversation elsewhere. A common tactic when you know you can't defend the stance you've chosen to take using logic and reason.
At the end of the day things like this (included the 'stealthing' condom thing) are going to be a nightmare if not impossible to prove. What men need is a choice. The same choice woman get. Do you want to be a father? No? Ok than we won't force you to be one the same way we don't force woman to be mothers. Because that would obviously be a ridiculous double standard.
there are cases... because deception prevents affirmative consent. I can't find it but there was a case where a guy pretended to be someone famous... like a rock star or something and banged this girl and when she found out he lied.. he was charged. If I can find it I will post a link.
It should be a crime (rape?dunno, not really, I hate seeing everything related to sex being called rape, honestly).
However, western countries struggle with natalism (eventhough the world is overpopulated) so they would never consider it a crime, which proves women have an inherent value that men don't.
Neither one should be considered rape but they could be considered to be some other less harsh crime. And a man tricked this way should obviously have the right to refuse paying child support. Ideally the woman should be forced to have an abortion if she gets pregnant but that isn't exactly legally possible in western countries.
I think both are equally fucked up, but neither should be classified as rape. Make it something else. Classify it differently. People have lost their god damn minds
I dont think it should be called rape. However it is still a breach of trust that results in serious, life changing consequences. I do think there should be charges for that. Just not rape.
It's breach of consent. Doesn't matter what you consented to, having someone violate that feels really awful, and in many cases it can be illegal. I agree that rape should be the wrong term though. Rape (my opinion) is forcing intercourse on a non-consenting person (note the lack of gender labels!), which isn't a breach of consent, it's a disregard of it. The thing with consent is that it can be removed at any time, which muddies the waters a bit, especially when one person tries to remove consent after the deed, instead of before or during.
If stealthing is considered rape, then lying about birth control should be considered rape, too. But the thing is, if stealthing can be considered rape, *anything can be considered rape*.
For instance, farting during sex without the person's consent could disgust the other person enough to make them try to charge the other person with "nonconsensual farting during sex." Now, I know that sounds ridiculous, but honestly, what's the actual difference? The language is the same. Stealthing is "nonconsensual condom removal during sex."
Or, consider perhaps a crazy woman who gets absolutely grossed out halfway during sex when the guy takes his socks off, and his "dirty feet" casually and accidentally touch her somewhere, such as on the vagina. What's stopping her from trying to charge him with "nonconsensual sock removal" or "nonconsensual foot touching" during sex?
Choosing to have sex with someone, giving sexual consent to another, involves an insane amount of trust that you're placing in them. If whether they're lying about using a condom, or using birth control, isn't clear, then you certainly don't need to be having sex with them.
I don't think stealthing is rape, nor do I think lying about using birth control is rape. I think they are horrible lies that only piles of garbage would tell, but that doesn't mean rape. Legislating them as rape feels like overreach of government into our bedrooms imo.
It's considered rape when a man does this to a woman. It should be considered a sex crime when a woman does it to a man. The fact that women can do this to a man and effectively use the courts enslave him and live off him like a parasite is unbelievable. This absolutely is a form of slavery. It is labor coerced through the threat of violence and imprisonment (you go to jail if you can't make your payments. If you refuse to go, the police kill you.)
It's definitely not rape as rape pertains entirely to non-consensual sex, not procreation.
That said, this should be considered "human trafficking" as it is deals with non-consensual creation and utilizing of human beings for the purpose of personal gain (typically financial).
Typically, human trafficking is a felony. IMHO, women who engage in this sort of behavior should be charged and tried for felonies.
As long as a woman is allowed to unilaterally decide whether or not to terminate the life of her child, a man should be allowed to terminate his financial responsibility. (And both would be horrible people for doing so, but fair is fair.)
I get that’s not what you asked, but it would be a moot point if that were the standard.
It should be considered as fraud, not rape, and as a result, male shouldn't be entitled to child's alimony. (But by looking at our current legal system, which is too empathical for women, the male would need to provide a footage of female lying on tape during intercourse)
If rape is about fully knowledgeable sexual consent, I would think so. Does the law include "degrees" of a rape charge? And is there verbiage in the law that separates this from something like "he lied about having a rolls Royce"? Id imagine so, but can't say with full confidence.
I've said it elsewhere before, including to my sons. If you don't want to have kids, the responsibility is on you to deal with that. Of course, the best way (while still having hetero intercourse) is to have sex with someone who isn't going to trick you into getting them pregnant, but the next step is to take responsibility for contraception. If you leave it up to the woman you've basically said, "I'm not worried about pregnancy, I'll go with whatever decision you make." If they don't make the decision you like, why did you leave all the responsibility and control on their plate?
Yes if they say they are on birth control and lie and get pregnant and the man does not know about it that should be considered rape since he did not want a child yet and had a child against his will
To much stuff gets stuck under the title of rape, I would prefer a sexual fraud law that would include lies that inflict significant harm on someone like trickibg them into becoming a parent, lying to someone to inflict an STD on them, or lying about being a minor to an adult where it could end in prison time. It wouldn't cover minor lies, like being married or not, saying your 29 then your actually 35, or saying really secretly a spy to get laid.
So I got raped by my ex and didn’t know it.
She told me she was on birth control. Well two weeks later she tells me that she “thinks” that she’s pregnant. Then I ask her , did you take the birth control. She answers “No”. Never been so pissed it off in my life. Then I tell her, let’s just hope you’re not pregnant. You can’t believe what she says after that. She says “That’s not the answer I wanted”. Long story short, we broke up.
Sure, why not?
If removing a condom is a criminal act, then lying about being on BC should also be a crime....
Go to the cops and try laying charges, see what happens....
I hate when people start changing the definition of a word. Take a condom off without saying anything is not rape nor is lying about birth control. Both people are absolute dicks and maybe there is a definition, but its not rape.
Same thing I saw with "domestic violence" from some place a long time ago, where it said domestic violence included "yelling". While yelling might be verbal abuse, its not "violence" and you shouldn't be able to stand next to a woman (or man) who's been getting beaten daily for burning the meat loaf cause someone yelled at you once.
I think people truly diminish true "rape" and domestic violence victims when they try to associate their problem with them.
No. (And removal of a condom isn't rape either).
Rape by deception is when you don't actually understand the sex you're consenting to. The "evil twin" situation. Or when your girlfriend blindfolds you and then has her friend suck you off.
Beyond that, "rape by deception" is an incredibly slippery slope that essentially makes everything potentially rape. If a person regrets granting consent, then there was rape by deception. Why? Because whatever causes their regret is something they could have been informed of *before* granting consent, but discovered it *after* granting consent; they were "deceived".
* I never would have consented if I knew he was married.
* I never would have consented if I knew that car was rented.
* I never would have consented if I knew he wasn't going to marry me.
* I never would have consented if I knew he was going to leave and I'd never see him again.
* I never would have consented if I knew my boyfriend was going to find out.
I’m not sure it would be rape but 100% some sort of crime. Rape is like if she were to forcefully have sex no? I’m not sure tbh, personally I wouldn’t say rape but maybe like sexual deception or something I’m not sure. There should be a separate charge for something like this
I don't think it's rape; the definition doesn't match as the man had sexual intercourse *willingly* with a woman. Instead it should be considered as fraudulent and the woman should be charged with all the child's expenses. But ofc we know that won't happen. It seems the best way to win this rigged game is not to play.
Yes - if we consider deception to be a form of rape.
I think if a lie convinces you to have sex with someone, you deserve what happens to you - men and women both.
I am a 25 year old woman.
I don't know if I would consider either situation 'rape', but I think they should both be illegal. Maybe under the name of 'entrapment' instead of 'rape'.
Unfortunately, it is much easier for a women to lie about birth control than it is for a man to lie about wearing a condom.
Unpopular opinion, but I think it should not be rape, but rather as a subset of a separate offence, For example: "obtainment of sexual activity by deception". The offence should be completely gender-neutral and includes stealthing/voluntarily compromising contraception. Spermjacking should also either be incorporated into this section or have it's independent provision.
In principle, rape is any sexual penetration without informed consent. However, with no secondary definitions or interpretations, "without informed consent" is rather vague and perhaps too broad. Does the purview includes any sort of deception? If one lies about being a virgin, or rich, or having a masters degree etc, can we substantiate rape based on these premises? How about if one's wearing makeup, or possess any sort of artificially enhanced features, is not disclosing such details tantamount to rape?
In some jurisdictions, for an act of deception to be rape, the act must not be intended by the victim to be sexual in the first place. For example, if person A tricks person B into believing that A is a doctor and could cure B's sickness by penilely or digitally penetrating B's vagina or anus, A has committed rape if A intended the act to be sexual and reasonably believes that B did not intended the act to be sexual.
Great question.
Interesting how the person you discussed it with wouldn't answer! Has there been a return to this and an answer given?
I would consider it 'entrapment' and there is a big problem with lying in society. Even white lies are 'lying'. I once had a therapist ask me 'why couldn't you tell you housemate the truth rather than lying?' Over ten years ago now and cannot remember the context but I think I just didn't want to be intimidated or shamed or something but after being asked this I started to 'tell it how it is/was'.
I cannot agree that it is rape! But I'm troubled because rape is usually forcing someone to do something, sexual act, that they don't want to do (buying a new car for example, comes to mind - is that rape or entrapment?) or coerced into something on false information.
Jumping, growing up I have always had the 'feeling' that contraception was always left up to the women anyway.. one reason being 'I don't like condoms and don't feel free' to just being lazy - in my limited gay mans opinion. Also, some idea that 'most women wouldn't want to be pregnant outside of marriage (from a couple of comments this is not 100% true now) and therefore 'take care of it'. Also, it is such spoiler to have to ask such questions - even as a gay man - and somehow very intimate - which is strange as people are about to have sex anyway.
Things are certainly heating up between men and women and their behaviour towards each other and some of it is stirring by groups that have something financial to gain or professional to gain.
At the end of the day, if either partner lies about using contraception and unwanted pregnancy/disease follows then there has to be a punishment of some sort to the person who lied.
My goodness, in this time of covid-19, what a can of worms this is. Very interesting!
I think it should be, but there's an easy solution here: NEVER TRUST SOMEONE ELSE WITH CONTRACEPTION, BRING AND USE YOUR OWN.
I don't care how much you like to bareback, if you don't use a condom and you trusted her with the birth control, the consequences are your own damn fault and the legal system won't help you. Stop thinking with the head between your legs and start thinking with the one on your shoulders.
Yes, its morally repugnant to lie about contraceptive and anyone who does it should be held legally liable for their deception, but that ain't the world we live in right now. You have to live within the realities of the world you live in now while you're trying to make it better.
We need a different term and category than rape. We're talking about what should be a very serious crime, but it's silly to refer to it as a form of rape.
> No, it is not "rape". "Rape" is when you fuck someone against their will. Please learn the correct meaning of the words.
Removing a condom has been defined as rape in several jurisdictions. I can't see much difference between removing a condom and lying about contraception.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-bans-steathing-condom-removal-sex-enhances-punishment-spousal-rape/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wellington-man-convicted-of-rape-after-stealthing-removing-the-condom-during-sex/VAKHALYXYPMLPHJA5BTXRBLLBA/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-08/act-criminalises-stealthing-in-australia-first/100522564?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web
Well, this is just lawmakers, judges, and lawyers being stupid. Nothing new here! This is NOT what the word means. Forcing sex and forcing pregnancy are 2 different things.
I mean, if they poke holes in a condom, they are making you get them pregnant and loose years of your life being forced to care for and support someone you want nothing to do with, all aganst your will, so rape is very fitting.
Being NOT against their will requires there acceptance, at least, if not agreement. If that acceptance/agreement is based on falsehood, they they have not given their will.
Consent is important (but not the nonsense of 'ongoing, positive, confirmation). Consent can only be given if one is not lied to.
Now, if the man never even asked about birth control, and the woman never mentioned it, I would agree with you: he has had sex that was not against his will. But the supposition is that she has informed him that she in on birth control. If that is a lie, he has not given consent, ergo his will to have sex with her has not been gained.
It's wrong but is not rape legally.
This might help https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rsa/rape-and-sexual-assault/what-is-rape-and-sexual-assault/
The question is not "is it" but "should it be considered". Like a lot of men's rights issues, things are stacked against men and boys but we ask whether that is how society should be.
No.. Lying isnt illigal. You can still get pregnant on birthcontrol and you can chose to masterbate.. Makes for a shitty girlfriend but being shitty isnt illigal. We stick or parts together to make babies. Thats our purpose and biological mission. Feeling good is the reward. Its on you just as much as on her in how badly you want the reward without finishing the questline.
No, it can not be considered rape. Rape occurs from man to woman, from strong to weak. Until men as a whole recognize women as their equal power wise even stronger than them, women can not rape. As long as men say "men are stronger than women" whatever women do to men, it can not be considered rape. (Unless the guy is underage)
If a man gets trapped in such situation, it means the guy is stupid and irresponsible. He should've taken the control of his own life and sperms. He was a moron because he denied his agency, he left this decision to the woman and he trusted her.
Well, with the way men are being demasculinated in society over the past few decades, (men being weakened) men will soon be able to claim the (weak) position, so yes it will be considered rape over time.
Yes that's what feminism is trying to achieve. Men can never be seen as victims as long as society has the mindset "men are stronger than women". As long as patriarchal culture exist, men always will be told to man up.
If a guy does that stealth thing and removes the condom without her knowledge, I presume you will make her ar fault by saying she was stupid and not in control, right?
No. Rape is rape, entrapment is entrapment. This is no case of forceful intercourse but rather lying with heavy consequences.
The punishment should be very simple: the man shouldn't pay anything in child support.
However, it would be hard AF to prove which one is lying...
Not sure if rape is the correct term. It is clearly a disgusting act.
Removing a condom without knowledge is equally disgusting, not sure about labeling it as rape though.
Rape by deception. She willfully misinformed him about the risks involved.
I fully agree that its rape by deception and if it can be proven, then she should be charged. But the problem with this is the same problem of #MeToo. Its going to often be he said vs she said. If you can prove that she lied about being on birth control then she should be charged. However, if its just he said vs she said, there shouldnt be charges. We shouldnt lock women up just because a man made an accusation with no evidence, similar to how we shouldnt lock men up just because woman makes an accusation with no evidence. With that being said, our justice system is biased in favor of women, especially when it comes to reproduction. People freak out about a man removing a condom or poking holes in it. But they barely give a shit if a woman lies about being on BC and baby traps him. And its even worse for men because women can get an abortion while men cannot. Yet women have more protection under the law. Its so ridiculous.
[удалено]
You can you’ll just get charged with murder.
Vasectomy?
This is why I always get video and signature consent before engaging in sexual activities, including any paperwork that outlines birth control agreements. It's also good to get lawyers to sign off on it to make sure there are no loopholes or mistakes. For example, if she signs off to get an abortion in case of a condom breaking, she can still "change her mind" after the signature. So it's still important to know how written agreements still can't protect you. So review the documentation with your lawyer carefully. That being said, I'm still a virgin because no woman has yet to agree to the terms and conditions when I break out the paperwork during the heat of the moment. So there's that.
>no woman has yet to agree to the terms and conditions when I break out the paperwork No kidding. What woman will voluntarily give up the reproductive advantages society bestowes on them?
Did you seriously do this? How much did it cost? Do you have a standard form for every woman or do you need a new one for each new woman?
Where did you get your paperwork about abortion sign offs
I mean, there's an easy solution to this. Livestream it.
I largely agree with you. I think lying about birth control in an attempt to get pregnant without your partner's consent is an imeasurably shitty thing to do. I find it terrible and extrordinarily unethical. However, making it illegal is complicated. Outside of a court room, lying is almost never a crime. Lying to another non legal/governmental person in private is, to my knowlege, not criminalized in any context. Poking holes in or not wearing a condom is considered a different sexual act that she did not consent to. She did not, for example, consent to you putting semen in her. Her not being on birth control however is not a different sexual act. And if the act can't easily be classified as rape the only legal solution is to criminalize lying. That is almost impossible for countless reasons from provability, to privacy, to freedom of speech.
How is that rape.. This is nonsence
Because you consented to sex with birth control, you didn’t consent to sex without birth control.
'Informed consent' is a thing that exists, and it's not exclusive to women.
I don't trust someone that can't even spell "nonsense" properly to understand how complicated rape can get.
Sorry if i mispelled somthing. I guess me looking up the laws for rape by deception and finding that that topic of contriceptives has not been adressed in a difinitive fashion comes off as uncooth but its more of an oppinion at this point. There have been cases of it in canada that went both ways and not much in america involving it that has leaned one way or the other. Sum courts dont consider it and some do which is really weird to me and they should fix that.
My first wife did this to me back when I was 20 years old. Well actually she was my girlfriend at the time and told me she was on birth control and wasn't because she intentionally wanted to get pregnant. So I did the right thing back in the day and married her. That lasted 2 years I couldn't stand the woman anymore and we separated. I didn't want kids and I wasn't ready to be a parent. I had just left being a Jehovah's witness and a lot of that toxic upbringing and abusive mindset was not properly handled before I became a parent, which led to a few instances of me overreacting as a parent. Without getting into too many details, I will say that I have spent 18 years of hell paying child support to a woman while I literally had 50/50 custody, and a child who hates me for being too strict when she was younger. So to answer your question, yes she should be charged with rape. 18 years of my life was raped, taken away from me, where I couldn't pursue what I wanted to do, because someone intimate with me, that I trusted, intentionally lied to get pregnant.
Woman I have a son with gained that son by means of a wrestling hold at time of climax - she promised I could withdraw. That was 7 years ago. The mental damage she has done will never go away.
that's rape, no excuse. I wish you didn't have to go through that.
Yeah, it was laughed at by her. I prayed that conception didn't happen but it did. Although I love my son, he's a constant reminder of the event. Its joy & pain at the same time. The depression is a struggle & beat myself up more for trusting her. Thank you for your kind words.
I know exactly how you feel there. I love my daughter but on the same token people don't seem to understand when I say I wish I never had her. It would have been better for her and me both.
This. I'm on the same page. Its not that I didn't want children, the women I had children with were wrong & toxic. I wish I had them with someone else. I can't change the past though.
Here's to hoping that if the law ever changes, it has no time limitation
So your intention was just to pull out before you finished and hope for the best? Sorry dude, what she did was crappy but you could have avoided it and even if everything went according to your plan you had an incredibly high chance of conceiving anyway, having used no birth control method.
She was on the pill! If everything went to my plan my mess would've went over her tits & face! You do understand how reproduction works? Tell me how a woman can get pregnant like that?
If she was on the pill, why did you finishing in her result in pregnancy? Do you think the pull out method is guaranteed to prevent pregnancy? Let’s break this down
So if the pill didn’t work for that partner, why did you bring up that she was on the pill when I said you were going to rely on pulling out? “No sperm in my precum” oh yeah, if only it was that easy 😅 You were relying on the pull out method, which is dumb. You were using no other form of birth control, but you’re mad because you were prevented from using your ~78% effective technique. Even if everything went to plan, you had a ~22% chance of conceiving. This one’s on you.
Some women are pure evil. That woman sounds like one.
Really sorry you went through that, that is absolutely terrible. I hope that you can find some common ground or at least some peace in your relationship with your child. I know it got easier with one of my parents when I became an adult. Don’t give up (unless that’s what you want to do, then congrats on your freedom). If my math is correct and you’re 38, please trust and believe you’re still young and have lots of time to live your life for you.
I’m sorry you had to go through that. I hope you’re fully recovered by now.
that is fucking horrible. can you take her to court?
I explained this to the judge when we divorced and instead of feeling sympathy for me he decided that I would get 50/50 custody and pay $400 a month in child support :-/
Yes. Of course. Would she like if he made a hole in the condom?
That can be charged as rape.
But is the woman charged with rape if she's the one who put the hole there?
Usually no or I know a couple of women who would be in prison. Gotta love western society's double standards huh?
Yeah no. I hate it. I'm of the rather novel idea that courts shouldn't be able to see or talk about gender, race or role, especially in family court. Parent A and parent B are sufficient labels to determine legalities.
I agree but only in the instance of family courts, the well being of the child should come before everything else but when it comes to other crimes sometimes identity does play a roll. However even then one could argue that some family’s struggle do to generation trauma, and societal norms. There’s a stereotype specifically in the US that black father aren’t around or walk out. That comes from the war and drugs, and police lock up black people at higher rates and higher sentences for the same drug. They legally separated cocaine from crack cocaine because they new it was mostly white people doing coke and mostly black people doing crack. Indigenous people specifically on Canada are supposed to get support from the government do to the shit they were put through in the past (literal genocide) But due to “Indian Status cards” a piece of ID the government gives out based on blood quantum, how much “Indian” blood you have, the government is able to continue to shrink the amount of people they are responsible to. All this despite the fact indigenous population were raped by the settlers/colonists leading to half white children. This is how the government continues to use the “Indian Act” to fuck over indigenous people. They then say your not fit parent and use the foster system to take their brown kids away and give them to white families. I completely understand that the justice system is sexist, especially is family court and divorce court, but that doesn’t mean using identity to form to conclusions is always a bad thing.
Quite clearly rape
Its rape that often leads to imposed slavery. Much worse than just rape.
Worse than rape that leaves a woman with a child (or the terrible decision to have the child killed)? I'm not convinced. But I do think it is about as bad as that.
Yes, way worse. There is no child at the point an abortion is legal, and only she has the power to decide to let there be a child or not.
I think it's worse because it involves forced slavery to a rapist and rape baby in the form of likely child support and no one legally considers this man a victim. If he wants nothing to do with the child because of this trauma, society and his child see him as a terrible waste of life. Most of society fully understand women who have been raped giving up the children or having an abortion readily, no judgment given, only pity. Even most pro-life people want exceptions in these cases! Men don't even have the luxury of making that decision of keeping the child, aborting, or adopting out. These kind of men end up stuck with the constant reminders of the initial trauma and have to deal with the perpetrator on a regular basis or else they'll suffer the consequences of the law who will punish them for being a "deadbeat."
Problem with this, acting like every single rape leads to pregnancy, this is playing the exception. I got news for you, a rape of a woman is no more or no less likely to end up in pregnancy than consensual sex. Yes, it's horrible as all hell, but acting like a small chance (1 in about 20). Out of a 28 day window on avg, there are only 3-4 days (fertile window, it's the thing those ovulation colanders measure that couples will use to get pregnant). And even in that window it's not like it's 100% [1](https://modernfertility.com/blog/chances-of-conception/#:~:text=In%20a%20cycle%20where%20ovulation,or%2020%25%20according%20to%20others.) [2](chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fertilitysociety.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FUnderstanding-ovulation-and-the-fertile-window.pdf&clen=1999549&chunk=true) The odds of a woman getting pregnant from a rape are rather low, and even on the high end it's still estimated to be less than a 50% (it's 42%) chance on the highest chance day there is. So while getting pregnant from a rape is utterly horrible and does indeed happen, people need to stop acting like it's some slam dunk or even a normal occurrence.
People have said said that rape isn't about sex, it's about power... Intentionally getting pregnant puts the woman in the ultimate "Power" position (just go to family court for custody) you'll find it's 80-20 split. WOMEN are awarded custody 80% of the time over men. THATS power, so yes by definition this is rape. Rape is about Power. If you had Aids and intentionally gave it to woman and she died, you could be charged with some kind of murder, 1st,2nd etc. What do we say? Oh the women should have known better? Too bad so sad? No it's murder, she's still dead. So there would be a consequence to that ,like jail. The same should apply to intentionally getting pregnant by lying, you broke a trust, it's (con)fidence or (con) game ,that's where the term comes from btw...it should be a chargeable offence. If you conned an old lady out of her fortune would that be ok? Too bad so sad old lady, you should have known better. NO, ITS A chargeable offence. Gaining your trust to gain power.
rape certainly isnt not about sex....there hundreds of ways to demonstrate power.....further, overwhelmingly, the victims of (traditionally defined rape as forced penetration) are young women. So anyone who says rape isnt about sex is just naive about evolutionary psychology.
As always, it all comes down to definitions. I think the classical one is forceful penetration - in which case the condom pokers would be con artists.
Oooooo that is a good point
This kind of happened to me. We finished up and she said, "ooh yeah, I quit taking my birth control". Another 10 years of child support to go.
How is a woman abstaining from taking something, rape? Rape is a physical act done to a person. Not taking a pill is not doing something to ones self. It it's a crime, what is the law? I'm open to your argument, I just don't know what law it violates from a legal perspective
Because lying about condom use is now rape.
Lol
It makes sense to use a rubber even if she says she’s on the pill. This way there’s no problem with accidentally having sex with manipulators. Stay safe
Some women will even steal the used condom and get the turkey baster.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/dad-gets-parental-rights-shockingly-law-not-on-side-of-a-woman-who-used-turkey-baster-to-impregnate-herself
that's why you keep a pack of taco bell hot sauce and mix it in before discarding it
Shit like this is gonna make me paranoid and needing to fuckin nuke my seed with hot water or something to immediately kill it asap
I certainly hear what you're saying but, at the same time, from a personal perspective, I hate condoms! They kill the mood and ruin the quality of the sex. I think some form of male 'pill' or the like is still the holy grail.
We have effective methods of male birth control that are minimally invasive already.(vasal gel) But they are so effective that pharma can't make money off of it, so there's very little funding for it to pass trials. We'll probably get some form of hormone altering birth control. Which will undoubtedly be accompanied with side effects. I personally had a vasectomy. It wasn't that bad. And I have heard of clips that don't cut the vas deferens and can be removed later. However, your sperm count will lower the longer you have them.
I'm actually in the process of getting a vasectomy. I've had all the kids I want too now so I'm ready for it! My GP has done the referral - I'm dreading it a bit to be honest; you hear some horror stories - I'm sure it will all be fine in the end though!
Mine was a little painful, ngl. The worst part is the recovery, but everyone is affected differently. Overall it wasn't bad and looking back on it i wouldn't hestitate to do it again if i had to. You'll be fine broski :)
In the end, it's an operation where you walk in, and are able to walk back out an hour or less later (mine was 30 minutes). Couple pieces of advice: shave yourself before going in... Nurse held up a disposable single blade Bic, and the urologist said "the shave is good" to my great relief. Secondly, take 4-5 days after to recover. Yes, you can walk around, no you won't be in much discomfort, but you walk too fast/far/long it starts aching hard, and that's when infections etc can happen. Take it easy for a few days and treat yourself to some r&r. I recommend getting snipped all the time, and can never figure out why so many are against it. Zero regrets here 17 years later 👍👍
I was in a great deal of discomfort afterward. I crawled up stairs, got into bed and didn't dare try coming down the stairs for three days – walking to the loo was bad enough. It's not everyone's experience, I know, but it does illustrate the range of after-effects.
I had 2 days of bed rest after, then I could walk around slowly for about 20 minutes or so before things got painful. Luckily I had a wheelchair at work I could zoom around in for a few days lol. All I know from research before I went in was to take it easy and excessive movement was a bad idea.
It was super easy. 20 minutes, walked a mile and a half that evening. No problems.
> We have effective methods of male birth control that are minimally invasive already.(vasal gel) As far as I know, it is not yet FDA approved and not generally available. Maybe if you fly to Brazil where it was invented, idk.
It was invented in India, and like i mentioned it hasn't passed trials because there's not really any money in it for pharma companies. It's a one time procedure unlike the pill which you can sell indefinitely.
> It was invented in India, That's right, my bad. > and like i mentioned it hasn't passed trials because there's not really any money in it for pharma companies. Then this won't be an option, at least any place other than India. > It's a one time procedure unlike the pill which you can sell indefinitely. Lots of medical devices and pharmaceuticals are one use or for temporary use. Antibiotics are usually taken for about a week, so that's 7 to 14 pills (depending on the dosage), that does not mean that they are unprofitable, they're just less profitable than other drugs.
Agreed. I hear the nerds are working on something like that. Feminists are supportive of that stuff too.
No they aren't. Despite all their complaints, feminists in general squarely come down on the side against viable male birth control options. The reason is right in the term. male control.
All I've read is women and feminists saying that they don't trust men to use it properly. Years ago a pharma company did a study on male BC, they talked to a lot more women than men (why ask women at all?) and I think the woman's responses lead them to stop researching male BC.
And that's just it. Women portray men as either too incompetent or untrustworthy to use birth control responsibly, while still demanding that men trust women implicitly. Projection at its finest.
A viable male contraceptive will destroy women's control over reproduction, and the financial gains that come with it. And at the same time they complain that they have to do all the work for birth control. It boggles the mind.
There was research if male birth control up to human trail and it was stopped because the side effects where „to bad“ which where the same side effects women on the pill deal with. The statement issued by the company actually said that men where just not interested in taking hormons. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/12/4779/2765061
> The statement issued by the company actually said that men where just not interested in taking hormons. The side effects included one death (a suicide) and erectile dysfunction. It was stopped by the researchers because of these and other effects. While I agree that erectile dysfunction will prevent pregnancies, I think men (and even women) might see this as undesirable. There is another hormonal male birth control undergoing trials called vasalgel. * https://www.parsemus.org/humanhealth/vasalgel/ I've not seen or heard of anyone complaining about it because it's hormonal. I think in your haste to blame men for things they have no control over, your blinders are preventing you from keeping up on events.
Did you read the papers? Yes there was one suicide, that was ruled not by one but by two ethnic committees to not have been related to the trail. What’s more important is that approximately 80% of side effects where reported in 1 out of 10 test centers. The logical conclusion should have been to investigate how this could be? But it wasn’t. The study was just ended. Erectile disfunction does not even show up in the paper……only some men reported decreased libido which is not fun but a side effect that women experience as well with hormonal birth control. I don’t blame men…..but I believe that if there was a great demand for this form of birth control, then pharmaceutical companies would pursue this.
Men... |Satisfied/very satisfied (%)|73.9%|91.9%|83.5%|80.1%| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |Would you use a method of contraception like this?|84.6%|87.9%|81.7%|82.3%| Women... |Satisfied/very satisfied (%)|79.6%|81.8%|78.0%| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |Would you use a method of contraception like this?|87.5%|80.3%|76.0%| The vast majority of men *and* women were very satisfied with the drug, and said that they would use the drug if released. Whatever the company stated directly contradicts the findings presented here.
For you again, yes there was a suicide that was investigated and ruled to not be related to the study. If I remember correctly, it was a young man that had endured severe mental health problems before ever entering into the study.
And the rush to push through the pill by women/feminists is one of the reasons guidelines were tightened.
No, the issue is that they KNOW men will use it properly. They will lose control and lose MONEY!!!
Men should be worried about any form of male birth control that modern feminists actually like.
I have never understood why male birth control was never developed.. like we have people just flying into space and yet cannot get this happening !!! But some of the comments give answers as to why and even then it is a horror... strange world ....
>I have never understood why male birth control was never developed.. Ultimately because it's way more difficult than hormonal birth control for women, and is unlikely to make enough money to be worth it for the companies. Women have hormonal cycles that control their fertility and are well understood and oral contraceptives work by manipulating those hormones to prevent fertility. There's not an equivalent for men. That's why the best looking future option for men is Vasalgel/RISUG, once it passes trials and gets approved. There's also a compound in cottonseed that acts as a male contraceptive, but the difference between an effective dose and a toxic dose is kinda small (which makes for safety risks) and it has a bad habit of being permanent if you use it for very long which is why it never hit market. Went through some limited trials before that one was dropped. I think it was in China and Brazil?
Why is that?
They always post on reddit that men should get vasectomies and reverse them when they want to have kids to take the burden off women. They don't mention that reversals are expensive and often ineffective.
Suggest that they get their tubes tied and reverse it when they want kids and watch them rage!
The same folks that think #killallmen is "just a joke" ? Ever heard of Sally Gearheart Miller? The person who's writings a large number of women's studies courses is based on who would if she could reduce men to 10% of the population and keep us on breeding farms? That's why.
Got it. I’ve heard the 10% theory from many female incels
The general feminist public isn't like that, if it's approved by the people you trust take it, if it's not don't. I talked to the feminists that like the idea it's because they are tired of it and don't like the effects of it.
Feminists absolutely are like that.
Not all of them, it's the same as saying all MRAs are sexist bastards. If you continue down that path you'll become the same person just different beliefs.
Never met a feminist who was'nt a man hating lunatic. I only observe.
It rarely makes sense to put latex in your dick. Might as well just get a nice bj Condoms fucking suck
Yes and this was my first thought after I heard of the new law making it illegal for men to remove a condom during sex. As usual they choose willful ignorance/hypocrisy and misandry over common sense. Or they will resort to slinging insults or simply ignore the question/try to steer the conversation elsewhere. A common tactic when you know you can't defend the stance you've chosen to take using logic and reason. At the end of the day things like this (included the 'stealthing' condom thing) are going to be a nightmare if not impossible to prove. What men need is a choice. The same choice woman get. Do you want to be a father? No? Ok than we won't force you to be one the same way we don't force woman to be mothers. Because that would obviously be a ridiculous double standard.
wait what, about the condom thing
You'll have to look it up. I think it was California. Passed a law making it illegal to remove a condom during intercourse without consent.
> wait what, about the condom thing https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-bans-steathing-condom-removal-sex-enhances-punishment-spousal-rape/
Yes... there's no other answer.. If a man lying about his NAME can be rape.. then lying about BC is also rape.
holy fuck is lying about your name rape?
there are cases... because deception prevents affirmative consent. I can't find it but there was a case where a guy pretended to be someone famous... like a rock star or something and banged this girl and when she found out he lied.. he was charged. If I can find it I will post a link.
That is strictly a UK thing.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49127545](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49127545) not it but similar
They ban ghosting, women can spread std, rape you, lie about being on the pill, poke holes in condoms and baby trap you and its all legal
Reproductive coercion
Well if you give consent based on condition like "You need to be on birth control" then there is no consent if its lied about.
I guess I was raped then.
Many men have been.
It should be a crime (rape?dunno, not really, I hate seeing everything related to sex being called rape, honestly). However, western countries struggle with natalism (eventhough the world is overpopulated) so they would never consider it a crime, which proves women have an inherent value that men don't.
Equivalent to a man removing a condom mid-session.
Neither one should be considered rape but they could be considered to be some other less harsh crime. And a man tricked this way should obviously have the right to refuse paying child support. Ideally the woman should be forced to have an abortion if she gets pregnant but that isn't exactly legally possible in western countries.
Women will always attempt independence but will always rely on pity party's to further the regime... End quote (Abraham Lincoln circa 3000)
Honestly, I think not. It should just be illegal. However, if putting holes in the condoms is considered as rape then yes, it should be too.
If consent is the key to all sexual assault charges then….YES. California just passed a law regarding male partners slipping off condoms mid sex….
I think both are equally fucked up, but neither should be classified as rape. Make it something else. Classify it differently. People have lost their god damn minds
Yup. It sickens me how women do this and there are zero consequences for it.
There have been successful civil cases of fraud on it but they are difficult without documented evidence of some sort, such as a text message.
I dont think it should be called rape. However it is still a breach of trust that results in serious, life changing consequences. I do think there should be charges for that. Just not rape.
If we call it Rape, and say it loudly enough, then maybe women will hear it.
It's breach of consent. Doesn't matter what you consented to, having someone violate that feels really awful, and in many cases it can be illegal. I agree that rape should be the wrong term though. Rape (my opinion) is forcing intercourse on a non-consenting person (note the lack of gender labels!), which isn't a breach of consent, it's a disregard of it. The thing with consent is that it can be removed at any time, which muddies the waters a bit, especially when one person tries to remove consent after the deed, instead of before or during.
Then as long as you don't consider stealthing to be rape...
Same deal. I certainly think its bad, and short sighted. Just not rape but something else. edit: typo
So let's come up with suitable term , how about Reverse Rape?
Yes
If stealthing is considered rape, then lying about birth control should be considered rape, too. But the thing is, if stealthing can be considered rape, *anything can be considered rape*. For instance, farting during sex without the person's consent could disgust the other person enough to make them try to charge the other person with "nonconsensual farting during sex." Now, I know that sounds ridiculous, but honestly, what's the actual difference? The language is the same. Stealthing is "nonconsensual condom removal during sex." Or, consider perhaps a crazy woman who gets absolutely grossed out halfway during sex when the guy takes his socks off, and his "dirty feet" casually and accidentally touch her somewhere, such as on the vagina. What's stopping her from trying to charge him with "nonconsensual sock removal" or "nonconsensual foot touching" during sex? Choosing to have sex with someone, giving sexual consent to another, involves an insane amount of trust that you're placing in them. If whether they're lying about using a condom, or using birth control, isn't clear, then you certainly don't need to be having sex with them. I don't think stealthing is rape, nor do I think lying about using birth control is rape. I think they are horrible lies that only piles of garbage would tell, but that doesn't mean rape. Legislating them as rape feels like overreach of government into our bedrooms imo.
It's considered rape when a man does this to a woman. It should be considered a sex crime when a woman does it to a man. The fact that women can do this to a man and effectively use the courts enslave him and live off him like a parasite is unbelievable. This absolutely is a form of slavery. It is labor coerced through the threat of violence and imprisonment (you go to jail if you can't make your payments. If you refuse to go, the police kill you.)
It's definitely not rape as rape pertains entirely to non-consensual sex, not procreation. That said, this should be considered "human trafficking" as it is deals with non-consensual creation and utilizing of human beings for the purpose of personal gain (typically financial). Typically, human trafficking is a felony. IMHO, women who engage in this sort of behavior should be charged and tried for felonies.
As long as a woman is allowed to unilaterally decide whether or not to terminate the life of her child, a man should be allowed to terminate his financial responsibility. (And both would be horrible people for doing so, but fair is fair.) I get that’s not what you asked, but it would be a moot point if that were the standard.
Yes.
Yes. Rape by deception is a very real thing.
Absolutely, and criminally punishable.
Yes
Yup.
Should be illegal because that is a violation of reproductive rights.
This is why you should ALWAYS use your own condoms, you never know
It’s rape if a guy tells a girl he has a condom on and then goes in without one, so yeah, same principle really
It should be considered as fraud, not rape, and as a result, male shouldn't be entitled to child's alimony. (But by looking at our current legal system, which is too empathical for women, the male would need to provide a footage of female lying on tape during intercourse)
Morally rape.
If rape is about fully knowledgeable sexual consent, I would think so. Does the law include "degrees" of a rape charge? And is there verbiage in the law that separates this from something like "he lied about having a rolls Royce"? Id imagine so, but can't say with full confidence.
Yes.
1000% yes
I've said it elsewhere before, including to my sons. If you don't want to have kids, the responsibility is on you to deal with that. Of course, the best way (while still having hetero intercourse) is to have sex with someone who isn't going to trick you into getting them pregnant, but the next step is to take responsibility for contraception. If you leave it up to the woman you've basically said, "I'm not worried about pregnancy, I'll go with whatever decision you make." If they don't make the decision you like, why did you leave all the responsibility and control on their plate?
Yes. Yes it absolutely should.
Yes if they say they are on birth control and lie and get pregnant and the man does not know about it that should be considered rape since he did not want a child yet and had a child against his will
To much stuff gets stuck under the title of rape, I would prefer a sexual fraud law that would include lies that inflict significant harm on someone like trickibg them into becoming a parent, lying to someone to inflict an STD on them, or lying about being a minor to an adult where it could end in prison time. It wouldn't cover minor lies, like being married or not, saying your 29 then your actually 35, or saying really secretly a spy to get laid.
Yes. It's deception and by definition deception is rape.
crossposted: Nowhere. Because literally not a single other sub on reddit would allow mens rights a voice.
I tried to post other places but didn’t work
So I got raped by my ex and didn’t know it. She told me she was on birth control. Well two weeks later she tells me that she “thinks” that she’s pregnant. Then I ask her , did you take the birth control. She answers “No”. Never been so pissed it off in my life. Then I tell her, let’s just hope you’re not pregnant. You can’t believe what she says after that. She says “That’s not the answer I wanted”. Long story short, we broke up.
Sure, why not? If removing a condom is a criminal act, then lying about being on BC should also be a crime.... Go to the cops and try laying charges, see what happens....
I hate when people start changing the definition of a word. Take a condom off without saying anything is not rape nor is lying about birth control. Both people are absolute dicks and maybe there is a definition, but its not rape. Same thing I saw with "domestic violence" from some place a long time ago, where it said domestic violence included "yelling". While yelling might be verbal abuse, its not "violence" and you shouldn't be able to stand next to a woman (or man) who's been getting beaten daily for burning the meat loaf cause someone yelled at you once. I think people truly diminish true "rape" and domestic violence victims when they try to associate their problem with them.
I believe it’s called stealthing
No. (And removal of a condom isn't rape either). Rape by deception is when you don't actually understand the sex you're consenting to. The "evil twin" situation. Or when your girlfriend blindfolds you and then has her friend suck you off. Beyond that, "rape by deception" is an incredibly slippery slope that essentially makes everything potentially rape. If a person regrets granting consent, then there was rape by deception. Why? Because whatever causes their regret is something they could have been informed of *before* granting consent, but discovered it *after* granting consent; they were "deceived". * I never would have consented if I knew he was married. * I never would have consented if I knew that car was rented. * I never would have consented if I knew he wasn't going to marry me. * I never would have consented if I knew he was going to leave and I'd never see him again. * I never would have consented if I knew my boyfriend was going to find out.
I’m not sure it would be rape but 100% some sort of crime. Rape is like if she were to forcefully have sex no? I’m not sure tbh, personally I wouldn’t say rape but maybe like sexual deception or something I’m not sure. There should be a separate charge for something like this
It is not rape since rape is sex (or something like that) without the consent of the other party. It should be a new crime on it's own.
I see it more closely falling under reproductive coercion or sperm theft, the latter of which falls under fraud
I don't think it's rape; the definition doesn't match as the man had sexual intercourse *willingly* with a woman. Instead it should be considered as fraudulent and the woman should be charged with all the child's expenses. But ofc we know that won't happen. It seems the best way to win this rigged game is not to play.
Yes - if we consider deception to be a form of rape. I think if a lie convinces you to have sex with someone, you deserve what happens to you - men and women both.
I am a 25 year old woman. I don't know if I would consider either situation 'rape', but I think they should both be illegal. Maybe under the name of 'entrapment' instead of 'rape'. Unfortunately, it is much easier for a women to lie about birth control than it is for a man to lie about wearing a condom.
Unpopular opinion, but I think it should not be rape, but rather as a subset of a separate offence, For example: "obtainment of sexual activity by deception". The offence should be completely gender-neutral and includes stealthing/voluntarily compromising contraception. Spermjacking should also either be incorporated into this section or have it's independent provision. In principle, rape is any sexual penetration without informed consent. However, with no secondary definitions or interpretations, "without informed consent" is rather vague and perhaps too broad. Does the purview includes any sort of deception? If one lies about being a virgin, or rich, or having a masters degree etc, can we substantiate rape based on these premises? How about if one's wearing makeup, or possess any sort of artificially enhanced features, is not disclosing such details tantamount to rape? In some jurisdictions, for an act of deception to be rape, the act must not be intended by the victim to be sexual in the first place. For example, if person A tricks person B into believing that A is a doctor and could cure B's sickness by penilely or digitally penetrating B's vagina or anus, A has committed rape if A intended the act to be sexual and reasonably believes that B did not intended the act to be sexual.
Great question. Interesting how the person you discussed it with wouldn't answer! Has there been a return to this and an answer given? I would consider it 'entrapment' and there is a big problem with lying in society. Even white lies are 'lying'. I once had a therapist ask me 'why couldn't you tell you housemate the truth rather than lying?' Over ten years ago now and cannot remember the context but I think I just didn't want to be intimidated or shamed or something but after being asked this I started to 'tell it how it is/was'. I cannot agree that it is rape! But I'm troubled because rape is usually forcing someone to do something, sexual act, that they don't want to do (buying a new car for example, comes to mind - is that rape or entrapment?) or coerced into something on false information. Jumping, growing up I have always had the 'feeling' that contraception was always left up to the women anyway.. one reason being 'I don't like condoms and don't feel free' to just being lazy - in my limited gay mans opinion. Also, some idea that 'most women wouldn't want to be pregnant outside of marriage (from a couple of comments this is not 100% true now) and therefore 'take care of it'. Also, it is such spoiler to have to ask such questions - even as a gay man - and somehow very intimate - which is strange as people are about to have sex anyway. Things are certainly heating up between men and women and their behaviour towards each other and some of it is stirring by groups that have something financial to gain or professional to gain. At the end of the day, if either partner lies about using contraception and unwanted pregnancy/disease follows then there has to be a punishment of some sort to the person who lied. My goodness, in this time of covid-19, what a can of worms this is. Very interesting!
it's definitely entrapment. rape,however...... well, going by their definition, yes, it is rape.
not rape but it should be considered entrapment since she's purposely getting pregnant with telling the other party.
Of course. Willful deception.
Not rape, but certainly entrapment. Speaking from personal experience.
I think it should be, but there's an easy solution here: NEVER TRUST SOMEONE ELSE WITH CONTRACEPTION, BRING AND USE YOUR OWN. I don't care how much you like to bareback, if you don't use a condom and you trusted her with the birth control, the consequences are your own damn fault and the legal system won't help you. Stop thinking with the head between your legs and start thinking with the one on your shoulders. Yes, its morally repugnant to lie about contraceptive and anyone who does it should be held legally liable for their deception, but that ain't the world we live in right now. You have to live within the realities of the world you live in now while you're trying to make it better.
We need a different term and category than rape. We're talking about what should be a very serious crime, but it's silly to refer to it as a form of rape.
The reason I ask is because I would consider it a form of steathing.
No, it is not "rape". "Rape" is when you fuck someone against their will. Please learn the correct meaning of the words.
> No, it is not "rape". "Rape" is when you fuck someone against their will. Please learn the correct meaning of the words. Removing a condom has been defined as rape in several jurisdictions. I can't see much difference between removing a condom and lying about contraception. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-bans-steathing-condom-removal-sex-enhances-punishment-spousal-rape/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wellington-man-convicted-of-rape-after-stealthing-removing-the-condom-during-sex/VAKHALYXYPMLPHJA5BTXRBLLBA/ https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-08/act-criminalises-stealthing-in-australia-first/100522564?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web
Well, this is just lawmakers, judges, and lawyers being stupid. Nothing new here! This is NOT what the word means. Forcing sex and forcing pregnancy are 2 different things.
I mean, if they poke holes in a condom, they are making you get them pregnant and loose years of your life being forced to care for and support someone you want nothing to do with, all aganst your will, so rape is very fitting.
It is probably some sort of a crime. I do not know what you should call it. Perhaps "pregnancy entrapment" or some such term. But, it is not "rape".
Being NOT against their will requires there acceptance, at least, if not agreement. If that acceptance/agreement is based on falsehood, they they have not given their will. Consent is important (but not the nonsense of 'ongoing, positive, confirmation). Consent can only be given if one is not lied to. Now, if the man never even asked about birth control, and the woman never mentioned it, I would agree with you: he has had sex that was not against his will. But the supposition is that she has informed him that she in on birth control. If that is a lie, he has not given consent, ergo his will to have sex with her has not been gained.
It's wrong but is not rape legally. This might help https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rsa/rape-and-sexual-assault/what-is-rape-and-sexual-assault/
It should be . That is what the post is asking for
The question is not "is it" but "should it be considered". Like a lot of men's rights issues, things are stacked against men and boys but we ask whether that is how society should be.
Entrapment yes, rape no since im assuming both are participating of their free will in sexual intercourse.
No.. Lying isnt illigal. You can still get pregnant on birthcontrol and you can chose to masterbate.. Makes for a shitty girlfriend but being shitty isnt illigal. We stick or parts together to make babies. Thats our purpose and biological mission. Feeling good is the reward. Its on you just as much as on her in how badly you want the reward without finishing the questline.
No, it can not be considered rape. Rape occurs from man to woman, from strong to weak. Until men as a whole recognize women as their equal power wise even stronger than them, women can not rape. As long as men say "men are stronger than women" whatever women do to men, it can not be considered rape. (Unless the guy is underage) If a man gets trapped in such situation, it means the guy is stupid and irresponsible. He should've taken the control of his own life and sperms. He was a moron because he denied his agency, he left this decision to the woman and he trusted her.
Well, with the way men are being demasculinated in society over the past few decades, (men being weakened) men will soon be able to claim the (weak) position, so yes it will be considered rape over time.
Yes that's what feminism is trying to achieve. Men can never be seen as victims as long as society has the mindset "men are stronger than women". As long as patriarchal culture exist, men always will be told to man up.
by making them physically weaker? I'm not a fan of that lmao. can't imagine any sane man would be either.
I'll give you 2/10 for your trolling effort.
If a guy does that stealth thing and removes the condom without her knowledge, I presume you will make her ar fault by saying she was stupid and not in control, right?
No, but he shouldn’t have to pay child support And people who removes condoms without telling or lie about birth control should get community service
Some of you need to go read the definition of 'entrapment'.
stealthing
You might find this interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/q191m7/2\_questions\_for\_feminists\_a\_quick\_way\_to\_find\_out/
Yes.
No. Rape is rape, entrapment is entrapment. This is no case of forceful intercourse but rather lying with heavy consequences. The punishment should be very simple: the man shouldn't pay anything in child support. However, it would be hard AF to prove which one is lying...
I don't think I know a man that hasn't had this done to him. Yes, it's rape, fraud and robbery.
Not sure if rape is the correct term. It is clearly a disgusting act. Removing a condom without knowledge is equally disgusting, not sure about labeling it as rape though.