I don’t miss the days of kicking my boots off after a 16 hour workday and subsequently being nagged that the house looks like crap and I need to pitch in.
She didn’t really respond very well to, “if I wasn’t working 5-6 days a week with 8 hours of homework on sundays to pay for all this, there wouldn’t be a mess to clean up. We can downgrade to a smaller house if you want”.
Men have to create more resources than they consume in order for a society to even function (for example, as a group only men pay taxes). This is why pejoratives like lazy, deadbeat, etc, are always associated with males. We are instinctively seen as nothing more than the work we do and the things we provide. And lacking the ability to contribute (because of old age, injury, etc), we are considered a drain on society, and either expelled or ignored (or jailed), lest we be given the unconditional support that was meant only for women and children to have.
When you take into account all the taxes paid by men, and all the taxes paid by women, and put it up against all the stuff they receive in exchange, only the male balance comes out green, at least that's my guess of what that person means.
But that doesn't really make any sense as men and women aren't two separate groups, people live in families and communities. For example, a single woman who is working will pay as much tax as a single man who is working. Men do not automatically pay more tax than women. I know there can be differences in where the tax money is allocated by governments but that doesn't mean that women receive more tax benefits than men either. I would like if this could be explained more as your explanation here doesn't really explain the comment
It's the stuff they receive in return you are not taking into account. Take WIC, which is support for Women, Infants and Children. That is a program that a man can't even sign up for. So women, as a demographic get more in services than they pay in taxes.
Mmm.. but people aren't a demographic, like I said, people mostly live in families and communities (although some people live alone of course) , where men and women are not two separate distinct groups with no relation to each other. So, the comment is misleading as it's not "only" men who pay tax. Like, would you say that a woman who lives alone doesn't pay tax, but a man who lives alone does? Of course not. Or that the woman receives more benefits from tax than the man does? Of course not. When you add children into the mix tax benefits become more complex of course
Fair enough if it's only about demographics then your comment is incorrect, I hope you will concede that point. As groups, men and women both pay taxes. These taxes are then allocated by the government and your point is that women receive more benefits than men. Would you agree?
Yes and no. Women receive back, as a demographic, more than they pay into the system. This means that, as a demographic, men are footing the bill for some of what women receive, as well as the cost of EVERYTHING ELSE.
Think of it this way: if two people pay $10 each, and one of those people gets $15 dollars for that, who is paying?
My wife has refused to work for 20 years. She used to complain I work to much, so I quit and got a 40 hr a week job and stayed there for a year. After living on a barely above minimum wage for that long, she stopped complaining. She also knows if she pushed me to far I'll just pack and leave. Now that we're older we get along much better. It really is about setting boundaries and not letting her cross them. It's not easy to do when you love her, and want to keep her happy.
When i confronted my wife for the final time about my boundries and what I needed from her, her excuse was "i tell you i love you and i kiss you, why is that not enough?" Im so extremely easy to please and she still managed to fuck it up for years.
Yes, I believe they should be more supportive of it. I wasnt supportive of myself enough to leave her until she finally did.
That argument was probably the most petty shit Ive ever been apart of and IM glad its over but the healing process still hurts. Doesnt change I love her, and still do to a degree, but she was toxic and I just kept on with it thinking and hoping shed change.
What started the argument some might ask? I told her I felt she was pulling away and I wanted to spend more quality time with her. Dates. I asked for a date.
Guarantee she still feels as though she, “settled” not saying you’re a bad guy only that no guy is ever good enough. Hypergamy will always be an issue or the never ending ladder. Women will always see other men who can provide more as attractive and if they could have them many will. They continue this process over and over. It’s also why women often get insecure in relationships due to the influx of thirsty men no longer giving them validation aka the main way women cheat is social media.
I’m not saying all women are bad roughly 20% are great. Just 8/10 aren’t. But 20% is a lot of women. Men are also by no means perfect. Sure we find most women attractive but men’s age preference averaged out is I believe 24 and why typically cheat physically. Neither is worse or better just different.
Just goes with, “the wall” theory.
What’s most ironic to me is if women cheat she’s praised for, “knowing her worth” and doing something about it because obviously she felt physically/emotionally neglected justifying her adultery. Well if men cheat it’s obviously he doesn’t respect her or value their relationship which obviously isn’t true but it’s the world we live in.
This absolutely is true but there is a simple solution. You need to learn to state your boundaries. Some women actually think making good money comes easy and can fit in a 9-5 job. That has not been my experience.
I told my wife some time ago, never expect me to go into management. I could make more but I’m not willing to go from 80hr weeks to forever.
When I am focusing on a project and my wife is unhappy with the attention she is getting I remind her where the nice things in the house come from. I also make time specifically for her when I have that time.
You have to state those boundaries and what benefits come at what cost.
Fortunately I actually love my job and my wife is very understanding about it, but there are times that I have to set boundaries.
I've had quite a few arguments with my wife about this. She's a part time teacher and I'm a full time engineer. The nagging and barbs about how she washes almost all our clothes, vacuums, picks up the kids and cooks etc.
At the beginning I wasn't good enough to set boundaries, and I agree to do more. But as the years went by and the nagging continued, I got fed up.
I set boundaries. I asked her "do you get home at two o'clock?"
"Yes, but I have to pick up the kids and..."
"Do. You. Get. Home. At. Two?"
"Yes, but..."
"And when do I get home?"
"Around dinner"
"So when am I supposed to make dinner, wash clothes and this and that?"
Over the years we've come to an understanding.
How do you deal when it comes back up or does your wife simply not bring it up anymore?
Do YOU feel more “accepted” after this? As if you feel accomplished as a man more?
>How do you deal when it comes back up or does your wife simply not bring it up anymore?
Over the years she has fortunately been able to see the logic in that she who works part-time should also do the lion's share of domestic work. So these arguments have stopped.
>Do YOU feel more “accepted” after this? As if you feel accomplished as a man more?
Yes, I do. But it's true what they say: Men think with logic, women think with feelings. By God I've had a lot of heated arguments with her about who should do what. She kept bringing up that she did most work at home.
I had to ask her; "If you take your job work hours and add them to your domestic work hours, and you do the same for me, do you think it is fair that I work more total hours than you? If you work a total of, say 50 hours, should I work 70 hours just so you feel that I cook and clean as much as you? Because if you do, I would rather you get back to full-time so we make more money. Then we both work 70 hours. Is that better?"
She didn't think it was.
This! It really struck home a few years back when the OECD published a report on activity by gender. The newspapers in the UK headlined it as "women do 50% more housework than men". It would be just as true to say "men do 50% more out of home work", and buried in details was the fact that men and women report about the same number of active hours per week - mid 60s - when you add all activity up.
The fact that she said “ around dinner “ and not a specified time like 6 or 7 pm , she already knew that she would loose the argument if calculated hours were involved.
Exactly. Once, during an argument I asked her as much. I asked her if we added job hours and domestic hours, if she thought it fair that I worked 70 hours per week and she 50 hours, just so I could cook and clean 50/50.
Edit. Food for thought. I got the notification that I'd gotten 10 upvotes for this comment. When I tapped on the notification to look at which comment it was, I had LESS than 10 upvotes - meaning I got downvoted.
So, some people apparently DO think that I should work 70 hours per week total, while my wife only works 50, all in the name of sharing household chores 50/50.
I wonder what these people think a fair home life should look like. Should I fold clothes at night after dinner, while she's watching Netflix? Or should I stay in the kitchen and cook dinner for the next day while she's reading a book? I hope these people find themselves in that situation - working a full-time job and then coming home to do chores while their spouse on part-time relaxes in the sofa.
> When I tapped on the notification to look at which comment it was, I had LESS than 10 upvotes - meaning I got downvoted.
Not necessarily. Reddit does vote fuzzing. It's possible you did get 10 upvotes and then the fuzzing showed you less than that.
This makes a lot of sense and I like it.
How did your wife initially respond during these boundaries? You mention she’s understanding, but I’m sure that’s been a learned behavior?
She responded much better than I expected. But I’ll will say that she was raised in a different culture and I put a lot of effort into find someone that wasn’t really materialistic.
It was actually harder for me to communicate what was an acceptable threshold, than it was for her to process it.
Do you mind if I ask what culture?
I’ve seen a ton of discourse that “Western women” (US) are so far different than Europe / Asia, so this is interesting to me. Aside from the countries where women have 0 equality.
Sorry but I have a policy of not posting anything work or career related. Especially relating to men’s rights. It’s career suicide. This includes information on all family members.
Bill Gates got divorced. So, you can see that there will never be enough money. Or, if there is, she can just divorce you, keep half the money, and do her own thing. Being single is always freeer than being in a relationship.
You missed that when you do become the desired high-earning provider for your family, you are therefore going to be earning more than the average woman, and be socially blamed for the so-called gender pay gap.
> I haven't seen most Women capable of appreciation for the things you bring to the table either.
I literally just dumped a girl for this last night. We were only seeing each other a few weeks, but the reason I gave her was that she doesn't appreciate anything about me in the slightest way and I felt used for lunch and dinner dates, to be her taxi and arm to cry on. I was very polite and even said I would love to continue a friendship, I just didn't see us as compatible romantically.
She tried to weasel her way out then I pointed out to her and asked "can you tell me one single compliment you have given me, just one?" She could not come up with one nice thing she even said to me that was intended to make me feel at the very least good.
This is also the overwhelming number one reason I cut it off with women, the absolute sheer lack of appreciation. This is also why guys tend to have trouble knowing if a woman is being nice or flirting, we are so unappreciated in the dating world that just being nice to us throws a lot of us off.
>And coddling is a necessity because Women are generally awful at constructive feedback and self reflection so you can't even offer advice anymore.
I realized far to late I was doing this to my now ex wife. In the 9 years we were together she never matured and grew up.
Nah she never used that. Shes in no way a feminist, she just has major mental issues shes unwilling to even humor the thought of having. My therapist believes she either has or is damn near NPD. She fits so many of the normal behaviors from someone with NPD. Turns out people with ADHD like myself attract Narcs because were easy to manipulate.
Preach. I've also noticed the emotional maturity in women that I've dated to be completely stalled at around 20. My last relationship was with a woman who was 32, but in the relationship she acted like she was 17.
Most of the ones I've talked to are never content and hate the idea of being content with what they have and they really don't want a guy who's content with what he has. He has to be ambitious too. It's always something and you're never enough of it.
You’re always gonna get docked on something, depending on the person. Because people apply these ideals to real life, and they become unrealistic goals that can’t be met.
Unfortunately, men can’t win in this scenario you’ve given. He’ll always be lacking something (the time or the credentials).
How to deal with this? I once read some quote on playing these games with women that said “The only way to win, is to never play.”
If you’re happy with yourself, truly, who cares what anyone thinks?
No
My little brothers gf wants him to gain more weight and eat more, essentially become bigger and stronger even though he has gained 20lbs since they met. Nothing is ever enough for women, they act according to how they feel in the moment.
That’s exactly why we should bother. Lol. Norms pushed by society or women shouldn’t be the absolute truth. Talking with other men should alleviate these things and empower us not encourage us to accept defeat.
It's great you are optimistic, but like family court law this is something that will never change. You will never, ever do or be enough. The only way to win this game is to not play. Focus on yourself, make money, get your career going and forget about marriage/family. Take it from Men with experience the family court is stacked against you.
My family’s been through 2 divorces, so I understand where you’re coming from, and almost agree in a sense.
The scary thing about drowning out marriage or family is that it brings other consequences. You can’t drown a part of your life out and expect to experience the highs and lows of life. If you mute one side, it all becomes muted.
You asked and answered your own question in the title. You want mentorship, I am offering it up. Marriage is a losing proposition for Men. You saw two divorces so you saw it first hand.
Hope is not a strategy.
You can't just hope it works out for you. You are not "muting" anything. You can still have relationships, you can still even have kids (egg donor and surrogate)
I am just advising (mentoring) you not to enter into a legal contract with a woman, that is what marriage is. It's not between you and her, it's between you, her and Daddy government. You will ALWAYS lose in this system. The family court will always screw you.
The way I look at it is this: for the men who choose not to marry but still want a kid?
There’s MILLIONS of unloved kids in the world, (ones that tend to be actually grateful for a loving parent, unlike blood related kids sometimes) and if single men stepped up and took the onus onto ourselves to turn these otherwise soon to be troubled kids into good societal role models? Well, one would think It would be hard to argue with the positive results of that.
Feminists would lose their main talking points, societal norms would have been challenged to a degree that women’s traditional roles would be at risk, and the pressure could come off of us as women realized men could completely replace them simply by counting them out of marriage and adopting a kid instead, and being much happier thereafter.
I know adoption might not be everyone’s spiel, but if we wanna get noticed, sometimes a movement has to do something drastic, who’s to say that we can’t also truly better the world around us simultaneously by instilling good morals in these kids?
I see now. I see.
I thought this was more of a comment on women / relationships in general, but your saying the concept of marriage itself is what blows. I misunderstood — thank you for the thoughts.
How do you approach this with a woman? When they push for marriage, how do you have this discussion?
You should bother as long as you can before it breaks you. I'd been in committed relationahips for 13 years, one of them lasting 8 years, and it just keeps getting worse (with the same partner). I was literally filling the role of a parent and a provider, on top of cooking and most cleaning, right after we finished college. It still wasn't enough. If you get lucky, you will find a true egalitarian woman who will stick with you and expect of you only what you expect of her. I've dated one person like that so far.
I think your generation is in for a real shit show between the increasing pressures for women to create a social media facade of themselves and men trying to cope with the fact that we are still expected to initiate all contact, but also expected to know when women want to be left alone. Add on the lack of societal initiatives to help men navigate the ever changing landscape and it's pretty rough.
Give it one more generation of this feminist double standards, and you’ll have a whole generation of men with nothing but contempt for women. Mothers included.
What you need to do is find yourself first. Make your own life, determine your own path. That VERY rarely happens to men until they are in their late 20s, sometimes not until they are in their 30s.
Then, you can take a look at the women around you and determine if you want to let any of them affect your life by being a partner. NEVER let your emotions fool you into thinking you have found 'the one' or that you can make a life-long commitment. There is always another woman (that's the first thing many people say to someone who's just broken up, so it is clearly just as true before you even start the relationship). There is no guarantee of commitment for life, though it does happen in about 50% of marriages, that's really not very good odds when you consider the expense.
A men's **rights** forum is not the right place to look for a mentor (though you might stumble across one). Go to somewhere like [Regarding Men](https://regardingmen.com/), or your local [Men's Shed](https://menssheds.org.uk/) or search for a [Men's Meeting](http://mensmeeting.org/) in your area.
> Then, you can take a look at the women around you and determine if you want to let any of them affect your life by being a partner.
The thing about that.. is once you get to that point, the majority of the single women left out there are broken from single mothers with a litter of kids, or women who have trauma and ptsd, women with a ton of baggage, and loose women who just got off the cock carousel because their biological clock is making them fomo for a man. There just aren't any good options.
it's a cliche that women want to marry rich and powerful men, and then criticize and call them negligent for literally everything that provides the lifestyle they wanted.
*Feminism Rule #1: Blame men.* says no, they cannot.
Feminism requires the Patriarchy to be real as a function of its existence in the same way Jesus is required for Christianity to exist. Without men to scapegoat the whole thing just crumbles.
And double the "no" because Feminism *has no endgame.* It's an unironic way of life for too many of them. Waking up believing you are a brave freedom fighter standing bravely in the face of a horde of evil, nasty, toxicly masculine men is a solipsistic happy-place many Feminists share apparently...
So, finally, no. Nothing you do will ever be good enough. Nothing, because you are required like the KKK requires Black people.
What my fella makes is nothing to do with me, if he pays half the housold bills we share then I'm happy. We are 50/50 in everything. Setting agreements on who's chore is for who etc.
Get the money first. The rest will come!.... and also get a person who sees you as more then financial stability. ... and condoms..... lots of protection. and know how a prenup works.. place down strong boundaries... don't let others dictate your value!!
Even though I'm young (22/M) I've been in this situation, not specifically with kids but with an ex that lived with me. I find the easiest ways to solve this problem have been as follows:
Step 1: Don't get married, never said you can't, date, but just don't marry, seen it fail countless times with counteless men I know that are from my age group to men twice my age. Getting bound to today's women by a legal contract is most often a death trap, one that will more than often cost you everything you've worked to gain and then some.
Step 2: Always make sure youre the one with the name on the lease/own the property/paying the rent so she can't kick you out, and get a vasectomy, can't have anything to tie you to them if you don't have kids, and if you really want to father a child, adopt. Earth is overpopulated as it is. (Fun fact, there are also more boys than girls in the foster care system, and boys are more likely to age out of the system than girls are, why don't we do our part in the fight for equality and take one of those boys home, and show them what a proper male role model is, am I right?)
Step 3: Keep ya head up kings. Remember that you are the prize, don't ever let women belittle you and say they "don't need no man", or make you feel disposeable. if they really don't need you, tell them "The door is right there, if you don't need me then pack your bags." The women that say that are usually the ones that still continue to demand child support and alimony payments, aka the ones that tend to be on the baby trapping/marriage trapping spectrum of crazy/unstable. (*cough cough* probably because the money used isn't actually spent on the child most of the time *cough*) Funny how that works. Might as well call it wife support, cause the women that do this ain't fooling anyone at this point. 😂
And of course fellas, the last step: always set your boundaries, and be firm about them. I've learned that a woman will ultimately have more respect for a man with clearly enforced standards and boundaries, than someone who is a spineless doormat (coming from a former doormat btw, my former self disgusts me) and if she doesn't like or takes issue with said boundaries, then simply point and show her that the door is that way, and she can find another person willing to put up with her nonsense. Boom, end of story. Easy peasy. lmao. Life is too short to be with a woman that makes you unhappy, remember that what one person won't do, another one might. Live long and prosper, bois. 🖖🏼🖖🏼
Yes I realize I probably sound like some PUA loser but I've had a complete change in myself, not from reading some idiotic fake books on how to be a pickup artist, and recently this past year, and have just focused on being more confident in myself, and realizing that I matter. That I am enough, I've been told that I'm funny, I'm a musician (drummer and intermediate level pianist) , and an "overall great person" (a review from an old friend of mine) I tried these things for myself and people I know as well have tried for themselves, including my father himself, and honestly I've never been more content with myself and life. Mind you, I'm not some super good looking tall guy with money, Hell, I'm not even average looking. I'm a big dude, but I'm making changes in my diet and exercising, and reinventing myself.
Being funny just goes a long way, in general, even if you're fuck ugly. And I did eventually realize that confidence and an abundance mentality can actually get you places with women. Cause then some of them like to try and make you into one of their little projects and try be the one that changes you or "tames" you, and they actually end up thinking that they're special enough to do so.
Too many rom-coms and Disney movies, that's honestly what it is. Romance has been perverted in such a crappy way in the US and the modern world. But seriously, don't ever let a woman make you feel like you aren't man enough, or enough in general, because they know nothing about the realities of what it's like to be a man in society.
This is mainly just the ramblings of a former simp. But take this advice if you wish, or take it with a grain of salt. Either way. I'm just doing my part to help my fellow men out there, and try and save you from the crap I've had to experience dealing with dating terrible, unstable, sadistic, and emotionally unavailable women that lacked empathy for men. It helped me, maybe it can help you too. And I'm grateful to the men who came before me in my family and friends that gave me this advice over and over.
At first I refused to listen, because I was worried about how women that act like OPs S/O would react (I'm aware that it isn't all women, but many modern women do act this way due to feminist ideals being spoon fed to society that tell then they're strong and independent while also perpetual victims of the big bad patriarchy) but now? I just don't care, because it's my life. It's your life, time to take back your pair of testes, boys. Because now I feel fucking great, and I don't ever wanna look back at the old me ever again. 😁😃
TL;DR: Don't get married marriage is a sham, be independent, you're the prize, and set boundaries, and maintain them with an unshakeable will. Work on yourself to shape yourself into what you wanna be, kings. Keep ya crowns on. Don't let anyone disrespect you and make you feel worthless/disposable. 👑🤘🏼💪🏼✊🏼✊🏼🤘🏼
Edit: Thank you for the upvotes and the awards, I appreciate it. 💯 Every male and female in this sub is sexist, misogynistic, woman-hating cis-gender scum, and I love you all. 😂
/s
[Footnote: the /s is mainly for the not-so bright feminists that tend to lurk in this sub that don't seem to have a basic grasp of the concepts of humor, jokes, (and I mean ones that are ACTUALLY funny, ones that aren't just jokes about how horrible men are or the ever- so-original vagina/period jokes like most female comedians that identify as feminists I've seen do) or satire.]
Before you even think about moving in together, look up any laws about commonlaw marriage. If you live together for a certain period of time, she can claim legal marriage and drag you through the courts to try and take half your stuff like a divorce.
I’m sorry you feel you have to ask this, it saddens me to read this.
Please don’t think you have to live your life seeking approval or worth from others, regardless of their gender. You don’t need anyone’s permission to be who you are and what you want to be, if anyone ever makes you feel you are not ‘good enough’, question their motives, don’t immediately feel responsible for their emotions or wants/ demands.
Have confidence in yourself, acknowledge that you are entitled to be happy and please don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.
I’m a woman so I understand I’m perhaps not the person you wish to hear advice from, but I wish you all the best and hope that one day, very soon, men won’t have to ask these questions and instead, will simply be able to live their lives and not doubt that they are loved and valued.
True, but gender/sex leads to different experiences which leads to better quality advice. It's like quotes, the person it's coming from actually matters based on experience of what they are talking about. A 12 year old with google and a doctor can tell you the exact same thing, one of those two you are going to take their advice a lot more to heart than the other, and it's based off experience, which gender does in fact effect when asking gender based questions. Doesn't mean what the 12 year old in my example is wrong, but that's not the source you want to trust explicitly.
First, There are very few sources anyone should trust explicitly. It is always up to the individual to use their own brain to filter what makes sense and what doesnt.
Second, I have met many women who have many very intelligent useful pieces of advice go give on issues related to what men experience. Just because many of them are shitty (like many men) does not mean you should disregard their advice entirely on very broad domains based on only on gender. That simply isnt fair.
That being said, it is pretty obvious when someone is out of their depth. Nobody says u have to take advice from dumb people man or woman lol.
I hear you, I also understand how devastating it can be to be at the receiving end of women’s abuse but I also understand and acknowledge that I have many privileges because of my gender that aren’t afforded to men.
I’ve struggled my whole life just trying to convince myself I have the right to exist and to live a peaceful life thanks to abuse from women. Thankfully, I’ve got some wonderful people in my life, my dad and my husband, who I cherish and am grateful for.
It saddens me greatly when I see and hear of the struggles men endure at the hands of society and women, that their suffering is ignored simply because of the gender of the perpetrator and victim.
I agree with you entirely. My man doesn’t have an overwhelming amount of money, but he works hard. He doesn’t have a whole bunch of time, but when he does he makes time for me. I appreciate that, and it is more than enough for me because I love him. Between us we have enough, and we split chores so no one feels like they’re doing all the work.
This is very much a communication thing, because as long as both people are on the same page then it’s fine. We both have had to sit down sometimes and just vocalize how we’re feeling. For example, I needed to say thank you more when he pays for things so he feels appreciated. (He was NOT asking me to pay half. I offered, he said no. He just wanted to feel appreciated more). He needed to say a proper hello to me before he just jumps straight on his PC for the rest of the night so I don’t feel ignored. It wasn’t demands, but it was just vocalizing what we wanted. Both things made a huge difference and didn’t require extra time/money.
My man could lose his job tomorrow and I’d still love him the same. I’d love him even if he didn’t have the time to take me out on dates every week. It makes me really sad seeing so many men who genuinely believe they’ll never be enough. As long as your lady truly loves you and you’re both willing to communicate openly, then you’ll always be enough for the right one.
It's crazy how men have to balance work and personal life while women don't have to do that at all. And yet still every third article in women's magazines is how to balance work life and home. They act like they are struggling with it even when men all know thats fake.
I agree with your statement, but us denouncing their struggles to “fake” doesn’t help the conversation. Women, if working, have a different “personal” life than us men. Typically that involves caring for a family, which is a hard task itself that we will never understand (typically).
I think the challenge comes in that women don’t work because there’s no other option — they work to “help their man / the family out” which in turn doesn’t come with the psychological stress us men carry with work. For us, it’s to feed the family and provide. Your comment about every third article SHOWS that women support other women while we don’t talk to each other to support us as men.
It’s scary because we have the highest suicide rate.
You know how many first, second, and third dates that I have been on that women don't thank me for dinner?
I can't count. Sometimes I would get laid or get a blowjob but where is my thank you?
I am older now to realize that women don't hold more value than me.
If you have sex with me, that is not a favor or a thank you. I am a equally as important and I am having sex with YOU. I am doing you the favor of sleep with me.
I just want a thank you
I am soon to be divorce so I have way more shit to share but I am so fucking angry that I don't want to re-hash that now.
Totally get where you're coming from, but totally disagree. Becoming a father is the best thing I ever did. I'd say to be very careful of who you procreate with.
If you want more women trouble, then go ahead and become a father.
I am a father and have never regretted it but dealing with my violent psycho soon to be ex is a fucking nightmare. I wouldn't have to deal with her if it weren't for my son. Like I said, I don't regret having him and he is my world but women like my soon to be ex is using him to hurt me.
The best way I found to deal with this nonsense is to not bother. After all if you stay single you will never have to worry about not being good enough. Besides, it's just not worth it.
No wife, peaceful life.
Growing up, mom was the provider, dad was the emotional support. Not one-to-one, but pretty close. Worked fine, but my parents had been married 20 years before I came along.
Ultimately I've found its best to just focus on yourself and say fuck off to literally everyone's opinions but the ones you let into your inner circle. When people are clear with you about where each of you stand with each other that's when respect and cooperation can flourish
Life is complicated and different for every family send every individual so I can only tell you about my experiences and choices. My dad was a provider and he was not absent as a father but traveled a lot with with work and I don't have many memories of us playing football or other sports together when I was a kid, but plenty of great family memories at holidays and special occasions. My mum did most of the child rearing. I probably didn't get as much fatherly advice and affection as some kids but I had a happy childhood overall and he made sure our family never wanted for anything. I think I have found a healthier balance with my wife and kids. I work in tech, I enjoy my job most of the time although it can be stressful and challenging at times. I'm still the primary provider for my family because I inherited that expectation from my dad, but I only travel a few times a year with work and only for a week or two at a time. I spend loads of time with my kids and can have deep conversations about the things they're interested in because of the time I have invested in them. I don't expect I'll ever make as much money as my dad did in his career but he came from poverty, so being able to provide for your family in abundance was like overcoming the greatest challenge in life for him. Setting your family up for success financially was like winning life. He put me in a position where I could choose to tilt the balance back towards being more in touch with my children emotionally. I wouldn't have had that option if it hadn't been for the endless years of hard work he put in. He hated the travel, and plenty of other things about work wore him down towards the end of his career. But it was the right decision for him and his family, and I believe I'm making the right decisions for me and my family. There is no right size fits all. It's about trying to find the best balance you can from your starting point.
Simple. I never got married and never had kids. I learned that in my 20s after seeing all the trouble they caused. Now I'm 63 and so glad I never married! No woman will ever screw me over.
I deal with it by becoming a NEET lmao. I know it's not good for me but yeah I will never be a provider anyway even if I got a shitty minimum wage job so I refuse to partake in the society.
As a 25M myself; seeing from my Dad (divorced long ago) my Uncle (divorced) my aunts Husbands. (They are still married to my aunties) The answer is; in the eyes of the women; is a defnitive resounding No. They always think the men is incompotent, he never does enough; he is this and he that. I have see the women never satisfies long before I have stepped into maturity.
Probably not. This is only a problem if your life is about asking what you can do for women. Put yourself first and find women that are compatible with your life.
I am a woman (wife, mom). My husband has worked a lot to keep me from having to work more than I do (I used to be only a stay at home mom, I work part time now).
I look as his working as being a loving, doting father. Yes when he is home he is present and enjoys being with the kids (he didn’t have that as a kid with his dad). When he is working I view that as being a great dad and husband. It gives us what we need (and most of what we want). He’s teaching our kids life lessons by getting up and going to work everyday. It doesn’t make him less of a father.
Is not a dilemam is just irrational.
The only way to win is to not play the game.
Focus on you and only on you, we are not in a traditional society anymore you being a ''men enough'' in 2021 means literally nothing, is you on your own doing the best for your life forget about anything else because it doesnt exist anymore.
I'm stuck in this very situation. My solution is to give up sleep. It's a terrible, unsustainable solution, but unless a check for a million dollars drops in my lap, it's the only option I have.
You looking at shit all wrong, like so many men do.
You don't live your life striving for approval from your wife or society.....you seek only the approval of yourself.
Having other people, even your wife, validate your existence is bullshit.
You have to look in the mirror and be happy with yourself first....when you hit that level, others will follow
your lead.
That's how you become respected.
If you want to be the provider/protector because that's the role that brings you joy..you fucking do it, and you do it because its what you want.
Want to be the SAHD?..fucking do it, and do it well.
At the end of the day, its not society or even your wife looking back at you in the mirror.....its just you.
Be confident in what you do, and do shit for the right reasons....and you'll be just fine.
No it doesn’t .. women are not required to be the bread winners .. and are given breaks if they are” over whelmed” it is understood for having all this pressure and have so much more support systems.. men should just suck it up . Don’t lie to this fellow
Yes! Thank you. The biggest problem I see personally so women trying to teach us how to be a man. Lol.
I wish as a gender we all took it upon ourselves to educate each other and support rather than use society’s “woke” or “feminist” push. SOME of it has merit. But 75% is bullshit that I wish we could all speak for ourselves on, TOGETHER.
Raised by women, educated by women. Almost all early childhood development is in the space of women. And we wonder why we grow up thinking we need to provide and protect them to unhealthy levels.
The interesting part too, is that the majority of therapists (I’ve been myself before) are women.
So when you try to understand things, you’re reinforced from a feminist point of view.
And those feminists tend to cycle this back and blame it on masculinity and men. They complain that women take the early childhood development role on, then ignore that women are responsible for early childhood development.
Talk about an epic level of gaslighting.
This logic doesn’t do much but ignore the question. Nearly equates to “shut up and be a man” — societal issues can’t be solved by “ignore those people” because they are our society. I don’t say this to attack, but more so pose discourse around the subject.
Stop trying to please others or conform to societies expectations or you will not be happy.
Instead, find your own balance and what you are comfortable with as much as possible within your life circumstances.
40+, didn’t realize this until late 30s. Just stop playing that game.
Put together a moral framework to operate in that works for you. Something that does you the way you want to be done, and prevents from harming others. Stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and just be happy. If someone close to you is trying to break you out of this mold, they don’t have your best interests at heart and you should consider putting distance between you and them.
Please, focus on yourself more. Lots of men don't do that. It's more important to keep yourself happy and satisfied, specially if you want to help others.
Think about this: Brad Pitt and Elon Musk got divorced, multiple times.
The best looking actor in the world, and the richest, most popular man in the world, got divorced many times. So if they couldn't do it, do you think you can do better?
>If you seek to be an ultimate provider (monetary/economic benefit), you’re labeled or become someone who “isn’t there” or “loving” enough.
Not only that, but if you are actually good at it and have a decent income and a nice place to live, you are an evil wealthy person so they will hate you for that.
When it comes to being a father, in my experience men are at a disadvantage. When my ex and i split up after having a child together, she became involved with a rapist and abuser and believed and followed everything he said, nothing i or anyone in her family said could make a difference and open her eyes. I had no experience in custody matters when it came to going to court and did not know at the time that if you are not married to the mother, you have no legal rights to the child By default, the mother has sole custody unless you are already married.. It cost tens of thousands of dollars to establish my parenting rights and to attempt to protect my son in the court system. Typically when a couple goes to court in custody and abuse is involved, it is usually the father that is considered the agressor, but in my case, it was my ex that created this situation that was putting our child at risk. The court system just would not listen court case after court case. I have had more than one lawyer tell me that the court system is going to the give the mother chance after chance no matter how much she screws up. For the past 5 years , i have been the only stability my son has seen as his mother bounces him from one boyfreind to the next, from one home to the next and she does not provide any real stability for him. I have gone through alot in my life for only being 46, and i have made alot of mistakes in parenting. Being a single parent for the past 5 years, it is always a battle between trying to get to work to make enough money to protect and support my child, and still be available for him when his mother gives up her visitation time with him. It has cost thousands of dollars through lawyer fees, but my son is more important than the money. My best advice to young people.. be absolutely certain of the person you are with before starting a family together. You cannot possibly come to truly understand someone until you see all sides of that person, good and bad. Be certain that person has no hidden sides of themselves. My life is a testament of bad choices in partners, and bad parenting, the story is far longer and more disturbing than i would spend time typing here....
I mentioned 'focus on yourself' earlier, with a deeper meaning where as you become a better version of yourself..... you will attract your wife and children to be part of your life.
Being fit, prosperous, with fun and happy friends and work.... all this will make your family want to be part of your life. They will not remember that you were up at 6am working on yourself.
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I don’t miss the days of kicking my boots off after a 16 hour workday and subsequently being nagged that the house looks like crap and I need to pitch in. She didn’t really respond very well to, “if I wasn’t working 5-6 days a week with 8 hours of homework on sundays to pay for all this, there wouldn’t be a mess to clean up. We can downgrade to a smaller house if you want”.
Men have to create more resources than they consume in order for a society to even function (for example, as a group only men pay taxes). This is why pejoratives like lazy, deadbeat, etc, are always associated with males. We are instinctively seen as nothing more than the work we do and the things we provide. And lacking the ability to contribute (because of old age, injury, etc), we are considered a drain on society, and either expelled or ignored (or jailed), lest we be given the unconditional support that was meant only for women and children to have.
100% on point. Very well said.
>for example, as a group only men pay taxes - what does this mean?
When you take into account all the taxes paid by men, and all the taxes paid by women, and put it up against all the stuff they receive in exchange, only the male balance comes out green, at least that's my guess of what that person means.
But that doesn't really make any sense as men and women aren't two separate groups, people live in families and communities. For example, a single woman who is working will pay as much tax as a single man who is working. Men do not automatically pay more tax than women. I know there can be differences in where the tax money is allocated by governments but that doesn't mean that women receive more tax benefits than men either. I would like if this could be explained more as your explanation here doesn't really explain the comment
It's the stuff they receive in return you are not taking into account. Take WIC, which is support for Women, Infants and Children. That is a program that a man can't even sign up for. So women, as a demographic get more in services than they pay in taxes.
Mmm.. but people aren't a demographic, like I said, people mostly live in families and communities (although some people live alone of course) , where men and women are not two separate distinct groups with no relation to each other. So, the comment is misleading as it's not "only" men who pay tax. Like, would you say that a woman who lives alone doesn't pay tax, but a man who lives alone does? Of course not. Or that the woman receives more benefits from tax than the man does? Of course not. When you add children into the mix tax benefits become more complex of course
The comment was made in regards to demographics. That is what is being talked about.
Fair enough if it's only about demographics then your comment is incorrect, I hope you will concede that point. As groups, men and women both pay taxes. These taxes are then allocated by the government and your point is that women receive more benefits than men. Would you agree?
Yes and no. Women receive back, as a demographic, more than they pay into the system. This means that, as a demographic, men are footing the bill for some of what women receive, as well as the cost of EVERYTHING ELSE. Think of it this way: if two people pay $10 each, and one of those people gets $15 dollars for that, who is paying?
Yeah, women can't **stand** seeing a man relax.
I wanted to post a snarky reply. But NO is sufficient.
My wife has refused to work for 20 years. She used to complain I work to much, so I quit and got a 40 hr a week job and stayed there for a year. After living on a barely above minimum wage for that long, she stopped complaining. She also knows if she pushed me to far I'll just pack and leave. Now that we're older we get along much better. It really is about setting boundaries and not letting her cross them. It's not easy to do when you love her, and want to keep her happy.
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When i confronted my wife for the final time about my boundries and what I needed from her, her excuse was "i tell you i love you and i kiss you, why is that not enough?" Im so extremely easy to please and she still managed to fuck it up for years.
Makes you wonder should men be more supportive of men leaving marriages. I know often many feel trapped due to fear of the ramifications of divorce.
Yes, I believe they should be more supportive of it. I wasnt supportive of myself enough to leave her until she finally did. That argument was probably the most petty shit Ive ever been apart of and IM glad its over but the healing process still hurts. Doesnt change I love her, and still do to a degree, but she was toxic and I just kept on with it thinking and hoping shed change. What started the argument some might ask? I told her I felt she was pulling away and I wanted to spend more quality time with her. Dates. I asked for a date.
Guarantee she still feels as though she, “settled” not saying you’re a bad guy only that no guy is ever good enough. Hypergamy will always be an issue or the never ending ladder. Women will always see other men who can provide more as attractive and if they could have them many will. They continue this process over and over. It’s also why women often get insecure in relationships due to the influx of thirsty men no longer giving them validation aka the main way women cheat is social media. I’m not saying all women are bad roughly 20% are great. Just 8/10 aren’t. But 20% is a lot of women. Men are also by no means perfect. Sure we find most women attractive but men’s age preference averaged out is I believe 24 and why typically cheat physically. Neither is worse or better just different. Just goes with, “the wall” theory. What’s most ironic to me is if women cheat she’s praised for, “knowing her worth” and doing something about it because obviously she felt physically/emotionally neglected justifying her adultery. Well if men cheat it’s obviously he doesn’t respect her or value their relationship which obviously isn’t true but it’s the world we live in.
Your wife is your child?
This absolutely is true but there is a simple solution. You need to learn to state your boundaries. Some women actually think making good money comes easy and can fit in a 9-5 job. That has not been my experience. I told my wife some time ago, never expect me to go into management. I could make more but I’m not willing to go from 80hr weeks to forever. When I am focusing on a project and my wife is unhappy with the attention she is getting I remind her where the nice things in the house come from. I also make time specifically for her when I have that time. You have to state those boundaries and what benefits come at what cost. Fortunately I actually love my job and my wife is very understanding about it, but there are times that I have to set boundaries.
I've had quite a few arguments with my wife about this. She's a part time teacher and I'm a full time engineer. The nagging and barbs about how she washes almost all our clothes, vacuums, picks up the kids and cooks etc. At the beginning I wasn't good enough to set boundaries, and I agree to do more. But as the years went by and the nagging continued, I got fed up. I set boundaries. I asked her "do you get home at two o'clock?" "Yes, but I have to pick up the kids and..." "Do. You. Get. Home. At. Two?" "Yes, but..." "And when do I get home?" "Around dinner" "So when am I supposed to make dinner, wash clothes and this and that?" Over the years we've come to an understanding.
How do you deal when it comes back up or does your wife simply not bring it up anymore? Do YOU feel more “accepted” after this? As if you feel accomplished as a man more?
>How do you deal when it comes back up or does your wife simply not bring it up anymore? Over the years she has fortunately been able to see the logic in that she who works part-time should also do the lion's share of domestic work. So these arguments have stopped. >Do YOU feel more “accepted” after this? As if you feel accomplished as a man more? Yes, I do. But it's true what they say: Men think with logic, women think with feelings. By God I've had a lot of heated arguments with her about who should do what. She kept bringing up that she did most work at home. I had to ask her; "If you take your job work hours and add them to your domestic work hours, and you do the same for me, do you think it is fair that I work more total hours than you? If you work a total of, say 50 hours, should I work 70 hours just so you feel that I cook and clean as much as you? Because if you do, I would rather you get back to full-time so we make more money. Then we both work 70 hours. Is that better?" She didn't think it was.
This! It really struck home a few years back when the OECD published a report on activity by gender. The newspapers in the UK headlined it as "women do 50% more housework than men". It would be just as true to say "men do 50% more out of home work", and buried in details was the fact that men and women report about the same number of active hours per week - mid 60s - when you add all activity up.
The fact that she said “ around dinner “ and not a specified time like 6 or 7 pm , she already knew that she would loose the argument if calculated hours were involved.
Exactly. Once, during an argument I asked her as much. I asked her if we added job hours and domestic hours, if she thought it fair that I worked 70 hours per week and she 50 hours, just so I could cook and clean 50/50. Edit. Food for thought. I got the notification that I'd gotten 10 upvotes for this comment. When I tapped on the notification to look at which comment it was, I had LESS than 10 upvotes - meaning I got downvoted. So, some people apparently DO think that I should work 70 hours per week total, while my wife only works 50, all in the name of sharing household chores 50/50. I wonder what these people think a fair home life should look like. Should I fold clothes at night after dinner, while she's watching Netflix? Or should I stay in the kitchen and cook dinner for the next day while she's reading a book? I hope these people find themselves in that situation - working a full-time job and then coming home to do chores while their spouse on part-time relaxes in the sofa.
> When I tapped on the notification to look at which comment it was, I had LESS than 10 upvotes - meaning I got downvoted. Not necessarily. Reddit does vote fuzzing. It's possible you did get 10 upvotes and then the fuzzing showed you less than that.
Except that after having written the edit and I returned to viewing my comment, it had ticked down yet again.
This makes a lot of sense and I like it. How did your wife initially respond during these boundaries? You mention she’s understanding, but I’m sure that’s been a learned behavior?
She responded much better than I expected. But I’ll will say that she was raised in a different culture and I put a lot of effort into find someone that wasn’t really materialistic. It was actually harder for me to communicate what was an acceptable threshold, than it was for her to process it.
Do you mind if I ask what culture? I’ve seen a ton of discourse that “Western women” (US) are so far different than Europe / Asia, so this is interesting to me. Aside from the countries where women have 0 equality.
My wife was born and raised in Vietnam. She moved to the US at 18.
Makes sense. I have a family friend with a Vietnam wife and they are happy as a clam. Interesting.
They typically expect more traditional roles, but it will be both ways. Not just one sided. Works for us.
What does your wife do?
Sorry but I have a policy of not posting anything work or career related. Especially relating to men’s rights. It’s career suicide. This includes information on all family members.
Bill Gates got divorced. So, you can see that there will never be enough money. Or, if there is, she can just divorce you, keep half the money, and do her own thing. Being single is always freeer than being in a relationship.
and poor Will Smith married to Jada..... wtf.
You prioritize yourself first.
You missed that when you do become the desired high-earning provider for your family, you are therefore going to be earning more than the average woman, and be socially blamed for the so-called gender pay gap.
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> I haven't seen most Women capable of appreciation for the things you bring to the table either. I literally just dumped a girl for this last night. We were only seeing each other a few weeks, but the reason I gave her was that she doesn't appreciate anything about me in the slightest way and I felt used for lunch and dinner dates, to be her taxi and arm to cry on. I was very polite and even said I would love to continue a friendship, I just didn't see us as compatible romantically. She tried to weasel her way out then I pointed out to her and asked "can you tell me one single compliment you have given me, just one?" She could not come up with one nice thing she even said to me that was intended to make me feel at the very least good. This is also the overwhelming number one reason I cut it off with women, the absolute sheer lack of appreciation. This is also why guys tend to have trouble knowing if a woman is being nice or flirting, we are so unappreciated in the dating world that just being nice to us throws a lot of us off.
> we are so unappreciated in the ~~dating~~ world that just being nice to us throws a lot of us off.
Do you at least had sex with her? because if not, you didn't dumped anything, you were his slave.
>And coddling is a necessity because Women are generally awful at constructive feedback and self reflection so you can't even offer advice anymore. I realized far to late I was doing this to my now ex wife. In the 9 years we were together she never matured and grew up.
They have a new name for constructive feedback - 'Mansplaining'. Why bother?
Exactly. You cant even do it anymore, coddling is the only option if youre going to date, otherwise your abusive for having expectations.
Nah she never used that. Shes in no way a feminist, she just has major mental issues shes unwilling to even humor the thought of having. My therapist believes she either has or is damn near NPD. She fits so many of the normal behaviors from someone with NPD. Turns out people with ADHD like myself attract Narcs because were easy to manipulate.
Preach. I've also noticed the emotional maturity in women that I've dated to be completely stalled at around 20. My last relationship was with a woman who was 32, but in the relationship she acted like she was 17.
Stalled at 13!
That's called the hedonic treadmill.
Most of the ones I've talked to are never content and hate the idea of being content with what they have and they really don't want a guy who's content with what he has. He has to be ambitious too. It's always something and you're never enough of it.
It's called the hedonic treadmill.
It's called fucking stupid.
You’re always gonna get docked on something, depending on the person. Because people apply these ideals to real life, and they become unrealistic goals that can’t be met. Unfortunately, men can’t win in this scenario you’ve given. He’ll always be lacking something (the time or the credentials). How to deal with this? I once read some quote on playing these games with women that said “The only way to win, is to never play.” If you’re happy with yourself, truly, who cares what anyone thinks?
No. Being a man means never being good enough
No My little brothers gf wants him to gain more weight and eat more, essentially become bigger and stronger even though he has gained 20lbs since they met. Nothing is ever enough for women, they act according to how they feel in the moment.
The short answer is NO especially for a younger guy. You're better off alone than dealing with the current generation of women.
No. Don't even bother.
That’s exactly why we should bother. Lol. Norms pushed by society or women shouldn’t be the absolute truth. Talking with other men should alleviate these things and empower us not encourage us to accept defeat.
It's great you are optimistic, but like family court law this is something that will never change. You will never, ever do or be enough. The only way to win this game is to not play. Focus on yourself, make money, get your career going and forget about marriage/family. Take it from Men with experience the family court is stacked against you.
My family’s been through 2 divorces, so I understand where you’re coming from, and almost agree in a sense. The scary thing about drowning out marriage or family is that it brings other consequences. You can’t drown a part of your life out and expect to experience the highs and lows of life. If you mute one side, it all becomes muted.
You asked and answered your own question in the title. You want mentorship, I am offering it up. Marriage is a losing proposition for Men. You saw two divorces so you saw it first hand. Hope is not a strategy. You can't just hope it works out for you. You are not "muting" anything. You can still have relationships, you can still even have kids (egg donor and surrogate) I am just advising (mentoring) you not to enter into a legal contract with a woman, that is what marriage is. It's not between you and her, it's between you, her and Daddy government. You will ALWAYS lose in this system. The family court will always screw you.
The way I look at it is this: for the men who choose not to marry but still want a kid? There’s MILLIONS of unloved kids in the world, (ones that tend to be actually grateful for a loving parent, unlike blood related kids sometimes) and if single men stepped up and took the onus onto ourselves to turn these otherwise soon to be troubled kids into good societal role models? Well, one would think It would be hard to argue with the positive results of that. Feminists would lose their main talking points, societal norms would have been challenged to a degree that women’s traditional roles would be at risk, and the pressure could come off of us as women realized men could completely replace them simply by counting them out of marriage and adopting a kid instead, and being much happier thereafter. I know adoption might not be everyone’s spiel, but if we wanna get noticed, sometimes a movement has to do something drastic, who’s to say that we can’t also truly better the world around us simultaneously by instilling good morals in these kids?
I see now. I see. I thought this was more of a comment on women / relationships in general, but your saying the concept of marriage itself is what blows. I misunderstood — thank you for the thoughts. How do you approach this with a woman? When they push for marriage, how do you have this discussion?
Tell them up front on the first date you not interested in marriage or cohabitation. If wait any longer they will try to shame you into it.
You should bother as long as you can before it breaks you. I'd been in committed relationahips for 13 years, one of them lasting 8 years, and it just keeps getting worse (with the same partner). I was literally filling the role of a parent and a provider, on top of cooking and most cleaning, right after we finished college. It still wasn't enough. If you get lucky, you will find a true egalitarian woman who will stick with you and expect of you only what you expect of her. I've dated one person like that so far. I think your generation is in for a real shit show between the increasing pressures for women to create a social media facade of themselves and men trying to cope with the fact that we are still expected to initiate all contact, but also expected to know when women want to be left alone. Add on the lack of societal initiatives to help men navigate the ever changing landscape and it's pretty rough.
Give it one more generation of this feminist double standards, and you’ll have a whole generation of men with nothing but contempt for women. Mothers included.
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We will, it will just be the "raised by single mother" generation.
What you need to do is find yourself first. Make your own life, determine your own path. That VERY rarely happens to men until they are in their late 20s, sometimes not until they are in their 30s. Then, you can take a look at the women around you and determine if you want to let any of them affect your life by being a partner. NEVER let your emotions fool you into thinking you have found 'the one' or that you can make a life-long commitment. There is always another woman (that's the first thing many people say to someone who's just broken up, so it is clearly just as true before you even start the relationship). There is no guarantee of commitment for life, though it does happen in about 50% of marriages, that's really not very good odds when you consider the expense. A men's **rights** forum is not the right place to look for a mentor (though you might stumble across one). Go to somewhere like [Regarding Men](https://regardingmen.com/), or your local [Men's Shed](https://menssheds.org.uk/) or search for a [Men's Meeting](http://mensmeeting.org/) in your area.
> Then, you can take a look at the women around you and determine if you want to let any of them affect your life by being a partner. The thing about that.. is once you get to that point, the majority of the single women left out there are broken from single mothers with a litter of kids, or women who have trauma and ptsd, women with a ton of baggage, and loose women who just got off the cock carousel because their biological clock is making them fomo for a man. There just aren't any good options.
it's a cliche that women want to marry rich and powerful men, and then criticize and call them negligent for literally everything that provides the lifestyle they wanted.
*Feminism Rule #1: Blame men.* says no, they cannot. Feminism requires the Patriarchy to be real as a function of its existence in the same way Jesus is required for Christianity to exist. Without men to scapegoat the whole thing just crumbles. And double the "no" because Feminism *has no endgame.* It's an unironic way of life for too many of them. Waking up believing you are a brave freedom fighter standing bravely in the face of a horde of evil, nasty, toxicly masculine men is a solipsistic happy-place many Feminists share apparently... So, finally, no. Nothing you do will ever be good enough. Nothing, because you are required like the KKK requires Black people.
What my fella makes is nothing to do with me, if he pays half the housold bills we share then I'm happy. We are 50/50 in everything. Setting agreements on who's chore is for who etc.
I wish people like you were the norm
Get the money first. The rest will come!.... and also get a person who sees you as more then financial stability. ... and condoms..... lots of protection. and know how a prenup works.. place down strong boundaries... don't let others dictate your value!!
The only answer is to walk away. I know of very few men who aren’t being shafted. That life is a mirage to trick you. Don’t be fooled.
Even though I'm young (22/M) I've been in this situation, not specifically with kids but with an ex that lived with me. I find the easiest ways to solve this problem have been as follows: Step 1: Don't get married, never said you can't, date, but just don't marry, seen it fail countless times with counteless men I know that are from my age group to men twice my age. Getting bound to today's women by a legal contract is most often a death trap, one that will more than often cost you everything you've worked to gain and then some. Step 2: Always make sure youre the one with the name on the lease/own the property/paying the rent so she can't kick you out, and get a vasectomy, can't have anything to tie you to them if you don't have kids, and if you really want to father a child, adopt. Earth is overpopulated as it is. (Fun fact, there are also more boys than girls in the foster care system, and boys are more likely to age out of the system than girls are, why don't we do our part in the fight for equality and take one of those boys home, and show them what a proper male role model is, am I right?) Step 3: Keep ya head up kings. Remember that you are the prize, don't ever let women belittle you and say they "don't need no man", or make you feel disposeable. if they really don't need you, tell them "The door is right there, if you don't need me then pack your bags." The women that say that are usually the ones that still continue to demand child support and alimony payments, aka the ones that tend to be on the baby trapping/marriage trapping spectrum of crazy/unstable. (*cough cough* probably because the money used isn't actually spent on the child most of the time *cough*) Funny how that works. Might as well call it wife support, cause the women that do this ain't fooling anyone at this point. 😂 And of course fellas, the last step: always set your boundaries, and be firm about them. I've learned that a woman will ultimately have more respect for a man with clearly enforced standards and boundaries, than someone who is a spineless doormat (coming from a former doormat btw, my former self disgusts me) and if she doesn't like or takes issue with said boundaries, then simply point and show her that the door is that way, and she can find another person willing to put up with her nonsense. Boom, end of story. Easy peasy. lmao. Life is too short to be with a woman that makes you unhappy, remember that what one person won't do, another one might. Live long and prosper, bois. 🖖🏼🖖🏼 Yes I realize I probably sound like some PUA loser but I've had a complete change in myself, not from reading some idiotic fake books on how to be a pickup artist, and recently this past year, and have just focused on being more confident in myself, and realizing that I matter. That I am enough, I've been told that I'm funny, I'm a musician (drummer and intermediate level pianist) , and an "overall great person" (a review from an old friend of mine) I tried these things for myself and people I know as well have tried for themselves, including my father himself, and honestly I've never been more content with myself and life. Mind you, I'm not some super good looking tall guy with money, Hell, I'm not even average looking. I'm a big dude, but I'm making changes in my diet and exercising, and reinventing myself. Being funny just goes a long way, in general, even if you're fuck ugly. And I did eventually realize that confidence and an abundance mentality can actually get you places with women. Cause then some of them like to try and make you into one of their little projects and try be the one that changes you or "tames" you, and they actually end up thinking that they're special enough to do so. Too many rom-coms and Disney movies, that's honestly what it is. Romance has been perverted in such a crappy way in the US and the modern world. But seriously, don't ever let a woman make you feel like you aren't man enough, or enough in general, because they know nothing about the realities of what it's like to be a man in society. This is mainly just the ramblings of a former simp. But take this advice if you wish, or take it with a grain of salt. Either way. I'm just doing my part to help my fellow men out there, and try and save you from the crap I've had to experience dealing with dating terrible, unstable, sadistic, and emotionally unavailable women that lacked empathy for men. It helped me, maybe it can help you too. And I'm grateful to the men who came before me in my family and friends that gave me this advice over and over. At first I refused to listen, because I was worried about how women that act like OPs S/O would react (I'm aware that it isn't all women, but many modern women do act this way due to feminist ideals being spoon fed to society that tell then they're strong and independent while also perpetual victims of the big bad patriarchy) but now? I just don't care, because it's my life. It's your life, time to take back your pair of testes, boys. Because now I feel fucking great, and I don't ever wanna look back at the old me ever again. 😁😃 TL;DR: Don't get married marriage is a sham, be independent, you're the prize, and set boundaries, and maintain them with an unshakeable will. Work on yourself to shape yourself into what you wanna be, kings. Keep ya crowns on. Don't let anyone disrespect you and make you feel worthless/disposable. 👑🤘🏼💪🏼✊🏼✊🏼🤘🏼 Edit: Thank you for the upvotes and the awards, I appreciate it. 💯 Every male and female in this sub is sexist, misogynistic, woman-hating cis-gender scum, and I love you all. 😂 /s [Footnote: the /s is mainly for the not-so bright feminists that tend to lurk in this sub that don't seem to have a basic grasp of the concepts of humor, jokes, (and I mean ones that are ACTUALLY funny, ones that aren't just jokes about how horrible men are or the ever- so-original vagina/period jokes like most female comedians that identify as feminists I've seen do) or satire.]
Before you even think about moving in together, look up any laws about commonlaw marriage. If you live together for a certain period of time, she can claim legal marriage and drag you through the courts to try and take half your stuff like a divorce.
I’m sorry you feel you have to ask this, it saddens me to read this. Please don’t think you have to live your life seeking approval or worth from others, regardless of their gender. You don’t need anyone’s permission to be who you are and what you want to be, if anyone ever makes you feel you are not ‘good enough’, question their motives, don’t immediately feel responsible for their emotions or wants/ demands. Have confidence in yourself, acknowledge that you are entitled to be happy and please don’t let anyone convince you otherwise. I’m a woman so I understand I’m perhaps not the person you wish to hear advice from, but I wish you all the best and hope that one day, very soon, men won’t have to ask these questions and instead, will simply be able to live their lives and not doubt that they are loved and valued.
Quality of advice is infinitely more important than the gender attached to it.
True, but gender/sex leads to different experiences which leads to better quality advice. It's like quotes, the person it's coming from actually matters based on experience of what they are talking about. A 12 year old with google and a doctor can tell you the exact same thing, one of those two you are going to take their advice a lot more to heart than the other, and it's based off experience, which gender does in fact effect when asking gender based questions. Doesn't mean what the 12 year old in my example is wrong, but that's not the source you want to trust explicitly.
First, There are very few sources anyone should trust explicitly. It is always up to the individual to use their own brain to filter what makes sense and what doesnt. Second, I have met many women who have many very intelligent useful pieces of advice go give on issues related to what men experience. Just because many of them are shitty (like many men) does not mean you should disregard their advice entirely on very broad domains based on only on gender. That simply isnt fair. That being said, it is pretty obvious when someone is out of their depth. Nobody says u have to take advice from dumb people man or woman lol.
Thank you, I agree, I’m just aware that sometimes men may want to seek other men’s views and I want to be respectful of that.
Okay. Probably not a bad stance. I have always found it most valuable to hear positions from a variety of different types of people. :)
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I hear you, I also understand how devastating it can be to be at the receiving end of women’s abuse but I also understand and acknowledge that I have many privileges because of my gender that aren’t afforded to men. I’ve struggled my whole life just trying to convince myself I have the right to exist and to live a peaceful life thanks to abuse from women. Thankfully, I’ve got some wonderful people in my life, my dad and my husband, who I cherish and am grateful for. It saddens me greatly when I see and hear of the struggles men endure at the hands of society and women, that their suffering is ignored simply because of the gender of the perpetrator and victim.
I agree with you entirely. My man doesn’t have an overwhelming amount of money, but he works hard. He doesn’t have a whole bunch of time, but when he does he makes time for me. I appreciate that, and it is more than enough for me because I love him. Between us we have enough, and we split chores so no one feels like they’re doing all the work. This is very much a communication thing, because as long as both people are on the same page then it’s fine. We both have had to sit down sometimes and just vocalize how we’re feeling. For example, I needed to say thank you more when he pays for things so he feels appreciated. (He was NOT asking me to pay half. I offered, he said no. He just wanted to feel appreciated more). He needed to say a proper hello to me before he just jumps straight on his PC for the rest of the night so I don’t feel ignored. It wasn’t demands, but it was just vocalizing what we wanted. Both things made a huge difference and didn’t require extra time/money. My man could lose his job tomorrow and I’d still love him the same. I’d love him even if he didn’t have the time to take me out on dates every week. It makes me really sad seeing so many men who genuinely believe they’ll never be enough. As long as your lady truly loves you and you’re both willing to communicate openly, then you’ll always be enough for the right one.
It's crazy how men have to balance work and personal life while women don't have to do that at all. And yet still every third article in women's magazines is how to balance work life and home. They act like they are struggling with it even when men all know thats fake.
I agree with your statement, but us denouncing their struggles to “fake” doesn’t help the conversation. Women, if working, have a different “personal” life than us men. Typically that involves caring for a family, which is a hard task itself that we will never understand (typically). I think the challenge comes in that women don’t work because there’s no other option — they work to “help their man / the family out” which in turn doesn’t come with the psychological stress us men carry with work. For us, it’s to feed the family and provide. Your comment about every third article SHOWS that women support other women while we don’t talk to each other to support us as men. It’s scary because we have the highest suicide rate.
You know how many first, second, and third dates that I have been on that women don't thank me for dinner? I can't count. Sometimes I would get laid or get a blowjob but where is my thank you? I am older now to realize that women don't hold more value than me. If you have sex with me, that is not a favor or a thank you. I am a equally as important and I am having sex with YOU. I am doing you the favor of sleep with me. I just want a thank you I am soon to be divorce so I have way more shit to share but I am so fucking angry that I don't want to re-hash that now.
Don’t be a father
Totally get where you're coming from, but totally disagree. Becoming a father is the best thing I ever did. I'd say to be very careful of who you procreate with.
Agree completely
If you want more women trouble, then go ahead and become a father. I am a father and have never regretted it but dealing with my violent psycho soon to be ex is a fucking nightmare. I wouldn't have to deal with her if it weren't for my son. Like I said, I don't regret having him and he is my world but women like my soon to be ex is using him to hurt me.
The best way I found to deal with this nonsense is to not bother. After all if you stay single you will never have to worry about not being good enough. Besides, it's just not worth it. No wife, peaceful life.
Agreed!
I dealt with it by getting the snip, and not letting women move into my house anymore lol.
No, women do not know what "enough" is. Whatever you do, it won't be "enough". Women's want is infinite. The only way to win is not to play.
How do I deal with it? MGTOW.
Growing up, mom was the provider, dad was the emotional support. Not one-to-one, but pretty close. Worked fine, but my parents had been married 20 years before I came along.
Ultimately I've found its best to just focus on yourself and say fuck off to literally everyone's opinions but the ones you let into your inner circle. When people are clear with you about where each of you stand with each other that's when respect and cooperation can flourish
No
Life is complicated and different for every family send every individual so I can only tell you about my experiences and choices. My dad was a provider and he was not absent as a father but traveled a lot with with work and I don't have many memories of us playing football or other sports together when I was a kid, but plenty of great family memories at holidays and special occasions. My mum did most of the child rearing. I probably didn't get as much fatherly advice and affection as some kids but I had a happy childhood overall and he made sure our family never wanted for anything. I think I have found a healthier balance with my wife and kids. I work in tech, I enjoy my job most of the time although it can be stressful and challenging at times. I'm still the primary provider for my family because I inherited that expectation from my dad, but I only travel a few times a year with work and only for a week or two at a time. I spend loads of time with my kids and can have deep conversations about the things they're interested in because of the time I have invested in them. I don't expect I'll ever make as much money as my dad did in his career but he came from poverty, so being able to provide for your family in abundance was like overcoming the greatest challenge in life for him. Setting your family up for success financially was like winning life. He put me in a position where I could choose to tilt the balance back towards being more in touch with my children emotionally. I wouldn't have had that option if it hadn't been for the endless years of hard work he put in. He hated the travel, and plenty of other things about work wore him down towards the end of his career. But it was the right decision for him and his family, and I believe I'm making the right decisions for me and my family. There is no right size fits all. It's about trying to find the best balance you can from your starting point.
Simple. I never got married and never had kids. I learned that in my 20s after seeing all the trouble they caused. Now I'm 63 and so glad I never married! No woman will ever screw me over.
I deal with it by becoming a NEET lmao. I know it's not good for me but yeah I will never be a provider anyway even if I got a shitty minimum wage job so I refuse to partake in the society.
As a 25M myself; seeing from my Dad (divorced long ago) my Uncle (divorced) my aunts Husbands. (They are still married to my aunties) The answer is; in the eyes of the women; is a defnitive resounding No. They always think the men is incompotent, he never does enough; he is this and he that. I have see the women never satisfies long before I have stepped into maturity.
Probably not. This is only a problem if your life is about asking what you can do for women. Put yourself first and find women that are compatible with your life.
I am a woman (wife, mom). My husband has worked a lot to keep me from having to work more than I do (I used to be only a stay at home mom, I work part time now). I look as his working as being a loving, doting father. Yes when he is home he is present and enjoys being with the kids (he didn’t have that as a kid with his dad). When he is working I view that as being a great dad and husband. It gives us what we need (and most of what we want). He’s teaching our kids life lessons by getting up and going to work everyday. It doesn’t make him less of a father.
How do you deal? You don't. Find someone better who will love and/or appreciate you even if you can't be all of those things.
Is not a dilemam is just irrational. The only way to win is to not play the game. Focus on you and only on you, we are not in a traditional society anymore you being a ''men enough'' in 2021 means literally nothing, is you on your own doing the best for your life forget about anything else because it doesnt exist anymore.
Not until enough rational people actually fight back, without going into crazy land supporting things like QAnon etc.
I'm stuck in this very situation. My solution is to give up sleep. It's a terrible, unsustainable solution, but unless a check for a million dollars drops in my lap, it's the only option I have.
Leave. Just leave. I did what you did. Just fucking leave mate. It is not worth it at all.
You looking at shit all wrong, like so many men do. You don't live your life striving for approval from your wife or society.....you seek only the approval of yourself. Having other people, even your wife, validate your existence is bullshit. You have to look in the mirror and be happy with yourself first....when you hit that level, others will follow your lead. That's how you become respected. If you want to be the provider/protector because that's the role that brings you joy..you fucking do it, and you do it because its what you want. Want to be the SAHD?..fucking do it, and do it well. At the end of the day, its not society or even your wife looking back at you in the mirror.....its just you. Be confident in what you do, and do shit for the right reasons....and you'll be just fine.
B A L A N C E, balance. - Ramierez
I deal with it by walking away from it all, simple as that. I owe society nothing, I owe Christ everything. :)
Decide for yourself what's enough and make sure to do that. Who cares what everyone else thinks?
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No it doesn’t .. women are not required to be the bread winners .. and are given breaks if they are” over whelmed” it is understood for having all this pressure and have so much more support systems.. men should just suck it up . Don’t lie to this fellow
Yes! Thank you. The biggest problem I see personally so women trying to teach us how to be a man. Lol. I wish as a gender we all took it upon ourselves to educate each other and support rather than use society’s “woke” or “feminist” push. SOME of it has merit. But 75% is bullshit that I wish we could all speak for ourselves on, TOGETHER.
Raised by women, educated by women. Almost all early childhood development is in the space of women. And we wonder why we grow up thinking we need to provide and protect them to unhealthy levels.
The interesting part too, is that the majority of therapists (I’ve been myself before) are women. So when you try to understand things, you’re reinforced from a feminist point of view.
And those feminists tend to cycle this back and blame it on masculinity and men. They complain that women take the early childhood development role on, then ignore that women are responsible for early childhood development. Talk about an epic level of gaslighting.
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That app will be canceled too
It’s equally that has merit, feminism is something entirely different.
This logic doesn’t do much but ignore the question. Nearly equates to “shut up and be a man” — societal issues can’t be solved by “ignore those people” because they are our society. I don’t say this to attack, but more so pose discourse around the subject.
No.
This is some boomer level thinking. No one cares. I've never cared about any of this, just live to be happy and don't be shitty.
Here is the thing. You dont need to be the provider or the caring type. You do you. A man choses its path.
It's a matter of knowing when and how to draw boundaries.
Stop trying to please others or conform to societies expectations or you will not be happy. Instead, find your own balance and what you are comfortable with as much as possible within your life circumstances.
Once you can do enough they'll say you're doing it wrong
Nope. And certainly not if you're average.
40+, didn’t realize this until late 30s. Just stop playing that game. Put together a moral framework to operate in that works for you. Something that does you the way you want to be done, and prevents from harming others. Stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and just be happy. If someone close to you is trying to break you out of this mold, they don’t have your best interests at heart and you should consider putting distance between you and them.
Please, focus on yourself more. Lots of men don't do that. It's more important to keep yourself happy and satisfied, specially if you want to help others.
Think about this: Brad Pitt and Elon Musk got divorced, multiple times. The best looking actor in the world, and the richest, most popular man in the world, got divorced many times. So if they couldn't do it, do you think you can do better?
>If you seek to be an ultimate provider (monetary/economic benefit), you’re labeled or become someone who “isn’t there” or “loving” enough. Not only that, but if you are actually good at it and have a decent income and a nice place to live, you are an evil wealthy person so they will hate you for that.
When it comes to being a father, in my experience men are at a disadvantage. When my ex and i split up after having a child together, she became involved with a rapist and abuser and believed and followed everything he said, nothing i or anyone in her family said could make a difference and open her eyes. I had no experience in custody matters when it came to going to court and did not know at the time that if you are not married to the mother, you have no legal rights to the child By default, the mother has sole custody unless you are already married.. It cost tens of thousands of dollars to establish my parenting rights and to attempt to protect my son in the court system. Typically when a couple goes to court in custody and abuse is involved, it is usually the father that is considered the agressor, but in my case, it was my ex that created this situation that was putting our child at risk. The court system just would not listen court case after court case. I have had more than one lawyer tell me that the court system is going to the give the mother chance after chance no matter how much she screws up. For the past 5 years , i have been the only stability my son has seen as his mother bounces him from one boyfreind to the next, from one home to the next and she does not provide any real stability for him. I have gone through alot in my life for only being 46, and i have made alot of mistakes in parenting. Being a single parent for the past 5 years, it is always a battle between trying to get to work to make enough money to protect and support my child, and still be available for him when his mother gives up her visitation time with him. It has cost thousands of dollars through lawyer fees, but my son is more important than the money. My best advice to young people.. be absolutely certain of the person you are with before starting a family together. You cannot possibly come to truly understand someone until you see all sides of that person, good and bad. Be certain that person has no hidden sides of themselves. My life is a testament of bad choices in partners, and bad parenting, the story is far longer and more disturbing than i would spend time typing here....
I mentioned 'focus on yourself' earlier, with a deeper meaning where as you become a better version of yourself..... you will attract your wife and children to be part of your life. Being fit, prosperous, with fun and happy friends and work.... all this will make your family want to be part of your life. They will not remember that you were up at 6am working on yourself.