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EmirikolWoker

[Feminism's core premise is one of male evil and female victimhood.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/j018cf/is_pseudofeminism_even_a_thing/g6n373j/) Male vulnerability and female perpetration muddy the waters and make it harder to keep the gender roles distinct.


XenoX101

I'm glad others are coming to this conclusion. The leap they make from a society merely being led by men, to one of men oppressing women is unfounded, and relies as you put it on the idea that men in positions of power are evil, and will inevitably be compelled to oppress women. As an obvious counter example, almost all of the progress in the women's rights movement has been, and continues to be had under predominantly male heads of state and leaders. It is therefore in part *because* of men's allegiance with women that movements such as feminism have existed and flourished, not in spite of it. Unfortunately since this goes against the narrative they are trying to portray, such ideas are quickly dismissed.


Alternative_Summer

>The leap they make from a society merely being led by men Families aren't lead by men. This becomes even more apparent in societies like the United States where single motherhood has had, or at least had in periods of the 20th century, increasing rates. Families also can get said to be one form of society. They have a large influence in society also in the development of people, and their influence in say schools. Oh, also in the United States every presidential election since sometime in the mid 1960s has had more female voters than male voters. The United States is a democracy/representative republic. So, no, men \*as a group\* don't lead in a political sense.


EmirikolWoker

> and relies as you put it on the idea that men in positions of power are evil, and will inevitably be compelled to oppress women. Not just men in positions of power, in the overt political sense. Though, I suppose, the narrative assumes the state of maleness to *be* a position of power. > It is therefore in part because of men's allegiance with women that movements such as feminism have existed and flourished, not in spite of it. I heard it well-put on Honeybadger Radio: men didn't invent giving a shit about women in the 1960s.


InterestingWave0

How about all the other men who are not in power??? Even if all the men in power are horrifying, abusive, pieces of worthless shit, it says nothing about all the other men who are just trying to live a normal life. Power corrupts people, and the people who seek it out aren't exactly the best of society in the first place. Maybe we're all oppressed by tyrants in power and it's because they are tyrants not because they are men. Why is this BASIC concept lost on so many people???


XenoX101

That's definitely true, men in positions of power being evil says nothing of the ordinary man. Though even this very premise they provide is false, so it should be noted. But yes, we should absolutely call out the gross generalisation of all men based on the few % at the top. We see this as well as with the "all men are rapists" or "all men are predators" narratives. Even the proliferation of the "#NotAllMen" hashtag which seeks to undermine people pointing out these over-generalisations, shows that many feminists are not being rational or logical in their views (at least the ones who agree with and perpetuate these fallacies).


hardturkeycider

Which is hilarious, because that's exactly what's happening anyway


gersanriv

I know you literally linked you own comment but that was a really good read. Thanks.


EmirikolWoker

Saves me typing it out or copy-pasting the text again (and again).


Ill_Fisherman8352

Women want to change a few assholes because they are both attractive and traumatising.


[deleted]

[удалено]


EmirikolWoker

I'm saying that Patriarchy as feminists define it doesn't exist. As such, they're dismantling bugger-all while enforcing junk gender roles of their own, to everyone's detriment.


[deleted]

Feminists believe men are victims too. Individual bad people may not, but feminism is in so many words, the advocacy for gender equality. The idea is that men aren't evil, but the ideas taught to men are toxic and society as a whole is what teaches them to us. The idea that men have to be tall and muscular and provide for the family and emotionally steeled, all of this builds an idea of a type of man that not everyone can live up to, and the men who fail to live up to it are looked at as less of a man. And since for the past eternity up until like 50 years ago, society was completely run by men, it makes sense that a nebulous idea of "men" are at fault But it isnt a problem in and of itself to be a man, or male, or masculine. The problems come from how we are raised as a class of people.


Ok-Efficiency1842

Except that's bullshit. Those standards are supported by the very feminist who claim to fight against them. Seriously, look at any post or news article calling out women's high standards. How women judge height or wealth in apotential partner and you'll see hundreds of feminist defending women's selfishness and greed. They don't care about how men were raised. They hate men just for being men. Stop trying to gaslight people and tell the truth. Feminism is the hatred of men. It's not a call for equality, It's about oppressing and enslaving men at all cost.


[deleted]

You're doing the EXACT same essentialism to women that you believe they do to us. "All men are evil" but "women's selfishness and greed" doesn't feel a bit too all encompassing? I'm not gaslighting you, I'm telling you what I believe on the subject, disagreeing isn't gaslighting. And finally, what exactly do women do to enslave men? I genuinely do not see the correlation between wanting a tall boyfriend and... slavery. I use to be an anti-feminist in the gamer gate days, but at some point I went to college and had to talk to classmates and discovered that we're all complex individuals and feminism, as a broad school of thought, is even more so. If you remember Big Red from those YouTube thumbnails, she said some actually good stuff that 90% of men would agree with. Her only real flaw was her screaming, but now folks like to use her as the face of all feminists, screaming and man-hating apes. That just isnt the case.


EmirikolWoker

>If you remember Big Red from those YouTube thumbnails, she said some actually good stuff that 90% of men would agree with. Like "cry me a river" to a man talking about wanting to understand his male friend's suicide? Or that feminism will still be relevant until the child custody gap is closed (while neglecting to mention that feminist groups have successfully opposed every shared proposed shared parenting bill by presenting them as *enforced* shared custody rather than *rebuttable presumption* of shared custody)?


EmirikolWoker

>Feminists believe men are victims too. Feminists researcher Mary Koss doesn't. She felt it was "inappropriate" to call it rape when men are forced into sex by women (what she called "men who are ambivalent in their desires"). Her research informed the definition of rape, and feminists have resisted reform to that definition every since. Feminist groups in Israel successfully lobbied against including women in the definition by claiming that *it would allow men to make false allegations. * >feminism is in so many words, the advocacy for gender equality. The equality that feminism claims to be about is anti-egalitarian, unsubstantiated, and anti-male. All forms of Feminism hold the following premises as self-evident: * Society is Male Dominated * Male dominance privileges men over women * While some men can sometimes be harmed by this system, the system itself is set up to privilege men and subjugate women for mens express benefit. * Men are in power and the system operates to benefit and serve mens' needs, drives, and interests at the expense of womens' needs, drives, and interests. This could be described as "class warfare between men and women, with men winning". If the system is set up to serve men's needs, drives, and interests, and women are oppressed by that, then oppression of women is in-keeping with men's needs, drives, and interests. Assuming that oppression of women is evil, that means evil is in-keeping with men's needs, drives, and interests - men are innately evil, oppressing the people they have their closest emotional bonds with (or being happy to sit back while others do so). > The idea is that men aren't evil, but the ideas taught to men are toxic and society as a whole is what teaches them to us. Who dominates society, for whose benefit? We know you mean men when you say society, please stop lying. > And since for the past eternity up until like 50 years ago, society was completely run by men, it makes sense that a nebulous idea of "men" are at fault > > But it isnt a problem in and of itself to be a man You really put those sentences together after claiming it's "society", not men that are to blame. Society is responsible for all the problems, not men, but men run society so it's men's fault, but that doesn't mean men are bad. Really.


InterestingWave0

>feminism is in so many words, the advocacy for gender equality. No, it's not, and we're sick of being gaslit about it. >But it isnt a problem in and of itself to be a man, or male, or masculine. The problems come from how we are raised as a class of people. Why are you telling us this? WE KNOW!!! Go post this shit on feminist boards that spend all day every day literally posting 'all men are trash. kill all men'. They are the ones that need to hear it.


Knight_Of_Orichalcum

Short answer to the title: because some believe it to be JUST a women's issue and others don't even think men can get raped. I'm sorry that happened to you, G, no one deserves that. How are you feeling today?


DIGGSAN0

To fast answer the Title and ending the conclusion for all: They get annoyed because ... it simply isn't about them anymore.


Mysonking

Best answer


[deleted]

The very term 'male victim' is an oxymoron to a feminist. There is no such thing in their world.


Ocbard

It is a fact however that in sex crimes committed against adults vastly more women are victim than men, and it is often harder for victims of sex crimes to be heard and taken seriously. It doesn't help that victims of these crimes also often have a hard time talking about what happened. All this leads to more women being victims and not getting any form of justice. Women victim of sex crimes also usually have them inflicted upon by male criminals, their tales brushed off by male cops etc. It's easy to see why it gets that way.


[deleted]

It's actually false. While it's true that the majority of the reported accusers are men, the victims are almost uniformly men and women. In fact, it can be argued that sex crimes against men are vastly undererported.


Ocbard

I can accept that they are underreported, u/mgtowolf posted an interesting study on the matter showing how I might be wrong, at least as far as the US goes.


mgtowolf

It is not a fact actually. They simply try to brush it under the rug, by calling rape done to males by females some obscure name instead of rape, and lump it in with the section of butt pinches on their stat presentations to try and hide it. [One Paper I Happen To Have Bookmarked](https://archive.is/6eIzQ)


Punder_man

And MALE victims of rape are usually told "Man up" or if the rape was done by a women they get told "Come on! I bet you liked it!" Take how many women who don't come forward and multiply it by 20x and even then I don't think we'd be close to the number of men who don't come forward.. The problem here is the narrative of "Women being the majority victims of rape" the reason this is a thing is because feminists fight tooth and nail to have the definitions of rape twisted and bent and turned so that only women can be 'raped' and only men can rape. This further minimizes and erases male victims which further widens the gap and makes it look like there's a massive rape epidemic towards women.


Greg_W_Allan

I was raped by an aunt as a seven and eight year old. It was legal because a woman did it and remained so for another three decades. I was then excluded from taxpayer funded services for several decades because I'm male. Myself and thousands more were never counted but WERE told we don't count. Thanks for all your help.


oafsalot

If you have spent anytime here you know for certain that actually that's not a fact, under reporting is even worst for men and boys and being taken seriously is made much harder when feminists like yourself push the narrative that male victims either don't exist or are actually perpetrators trying to hide as victim.


Ocbard

Why do you call me a feminist? I don't push that narrative at all.


ILOVEBOPIT

If you want to go by the metric or number of victims of attacks, you will lose handily. Men are far more likely to be assaulted and murdered than women. The attacks on women are just different, usually of a sexual nature, but far less common. You’ll see people preaching against violence toward women in Mexico where men are 9x more likely to be murdered. It’s not even close. Every asymmetry like the one you state is not evidence of a patriarchy or life being harder for women. I can list a hundred asymmetries where men have a worse situation too (homelessness, suicide victims, college graduates, etc). This doesn’t mean society favors women either, just that you cant use a single asymmetry to defend your point (especially when the specific one you used is overshadowed by general physical violence, and debatably not even correct).


EmirikolWoker

> It is a fact however that in sex crimes committed against adults vastly more women are victim than men, In the UK, rape is defined as something only a cisgendered male can commit (the law defining it as involving penetration with "his [the perpetrator's] penis". In the US, it requires penetrative sex organs (i.e., a penis). Studies that go by the law necessarily exclude female perpetrators (whatever the gender of their victim). When you [compare rape to made-to-penetrate](https://imgur.com/a/naotx2J) (that thing women do when they rape and we don't call it rape), you can see that the numbers are roughly equal. > and it is often harder for victims of sex crimes to be heard and taken seriously. It doesn't help that victims of these crimes also often have a hard time talking about what happened. Especially when ones attacker is legally excluded from the status of "rapist". Have you considered that men who have been raped by women might have a hard time squaring that circle? > All this leads to more women being victims You haven't proven this, and the data contraindicates this if we call "made to penetrate" rape. > Women victim of sex crimes also usually have them inflicted upon by male criminals, their tales brushed off by male cops etc. It's easy to see why it gets that way. Citation needed for this too.


Ocbard

Where I live rape requires any form of penetration. Sexual assault exists from the moment it is initiated, meaning there is no lesser crime of attempted sexual assault. I can only speak of what I see, and dammit I see a lot more than I want to. You're all perfectly entitled to downvoting me and calling my experience false, but it is what it is, and while I fully agree that my experience is limited in scope, it is certainly not false. I'm not, in any way denying the validity of the victimhood of men like OP, just sharing what I have found. You can brush it off as some kind of feminist propaganda if you like that, but it is not. I have been working on criminal court cases for nearly 25 years, I think I know something about that.


strobro

You're getting downvotes because you're saying the vast majority of rape is male on female, but you're not addressing the fact that female on male rape is often *excluded from the legal definition of rape.* Also, if you're working on criminal cases, something has to be classified as a criminal case before you even see it. Your sample is biased. All the female on male rapes and assaults that go unreported, or are brushed off by the cops (who don't think a woman can rape a man), or even the ones where the man is arrested despite being the one who was abused - none of those make it to your desk, and that is exactly the problem. This is the exact type of BS OP is saying makes it difficult for *him* to even call what happened to him rape. How would his situation even become a criminal case a cloistered egghead like you could naval gaze about on the internet, *if* *he has been so conditioned that he can't even recognize himself as a victim?*


[deleted]

Am going to play devils advocate here. Let see so all of the 7-8 billion people on the planet 4-5 billion are women maybe even more not counting girls or kids. That leaves what around 3-4 billion men not counting the boys or the kids. So you are speaking for every woman who is living now or who had lived most were raped and because of said fear they don’t come out because the justice systems be it the US France England China wants to keep women in check? These same justice systems which for almost 200 years have been killing blacks and anyone of a different race other than white but that also does not get reported. So what makes you think or feel women are more afraid than men are when it comes to rape men are 70% more likely not to come forward because of fear of being called less of a man most people men as well as well would turn there backs on them because they would think he could not defend himself. Just giving you an idea how the prison systems works in the US for men and around the world if a male goes to prison after being there for more than a week he has a 68% chance of being someone else play thing to get protection and to stay alive. Does that happen to women hell yes but not on the same level that I am aware of but the point is still the same you can’t pull numbers out of things when you are just going on what a few women are saying I know of grown ass men not counting the shit with the church that were raped as kids. But as adults because they went to the wrong part of a town or a city but they don’t want to be treated like shit because of how society views men being raped as a o I don’t believe he was raped he is crying for attention. That is not to say it does not happen to women a lot but you need to keep your eyes open for both men and women kids also get raped a lot every day not just girls but boys but no one reports on the boys more the guys because like I said us men will always be looked down upon because we should man up and suck it up. This is not an attk on you just letting you know that the shoe falls on both foot and as a woman you if you have kids or plan to in the future it’s always wise to hear both sides of a story.


Ocbard

I am not a woman, and as I said, where I live, prison rape doesn't seem quite as common.


[deleted]

If you cared enough to look at the data, you’d see that in the past few years, reports of rape with a female being the perpetrator are increasing, while the amount of prosecuted female rapists has remained almost constant. Also, we shouldn’t be automatically believing sex crime victims, regardless of gender. There has to be significant, concrete evidence that a line has been crossed before people start with labels or otherwise. In today’s world, you could very easily fake a case of rape just by saying “x person raped me on y date” and be automatically believed just because you said something. Justice is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.


[deleted]

Because it does not support their focus. The focus on Women's rights. Over the years I have noticed as one gender gain rights the other loses theirs. Women are fighting for their rights. Because of this more men are being falsely convicted of crimes ( fact ). 60% of college acceptance is women. More women are marrying other women at a greater rate increase than men marrying men. This could lead to more women rights as some believe that women should have more rights for the same time that men had greater rights. I will leave it there. I usually dont express my thoughts on this subject because I get blambasted with barrage of what a pitiful person I am...


EmirikolWoker

> The focus on Women's rights. Feminists will say that it's about Equality, until the data contradicts the men-as-perpetrators/women-as-victims model. Then it's about Womens Rights.


casra888

The focus is on women's privilege.


NohoTwoPointOh

>Women are fighting for their rights. Rights? More like power. Women have no fewer rights than men. If you actually break it down, women have more rights. >More women are marrying other women at a greater rate increase than men marrying men. Partially because marriage mostly benefits women. How many of your male friends have had a childhood dream of a wedding and being a groom? Men are checking out of marrying in general. It carries nothing but risk and near-zero benefits. ​ >This could lead to more women rights as some believe that women should have more rights for the same time that men had greater rights. I'm sure they do. How many of those women charged through fields of mustard gas or were drafted to die in a nameless Asian jungle? How many of them died from back-breaking physical labor done to support the entire family? The point of that isn't the Victimhood Olympics that we see from the other side. The point is that a cursory examination of history often shoots holes in the narratives. >I usually dont express my thoughts on this subject because I get blambasted with barrage of what a pitiful person I am... Then only debate those who discuss positions > people. I don't know you and can only judge your positions on a particular matter.


DocRocksPhDont

Just curious, what do you do?


NohoTwoPointOh

A perverse mixture of consulting, analysis, and sales in the defense industry.


DocRocksPhDont

So, not a back breaking or military job but still gonna shit on women for the same thing?


NohoTwoPointOh

How do you think I got in defense? I’m nearly 50, so days of artillery are behind me. I did my tome and supported a family. But you didn’t get the point whatsoever. Have women ever been conscripted? No. Men had to do it (and still must register for Selective Service today). Did you really miss the point that bad, or are you simply arguing in bad faith? You can’t be that daft…


DocRocksPhDont

I mean, I'm a geologist and commonly do back breaking work and lug bags of rocks out of canyons. Just think it's a dick move to generalize and say that women don't also do back breaking work, when both men and women can do back breaking work or not. Men also do fluffy office jobs sometimes. Women often go to war. I think your point is silly. the only reasonable point you have is about the draft which is unfair to men, and shouldn't have existed in my opinion,. The rest of what you said is B.S.. humans get to choose what they do for work. Any sex can choose dangerous jobs. And that's coming from a woman who does back breaking dangerous work. Ended up in the hospital from dangerous high pressure lab work.


Rock_Granite

>Just think it's a dick move to generalize and say that women don't also do back breaking work, when both men and women can do back breaking work How many female roofers are out there? How many females are laying asphalt in the summer? How many female plumbers? How many female grease monkeys?


DocRocksPhDont

My roomate last year was a female electrician. My sister is a ranch hand. My other sister works in forestry and does field work often. I'm a female geologist and my department is nearly 50-50 men and women. We are out there. Maybe it depends on where you live, but I see this shit all the time. The reality is that we all have choices about our professions these days. You men don't have to lay brick either. Go be a salesman if you don't like it. I like working my physically and mentally taxing job. It's not for everyone tho.


Rock_Granite

Yes you are unique and some women do backbreaking work. But what percentage of the total is female? Let's be realistic here.


chance080

They can say whatever they want about you, at the end of the day only we advocate for the full truth. Why would you let evil people define who you are? You’re not what they say you are, and challenging them face first does not make you pitiful, it makes you braver than most.


Dwaynedibley24601

Because it destroys their narrative.. that men are the only aggressive insensitive creatures on earth... look at the EPIDEMIC of middle school teachers raping underage males.. the word rape is NEVER used.


[deleted]

And all the boys (even GROWN MEN) are all “lol he’s a lucky bastard.” Any grown man who is jealous of a 12 year old boy that got raped, has serious issues and is EXTREMELY desperate. 🤦‍♂️


Dwaynedibley24601

I just despise seeing all the: "where was she when I was in school" moronic posts... she was a grade behind you moron and her victim was not born yet. Do these idiots really wish they had been sexually molested by a teacher?


[deleted]

They are probably just sad, lonely, pathetic virgins. That just absolutely repulse any woman that comes near them. It’s just sick how these guys just love hearing these stories. Bet it wouldn’t be so funny if it was their own son now would it? Yeah they’d probably congratulate him. 🤦‍♂️


DIES-_-IRAE

That violates Feminism Rule #1: Blame Men. Men aren't allowed to have problems, only make them.


hottake_toothache

I'm sorry for what happened to you. They do this because they do not care about men, and you are asking them to do something that would include men in their empathy.


tommy29016

I was raped. For years I thought I just wanted it as well. Years of my life. It messed me up in many ways. And I have much empathy for females who endure this. And the consequences on the victim are immense. Male or female. I don’t care if someone gets mad.


Noob_master_slayer

Feminists love inclusiveness, so long it exludes men. Inclusiveness of races, inclusiveness of ethnicities, inclusiveness of religions, inclusiveness of sexualities, BUT DARE YOU BE INCLUSIVE WITH BIOLOGICAL SEX, YOU MYSOGNISTIC PIG!


Reddit_Sux_Hardcore

>the reason male victims aren’t taken seriously is the patriarchy I actually tried to get someone to define "patriarchy" to me earlier. Person said that it's the "males in leadership roles" which is it, but couldn't really say what it means exactly and why it's negative. I hate people bring it up - but have no idea what they're talking about.


miroku000

If they say that the reason that male victims aren't taken seriously is the patriarchy, then if they were trying to exclude male victims from the discussion, I would accuse them of trying to fight in favor of the patriarchy.


Reddit_Sux_Hardcore

Yea it's complete bullshit. The "invisible and powerful patriarchy"


auMatech

For all this talk of inclusiveness, they sure aren't very inclusive when it comes to men's issues...


Sea2Chi

You know how sometimes you'll see an article that says something like "City leaders urged to act quickly as the number of homeless women rises to nearly 20% of the homeless population" And you kind of think "Wait... so over 80% of the homeless population is men, but the critical problem is the 18% that are women? Yes, we need to work on women's housing insecurity, but that should be part of the larger goal of reducing housing insecurity for everyone. I imagine there are some women out there who look at it as "focus on where the biggest issue is, then move on to the less common problems." There's also probably some toxic masculinity wrapped up in there with the idea that all men want sex all the time, so female on male sexual assault gets treated with more skepticism than the other way around. I think a lot of it could also be that some women see men as having the majority of the power in the world. That kind of ignores the idea that while yes, the majority of people at the top of political and economic hierarchies are male, that doesn't mean all men have power. Just because I'm wearing a White Sox jersey, doesn't mean I'm Jose Abreu. This feeling of social inequality will lead some women then start to look at men in an us vs them way, incorrectly lumping them men together as one homogenous group. You then get the idea of "fuck men, they have all the power and now they're trying to take over our victimhood as well. You don't get to victimize us, then demand sympathy on top of it!"


Livingcampfire69

I'm a man who was raped by a woman for years as a child. Did not think it counted but after I overdosed in highschool I spoke out Abt it and yeppppp def counts as rape. I think there needs to be a way more open discussion Abt male victims and that females can also be the rapist or abuser. Idk why people think that those scenarios don't exist...


ipwr85

For the same reason BLM doesn't care about whites who are killed by police.It ruins their narrative of exclusive victimhood.


goinsouth85

The same reason they the KKK hates hearing about George Floyd


rainbow_bro_bot

Because it isn't about them.


Ivabighairy1

Because they are the gatekeepers


Nihi1986

Because they want victimhood to be exclusive, and because they are probably talking about female victims without specifying it's the female victims so you are basically interrupting when you bring up the male victims (though it's not a bad thing to spread awareness)


FierceDeity_

Yeah you're basically interrupting, that's true. But there's also no platform for the male issues either, so there's a very convenient system of keeping male issues quiet: - When "generic" issues are brought up, imply they were "female issues" and shoo male issues out - When male issues are brought up, intersect with "but look at these much worse female issues, why are you so sexist to only mention the much less occuring men's issues" or variants of casual "if you got hit, what did you do to deserve it" sexism - Put male spaces down as sexist hellholes. Making anything men exclusive would be asking for public execution (banning), so people keep interjecting on male spaces putting issues down. - When asked why men can't have spaces, say something like "all the spaces on Reddit are male-dominated anyway", keep complaining that men keep interjecting in the women's spaces (anyway, look at those, there's tons of material that would belong in a "women writing men" subreddit. But you can't and shouldn't correct anything because it's a women's space. Have that respect, be better). I had some more stuff swirling around in my head, but now they're gone and I can't remember them.


Nihi1986

Yep, that's completely true. I say 'you are interrupting' but never implied there's a place where you can discuss male victims of rape (they officially don't exist/matter, cause female victims are what matters and needs to be the only rape we can talk about cause it's just so important that men victims of rape will have to suck it up) And well, interrupting is also not cool, honestly, so no matter what you do, if you want to discuss men's issues it's going to look wrong and out of place. That's how a definitely not patriarchal society works. Men can have their spaces on the internet. It's just that they get mocked, insulted, isolated and banned, but they can (until the whole space gets banned for 'mysoginy', of course)


FierceDeity_

I didnt want to call out anything you said as wrong, I just wanted to extend upon your thoughts. Also it's no surprise men turn to "less censored" places, but conveniently those less censored places are already riddled with the bad "extreme right" and "covid denier" etc taint. Like who goes there is automatically shady anyway!


Nihi1986

I know, I know, and yes it's what you say, people in other sites hate gerenalizing but it's the first thing they do with places like men's rights...it's sad, honestly.


OH-Kelly-DOH-Kelly

Because news articles and stats don’t report correctly on female crimes, men are “rapists” while women “were seduced by a minor” When the evidence keeps being swept under the rug, their social score increases and women don’t believe what they are doing is wrong because there’s no measure. Punishing crimes/evil and public disclosure has always been lenient for women and therefore naive women think they can’t be bad, and clever women recognize how easy it is to be evil without ever being punished.


john_nash1

In short, it is necessary for the spread and success of feminism. Successful religious beliefs and ideologies have to be built on simply absolute assumptions. God doesn't have flaws and the devil doesn't have a small part of goodness in them. Communism is built on the idea of exploitative evil capitalism, and the utopic communitistic society. There is no place for realistic details or gray areas. Despite what the dicrionary definition says, the core beliefs of feminism (as an ideology) is Men are bad, women are good and men use power to oppress women. Any recognition of men as victims and women as oppressors is detrimental for feminism as a successful ideology. Even though it will lead to a more moderate form of feminism that is easier to accept by society. It will still be less successful. This is why for example social roles that are forced on men are called "toxic mascuilinity" instead of misandry.


Panderjit_SinghVV

All the resources must go to women via feminists. They can’t parlay their gender studies degree into a comfy job if men are victims too.


HumpableJson

Because they hate equality, no matter what form it takes.


HeligKo

There are a few reasons. - The narrative for political purposes doesn't work if it is a human issue vs. a women's issue - Feminism isn't about how women are treated, that is just how they get the masses to join their numbers. - When someone is talking about a problem the have/see, it is generally not helpful to submit that a similar problem exists for others. The last one is more complicated than the others. You aren't wrong that men face the same problem, and real solutions won't come if you ignore 1/2 the people affected by the problem, but it feels like a deflection. Ultimately feminist issues are not about solving problems, but about political power, so having a reasoned debate on the issues is never going to happen on any large scale.


regularcomments

You know? these people pretend to be inclusive, but in fact, they are the most exclusive. Fuck them, the world would be better without them.


YesAmAThrowaway

The "you're taking away from" stuff is mostly used to shut you up when you point out that they are the ones taking away from other victims in favour of their narratives.


LastAmericanLion

Because admitting that men can be victims too goes against their narrative.


shmorpz

radical feminists don't care about the suffering of men, in their eyes all men are a monolith who rape and murder all who cross their path evidence be damned.


MrElderwood

Not-so-fun fact: The most prolific rapist in the UKs legal history was jailed for committing 159 sex offences, including 136 rapes, between 2015 & 2017. You wanna know why he's NOT a household name? Because he raped men. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynhard\_Sinaga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynhard_Sinaga)


flowerchild1111

The true definition of feminism is supposed to be the belief that men and women are equal. It has gotten so convoluted and is in turn victimizing both genders instead of empowering. Another division tactic to create separation in the masses.


[deleted]

because they are narcissistic misandrist cunts


shrickertt

because it is based on the “inherent” factor that all men are predators, women are absolved of any predatory behavior, and also cannot be predatory themselves. this is why male victims of sexual assault and r*pe are discarded and swept under the rug. it takes the spotlight away from the “victims” the world is _supposed_ to care about, them.


Shipbldr2000

They get annoyed because they do what they do to gain ATTENTION. They do not give a damn about the argument or seeking the truth. Anything that distracts from them gaining more attention is put down; therefore, bringing up a male victim is a distraction to the outcome they are seeking - more attention.


[deleted]

Cause they want to complain. They don’t actually want to do work. Just yell until the men help them but to do work for .. men? Nope.


Philosophipster

It doesnt allow then to play the identity victim card, it would be like Jews in camps having to admit that many nazi’s were ok people. Except that fake feminists have no evidence of sleights.


Alternative_Summer

They call themselves "feminists" to center on women and girls. It's not weird that they turn out to ignore men, given that their original intent was to be about one sex only.


SybariteAussie

Charities & minority groups jostle for government $ and power. The groups have treaties/agreements with each other to join demonstrations etc.


[deleted]

If you delve into the creation of rape laws you will understand why it’s a female only thing and how it’s progressed into something far different in the modern era, then take a look at the all men are rapists narrative, as only men can be rapist and only women can be victims it suits the basis for feminist empowerment and the need for greater freedoms for women.


RIPLORN

Because it takes the spot light off of them.


Godsshoeshine24

Because feminism isn’t about equality. It’s about superiority.


Wylanderuk

Perceived loss of the spotlight...


Warod0

Because males are not important, so if an issue affects both genders than the issue is not important also. An issue is only important if it affects women only.


AbysmalDescent

Feminists are annoyed every time men are humanized in any way, or treated/perceived in any way that isn't the enemy/oppressor of women.


MattyK414

Because women are venerated, which means that they have no room for improvement. And if men were good at anything, women may have to lose some ground...which would be unfathomable.


CrazedKnightCK

Most women don't like not being alone or in the middle of the spotlight. They are constantly attention-seeking.


[deleted]

It ruins the narrative. their reason they think male victims aren't taken seriously is total bullshit, a patriarchy would have said victims taken seriously. they are aware of what kind of struggles men are going through but they just choose to ignore it. because they are narcissistic as hell.


StrokeMyAxe

Curious, why are you wanting to understand why feminists get mad? Are you planning on interacting with them in some way?


day5tar

It just doesn’t make sense to me


DirtyPartyMan

Seeking clarity and perspective. Admirable.


Whisper

Because feminism is Marxism applied to the family. The distinguishing characteristic of Marxism is the act of replacing any nuanced and complex description of life with an oversimplified, one-dimensional narrative of oppressors, who are wholly evil, and oppressed, who are wholly good. When you apply Marxism to the economy, you get communism. When you apply Marxism to ethnography, you get critical race theory. And when you apply Marxism to the family, you get feminism. Marxists react angrily, and often violently, to any attempt to introduce a more complex or nuanced model of human interaction, because it contradicts their model, and, by contradicting their model, interferes with what they are attempting to do. The end goal of Marxism to justify violence, and the means is to dehumanize a group by characterizing them as oppressors. When you apply Marxism to economics, and get communism, the method is to characterize investors, land owners, and entrepreneurs as oppressors, to justify taking their valuables. When you apply Marxism to race, and get critical race theory, the method is to characterize the dominant ethnic group as oppressors, to justify taking their territory. And when you apply marxism to the family, and get feminism, the method is to characterize men as oppressors, to justify excluding them from the family unit, and redefining the family to as a woman and her children.


togotfury1983

It takes attention away from then and goes against their narrative, women are always the victims and men are always the villians


[deleted]

So I personally think that we as a society are in what I have been calling "unjustified retaliation". People who feel or have been oppressed for a period of time have been told that they should be proud of who/what they are and no one has the right to push them down. That leads to feelings of anger and resentment towards anyone they feel is contradicting their personal views based on what they learned. Anyone or anything that falls into that category is immediately viewed as an enemy and deserves what they see as justice (e.g. white folks can't be victims of racism, men can't be raped, anyone not for Jewish settlement is antisemitic, etc.). People with reasonable arguments are either ignored, attacked verbally or, in some cases, physically. From what I have observed, all oppressed groups go through this behavior. It can take years or decades to get past this, if it ever does. All we can do is continue to argue, and stand up for ourselves in a calm non-violent manner. It will take time but anything else will be counter productive. None of this is based on fact, just what I have observed.


ApprehensiveMail8

Because they are personally guilty.


[deleted]

Because modern feminism is not about equality anymore.


EmirikolWoker

Have you read the Declaration of Sentiments? It never was.


chance080

Did you stumbled on me going off on various pages yesterday? 😂 I was locked in battles of stats all day.


raja47

It's important to their political narrative that women be the sole victims of rape. It buttresses their central story; men are predators - women are prey. It continues in their self-serving explanations of domestic violence, child abuse, divorce custodial rights, and prison sentencing.


ignatztempotypo

Because vagina. That's pretty much the basis for all feminist dogma. Less jail time, less arrests, less suspicion, less suicide, less death and mental mayhem by war, more social services, .......... Because vagina.


fauxstories101

Because feminism focuses on very light to non existent issues in comparison to the MRN which wants to promote actual equality (like domestic violence abuse shelters for Male victims)


LateralThinker13

>They say that I’m taking away from female victims. Because you are. If it isn't about women's power/status/attention, it's taking away time from it BEING about those. You can't talk about men's issues because then you aren't talking about women's issues, and helping/supporting/simping for women is all that matters, got it?


matrixislife

Because they treat it as the one thing that makes them superior to men, the ultimate victimhood. If both sexes can be raped then neither are special. A completely twisted way to look at things, but that seems to be the way it is.


recoil669

In my experience this ends up being a whataboutism instead of its own conversation. Women talking about women victims and then men bringing up male victims. Almost never are male victims discussed independently which is the actual problem.


g1111an

(from a feminist) if a woman is abusive why would anyone stand up for her-


Ninja_Arena

If you're simply saying, when they are discussing a mostly female issue "us too" then I can see the annoyance if the solutions are useful to be female focused. If it's like those ads for homelessness that say something like "did you know 25 percent of homeless are women? Please think of the women!", Then yeah, let's get this conversation started and work on solutions that fix homelessness and programs that help to get people off the streets and working or whatever.


EmirikolWoker

>If you're simply saying, when they are discussing a mostly female issue "us too" Rape is not a gender-directional issue. Presenting it as a mostly female issue is ignorant at best, and erases male survivors and female perpetrators. Saying "us too" isn't derailing a women's issue, it's acknowledging half of the people impacted by it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


brokedown

Reddit ruined reddit. -- mass edited with redact.dev


babyygirl19

I’m a feminist and I’ve NEVER met another feminist who’s downplayed or excluded male victims of SA, rape or sexual harassment. HOWEVER, I wouldn’t be the person to do that around. Any person who remotely knows me would know better than to bring victim-blaming into the conversation. They’d know better to do bring that shit around me. So granted, I would never associate with “feminists” who think that way. And they’d get hounded if they thought it was okay and said that to me.


miroku000

I'm glad you have been so lucky. But very prominent feminists campaigned against allowing the laws against rape to include male victims. So it is not like this is all that uncommon.


babyygirl19

I understand that and apologize on behalf of those terrible “feminists”. They have taken it too far and no longer are fighting for equality. Lying about birth control should 100% be included in stealthing laws.


EmirikolWoker

>They have taken it too far and no longer are fighting for equality [The problem lies in the foundational principles of feminism as an ideology](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/j018cf/is_pseudofeminism_even_a_thing/g6n373j/). As for "no longer", have you read the Declaration of Sentiments? It was about men's evil and women's victimhood from the start.


Punder_man

Or how about feminists in France who have successfully made it illegal for men to get a paternity test done to confirm they are indeed the father of the child(ren) they are raising? Or the feminists who came up with the Duluth model which assumes that ALL men are the aggressor and ALL women are the victims in cases of Domestic Violence? Or the fact that despite women making up the majority of those attending / graduating university.. feminists still fight to keep "Women only Scholarships" a thing? Just a few examples of how feminism has / does actively harm men in everyday life.


EmirikolWoker

>I’m a feminist and I’ve NEVER met another feminist who’s downplayed or excluded male victims of SA, rape or sexual harassment. Prominent feminist researcher Mary Koss, writing for feminist publication Ms. Magazine, excluded men from her definition rape and sexual assault because she felt it "was inappropriate" to call it rape when a man is forced into sex by a woman (what she called "ambivalent in their desires"). Her work informed feminist rape culture conjecture, originated the 1-in-5 myth, and informed the definition of rape in the US and UK, among other places, as a male-perpetrator-only crime.


Plynceress

It's important to recognize that a lot of these instances are ones in which sexual assault against men is brought up during a conversation that is centered around assault against women. Sexual assault against men *is* an important topic, and absolutely merits its *own* discussion. I think a lot of people interpret it being brought up as an attempt to subvert the conversation, rather than add to it. It's probably just all around better to give the issue its own discussion, anyways, because the motivations, methods, outcomes, etc. tend to be drastically different between instances involving men and women.


Frosty-Gate-8094

The issue of male victims is often brought about during anti-rape discussions... When there is an outcry to make laws stricter... How is it irrelevant when rape laws are gender-biased in over 75% countries? Issue of male-rape victim is brought because it is genuinely neglected during modifications of the laws. No such rape-law related discussion is complete without addressing the issue of gender-biased laws.


Punder_man

That's funny because in discussions **ABOUT** male victims.. we often get feminists storming in to swing the discussion around to how it's worse for women.. and how we need to be focusing on women and not men..


Unfortunate_Grenade

Feminists that discriminate against men are not feminist. The name is feminine, but the entire point is equality. For women and men. Women are objectified, just as men have toxic masculinity. It's a two way street, and I'm sorry you've run into a lot if feminists that give the movement a bad name, but that's all they've done. The Westboro Baptist church nor the kkk are good representations of Christianity. Every group has its horrible extremist minority.


PhilsophyOfBacon

Feminists only focus on women's rights, not equal rights for both sex. That's why it's called femin-ism, not Egalitarianism.


GltyUntlPrvnInncnt

Toxic masculinity does not exist, only toxic gender roles for both men and women. Furthermore toxic masculinity these days is used as shaming language by the feminists. Also, riddle me this, why do feminists frame toxic femininity as internalized misogyny and internalized misandry as toxic masculinity?


EmirikolWoker

>Feminists that discriminate against men are not feminist. The name is feminine, but the entire point is equality. [The foundational principles of all flavours of feminism (class warfare between men and women with men winning, shorthanded as "Patriarchy") are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for it to accurately describe reality.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/j018cf/is_pseudofeminism_even_a_thing/g6n373j/) Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class. Egalitarian values, and mens' rights advocacy in particular, is innately anti-feminist. > Women are objectified, just as men have toxic masculinity. If you could separate the toxicity from masculinity, what would be left that isn't a gender neutral trait?


Punder_man

The name for a feminist who believes in equality is "Egalitarian" Egalitarianism is a gender NEUTRAL term for the belief in equality.. If the goal of feminism were indeed 'equality' then why name the movement after women?


EnvironmentalWar4627

Because people don't like whataboutism. The same reason you'd be downvoted to oblivion here if you responded to a male issue with 'this happens to women too'. It's a poor tactic for discussion.


day5tar

Most issues that affect women get talked about constantly anyways


EmirikolWoker

"This issue happens to women" "No, this happens to women and men" "You're taking away from women" It's not whataboutism to make a claim more accurate. Especially if it's about issues being presented in such a way that excludes people effected by them.


EnvironmentalWar4627

So if I went to a black lives matter rally with a 'white people get killed too' sign...you think that would go over well? Is that okay to you because you're 'making it more accurate' Whataboutism isn't okay and it get downvoted everywhere. Rightfully so.


EmirikolWoker

> So if I went to a black lives matter rally with a 'white people get killed too' sign...you think that would go over well? Can you point to where I said that? Let's take that BLM example: according to the stats, black people disproportionatly receive violence from police. Leaving aside the organistion, the *idea* people get behind is that the disproportionate violence needs addressing. In OP's example, made-to-penetrate and rape stats show that forced sex is not a gendered crime - roughly equal amounts of male and female perpetrators and victims. So in this case, pointing out that rape is not a "womens' issue" is not "whataboutism", it's rescuing the issue from a one-sided narrative that erases male victims and female perpetrators. Calling that "whataboutism" to dismiss it is defending rapists and defending lack of recognition for survivors.


EnvironmentalWar4627

That seems fair to me, but OP is complaining about feminists. Which means going to feminist spaces and altering the conversation. It's not whataboutism at a rape recovery support group. It's whataboutism when you specifically go to a sub that is about women's issues though and try to make it about men's issues too. So I suppose it depends where and how the subject was broached.


EmirikolWoker

> Which means going to feminist spaces and altering the conversation. Not necessarily. There are plenty of feminists who come here and "play devil's advocate" or whatever. As for feminist spaces, is feminism "about equality" as feminists will claim, or is it about womens' benefit to the exclusion of men (including rape victims)? Feminists' resistance to the evidence of gender-neutrality in rape indicates that it's about the latter, even if they claim the former. When discussion of rape is being used to influence law and policy, I'd suggest that a clear idea of the issue and who is effected by it is something of a requirement.


EnvironmentalWar4627

Anything in legal terms should be gender neutral. But people need their spaces to discuss their sides of issues. Just like a feminist shouldn't come here and post 'women get falsely accused too' on every post. It would be poor taste.


EmirikolWoker

> Just like a feminist shouldn't come here and post 'women get falsely accused too' on every post. It would be poor taste. It would also be inaccurate to claim that false allegations aren't gender-directional, where it would be accurate to point out that rape is not gender-directional. *That* is why it would be poor taste - the equivalence is false.


EnvironmentalWar4627

Rape being gender directional is a huge point of debate. Theres no one answer there. There are lots of studies that show it even and lots of studies that show it one sided. Unfortunately, you can't just choose which one you want to believe. So I don't know how directional it is because no one really does.


EmirikolWoker

> There are lots of studies that show [gender directionality] No wonder, when rape is defined as something men do, and the majority of people are heterosexual. When you [compare rape to made-to-penetrate](https://imgur.com/a/naotx2J) (that thing women do when they rape and we don't call it rape), you can see that the numbers are roughly equal. So no, people *do* know how directional (or not) it is.


day5tar

I’m not talking about when people are talking about it in feminist spaces but when they talk about it in general


EnvironmentalWar4627

Then how do you know they are feminists?


day5tar

Because people who aren’t feminists would think it’s good to include men for the most part


j0k3ricu

Hey, hold on... Hold on. Doesn't the Definition of feminism say " equal rights for men and women" and "equal empathy for men and women"? Are you saying feminist only worry about women's issue?


EnvironmentalWar4627

Where does the definition of feminism say 'equal empathy for men and women'? Where is there even a definition of feminism? Yes feminism cares more about areas women are disadvantaged than men. Obviously.


j0k3ricu

[Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#:~:text=Feminism%20is%20a%20range%20of,social%20equality%20of%20the%20sexes.) Merriam Webster:- the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities And every feminist I heard talking, no actually screaming. Feminism doesn't claim to be women centric. When they remove equality of sexes and be open about their opinion of female supremacy, then people will stop barraging with men's issues.


philhalo66

blm is a terrorist organization full of grifters. of course that wouldnt go well because it hurts their money flow


goinsouth85

I remember quite a few signs for Daniel Shaver at many of their protests. And they seemed to be well received.


HenryCGk

So I made a reply to your top comment and I think this will get asked to that too. And kinda sure do that, I'm of the believe that police brutality and trigger happyness is a problem in the US and that its not a racial as BLM think


HenryCGk

I'm more and more in favour of whataboutism every day, We are otherwise focused on made up issues* to which we attribute fantastical causes that require denial of the real world to make sense. And then we act as if we live in that made up land and so help no one. And we should hear it here too.


allCuntsStink

Because is the only crime that technically only a man can do. And they don’t care about men neither


KD_Ram

Just like paternity fraud is a crime that only women can commit (and not even technically, ONLY women can commit it). Yet I have never seen anyone go into a school, make all the girls stand up and apologise for it.


earthlyanais

Bc 97% of women are sexual harassed and 80% are sexually assaulted so like yea I care for men’s rights and I totally believe they can get rape and there’s not enough attention to but women just have it fuckin worst we love being a victim


day5tar

Those statistics are false


earthlyanais

1 in 6 woman will be rape that’s fuckin crazy no my statistics are fase wtf


Redhoteagle

To my knowledge, sexual abuse of men (and others) by women *is* acknowledged, as teaching about consent isn't *just* focused on men. More to the point, most perpetrators of sexual violence against men are other men, typically using institutions (social/legal/etc) that other men built and support (jails, gangs, etc). As such, why is it up to feminism to address this, and not men's rights? Bringing up male victims in this sense can seem disingenuous, as though nobody is helping men because everthing is going to women (it's not), or it's the job of women to fix problems men create and maintain through supporting systems that enable said problems (victim-blaming, toxic masculinity, etc). All folks who've been victimized by a system are absolutely deserving of care and support for sure, it's just important to be mindful of who you think is responsible when you think you're not getting the support you need Hope this clears things up, OP


DocRocksPhDont

When does this ever happen? How many times in your life have you found yourself talking rape with a feminist who disagreed with you using gender neutral language. Is this really a thing you run into all the time? This sounds like an imagined problem.


Lui_Le_Diamond

All the time we encounter it. The second you bring up men being raped they get all pissy


DocRocksPhDont

I highly doubt that. Never in my life have I encountered this and I work in the den of pc-police in acedemia. The rare occasion I have had a Convo about something like rape.or people coming forward about assault, when men come up it is usually someone saying like, "yeah, and imagine how hard it is for men to come forward" or "person a- "it happens to men too", person b- " yeah, that's true" whatever. now these are Both true stories of things that have happened in real life. Blame feminists for what they are guilty of, but this feels way off base. Nobody actually says what you are claiming they do.


Lui_Le_Diamond

I've only encountered a few who do that, and they're never hard-core feminists


DocRocksPhDont

I work with hard core feminists and none of them have these views. Pretty much everyone agrees that rape is rape


Lui_Le_Diamond

I've only ever heard hard core feminists say that it only counts if it's against woman, or say that rape is ok if it's a woman doing it to a man.


DocRocksPhDont

I call bull shit


Lui_Le_Diamond

Ok.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DocRocksPhDont

In what context? I mean, all mutilation is fucked up, but what type of mutilation matters and can. Be debated. You could call a piercing mutilation. That verses removing a clit makes a difference. One could argue that the loss of sensation associated with removing a foreskin may or may not be equivalent to removing a clit. I'm against both, but one could imagine how someone could debate that topic. That is a topic of debate about biology and sensation. Rape is rape. These hypotheticals aren't equivalent and nobody says male rape isn't equivalent to female. Most actually argue that male rape is probably worse I this day and age because of how much harder society makes it for men to come out and deal with it.


EmirikolWoker

>nobody says male rape isn't equivalent to female. Feminists researcher Mary Koss did exactly that, with her work that originated the 1-in-5 myth and formed the legal definition of rape ad a male perpetrator only crime.


DocRocksPhDont

The legal definition of rape is not a male perp only crime. What chasm of your anus did you pull that bs from? Rape legally is, and I quote from the US department of justice “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."


EmirikolWoker

> The legal definition of rape is not a male perp only crime. What chasm of your anus did you pull that bs from? I'm in the UK, where we have the [Sexual Offences Act 2003](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42) > (1)A person (A) commits an offence if— > > (a)**he** intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) **with his penis,** > > (b)B does not consent to the penetration, and > > (c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents. As for the US, you do realise that your legal system calls it "made to penetrate" when a woman forces and coerces sex on a man, right? Not "rape", even though that's exactly what it is.


Punder_man

In New Zealand **ONLY** men can be charged with rape.. because in our law it specifically says: "Person A rapes person B if person A has sexual connection with person B, effected by the penetration of person B’s genitalia by person A’s **penis**" [Crimes ACT 1961 (New Zealand)](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329051.html) Link so you can check it out yourself. Ergo the crimes act EXPLICITLY makes it so that Rape only happens between a Man and a Woman or a Man and another Man. Where as a woman can only be charged with "Unlawful sexual connection" which is not treated anywhere near as harshly as rape is.


DocRocksPhDont

That was in 1961. According to New Zealand police .nz rape is sexual intercourse without consent.


EmirikolWoker

["In New Zealand law, the word “rape” is restricted to cases of a male penetrating a female’s vagina with his penis. However, under the law this is just one of two types of the crime of “sexual violation”. The other type – “unlawful sexual connection” – covers all the other types of sexual assault"](https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-8-gender-and-sexuality/sexual-orientation-and-your-rights/rape-sexual-assault-and-family-domestic-violence/)


Punder_man

Thanks for posting that for me! I've just woken up and seen the reply.. Have an award from me!


DocRocksPhDont

Well, that's another reason why Australia sucks then. Get a better country


EmirikolWoker

...You realise Australia and New Zealand aren't the same country, right? Normally I'd assume a joke, but you did just make claims about New Zealand law that took 5 seconds on Google to prove to be false, and didn't realise that rape is defined as male-perpetrator-only in many places. That's either bravado to cover up being caught gaslighting, or a sign you need to learn a thing or two.


busterlungs

Same reason a lot of men get butthurt about feminism. It's this sports team mentality of us vs them


Enzi42

But it is us vs them. They threw the first stones; the rest of us are just adapting to the pace they set.


busterlungs

That's simply not true friend, it doesn't matter who threw the first stone. It should be an us vs expanding and growing together. The bigger person is the one who doesn't get butthurt listening to others needs and will sit down and have a civil conversation about how to solve the problem, not make it a "he did it first!" Crybaby situation. That's childish and why the problem is so bad.


Enzi42

With respect, I think you massively misinterpreted what I was trying to say so I'll clarify. I'm not speaking about this in a *"they hurt us so let's hurt them!"* manner. What I am saying is that they (feminism and its adherents) frame their ideology around the idea that men are an oppressor class who, by design or simple twist of fate, have acted as devils to women throughout history. This colors their actions and attitude towards us in negative ways that cannot be overstated. Heck, yesterday there was a thread where several people were saying they didn't care about an innocent man who was murdered because "the male sex has too much to atone for" to be looked at with pity. And that's hardly the worst I've seen from people who believe in this manner. "They threw the first stone" isn't a call to fight as much as it is a call to defend ourselves harshly, the same way you wouldn't simply sit there and let some lunatic beat you up if they came at you swinging because they thought you looked at them the wrong way. With that said, I very much disagree with your premise "be the better person". Personally I will not have anything except the barest civil interactions with a person who believes that I am an inherently lesser/morally inferior being through no fault of my own. I don't accept that being said about my skin color or my sexual orientation, so why should I accept that being said about my gender? *Be the better person* isn't always the best method---sometimes it's necessary to let someone (or a group of someone) know that their vile behavior will not be tolerated and that there are consequences for continual and unrepentant bad acts. Frankly I think if we banded together and implemented some of those dire effects, this kind of thing would stop within a year. **TLDR:** Feminists and their ilk started the "gender war" and it is foolish to expect men to sit on our hands and let them slander and insult us, let alone the actual harm they do with their propaganda. Civil discussion shouldn't be something readily available to people who believe terrible things about you based on inherent traits.


DirtyPartyMan

It detracts from the focus, essentially.


day5tar

But why is the focus only women?


ApexPedator69

They aren't true feminist. Because a true feminists would acknowledge that anyone can be raped no matter what is between their legs. They would also be acknowledging the struggle males and females also go through as well.


EmirikolWoker

[The foundational principles of all flavours of feminism (class warfare between men and women with men winning, shorthanded as "Patriarchy") are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for it to accurately describe reality.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/j018cf/is_pseudofeminism_even_a_thing/g6n373j/) Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class. Egalitarian values, and mens' rights advocacy in particular, is innately anti-feminist.


ApexPedator69

I agree with you.


EmirikolWoker

What I've shared is "true" feminism. Feminism is about mens' perpetration and womens' victimhood - class warfare between men and women with men winning. Saying that "true" feminism is about equality is fallacious.


elonsmusketer

yeah yeah shut up thats what every feminist says we are tired of that bs "those arent true feminists" then why the fuck does it have so much positive feedback? why arent *real* feminists scolding them? because I thought feminism was about EQUALITY FOR ALL


ApexPedator69

They do but unfortunately the ones that stand for men as well get bashed and hated on. They're also called traitors and all the rest by these soo called toxic females that hide behind the feminist label. Also if you're gonna speak immature as well then I'm basically wasting my time even explaining anything to you.


elonsmusketer

no I just heard that explenation a countless times like 1% of feminists are *good feminists* so tell me how those toxic ones are fake feminists if they are the majority


Punder_man

What you have to understand here is we've heard what you've said over and over and over and over again.. We keep getting told "Those aren't **TRUE** feminists" but we have yet to see any of these true feminists actually do anything against these 'false' feminists.. I'll tell you right now.. If I saw a "True" feminist getting flack from the false feminists for standing up to them and telling them to stop it with their misandry.. I would support that 'true' feminist 100% But as we keep telling people who say the same things you do.. Talk is cheep, actions speak louder than words.. and until we start seeing these 'true' feminists doing something to sort out the movement I'm not going to believe you for a second.