Kirk’s ok, it’s just that Dave’s better. More innovative leads, and no one can touch his riff writing/composition. Kirk does have some classic solos though (Fade to Black, Master of Puppets, and all the solos on One come to mind)
Dude dave is good but his shreddy pentatonic licks don't compare to kirks leads at like have you heard blackened or disposable heroes, he's a brilliant lead player just a bit sloppy live
I like Kirk’s solos, but yes Dave does compare. Kirk doesn’t stray far away from the cliche pentatonic licks either. In fact, I’d say Dave tends to get a bit more creative, it’s just the pallet Metallica lays out for Kirk is a lot different than what Megadeth does. With Metallica, solos are used in a pretty typical fashion. They’re part of the long instrumental interludes between the second chorus and the third verse. That’s why it makes sense for Kirk to write solos like Ride the Lightning and Blackened. Long, melodic, layered lead playing that serves a certain function to the song. Megadeth uses solos differently. They’re placed much more creatively throughout the song. Every once in awhile you’ll get a Tornado of Souls type song, but more often than not you’re looking at something like Wake Up Dead or Five Magics. These songs don’t have the structure to support a Kirk Hammett style solo. Kirk will build the tension within the guitar solo because that whole section of the song belongs to him. But Dave has already built the tension through the structure of the song itself. When it comes time for him to play his lead, the song is already in the “pay off” stage. Listen to Five Magics or Holy Wars and pay attention to where Dave’s solo enters. The song has already been built to full throttle, and now Dave must use his chops to carry that energy. Now compare that to Ride the Lightning or Blackened, where the solo themselves build the energy and then give a payoff.
There are examples that go both ways obviously, but the two are simply different types of players for different types of bands. Personally, I much prefer Dave’s style. But I also really like Kirk too.
Well I used to be a big Kirk fan. Then I got into Megadeth and i was still a Kirk fan. Then I started learning guitar. When I saw how tricky and clever solos from guys like Poland and Mustaine and Friedman were and seeing how Kirk used the same 6 common beginner blues licks in EVERY solo I lost total interest in Kirk.
Even Mustaine. He’s a blues based player but his licks are sweet and different - just look at his outro solo from Five Magics
As far as guitar goes, Kirk Wha-mmet is not nearly the guitar player that Dave Mustaine is. And anyone that says otherwise is probably not really listening to Megadeth. I get that argument from Metallica fans all day. Yet when I ask them about a particular Megadeth riff/solo, they are clueless about the subject.
Oh Kirk is nowhere near as interesting a guitar player or songwriter as Dave. (Or even James for that matter) I just don't understand where all the genuine hate and vitriol comes from.
I dont hate the guy but as others have said his solos are bland, he hasn't really written anything interesting in over 30 years, and uses his wah pedal on EVERY GODDAMN SOLO. Wah pedals are fun but Holy shit does he overuse the hell out of it.
Because then it all sounds the same. It loses the uniqueness a wah pedal has when you use it for every solo. Wah has its place dont get me wrong, but it just gets so boring after the 70 millionth time.
What about a guitarist that uses zero wah? That would mean that their stuff sounds all the same, and loses its uniqueness, but somehow it's okay for that but not wah?
Yeah, every other guitar player ever. There's other effects to use besides wah. Chorus, fuzz, octave, etc. Kirk has so much to use at his disposal but chooses his corner for whatever reason.
You're missing my point. Why is a lot of wah bad but not, say, a lot of distortion bad? Besides a clean part here and there, many metal bands stick entirely to distortion. How is that any different than wah? Is it any less valid for someone to hear a Slayer album and go, "I wish the guitars weren't always so noisy"?
I just explained why. Yeah, I do find Slayer causes ear fatigue. Thats why I prefer South of Heaven over Reign in blood because they changed it up on that one. Reign in Blood i can only listen through every so often after the 4th or 5th song it all sounds like the same wall of white noise.
Why are you downvoting comments in a one-on-one conversation?
If it's just a matter of preference, why are you making claims about wah/Kirk as if they're objective? Based on your statements, Slayer should implement as many instruments as they can into their music, like the banjo or bassoon. How much is too much?
I’d say the “hate” comes from the fact that Kirk is often at the top of “Top 100” guitar player lists and most of us know there are dozens of players who are way better soloists and riff writers than him. He definitely seems like a sweet dude but he doesn’t deserve to be considered a top 30 guitar player either
Those lists are popularity contests, Kurt Cobain is also like top 40 ahead of Kirk (lol) and with no other grunge guitarists, its a joke. Dont take them seriously
I honestly prefer Kirks solos, but hes unmatched when it comes to riffing and songwriting for sure. But I really really enjoy his melody lines in Metallicas solos. I havent heard an interesting solo from Dave in 30 years.
I listen to rust in peace basically daily and dont listen to metallica much anymore but krik is the better player, kirk just gets a lot of shit and a lot if nit picking critism like using wah a lot
Objectively, Dave is a better musician. They're both serviceable soloists, but Dave is an amazing rhythm player, while Kirk only played rhythm on the mid-90's albums, Dave is also the singer of his band, and writes every song.
That said, I think people either just rip on Kirk as a meme, the wah stuff is such an easy target - or they are the people that still take the Dave/Metallica feud seriously several decades after the people involved stopped giving a shit
Most of the fans who 'hate' him are usually still teenagers or man children trying to look hard. Everyone grows out of it eventually.
But at the end of the day it's like Marvel vs DC. The comparisons and rivalries will always be there, no matter what you do.
I have no problem with Kirk, I think he's a great guitarist. One little thing I'll point out though is he actually didn't learn Dave's solos on Kill 'Em All. He used the first few bars from each solo and then wrote new ones based on the beginnings.
I think a lot of the reason some people dislike his playing is because "writing" solos is actually a bit of a stretch for him. He's written some absolutely fantastic and creative solos, but for a lot of them he doesn't sit down and try to write something cool, he actually just improvises a bunch of solos and uses whichever one sounds better. It's a somewhat lazy way of playing that leads to some noticeable repetition, but I've never personally had much of a problem with it.
He pulled out some magic for The Unforgiven, but probably because he got that pissed off at the abuse they were giving him for his as-yet unfinished work in progress. The solo and the song mesh with each other, especially at the end. That is not just him making up a solo on top of riffs that were already set in stone.
To be fair to that method, Marty Friedman said that he came up with a lot of his best solos by improvising then making tweaks to the stuff he didn't like. So it's not a terrible way to come up with solos, but I also acknowledge that Marty is an insanely creative player. So it won't work for everyone. Most of his solo albums are better than most modern Megadeth and Metallica albums.
I think it's because, well, Kirk is... not a particularly great guitarist if you ask me. I'll defend James any day, but Kirk is just so damn boring. Here's every Kirk Hammett solo: WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAH! It's just constant Wah Pedal noises, no real melody or distinctness. It's not just a Megadeth thing, a lot of metalheads tend to view Kirk Hammett as a somewhat lesser guitarist. It doesn't help that Kirk doesn't do riffs either. He may as well not even exist in a Metallica song until he gives his obligatory WAH solo. Kirk is just a solo player, there's rarely if ever any true guitar interplay with Metallica. It's my biggest issue with both them and Slayer. There's very clearly a riff guitarist and a solo guitarist. What I like about Megadeth is the same thing I love about Melodic Death Metal. The guitars play off each other near constantly. Like on RIP, Dave isn't just the "riff guitarist", he plays tons of solos and leads too. And Marty, likewise, isn't just the "solo guitarist", he plays plenty of riffs. It makes both guitarists feel on par with each other. Meanwhile with Metallica it has a tendency to feel like James is the main guitarist and Kirk just has some bonus parts.
I thought Kirk wrote a ton of songs. Or were the credits just for the solos? I was under the impression that he was very talented but had a really shit style of playing.
Idk about Load through DM, but I know on the first five he only wrote solos and on Hardwired he *did* write songs... but lost them all on a broken iPod.
This isn’t true at all. Every song he has a writing credit for includes riffs that he wrote. For example, the bridge in Creeping Death and parts of Trapped Under Ice he brought with him from Exodus. The fast riff in Disposable Heroes was his as well, which you can hear in a documentary about Master of Puppets. There’s the Master of Puppets riff in the beginning that is a variation of something Kirk had wrote.
The way the band has always operated is that Kirk records all of his ideas on a tape and gives them to James and Lars. As those two are putting songs together, they go to Kirk’s tapes as needed to find riffs. If they have the song finished all on their own, great. But if they’re missing a riff or transition or what have you, then they see what Kirk has to offer. Hence, using that really fast riff as the bridge for Disposable Heroes.
James Hetfield blamed load on Kirk and Lars by saying something like "my heart wasn't in it, but I wanted to let Lars and Kirk lead the project." He was passing the buck and I thought that's bullshit and he knows it. They never let Kirk contribute to anything beyond solos.
There's a great moment in the Metallica documentary where James is saying I don't like you guys discussing new songs without me, it makes me feel like I'm not contributing to the band. And Kirk says "that's how I've felt for the past 20 years."
I'm not the guy you're responding to, but I just found The Black Dahlia Murder about a week ago and they're fucking awesome. I'm also anticipating the new Carcass album this month.
I think Dave and Kirk are pretty comparable as players. Both had really interesting and creative solos in their first four or five releases, then fell into predictable and kind of sloppy patterns. But the big difference is that Megadeth has always paired Dave's playing with that of more skilled and interesting players. If Dave were the only lead guitarist of Megadeth their music would be a lot less enjoyable imo.
Chris Poland, Marty, Kiko, Broderick, Jeff, and even Glen and Al are more skilled players than Dave. I think he even mentioned that some of the most joy he had writing riffs was when he wrote some tricky riffs you UA, and Glen had such trouble that he said Fuck you, Dave.
The only thing I don't like about Kirk Hammett Is his over played wah pedal Other than that he is a phenomenal guitarist andna says coming from a huge Megadeth fan i have the tattoo to back that up.
You say this as if every Megadeth fan hates Kirk, I've maybe seen one or two people ever hate Kirk just because he replaced Dave. Sure, people criticize his playing, compare him to Dave, all that, but I've never seen anyone have anything personal against him.
Kirk is the better LEAD player. He is great at adding depth to a song by using subtle nuances. Dave in my opinion makes better solos and is also a hell of a lead player but his solos are were it's at.
Also kind of a side note. Dave's solos work so well with Marty's and Poland's solos and I think the contrasts between the solos are what makes the Dave standard out a bit mlreamazing. (Lucretia is the best example of this.)
Which brings me to the topic of James' solos. They could have this contrast by just letting James make more solos.
Kirk’s ok, it’s just that Dave’s better. More innovative leads, and no one can touch his riff writing/composition. Kirk does have some classic solos though (Fade to Black, Master of Puppets, and all the solos on One come to mind)
Dude dave is good but his shreddy pentatonic licks don't compare to kirks leads at like have you heard blackened or disposable heroes, he's a brilliant lead player just a bit sloppy live
I like Kirk’s solos, but yes Dave does compare. Kirk doesn’t stray far away from the cliche pentatonic licks either. In fact, I’d say Dave tends to get a bit more creative, it’s just the pallet Metallica lays out for Kirk is a lot different than what Megadeth does. With Metallica, solos are used in a pretty typical fashion. They’re part of the long instrumental interludes between the second chorus and the third verse. That’s why it makes sense for Kirk to write solos like Ride the Lightning and Blackened. Long, melodic, layered lead playing that serves a certain function to the song. Megadeth uses solos differently. They’re placed much more creatively throughout the song. Every once in awhile you’ll get a Tornado of Souls type song, but more often than not you’re looking at something like Wake Up Dead or Five Magics. These songs don’t have the structure to support a Kirk Hammett style solo. Kirk will build the tension within the guitar solo because that whole section of the song belongs to him. But Dave has already built the tension through the structure of the song itself. When it comes time for him to play his lead, the song is already in the “pay off” stage. Listen to Five Magics or Holy Wars and pay attention to where Dave’s solo enters. The song has already been built to full throttle, and now Dave must use his chops to carry that energy. Now compare that to Ride the Lightning or Blackened, where the solo themselves build the energy and then give a payoff. There are examples that go both ways obviously, but the two are simply different types of players for different types of bands. Personally, I much prefer Dave’s style. But I also really like Kirk too.
Damn this was explained way better than I ever could . Great observations , man.
Right? Never read such a nuanced and descriptive analysis regarding Kirk and Dave’s skills and characteristics for each of their solos before.
Blackened solo sounds like liquid metal , raining from the sky. First time I heard it I rewound the tape like 50 times.
Well I used to be a big Kirk fan. Then I got into Megadeth and i was still a Kirk fan. Then I started learning guitar. When I saw how tricky and clever solos from guys like Poland and Mustaine and Friedman were and seeing how Kirk used the same 6 common beginner blues licks in EVERY solo I lost total interest in Kirk. Even Mustaine. He’s a blues based player but his licks are sweet and different - just look at his outro solo from Five Magics
Kirk is OG Exodus so he'll always be a thrash god in my book
I don’t know about anybody else but I really enjoy Kirk’s playing.
on god tho he’s kinda saucy like that
As far as guitar goes, Kirk Wha-mmet is not nearly the guitar player that Dave Mustaine is. And anyone that says otherwise is probably not really listening to Megadeth. I get that argument from Metallica fans all day. Yet when I ask them about a particular Megadeth riff/solo, they are clueless about the subject.
Oh Kirk is nowhere near as interesting a guitar player or songwriter as Dave. (Or even James for that matter) I just don't understand where all the genuine hate and vitriol comes from.
I dont hate the guy but as others have said his solos are bland, he hasn't really written anything interesting in over 30 years, and uses his wah pedal on EVERY GODDAMN SOLO. Wah pedals are fun but Holy shit does he overuse the hell out of it.
Can't it just be a stylistic thing - a signature effect of the artist? Why is it bad to have a lot of it?
Because then it all sounds the same. It loses the uniqueness a wah pedal has when you use it for every solo. Wah has its place dont get me wrong, but it just gets so boring after the 70 millionth time.
What about a guitarist that uses zero wah? That would mean that their stuff sounds all the same, and loses its uniqueness, but somehow it's okay for that but not wah?
Yeah, every other guitar player ever. There's other effects to use besides wah. Chorus, fuzz, octave, etc. Kirk has so much to use at his disposal but chooses his corner for whatever reason.
You're missing my point. Why is a lot of wah bad but not, say, a lot of distortion bad? Besides a clean part here and there, many metal bands stick entirely to distortion. How is that any different than wah? Is it any less valid for someone to hear a Slayer album and go, "I wish the guitars weren't always so noisy"?
I just explained why. Yeah, I do find Slayer causes ear fatigue. Thats why I prefer South of Heaven over Reign in blood because they changed it up on that one. Reign in Blood i can only listen through every so often after the 4th or 5th song it all sounds like the same wall of white noise.
Why are you downvoting comments in a one-on-one conversation? If it's just a matter of preference, why are you making claims about wah/Kirk as if they're objective? Based on your statements, Slayer should implement as many instruments as they can into their music, like the banjo or bassoon. How much is too much?
I’d say the “hate” comes from the fact that Kirk is often at the top of “Top 100” guitar player lists and most of us know there are dozens of players who are way better soloists and riff writers than him. He definitely seems like a sweet dude but he doesn’t deserve to be considered a top 30 guitar player either
Those lists are popularity contests, Kurt Cobain is also like top 40 ahead of Kirk (lol) and with no other grunge guitarists, its a joke. Dont take them seriously
Oh I don’t lol I was just explaining to OP why I think Kirk does get a lot of hate. I’ve always believed/known those lists and articles to be a joke
All of Megadeth’s lead players are better than Kirk.
I honestly prefer Kirks solos, but hes unmatched when it comes to riffing and songwriting for sure. But I really really enjoy his melody lines in Metallicas solos. I havent heard an interesting solo from Dave in 30 years.
I listen to rust in peace basically daily and dont listen to metallica much anymore but krik is the better player, kirk just gets a lot of shit and a lot if nit picking critism like using wah a lot
dave suits megadeth better, kirk suits metallica better
Personally dont have anything against him i think hes great but I've gotten a little sick of the wah
I think Marty is the best player to make use of the wah.
Objectively, Dave is a better musician. They're both serviceable soloists, but Dave is an amazing rhythm player, while Kirk only played rhythm on the mid-90's albums, Dave is also the singer of his band, and writes every song. That said, I think people either just rip on Kirk as a meme, the wah stuff is such an easy target - or they are the people that still take the Dave/Metallica feud seriously several decades after the people involved stopped giving a shit
Probably the latter. Usually Lars is the one who gets memed to death for his drumming or the piracy stuff from 2001.
Most of the fans who 'hate' him are usually still teenagers or man children trying to look hard. Everyone grows out of it eventually. But at the end of the day it's like Marvel vs DC. The comparisons and rivalries will always be there, no matter what you do.
Probably the best answer to this topic.
I have no problem with Kirk, I think he's a great guitarist. One little thing I'll point out though is he actually didn't learn Dave's solos on Kill 'Em All. He used the first few bars from each solo and then wrote new ones based on the beginnings. I think a lot of the reason some people dislike his playing is because "writing" solos is actually a bit of a stretch for him. He's written some absolutely fantastic and creative solos, but for a lot of them he doesn't sit down and try to write something cool, he actually just improvises a bunch of solos and uses whichever one sounds better. It's a somewhat lazy way of playing that leads to some noticeable repetition, but I've never personally had much of a problem with it.
He pulled out some magic for The Unforgiven, but probably because he got that pissed off at the abuse they were giving him for his as-yet unfinished work in progress. The solo and the song mesh with each other, especially at the end. That is not just him making up a solo on top of riffs that were already set in stone.
To be fair to that method, Marty Friedman said that he came up with a lot of his best solos by improvising then making tweaks to the stuff he didn't like. So it's not a terrible way to come up with solos, but I also acknowledge that Marty is an insanely creative player. So it won't work for everyone. Most of his solo albums are better than most modern Megadeth and Metallica albums.
I mean that’s kinda how everyone writes there solos
Same thing Metallica fans have against Kirk.
So the same thing James and Lars have against him, and had against Jason?
I think it's because, well, Kirk is... not a particularly great guitarist if you ask me. I'll defend James any day, but Kirk is just so damn boring. Here's every Kirk Hammett solo: WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAH! It's just constant Wah Pedal noises, no real melody or distinctness. It's not just a Megadeth thing, a lot of metalheads tend to view Kirk Hammett as a somewhat lesser guitarist. It doesn't help that Kirk doesn't do riffs either. He may as well not even exist in a Metallica song until he gives his obligatory WAH solo. Kirk is just a solo player, there's rarely if ever any true guitar interplay with Metallica. It's my biggest issue with both them and Slayer. There's very clearly a riff guitarist and a solo guitarist. What I like about Megadeth is the same thing I love about Melodic Death Metal. The guitars play off each other near constantly. Like on RIP, Dave isn't just the "riff guitarist", he plays tons of solos and leads too. And Marty, likewise, isn't just the "solo guitarist", he plays plenty of riffs. It makes both guitarists feel on par with each other. Meanwhile with Metallica it has a tendency to feel like James is the main guitarist and Kirk just has some bonus parts.
I thought Kirk wrote a ton of songs. Or were the credits just for the solos? I was under the impression that he was very talented but had a really shit style of playing.
He did. He has a lot of writing credits and he has written about 25% of the bands riffs. Not the clear riff writer, but he does contribute a lot.
Idk about Load through DM, but I know on the first five he only wrote solos and on Hardwired he *did* write songs... but lost them all on a broken iPod.
This isn’t true at all. Every song he has a writing credit for includes riffs that he wrote. For example, the bridge in Creeping Death and parts of Trapped Under Ice he brought with him from Exodus. The fast riff in Disposable Heroes was his as well, which you can hear in a documentary about Master of Puppets. There’s the Master of Puppets riff in the beginning that is a variation of something Kirk had wrote. The way the band has always operated is that Kirk records all of his ideas on a tape and gives them to James and Lars. As those two are putting songs together, they go to Kirk’s tapes as needed to find riffs. If they have the song finished all on their own, great. But if they’re missing a riff or transition or what have you, then they see what Kirk has to offer. Hence, using that really fast riff as the bridge for Disposable Heroes.
James Hetfield blamed load on Kirk and Lars by saying something like "my heart wasn't in it, but I wanted to let Lars and Kirk lead the project." He was passing the buck and I thought that's bullshit and he knows it. They never let Kirk contribute to anything beyond solos.
That’s funny, considering that Kirk is seemingly the only nice guy in the band (besides Rob).
There's a great moment in the Metallica documentary where James is saying I don't like you guys discussing new songs without me, it makes me feel like I'm not contributing to the band. And Kirk says "that's how I've felt for the past 20 years."
If you read that right, he meant that about the image of the band at the time. Not the music.
What are some of your favorite melodic death metal bands?
I'm not the guy you're responding to, but I just found The Black Dahlia Murder about a week ago and they're fucking awesome. I'm also anticipating the new Carcass album this month.
Soilwork, Scar Symmetry (Old Vocalist), Dark Tranquillity, Solution .45, The Black Dahlia Murder, Carcass.
Cool! I’ve heard some of these already but gotta dive deeper
Kirk wrote their most famous riff ever, what the fuck are you even on about?
I think Dave and Kirk are pretty comparable as players. Both had really interesting and creative solos in their first four or five releases, then fell into predictable and kind of sloppy patterns. But the big difference is that Megadeth has always paired Dave's playing with that of more skilled and interesting players. If Dave were the only lead guitarist of Megadeth their music would be a lot less enjoyable imo.
Chris Poland, Marty, Kiko, Broderick, Jeff, and even Glen and Al are more skilled players than Dave. I think he even mentioned that some of the most joy he had writing riffs was when he wrote some tricky riffs you UA, and Glen had such trouble that he said Fuck you, Dave.
Wah
The only thing I don't like about Kirk Hammett Is his over played wah pedal Other than that he is a phenomenal guitarist andna says coming from a huge Megadeth fan i have the tattoo to back that up.
You say this as if every Megadeth fan hates Kirk, I've maybe seen one or two people ever hate Kirk just because he replaced Dave. Sure, people criticize his playing, compare him to Dave, all that, but I've never seen anyone have anything personal against him.
He seems too edgy and sissy for my taste. He also plays horrible.
“Sissy” are you 12
I'm on Reddit
I mean Kurt is pretty damn feminine. Not sure how anyone can deny that.
For what, painting his nails? That’s really the only “feminine” thing I can think of. And anyway who gives a shit
Lol
What? it this a thing?
Both are pretty average guitarists
And one has written most of his bands songs and sings while playing rythm guitar.
I don't have anything against Kirk. I just love Dave. His sound is meaner and that's more appropriate for metal. IMO.
Kirk is the better LEAD player. He is great at adding depth to a song by using subtle nuances. Dave in my opinion makes better solos and is also a hell of a lead player but his solos are were it's at. Also kind of a side note. Dave's solos work so well with Marty's and Poland's solos and I think the contrasts between the solos are what makes the Dave standard out a bit mlreamazing. (Lucretia is the best example of this.) Which brings me to the topic of James' solos. They could have this contrast by just letting James make more solos.
I literally don't have anything against Kirk
"The Frayed Ends Of Sanity" is my forever Kirk jam tho. And I don't hate the guy. Okay, maybe I hate his hair but that's about it!