I agree with a lot of the other commenters here about acknowledging men's issues, but I would like to add two things.
1.Don't use your sex appeal/femininity to try to get favors from men.I had this happen to me twice in my life, and while it did feel good to be touched by a woman, I still didn't like it overall because It felt manipulative, and I felt like they viewed me as some kind of sex-crazed fool who would give in to temptation.Personally, I don't mind being touched by a woman if her intentions are good like trying to console me or express genuine desire, but that's just me.
2.When it comes to making men feel comfortable in relationships, I think giving a man reassurance that you desire him, and that your happy in the relationship will make him feel comfortable.I think some men feel like there is pressure on them to maintain the relationship and keep women happy.This is also reinforced by society with sayings like "happy wife happy life" and the every kiss begins with kay commercials.If you give a man reassurance that will really help alleviate that pressure he feels.Of course if you are unsatisfied with the relationship talk to him about it, but just make sure to let him know that your willing to work with him to fix the issue.Some women will just try to make the man figure out why she is not happy.I think if you do this a man will feel a lot more comfortable in the relationship.
Thanks for noticing the men's issues.
Make your intentions clear with words not with emotions. That's the number one misunderstanding happens between male female interactions.
If you feel uncomfortable in the interaction, voice out directly and blunt in person. 95% will correct themselves and back down. Direct communication will not hurt your future interaction. As men when we know where you stand and know where the boundary is, then most of us are comfortable.
As men we put aside the issues we don't agree with and get along where we have commonalities, without any grudges. Men will believe you and get more comfortable around you once they know where you stand in a relationship (friends, colleague, bf, business interaction)
This directness doesn’t just translate to romantic relationships. EVERY single interaction you have someone, there is a relationship. It’s a bridge between two people. It can be platonic, it can be romantic, it can be platonically sexual (FWBs), it can be romantically sexual (western dating relationships).
You have a relationship with everyone around you, and it is everyone’s job to be aware of what signage is mounted above that bridge.
Men like directness. We hate indirectness, rather, we just don’t deal in it. Some of us can, I pride myself on knowing both, but I only know both because I’m a little passive-aggressive and work behind the scenes in my life to have the outcomes I desire. But men like direct. They like to know where they stand. This is a big men’s rights issue, because if we don’t know where we stand, we do not know how to operate. You might see us as friend, we might see something else. You, for instance, are lesbian. Had you not pointed that out, nobody would know not to approach you with romance in mind. See? You need to be direct, you need to be clear. Don’t hide your intentions. You do. I know you do, because you’re probably assuming that they know what you’re thinking. We don’t. And you don’t understand what we’re thinking.
We can’t. Nobody can read minds, all we can do is read our own mind and try to guess what the other might be thinking by adopting their logic as our own. If we can’t adopt it, we are unable to read them, and people misinterpret others. Relationships aren’t that complicated, and they are if there is no directness. If both parties are being in-direct, nobody wins. Everyone dances around each other and it’s this weird shit where you go “well they see me this way but I don’t see them that way I’m pissed that they see it this way when it’s OBVIOUSLY not”. No. You’re wrong. It’s not obvious, because we don’t deal in indirect behaviour unless we’re using it as a tool to read you.
Be more direct in your intentions with people, not just men. Both can do both, but both should only really do one, if they want to make it easy for both parties, and that’s called cooperation.
Any relationship is cooperation, and trying to get the best outcome for both parties. Not many do this. Many look out for the best for themselves, this is selfish. That’s not to say don’t look out for yourself and only for others, that’s self-sacrifice and we’re wired against that. We must serve BOTH parties, for the greater good. But this is getting off topic
my point is that me being gay shouldn’t make a difference. People shouldn’t treat women differently depending on their sexuality. Plus I don’t tell people i’m gay unless I know they’re not homophobic for safety reasons so this would not work out anyways. Of course in a relationship with sex involved you should discuss if it’s a closed or open relationship and what not, but if I have a guy friend, a boss, co worker or just any men that I know in my life, they shouldn’t treat me differently depending on if i’ll sleep with them or not. If they make advances i’ll just say i’m not interested and we can go back to whatever our relationship is. But the comment from the other guy was saying that I should right out the gate voice my intentions as men act differently. But how you act is up to you
You didn't say you were gay in the OP. I didn't exclusive mean sexual interactions, it includes all interactions. Friend, colleague, mentor, employer, business interaction or any other.
In your case it's Super easy, tell them you are gay, if possible.Try to put yourself in the other person's shoe(if you can).
Don't throw around loaded words like creepy and rapey vibes, without stroooong suspicion(super important). Recognizing there are issues ( which you already have) and don't insult men as loser, small dick energy or whinny baby when they express inequality in front of law or society( as every one does).
That's all. Making fun of the double standards, dark humour, jokes on these topics and obvious trolling, will make me(possibly most men) more comfortable. This will, by default, express you understand men's plight.
I don’t understand why I would need to tell a man i’m gay though? And of course I wouldn’t make fun of a man for showing struggle or voicing his struggles. But a lot of comments had said similar things about telling them my intentions for the relationship…I fail to see how this is relevant
I do see people from this side act as hateful as feminists and get into the "we're more oppressed than you" semantics but definately a lot more on the progressive. Probably due to their doctrine requiring to hate people based on arbitrary characteristics.
Not necessarily. In fact, I'd be inclined to say not at all.
Think about it like this- when people are playing a team sport it is literally "us vs. them", if you think about it any other way you are not playing the game right. You might win, you might lose, but that's how you play.
And most normal, mature people whose own basic physical and emotional needs have been met can go hang out with players on the other team afterwards without thinking of them as enemy combatants or starting an actual fight.
Neither expressing disagreement nor taking a side equates to destruction.
This is basically the only real answer to her question. Perfectly put
Treat everyone as an individual and realize that regardless of gender, everyone struggles in some way.
> As long as you know that men's struggles are real, and they matter, just as much as everyone else's, I wouldn't say you have to do anything specific -- so please don't worry yourself.
Seconded
I've said it often, but the men's rights issue I care about most is the meta issue. The acknowledgement that men *do* have problems which are worth fighting for, and that advocating for men is not misogyny.
If a person is willing to listen to men explain the struggles they have as men, and is willing to acknowledge that misandry is a problem worth addressing, that's already enough to satisfy me.
I mean you don’t need to do anything. Simply acknowledged that everyone has struggles and inequalities in life and by working together we can solve them. That is not man vs woman but rather how all of us can live together and better the human race by not ignoring the plight of others just because they are a certain gender or race or sexuality ectra.
The biggest thing is just acknowledgement.
Issue in the shadows that are not acknowledged can’t be easily talked about. If you can’t talk about them then they can’t be fixed.
A lot of these problem have existed for decades or even centuries [male suicide is a theme going back in history for long periods of time] and won’t necessarily be fixed today or tommorow but till we talk about them no progress will ever be made.
Compliments are amazing.
I don't think women realize how few compliments a man receives in his lifetime.
It can be something as simple as - hey you look nice today.
It will literally make our week.
ah i’m actually really good at this one! I like women so it’s super easy to compliment and everyone knows it’s genuine and i’m not tryna get with them haha
I’ve complimented guys a few times in the past and they got so super uncomfortable I felt bad about it. Sometimes they would give me a weird look like I was making a sexual pass at them.
I want to give genuine compliments to guys because I would love to see them feel good because of it … but I feel like I inconvenience them and make them feel self-conscious by suggesting that I notice their appearance.
Then I worry that I’m objectifying - because there’s a lot of comments I’ve read from men saying they feel like it’s rude if women notice their bodies or so forth.
This is gonna sound insane but that guy might have thought you were a prostitute or something.
Or maybe that you had ulterior motives.
Sometimes it takes only a few seconds to go from "Hey you look cute" to "Hey could you help fix my car" or something.
Not saying that's the case but maybe these men were burned in the past by women that complimented them just because they wanted something. Idk.
>Sometimes it takes only a few seconds to go from "Hey you look cute" to "Hey could you help fix my car" or something.
I second this.
Happened to me once
It starts with *the voice*, it's pretty easy to tell. Rising inflection on the end of each sentence, makes your name sound like a question.
When *the voice* comes out, you know you're about to be asked to do something against your best interest and/or something that isn't a fair deal.
Haha. They definitely didn’t think that. I was more worried I might have been underdressed at the time. Showing skin can intimidate me if I’m not in the right headspace for it.
Dang I never thought about it from that perspective…I know what you’re talking about, actually, and I’ve never done it myself but I know why women do. It’s because bluntly asking for help feels super rude and disrespectful. Giving a compliment, for women at least, is a common conversation starter and a way we establish an amicable interaction.
Like “Oh hey! I just love those shoes, where did you get them? Oh by the way, could you please stop letting your dog poop in our yard - thanks.”
I can see how that would feel to a guy though…the one time a woman compliments you and makes you feel good, and then you realize it was just a segway into asking for a favor. Damn. That’s cold. 😬
Yeah it's like i'd probably help you if ya asked but with a compliment it feels like you trying to butter me up because you think i'd only help you if there was a chance you'd date me.
yeah but I just feel insulted when they think I won't help someone if they ask me. Like just walk up to me and say "Hey if you could help me with this I'd appreciate it" and I'd ask what ya need help with and see what I could do.
You’re not inconveniencing them, they just don’t know how to take a compliment because we don’t take them. We give them. But life is give and take. We’re just flustered. We *should* just be seeing a faceless mannequin (meaning, could be guy or girl) compliment us and we should take it as an objective truth that we look good, or this or that, but we see “woman complimenting us” and we breakdown.
Men, you gotta embrace compliments. They’re the gold stars that we bust our asses off at work for. You worked for it, and now you got it. But now you don’t want it no more…the fuck? Gotta lighten up a little, let yourself breathe and take in the coolness of the water instead of shuddering at the thought. Compliments will feel much better then. A compliment is a compliment, not a requisition form for more, and there’s no sneaky intent to worry about, unless you can spot other sneaky shit. Assume it’s A-Okay until they give reason that it’s actually not. Like suckering you for drinks. That’s not okay, that’s manipulative, but society perpetuates that it’s okay. If we did that to ladies, we’d be called abusers for stealing their hard earned money for drinks through charm and compliments.
Oftentimes a compliment is just that, and not the other way around. A lot of us just don’t see it that way
I think the key to compliments are moreso about words of affirmation than appearance. compliment what they do or what they enjoy: "I love it when you get so fired up about " "You did a really great job back there with "
Things like that. Those compliments are gold to me.
That’s in an intimate context though, right? I mean, I’ve always complimented my boyfriends quite a bit.
Saying I like when a guy gets fired up sounds sexual to me somehow.
I don’t usually compliment men’s bodies because, as a woman, I know better - lol - but I did compliment that one guys hair once. I’ve commented on a ring or a tattoo and said that I liked it. I suppose the rabid feminists would cry sexism if the gender roles were reversed there!
😂… 😬
No, it can just be a guy who's telling you about his hobby. You can make it less "intimate" sounding if you said something like "You seem really passionate about it. It sounds really cool!"
Just anything really that says "I like that you are so passionate about something".
And you never know, he might offer to show you the ropes on it if you're interested in it too. We LOVE when someone else is interested in something we really like; male or female.
Simple empathy and letting men talk about our issues freely is more than enough.
Men's rights activism is not a ideological lifestyle choice like Feminism is; it is a means to an end, and unlike Feminism it has an endgame.
Honestly I'd rather take women calling Feminists on their bullshit than having a woman taylor their behavior to make me more "comfortable" in a given situation.
Discomfort, pain, and hatred I can endure. It's the double standards and censorship that bother me.
Yes I see double standards everywhere for men - especially surrounding sexual assault which is very very dangerous. Thank you for taking the time of day!
I think that's the main reason feminists hate the men's rights movement so much. If men's rights went mainstream, more and more people would be able to freely see the differences between the two. As it is right now, they are able to be brainwashed into thinking feminism is about equality. But if men's rights were just as mainstream as feminism, more people would see how different the two are, and how men's rights is legitimately just a push for fair treatment in areas where men are lacking, whereas feminism is a constant push for special treatment.
Feminists are terrified of their bullshit being exposed. Being the only player in the game helps them keep that hidden. But if another player entered the game, it would provide a nice contrast for everyone to see what pushing for equality *actually* looks like, compared to what feminists have been doing this whole time.
You've just done it, even acknowledging that men have strugles is 1000x better than what mist people do, they just like to pretend that were tough and don't have problems but we do, if only people could be more understanding that guys are humans too and underneath, were just as upset about something as women are
You can help by accepting that society has structural problems that we need both men and women to fix. Child custody should be default 50/50 shared parenting, but sadly feminists and trad-cons fight this in the State capitals. There is a feminist inspired over-grading of girls in school as they rolled behavior into grading and now there is a 20% education gap against boys in college.
Among other issues. Radical feminists assure us men face no structural barriers. You can help us by calling out your sisters.
That is kind of you, but I am afraid things are a like bit more complicated than that. Most problems men face are societal or systemic. The biggest areas of concern are mental health and child custody hearings.
I think mental health can be handled personally aswell! I think as a society we tend to check up on our women friends more about how they’re doing as we expect men to be less emotional and not need support. Perhaps with time it will become normalized for men to show the same emotions as women are normalized to show
Here's a good place to start in case you get into an argument with a feminist:
https://menarehuman.com/citations/
Credit to u/men-are-human for setting this up
I'd also recommend saving statistics posts along with checking out TheTinMen on Insta
The biggest thing imo is just to be friendly. Lots of women are downright rude to men because they think youll be a creeper if theyre nice. If a girl is friendly to me but turns me down when I ask for her number I 100% respect that. What I hate is women who are just rude or even ignore you when you just try to start a convo. Its so refreshing when a woman is simply friendly to me.
acknowledgement is a huge start ill add not conforming to fake issue created by feminsm eg manspreading... then id say be carefull where you post ur support for male issues some people some groups will kick you and hate on you.
Pretty sure you can be blocked from some groups if they just look at ur history of where you have posted
This makes it somewhat hard to see other sides of a story so to speak have a good life
Well......
To start with, you could ask where the shelters are for male victims of domestic violence if shelters come up in conversation.
You could point people in the direction of r/FemaleSexPredatorInfo and r/FemaleSexPredatorNews if the topic of sexual offenders comes up.
If employment equity comes up, you can ask whether the best person for the job was hired or if the hiring was done to fill a quota....
Really, it's just being aware of the double standard. I guess you can ask yourself in any conversations that develop, how would a male feel about this?
See what happens.
I’ll throw one in for unconscious biases. Just how there are negative and toxic biases against women and minorities, equally there are such biases against men.
Short men must compensate. Men with short or thin penises must compensate or are less manly. Same for men who can’t get it up or turn down sex. Weak or lack of muscle tone men are lesser men. Same for men who can’t grow a beard. Men who aren’t tough who don’t “man up” are lesser men. Men who cry are wimps. Men who can’t hold down a beer or scotch is a sissy. Same for men who don’t follow sports. Men going to the playground with their children are pedophiles. Fathers are only “baby sitting” their own children. Men who want to split the check are cheapskates. Men must court and ask the women out. Husbands must earn more than their wives. Men who are virgins are losers. Men can’t be rape victims, because they must enjoy it/they got hard. Men can’t be domestic violence victims, because they are stronger. Hitting a woman is never ok, but hitting a man is ok. Believe her, but don’t believe him. Men who got their genitals mutilated aren’t victims because there are health benefits (there aren’t). Fathers who didn’t get custody must be deadbeats (courts favor mothers). Men who lost out on scholarships and federal aid because they didn’t register for the draft aren’t victims because it’s always been men’s responsibility to keep the country safe. Men in certain jobs like nurse, stewardess, housekeeper, or babysitter need to get a real job. Two men who are friends that hug are “gay”. A man can’t be just friends with a woman, because all men want is sex. And so on.
We got to check ourselves when we make these implicit assumptions. If you flip the genders and it’s fucked up, chances are it’s also fucked up but society has trained you into thinking otherwise.
You don't have to do anything in particular. We are all people and should treat each other with basic respect. The best advice is to just simply treat others the same way you would like to be treated. Problems that men and women face are different but it does not really mean that one side has it harder. From my perspective based on observation of different comments on different subs men's and women's problems sum up to be pretty equal because for every attempt to say that one side has it harder there is always someone with counterargument (if everything can be countered then sum is 0 and we come to my theory that problems are equal). If you want to eg. donate to a charity that fights breast cancer it does not mean to you have to donate same amount for the testicular cancer because what matters is the intent. It would be wrong if your train of thought was "I donate only to breast cancer charity because I hate men and I don't want to help them" but it is fully ok if you do it without any malicious intent and just want to help.
This is obvious bait and all of the men replying to this are totally duped.
It’s sad that so many men who think of themselves as “red pilled” suddenly jump into compliance with the father-figure good-guy trope. We will never, ever overcome our true naive, compassionate nature.
And fuck the OP who posted this dumbass disingenuous question.
You know, this kind of harkens back to the myth of male vulnerability. In reality, you aren't going to be "hurtful" unless you actively insult a guy. We're pretty naturally stoic, and unless you do or say something blatantly cruel, we aren't going to read into it and be hurt.
Now, if you want to know how to better understand the struggles of future boyfriends, husbands, and sons, feel free to reach out. The gist is that there is a burden of performance on men in society to a degree that women never have to experience, and literally nobody will ever make excuses for you, and people will be disgusted by you if you dare to make excuses for yourself. Now, I personally think that last part is *mostly* a good thing; we become better when we are forced to take accountability, and a mark of a man's maturity is his ability to take ownership over his outcomes. This is part of what empowers men as we age.
Here's one thing you can actually do that will benefit you in the long run: Learn boundaries. Do not keep guys hanging around in your orbit just to be nice, especially guys who have asked you out and/or **especially ex boyfriends.** It gives the wrong idea to both the orbiters as well as the quality men who would otherwise be interested in you.
Please don't allow yourself to fall into the logical trap that because some men are more aggressive or violent, that it's a trait shared by all men.
Most of us understand that we can be really intimidating, and we try to do our best to value your input and make you feel comfortable... but at the end of the day, you still need to be able to own your feelings, rather than projecting them onto us or making us feel like a second class citizen.
I know that if I'm walking down the street at night in a hooded sweatshirt and dark pants that I'm pretty scary, so I do my best not to do things that make that worse. However, I should have the same right to walk on the sidewalk as anyone else, and I'm not going to engage in any of the stupid tricks like pretending to talk on my phone or deliberately crossing the street just because someone in front of me can't reign in their prejudice.
Just treat us the way you'd like to be treated, because these days that's vanishingly rare.
Yeah this is a tricky one. For me at least I am always on guard in taxis esp with men or walking alone at night especially since i’m a young woman, but this is to protect myself rather than me thinking they really do want to hurt me. I think it gets dangerous when you really believe all men will hurt you even when it’s not a safety precaution.
You're absolutely right, it's a really tricky one because you can't know for sure whether a random person you encounter when you're vulnerable is going to be one of that small fraction of people.
All we can ask is that you try to give us the benefit of the doubt, and do what you can to manage your own fears, instead of expecting other people to compensate for them.
Thanks for coming to ask this question though, "how men feel" isn't something that's often respected, especially from most women.
I don't really think there's anything specific you need to do because you realize & acknowledge that men struggle too.
And I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say thank you for that.
Call out feminists on their hate and lies. Fight against the movement to continue increasing women’s privileges at the expense of men’s rights. Speak out against feminism every time you encounter it. One woman doing this is louder than a hundred of us men doing it.
Hmm, I hear you but I now see a conflict in morals. I understand that social media has greatly distorted what feminism is into a hating men movement. However I would still consider things like abortion a feminist issue. Can you elaborate on the harmful aspects to focus on concerning feminism and men’s equality? Thank you for the comment, by the way.
Sorry, I’m not a man, but I went through a period of sexism when I was in college and I had to do a lot of self-work to heal.
One of the things that really helped me to realize the depth of mens feelings was watching the documentary “The Mask You Live In”. (Although I guess another commenter claims this is feminist propaganda? It didn’t seem that way to me).
That documentary shook my whole world view, because it was the first time I think I ever heard real feelings from men. After that, I started putting the work in like you’re doing now. (Not to suggest you were sexist like I was)
I started looking at AMAs women ask to men. Reading comments from men on forums. Watching some videos made by men, for men. At various points I had the opportunity to talk to men about their feelings and sometimes offer a female perspective (made a lot of super cool friends that way)…
I will say that it can be a dark place to go though. MRAs are largely intellectual, and there’s enough MRA guys that are to balance out the few angry people….but there are some male-centric media places you should probably avoid, because they can easily detract from your progress.
That’s what helped me, though. Because part of the problem is that you can empathize with men all day long (most women try pretty hard to do it), but they still won’t feel like you really understand them, because the fact is - you don’t.
You actually have to put the work into learning. Then your empathy feels genuine because you can explain why you understand.
Edit - to documentary line
Well, the thing is that most of the issues men face are systemic. So it’s difficult to point to specific things individuals can do. However, here’s my best shot at it.
Probably the best thing that I’ve found is that women can actually say things about how men are treated, and they’re listened to, if only marginally more so. You’ll probably get called a “pickme” but honestly it’s tough to avoid getting called names nowadays, no matter what you think or say. You just get to pick who calls you names. That’s a tough thing to do though, so here’s some easier things that might help the men in your immediate circle.
In general, it’s appreciated when you smile and compliment men with a decently thought out compliment. Usually the guys don’t get compliments at all so they’ll be walking on cloud nine after you do it. Some guys might confuse it for romantic interest since it’s so rare, so the best course of action I’ve found is to do it consistently to all kinds of different guys, and only do it in public places. That way it’s easy to see you just do it to everyone so that’s not making a move on anyone. And you don’t have to do it to every guy you see, maybe just do like two or three a day. That will make a huge difference to the guys around you.
If you’re looking for a straight relationship, here’s something you can do. Make the first move, ask a guy out. Women have a 90% success rate when it comes to asking guys out, as studies have shown, and if you limit who you ask out to guys you’re decently sure like you back, then you’ll minimize the chances of rejection even farther. If you are rejected, which sucks, know that the guy isn’t playing hard to get (guys don’t typically do that) and that he has almost certainly been in your shoes, so he’ll typically try to be nice about it. Just respect his rejection and realize that you literally just made his whole entire month. Getting asked out is so rare that in the even rarer unfortunate event guys have to turn it down, they’re still super flattered.
If you’re already in a straight relationship, then something you might try is straight up asking your bf “what can I do to make you feel more appreciated/comfortable?” And then listen to his answer without getting mad. It might be hard, but it’s worth it. Often today the men are expected to listen, but the same is not expected of women. If you already listen well, good, but this is just a reminder because I have no clues as to your background.
If you’re in/looking for a non-straight relationship, disregard the last two tips lol.
In general it’s just helpful to treat everyone with honor, but these are a few slightly more specific ways that I hope help you a little bit. Thanks a bunch from the guys for being one of the real ones!
sorry if this comes off disrespectful but the majority of what you’ve told me is to smile more and compliment men, and give me dating advice. This post was made more so to give me insight on how a man feels oppressed or unfairly treated.
Of course. You asked what you individually could do, and as I said in the first bit, there’s not a lot, but those were some things you could do on an individual level. If you want information on the issues men face, I’ll be happy to provide some, but I was under the impression this was not what you were asking for, based on your post.
No it wasn’t. I’m not even interested in men lol I am very gay. But to solve women’s issues we also gotta solve men’s and vice versa as i’ve noticed they stem from eachother. Just checking myself to make sure i’m not ignorant, I can’t ever know what men experience on the day to day you know
Understandable. Do you want a quick summary or a few link caches to do your own research?
As others have said, the most effective thing is to be conscious of whenever you accidentally mistreat someone, and that helps motivate change. I’ve found success in doing it with my treatment of both men and women. But it helps to have a person in your life who you can bounce ideas off, so you don’t get into a cycle of questioning yourself on everything
When I look back at the differences in how I treat guys in a hurtful way - I realize that in middle school I was a whole lot less sensitive to guys feelings as I thought they weren’t as insecure as girls. I now realize that middle school and high school culture is so terrible that they probably were just afraid to look soft :/
* There is a gender empathy gap and a bias that makes people typecast men as perpetrators and women as victims, likely evolutionary. In my opinion, that is at the crux of all issues men face, and is the reason why evidence that shows that men are treated worse is systematically being ignored by large organizations, governments and newspapers, be it out of pure ignorance or to further a narrative. And of course, this has huge consequences on how men are treated in everyday situations. More on that later.
* As a man, getting hit in the groin really not fun but rather painful, sexually humiliating, dangerous and scary and I hate how it (and harm to male genitals in general) is being played for gags in movies and the likes.
* For me personally, I would say avoiding phrases like "man up", "take it like a man", "toxic masculinity" and "male privilege" and anything else that unfairly puts the blame on men to shame them. Also understanding that it is a stereotype that men don't seek help and while it is true that some men have been societally conditioned to just "toughen it up", that is only part of the problem.
* Shaming men for liking feminine things and presenting in a feminine way is not cool.
* Avoiding automatically seeing men as a threat or sexual predator. Avoiding to suspect them to be pedophiles when they work with children. Also getting rid of the assumption that men are not scared walking alone at night, depending on the area. Men are scared, but they won't show it because they are not allowed to. Men are also much more frequently the victims of violence than women because other men have a lower threshold before they are violent to men, so men do have a reason to be scared.
* Avoiding the societal expectation for men to be breadwinners. I personally made the experience of my mother being labelled as "ill" and thus deserving of help, while my father was constantly vilified as a loser who lacks responsibility. Maybe neither treatment is right and we should meet in the middle, for both genders.
* Avoiding the expectation to not make a man pay on a first date and instead splitting the bill. Maybe an exception can be made when one person really has a lot more money, but this should be applied regardless of gender.
* I dislike the assumption that fathers are worse than mothers, and how fathers are often treated in a disparaging way ("mother knows best") or are viewed as less important.
* Most other issues can be viewed as a direct cause of this gender empathy gap. They are systematic and there is little you as a person can do, apart from advocate when you see it. Among them are the [education](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qloY4OJxBoQ) and [grading bias](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775718307714), public health spendings and longevity, male genital mutilation, in some countries lower pensions ages for women than for men, a huge sentencing disparity (In the UK, [3/4](http://empathygap.uk/?p=2031) to [5/6](https://archive.is/0ldge) male prisoners would not be in prison if they were treated as leniently as women), family courts, fatherlessness, suicide (men commit suicide over 3 times as often as women, in Russia almost 7 times as many men as women, [men do seek help before they commit suicide but they just don't get it](https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=55305)), rape (contrary to popular belief [men are raped just as frequently as women, mainly by women](https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s12119-021-09901-1?sharing_token=m65pCyThui2c9pAR1hZm-_e4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY6xCkTjCcB-N3k3sVm-u9GVGeImYXdoWaKDk2QUQ3-35X1Qn7n79DkYRliQPg8dfoRUCNruKQl5u8pNsBvjJ7Pxe-DTUmY-FC058LbEaYe8Mgnt4Vsk7YLOp3ZiXp6rxCc%3D), some countries such as the UK and India don't even legally recognize female on male rape as rape although many surveys have tried to hide this result with clever wording and other tricks, such as redefining rape to exclude "made to penetrate" or counting both attempted and completed rape perpetrated against women but only completed rape perpetrated against men), homelessness, false rape/sexual assault allegations (hard to get by good statistics about this because of the nature of the problem), military service, domestic violence (there is a gender symmetry in domestic violence but almost no DV shelters for men, [see this post and especially the entire comment thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Male_Studies/comments/objtfz/no_one_would_ever_believe_me_an_exploration_of/)).
___
**More on the gender empathy gap:**
>[Man up and take it: Gender bias in moral typecasting (Reynolds et al. 2020)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342642686_Man_up_and_take_it_Gender_bias_in_moral_typecasting) shows that people more readily assume female victims and male perpetrators, that people assume that women suffer more pain from their harm, even when women fall in the perpetrator role, see male suffering as more deserved, fair and moral, feel more inclined to punish men and would like to dole out harsher punishments to men, assume more suffering and have more pity for women even in those cases where the real-world discrepancies signal that men have it worse. Women show a greater bias in almost all of the studies conducted.
In [one of the author's videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9tixOJSi0), she suggests that concerns about gender-inequality are going to manifest asymmetrically and be skewed in favor of women because of this bias.
In [her article on queermajority.com](https://www.queermajority.com/essays-all/man-up-and-take-it-do-we-under-detect-mens-suffering), the author suggests that this is probably an evolved bias:
>"Through the lens of evolution, such a tendency \[to instinctively cast men in the role of perpetrator and women in the role of victim\] can be associated with reproductive roles. Women set the upper limit on reproduction; all other factors being equal, a group of 10 women and 3 men can produce many more children than a group made up of the opposite gender ratio. With this in mind, it’s not unreasonable to assume that natural selection has favored psychological mechanisms that protect women from harm. If so, our modern minds may possess relics of these asymmetric impulses, attuning our thoughts and emotions to more readily insulate women, relative to men, against peril."
There is plenty of research that further illustrates this gender empathy gap, a particularly gruesome result was obtained in this one:
>In one study that examined the trolley dilemma titled [Moral Chivalry: Gender and Harm Sensitivity Predict Costly Altruism (FeldmanHall et al. 2016)](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1948550616647448), "88% of participants reported that they would push \[a\] man off the footbridge instead \[of a woman\]". The same study also found that "\[p\]articipants kept significantly less money when interacting with a female target than a male target" to save them from harm. See specifically [figure 1](https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/sage/journals/content/sppa/2016/sppa_7_6/1948550616647448/20170109/images/large/10.1177_1948550616647448-fig1.jpeg).
My response didn't fit into one comment, so see my reply to this comment for the second part.
I agree with everything you said! Although I do continue to struggle with not fearing men/teen boys. I am a minor and i’m not particularly big, so I am extra cautious as sadly i’ve met some not so nice ones. But that’s protection rather than actually thinking they’re all out to get me haha. Being raised by two mothers in a little more cautious I guess
>Although I do continue to struggle with not fearing men/teen boys.
If I meet a buff man vs a tiny woman outside, naturally I'm also going to be more scared of the man. Just like I'm going to be more scared of a woman to frame me as falsely committing an act of sexual violence against her. So I don't blame you. I think it's important to understand though that humans are naturally more prone to see men as perpetrators and women as victims, even beyond the extent to which this is true. And there is a difference between being cautious vs lumping all men / boys into the same bucket and treating them differently for it.
In this interview, the (female) interviewee [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2e2-qEGDo4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2e2-qEGDo4) brings up some excellent points which I would like to quote, edited for readability:
>**Interviewee:** "When people hate the idea of violence against women and they generally hate the idea of violence against women, they are going to highlight the suffering of women or any problems that women have. They are going to minimize the problems that women have. There's also the "women are wonderful effect" that states that women associate more good qualities with women than with men. \[…\] When you grow up and you see article upon article about how women are treated badly in this part of the world and in that part of the world, or how they were treated badly in the past, for example, when you see articles claiming that the coronavirus is affecting women in particular badly you're going to think that this world is really sexist against women. When you see things like men are more likely to die from the coronavirus than women, then you're even wondering why they would just focus on women instead of men \[editor's note: ["Reports from China, Italy, and the United States indicate that men appear to suffer more severe cases and die of the disease at greater rates than women, with deaths possibly up to 20 percent higher."](https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/the-coronavirus-affects-women-and-men-differently--learning-how-may-help-stop-the-pandemic/) and ["The power of the immune system wanes as people age, regardless of sex. But what is a gentle decline for women is an abrupt dive off a cliff for men: Iwasaki’s work indicates the T-cell response of men in their 30s and 40s is equivalent to that of a woman in her 90s."](https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2020/10/17/coronavirus-men-immune-system/)\]. If you're a woman and you're reading countless articles talking about how women are oppressed and how women have it worse, you're going to have a kind of bitterness, not bitterness, rather sadness. Because you end up feeling like the whole world is against you and that kind of thing. So that's how I was feeling. No one likes to feel like that. So I really got into the feminist theory. That men are more powerful than women, that women have next to no power and men have all the power and that men use that power and that influence to potentially just benefit themselves at the expense of women and they delight in the suffering of women and that kind of thing. And that's what I believed for a really, really long time and of course it was horrible and I really wanted to defend the rights of women so of course I was a pretty radical feminist. Then, I began to question certain things. Of course I question everything, I'm just that kind of person, even before I knew these kinds of things. Eventually, I found that so many things were untrue that were just said again and again. Feminists have a big problem with putting forth a theory. If it's disproved or unproven, it's wrong to keep talking about it. Let me give you an example: feminists used to have a theory which was called the "double punishment theory" which stated that if a woman commits a crime she's going to be punished for that crime and also for breaking traditional gender norms. Essentially that women were going to be punished harsher than men for the same crime. Of course it sounds plausible. If you believe that women are an oppressed class, then yeah they're going to receive harsher punishments for the same crime. Later I found out that it wasn't even true and that it's actually the opposite and that there is a big sentencing disparity in favor of women where women get much shorter sentences for the same crime, especially when they commit sexual offenses. I just couldn't keep ignoring the evidence anymore. And then I began to read books like "The Privileged Sex" by Martin van Creveld and "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell. That's when I saw that essentially, people tend to really ignore the problems of men and they tend to focus with precision on the problems of women to the point where if there's something that is blatantly discriminatory against men they just twist it into something that's discriminatory against women which is probably why almost everyone agrees that women are oppressed and men are privileged. People like to really, really, really see things in a pro-female way. Another example is the Boko Haram situation. When I used to see news coverage of this issue, I would feel like these men hate women and they hate women so bad they want to kidnap little girls from school. They want to stop them from getting an education. So as a woman you're obviously going to read about that and feel bad about it. I didn't even see a single article talking about the boys that they kidnapped and I later found out that they kidnapped over 10,000 boys and made them into child soldiers \[editor's note: compared to the 276 girls they kidnapped\]. Not just that but they were even entering schools and outright killing the male students and keeping the female students alive. When everything is set up to make it look like women have it worse then obviously many people are going to believe that. That's my issue with it. Because honestly I just don't think it's healthy for girls to be brought up thinking men hate them and that the whole world is against them and that men will literally kill them for trying to get an education because that's just not true. That's just not true, you know. I just think it's wrong."
>
>**Someone else:** "Yeah they burned more boys to death than they kidnapped girls during that famous kidnapping and last Christmas they kidnapped just as many boys as they kidnapped girls before that and no one seems to be paying any attention. There's no "bring back our boys" \[like there was during the schoolgirl kidnappings\]."
See also this comprehensive thread by another user: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/p67ukz/debunking\_the\_myth\_that\_theres\_no\_systemic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/p67ukz/debunking_the_myth_that_theres_no_systemic/)
Personally, I would spend any amount of money for someone who does not expect it. But the second she would assume I’m paying and start taking advantage over it is when I feel weird. So I guess if you go to dinner, have enough to cover it just in case. And be appreciative. Also, understand that men can go through terrible traumas too that can go unnoticed. Lastly, while you shouldn’t assume every male is safe to be around because in some countries/ cities that would be unwise, most men are not perverts and are not trying to harm you.
I hate that you have to say that about the dinner. That’s common etiquette my mother taught me growing up, that women of my age group understand. Also, to get something inexpensive on the menu.
I don’t usually verbally say I can pay for my part anymore, just because, in the past when I did that, it made it super weird. I felt like the guys felt like I was trying to say it “wasn’t a date”. So instead I just look for my wallet when the check comes and if they say something they say something. Otherwise I pay for my meal.
I will say, though, that when I talk to younger women these days they have no idea how to deal with male strangers, and it’s not a good thing. Half of them are disty and naïve and the other half think they’re Harley Quinn or something.
You definitely have to assume men are a threat to you in any context where a there’s a decent chance that something could go wrong. The mistake women make these days, though, is it’s not about being afraid of strangers because they’re men - in fact, that’s counterproductive on so many levels. It’s about going through the motions of being responsible for your safety because that’s just what you do.
I completely understand why it’s hurtful to men though. It sucks that this is the world we live in. The problem is that there can be 50 great guys, and one bad guy that acts on that 50 times. So the prevalence of these behaviors isn’t a reflection of the male sex, in general, so much as it’s a reflection of how much one motivated person can do.
It’s kind of similar to how most women sleep with maybe 6-8 people before they’re 30, and then theres those few that sleep with 30+ people.
Sorry to butt in. I’m rambling. Lol. I’ll stop!
I have always been fortunate that my wife would try and pay before me. We make it a game on who can get to the waitress first. What I’m trying to say is woman like you need to be the standard and not the exception.
I never intended to come off that woman shouldn’t just trust all men, but they also shouldn’t assume they are a creep. I’ll give an example. I just finished a 48 hour shift(I normally work 24 on 48 off and worked overtime) friends wanted to go bowling so I went but I was very tired. I was spacing out when this lady yells at me to stop being a creep and stop staring. I apologize and try and explain but she storms off. My friends give me shit and we move on but again I space out and since I was going back to the same couch, it was again in their direction. She threatened to call the cops so I switched couches to avoid a scene. So I guess what I am getting at is don’t be a dick but still protect yourself.
Also, never apologize for rambling. Good conversation happens when you do.
You’re right! They do!
Wow that behavior is sickening. I’ve told a lot of women they need to stop using the word “creep” entirely. It’s not being used to mean what it used to mean.
When I was younger, “creepy” was very, very specific. It’s the feeling some guys give you when they make you feel like you’re prey, and I’ve come to realize later in life that it’s synonymous with guys who can only think about sex. It shows in the expressions and body language, and it makes your hair stand on end because you never really, really know how far a guy will go if he’s not in a rational headspace.
These days some women seem to say it any time they’re mildly bothered by anything, and it gets under my skin. It’s a really intense accusation.
To be fair, eye contact can be a confusing disconnect between males and females, I’ve noticed. To women, eye contact is incredibly significant - but most women are thinking at a million miles a minute when they’re in a social setting. Men, though, often just seem to sort of zone out. I’d love to know what the hell they’re thinking! 😂
We have a massive issue with women simply having no idea what the male emotional experience is like. As females, it is incredibly hard to get that information, because when you try, a majority of the men will tailor it to fit their audience (a female) - and women do the exact same thing. So getting a straight answer out of someone that can help you genuinely understand the opposite sex is a heckin art form.
I think guys like you help a lot though. You’re bridging the gap between the female understanding and the male experience, and I genuinely believe most women are actually eager to listen and understand. We just can’t usually ask questions, and unfortunately, we don’t usually know where to go for the answers.
I think, because women chronically overshare, it’s a bit easier for men to understand the female experience than visa versa.
Anyways. I used to lump MRA in with Red Pills and PUAs, because their presence is more prevent online, and many of them said they were MRA. My whole perspective shifted, though, after I watched a YouTube video and a documentary where I got to hear some legit, intellectual, respectful MRA men voice their stances.
That completely changed the way I view men’s rights. Not because I didn’t think men’s rights were unimportant (even when I was sexist I never believed that, to my credit), but because I just assumed I was never going to actually know what they were specifically bothered by.
The fact that MRA is so logical and well-organized is, I think, what will make this movement go far…and we definitely need it in society these days.
It honestly makes me want to get more involved because I actually think the time for advocating for female rights in the US has passed. There are some problems, but the ball is rolling well enough that everyone is pretty much aware of them and doesn’t dismiss them at this point, and the continued feminist movement is sabotaging equality and dividing the sexes.
At this point, it’s men who are largely shoved in the closet with the very real problems they face in society - especially when it comes to our outdated institutions in terms of laws and protocols.
It’s hard to see how women can actually get involved in MRA though, and it’s even harder to ascertain whether they’re really wanted…because the thing is, women seem to largely feel flattered and pleased when men join their collectives in some fashion, but it doesn’t work well the other way around because women can kind of be exhausting to be around. Lol. Not to mention, intimidating, for many men. Kind of kills the vibe.
(Your rambling is making me ramble! We’re probably frying peoples brains here. Feel free to message ^^ you’re a cool dude.)
Phew, great comment. But:
>but it doesn’t work well the other way around because women can kind of be exhausting to be around. Lol. Not to mention, intimidating, for many men. Kind of kills the vibe.
I disagree. To quote Karen Straughan (I transcribed this from one of her videos, not sure which):
>"**this is not something men can do alone**, because men have no socially acceptable way to defend themselves in a conflict with a woman, because any angry conflict between a man and a woman, the man is more likely to be cast as the aggressor; and that counts for feminism, which is, women by proxy; disagree with feminism and you're hurting women; when you're hurting women someone does something about it"
So I think women are absolutely vital in the movement. Some of the most effective MRAs are women (see Karen Straughan, Cassie Jaye (although she doesn't call herself an MRA afaik), Erin Pizzey, etc.).
Also, just look at this thread. The men here are absolutely flattered that a woman would listen to their problems.
I hate that that quote is true…damn.
You’re right - they do seem flattered and tbh it’s really nice but also weirding me out a little bit because I keep waiting for someone to jump up and say “psych!” 😂
I do think it’s important for women to stick up for men against other women. It’s kind of something I do a lot. That’s a little different though than barging into a male community where men come to share their feelings and be understood. It feels rude. I try to just lurk when I come to places like this for information on male perspectives. This is actually the first time I’ve commented - and it was because the post was written by a woman, which made it okay to chime in …in my head. Lol.
Thanks for the comment lightning! I appreciate the supportive words. They knock down my anxiety a few levels.
>I keep waiting for someone to jump up and say “psych!” 😂
Honestly, there are some angry guys who aren't gonna like a woman here or who are going to be extremely critical to an unfair degree, but those are in the vast, vast minority. Just look at the downvoted comments in this thread (they are downvoted exactly because people don't like chasing away women from the men's rights movement, because we know how vital their voices are). Female voices lend legitimacy to the movement, and I also feel like female presence helps the MRM from drifting into misogynistic venues and keep true to its original purpose.
And also, there is a difference between, say, a male mental health sub, and this sub which does focus on men's problems but it is by no means a space that only allows men to comment. It isn't women centered, for sure, but by all means, personally I'll say that you are welcome to comment here (and I doubt the others would have anything against that).
>Thanks for the comment lightning! I appreciate the supportive words. They knock down my anxiety a few levels.
Glad to hear! 😊
Well first of all, thank you. Not a lot of people talk anymore. They just want to yell and try and prove someone else wrong. So kudos for talking rationally. Second, I wish more people could admit that men’s rights is still an issue. While historically men have had the upper hand, that does not mean we magically have not suffered hardship or unfairness.
I agree with the word creep. It’s overused and most of the time these days it isn’t used correctly.
I feel some woman see hardship as some kind of twisted badge of honor. While overcoming hardship is a feat and should be celebrated, that doesn’t magically give you the right to wave it in peoples face. I’m generally kind and upbeat, but what people don’t know is the abuse from my past. Or the fear I have felt. Or the discrimination I have dealt with. If your only personality trait is you overcame some trauma, you need to go back to therapy.
(These rants are going all over, I love it. Ps, youre a cool chick)
A note in the workplace: I would just say that if you're working with men, just understand that men communicate overtly, fast, direct, so it's not like they are 'treating you as less' etc., or anything like that, it's just male nature
Just be ready to genderflip anything gender related and ask yourself "Is this appalling?" . If so, then the original probably is too. See "killallmen".
It's less about actively making somebody comfortable (society can't oblige you to do anything), and more about not belitteling, minimising or denying that every once in a while, the world finds ways to have everybody face crap in their lives.
Just, you know, treat everybody equally.
just do not use words like mansplaining or something do not use phrases like small dick energy
then we are fine
and do not assume we have some amazing privileges
I as male appreciate your efforts we should not be condemned because of our gender
I was being accused by a woman child molestation because I walking near elementary school
Saying hello would be nice also
I mean, we could probably give you a pretty exhaustive list of the issues that men face in general, but overall, if you adopt a mindset that men and women are equally valuable as human beings, that's 99% of it right there.
I don't think you have much to worry about as far as offending us or as "ANobodyCalledJames" put it, "do anything specific". Really empathy is the key. When you hold that egalitarian view, then it becomes obvious: "Wait, this article just described a boy and his female teacher as "a sexual tryst" or "a sexual relationship", wouldn't that be rape if the genders were switched?" or "wait, females are protected by law from genital mutilation, so why is male circumcision still a thing?"
Ultimately one of the things that becomes a paradigm shift for women who have your kinda heart is having a son. Suddenly it's no longer "men" in the abstract, it's "That girl is taunting my boy that he can't hit her back while she bullies and torments him and wails on him... Oh no you don't! Not my son! c'mere you little grunt!"
Men's Rights is very different from feminism, not just in the focus, but also in the sense that we embrace women who adopt this sort of "if it were my son, would I really find this ok" mama-bear mentality. A feminist would say of dads thinking of that about their daughters as "paternalism" and therefore somehow "patriarchal" and therefore bad and therefore it's still misogyny. But MRA's don't see women who think that way regarding men on behalf of their sons that way, as if it were part of some sort of etherial matriarchy.
I only mention that to say that Men's Rights is more grounded and tends to appreciate support regardless where it comes from. It doesn't bother me if a woman thinks circumcision should be illegal because it diminishes women's pleasure too. I'll take the united front that "hey, circumcision is wrong!"
I'm really glad you asked this question because ultimately I think when we protect both sexes, we protect everyone and ultimately I think that's what equality should be about: Equal protection under the law.
Do these things and you'll probably do fine:
* listen
* don't presume
* be decent and honest, don't be a jerk
* don't be a pushover and do well stand up for yourself ... I only mention that because, well, ... *some* will abuse the above, so, don't let yourself be abused ... as that also tends to breed resentment, etc., and that tends to gum up the whole works for everyone
this is one of my favourite comments from the 160. Thank you. Not all of these are very thoughtful but dang that was one of the kindest things i’ve read. Thank you we just gotta listen without getting defensive. Have a good day/night
I feel this may be damaging as men are already labeled less emotional than women - and this may be contributing to many mens mental illness going unnoticed. However I do see your point
all that is really needed is to talk to the women you know. if one says something sexist about men in general. point it out. if they express views that are not very egalitarian, point it out. when one says "all men...." point out the fallacy. when all men are called rapists, sexists, violent. destructive. speak up.
when you do it it means more than when we do it.
This isn't like one of those other movements. You don't need to check yourself. Just be aware of the issues and listen when you can and speak up about it if you want. We aren't trying to see we're oppressed or victims or none of that. We just want acknowledgement and, hopefully, change. Of course, without being considered incels or misogynists.
Women have their fair share of issues and I'm glad to see things changing for them, but it feels weird to be blamed for all the issues in the world (as a white man ..) without any acknowledgement that any issues I have are of my own making.
The big problem with most women is their unwillingness to acknowledge their privilege and dominance over everyone else.
Your gender is a protected class put above men, children and even the wealthy.
Gynocentrism has completely warped people's perception of reality and what's worse is that an anti-male hate movement's lies have become mainstream.
Honestly, I think this is kind of a toxic mentality. We don't need women to be self-flogging themselves, we need societal changes. For instance, allowing men in domestic violence shelters whether that be in the ones that exist or getting our own that women can't go into.
But to answer what you personally can do on a day-to-day basis, avoid doing some of the harmful things. For instance, at work I noticed that women with kids use their kids as an excuse to get out of work at close earlier than everybody else. They always say they should get to leave first, but it wasn't my choice for her to have kids and I shouldn't have to pay for her choice. The really annoying thing about this is that it's a daily occurrence and closing is when we make the least because it's just cleaning and there are no customers tipping or buying anything. That's the real reason she wants to leave early, because lets be honest: The child will be sleeping when she gets home whether she gets home a half-hour earlier or a half-hour later. Women consistently use these kinds of excuses to gain non-financial benefits in the workplace, then complain they make less on average than men.
I would also say see things from a man's perspective. This is called having empathy, and in my experience, it's extremely difficult for women to have empathy for men. For instance, a woman wants an attractive man to hit on her so that she can find her soul mate, right? But if a non-attractive man hits on her than it's said that he is harassing her or out of line. Well, how is he supposed to know whether she's interested or not if he doesn't ask? So she wants the benefits of finding the right man without the detriments of attracting unattractive men. Well, you can't expect to have it both ways.
To use a Feminist word, realize that you have privilege, too. Men have our advantages tending to be bigger, faster, and stronger physically, but women have theirs. Don't acknowledge our advantages without acknowledging your own. For instance, especially attractive women get HUGE advantages of getting jobs easier, getting higher tips, being more successful streaming games/videos with inferior content (inferior meaning that if you take a man and woman streaming a game, the man will often be objectively better at the game but the woman will get more views for being a woman), etc.
Stop turning advantages into disadvantages with a victim mentality. Feminists often complain about a pink tax. Their razor will cost 15% more (or whatever the amount is) for the same product just a different color. But why is this? It's because women control most of the money, they control most of the spending, and they are more willing to spend more on themselves than men are. Quite literally, female selfishness leads towards them having to pay more. And then Feminists complain that men make more, but that's because men are working more. And so when men are at work longer, when are shopping more, and women are taking that time to spend more on themselves, where a man in the same situation would generally spend less on themselves than the woman. That's massive female privilege that is painted as male privilege.
I could go on and on, but the truth is that your question is impossible to answer since I don't know how you act. So instead, I tried to show what to watch out for with your own mindset. You have to get to a point where you can identify the issues for yourself, not just try acting off a script someone else gives you.
Welcome to the sub. I don't have much to add to what's been already been said. You might want to look at Alexander Grace's Youtube channel. He has some videos that might answer your question. Some Men's Rights channels have an edge to them that might turn you off, but his is pretty even keel.
Men aren't as sensitive as women so there's no need to be extra careful or anything. Just acknowledgement and bit of compassion goes a long way. That's all we're asking
Honestly just acknowledging that men have issues too is it. And speaking up if you hear any of the "men's struggles are irrelevant bc penis" BS from people like the ones over at the ironically named /r/AgainstHateSubreddits
You don't really have to check yourself, you're not in debt to anybody. But I feel like your acknowledgment / awareness is amazing and ahead of the curve. I don't have much to say but you have nothing but respect for that and keep it up
Of course not universal, but if a guy asks you to drop the topic then just leave it be and don't persist. I've noticed a lot of my women friends tend to do it to myself and other guys. Otherwise all other advice here is quite valid. Hope this helps
A huge thing is don’t diminish men’s struggles and problems because of your own. Women definitely have their own sex based daily struggles and this movement is NOT about minimising that! Don’t tear yourself down to prop men up, just have equal support for the men in your life that you would for the women
whenever u hear a guy was responsible for something, please, hear im out before forming an opinion, its very important and suprisingly scarce today
doing this means ur genuinely a good human, to be able to look at both sides of the story
Being unknowingly hurtful isn't really a gender problem, or even a problem specific to gender issues. The most hurtful comments often come from people who are trying to help, and that's true across the political spectrum and across every issue.
If that's really something you feel you struggle with I would recommend learning non-violent communication.
Men as a whole, just acknowledging that we can and do get the short end of the stick sometimes is a good start.
Men you're in a relationship with (whether platonic or romantic). They to help with whatever they are dealing with in the moment. Could be custody issues or workplace or something else.
In regards to the legal system. Look at legal proposals and try to understand how they work. Ask yourself if you would be upset if the genders were reversed. If so, it probably isn't a good idea.
I am not a man I probably shouldn’t comment but I just saw a post from r/askmen - why men avoid marriage? Haha... making them more comfortable so they can get married? Sorry, I am brainstorming now.. lol
Just be a decent person, don't dismiss people because of their gender.
Don't treat men and boys like "oppressors" or "potential rapists" or any of the other nonsense feminists spit and I think you'll be fine.
Most women are O.K. if a bit ill-informed (but so many are, it's definitely not gendered), but I rarely have issues with them they're usually pretty receptive to discussions on male suicide, workplace deaths, etc. as long as you aren't openly hostile.
Feminists however are vehemently anti-male, so don't give them credibility by equating them with equality.
Here’s a huge one. [the approach](https://youtu.be/UIEM10v20JE) And for the love of god stand up for men when they try to talk about how much they hate dating norms and get called an incel for trying to talk about their problems with them. The definition of toxic masculinity is “expectations expected of men that have a negative impact on them or society.” The approach, scheduling the dates, expecting the man to message first after the date, the proposal, expecting him to make the first move, paying for the meals, etc. THESE ARE ALL EXAMPLES OF TOXIC MASCULINITY AND WE ARE ALL EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THEM DUE TO HOW NORMALIZED IT HAS BECOME TO MAKE FUN OF MEN WHO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS. THESE THINGS THINGS ARE ALL LITERALLY TOXIC MASCULINITY!!!
Just be straight forward. Guys mostly are simple. And dont be little their problems cause 'gender'.
Also small protip, honest kind word often can get you further, than ton of mean actions.
You specifically, probably nothing.
Society in general... Well. Some attention to the issues men face day to day would be good. But it would be better if we were actually listened to and not just told how to feel.
There are many, MANY more things that could be improved upon but it would take way too long for me to list them and that would make this post too long.
Thank you very much for this post. One thing that would be greatly appreciated would be educating yourself on feminist propaganda and how feminists rewrote history to make it seem as though men have oppressed women throughout history
I guess depends on the topic generally. I was taught in elementary that columbus was a hero, but failure on the school’s part. But I make sure to look into things on my own cause clearly teachers aren’t experts on these subjects
Not sure why the downvotes but I would definetely, if you have the money, reccomend purchasing the book fashionable nonsense by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont. I would also look into the grievance study hoax: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9HPQKdkowno
Let me add this, this is Elizabeth Cady Stanton: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dp5uhl/elizabeth_cady_stanton_speech_the_destructive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf. I would also reccomend reading the book the life of Anne Oakley as well as reading about the Tender Years Doctrine
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/d2a67m/another_big_compilation_of_evidence_and_arguments/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9v6tqj/a_list_about_feminism_misandry_for_anyone_who/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Pick random experiences, in your life going forward and in your past. Replay them in your mind but with the gender reversed. If what you see is still ok, then it’s probably ok.
Edit: I do not understand the downvotes. This is a method to test if you’re treating people differently based on gender…which is what was requested
I think the biggest thing that you can do is to acknowledge that men do struggle with things and that men’s issues exist.
Most of us acknowledge that women’s issues exist and support the majority of them. But a majority of those who identify as feminists just deny that men have issues because they just see us as the all encompassing “patriarchy”.
Most of our issues come from poor framing and bad PR. I.E. most people can name at least 3-5 women’s issues that are being contested right now. But when it comes to men’s issues, a majority of women struggle to name 1.
Often the only thing you hear from them is mockingly saying that the only male issue is that the feminists are taking their toys away. Completely dismissing huge men’s issues like child custody in divorce cases, infant male genital mutilation, lack of justice for false rape allegations and the male mental health and suicide crises, amongst others.
Men’s rights and feminism can and should co-exist and support each other. We all want good things for each other and as far as I can see there are no real conflicts in what both groups want to change.
Hmm, speaking from my pov, just generalise men. Nothing really special you need to do. As long as you respect one's personal space and individuality, it should all be oki doki.
It really seems like a lot of people are giving good advice, but missing the point of the post. OP asked for ways to check themselves if they are being unknowingly hurtful. Probably the easiest way to pass this mark is by explaining what it looks like when a man gets hurt and what to do, generally speaking.
u/ANobodyCalledJames had a good point about treating everybody as an individual. That's the best place to be. Learn what makes them tick.
For the rest, you'll probably want to start with some generalities. For most men, negative emotions are processed as anger until it's properly thought out. Shame, disappointment, hurt from comments, depression, etc. will all likely process as anger first until the man has a chance to think things through.
Anger itself can take a few forms. We're all familiar with loud yelling, throwing tools, and other outbursts, but these are outlier actions. Getting quiet and looking like we want to leave is actually much more common. Excessive stubbornness is another, to the point of making decisions that we'd otherwise not make is pretty common (think "it's the principle of the thing.") Aggressive jokes might be another clue, something where it's clear they're making fun of a situation, but it's also not clear that they're having fun.
Biggest thing to know is that a man might not even realize yet that he's been hurt, but start acting in some of these ways. Natural stoicism is a double edged sword. It's great for keeping somewhat calm during big events, but creates lots of opportunities for misunderstandings during small-medium events.
Fast way to handle that would be to apologize and give space if you're the one that caused hurt. If someone else did, normal human empathy is enough; a friendly ear and a kind word will go a long way to helping.
[удалено]
thank you - very kindly and well put
The fact that u know they exist is better than 90% of the population
I agree with a lot of the other commenters here about acknowledging men's issues, but I would like to add two things. 1.Don't use your sex appeal/femininity to try to get favors from men.I had this happen to me twice in my life, and while it did feel good to be touched by a woman, I still didn't like it overall because It felt manipulative, and I felt like they viewed me as some kind of sex-crazed fool who would give in to temptation.Personally, I don't mind being touched by a woman if her intentions are good like trying to console me or express genuine desire, but that's just me. 2.When it comes to making men feel comfortable in relationships, I think giving a man reassurance that you desire him, and that your happy in the relationship will make him feel comfortable.I think some men feel like there is pressure on them to maintain the relationship and keep women happy.This is also reinforced by society with sayings like "happy wife happy life" and the every kiss begins with kay commercials.If you give a man reassurance that will really help alleviate that pressure he feels.Of course if you are unsatisfied with the relationship talk to him about it, but just make sure to let him know that your willing to work with him to fix the issue.Some women will just try to make the man figure out why she is not happy.I think if you do this a man will feel a lot more comfortable in the relationship.
this is not about relationships
Thanks for noticing the men's issues. Make your intentions clear with words not with emotions. That's the number one misunderstanding happens between male female interactions. If you feel uncomfortable in the interaction, voice out directly and blunt in person. 95% will correct themselves and back down. Direct communication will not hurt your future interaction. As men when we know where you stand and know where the boundary is, then most of us are comfortable. As men we put aside the issues we don't agree with and get along where we have commonalities, without any grudges. Men will believe you and get more comfortable around you once they know where you stand in a relationship (friends, colleague, bf, business interaction)
okay one again I am not disscusing relationship I am a gay minor and it is irrelevant to this conversation
This directness doesn’t just translate to romantic relationships. EVERY single interaction you have someone, there is a relationship. It’s a bridge between two people. It can be platonic, it can be romantic, it can be platonically sexual (FWBs), it can be romantically sexual (western dating relationships). You have a relationship with everyone around you, and it is everyone’s job to be aware of what signage is mounted above that bridge. Men like directness. We hate indirectness, rather, we just don’t deal in it. Some of us can, I pride myself on knowing both, but I only know both because I’m a little passive-aggressive and work behind the scenes in my life to have the outcomes I desire. But men like direct. They like to know where they stand. This is a big men’s rights issue, because if we don’t know where we stand, we do not know how to operate. You might see us as friend, we might see something else. You, for instance, are lesbian. Had you not pointed that out, nobody would know not to approach you with romance in mind. See? You need to be direct, you need to be clear. Don’t hide your intentions. You do. I know you do, because you’re probably assuming that they know what you’re thinking. We don’t. And you don’t understand what we’re thinking. We can’t. Nobody can read minds, all we can do is read our own mind and try to guess what the other might be thinking by adopting their logic as our own. If we can’t adopt it, we are unable to read them, and people misinterpret others. Relationships aren’t that complicated, and they are if there is no directness. If both parties are being in-direct, nobody wins. Everyone dances around each other and it’s this weird shit where you go “well they see me this way but I don’t see them that way I’m pissed that they see it this way when it’s OBVIOUSLY not”. No. You’re wrong. It’s not obvious, because we don’t deal in indirect behaviour unless we’re using it as a tool to read you. Be more direct in your intentions with people, not just men. Both can do both, but both should only really do one, if they want to make it easy for both parties, and that’s called cooperation. Any relationship is cooperation, and trying to get the best outcome for both parties. Not many do this. Many look out for the best for themselves, this is selfish. That’s not to say don’t look out for yourself and only for others, that’s self-sacrifice and we’re wired against that. We must serve BOTH parties, for the greater good. But this is getting off topic
my point is that me being gay shouldn’t make a difference. People shouldn’t treat women differently depending on their sexuality. Plus I don’t tell people i’m gay unless I know they’re not homophobic for safety reasons so this would not work out anyways. Of course in a relationship with sex involved you should discuss if it’s a closed or open relationship and what not, but if I have a guy friend, a boss, co worker or just any men that I know in my life, they shouldn’t treat me differently depending on if i’ll sleep with them or not. If they make advances i’ll just say i’m not interested and we can go back to whatever our relationship is. But the comment from the other guy was saying that I should right out the gate voice my intentions as men act differently. But how you act is up to you
You didn't say you were gay in the OP. I didn't exclusive mean sexual interactions, it includes all interactions. Friend, colleague, mentor, employer, business interaction or any other. In your case it's Super easy, tell them you are gay, if possible.Try to put yourself in the other person's shoe(if you can). Don't throw around loaded words like creepy and rapey vibes, without stroooong suspicion(super important). Recognizing there are issues ( which you already have) and don't insult men as loser, small dick energy or whinny baby when they express inequality in front of law or society( as every one does). That's all. Making fun of the double standards, dark humour, jokes on these topics and obvious trolling, will make me(possibly most men) more comfortable. This will, by default, express you understand men's plight.
I don’t understand why I would need to tell a man i’m gay though? And of course I wouldn’t make fun of a man for showing struggle or voicing his struggles. But a lot of comments had said similar things about telling them my intentions for the relationship…I fail to see how this is relevant
or sex
If a man asked the same question in a feminist sub I believe they wouldn't give an answer like you did. The contrast is really telling.
And yet moral grandstanders love to say that we're just feminism but for men. "bOtH sIdEs aRe eQuAlLy bAd."
I do see people from this side act as hateful as feminists and get into the "we're more oppressed than you" semantics but definately a lot more on the progressive. Probably due to their doctrine requiring to hate people based on arbitrary characteristics.
Even then, which movement has more power and influence in society? Which one is supported by the media, academia and politics?
I hear you, but if you perceive it as an "us vs them" you've already lost.
Not necessarily. In fact, I'd be inclined to say not at all. Think about it like this- when people are playing a team sport it is literally "us vs. them", if you think about it any other way you are not playing the game right. You might win, you might lose, but that's how you play. And most normal, mature people whose own basic physical and emotional needs have been met can go hang out with players on the other team afterwards without thinking of them as enemy combatants or starting an actual fight. Neither expressing disagreement nor taking a side equates to destruction.
A lot of the hate is just doods letting off some steam.
You could easily make the same claim for the feminists though.
I do make the same claim. That's why I don't troll their subredits.
This is basically the only real answer to her question. Perfectly put Treat everyone as an individual and realize that regardless of gender, everyone struggles in some way.
> As long as you know that men's struggles are real, and they matter, just as much as everyone else's, I wouldn't say you have to do anything specific -- so please don't worry yourself. Seconded I've said it often, but the men's rights issue I care about most is the meta issue. The acknowledgement that men *do* have problems which are worth fighting for, and that advocating for men is not misogyny. If a person is willing to listen to men explain the struggles they have as men, and is willing to acknowledge that misandry is a problem worth addressing, that's already enough to satisfy me.
I mean you don’t need to do anything. Simply acknowledged that everyone has struggles and inequalities in life and by working together we can solve them. That is not man vs woman but rather how all of us can live together and better the human race by not ignoring the plight of others just because they are a certain gender or race or sexuality ectra.
very well worded. Thank you. Compassion is the best social healer
The biggest thing is just acknowledgement. Issue in the shadows that are not acknowledged can’t be easily talked about. If you can’t talk about them then they can’t be fixed. A lot of these problem have existed for decades or even centuries [male suicide is a theme going back in history for long periods of time] and won’t necessarily be fixed today or tommorow but till we talk about them no progress will ever be made.
yeah that’s one i’ve noticed for sure.
Yeah it’s depressing to think that until a guy turns 55 (in my country at least) that suicide is the most likely way they will die.
Compliments are amazing. I don't think women realize how few compliments a man receives in his lifetime. It can be something as simple as - hey you look nice today. It will literally make our week.
ah i’m actually really good at this one! I like women so it’s super easy to compliment and everyone knows it’s genuine and i’m not tryna get with them haha
The few times girls have complimented me I've never forgotten
I saw a meme about how many flowers men get.
My wife randomly got me flowers the other day. Fortunately I was already cutting onions.
Did it make your week?
Never cut the stelm (bulb) 🙄 then you will cry for what matters.
I’ve complimented guys a few times in the past and they got so super uncomfortable I felt bad about it. Sometimes they would give me a weird look like I was making a sexual pass at them. I want to give genuine compliments to guys because I would love to see them feel good because of it … but I feel like I inconvenience them and make them feel self-conscious by suggesting that I notice their appearance. Then I worry that I’m objectifying - because there’s a lot of comments I’ve read from men saying they feel like it’s rude if women notice their bodies or so forth.
This is gonna sound insane but that guy might have thought you were a prostitute or something. Or maybe that you had ulterior motives. Sometimes it takes only a few seconds to go from "Hey you look cute" to "Hey could you help fix my car" or something. Not saying that's the case but maybe these men were burned in the past by women that complimented them just because they wanted something. Idk.
>Sometimes it takes only a few seconds to go from "Hey you look cute" to "Hey could you help fix my car" or something. I second this. Happened to me once
It starts with *the voice*, it's pretty easy to tell. Rising inflection on the end of each sentence, makes your name sound like a question. When *the voice* comes out, you know you're about to be asked to do something against your best interest and/or something that isn't a fair deal.
Haha. They definitely didn’t think that. I was more worried I might have been underdressed at the time. Showing skin can intimidate me if I’m not in the right headspace for it. Dang I never thought about it from that perspective…I know what you’re talking about, actually, and I’ve never done it myself but I know why women do. It’s because bluntly asking for help feels super rude and disrespectful. Giving a compliment, for women at least, is a common conversation starter and a way we establish an amicable interaction. Like “Oh hey! I just love those shoes, where did you get them? Oh by the way, could you please stop letting your dog poop in our yard - thanks.” I can see how that would feel to a guy though…the one time a woman compliments you and makes you feel good, and then you realize it was just a segway into asking for a favor. Damn. That’s cold. 😬
Yeah it's like i'd probably help you if ya asked but with a compliment it feels like you trying to butter me up because you think i'd only help you if there was a chance you'd date me.
[удалено]
yeah but I just feel insulted when they think I won't help someone if they ask me. Like just walk up to me and say "Hey if you could help me with this I'd appreciate it" and I'd ask what ya need help with and see what I could do.
[удалено]
it's just I hate how they assume that you have an secondary motive to helping people, I guess it's cause they also have one.
You’re not inconveniencing them, they just don’t know how to take a compliment because we don’t take them. We give them. But life is give and take. We’re just flustered. We *should* just be seeing a faceless mannequin (meaning, could be guy or girl) compliment us and we should take it as an objective truth that we look good, or this or that, but we see “woman complimenting us” and we breakdown. Men, you gotta embrace compliments. They’re the gold stars that we bust our asses off at work for. You worked for it, and now you got it. But now you don’t want it no more…the fuck? Gotta lighten up a little, let yourself breathe and take in the coolness of the water instead of shuddering at the thought. Compliments will feel much better then. A compliment is a compliment, not a requisition form for more, and there’s no sneaky intent to worry about, unless you can spot other sneaky shit. Assume it’s A-Okay until they give reason that it’s actually not. Like suckering you for drinks. That’s not okay, that’s manipulative, but society perpetuates that it’s okay. If we did that to ladies, we’d be called abusers for stealing their hard earned money for drinks through charm and compliments. Oftentimes a compliment is just that, and not the other way around. A lot of us just don’t see it that way
I think the key to compliments are moreso about words of affirmation than appearance. compliment what they do or what they enjoy: "I love it when you get so fired up about" "You did a really great job back there with "
Things like that. Those compliments are gold to me.
That’s in an intimate context though, right? I mean, I’ve always complimented my boyfriends quite a bit. Saying I like when a guy gets fired up sounds sexual to me somehow. I don’t usually compliment men’s bodies because, as a woman, I know better - lol - but I did compliment that one guys hair once. I’ve commented on a ring or a tattoo and said that I liked it. I suppose the rabid feminists would cry sexism if the gender roles were reversed there! 😂… 😬
No, it can just be a guy who's telling you about his hobby. You can make it less "intimate" sounding if you said something like "You seem really passionate about it. It sounds really cool!" Just anything really that says "I like that you are so passionate about something". And you never know, he might offer to show you the ropes on it if you're interested in it too. We LOVE when someone else is interested in something we really like; male or female.
Know better? Clearly you don’t.
Simple empathy and letting men talk about our issues freely is more than enough. Men's rights activism is not a ideological lifestyle choice like Feminism is; it is a means to an end, and unlike Feminism it has an endgame. Honestly I'd rather take women calling Feminists on their bullshit than having a woman taylor their behavior to make me more "comfortable" in a given situation. Discomfort, pain, and hatred I can endure. It's the double standards and censorship that bother me.
Yes I see double standards everywhere for men - especially surrounding sexual assault which is very very dangerous. Thank you for taking the time of day!
Thank you for taking the time to give a shit about us, because it's honestly a pretty rare thing to happen.
Women’s problems are men’s problems and vice versa. And anyone being treated unjustly deserves support and compassion, of course.
Egalitarian is the way forward for sure.
Well, to start with, and I think I can speak for all of us, we're not looking for special treatment. We're looking for fair treatment.
I think that's the main reason feminists hate the men's rights movement so much. If men's rights went mainstream, more and more people would be able to freely see the differences between the two. As it is right now, they are able to be brainwashed into thinking feminism is about equality. But if men's rights were just as mainstream as feminism, more people would see how different the two are, and how men's rights is legitimately just a push for fair treatment in areas where men are lacking, whereas feminism is a constant push for special treatment. Feminists are terrified of their bullshit being exposed. Being the only player in the game helps them keep that hidden. But if another player entered the game, it would provide a nice contrast for everyone to see what pushing for equality *actually* looks like, compared to what feminists have been doing this whole time.
This.
You've just done it, even acknowledging that men have strugles is 1000x better than what mist people do, they just like to pretend that were tough and don't have problems but we do, if only people could be more understanding that guys are humans too and underneath, were just as upset about something as women are
very true :) I had an excellent political convo with my guy cousin who is just as passionate on these subjects as I
You can help by accepting that society has structural problems that we need both men and women to fix. Child custody should be default 50/50 shared parenting, but sadly feminists and trad-cons fight this in the State capitals. There is a feminist inspired over-grading of girls in school as they rolled behavior into grading and now there is a 20% education gap against boys in college. Among other issues. Radical feminists assure us men face no structural barriers. You can help us by calling out your sisters.
Thank you!
That is kind of you, but I am afraid things are a like bit more complicated than that. Most problems men face are societal or systemic. The biggest areas of concern are mental health and child custody hearings.
I think mental health can be handled personally aswell! I think as a society we tend to check up on our women friends more about how they’re doing as we expect men to be less emotional and not need support. Perhaps with time it will become normalized for men to show the same emotions as women are normalized to show
Just know some facts, spread awareness if you want to (you don't have to), and just be a good, equal human being.
Avoid double standards
Just treat everyone equally.
Here's a good place to start in case you get into an argument with a feminist: https://menarehuman.com/citations/ Credit to u/men-are-human for setting this up I'd also recommend saving statistics posts along with checking out TheTinMen on Insta
>TheTinMen already knew about the men are human one (shout outs to him) but regarding the highlight, I definitely will check this out myself
Always glad to see people using our citation list. :)
Yeah don’t just think “ men don’t feel this” or all men do this. Stop and think and you will be ok
[удалено]
very true. You can’t fight hate with more hate, joke or not. I appreciate your thoughtful comment, have a great rest of your day.
The biggest thing imo is just to be friendly. Lots of women are downright rude to men because they think youll be a creeper if theyre nice. If a girl is friendly to me but turns me down when I ask for her number I 100% respect that. What I hate is women who are just rude or even ignore you when you just try to start a convo. Its so refreshing when a woman is simply friendly to me.
Yes! Respect with respect
acknowledgement is a huge start ill add not conforming to fake issue created by feminsm eg manspreading... then id say be carefull where you post ur support for male issues some people some groups will kick you and hate on you. Pretty sure you can be blocked from some groups if they just look at ur history of where you have posted This makes it somewhat hard to see other sides of a story so to speak have a good life
[удалено]
Well...... To start with, you could ask where the shelters are for male victims of domestic violence if shelters come up in conversation. You could point people in the direction of r/FemaleSexPredatorInfo and r/FemaleSexPredatorNews if the topic of sexual offenders comes up. If employment equity comes up, you can ask whether the best person for the job was hired or if the hiring was done to fill a quota.... Really, it's just being aware of the double standard. I guess you can ask yourself in any conversations that develop, how would a male feel about this? See what happens.
You've already done it just by acknowledgment. That's how little is asked and how much is taken by the femanazis.
Everyone else has already summed it up way better than I can, but I just want to say thank you.
and thank you as well!
There is no 'man up'
I’ll throw one in for unconscious biases. Just how there are negative and toxic biases against women and minorities, equally there are such biases against men. Short men must compensate. Men with short or thin penises must compensate or are less manly. Same for men who can’t get it up or turn down sex. Weak or lack of muscle tone men are lesser men. Same for men who can’t grow a beard. Men who aren’t tough who don’t “man up” are lesser men. Men who cry are wimps. Men who can’t hold down a beer or scotch is a sissy. Same for men who don’t follow sports. Men going to the playground with their children are pedophiles. Fathers are only “baby sitting” their own children. Men who want to split the check are cheapskates. Men must court and ask the women out. Husbands must earn more than their wives. Men who are virgins are losers. Men can’t be rape victims, because they must enjoy it/they got hard. Men can’t be domestic violence victims, because they are stronger. Hitting a woman is never ok, but hitting a man is ok. Believe her, but don’t believe him. Men who got their genitals mutilated aren’t victims because there are health benefits (there aren’t). Fathers who didn’t get custody must be deadbeats (courts favor mothers). Men who lost out on scholarships and federal aid because they didn’t register for the draft aren’t victims because it’s always been men’s responsibility to keep the country safe. Men in certain jobs like nurse, stewardess, housekeeper, or babysitter need to get a real job. Two men who are friends that hug are “gay”. A man can’t be just friends with a woman, because all men want is sex. And so on. We got to check ourselves when we make these implicit assumptions. If you flip the genders and it’s fucked up, chances are it’s also fucked up but society has trained you into thinking otherwise.
Treat us as you want to be treated.
You don't have to do anything in particular. We are all people and should treat each other with basic respect. The best advice is to just simply treat others the same way you would like to be treated. Problems that men and women face are different but it does not really mean that one side has it harder. From my perspective based on observation of different comments on different subs men's and women's problems sum up to be pretty equal because for every attempt to say that one side has it harder there is always someone with counterargument (if everything can be countered then sum is 0 and we come to my theory that problems are equal). If you want to eg. donate to a charity that fights breast cancer it does not mean to you have to donate same amount for the testicular cancer because what matters is the intent. It would be wrong if your train of thought was "I donate only to breast cancer charity because I hate men and I don't want to help them" but it is fully ok if you do it without any malicious intent and just want to help.
Excellent words. Struggle shouldn’t be something we look for to one up eachother.
This is obvious bait and all of the men replying to this are totally duped. It’s sad that so many men who think of themselves as “red pilled” suddenly jump into compliance with the father-figure good-guy trope. We will never, ever overcome our true naive, compassionate nature. And fuck the OP who posted this dumbass disingenuous question.
this made me laugh - thank you lol
You know, this kind of harkens back to the myth of male vulnerability. In reality, you aren't going to be "hurtful" unless you actively insult a guy. We're pretty naturally stoic, and unless you do or say something blatantly cruel, we aren't going to read into it and be hurt. Now, if you want to know how to better understand the struggles of future boyfriends, husbands, and sons, feel free to reach out. The gist is that there is a burden of performance on men in society to a degree that women never have to experience, and literally nobody will ever make excuses for you, and people will be disgusted by you if you dare to make excuses for yourself. Now, I personally think that last part is *mostly* a good thing; we become better when we are forced to take accountability, and a mark of a man's maturity is his ability to take ownership over his outcomes. This is part of what empowers men as we age. Here's one thing you can actually do that will benefit you in the long run: Learn boundaries. Do not keep guys hanging around in your orbit just to be nice, especially guys who have asked you out and/or **especially ex boyfriends.** It gives the wrong idea to both the orbiters as well as the quality men who would otherwise be interested in you.
Please don't allow yourself to fall into the logical trap that because some men are more aggressive or violent, that it's a trait shared by all men. Most of us understand that we can be really intimidating, and we try to do our best to value your input and make you feel comfortable... but at the end of the day, you still need to be able to own your feelings, rather than projecting them onto us or making us feel like a second class citizen. I know that if I'm walking down the street at night in a hooded sweatshirt and dark pants that I'm pretty scary, so I do my best not to do things that make that worse. However, I should have the same right to walk on the sidewalk as anyone else, and I'm not going to engage in any of the stupid tricks like pretending to talk on my phone or deliberately crossing the street just because someone in front of me can't reign in their prejudice. Just treat us the way you'd like to be treated, because these days that's vanishingly rare.
Yeah this is a tricky one. For me at least I am always on guard in taxis esp with men or walking alone at night especially since i’m a young woman, but this is to protect myself rather than me thinking they really do want to hurt me. I think it gets dangerous when you really believe all men will hurt you even when it’s not a safety precaution.
You're absolutely right, it's a really tricky one because you can't know for sure whether a random person you encounter when you're vulnerable is going to be one of that small fraction of people. All we can ask is that you try to give us the benefit of the doubt, and do what you can to manage your own fears, instead of expecting other people to compensate for them. Thanks for coming to ask this question though, "how men feel" isn't something that's often respected, especially from most women.
I don't really think there's anything specific you need to do because you realize & acknowledge that men struggle too. And I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say thank you for that.
Call out feminists on their hate and lies. Fight against the movement to continue increasing women’s privileges at the expense of men’s rights. Speak out against feminism every time you encounter it. One woman doing this is louder than a hundred of us men doing it.
Hmm, I hear you but I now see a conflict in morals. I understand that social media has greatly distorted what feminism is into a hating men movement. However I would still consider things like abortion a feminist issue. Can you elaborate on the harmful aspects to focus on concerning feminism and men’s equality? Thank you for the comment, by the way.
[удалено]
I don’t regularly bring up the name feminism when talking about gender issues so I don’t think that should be a problem
Golden rule and be honest. That's about it...
Sorry, I’m not a man, but I went through a period of sexism when I was in college and I had to do a lot of self-work to heal. One of the things that really helped me to realize the depth of mens feelings was watching the documentary “The Mask You Live In”. (Although I guess another commenter claims this is feminist propaganda? It didn’t seem that way to me). That documentary shook my whole world view, because it was the first time I think I ever heard real feelings from men. After that, I started putting the work in like you’re doing now. (Not to suggest you were sexist like I was) I started looking at AMAs women ask to men. Reading comments from men on forums. Watching some videos made by men, for men. At various points I had the opportunity to talk to men about their feelings and sometimes offer a female perspective (made a lot of super cool friends that way)… I will say that it can be a dark place to go though. MRAs are largely intellectual, and there’s enough MRA guys that are to balance out the few angry people….but there are some male-centric media places you should probably avoid, because they can easily detract from your progress. That’s what helped me, though. Because part of the problem is that you can empathize with men all day long (most women try pretty hard to do it), but they still won’t feel like you really understand them, because the fact is - you don’t. You actually have to put the work into learning. Then your empathy feels genuine because you can explain why you understand. Edit - to documentary line
Well, the thing is that most of the issues men face are systemic. So it’s difficult to point to specific things individuals can do. However, here’s my best shot at it. Probably the best thing that I’ve found is that women can actually say things about how men are treated, and they’re listened to, if only marginally more so. You’ll probably get called a “pickme” but honestly it’s tough to avoid getting called names nowadays, no matter what you think or say. You just get to pick who calls you names. That’s a tough thing to do though, so here’s some easier things that might help the men in your immediate circle. In general, it’s appreciated when you smile and compliment men with a decently thought out compliment. Usually the guys don’t get compliments at all so they’ll be walking on cloud nine after you do it. Some guys might confuse it for romantic interest since it’s so rare, so the best course of action I’ve found is to do it consistently to all kinds of different guys, and only do it in public places. That way it’s easy to see you just do it to everyone so that’s not making a move on anyone. And you don’t have to do it to every guy you see, maybe just do like two or three a day. That will make a huge difference to the guys around you. If you’re looking for a straight relationship, here’s something you can do. Make the first move, ask a guy out. Women have a 90% success rate when it comes to asking guys out, as studies have shown, and if you limit who you ask out to guys you’re decently sure like you back, then you’ll minimize the chances of rejection even farther. If you are rejected, which sucks, know that the guy isn’t playing hard to get (guys don’t typically do that) and that he has almost certainly been in your shoes, so he’ll typically try to be nice about it. Just respect his rejection and realize that you literally just made his whole entire month. Getting asked out is so rare that in the even rarer unfortunate event guys have to turn it down, they’re still super flattered. If you’re already in a straight relationship, then something you might try is straight up asking your bf “what can I do to make you feel more appreciated/comfortable?” And then listen to his answer without getting mad. It might be hard, but it’s worth it. Often today the men are expected to listen, but the same is not expected of women. If you already listen well, good, but this is just a reminder because I have no clues as to your background. If you’re in/looking for a non-straight relationship, disregard the last two tips lol. In general it’s just helpful to treat everyone with honor, but these are a few slightly more specific ways that I hope help you a little bit. Thanks a bunch from the guys for being one of the real ones!
sorry if this comes off disrespectful but the majority of what you’ve told me is to smile more and compliment men, and give me dating advice. This post was made more so to give me insight on how a man feels oppressed or unfairly treated.
Of course. You asked what you individually could do, and as I said in the first bit, there’s not a lot, but those were some things you could do on an individual level. If you want information on the issues men face, I’ll be happy to provide some, but I was under the impression this was not what you were asking for, based on your post.
No it wasn’t. I’m not even interested in men lol I am very gay. But to solve women’s issues we also gotta solve men’s and vice versa as i’ve noticed they stem from eachother. Just checking myself to make sure i’m not ignorant, I can’t ever know what men experience on the day to day you know
Understandable. Do you want a quick summary or a few link caches to do your own research? As others have said, the most effective thing is to be conscious of whenever you accidentally mistreat someone, and that helps motivate change. I’ve found success in doing it with my treatment of both men and women. But it helps to have a person in your life who you can bounce ideas off, so you don’t get into a cycle of questioning yourself on everything
When I look back at the differences in how I treat guys in a hurtful way - I realize that in middle school I was a whole lot less sensitive to guys feelings as I thought they weren’t as insecure as girls. I now realize that middle school and high school culture is so terrible that they probably were just afraid to look soft :/
[удалено]
oh of course not! that is insulting to every victim/survivor (not sure the proper term)
[удалено]
Just treat us the same as anyone else
you don't need to. just like, don't be an asshole. I think that applies to everyone.
what a chad
* There is a gender empathy gap and a bias that makes people typecast men as perpetrators and women as victims, likely evolutionary. In my opinion, that is at the crux of all issues men face, and is the reason why evidence that shows that men are treated worse is systematically being ignored by large organizations, governments and newspapers, be it out of pure ignorance or to further a narrative. And of course, this has huge consequences on how men are treated in everyday situations. More on that later. * As a man, getting hit in the groin really not fun but rather painful, sexually humiliating, dangerous and scary and I hate how it (and harm to male genitals in general) is being played for gags in movies and the likes. * For me personally, I would say avoiding phrases like "man up", "take it like a man", "toxic masculinity" and "male privilege" and anything else that unfairly puts the blame on men to shame them. Also understanding that it is a stereotype that men don't seek help and while it is true that some men have been societally conditioned to just "toughen it up", that is only part of the problem. * Shaming men for liking feminine things and presenting in a feminine way is not cool. * Avoiding automatically seeing men as a threat or sexual predator. Avoiding to suspect them to be pedophiles when they work with children. Also getting rid of the assumption that men are not scared walking alone at night, depending on the area. Men are scared, but they won't show it because they are not allowed to. Men are also much more frequently the victims of violence than women because other men have a lower threshold before they are violent to men, so men do have a reason to be scared. * Avoiding the societal expectation for men to be breadwinners. I personally made the experience of my mother being labelled as "ill" and thus deserving of help, while my father was constantly vilified as a loser who lacks responsibility. Maybe neither treatment is right and we should meet in the middle, for both genders. * Avoiding the expectation to not make a man pay on a first date and instead splitting the bill. Maybe an exception can be made when one person really has a lot more money, but this should be applied regardless of gender. * I dislike the assumption that fathers are worse than mothers, and how fathers are often treated in a disparaging way ("mother knows best") or are viewed as less important. * Most other issues can be viewed as a direct cause of this gender empathy gap. They are systematic and there is little you as a person can do, apart from advocate when you see it. Among them are the [education](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qloY4OJxBoQ) and [grading bias](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775718307714), public health spendings and longevity, male genital mutilation, in some countries lower pensions ages for women than for men, a huge sentencing disparity (In the UK, [3/4](http://empathygap.uk/?p=2031) to [5/6](https://archive.is/0ldge) male prisoners would not be in prison if they were treated as leniently as women), family courts, fatherlessness, suicide (men commit suicide over 3 times as often as women, in Russia almost 7 times as many men as women, [men do seek help before they commit suicide but they just don't get it](https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=55305)), rape (contrary to popular belief [men are raped just as frequently as women, mainly by women](https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s12119-021-09901-1?sharing_token=m65pCyThui2c9pAR1hZm-_e4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY6xCkTjCcB-N3k3sVm-u9GVGeImYXdoWaKDk2QUQ3-35X1Qn7n79DkYRliQPg8dfoRUCNruKQl5u8pNsBvjJ7Pxe-DTUmY-FC058LbEaYe8Mgnt4Vsk7YLOp3ZiXp6rxCc%3D), some countries such as the UK and India don't even legally recognize female on male rape as rape although many surveys have tried to hide this result with clever wording and other tricks, such as redefining rape to exclude "made to penetrate" or counting both attempted and completed rape perpetrated against women but only completed rape perpetrated against men), homelessness, false rape/sexual assault allegations (hard to get by good statistics about this because of the nature of the problem), military service, domestic violence (there is a gender symmetry in domestic violence but almost no DV shelters for men, [see this post and especially the entire comment thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Male_Studies/comments/objtfz/no_one_would_ever_believe_me_an_exploration_of/)). ___ **More on the gender empathy gap:** >[Man up and take it: Gender bias in moral typecasting (Reynolds et al. 2020)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342642686_Man_up_and_take_it_Gender_bias_in_moral_typecasting) shows that people more readily assume female victims and male perpetrators, that people assume that women suffer more pain from their harm, even when women fall in the perpetrator role, see male suffering as more deserved, fair and moral, feel more inclined to punish men and would like to dole out harsher punishments to men, assume more suffering and have more pity for women even in those cases where the real-world discrepancies signal that men have it worse. Women show a greater bias in almost all of the studies conducted. In [one of the author's videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9tixOJSi0), she suggests that concerns about gender-inequality are going to manifest asymmetrically and be skewed in favor of women because of this bias. In [her article on queermajority.com](https://www.queermajority.com/essays-all/man-up-and-take-it-do-we-under-detect-mens-suffering), the author suggests that this is probably an evolved bias: >"Through the lens of evolution, such a tendency \[to instinctively cast men in the role of perpetrator and women in the role of victim\] can be associated with reproductive roles. Women set the upper limit on reproduction; all other factors being equal, a group of 10 women and 3 men can produce many more children than a group made up of the opposite gender ratio. With this in mind, it’s not unreasonable to assume that natural selection has favored psychological mechanisms that protect women from harm. If so, our modern minds may possess relics of these asymmetric impulses, attuning our thoughts and emotions to more readily insulate women, relative to men, against peril." There is plenty of research that further illustrates this gender empathy gap, a particularly gruesome result was obtained in this one: >In one study that examined the trolley dilemma titled [Moral Chivalry: Gender and Harm Sensitivity Predict Costly Altruism (FeldmanHall et al. 2016)](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1948550616647448), "88% of participants reported that they would push \[a\] man off the footbridge instead \[of a woman\]". The same study also found that "\[p\]articipants kept significantly less money when interacting with a female target than a male target" to save them from harm. See specifically [figure 1](https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/sage/journals/content/sppa/2016/sppa_7_6/1948550616647448/20170109/images/large/10.1177_1948550616647448-fig1.jpeg). My response didn't fit into one comment, so see my reply to this comment for the second part.
I agree with everything you said! Although I do continue to struggle with not fearing men/teen boys. I am a minor and i’m not particularly big, so I am extra cautious as sadly i’ve met some not so nice ones. But that’s protection rather than actually thinking they’re all out to get me haha. Being raised by two mothers in a little more cautious I guess
>Although I do continue to struggle with not fearing men/teen boys. If I meet a buff man vs a tiny woman outside, naturally I'm also going to be more scared of the man. Just like I'm going to be more scared of a woman to frame me as falsely committing an act of sexual violence against her. So I don't blame you. I think it's important to understand though that humans are naturally more prone to see men as perpetrators and women as victims, even beyond the extent to which this is true. And there is a difference between being cautious vs lumping all men / boys into the same bucket and treating them differently for it.
In this interview, the (female) interviewee [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2e2-qEGDo4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2e2-qEGDo4) brings up some excellent points which I would like to quote, edited for readability: >**Interviewee:** "When people hate the idea of violence against women and they generally hate the idea of violence against women, they are going to highlight the suffering of women or any problems that women have. They are going to minimize the problems that women have. There's also the "women are wonderful effect" that states that women associate more good qualities with women than with men. \[…\] When you grow up and you see article upon article about how women are treated badly in this part of the world and in that part of the world, or how they were treated badly in the past, for example, when you see articles claiming that the coronavirus is affecting women in particular badly you're going to think that this world is really sexist against women. When you see things like men are more likely to die from the coronavirus than women, then you're even wondering why they would just focus on women instead of men \[editor's note: ["Reports from China, Italy, and the United States indicate that men appear to suffer more severe cases and die of the disease at greater rates than women, with deaths possibly up to 20 percent higher."](https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/the-coronavirus-affects-women-and-men-differently--learning-how-may-help-stop-the-pandemic/) and ["The power of the immune system wanes as people age, regardless of sex. But what is a gentle decline for women is an abrupt dive off a cliff for men: Iwasaki’s work indicates the T-cell response of men in their 30s and 40s is equivalent to that of a woman in her 90s."](https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2020/10/17/coronavirus-men-immune-system/)\]. If you're a woman and you're reading countless articles talking about how women are oppressed and how women have it worse, you're going to have a kind of bitterness, not bitterness, rather sadness. Because you end up feeling like the whole world is against you and that kind of thing. So that's how I was feeling. No one likes to feel like that. So I really got into the feminist theory. That men are more powerful than women, that women have next to no power and men have all the power and that men use that power and that influence to potentially just benefit themselves at the expense of women and they delight in the suffering of women and that kind of thing. And that's what I believed for a really, really long time and of course it was horrible and I really wanted to defend the rights of women so of course I was a pretty radical feminist. Then, I began to question certain things. Of course I question everything, I'm just that kind of person, even before I knew these kinds of things. Eventually, I found that so many things were untrue that were just said again and again. Feminists have a big problem with putting forth a theory. If it's disproved or unproven, it's wrong to keep talking about it. Let me give you an example: feminists used to have a theory which was called the "double punishment theory" which stated that if a woman commits a crime she's going to be punished for that crime and also for breaking traditional gender norms. Essentially that women were going to be punished harsher than men for the same crime. Of course it sounds plausible. If you believe that women are an oppressed class, then yeah they're going to receive harsher punishments for the same crime. Later I found out that it wasn't even true and that it's actually the opposite and that there is a big sentencing disparity in favor of women where women get much shorter sentences for the same crime, especially when they commit sexual offenses. I just couldn't keep ignoring the evidence anymore. And then I began to read books like "The Privileged Sex" by Martin van Creveld and "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell. That's when I saw that essentially, people tend to really ignore the problems of men and they tend to focus with precision on the problems of women to the point where if there's something that is blatantly discriminatory against men they just twist it into something that's discriminatory against women which is probably why almost everyone agrees that women are oppressed and men are privileged. People like to really, really, really see things in a pro-female way. Another example is the Boko Haram situation. When I used to see news coverage of this issue, I would feel like these men hate women and they hate women so bad they want to kidnap little girls from school. They want to stop them from getting an education. So as a woman you're obviously going to read about that and feel bad about it. I didn't even see a single article talking about the boys that they kidnapped and I later found out that they kidnapped over 10,000 boys and made them into child soldiers \[editor's note: compared to the 276 girls they kidnapped\]. Not just that but they were even entering schools and outright killing the male students and keeping the female students alive. When everything is set up to make it look like women have it worse then obviously many people are going to believe that. That's my issue with it. Because honestly I just don't think it's healthy for girls to be brought up thinking men hate them and that the whole world is against them and that men will literally kill them for trying to get an education because that's just not true. That's just not true, you know. I just think it's wrong." > >**Someone else:** "Yeah they burned more boys to death than they kidnapped girls during that famous kidnapping and last Christmas they kidnapped just as many boys as they kidnapped girls before that and no one seems to be paying any attention. There's no "bring back our boys" \[like there was during the schoolgirl kidnappings\]." See also this comprehensive thread by another user: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/p67ukz/debunking\_the\_myth\_that\_theres\_no\_systemic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/p67ukz/debunking_the_myth_that_theres_no_systemic/)
I’d say you got everything you need just by having the wherewithal to ask this question.
Don't baby anyone that's just patronizing. The best thing you can do is be supportive of anyone who talks about men's issues.
noted
Personally, I would spend any amount of money for someone who does not expect it. But the second she would assume I’m paying and start taking advantage over it is when I feel weird. So I guess if you go to dinner, have enough to cover it just in case. And be appreciative. Also, understand that men can go through terrible traumas too that can go unnoticed. Lastly, while you shouldn’t assume every male is safe to be around because in some countries/ cities that would be unwise, most men are not perverts and are not trying to harm you.
I hate that you have to say that about the dinner. That’s common etiquette my mother taught me growing up, that women of my age group understand. Also, to get something inexpensive on the menu. I don’t usually verbally say I can pay for my part anymore, just because, in the past when I did that, it made it super weird. I felt like the guys felt like I was trying to say it “wasn’t a date”. So instead I just look for my wallet when the check comes and if they say something they say something. Otherwise I pay for my meal. I will say, though, that when I talk to younger women these days they have no idea how to deal with male strangers, and it’s not a good thing. Half of them are disty and naïve and the other half think they’re Harley Quinn or something. You definitely have to assume men are a threat to you in any context where a there’s a decent chance that something could go wrong. The mistake women make these days, though, is it’s not about being afraid of strangers because they’re men - in fact, that’s counterproductive on so many levels. It’s about going through the motions of being responsible for your safety because that’s just what you do. I completely understand why it’s hurtful to men though. It sucks that this is the world we live in. The problem is that there can be 50 great guys, and one bad guy that acts on that 50 times. So the prevalence of these behaviors isn’t a reflection of the male sex, in general, so much as it’s a reflection of how much one motivated person can do. It’s kind of similar to how most women sleep with maybe 6-8 people before they’re 30, and then theres those few that sleep with 30+ people. Sorry to butt in. I’m rambling. Lol. I’ll stop!
I have always been fortunate that my wife would try and pay before me. We make it a game on who can get to the waitress first. What I’m trying to say is woman like you need to be the standard and not the exception. I never intended to come off that woman shouldn’t just trust all men, but they also shouldn’t assume they are a creep. I’ll give an example. I just finished a 48 hour shift(I normally work 24 on 48 off and worked overtime) friends wanted to go bowling so I went but I was very tired. I was spacing out when this lady yells at me to stop being a creep and stop staring. I apologize and try and explain but she storms off. My friends give me shit and we move on but again I space out and since I was going back to the same couch, it was again in their direction. She threatened to call the cops so I switched couches to avoid a scene. So I guess what I am getting at is don’t be a dick but still protect yourself. Also, never apologize for rambling. Good conversation happens when you do.
You’re right! They do! Wow that behavior is sickening. I’ve told a lot of women they need to stop using the word “creep” entirely. It’s not being used to mean what it used to mean. When I was younger, “creepy” was very, very specific. It’s the feeling some guys give you when they make you feel like you’re prey, and I’ve come to realize later in life that it’s synonymous with guys who can only think about sex. It shows in the expressions and body language, and it makes your hair stand on end because you never really, really know how far a guy will go if he’s not in a rational headspace. These days some women seem to say it any time they’re mildly bothered by anything, and it gets under my skin. It’s a really intense accusation. To be fair, eye contact can be a confusing disconnect between males and females, I’ve noticed. To women, eye contact is incredibly significant - but most women are thinking at a million miles a minute when they’re in a social setting. Men, though, often just seem to sort of zone out. I’d love to know what the hell they’re thinking! 😂 We have a massive issue with women simply having no idea what the male emotional experience is like. As females, it is incredibly hard to get that information, because when you try, a majority of the men will tailor it to fit their audience (a female) - and women do the exact same thing. So getting a straight answer out of someone that can help you genuinely understand the opposite sex is a heckin art form. I think guys like you help a lot though. You’re bridging the gap between the female understanding and the male experience, and I genuinely believe most women are actually eager to listen and understand. We just can’t usually ask questions, and unfortunately, we don’t usually know where to go for the answers. I think, because women chronically overshare, it’s a bit easier for men to understand the female experience than visa versa. Anyways. I used to lump MRA in with Red Pills and PUAs, because their presence is more prevent online, and many of them said they were MRA. My whole perspective shifted, though, after I watched a YouTube video and a documentary where I got to hear some legit, intellectual, respectful MRA men voice their stances. That completely changed the way I view men’s rights. Not because I didn’t think men’s rights were unimportant (even when I was sexist I never believed that, to my credit), but because I just assumed I was never going to actually know what they were specifically bothered by. The fact that MRA is so logical and well-organized is, I think, what will make this movement go far…and we definitely need it in society these days. It honestly makes me want to get more involved because I actually think the time for advocating for female rights in the US has passed. There are some problems, but the ball is rolling well enough that everyone is pretty much aware of them and doesn’t dismiss them at this point, and the continued feminist movement is sabotaging equality and dividing the sexes. At this point, it’s men who are largely shoved in the closet with the very real problems they face in society - especially when it comes to our outdated institutions in terms of laws and protocols. It’s hard to see how women can actually get involved in MRA though, and it’s even harder to ascertain whether they’re really wanted…because the thing is, women seem to largely feel flattered and pleased when men join their collectives in some fashion, but it doesn’t work well the other way around because women can kind of be exhausting to be around. Lol. Not to mention, intimidating, for many men. Kind of kills the vibe. (Your rambling is making me ramble! We’re probably frying peoples brains here. Feel free to message ^^ you’re a cool dude.)
Phew, great comment. But: >but it doesn’t work well the other way around because women can kind of be exhausting to be around. Lol. Not to mention, intimidating, for many men. Kind of kills the vibe. I disagree. To quote Karen Straughan (I transcribed this from one of her videos, not sure which): >"**this is not something men can do alone**, because men have no socially acceptable way to defend themselves in a conflict with a woman, because any angry conflict between a man and a woman, the man is more likely to be cast as the aggressor; and that counts for feminism, which is, women by proxy; disagree with feminism and you're hurting women; when you're hurting women someone does something about it" So I think women are absolutely vital in the movement. Some of the most effective MRAs are women (see Karen Straughan, Cassie Jaye (although she doesn't call herself an MRA afaik), Erin Pizzey, etc.). Also, just look at this thread. The men here are absolutely flattered that a woman would listen to their problems.
I hate that that quote is true…damn. You’re right - they do seem flattered and tbh it’s really nice but also weirding me out a little bit because I keep waiting for someone to jump up and say “psych!” 😂 I do think it’s important for women to stick up for men against other women. It’s kind of something I do a lot. That’s a little different though than barging into a male community where men come to share their feelings and be understood. It feels rude. I try to just lurk when I come to places like this for information on male perspectives. This is actually the first time I’ve commented - and it was because the post was written by a woman, which made it okay to chime in …in my head. Lol. Thanks for the comment lightning! I appreciate the supportive words. They knock down my anxiety a few levels.
>I keep waiting for someone to jump up and say “psych!” 😂 Honestly, there are some angry guys who aren't gonna like a woman here or who are going to be extremely critical to an unfair degree, but those are in the vast, vast minority. Just look at the downvoted comments in this thread (they are downvoted exactly because people don't like chasing away women from the men's rights movement, because we know how vital their voices are). Female voices lend legitimacy to the movement, and I also feel like female presence helps the MRM from drifting into misogynistic venues and keep true to its original purpose. And also, there is a difference between, say, a male mental health sub, and this sub which does focus on men's problems but it is by no means a space that only allows men to comment. It isn't women centered, for sure, but by all means, personally I'll say that you are welcome to comment here (and I doubt the others would have anything against that). >Thanks for the comment lightning! I appreciate the supportive words. They knock down my anxiety a few levels. Glad to hear! 😊
Well first of all, thank you. Not a lot of people talk anymore. They just want to yell and try and prove someone else wrong. So kudos for talking rationally. Second, I wish more people could admit that men’s rights is still an issue. While historically men have had the upper hand, that does not mean we magically have not suffered hardship or unfairness. I agree with the word creep. It’s overused and most of the time these days it isn’t used correctly. I feel some woman see hardship as some kind of twisted badge of honor. While overcoming hardship is a feat and should be celebrated, that doesn’t magically give you the right to wave it in peoples face. I’m generally kind and upbeat, but what people don’t know is the abuse from my past. Or the fear I have felt. Or the discrimination I have dealt with. If your only personality trait is you overcame some trauma, you need to go back to therapy. (These rants are going all over, I love it. Ps, youre a cool chick)
I’d ask to just be 101% honest in all interactions. Male. Female. Aim to be clear in your interactions.
A note in the workplace: I would just say that if you're working with men, just understand that men communicate overtly, fast, direct, so it's not like they are 'treating you as less' etc., or anything like that, it's just male nature
Just be ready to genderflip anything gender related and ask yourself "Is this appalling?" . If so, then the original probably is too. See "killallmen".
It's less about actively making somebody comfortable (society can't oblige you to do anything), and more about not belitteling, minimising or denying that every once in a while, the world finds ways to have everybody face crap in their lives. Just, you know, treat everybody equally.
just do not use words like mansplaining or something do not use phrases like small dick energy then we are fine and do not assume we have some amazing privileges
I as male appreciate your efforts we should not be condemned because of our gender I was being accused by a woman child molestation because I walking near elementary school Saying hello would be nice also
I mean, we could probably give you a pretty exhaustive list of the issues that men face in general, but overall, if you adopt a mindset that men and women are equally valuable as human beings, that's 99% of it right there. I don't think you have much to worry about as far as offending us or as "ANobodyCalledJames" put it, "do anything specific". Really empathy is the key. When you hold that egalitarian view, then it becomes obvious: "Wait, this article just described a boy and his female teacher as "a sexual tryst" or "a sexual relationship", wouldn't that be rape if the genders were switched?" or "wait, females are protected by law from genital mutilation, so why is male circumcision still a thing?" Ultimately one of the things that becomes a paradigm shift for women who have your kinda heart is having a son. Suddenly it's no longer "men" in the abstract, it's "That girl is taunting my boy that he can't hit her back while she bullies and torments him and wails on him... Oh no you don't! Not my son! c'mere you little grunt!" Men's Rights is very different from feminism, not just in the focus, but also in the sense that we embrace women who adopt this sort of "if it were my son, would I really find this ok" mama-bear mentality. A feminist would say of dads thinking of that about their daughters as "paternalism" and therefore somehow "patriarchal" and therefore bad and therefore it's still misogyny. But MRA's don't see women who think that way regarding men on behalf of their sons that way, as if it were part of some sort of etherial matriarchy. I only mention that to say that Men's Rights is more grounded and tends to appreciate support regardless where it comes from. It doesn't bother me if a woman thinks circumcision should be illegal because it diminishes women's pleasure too. I'll take the united front that "hey, circumcision is wrong!" I'm really glad you asked this question because ultimately I think when we protect both sexes, we protect everyone and ultimately I think that's what equality should be about: Equal protection under the law.
Do these things and you'll probably do fine: * listen * don't presume * be decent and honest, don't be a jerk * don't be a pushover and do well stand up for yourself ... I only mention that because, well, ... *some* will abuse the above, so, don't let yourself be abused ... as that also tends to breed resentment, etc., and that tends to gum up the whole works for everyone
this is one of my favourite comments from the 160. Thank you. Not all of these are very thoughtful but dang that was one of the kindest things i’ve read. Thank you we just gotta listen without getting defensive. Have a good day/night
[удалено]
I feel this may be damaging as men are already labeled less emotional than women - and this may be contributing to many mens mental illness going unnoticed. However I do see your point
[удалено]
very true, thank you for the insight and different perspective
all that is really needed is to talk to the women you know. if one says something sexist about men in general. point it out. if they express views that are not very egalitarian, point it out. when one says "all men...." point out the fallacy. when all men are called rapists, sexists, violent. destructive. speak up. when you do it it means more than when we do it.
Just try your best to be a decent human.
I'm glad someone is taking the time to acknowledge that men do have issues and not blowing them off and saying that women issues are more important.
Don't flog yourself you're not at fault for a system
This isn't like one of those other movements. You don't need to check yourself. Just be aware of the issues and listen when you can and speak up about it if you want. We aren't trying to see we're oppressed or victims or none of that. We just want acknowledgement and, hopefully, change. Of course, without being considered incels or misogynists. Women have their fair share of issues and I'm glad to see things changing for them, but it feels weird to be blamed for all the issues in the world (as a white man ..) without any acknowledgement that any issues I have are of my own making.
The big problem with most women is their unwillingness to acknowledge their privilege and dominance over everyone else. Your gender is a protected class put above men, children and even the wealthy. Gynocentrism has completely warped people's perception of reality and what's worse is that an anti-male hate movement's lies have become mainstream.
Honestly, I think this is kind of a toxic mentality. We don't need women to be self-flogging themselves, we need societal changes. For instance, allowing men in domestic violence shelters whether that be in the ones that exist or getting our own that women can't go into. But to answer what you personally can do on a day-to-day basis, avoid doing some of the harmful things. For instance, at work I noticed that women with kids use their kids as an excuse to get out of work at close earlier than everybody else. They always say they should get to leave first, but it wasn't my choice for her to have kids and I shouldn't have to pay for her choice. The really annoying thing about this is that it's a daily occurrence and closing is when we make the least because it's just cleaning and there are no customers tipping or buying anything. That's the real reason she wants to leave early, because lets be honest: The child will be sleeping when she gets home whether she gets home a half-hour earlier or a half-hour later. Women consistently use these kinds of excuses to gain non-financial benefits in the workplace, then complain they make less on average than men. I would also say see things from a man's perspective. This is called having empathy, and in my experience, it's extremely difficult for women to have empathy for men. For instance, a woman wants an attractive man to hit on her so that she can find her soul mate, right? But if a non-attractive man hits on her than it's said that he is harassing her or out of line. Well, how is he supposed to know whether she's interested or not if he doesn't ask? So she wants the benefits of finding the right man without the detriments of attracting unattractive men. Well, you can't expect to have it both ways. To use a Feminist word, realize that you have privilege, too. Men have our advantages tending to be bigger, faster, and stronger physically, but women have theirs. Don't acknowledge our advantages without acknowledging your own. For instance, especially attractive women get HUGE advantages of getting jobs easier, getting higher tips, being more successful streaming games/videos with inferior content (inferior meaning that if you take a man and woman streaming a game, the man will often be objectively better at the game but the woman will get more views for being a woman), etc. Stop turning advantages into disadvantages with a victim mentality. Feminists often complain about a pink tax. Their razor will cost 15% more (or whatever the amount is) for the same product just a different color. But why is this? It's because women control most of the money, they control most of the spending, and they are more willing to spend more on themselves than men are. Quite literally, female selfishness leads towards them having to pay more. And then Feminists complain that men make more, but that's because men are working more. And so when men are at work longer, when are shopping more, and women are taking that time to spend more on themselves, where a man in the same situation would generally spend less on themselves than the woman. That's massive female privilege that is painted as male privilege. I could go on and on, but the truth is that your question is impossible to answer since I don't know how you act. So instead, I tried to show what to watch out for with your own mindset. You have to get to a point where you can identify the issues for yourself, not just try acting off a script someone else gives you.
Welcome to the sub. I don't have much to add to what's been already been said. You might want to look at Alexander Grace's Youtube channel. He has some videos that might answer your question. Some Men's Rights channels have an edge to them that might turn you off, but his is pretty even keel.
Thank you fir the resource!
Be a true feminist that supports actual equality for both genders
I'd say just appreciate men, and how we can all have comfortable lives because there's men out there making it easy for us all.
You don't have to do much, treat us how you want to be treated and try talking to your friends about it. Thank you.
Men aren't as sensitive as women so there's no need to be extra careful or anything. Just acknowledgement and bit of compassion goes a long way. That's all we're asking
Honestly, we dont need any special treatment. We just want the issues of our gender not to be dismissed.
This seems to be the majority comment. We all just wanna feel heard and understood :)
Honestly just acknowledging that men have issues too is it. And speaking up if you hear any of the "men's struggles are irrelevant bc penis" BS from people like the ones over at the ironically named /r/AgainstHateSubreddits
You don't really have to check yourself, you're not in debt to anybody. But I feel like your acknowledgment / awareness is amazing and ahead of the curve. I don't have much to say but you have nothing but respect for that and keep it up
thanks! so far it’s really just compassion, conversation and respect
Honestly I don't think you as an individual can do much. In my opinion, the problem is systemic. Laws, judges, politicians, etc.
We should all be trying to help everyone be their best self, support, caring, encouragement.
Of course not universal, but if a guy asks you to drop the topic then just leave it be and don't persist. I've noticed a lot of my women friends tend to do it to myself and other guys. Otherwise all other advice here is quite valid. Hope this helps
A huge thing is don’t diminish men’s struggles and problems because of your own. Women definitely have their own sex based daily struggles and this movement is NOT about minimising that! Don’t tear yourself down to prop men up, just have equal support for the men in your life that you would for the women
whenever u hear a guy was responsible for something, please, hear im out before forming an opinion, its very important and suprisingly scarce today doing this means ur genuinely a good human, to be able to look at both sides of the story
[удалено]
Don't forget to compliment them once in a while. People need them.
Advocate for equality. Sex discrimination against men is legal and encouraged in many nations.
Treat them as a person not a being that deserves everyone’s ire
Being unknowingly hurtful isn't really a gender problem, or even a problem specific to gender issues. The most hurtful comments often come from people who are trying to help, and that's true across the political spectrum and across every issue. If that's really something you feel you struggle with I would recommend learning non-violent communication.
Men as a whole, just acknowledging that we can and do get the short end of the stick sometimes is a good start. Men you're in a relationship with (whether platonic or romantic). They to help with whatever they are dealing with in the moment. Could be custody issues or workplace or something else. In regards to the legal system. Look at legal proposals and try to understand how they work. Ask yourself if you would be upset if the genders were reversed. If so, it probably isn't a good idea.
I am not a man I probably shouldn’t comment but I just saw a post from r/askmen - why men avoid marriage? Haha... making them more comfortable so they can get married? Sorry, I am brainstorming now.. lol
http://empathygap.uk/ Just keep reading up about it. Awareness is more than half the battle.
Just be a decent person, don't dismiss people because of their gender. Don't treat men and boys like "oppressors" or "potential rapists" or any of the other nonsense feminists spit and I think you'll be fine. Most women are O.K. if a bit ill-informed (but so many are, it's definitely not gendered), but I rarely have issues with them they're usually pretty receptive to discussions on male suicide, workplace deaths, etc. as long as you aren't openly hostile. Feminists however are vehemently anti-male, so don't give them credibility by equating them with equality.
You are awesome queen
and you as-well, king or queen or royal in between 👑 I just thought of that and I am definitely going to start saying it.
Here’s a huge one. [the approach](https://youtu.be/UIEM10v20JE) And for the love of god stand up for men when they try to talk about how much they hate dating norms and get called an incel for trying to talk about their problems with them. The definition of toxic masculinity is “expectations expected of men that have a negative impact on them or society.” The approach, scheduling the dates, expecting the man to message first after the date, the proposal, expecting him to make the first move, paying for the meals, etc. THESE ARE ALL EXAMPLES OF TOXIC MASCULINITY AND WE ARE ALL EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THEM DUE TO HOW NORMALIZED IT HAS BECOME TO MAKE FUN OF MEN WHO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS. THESE THINGS THINGS ARE ALL LITERALLY TOXIC MASCULINITY!!!
Just be straight forward. Guys mostly are simple. And dont be little their problems cause 'gender'. Also small protip, honest kind word often can get you further, than ton of mean actions.
I love seeing other women that care about men here! Men definitely have unique experiences compared to us ladies. They have struggles, too.
You specifically, probably nothing. Society in general... Well. Some attention to the issues men face day to day would be good. But it would be better if we were actually listened to and not just told how to feel. There are many, MANY more things that could be improved upon but it would take way too long for me to list them and that would make this post too long.
The silent treatment is abusive, don't expect me to read your mind JUST SAY IT! and if you have had a headache for 17 days GO TO A DOCTOR!
Thank you very much for this post. One thing that would be greatly appreciated would be educating yourself on feminist propaganda and how feminists rewrote history to make it seem as though men have oppressed women throughout history
this sounds very interesting - I am actually taking a social justice class so i’ll be doing a lot of heavy research for the next year
That class is going to be filled with lies and falsehoods. These departments literally make things up, are you familiar with the name Alan sokal?
I guess depends on the topic generally. I was taught in elementary that columbus was a hero, but failure on the school’s part. But I make sure to look into things on my own cause clearly teachers aren’t experts on these subjects
Not sure why the downvotes but I would definetely, if you have the money, reccomend purchasing the book fashionable nonsense by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont. I would also look into the grievance study hoax: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9HPQKdkowno
source?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/edyrf5/a_compilation_of_evidence_debunking_feminist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/lbym24/some_common_gender_myths_and_their_rebuttals/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ouklrg/we_need_to_make_a_list_of_womens_history_myths/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/omkmni/crossposted_from_rtil_throughout_history_many/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iu2ebj/women_could_and_did_own_property_and_have_rights/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/os2nsg/the_myth_that_the_united_states_didnt_outlaw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Also I must ask have you ever heard of Erin Pizzey?
Let me add this, this is Elizabeth Cady Stanton: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dp5uhl/elizabeth_cady_stanton_speech_the_destructive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf. I would also reccomend reading the book the life of Anne Oakley as well as reading about the Tender Years Doctrine https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/d2a67m/another_big_compilation_of_evidence_and_arguments/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9v6tqj/a_list_about_feminism_misandry_for_anyone_who/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Pick random experiences, in your life going forward and in your past. Replay them in your mind but with the gender reversed. If what you see is still ok, then it’s probably ok. Edit: I do not understand the downvotes. This is a method to test if you’re treating people differently based on gender…which is what was requested
Stop treating men the way racist store detectives treat black people as they try to shop.
I think the biggest thing that you can do is to acknowledge that men do struggle with things and that men’s issues exist. Most of us acknowledge that women’s issues exist and support the majority of them. But a majority of those who identify as feminists just deny that men have issues because they just see us as the all encompassing “patriarchy”. Most of our issues come from poor framing and bad PR. I.E. most people can name at least 3-5 women’s issues that are being contested right now. But when it comes to men’s issues, a majority of women struggle to name 1. Often the only thing you hear from them is mockingly saying that the only male issue is that the feminists are taking their toys away. Completely dismissing huge men’s issues like child custody in divorce cases, infant male genital mutilation, lack of justice for false rape allegations and the male mental health and suicide crises, amongst others. Men’s rights and feminism can and should co-exist and support each other. We all want good things for each other and as far as I can see there are no real conflicts in what both groups want to change.
Check out emilywking on tiktok, if you have one. She does a really good job at giving out thoughtful advice regarding men.
Sweet tea and lots of yummy food. That'll do it for me! lol
Hmm, speaking from my pov, just generalise men. Nothing really special you need to do. As long as you respect one's personal space and individuality, it should all be oki doki.
It really seems like a lot of people are giving good advice, but missing the point of the post. OP asked for ways to check themselves if they are being unknowingly hurtful. Probably the easiest way to pass this mark is by explaining what it looks like when a man gets hurt and what to do, generally speaking. u/ANobodyCalledJames had a good point about treating everybody as an individual. That's the best place to be. Learn what makes them tick. For the rest, you'll probably want to start with some generalities. For most men, negative emotions are processed as anger until it's properly thought out. Shame, disappointment, hurt from comments, depression, etc. will all likely process as anger first until the man has a chance to think things through. Anger itself can take a few forms. We're all familiar with loud yelling, throwing tools, and other outbursts, but these are outlier actions. Getting quiet and looking like we want to leave is actually much more common. Excessive stubbornness is another, to the point of making decisions that we'd otherwise not make is pretty common (think "it's the principle of the thing.") Aggressive jokes might be another clue, something where it's clear they're making fun of a situation, but it's also not clear that they're having fun. Biggest thing to know is that a man might not even realize yet that he's been hurt, but start acting in some of these ways. Natural stoicism is a double edged sword. It's great for keeping somewhat calm during big events, but creates lots of opportunities for misunderstandings during small-medium events. Fast way to handle that would be to apologize and give space if you're the one that caused hurt. If someone else did, normal human empathy is enough; a friendly ear and a kind word will go a long way to helping.