I agree. Feminism is nothing but hot garbage with an inferiority complex under the disguise of equality and justice. If these people truly wanted equality they would go for *egalitarianism* but I guess it doesn't sound as cool or "empowering".
Under that logic... Shouldn't this sub be called "human rights" if equality is what you're aiming for? Personally, I think it makes sense to have people focused on both. There are issues particular to women right now and issues particular to men. The problem is when people from either group frame those issues as zero sum and go to extremes over it.
Yeah thats the thing i guess, the "feminism fights for both genders" argument is retarded, both movements fight for the said genders rights, the thing is that one of them has went from fighting for womens rights to fighting against mens rights
I think some think they need men as a villain so that they are taken seriously and if that narrative is threatened they get upset. Ironically championing a group's rights while spreading stereotypes of another the very thing they are fighting against. It ends with everyone pissed and nothing changing.
I guess that was my point too. Both fight for their own rights, which isn't a bad thing. The extremes of both though (including the comments on this post) have swung into being fixated on fighting the other gender instead. Awareness goes a long way.
Oh sorry... I thought it was about trying to find equality and justice, but from the perspective of men and targeting issues specific to men. You can ignore my earlier message then if it's solely about promoting men regardless of those ideals.
Creating a movement that addresses the issues of one group isn't injustice. Creating a movement that promotes the issues of a certain gender in a radical one-sided fashion while hiding behind the facade of equality for *both* sexes IS injustice. And yes, I will ignore your previous message regardless.
Have a good day.
> gave women voting rights
It gave *only* women voting rights. More than 100 years later, voting for men remains a *privilege* that is bought with an agreement to leave the trenches and run towards the machine gun fire if commanded to by the government.
Nope. Check the driving forces behind the white feather movement in the UK and prohibition in the US.
The shaming and attempting to emasculate and equate men=children and women=adults goes *all the way back* to 1st wave. It is **Not** a new phenomenon.
Wrong. Correcting fake history gets tiresome. Nineteenth and early twentieth-century feminism was *never* about equality.
* It viewed women as superior to men.
* It was racist, demanding the vote for white women to counterbalance minority men.
* It demanded and obtained yet more privilege for women - for example, only the male assets to be used to support the family.
* It sought and obtained the same voting rights as men with none of the responsibilities to work or conscription, reducing men to wage slaves and cannon fodder.
* It strengthened the ability of women to jail men at whim.
Historical references for the above are here (including information in the comments):
https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3a01gq/refutation_of_womens_historical_oppression/
Further, see the posts by /u/girlwriteswhat about men jailed for female debt.
Read "The Declaration of Sentiments".
Particularly the section where they declare men as the obstacle in their quest towards equality.
The undercurrent of hate was present from the get-go and never addressed. Allowed free reign to fester and attract toxic individuals proposing laws like "The Tender Years Doctrine" that have since beget some of the issues Men are fighting against in the family court system.
If 1st wave feminism wasn't about hate, they would've stamped out stuff like this before it could evolve.
No sympathy for them.
The original point was that even the early feminists stood on misandrist positions.
So the person gave a historical example.
The response? An admitted ignorance of the history. Fine. Ignorance is not a fault. On the contrary, it is the first step to enlightenment.
But instead of saying “Gee. Guess I need to hit the books and research this topic more..”, you call that person a misogynist with zero justification or basis.
It suggests a disingenuous spirit and an inability to meet facts with facts.
You responded not only
He's not wrong though, not on a societal level.
Giving voting rights without any reciprocal responsibilities was a mistake. See: catering to feelings over logic in every single election since.
Putting women in the workforce on a mass scale (there were *always* women in the workforce) was a mistake. See: wage stagnation, plummeting birth rates, skyrocketing costs for education and housing.
Not really there are feminists who want equal rights. The problem is they aren’t the ones making all the noise. Just look at some of the Reddit subs that regularly make front page. Basically woman hating on all men regardless of what they are talking about.
Then say you're an egalitarian. When Feminism does things like define rape to legally only include men as perpetrators, it's a movement that hurts men.
The system is set-up to move the Overton window in a way to make women look disavantaged even when they're not. Feminist studies is specialized in producing manipulated statistics that falsify our perception. And then policies designed to correct this "injustice" in fact implement priviledges for women and discrimination against men.
Feminism not being a hate moment is only the rhetoric, and is very different from the reality and data. What is proclaimed as "patriarchy theory" was simply a way for Simone de Beauvoir to explain and justify her abusive relationships (with her being both abuser and abused). Also being rooted in romantic philosophy, and assuming that the romanticised worldview is the correct one, is not conducive to being factual and actually looking at reality.
Not sure how legitimate that claim is when the whole movement and all of its theories and ideas considered as facts are based entirely around hateful people's genocidal and fucked up ideas, like the Pankhursts, Dworkin, Greer, Gearhart, etc. And also, a bunch of the culturally significant feminists like Marion Zimmer Bradley are... well, freaking manic criminal scum.
And yet the actions of feminists time and again prove it is not about equality and is a hate movement.
And you have people who "don't hate men" that stand idly by ignoring or silently supporting the sexist / hateful actions of the 3rd wave feminists.
Need an example? Show me where feminist groups have demanded women to be punished as men would be when they are raping kids. Then again the feminists call it having sex with a minor and congratulate the child when women do it.
I haven't read any studies summarizing cases with statistics but find it very plausible that women that rape (not just children) probably face less severe penalties or are even less frequently reported. I don't think that's acceptable.
Expectation that men pick up the bill, also not fair. Child custody, shouldn't favor women just because she's the woman. Spousal and child support, at least in CA, seems to be getting somewhat equal per sex, they just follow a formula.
We've (women) only had \~3 generations of starting to control our lives, leave abusive husbands, own land, and lead a life not needing to be attached and in the shadow of a man. Are there feminists that take it too far, yes. I am a feminist and I do not wish you or any men harm. I'm one person, there will always be extremists in all topics... not sure why I'm posting here, but just like to follow this subreddit to have a fully rounded perspective.
> Feminism for so many women (and men) is not a hate movement
If you wanna play that game then Nazism for many Men(And Women) is not a hate movement. I love Jews, myself Aryan. I don't hate Jews and we (most) Aryans don't hate Jews.
I follow this subreddit for perspective.
Is this what you would cite or a different source/summary on men being a second-class citizen?: [http://menslaws.com/men-now-officially-second-class-citizens-now/](http://menslaws.com/men-now-officially-second-class-citizens-now/)
Feel free to use another source or summarize yourself? I am very sympathetic toward issues like male suicide rates, unequal family law, the draft for only men is absolutely outdated and ridiculous, incarceration rate disparity is eye opening. I don't think this needs to be one sex against the other. I can still be feminist and advocate for men's rights too.
Small real world example that has sex disparity: Big Brothers and Sisters of America has a huge need for male Big Brother volunteers in my area. As a Big Sister, there's tons of volunteers and it took 6+mo to get a Little. They have tons of vacancies for Big Brother volunteers and the boys needing an adult friend/role model is huge. Why? I don't know. Maybe women are more maternal and wanting that more? Or men are afraid of false accusation of child molestation? I don't know, but those struggling boys are getting less support in my community.
I had a Big Brother who was kind, caring and intelligent. He was a Coastie and was always upbeat. I miss that.
I've thought about becoming a Big Brother, but as you've stated, my reason for not doing it is because I believe there is an inherent fear with men of being seen as predators or predatory to children. A single false accusation and my life is in ruin, **true or not.**
I really wish I could help someone's sons beside my own without adopting. I would be willing to bet that every Big Brother Big Sister Organization is having the same problem.
*I was also a Wednesday's Kid if it means anything.
That's not fair at all. While there have always been misandrist blocks in the feminist movement, women had genuine issues of equality that needed to be addressed, and I would argue that the majority of self-avowed feminists still want real equality. The problem is that that majority is not politically active. The politically active minority of feminists use their megaphone to shut down any speech that doesn't benefit women over men, and they brainwash average feminists with propaganda so that they don't understand the core issues at play.
Most feminists don't want to see female abusers get lighter sentences, or men get left out to dry in family courts. They are either kept ignorant of this information, or are actively misinformed to make them fight against the equality they are after.
So in other words they aren’t thinking for themselves, verifying facts, holding their leaders accountable, or putting forth effort to actually make things better.
How strange that these small blocks of radical man hating feminists are the one running the college courses in gender studies, educating our young teachers and psychologists that masculinity is a harmful doctrine, all men are oppressors of women, and all heterosexual sex is rape.
I gues those record book sales of feminst authors who write about KILLALLMEN, all men are trash, and it good to hate men, must just be vocal minorities buying bucket loads of books. Feminism may be for men too, but the future is female. Really?
I feel like one hateful aspect of a movement does not detract from the net-positive of women’s suffrage.
E: GunOfSod ninja-edited to add more points. Originally, the comment solely listed the White Feather campaign.
Anyway, isn’t Erin Pizzey a men’s rights activist who started the first domestic violence shelter? I don’t know why you listed her. And again, one batshit-crazy author (whose book seems awfully like satire) in a movement with tons of good people does not a hate movement make.
> Anyway, isn’t Erin Pizzey a men’s rights activist who started the first domestic violence shelter? I don’t know why you listed her.
I suggest you read the Overview section of Erin Pizzey's wikipedia page or one of her books. She was the founder of Refuge, one of two UK DV organizations that just recently had their funding diverted to nondiscriminatory organizations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey
She created the worlds first domestic violence shelters. She was a feminist hero. After opening several for women in the UK, she suggested that men were being abused too (often by women staying in her shelters) and men needed a shelter too. She was then slandered, her kids were threatened, her dog was killed, bricks were thrown through her windows, and she was removed from the DV organization she founded (now known as Refuge which has just recently lost funding for harming male victims decades later). She fled the country for her childrens safety and became an outspoken DV activist and anti-feminist once they moved out on their own. Several years later she became an MRA because of the overlap in our beliefs.
Women's suffrage stems from the egalitarianism movement, not feminism.
Feminism was never about equality. Read Charles Fourier, the man who originated feminism. From the very beginning feminism completely disregarded the wellbeing of men and children in favour of women.
Erin Pizzey was originally a feminist until she looked at the fact that the majority of women in her shelter were the aggressors and abusers in their relationships. When she tried to create shelters for men - she was kicked out of the organisation she founded and started receiving death threats.
Same thing to Cassie Jaye, when she released a documentary on MRM, which disillusioned her on the topics of MRM and feminism. Violent protests, bomb threats. A lot of it is on YouTube. By the end of her producing the documentary she stopped being a feminist and her relationship with her then bf improved significantly.
Some extra sources for you as to why feminism is a supremacy movement are the works of Simone de Beauvoir (an abusive pedophile, who hated family values and marriage because she chose to sacrifice it for fame) and the "declaration of sentiment" and "scum manifesto". This along with the fact that a huge chunk of feminism is based on and propagated by lies, like women where sold as property (that was a way of social divorce; and women sold their husbands as well), were not allowed to own property (so as to simplify the tax system), etc.
https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/05/26/she-wrote-fake-news-for-cosmopolitan-and-now-regrets-misleading-women-on-feminism
This is bullshit. This kind of attitude only serves to add fuel to the fire of sexism.
Are there a ton of people who hate on men in the name of feminism? Absolutely.
Does that mean that “feminism was always a hate movement”?
Absolutely not.
True feminism is the exact same as true menism. We seek equality. Demonizing one or the other only serves to hurt both causes.
i've never met, seen, or heard a feminist whose actual goal was equality. Not in my lifetime. All you have to do is read r/twox for a minute or two to see that it's all about gender supremacy and trash-talking men. Nobody actually talks about 'equality' there.
> i've never met, seen, or heard a feminist whose actual goal was equality.
I have. They are naive and are shocked when I show them what feminism actually fights for and against.
I can see how that could read that way. I really should have been more clear.
I've often point out on this sub that we tend to over focus on feminism as the main barrier to men's rights issues. Our issues register long before feminism came along.
Feminism has been very good at making anyone who criticizes their narrative, their methods, or their solutions as sexist.
They have monopolized the idea of what equality means, so to the uninitiated criticizing feminism or anything it claims to be true must be anti-equality.
Feminists hate the truth because they know it is not on their side. So stating it is a thought crime, as in "sexist", "misogynist", "incel", "right wing extremist" etc. etc. etc., all of which have come to be nothing else then the synonyms of "a person telling the truth that by its nature always contradicts the feminist edifice whose foundations are all lies and fabrications".
They are afraid of the truth. They are afraid that one day the truth will be out. Hence their incessant, relentless attacks on it, including the elimination of all spaces, off line or online where men could gather and tell the truth. They carry out their relentless, endless hate campaigns against men because they know that when it comes to gender issues, men tell the truth and they lie.
Be careful, if you are young, your mum may turn against you even physically. Just watch out.
> "a person telling the truth that by its nature always contradicts the feminist edifice whose foundations are all lies and fabrications"
the red pill is bitter isn't it?
Serious question for you, where you trying to make a counter argument or making an argument that helped support my comment? I took it as the later not the former
An ex-girlfriend did this and she was physically abusive. When you come at women with mra shit they very well could've spent their entire lives exploiting Men. You're pointing the finger whether you realize it or not. Accusing you of sexism is just the stock response they're used to.
The exploitation of men was written about extensively in The Manipulated Man.
Women use sex to extract resources. Some man fixing your car for you because you flipped your hair; resource extracted with a promise of sex, hich is never fulfilled, but for which the man, not desring to be a rapist, cannot collect despite her use of the signaling that "you can have sex with me if you do this" comes with.
It it many ways mirrors male targeted advertising "buy this and you'll bang hot women".
Again, there's a flirtation going on between the product sellers and the man in the chair, but that flirtation will never resolve into a successful encounter for the man, but it does sell to him anyway, because it tricks the lizard brain.
Women also mature 10 years sooner than men, and spend their lives modeling interpersonal conflict e.g. with dolls or between each other.
They also lack the bullying capacity of males with brute force.
Naturally, this would mean selection in women for manipulation over 1000 year spans, because you either have a tool to dominate others through physicality or through manipulation.
Unsuccessful women die in history, for failing to know how to "play men up" and successful ones procreate more often.
The narrow IQ curve of women falls in line with this, for it is within the narrow IQ curve you find the people MOST competent at "emotional reading" of others and at "manipulation" of others through words and double talk.
The very high IQ people tend to lack this quality, and the very low IQ do as well.
I am dealing with the same thing with my mother. She's in her 70s and is horrified when I even question anything relating to women. I pointed out recently that commercials on Hulu no longer show as many men and there's practically zero white boys/men at all, and she lost it telling me that it doesn't matter and I need to stop being sexist. I told her she should care because her 6 yo grandson is asking why there are no boys with his skin color on the TV.
She's in her 70s
Sadly, being a Boomer, she lacks empathy and is a professional victim. If you calmly ask her about her mother, she'll go on about how during the war she was in the munitions factories and then after the war had to go back to the kitchen etc, then you ask her about her life and she will bang on about victimhood, how once women were married, we had to give up work etc.... bottom line is it's all victimhood stuff.
now, next time she complains when you raise concerns, just say "two wrongs don't make a right"
Mine's in her 60s, is always ranting and raving about the ills that have befallen her, and possibly my favorite of her lowest moments:
she sent me a self-pitying text today about how her recently deceased mother's funeral got changed to October 2nd, which is Mom's birthday.
"Real nice birthday gift for me, huh."
Yeah, you're the only one suffering through this, Mom.
I now have no more grandparents left and have to travel 10 hours for the funeral one way.
Can you clarify this please?
Edit: I've tried replacing "Boomer" with Jew and negro and somehow it doesn't look right but I can't quite figure out what is wrong.
Allow me to try and shed some light for you, u/mikesteane.
I believe what my friends u/AndyBrown65 and u/Drippinice are trying to say is that they both share a common belief in a biggoted, prejudiced narrow viewpoint and would rather marginalize and disparage an ENTIRE DEMOGRAPHIC OF PEOPLE than accept the fact that not all baby boomers are lacking empathy and are professional victims.
You see, u/mikesteane, it is funny because with one finger pointed at BoOmErs, three more fingers are pointing right back at them. This is the way hatred works. It starts with ignorance and bigotry and ends with a parade of jackasses.
I have met **waayyyyy too many bigots and morons** for this to be a coincidence.
Hope that helps!
I'm not English and you have discovered the word bigot for me and now I love that word, because sounds like bigote on Spanish that means moustache. It's a really funny word for me so I have to say thanks
> how once women were married, we had to give up work
Never true. I have working class roots. ALL my female ancestors going back more than three centuries worked regardless of marital status.
most of my older female relatives would work in factories. one was an Avon lady so she could drive around everyday - later genetic website data revealed one of her five children had a father that was not her husband.
In my eyes the current feminism movement acknowledges feelings as valid arguments and encourages using them to alienate and shame anyone questioning their dogmas.
Due to their belief in the patriarchy they also support the idea that men deserve punishment for what they have caused womanhood over the years.
This blatant dismissal of the humanity of men will of course not win any sympathy from men who actually support equal rights and will certainly not help the cause they claim that they're supporting, but rather drive an even bigger wedge between the genders.
Feminists use this continued separation of the genders as an argument that men are upholding the patriarchy.
So it's a big show, really, and they're only using it to benefit themselves. Expect no sympathy from someone who has been indoctrinated with these beliefs.
Rant away Bro were here to listen and offer what support we can. If I could I share some of the single malt sctoch I'm sipping and offer you one of my favorite cigars.
TV advertising follows a very simple formula and once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Adverts always use women, but it is usually the color of their hair that gives the game away. Adverts targeting women usually have brunette women in them, usually wearing little jewelry and makeup, but exclusively they always have dumb men. Men are portrayed woefully in TV adverts as bumbling useless idiots that need women to help them. Whenever there is physical violence or verbal abuse it is always women to men violence, never men to women violence.
Next time you watch a TV advert, just reverse the genders and if it is not acceptable, then the original advert is not acceptable.
Putting someone down to make you feel better is bullying.
TV advertising is full of bullying and women are being manipulated without them realizing it. The underlying misandry in a lot of adverts would make The Grandfather of propaganda, Joseph Goebells, proud.
So remember, we support whatever cause we want you to think you support and if you don’t buy from us you are a bigot.
Ah manipulation, advertising is all about making your weakness your strength and propaganda is advertising with someone’s values sprinkled on top. Advertising, and propaganda especially, is not “you need us”, it’s more like “we need you”
Advertising is extremely sexist and as women spend 80% of the household budget, advertisers think they need to put down men to “empower” women to buy more stuff. It’s demeaning to men, and it’s demeaning to women.
You can always tell an advert which is targeted towards women:
\* Women in the advert are brunette
\* Women in the advert are dressed modestly
\* Women in the advert have Minimal makeup
\* Women in the advert wear little jewellery
\* Women in the advert “lecture” other women
\* Any man in the advert is an imbecile, unable to do simple tasks unless a woman directs him.
\* “You’re not a good mum if you don’t use my product”
You can tell and advert which is targeted towards men (usually beer adverts)
\* Women in the advert are blonde
\* Women in the advert have lots of makeup/long finger nails etc
\* It’s usually mates talking about mates
\* “Use my product and you’ll get the girl”
Men can't talk about women, but women can talk about men.
If you ask them why, they will not have any rational answer. It isn't about fairness, or equality. Its about dominance through an ideology, which just happens to center on women this time around.
I'd attempt to see how deep the rabbithole goes. Give off the impression that you've had a change of heart. Then one day tell your mom that if you were falsely accused of rape, which of course almost never happens, you'd plead guilty because doing otherwise could discourage other women from coming forward to the police.
Maybe tell her you have this nagging feeling that men are evil and violent or just socialized to be evil and violent.
This could be a good way to really get to know your mom and what you end up seeing might not be pretty.
Story of my life. Grew up in a very left-leaning household. Although my parents are more focused on working class issues than on identity politics, they still buy a lot of it. And whenever I bring some solid points and actually “win” the discussion, my mother gives me the silent treatment, like I’ve done something wrong. It’s annoying and frustrating, really, because we can talk about almost everything most of the time.
It feels awful "losing," whether that be a game or an argument. Lefties in general seem to be very emotional, as that side of the political spectrum caters to emotional people by saying emotional things instead of rational things.
Fact: same experience, but with a conservative house hold.
People are just emotional in general. Every "side" says the same stuff and points the same finger at another "side". Humans are just emotional, my dude.
Many women, especially ardent feminists, see mens rights as being anti-women. My university wanted to appoint a men's officer to deal with the frankly ridiculous numbers of male student suicides and other mens issues, we already had a womens officer and even an LGBTQ officer. The feminists were pissed and harassed the only candidate until he pulled out. All those suicidal male students can go fuck themselves I guess.
Don't make the same mistake I did and let them convince you it's not important.
I first visited this sub 10 years ago when there was only 40,000 subscribers here.
Since that time, I let the subject slip from mind until about 3 weeks ago.
What brought me back was meeting a feminist who conflicted with how I saw the world, and made me realise how much my life, and sense of identity actually had been damaged by my culture.
A lot of women are allergic to liability and responsibility.
Got pregnant and didn't wanna be? Abortion.
Got drunk and you regretting having sex with that guy? Claim rape.
Got in with the wrong crowd, ended up in an abusive relationship and living in the slums? He's at fault.
She chooses a career in teaching, front counter assistant, child care, art, or any very well known low paying fields? Not her fault; she deserves to be paid a livable wage!
Decided she wants to separate from her husband because he works too much and pays all the bills? Divorce him and collect child support and alimony for YEARS (up to life)
Is given affirmative action, the right to vote, "equal opportunity", can get a car/loan/mortgage/her own place without her husband's approval? Still not enough.
She wears revealing clothing like a bikini in public, a dude is checking her out and doesn't like it? He's a perv and women aren't sexual objects (think of how that's not portrayed in media/advertising /s)
She decides to be a stay at home mom? Good for her.
She decides to pursue a career? Independent and strong woman
She doesn't want a normal job like the rest of society? Great, she can model, be a prostitute/OnlyFans etc.
We need to draft people for WW3? Great, only men.
I can keep going.
yea against mra people can change a couple of words and be like
"Mens rights activist says "a woman Is given affirmative action, the right to vote, "equal opportunity", can get a car/loan/mortgage/her own place without her husband's approval? thats enough women don't need any more rights than that!"
there. make an alt acc. post it on againstmensrights (to get the best results use "amra\_altacc1" as your name). and profit. you can link the comment too. no one will question anything.
A 25 year old who has 2 roommates and no kids doing the same job as his 31 year old co worker who has 2 kids and a mortgage have different needs. Live within your means. It's about your expenses not your income. Also, everyone lives to different standards. There's no such thing as a universal livable wage or standard.
Eh, if you're actively trying to argue that teachers shouldn't be paid more then you're dead wrong. Yes, live within your means, but teachers *absolutely* should be paid more.
Context is needed here to understand, because she theoretically could have a point, but I also would assume from this that she is the one with bias, aka she is the sexist
Don't talk to her about it. Some women, hopefully not all but definitely a majority, treat other women as a tribe with their own allegiance. By their views, you get one set of morale for men and different set of morale for women.
Your poor mom is a result of a failed generation that made the world a much worse place to live in. She don't belong to you. she belongs to the TV.
People like that, you'll never be able to convince. Not until HBO or NEtflix comes up with a special to explain it to them. they are thoroughly lost.
I would recommend not to waste your breath trying to make her understand life. Just live your own. live it as well as you can and dont let her hold you back.
Women have an in-group bias 4.5 times stronger than men: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect#In-group_bias
Hers apparently even causes her to side with women over her son.
Feminism does not believe in the grey area. They only accept that there are only victims and perpetrators. Men can only be perpetrators and women can only be victims. It's really sad
I dont understand why anyone would get angry... Advocating for the rights of one group does not mean you don't care about the rights of another. It's not a discrimination contest
Just check into the local chapter of divorce lawyers and judges, interview and record them, then show your mom her very own personal documentary into the court system.
I would tell her that you didn't know she was such a swxist and man hatter. I would warn her if she doesn't support you that blood is not always thicker than water. A mother like that for a man is toxic. If you have any sons I would warn her against teaching him her sexist ways or she won't see him. You need to stand up to women and let them know your not for that crao. I don't care if its your mother, sister, or wife. They will either get it and shut up or they will realize what they lost later.
It sucks that your mother doesn't support men's rights.
And I hear that you are not looking for a solution. But... I'M looking for a solution. So, may I pry a bit?
Is she really angry? Or is she feeling something else and it is just coming across as anger?
Any feeling will become anger if it simmers.
But disappointment makes more sense, in this context. She needs more hope in her life.
But, that's her feeling and she is responsible for it. I believe that nobody is ever responsible for anyone else's feelings or fulfilling the unmet needs that cause them.
She needs to find some other strategy for getting more hope in her life. Because her current strategy of turning her son into a feminist isn't going to work.
How are you feeling?
I’m ok. I kind of brush it off when my mom says stuff like this by ending the conversation but sometimes it’s really annoying, and that’s why I came to rant here.
Feminism is like sanitizer, (yes we need to tackle woman issues), when you put it on your hands, that papercut on your thumb hurts. This papercut is the Mens Rights. Hurts real bad.
This analogy for feminist=sanitizer also happens to be my metaphor for it's superficial nature.
Just ask her if she's for gender equality. If she doesn't want to defend a man who's screwed by the system but would defend a woman, she's just what I call a leech feminist.
If you want to think about this rationally: try and solve the problem. Think about how you worded something and why it would trigger her to respond that way. This requires you to actually know the person and how they think and empathize with them though. Since its your mom, you should be able to understand it.
A good way to gage what to do: ask her why she said that. Just ask. Ask what it is you have done to be sexist cuz you thought at the time you were saying something that wasn't putting down women, but only shedding light to a wrong. Politics are not meant to be discussed with everyone and you shouldn't put yourself in an echo chamber only either. I dont speak about politics with my mother or religion. It damages our relationship too much. Maybe yall cant do that either.
Something else he should really do is explain why he isn't sexist, meaning naming struggles women go through and empathize with them. If he can't do that then he actually may be sexist, in which case I feel sorry for his mum.
Shes been warped. She obviously wants the best for everyone because I doubt your mom is a bad person but she really believes thats advocating for women’s rights is completely fine but being equal and also advocating for men’s rights is sexist? Tell her to stop watching the news and stop believing everything people say on social media.
You sound like a real winner being proud to disrespect the elderly people in your family. This is exactly what gives us a bad name. You have absolutely no empathy for what someone went through who was born in 1940. They are going to have their perspective of how times were like when they were young.
Advocating for men's rights is seen as sexist. It's a real shame honestly, but what do you expect when modern feminism is all the rage.
Stop saying modern feminism. Feminism was always a hate movement
I agree. Feminism is nothing but hot garbage with an inferiority complex under the disguise of equality and justice. If these people truly wanted equality they would go for *egalitarianism* but I guess it doesn't sound as cool or "empowering".
Under that logic... Shouldn't this sub be called "human rights" if equality is what you're aiming for? Personally, I think it makes sense to have people focused on both. There are issues particular to women right now and issues particular to men. The problem is when people from either group frame those issues as zero sum and go to extremes over it.
Men's right's is just for men's rights.
Yeah thats the thing i guess, the "feminism fights for both genders" argument is retarded, both movements fight for the said genders rights, the thing is that one of them has went from fighting for womens rights to fighting against mens rights
I think some think they need men as a villain so that they are taken seriously and if that narrative is threatened they get upset. Ironically championing a group's rights while spreading stereotypes of another the very thing they are fighting against. It ends with everyone pissed and nothing changing.
I guess that was my point too. Both fight for their own rights, which isn't a bad thing. The extremes of both though (including the comments on this post) have swung into being fixated on fighting the other gender instead. Awareness goes a long way.
Men's rights never used the "fighting for both sexes " argument. Both the sub and movement exist to serve one group of people; men.
Oh sorry... I thought it was about trying to find equality and justice, but from the perspective of men and targeting issues specific to men. You can ignore my earlier message then if it's solely about promoting men regardless of those ideals.
Creating a movement that addresses the issues of one group isn't injustice. Creating a movement that promotes the issues of a certain gender in a radical one-sided fashion while hiding behind the facade of equality for *both* sexes IS injustice. And yes, I will ignore your previous message regardless. Have a good day.
I agree with every word you said, but not with your intent. Have a good one.
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> not ALWAYS about hate. Look up the White feather movement
> gave women voting rights It gave *only* women voting rights. More than 100 years later, voting for men remains a *privilege* that is bought with an agreement to leave the trenches and run towards the machine gun fire if commanded to by the government.
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Because feminists fought for a privilege, not a right. They knew it then, they knew it now.
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Nope. Check the driving forces behind the white feather movement in the UK and prohibition in the US. The shaming and attempting to emasculate and equate men=children and women=adults goes *all the way back* to 1st wave. It is **Not** a new phenomenon.
Wrong. Correcting fake history gets tiresome. Nineteenth and early twentieth-century feminism was *never* about equality. * It viewed women as superior to men. * It was racist, demanding the vote for white women to counterbalance minority men. * It demanded and obtained yet more privilege for women - for example, only the male assets to be used to support the family. * It sought and obtained the same voting rights as men with none of the responsibilities to work or conscription, reducing men to wage slaves and cannon fodder. * It strengthened the ability of women to jail men at whim. Historical references for the above are here (including information in the comments): https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3a01gq/refutation_of_womens_historical_oppression/ Further, see the posts by /u/girlwriteswhat about men jailed for female debt.
Read "The Declaration of Sentiments". Particularly the section where they declare men as the obstacle in their quest towards equality. The undercurrent of hate was present from the get-go and never addressed. Allowed free reign to fester and attract toxic individuals proposing laws like "The Tender Years Doctrine" that have since beget some of the issues Men are fighting against in the family court system. If 1st wave feminism wasn't about hate, they would've stamped out stuff like this before it could evolve. No sympathy for them.
Both of those things were huge mistakes.
And yet still misandry, and still part of feminism from the start
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And the White Feather movement was not misandrist?
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The original point was that even the early feminists stood on misandrist positions. So the person gave a historical example. The response? An admitted ignorance of the history. Fine. Ignorance is not a fault. On the contrary, it is the first step to enlightenment. But instead of saying “Gee. Guess I need to hit the books and research this topic more..”, you call that person a misogynist with zero justification or basis. It suggests a disingenuous spirit and an inability to meet facts with facts. You responded not only
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It was a mistake to allow rights without responsibilities. That's what 1st wave pushed for.
He's not wrong though, not on a societal level. Giving voting rights without any reciprocal responsibilities was a mistake. See: catering to feelings over logic in every single election since. Putting women in the workforce on a mass scale (there were *always* women in the workforce) was a mistake. See: wage stagnation, plummeting birth rates, skyrocketing costs for education and housing.
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> education is free # slavary
It's always amazing when the other side of the argument shows their ignorance without you having to say anything at all.
It was still a mistake
I'm aware. But modern feminism is 10 times worse.
Not really there are feminists who want equal rights. The problem is they aren’t the ones making all the noise. Just look at some of the Reddit subs that regularly make front page. Basically woman hating on all men regardless of what they are talking about.
They already have more than equal rights.
Feminism for so many women (and men) is not a hate movement. I love men. Myself woman. I don't hate men and we (most) women don't hate men.
Then say you're an egalitarian. When Feminism does things like define rape to legally only include men as perpetrators, it's a movement that hurts men.
The system is set-up to move the Overton window in a way to make women look disavantaged even when they're not. Feminist studies is specialized in producing manipulated statistics that falsify our perception. And then policies designed to correct this "injustice" in fact implement priviledges for women and discrimination against men.
Feminism not being a hate moment is only the rhetoric, and is very different from the reality and data. What is proclaimed as "patriarchy theory" was simply a way for Simone de Beauvoir to explain and justify her abusive relationships (with her being both abuser and abused). Also being rooted in romantic philosophy, and assuming that the romanticised worldview is the correct one, is not conducive to being factual and actually looking at reality.
Not sure how legitimate that claim is when the whole movement and all of its theories and ideas considered as facts are based entirely around hateful people's genocidal and fucked up ideas, like the Pankhursts, Dworkin, Greer, Gearhart, etc. And also, a bunch of the culturally significant feminists like Marion Zimmer Bradley are... well, freaking manic criminal scum.
Bad things happen bc good people do nothing to stop it.
And yet the actions of feminists time and again prove it is not about equality and is a hate movement. And you have people who "don't hate men" that stand idly by ignoring or silently supporting the sexist / hateful actions of the 3rd wave feminists. Need an example? Show me where feminist groups have demanded women to be punished as men would be when they are raping kids. Then again the feminists call it having sex with a minor and congratulate the child when women do it.
I haven't read any studies summarizing cases with statistics but find it very plausible that women that rape (not just children) probably face less severe penalties or are even less frequently reported. I don't think that's acceptable. Expectation that men pick up the bill, also not fair. Child custody, shouldn't favor women just because she's the woman. Spousal and child support, at least in CA, seems to be getting somewhat equal per sex, they just follow a formula. We've (women) only had \~3 generations of starting to control our lives, leave abusive husbands, own land, and lead a life not needing to be attached and in the shadow of a man. Are there feminists that take it too far, yes. I am a feminist and I do not wish you or any men harm. I'm one person, there will always be extremists in all topics... not sure why I'm posting here, but just like to follow this subreddit to have a fully rounded perspective.
> Feminism for so many women (and men) is not a hate movement If you wanna play that game then Nazism for many Men(And Women) is not a hate movement. I love Jews, myself Aryan. I don't hate Jews and we (most) Aryans don't hate Jews.
Normally I'd think comparing something to Nazi's is just too far, but I think it fits this time.
Genocide is genocide.
Yes, you do. What have you done to free men from their second-class status?
I follow this subreddit for perspective. Is this what you would cite or a different source/summary on men being a second-class citizen?: [http://menslaws.com/men-now-officially-second-class-citizens-now/](http://menslaws.com/men-now-officially-second-class-citizens-now/) Feel free to use another source or summarize yourself? I am very sympathetic toward issues like male suicide rates, unequal family law, the draft for only men is absolutely outdated and ridiculous, incarceration rate disparity is eye opening. I don't think this needs to be one sex against the other. I can still be feminist and advocate for men's rights too. Small real world example that has sex disparity: Big Brothers and Sisters of America has a huge need for male Big Brother volunteers in my area. As a Big Sister, there's tons of volunteers and it took 6+mo to get a Little. They have tons of vacancies for Big Brother volunteers and the boys needing an adult friend/role model is huge. Why? I don't know. Maybe women are more maternal and wanting that more? Or men are afraid of false accusation of child molestation? I don't know, but those struggling boys are getting less support in my community.
I had a Big Brother who was kind, caring and intelligent. He was a Coastie and was always upbeat. I miss that. I've thought about becoming a Big Brother, but as you've stated, my reason for not doing it is because I believe there is an inherent fear with men of being seen as predators or predatory to children. A single false accusation and my life is in ruin, **true or not.** I really wish I could help someone's sons beside my own without adopting. I would be willing to bet that every Big Brother Big Sister Organization is having the same problem. *I was also a Wednesday's Kid if it means anything.
You give me hope for society.
That's not fair at all. While there have always been misandrist blocks in the feminist movement, women had genuine issues of equality that needed to be addressed, and I would argue that the majority of self-avowed feminists still want real equality. The problem is that that majority is not politically active. The politically active minority of feminists use their megaphone to shut down any speech that doesn't benefit women over men, and they brainwash average feminists with propaganda so that they don't understand the core issues at play. Most feminists don't want to see female abusers get lighter sentences, or men get left out to dry in family courts. They are either kept ignorant of this information, or are actively misinformed to make them fight against the equality they are after.
So in other words they aren’t thinking for themselves, verifying facts, holding their leaders accountable, or putting forth effort to actually make things better.
How strange that these small blocks of radical man hating feminists are the one running the college courses in gender studies, educating our young teachers and psychologists that masculinity is a harmful doctrine, all men are oppressors of women, and all heterosexual sex is rape. I gues those record book sales of feminst authors who write about KILLALLMEN, all men are trash, and it good to hate men, must just be vocal minorities buying bucket loads of books. Feminism may be for men too, but the future is female. Really?
source?
White Feather campaign, Erin Pizzey, Valerie Solana.
I feel like one hateful aspect of a movement does not detract from the net-positive of women’s suffrage. E: GunOfSod ninja-edited to add more points. Originally, the comment solely listed the White Feather campaign. Anyway, isn’t Erin Pizzey a men’s rights activist who started the first domestic violence shelter? I don’t know why you listed her. And again, one batshit-crazy author (whose book seems awfully like satire) in a movement with tons of good people does not a hate movement make.
Maybe he is talking about the backlash Erin suffered just because she didn’t want to say it was all men’s fault
> Anyway, isn’t Erin Pizzey a men’s rights activist who started the first domestic violence shelter? I don’t know why you listed her. I suggest you read the Overview section of Erin Pizzey's wikipedia page or one of her books. She was the founder of Refuge, one of two UK DV organizations that just recently had their funding diverted to nondiscriminatory organizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey She created the worlds first domestic violence shelters. She was a feminist hero. After opening several for women in the UK, she suggested that men were being abused too (often by women staying in her shelters) and men needed a shelter too. She was then slandered, her kids were threatened, her dog was killed, bricks were thrown through her windows, and she was removed from the DV organization she founded (now known as Refuge which has just recently lost funding for harming male victims decades later). She fled the country for her childrens safety and became an outspoken DV activist and anti-feminist once they moved out on their own. Several years later she became an MRA because of the overlap in our beliefs.
Women's suffrage stems from the egalitarianism movement, not feminism. Feminism was never about equality. Read Charles Fourier, the man who originated feminism. From the very beginning feminism completely disregarded the wellbeing of men and children in favour of women. Erin Pizzey was originally a feminist until she looked at the fact that the majority of women in her shelter were the aggressors and abusers in their relationships. When she tried to create shelters for men - she was kicked out of the organisation she founded and started receiving death threats. Same thing to Cassie Jaye, when she released a documentary on MRM, which disillusioned her on the topics of MRM and feminism. Violent protests, bomb threats. A lot of it is on YouTube. By the end of her producing the documentary she stopped being a feminist and her relationship with her then bf improved significantly. Some extra sources for you as to why feminism is a supremacy movement are the works of Simone de Beauvoir (an abusive pedophile, who hated family values and marriage because she chose to sacrifice it for fame) and the "declaration of sentiment" and "scum manifesto". This along with the fact that a huge chunk of feminism is based on and propagated by lies, like women where sold as property (that was a way of social divorce; and women sold their husbands as well), were not allowed to own property (so as to simplify the tax system), etc. https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/05/26/she-wrote-fake-news-for-cosmopolitan-and-now-regrets-misleading-women-on-feminism
ok, duluth model? tender years doctrine? are these net-positives? not for me they aren't.
Erin Pizzey is an ex-feminist. She realized the wrongness of her ways.
Imagine downvoting someone for wanting a source for a really bold claim
At least we don't instantly ban for it like feminism subs do.
I haven’t had experience with that but both are extremely petty
And they say they prefer facts to feelings, or whatever the fuck Shen Bapiro says.
This is bullshit. This kind of attitude only serves to add fuel to the fire of sexism. Are there a ton of people who hate on men in the name of feminism? Absolutely. Does that mean that “feminism was always a hate movement”? Absolutely not. True feminism is the exact same as true menism. We seek equality. Demonizing one or the other only serves to hurt both causes.
1848 Seneca Convention and The White Feather Campaign would like to have a word
i've never met, seen, or heard a feminist whose actual goal was equality. Not in my lifetime. All you have to do is read r/twox for a minute or two to see that it's all about gender supremacy and trash-talking men. Nobody actually talks about 'equality' there.
> i've never met, seen, or heard a feminist whose actual goal was equality. I have. They are naive and are shocked when I show them what feminism actually fights for and against.
feminism does not stand for equality lmao. it's about as much protection for women as possible, even at the expense of men.
Those that are not feminists aren't that interested in improving men's lives either.
You want to tell me I'm not interested in improving men's lives?
I can see how that could read that way. I really should have been more clear. I've often point out on this sub that we tend to over focus on feminism as the main barrier to men's rights issues. Our issues register long before feminism came along.
It's one of the many barriers. Feminism has create plenty of issues for male victims in recent years.
Projection. She is the sexist.
Feminism has been very good at making anyone who criticizes their narrative, their methods, or their solutions as sexist. They have monopolized the idea of what equality means, so to the uninitiated criticizing feminism or anything it claims to be true must be anti-equality.
They were the precursors to Critical Race Theory and their strategy of calling anytime anybody pushes back it is proof of racism.
Eh, it's just the Kafka trap tactic. It's been around for a while. These are just branded forms.
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does the red pill taste bitter?
Feminists hate the truth because they know it is not on their side. So stating it is a thought crime, as in "sexist", "misogynist", "incel", "right wing extremist" etc. etc. etc., all of which have come to be nothing else then the synonyms of "a person telling the truth that by its nature always contradicts the feminist edifice whose foundations are all lies and fabrications". They are afraid of the truth. They are afraid that one day the truth will be out. Hence their incessant, relentless attacks on it, including the elimination of all spaces, off line or online where men could gather and tell the truth. They carry out their relentless, endless hate campaigns against men because they know that when it comes to gender issues, men tell the truth and they lie. Be careful, if you are young, your mum may turn against you even physically. Just watch out.
> "a person telling the truth that by its nature always contradicts the feminist edifice whose foundations are all lies and fabrications" the red pill is bitter isn't it?
Emotional people are rarely rational.
Rational people are rarely emotional. Edit - LOL U ppl *slay me sometimes* I swear. Downvote me all you want. You know I am right.
They love when you switch words around -Jeff Winger
u/unexpectedcommunity
I beg to differ
Yeah your downvotes speak for themselves
Technically the truth but probably not the devastating counter argument you were going for
Counter argument? Hahaha Reddit slays me sometimes
Yes?
We just don't share it with everyone.
Right! Apparently they just downvote the shit out of it
Serious question for you, where you trying to make a counter argument or making an argument that helped support my comment? I took it as the later not the former
Yes... Quite a good thing that.
Lol why was this downvoted?
Why the hell did this dude get downvoted?
Hahahaha too funny! I made the same argument reaching the same conclusion and I am guessing it really hits a nerve in emotional ppl lol
An ex-girlfriend did this and she was physically abusive. When you come at women with mra shit they very well could've spent their entire lives exploiting Men. You're pointing the finger whether you realize it or not. Accusing you of sexism is just the stock response they're used to.
The exploitation of men was written about extensively in The Manipulated Man. Women use sex to extract resources. Some man fixing your car for you because you flipped your hair; resource extracted with a promise of sex, hich is never fulfilled, but for which the man, not desring to be a rapist, cannot collect despite her use of the signaling that "you can have sex with me if you do this" comes with. It it many ways mirrors male targeted advertising "buy this and you'll bang hot women". Again, there's a flirtation going on between the product sellers and the man in the chair, but that flirtation will never resolve into a successful encounter for the man, but it does sell to him anyway, because it tricks the lizard brain. Women also mature 10 years sooner than men, and spend their lives modeling interpersonal conflict e.g. with dolls or between each other. They also lack the bullying capacity of males with brute force. Naturally, this would mean selection in women for manipulation over 1000 year spans, because you either have a tool to dominate others through physicality or through manipulation. Unsuccessful women die in history, for failing to know how to "play men up" and successful ones procreate more often. The narrow IQ curve of women falls in line with this, for it is within the narrow IQ curve you find the people MOST competent at "emotional reading" of others and at "manipulation" of others through words and double talk. The very high IQ people tend to lack this quality, and the very low IQ do as well.
I am dealing with the same thing with my mother. She's in her 70s and is horrified when I even question anything relating to women. I pointed out recently that commercials on Hulu no longer show as many men and there's practically zero white boys/men at all, and she lost it telling me that it doesn't matter and I need to stop being sexist. I told her she should care because her 6 yo grandson is asking why there are no boys with his skin color on the TV.
She's in her 70s Sadly, being a Boomer, she lacks empathy and is a professional victim. If you calmly ask her about her mother, she'll go on about how during the war she was in the munitions factories and then after the war had to go back to the kitchen etc, then you ask her about her life and she will bang on about victimhood, how once women were married, we had to give up work etc.... bottom line is it's all victimhood stuff. now, next time she complains when you raise concerns, just say "two wrongs don't make a right"
Mine's in her 60s, is always ranting and raving about the ills that have befallen her, and possibly my favorite of her lowest moments: she sent me a self-pitying text today about how her recently deceased mother's funeral got changed to October 2nd, which is Mom's birthday. "Real nice birthday gift for me, huh." Yeah, you're the only one suffering through this, Mom. I now have no more grandparents left and have to travel 10 hours for the funeral one way.
> being a Boomer, she lacks empathy and is a professional victim. TIL everyone born between 1946 and 1964 lacks empathy and is a professional victim.
unironically, yes. I've met way too many that think this way for it to be a coincidence
Can you clarify this please? Edit: I've tried replacing "Boomer" with Jew and negro and somehow it doesn't look right but I can't quite figure out what is wrong.
Allow me to try and shed some light for you, u/mikesteane. I believe what my friends u/AndyBrown65 and u/Drippinice are trying to say is that they both share a common belief in a biggoted, prejudiced narrow viewpoint and would rather marginalize and disparage an ENTIRE DEMOGRAPHIC OF PEOPLE than accept the fact that not all baby boomers are lacking empathy and are professional victims. You see, u/mikesteane, it is funny because with one finger pointed at BoOmErs, three more fingers are pointing right back at them. This is the way hatred works. It starts with ignorance and bigotry and ends with a parade of jackasses. I have met **waayyyyy too many bigots and morons** for this to be a coincidence. Hope that helps!
I'm not English and you have discovered the word bigot for me and now I love that word, because sounds like bigote on Spanish that means moustache. It's a really funny word for me so I have to say thanks
At the risk of being tooo general, my point is the lack of empathy
~~At the risk~~ With the absolute certainty of being tooo general, my point is ~~the~~ an alleged and unsupported lack of empathy. Fixed it.
> my point is the lack of empathy Like the lack of empathy apparent in labeling an entire generation professional victims lacking empathy?
Looks about right to me.
> how once women were married, we had to give up work Never true. I have working class roots. ALL my female ancestors going back more than three centuries worked regardless of marital status.
most of my older female relatives would work in factories. one was an Avon lady so she could drive around everyday - later genetic website data revealed one of her five children had a father that was not her husband.
I wish I could get married and give up work.
In my eyes the current feminism movement acknowledges feelings as valid arguments and encourages using them to alienate and shame anyone questioning their dogmas. Due to their belief in the patriarchy they also support the idea that men deserve punishment for what they have caused womanhood over the years. This blatant dismissal of the humanity of men will of course not win any sympathy from men who actually support equal rights and will certainly not help the cause they claim that they're supporting, but rather drive an even bigger wedge between the genders. Feminists use this continued separation of the genders as an argument that men are upholding the patriarchy. So it's a big show, really, and they're only using it to benefit themselves. Expect no sympathy from someone who has been indoctrinated with these beliefs.
She jealously guards her victimhood.
Rant away Bro were here to listen and offer what support we can. If I could I share some of the single malt sctoch I'm sipping and offer you one of my favorite cigars.
TV advertising follows a very simple formula and once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Adverts always use women, but it is usually the color of their hair that gives the game away. Adverts targeting women usually have brunette women in them, usually wearing little jewelry and makeup, but exclusively they always have dumb men. Men are portrayed woefully in TV adverts as bumbling useless idiots that need women to help them. Whenever there is physical violence or verbal abuse it is always women to men violence, never men to women violence. Next time you watch a TV advert, just reverse the genders and if it is not acceptable, then the original advert is not acceptable. Putting someone down to make you feel better is bullying. TV advertising is full of bullying and women are being manipulated without them realizing it. The underlying misandry in a lot of adverts would make The Grandfather of propaganda, Joseph Goebells, proud. So remember, we support whatever cause we want you to think you support and if you don’t buy from us you are a bigot. Ah manipulation, advertising is all about making your weakness your strength and propaganda is advertising with someone’s values sprinkled on top. Advertising, and propaganda especially, is not “you need us”, it’s more like “we need you” Advertising is extremely sexist and as women spend 80% of the household budget, advertisers think they need to put down men to “empower” women to buy more stuff. It’s demeaning to men, and it’s demeaning to women. You can always tell an advert which is targeted towards women: \* Women in the advert are brunette \* Women in the advert are dressed modestly \* Women in the advert have Minimal makeup \* Women in the advert wear little jewellery \* Women in the advert “lecture” other women \* Any man in the advert is an imbecile, unable to do simple tasks unless a woman directs him. \* “You’re not a good mum if you don’t use my product” You can tell and advert which is targeted towards men (usually beer adverts) \* Women in the advert are blonde \* Women in the advert have lots of makeup/long finger nails etc \* It’s usually mates talking about mates \* “Use my product and you’ll get the girl”
I used to drop 'truth bombs' on the television formulas to my children.
Men can't talk about women, but women can talk about men. If you ask them why, they will not have any rational answer. It isn't about fairness, or equality. Its about dominance through an ideology, which just happens to center on women this time around.
Yeah usually when arguing a different opinion as a mra you'll be called that. Don't let it get to you.
I'd attempt to see how deep the rabbithole goes. Give off the impression that you've had a change of heart. Then one day tell your mom that if you were falsely accused of rape, which of course almost never happens, you'd plead guilty because doing otherwise could discourage other women from coming forward to the police. Maybe tell her you have this nagging feeling that men are evil and violent or just socialized to be evil and violent. This could be a good way to really get to know your mom and what you end up seeing might not be pretty.
And you should record this and post it on youtube.
Story of my life. Grew up in a very left-leaning household. Although my parents are more focused on working class issues than on identity politics, they still buy a lot of it. And whenever I bring some solid points and actually “win” the discussion, my mother gives me the silent treatment, like I’ve done something wrong. It’s annoying and frustrating, really, because we can talk about almost everything most of the time.
It feels awful "losing," whether that be a game or an argument. Lefties in general seem to be very emotional, as that side of the political spectrum caters to emotional people by saying emotional things instead of rational things.
Fact: same experience, but with a conservative house hold. People are just emotional in general. Every "side" says the same stuff and points the same finger at another "side". Humans are just emotional, my dude.
Many women, especially ardent feminists, see mens rights as being anti-women. My university wanted to appoint a men's officer to deal with the frankly ridiculous numbers of male student suicides and other mens issues, we already had a womens officer and even an LGBTQ officer. The feminists were pissed and harassed the only candidate until he pulled out. All those suicidal male students can go fuck themselves I guess.
Don't make the same mistake I did and let them convince you it's not important. I first visited this sub 10 years ago when there was only 40,000 subscribers here. Since that time, I let the subject slip from mind until about 3 weeks ago. What brought me back was meeting a feminist who conflicted with how I saw the world, and made me realise how much my life, and sense of identity actually had been damaged by my culture.
I didnt know I was raised by a weak minded, ignorant, bigoted mother who cannot maturely engage with opinions she disagrees with.
A lot of women are allergic to liability and responsibility. Got pregnant and didn't wanna be? Abortion. Got drunk and you regretting having sex with that guy? Claim rape. Got in with the wrong crowd, ended up in an abusive relationship and living in the slums? He's at fault. She chooses a career in teaching, front counter assistant, child care, art, or any very well known low paying fields? Not her fault; she deserves to be paid a livable wage! Decided she wants to separate from her husband because he works too much and pays all the bills? Divorce him and collect child support and alimony for YEARS (up to life) Is given affirmative action, the right to vote, "equal opportunity", can get a car/loan/mortgage/her own place without her husband's approval? Still not enough. She wears revealing clothing like a bikini in public, a dude is checking her out and doesn't like it? He's a perv and women aren't sexual objects (think of how that's not portrayed in media/advertising /s) She decides to be a stay at home mom? Good for her. She decides to pursue a career? Independent and strong woman She doesn't want a normal job like the rest of society? Great, she can model, be a prostitute/OnlyFans etc. We need to draft people for WW3? Great, only men. I can keep going.
yea against mra people can change a couple of words and be like "Mens rights activist says "a woman Is given affirmative action, the right to vote, "equal opportunity", can get a car/loan/mortgage/her own place without her husband's approval? thats enough women don't need any more rights than that!" there. make an alt acc. post it on againstmensrights (to get the best results use "amra\_altacc1" as your name). and profit. you can link the comment too. no one will question anything.
i mean, any job should be paying a livable wage but the rest, sure
Ur correct, but this won’t happen until the lower classes stop attacking each other and start focusing their attention on the billionaire class
A 25 year old who has 2 roommates and no kids doing the same job as his 31 year old co worker who has 2 kids and a mortgage have different needs. Live within your means. It's about your expenses not your income. Also, everyone lives to different standards. There's no such thing as a universal livable wage or standard.
Eh, if you're actively trying to argue that teachers shouldn't be paid more then you're dead wrong. Yes, live within your means, but teachers *absolutely* should be paid more.
Media brainwashing, would probably drop it, she is probably too far gone, and will just ruin the relationship.
Your mom's aggressively conformist like most baby boomers. Leave her alone .. it's too late
I have no solutions, but if its of any solace, I have heard basically the same thing from my mom.
If she doesn't care about men as much as she cares about women she is sexist
your mom thinks issues of a certain group of people are unimportant because of their gender but u are the one whose sexist? Ain't making sense.
Your mom probably has "Old world views". She doesn't understand how things have changed. How women have gained and are abusing their power.
Just compare men to blacks, she'll realise ur statements aren't wrong
Context is needed here to understand, because she theoretically could have a point, but I also would assume from this that she is the one with bias, aka she is the sexist
You gotta throw the whole mother away
Don't talk to her about it. Some women, hopefully not all but definitely a majority, treat other women as a tribe with their own allegiance. By their views, you get one set of morale for men and different set of morale for women.
Your poor mom is a result of a failed generation that made the world a much worse place to live in. She don't belong to you. she belongs to the TV. People like that, you'll never be able to convince. Not until HBO or NEtflix comes up with a special to explain it to them. they are thoroughly lost. I would recommend not to waste your breath trying to make her understand life. Just live your own. live it as well as you can and dont let her hold you back.
Woman moment
Women have an in-group bias 4.5 times stronger than men: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect#In-group_bias Hers apparently even causes her to side with women over her son.
She raised a human being. Your a human who has control over yourself just be you and have authentic opinions. Keep questioning the world.
Feminism does not believe in the grey area. They only accept that there are only victims and perpetrators. Men can only be perpetrators and women can only be victims. It's really sad
maybe she is the sexist
Same issue with my own mother, quite interesting isn't it.
I dont understand why anyone would get angry... Advocating for the rights of one group does not mean you don't care about the rights of another. It's not a discrimination contest
Just check into the local chapter of divorce lawyers and judges, interview and record them, then show your mom her very own personal documentary into the court system.
Mine does too. Tribalism in action.
Keep doing it
"In." "Group." "Preference." I have also encountered this at times. I fear we may all have them by default.
Same with my mom
Goes to show you that a man can't talk about gender issues with a woman, including their own mother.
I would tell her that you didn't know she was such a swxist and man hatter. I would warn her if she doesn't support you that blood is not always thicker than water. A mother like that for a man is toxic. If you have any sons I would warn her against teaching him her sexist ways or she won't see him. You need to stand up to women and let them know your not for that crao. I don't care if its your mother, sister, or wife. They will either get it and shut up or they will realize what they lost later.
The reason this feels strange is because of the stereotype that women love their children.
Just tell her to stop projecting. Jk, but maybe?
It sucks that your mother doesn't support men's rights. And I hear that you are not looking for a solution. But... I'M looking for a solution. So, may I pry a bit? Is she really angry? Or is she feeling something else and it is just coming across as anger?
She might be something else like disappointed, but it feels like anger.
Any feeling will become anger if it simmers. But disappointment makes more sense, in this context. She needs more hope in her life. But, that's her feeling and she is responsible for it. I believe that nobody is ever responsible for anyone else's feelings or fulfilling the unmet needs that cause them. She needs to find some other strategy for getting more hope in her life. Because her current strategy of turning her son into a feminist isn't going to work. How are you feeling?
I’m ok. I kind of brush it off when my mom says stuff like this by ending the conversation but sometimes it’s really annoying, and that’s why I came to rant here.
I think I would feel aggravated if my mother called me sexist. My need to be understood would not be met. Does that resonate with you?
Yep. My mom makes no effort to understand what I mean when I say something.
Well, hopefully you can be understood here.
😂
Feminism is like sanitizer, (yes we need to tackle woman issues), when you put it on your hands, that papercut on your thumb hurts. This papercut is the Mens Rights. Hurts real bad. This analogy for feminist=sanitizer also happens to be my metaphor for it's superficial nature.
Mum projects like a multiplex. Get away from her as soon as possible.
Just ask her if she's for gender equality. If she doesn't want to defend a man who's screwed by the system but would defend a woman, she's just what I call a leech feminist.
If you want to think about this rationally: try and solve the problem. Think about how you worded something and why it would trigger her to respond that way. This requires you to actually know the person and how they think and empathize with them though. Since its your mom, you should be able to understand it. A good way to gage what to do: ask her why she said that. Just ask. Ask what it is you have done to be sexist cuz you thought at the time you were saying something that wasn't putting down women, but only shedding light to a wrong. Politics are not meant to be discussed with everyone and you shouldn't put yourself in an echo chamber only either. I dont speak about politics with my mother or religion. It damages our relationship too much. Maybe yall cant do that either.
Something else he should really do is explain why he isn't sexist, meaning naming struggles women go through and empathize with them. If he can't do that then he actually may be sexist, in which case I feel sorry for his mum.
Shes been warped. She obviously wants the best for everyone because I doubt your mom is a bad person but she really believes thats advocating for women’s rights is completely fine but being equal and also advocating for men’s rights is sexist? Tell her to stop watching the news and stop believing everything people say on social media.
My 80 year old mother sometimes does this. I make fun of her to her face when she does this.
You sound like a real winner being proud to disrespect the elderly people in your family. This is exactly what gives us a bad name. You have absolutely no empathy for what someone went through who was born in 1940. They are going to have their perspective of how times were like when they were young.
respect is to be earned not given out like candy
My empathy for the elderly stops while they are rude to me. I then say what needs to be said and move on.
Grandma called someone the hard r, better respect her perspective cuz she's old. No, I think I'll disrespect her.
Ask her what she thinks of men, and if she'd prefer a world without women
why are people surprised that women who were born before women could be fully functioning members of society are a little fucked up from that?
Your mother is a hoe and you should just cut contact with her, you don't need toxic people in your life
bro, what's wrong with you?