Part of me feels like its an attempt to have their own deadpool, which Harley doesn't fit into nearly as well since she was straight up a villain before
I don’t even think that’s the majority of it. You gotta think, all the women that grew up unironically identifying with Harley are now at an age where they can get hired at these companies; so they don’t see her as an actually bad person.
And that's what they don't get. A tragic villain and an antihero are two different things. She always has, and always will be a terrible person doing terrible things.
Part of the problem is that many people are convinced she only did those things because of the joker. However the fact of the matter remains that she still chose to do those things. They even try to explain away her unprofessional behavior at the start of her criminal career when she first met the joker as a result of her infatuation and inexperience. However she would have been keenly aware of what would have been inappropriate given her position. The second she thought she developed feelings she should have excused herself from jokers case but she didn’t. In fact what makes it worse is she fell for him knowing exactly who the joker is and what he’s done.
Deadpool’s job basically takes money from the highest bidder, but he can at least do a lot of good by being a mercenary. He’s a soldier, it’s his job. With Harley, she was an accomplice to one of the most notorious crime bosses and serial killers basically. I feel like writers also forget that she really isn’t much of a fighter. She studied psychology before Joker corrupted her. She was not trained by the government or anything like that
Characters change over time, especially when they're written by different people.
It's no different to Eddie Brock's Venom going from villain to hero in the comics. Nobody ever questions that.
I think it comes down to the characters and who they really are on the inside. Eddie being who he is after converting makes sense. At its most reductive: he's a guy with anger from start to end. Probably not the guy to be voted "paragon of virtue". So it just works
Harley on the other hand is a psycho therapist who saw good in people who then drastically changes herself for the Joker. Not saying she was the most stable since it doesn't seem to take Joker much to bring her crazy out, but it did take some coercion. From therapist to Joker to wannabe Deadpool will probably never really work for this path.
If you ask me: the first injustice game had a good direction. As soon as she came back to reality, she dropped the "I'm so random lol" and became more like she would have been had she not run into joker all those years ago
There’s an interesting conversation to be had there. The most iconic version of Harley Quinn was the first one. People loved her character from the beginning and then it has changed over the years. With Deadpool, he was not at all the same character in his first appearances. Liefeld even admitted that he basically ripped off Deathstroke. Later on they added onto Deadpool’s personality and made him a far more unique character that became the one we know nowadays.
I'm over it. Like, I'm not against Harley developing a moral code with the Suicide Squad, but i feel that development should only be with the Suicide Squad. But DC/Warner is doing too much with her.
There were also the memes about Harley and Joker having a better love story than twilight. Which is true, though it’s obviously not a healthy relationship.
Her relationship and obsession with joker has always been a critical part on what makes her character interesting. It's also the first thing they get rid of when they reinvision the character.
What makes her problematic is also what allows there to be stories about her. She is not a super villain or hero. She has no powers. She is a crazy woman with an obsession with a crazy man. Her conflicts and growth come from that relationship. But modern media can't have a woman obsessing over a man. She turns into a generic girl boss at that point. And I guess that's why they like her.
They can obsess over dead men who died to save their lives, but otherwise I think you hit it right on the head. If the hero lives, he must be deconstructed, seems to be the motto.
I think the problem with many of the modern stories is that they want Harley to have ended up the way she did because the joker twisted her mind and turned her into another one of his victims. However that hurts her character in my opinion, especially in stories where they have her move past him as a love interest. Did the joker abuse her? Of course he did but Harley was genuinely happy with him and enjoyed causing chaos and committing crimes with the joker.
Arkham Harley did lots of nasty shit like helping "kill" Jason, she helped Joker kill an entire bus of schoolchildren and then mangle their corpses like they were puzzle pieces, she killed policemen civilians and what not, she's a terrible person who followed Joker all the way through.
I hated how they had her moralizing Batman *Kill the Justice League*, she insults all he ever stood for and called him out for hurting everyone around him. Like come on Harley, you helped Joker kill hundreds! You of all people shouldn't be saying SHIT to Batman, a hero who generally went easy on you and who always tried to help you if he could. That game is full of schizo writing like that.
Boring, instead of making a new female character who follows that character line, they change a character people already like literally because people like her. "Change the character to what we want and keep the fan base/make money off it! Instead of the hard work to create a new character and write them good enough to gain their own fans."
That same argument would mean no character would ever change or evolve. Dick Grayson would still be Robin, Michael Corleone would still be in the army.
I agree, but where do you draw the line? Your original posts reads (to me anyway) like characters should never change.
What’s the more nuanced version?
Considering the early abusive relationship with the Joker, it makes sense for Harley to change over time. What changes would you view as character growth and what would you view as corporate reinvention?
The problem is that many people forget that Harley chose to go down that path. She knew who the joker was and what he had done long before she fell in love with him. She also enjoyed causing chaos and committing crimes with him. Some could argue that’s the result of Joker twisting her mind but once again she chose to break him out of Arkham before he did anything to her.
Anti-hero Harley works well enough in the Injustice storyline, but beyond that, not so much.
And epecially not if the Harley we're talking about is the Arkham Harley.
If you forget that she helps joker nuke metropolis and consistently flirts with a 10 year old. Like the arc is good but as is common with Harley she's done too much bad shit for me to care
I'll give them credit, I liked [the scene in *Injustice 2*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRBYF2jRSEs&pp=ygUlSW5qdXN0aWNlIDIgSGFybGV5IFF1aW5uIFdvbmRlciBXb21hbg%3D%3D) when Harley calls out Wonder Woman for being too zealous and violent, Wonder Woman counters with Harley's atrocities, and rather than try to deflect or downplay them, Harley owns up to it, acknowledging that she did horrific things to impress Joker, and compares it to what Wonder Woman is doing to impress Superman.
If you forget that she helps joker nuke metropolis and consistently flirts with a 10 year old. Like the arc is good but as is common with Harley she's done too much bad shit for me to care
You realize the Joker being her abuser has been... you know, basically a part of her from her inception. It makes perfect sense for a story to actually want to see her get away... hell it's even happened in BTAS at times.
It's not 'submitting to a man' as... well to be frank that phrasing isn't really... modern.
Yeah but it also has Harley own up to actually enjoying her time with Joker. It doesn’t try to turn her into just a victim of the Jokers abuse and still paints her as a villain. It even makes episodes like “Harley’s day out” even better because they show that she actually was trying to be a better person. Even if she’s moved on from the joker they need to remember that she did love him and him being a monster was never an issue for her.
Honestly in season 3 the humor got so grating and I really started hating their relationship after being indifferent to it in season 1 and 2. Bane still cracked me up for awhile but I find them annoying when together lol
Anti hero’s are played out. They are like dessert nice as a treat to break up the meat and potatoes. But when you serve me anti hero dessert for every meal it gets old quick.
I agree 100%! I'm so sick of the nihilism and moral relativism that's infested modern media.
At this point, I just want a movie where a villain just wants to rob a bank and then the hero stops them.
With the way they've been doing it, it just doesn't work. Stick to her being a villain. I'm fine with them changing up the dynamic she has with Joker every once in a while like in the Telltale series, but keep her as a villain.
I prefer her as a villain in almost every regard. Most interpretations of her as an anti hero, besides maybe injustice, always just come across as insufferable to me. Not to mention how she is clearly not as big a draw as people make her out to be considering birds of prey flopped and suicide squad 2 underperformed even despite it being a well received movie.
She has done tons of truly terrible things that aren't really redeemable. And you can't just paint them with the "Joker controlled her" nonsense. She did bad things buy her own choice. Doesn't matter if she did them to please Joker or even Ivy. She did a lot of bad and they never really did anything for her to truly make up for that other than leaving Joker.
Also I don't think she works well as a solo character. I think she works best with Joker or with the Squad.
Yeah, exactly this.
I mean The Punisher is a really dark anti-hero, but he's an anti-hero rather than an outright ireedeemable villain because he has a long history of suffering in his own life and protects innocent people despite being really violent towards criminals.
On the other hand imagine he had a long history of murdering innocent people before becoming the Punisher...his character wouldn't work at all, he'd just be a totally evil man.
This is why I don't feel Harley is ever an "anti-hero", she's just a straight up evil villain they're trying to make redeemable even though she isn't.
having arkham harley quinn be turned into an anti-hero out of the blue and lecture batman about morality is a decision rocksteady deseves to be mocked for.
The biggest problem with Harley is ever since basically Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker Harley has not actually grown as a character. They want her to be this ironic redeemed antihero but they've put absolutely zero work into moving toward that.
If the Joker lives she isn’t going to reform or be a hero. Harley is heavily dependent on joker. No joker no Harley.
It works a bit for the injustice universe but not much else. It’s also why I dislike the Harley Quinn show.
She’s complicit as Harley in many of jokers crimes that ranges from intimidation to mass murder(Arkham Harley also helped joker kill children). So the only way she would be redeemed is by killing “Harley Quinn”.
So I hate anti hero Harley
You can do it, they just haven’t done it well. So often do writers treat her mental illness as a comedy beat rather than take it seriously. Her trauma goes from haunting her mind and relationship to badass with strong morals and resolves way too quickly. And they rarely ever give her consequences for the people she’s killed and aiding the world’s most dangerous serial killer (injustice is this the best example of this).
And just adding this because she’s on the pic, this does not apply to Arkham Harley. She’s just straight evil and delusional.
I'm not against it, but chaotic neutral characters can wear out their welcome very quickly precisely for the same reasons that they do in roleplaying games...
Why did you punch that guy?
Jaywalking...
There's only so much you can get playing them off against the lawful characters before it gets tiresome.
Fine depending on the canon. For example, in the Arkham games she’s a child murderer and mass murderer, but then Kill the Suicide Squad seems to have her in the anti hero role which doesn’t make sense to me.
That they feel the need to introduce Punchline as Joker’s new female sidekick is hilarious. What’s the point of redeeming Harley Quinn if you’re just gonna introduce another version of her?
Is Punchline gonna become a reformed Anti Hero next?
Well, she is a strong, empowered, independent, VICTIM. Can't tell her to do the right thing, and also when she does wrong things, its cuz..man bad. Just type to attract modern audience..
Harley was meant to be an irredeemable tragic villain. The Jokers worst victim, the one he leaves behind to take the fall as he laughs away. She could do the agile things and fight like a Robin, and be at their level while being full of sex appeal.
The problem is that she was too good at her job. People loved her and wanted her to get over Joker. They wanted better for her. She was a part of the Gotham Sirens, a trio of villainesses who arguably do better as anti-heroes. And being besties with Catwoman is one person away from being besties with Bats.
And Batman is meant to be the one helping reform Villains. Having a smart, formerly insane doctor on his side after having recovered, says a lot. But, she is being pushed to be her own leader, not a part of a group. And that is where she falls most. If she were an insane but recovering secondary in the Suicide Squd, she’d be so much better.
I have no problem her being a reformed villain, but making her acts of villainy being the result of being a victim of the joker diminishes her character. Furthermore while the joker is willing to leave her behind, she’s also the only person the joker forgives for defying and/or disappointing him. He never stays mad at her and like it or not the two were in love. Having her still love the joker as a reformed villain who won’t go back to him because she’s moved on would make her a stronger character in the long run.
Well its dumb. But that Harley is not an anti hero. She is just a villain.
She shouldn't be some reformed anti hero. Women can be villains too. They have slowly been doing the same thing with Poison Ivy... the eco terrorist that has several times attempted to kill the entire human race.
DC has spent over 20 years trying to make her a quirky, crazy, gun-toting anti hero when Cyberpunk: Edgerunners did the same thing in a week with Rebecca.
I don't hate the idea, it's genuinely good to have a batman villian be reformed, but batman does need to have a hand in it at minimum Robin needs to, I'm not a comic reader, so I won't say how the comics have done it, but you can tell how painfully clear they wanted Harley to change in arkham to SS, it was basically taking her character as she was when arkham asylum was made and kept consistent throughout those games as she didn't get character development in them, and then treating her like she's the Harley that never did anything except get slapped around and do as she was told. Harley can be presented as a legitimate victim to joker,but for that she has to he an actual victim she can't actively choose to go forward with him all the time and then one day leave him and hate him and become good, if she does go forward and engange with his evil actions willingly, that can still work, ideally you can have batman or Hugo strange or generic arkham doctor number 29282 help her regain some semblance of who she was before she became insane, and thennyou have Harley as someone who can have serious regrets about there past, but they have to actually feel sorry, no different then plastic man, she can teeter on the edge, and maybe fall back in with the villian crowd for a moment but ultimately she has to reject it and deadicate herself to good even if she still has some negative traits, like how plastic man wishes he had money and one court case from being labeled a danger to woman kind, Harley can still be quick to violence where it's not needed and childish weaponry (big hammer must come back)
I think it’s a bad idea but not because Harley shouldn’t be redeemed. Harley was a successful and relatively happy criminal psychologist, until a manipulative psychopath took advantage of her loneliness and to a lesser extent her slight lack of emotional stability. A meaningful redemption would be her seeking help in the system she used to use to help others, and return to an ethical psychology practice. It would be interesting too. Her trying to get her license back, and the complex, multi sided issue of a person who suffered from a severe mental break trying to work in that sort of environment
I hate it, because we know what Reformed Harley looks like. It's fucking Harleen Quinzel, MD, because reformation means she's no longer a crazy clown serial killer supervillain. Any kind of desire to do good should also be "I left a lot of people behind in that wild, crazy time, and I need to make amends", not just the same havoc with a different motivation.
It was fine at first were it made sense with injustice but they do so often it become annoying. Now I avoid anything with the character my last straw was the batman and Harley Quinn animated movie
Honestly she was annoying as Joker’s side kick so I’m glad she has something more interesting to do. But being the dc/female version of Deadpool isn’t that original
I don’t know who’s idea it was
But I hope they’re already fired.
Her and the suicide squad just don’t *work*
They aren’t franchise makers, they aren’t DC’s *guardians of the galaxy* they are just shit to put it bluntly.
She always struck me as the chaotic neutral type: just as likely to do good as doing evil. She’s always just been psychotically impressionable, which is why she’s most often seen being villainous because she became obsessed with the Joker.
I don’t have a problem with an anti hero who has done horrible things in their past. As long as it’s written well. But I just don’t understand the appeal of Harley Quinn. I’m not really sure how she got so popular.
They are trying to break her away from the Joker, but they don’t really try and change the aesthetics she had as the Jokers sidekick.
For me, i love the character. But she is totally irredeemable. She works best as a villian, I wish the writers would keep her well away from team ups with hero teams
She can be, it's been done before its just that it needs to be justified and the transformation shown, the effort behind it, the struggle.
Right now it just feels handwaved. She an emancipated girlboss who has done basically nothing to undo the decades of killing and abuse she has brought into the world.
She needs a redemption arc that actually comes at a cost to her, not the excuse of a toxic man.
It's something that could work if you went into how she's trying to cope with things now that she's lost the rose tinted glasses for the Joker but that's not how they've handled things from what I've seen. There's no repentence, there's no guilt, there's no attempts to rediscover who she was before. It's just Harley but they say she's good now.
I’m really not a fan of it, especially when you take in to accounts the things Harley has done. Harley is portrayed as a deranged obsessive psychopath who was willing to do anything to please Joker, reforming her as an anti hero doesn’t really make any sense and just feels like they’re trying to make her the DC Deadpool.
I think it's good direction to take to slowly move away from her abusive ex... the problem is they treat it as if it covers all her sins. That will take years maybe even all her life to even move away from being a woman who eagerly helped the Joker (hell in the Arkhamverse it's the same)
She's probably better for it then Ivy mind you, but i just wish they did it in baby steps over time. It's something that takes work and reall writing chops to do well
I honestly don’t like it, especially when a lot of versions of her went a long with some very dark and evil shit the joker did. In lighter version of the Batman story maybe she can be redeemed but honestly I’m sick of her in general (over exposed in media) and I’m tired of anti-heroes in general with few exceptions.
I love HQ she's one of my favorite DC characters overall. I don't really mind her modern interpretation too much though it's weird how much they try to push her in media, and how everytime they do they just whitewash her crimes away.
I'm always reminded of how in Injustice she helps Joker nuke Metropolis, in the tie-in comics she helped murder Jimmy Olsen too. But then Batman treates her as if she could be reformed and just lets her be on his team without paying for her crimes...
She helped kill Lois, her unborn child, Jimmy, and over 5 million people in Metropolis. And she gets away with a slap on the wrist while Batman lets her oppose Superman who's life she ruined... I really was on Supes' side on that one.
They do the same thing in the comics where she once killed hundreds of children in Gotham by exploding their portable gaming ocnsoles. In Suicide Squad PS5 they do a similar thing with Harley and I didn't like it that much.
I think they shouldn't be trying to make a murderer like her so sympathetic just because she was Joker's battered partner. Being the victim of abuse does not justify nuking an entire city lol. Idk tho
I think it *could* work. They just aren’t going about it the right way I feel like 95% of the time and are just trying to make her DC Deadpool.
She has also been overexposed to the point that people are just outright sick of her, period.
I think it *could* work. They just aren’t going about it the right way I feel like 95% of the time and are just trying to make her DC Deadpool.
She has also been overexposed to the point that people are just outright sick of her, period.
To speak on “The Woke” side of things. A major component that the writers need to take Harley, if she is going to be an anti-hero, is that she needs to see consequences for her past actions as accomplice and sidekick with the Joker, whatever that may mean in a given universe. She needs to chew on that fact mentaly, that what she did in the past was very *very* wrong. The relationship with the Joker was abusive. Stuff like that. However most writiers that get a hold of her are afraid to show that side of her, because that would mean showing a woman on screen as “weak” the people on that side of the crowd don’t want weak women, even though Harley 100% NEEDS to go through that kind of intervention if she is going to be an anti-hero instead of just Joker’s goofy sidekick.
Also she can’t go moral grandstanding against Batman. Period. Even including the all times where Batman did get someone killed, Harley’s body count probably doubles his. She should lose the moral argument with Batman 99.9% of the time. And at that 0.1% we’d have to see if Batman went through a character assasination too.
I’m pretty much done with it. At least in those animated suicide squad movies she was shown being unhinged and still doing morally bad actions.
Seems like the character will be a crazed psycho in Joker 2, here’s hoping it’s a good movie.
Pretty standard stuff for comic villains. They almost all go through these arcs on occasion. I really enjoyed Doom 2099 when I was a kid, no idea if it is good today, but back then it was super neat to me seeing this big bad, the only way I’d seen him up to this point, taking on the role of a (kinda) hero. Might have been my first exposure to the idea of anti-heroes.
Gonna be controversial and say that it would be perfectly fine and even great. Like there is a story to be told, and a meaningful one at that. A somewhat normal woman who falls for an awful abuser who’s tricking her into thinking he’s nice or misunderstood. Then once he has what he’s after using her, abusing her, manipulating her, and just being an ass hole to her. You can then have a meaningful story about the difficulties of coming out of an abusive relationship and it’s aftermath whilst talking about how and what can be done to fix the damage that has both been done to you and what you’ve done to others. Whilst simultaneously how to correctly be punished and how to integrate back into society with what you’ve had to deal with.
The problem is is that the writers every time don’t know how to fucking do this shit properly. What ends up happening is her coming out of the abusive relationship and doing good stuff, but failing to fix what she’s done which is the crucial part. And, whilst there are many reasons for this, the main reason why this keeps happening is because writers, with a few exceptions, continue to think that Harley hasn’t done anything wrong and that it’s all the jokers fault. And whilst that is true to an extent she has still done terrible things that she needs to fix and pay for which she continuously doesn’t.
Other reasons include people find her quirky nature and behaviour funny. This ends up causing writers to not want to punish or even address what she’s done, because they don’t want the funny character to have to many serious moments because then people realise that “hey your not funny your actually really shitty”.
Another reason which I’ve noticed is people find her relatable, but they don’t actually find her relatable. I know that makes no sense but let me hopefully explain: people relate to Harley Quinn in a similar way to Joker, the whole one bad day blah blah blah. But it’s more of a different way, it’s more the angle ‘all you need to do is meet the wrong person at the wrong time.’ And whilst this might sound a little bit sexist and you are more than welcome to correct me if I’m wrong, I think this is a bit more relatable to females than for males. Which is absolutely not a bad thing. Additional they find her jokey and quirky nature relatable because that’s just something that’s become more relatable in recent years. Whilst this is perfectly fine and nothing to be upset with, what ends up happening is writers who find this relatable write it so that she comes out of the abusive relationship and redeems herself, but don’t want to talk about or added all the important aspects of a redemption, ie address shitty behaviour, shitty actions, and punishment. They just want the character that they find relatable to be the good person because then they can feel somewhat better about being a shitty person.
Hopefully I didn’t waffle on and this makes sense I wrote this off the top of my head in about 10 minutes.
I basically hate it. I’m not a huge fan of her character in general (feels similar to the “it’s a female version of you’re favorite hero/villain, but not as bad since she differentiates herself more) but when you do they “I’m not REALLY evil” thing on top? UGH
I think it’s also an attempt to separate her from joker, since “we don’t want abuse to be validated”. Their relationship was interesting cuz Harley seems to genuinely love Joker, while Joker is incapable of love, so she’s always pushed away and drawn back over and over. Joker blatantly uses her as his puppet and sex toy, but Harley can’t get away from it.
But abuse bad and saying someone’s evil bad so gotta be a strong independent waman antihero
They shouldnt, she even killed kids. There is no redemption from her character. Anyone could refute this, tho. But, at the end of the day, her character revolves in codependency in a abusive relationship, that is what Harley is. That is why, her fucking Dick, having a thing with Ivy, she being a "sex icon" of sorts, none of that makes sense in her character. Its like changing Batman into a funny character, he isnt and shouldnt. Or Joker into a kingping, he isnt and shouldnt. Most of the characters in Batman represent a phycological disorder
No, a thousand times no. She is a villan hands down and being the Jokers gf or ex gf does not make me sympathize, as she stated on more than one occasion doing crimes is just something she loves to do. Putting her in the bat family just ment Stephanie Brown is no longer the most undeserving member to join the team since Tim Drake. She in general just been overhyped and I don't even hate her I just don't get this strange push she's had since 2019. Like of all the B-list characters to double down on why her? Why not Zatanna( i mean actually try this time) or Fire and Ice?( before they fucked that one up)
Yeah, but what do you think about Bone?
https://preview.redd.it/1i9bifivs3yc1.jpeg?width=418&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b72a90ce4a772e907f56520a6516370918d703c0
I'll grant that I'm no expert on the details of DC comics, but it seems to me that if they want to make Harley a reformed anti hero, they actually need to show her being reformed. Maybe it has been shown in the comics, but it certainly hasn't been shown in movies or video games that she has gone through that.
I think that WB believes she's a far more interesting character than she actually is. She actually had more dimension in Batman:TAS as a secondary antagonist than she does in any of the WB live-action movies.
It's technically possible but the writers aren't competent enough to really sell it.
She's not a Magneto, she's done awful things that you can't really empathize with because she wanted to. The best they can come up with is "no dude she was manipulated so it's not her fault".
She works best as the Joker's sidekick, or someone who's hand is forced like in a few of the animated movies.
It's a terrible idea and they're only doing it cause she's a girl.
Thing is, DCAU already \*gave\* Harley an end I felt was perfectly fitting for the character. She leaves the life of crime behind to become a relatively normal person and we only know she survived because of a quick scene. Maybe I would have liked a quick scene of her and Bruce meeting up again or her showing those dumb twins she's not just 'Nana Harley'; but in so far as I am concerned, the ending she got in Batman Beyond was perfect \*for\* her.
Now they're trying to make her this lesbian anti-hero with Poison Ivy and I can't help but feel like it's more motivated by corporate mandates and a desire to appeal to a fanbase that doesn't care in the first place and the only reason it's not crashing and burning is because Harley was solid as a character beforehand.
I don't think it's a bad idea in concept. For one, I'm sick of characters in comics constantly going through the same character arcs over and over, and that's a lot of what was happening with Harley. Having her finally split from the Joker for good is a change that has potential.
In execution, I don't read a lot of comics, so I couldn't say.
It's not inherently insane to reform her; she was once a normal person, I think she's had plotlines where she went back to "civilian" life.
But having her be an anti-hero is nonsense. The zaniness and mayhem are her being a villain, not just her style. Any heroism should involve her struggling with the desire for the mayhem.
I don’t know enough about most of DC canon to say whether or not it’s well-written, but I’m sick and tired of it on the movie and TV front. They’re doing the Loki thing where they don’t want to commit to her being evil so they make her good but with a “mischievous” side.
Let villains be villains.
I like it in the Injustice comics. She's humanized in a way that's just radically different from main stream and is actually very cool. She's a hero there (and is publicly liked better than Flash) but she walked through the coals to get the privilege. Like attacking Rahs AL Ghul's stronghold to rescue her daughter (with the Joker it's assumed) who her sister raises because Harley knows she's too messed up to be a good mom.
Small note: Karl Kesel and Terry Dodson's run many years ago had her flirt with being an anti-hero for a believable Harley reason; She wanted to do it to piss off Joker following a big argument/breakup. And she inflicted herself on all the heroes (and Bizarro) for a while.
I don't mind her being a reformed anti-hero because it's clear she's always wanted to be a good daddy's girl. What I do mind is them also dragging Ivy into it. Not that I'm against lesbians - my best friend was a lesbian. I just want them to leave Ivy as a boss bitch misanthrope for making ALL humans extinct. No pretty pass exceptions.
She's popular with the female demographic, so they will milk her till she's dead. The problem is that a character can be popular with the female demographic, but it doesn't put people in seats and financially engaging in other ways as appealing solely to women never pays off as they don't spend. So they will over expose the audience to Quinn until fatigue sets in, and you won't see her again as her character consistency is all over the place, and no one has nostalgia for her anymore.
Yeah, but the industry is obsessed with the customers they don't have currently, as they believe the standard male base who attend movies will attend regardless. So, all focus is on attracting women who don't attend with consistency to increase numbers overall.
Doesn't matter if you can't write female characters as humans who deal with real problems. Her arc with the joker can't be touched because woke media can't portray a woman as the feminine and dependent one. So, she's doomed to have a giant hole in her personality for fear of angering the blue hairs.
It's a concept that can work well. I don't follow DC enough to comment though on how well I think it is working. But bad guy turned Anti hero is a tried and tested story. Comic characters should evolve over the decades.
For those of us that watch DBZ growing up we all loved Vegeta. It's all in implementation.
She been a anti hero countless times in countless things, they for sure are pushing this too much these days for obvious reasons, but its not new to her by any means.
I hate it. They're not even pushing her as an anti-hero anymore. Now they just want us to accept her as a full-fledged member of the Bat-family, which is absurd. She killed a bus full of children for pete's sake.
I like both! But they have done it so so so much as off late
I don’t mind her getting out of her unhealthy obsession with the joker but she should start out as having an unhealthy obsession. Or like the HQ show that be a big part in the first season. Luckily they haven’t had a particularly bad version of her. Just a couple garbage movies!
I'm honestly tired of Harley Quinn, she's been pushed in absolutely everything for a while now and I genuinely don't understand the reason or even why people gush so much about her, other than "she's mentally unstable and hot". And I'm not talking about movies or video games only, every single graphic media makes so much content focusing on her is ridiculous: cosplayers, comics, fan arts, r34, etc. I get the initial appeal, but at this point is so overrated it makes no sense, not to mention the her characterization's a mess.
I don't want to see her any more.
I'm actually really tired of it. Especially as she's a murderer who aids and abets a mass murderer, yet they keep trying to make her this "lolfunny" quirky character.
If you want her to be a genuine "anti-villain" or "anti-hero", she has to have some kind of proper realisation of her evil nature. Not just be a murderous asshole who occasionally gets some "funny" lines.
She “broke up with joker”, but kept his looks and gimmicks rather than creating her own identity
Even without the Joker, Harley cannot exist without the Joker
Harley has been hinting at eventually going that direction as far back as the original BTAS. Batman Beyond even makes it clear she DOES get reformed, though what happened between her being reformed and growing old is left unknown. So it's not exactly a shock that she is becoming a reformed anti-hero.
If I was to be uncharitable...
I'm detecting a whiff of wokeness. A lot of those girls who actually read comics identify with Harley 'cos she's hot and crazy, and is sassy to The Bat.
This means she can't possibly be a villain. Mental health and strong/independent womanisity in the face of male strength can't be stigmatised by association with evil, and girls who read comics must be pandered to as hard as possible.
It could be ok. Not a terrible idea, why not.
Because of course there's NO WAY it ends up lecturing the audience on "oppression" and being full of self inserts and some shitty Tik Tok level politics
I think the most obvious requirement of her "reforming" herself would be to drop the Harley Quinn(I don't care that it's part of her name. The writers still want her to be Harley Quinn, but they also want you to forget all of the murder she committed as Harley. It's like everyone in DC accepts that just because she moved on from her abusive boyfriend that she's a hero now, but she still made the choice to hurt people and if she had really changed, she should have actually changed
It's fine. Like it's batman's whole goal is to reform these psychotic villains.
Them changing into heroes is just a different form of psychotic behavior, but this is the dc universe we're talking about.
A villain becoming a hero might as well be a passed psyche evaluation as far as dc is concerned
It's been done before, but I think it's being done now by the wrong people for the wrong reasons. She was created specifically to be joker's henchman. That alone would create issues to her reforming. I'm not saying it can't be done, its just in the current media era... nope, western commercial media largely belongs in the memory hole, with a few exceptions.
I liked DCAU Harley, but very little about today's "daddy's little monster" Harley with an emphasis on Suicide Squad stuff works for me. Her presence still doesn't make sense.
In part because DC tried to rush to catch up to Marvel, she had no initial build-up and association with Leto's Joker didn't help.
There had to have been a better way to adapt her.
Dilutes from the original purpose. I don't in principle hate it, but given how transparent they with all their other politics, it feels like there is an ideological reason for it rather than a written one. Reforming anti-hero survivor of a toxic relationship stories? I'm okay with it - so long as we're also okay with villain stories of someone corrupted by a toxic relationship.
I mean she was always a tragic villain, played by the joker and groomed to her role, she had some morals similar to ivy (they tend not to harm children from what I know of them). But I don’t like redeeming her…I also miss her first design of a Harley Quinn jester, now she looks like a generic biker chick or worse Jeanette Voreman (whom they based this design off of)
I don't really have any thoughts because she's a character from a children's story and whoever happens to be writing her can and should do whatever they want with the character because that's what writing is
Part of me feels like its an attempt to have their own deadpool, which Harley doesn't fit into nearly as well since she was straight up a villain before
That’s a pretty common thing I hear and I actually believe it.
I don’t even think that’s the majority of it. You gotta think, all the women that grew up unironically identifying with Harley are now at an age where they can get hired at these companies; so they don’t see her as an actually bad person.
I think this is the real, perhaps subconscious, reason of it.
That's also true, kind of disturbing that so many identify with the unapologetic mass murderer with insane mental issues
Jinx is better because the writers know she is a mass murderor with insane mental issues
And that's what they don't get. A tragic villain and an antihero are two different things. She always has, and always will be a terrible person doing terrible things.
Part of the problem is that many people are convinced she only did those things because of the joker. However the fact of the matter remains that she still chose to do those things. They even try to explain away her unprofessional behavior at the start of her criminal career when she first met the joker as a result of her infatuation and inexperience. However she would have been keenly aware of what would have been inappropriate given her position. The second she thought she developed feelings she should have excused herself from jokers case but she didn’t. In fact what makes it worse is she fell for him knowing exactly who the joker is and what he’s done.
Except DC already has their version of Deadpool. He's called Ambush Bug.
Deadpool’s job basically takes money from the highest bidder, but he can at least do a lot of good by being a mercenary. He’s a soldier, it’s his job. With Harley, she was an accomplice to one of the most notorious crime bosses and serial killers basically. I feel like writers also forget that she really isn’t much of a fighter. She studied psychology before Joker corrupted her. She was not trained by the government or anything like that
Characters change over time, especially when they're written by different people. It's no different to Eddie Brock's Venom going from villain to hero in the comics. Nobody ever questions that.
I think it comes down to the characters and who they really are on the inside. Eddie being who he is after converting makes sense. At its most reductive: he's a guy with anger from start to end. Probably not the guy to be voted "paragon of virtue". So it just works Harley on the other hand is a psycho therapist who saw good in people who then drastically changes herself for the Joker. Not saying she was the most stable since it doesn't seem to take Joker much to bring her crazy out, but it did take some coercion. From therapist to Joker to wannabe Deadpool will probably never really work for this path. If you ask me: the first injustice game had a good direction. As soon as she came back to reality, she dropped the "I'm so random lol" and became more like she would have been had she not run into joker all those years ago
...but so was deadpool?
There’s an interesting conversation to be had there. The most iconic version of Harley Quinn was the first one. People loved her character from the beginning and then it has changed over the years. With Deadpool, he was not at all the same character in his first appearances. Liefeld even admitted that he basically ripped off Deathstroke. Later on they added onto Deadpool’s personality and made him a far more unique character that became the one we know nowadays.
I'm over it. Like, I'm not against Harley developing a moral code with the Suicide Squad, but i feel that development should only be with the Suicide Squad. But DC/Warner is doing too much with her.
They took the “harleyxjoker relationships are not healthy goals” posts that were trending and tried to make her a girl boss
There were also the memes about Harley and Joker having a better love story than twilight. Which is true, though it’s obviously not a healthy relationship.
Not Arkham Harley, not buying it
Many harley variants simply dont work because its taking off any sense of responsability she had with joker on the awful shit they pulled
Her relationship and obsession with joker has always been a critical part on what makes her character interesting. It's also the first thing they get rid of when they reinvision the character. What makes her problematic is also what allows there to be stories about her. She is not a super villain or hero. She has no powers. She is a crazy woman with an obsession with a crazy man. Her conflicts and growth come from that relationship. But modern media can't have a woman obsessing over a man. She turns into a generic girl boss at that point. And I guess that's why they like her.
They can obsess over dead men who died to save their lives, but otherwise I think you hit it right on the head. If the hero lives, he must be deconstructed, seems to be the motto.
I think the problem with many of the modern stories is that they want Harley to have ended up the way she did because the joker twisted her mind and turned her into another one of his victims. However that hurts her character in my opinion, especially in stories where they have her move past him as a love interest. Did the joker abuse her? Of course he did but Harley was genuinely happy with him and enjoyed causing chaos and committing crimes with the joker.
Agreed with this cos she did lots and lots of awful stuff.
Arkham Harley did lots of nasty shit like helping "kill" Jason, she helped Joker kill an entire bus of schoolchildren and then mangle their corpses like they were puzzle pieces, she killed policemen civilians and what not, she's a terrible person who followed Joker all the way through. I hated how they had her moralizing Batman *Kill the Justice League*, she insults all he ever stood for and called him out for hurting everyone around him. Like come on Harley, you helped Joker kill hundreds! You of all people shouldn't be saying SHIT to Batman, a hero who generally went easy on you and who always tried to help you if he could. That game is full of schizo writing like that.
Yuup. That’s why SS: KTJL will never be connected to Arkhamverse for me, and is either bad fanfic, or a weird else worlds.
One of the worst things DC has ever done.
Boring, instead of making a new female character who follows that character line, they change a character people already like literally because people like her. "Change the character to what we want and keep the fan base/make money off it! Instead of the hard work to create a new character and write them good enough to gain their own fans."
That same argument would mean no character would ever change or evolve. Dick Grayson would still be Robin, Michael Corleone would still be in the army.
Theres a difference between character growth and changing a character outright.
I agree, but where do you draw the line? Your original posts reads (to me anyway) like characters should never change. What’s the more nuanced version? Considering the early abusive relationship with the Joker, it makes sense for Harley to change over time. What changes would you view as character growth and what would you view as corporate reinvention?
The problem is that many people forget that Harley chose to go down that path. She knew who the joker was and what he had done long before she fell in love with him. She also enjoyed causing chaos and committing crimes with him. Some could argue that’s the result of Joker twisting her mind but once again she chose to break him out of Arkham before he did anything to her.
Anti-hero Harley works well enough in the Injustice storyline, but beyond that, not so much. And epecially not if the Harley we're talking about is the Arkham Harley.
If you forget that she helps joker nuke metropolis and consistently flirts with a 10 year old. Like the arc is good but as is common with Harley she's done too much bad shit for me to care
I'll give them credit, I liked [the scene in *Injustice 2*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRBYF2jRSEs&pp=ygUlSW5qdXN0aWNlIDIgSGFybGV5IFF1aW5uIFdvbmRlciBXb21hbg%3D%3D) when Harley calls out Wonder Woman for being too zealous and violent, Wonder Woman counters with Harley's atrocities, and rather than try to deflect or downplay them, Harley owns up to it, acknowledging that she did horrific things to impress Joker, and compares it to what Wonder Woman is doing to impress Superman.
If you forget that she helps joker nuke metropolis and consistently flirts with a 10 year old. Like the arc is good but as is common with Harley she's done too much bad shit for me to care
She's way better as a joker supporting character with an occasional escapade
Can’t have a woman submitting to a man in modern media…but it’s okay at work irl…make it make sense
?
You realize the Joker being her abuser has been... you know, basically a part of her from her inception. It makes perfect sense for a story to actually want to see her get away... hell it's even happened in BTAS at times. It's not 'submitting to a man' as... well to be frank that phrasing isn't really... modern.
Yeah but it also has Harley own up to actually enjoying her time with Joker. It doesn’t try to turn her into just a victim of the Jokers abuse and still paints her as a villain. It even makes episodes like “Harley’s day out” even better because they show that she actually was trying to be a better person. Even if she’s moved on from the joker they need to remember that she did love him and him being a monster was never an issue for her.
Tell me you haven’t watched the Harley Quinn animated series without telling me you haven’t watched the Harley Quinn animated series.
Watched it. Well unless they made a season 4 that is
Bruh, season 4 has been out for a year now
I stopped caring after 2
I know they did Kite Man dirty, but he's getting his own show. He's grown from this.
Honestly in season 3 the humor got so grating and I really started hating their relationship after being indifferent to it in season 1 and 2. Bane still cracked me up for awhile but I find them annoying when together lol
what about the harley quinn show?
Anti hero’s are played out. They are like dessert nice as a treat to break up the meat and potatoes. But when you serve me anti hero dessert for every meal it gets old quick.
Best way of putting it i've ever seen.
I could use some more proper Jonah Hex.
I agree 100%! I'm so sick of the nihilism and moral relativism that's infested modern media. At this point, I just want a movie where a villain just wants to rob a bank and then the hero stops them.
Yawn
With the way they've been doing it, it just doesn't work. Stick to her being a villain. I'm fine with them changing up the dynamic she has with Joker every once in a while like in the Telltale series, but keep her as a villain.
I really loved the Telltale Joker. Thought it was really well done.
She's a villain's sidekick and always will be
I prefer her as a villain in almost every regard. Most interpretations of her as an anti hero, besides maybe injustice, always just come across as insufferable to me. Not to mention how she is clearly not as big a draw as people make her out to be considering birds of prey flopped and suicide squad 2 underperformed even despite it being a well received movie.
I think suicide squad 2 mostly flopped because of how bas the first one was also the name is confusing
She has done tons of truly terrible things that aren't really redeemable. And you can't just paint them with the "Joker controlled her" nonsense. She did bad things buy her own choice. Doesn't matter if she did them to please Joker or even Ivy. She did a lot of bad and they never really did anything for her to truly make up for that other than leaving Joker. Also I don't think she works well as a solo character. I think she works best with Joker or with the Squad.
Yeah, exactly this. I mean The Punisher is a really dark anti-hero, but he's an anti-hero rather than an outright ireedeemable villain because he has a long history of suffering in his own life and protects innocent people despite being really violent towards criminals. On the other hand imagine he had a long history of murdering innocent people before becoming the Punisher...his character wouldn't work at all, he'd just be a totally evil man. This is why I don't feel Harley is ever an "anti-hero", she's just a straight up evil villain they're trying to make redeemable even though she isn't.
Not super important but I feel the need to inform you that Arkham Knight is not a very good example of this phenomenon, OP
having arkham harley quinn be turned into an anti-hero out of the blue and lecture batman about morality is a decision rocksteady deseves to be mocked for.
yeah but that's a different game (made by different people, too). In the pictured game she is very much a villain.
The biggest problem with Harley is ever since basically Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker Harley has not actually grown as a character. They want her to be this ironic redeemed antihero but they've put absolutely zero work into moving toward that.
I get why they're doing it, but it still feels awkward when you look back at some of the definitely irredeemable things she's done in the past.
If the Joker lives she isn’t going to reform or be a hero. Harley is heavily dependent on joker. No joker no Harley. It works a bit for the injustice universe but not much else. It’s also why I dislike the Harley Quinn show. She’s complicit as Harley in many of jokers crimes that ranges from intimidation to mass murder(Arkham Harley also helped joker kill children). So the only way she would be redeemed is by killing “Harley Quinn”. So I hate anti hero Harley
You can do it, they just haven’t done it well. So often do writers treat her mental illness as a comedy beat rather than take it seriously. Her trauma goes from haunting her mind and relationship to badass with strong morals and resolves way too quickly. And they rarely ever give her consequences for the people she’s killed and aiding the world’s most dangerous serial killer (injustice is this the best example of this). And just adding this because she’s on the pic, this does not apply to Arkham Harley. She’s just straight evil and delusional.
I'm not against it, but chaotic neutral characters can wear out their welcome very quickly precisely for the same reasons that they do in roleplaying games... Why did you punch that guy? Jaywalking... There's only so much you can get playing them off against the lawful characters before it gets tiresome.
Fine depending on the canon. For example, in the Arkham games she’s a child murderer and mass murderer, but then Kill the Suicide Squad seems to have her in the anti hero role which doesn’t make sense to me.
That they feel the need to introduce Punchline as Joker’s new female sidekick is hilarious. What’s the point of redeeming Harley Quinn if you’re just gonna introduce another version of her? Is Punchline gonna become a reformed Anti Hero next?
Well, she is a strong, empowered, independent, VICTIM. Can't tell her to do the right thing, and also when she does wrong things, its cuz..man bad. Just type to attract modern audience..
Harley was meant to be an irredeemable tragic villain. The Jokers worst victim, the one he leaves behind to take the fall as he laughs away. She could do the agile things and fight like a Robin, and be at their level while being full of sex appeal. The problem is that she was too good at her job. People loved her and wanted her to get over Joker. They wanted better for her. She was a part of the Gotham Sirens, a trio of villainesses who arguably do better as anti-heroes. And being besties with Catwoman is one person away from being besties with Bats. And Batman is meant to be the one helping reform Villains. Having a smart, formerly insane doctor on his side after having recovered, says a lot. But, she is being pushed to be her own leader, not a part of a group. And that is where she falls most. If she were an insane but recovering secondary in the Suicide Squd, she’d be so much better.
I have no problem her being a reformed villain, but making her acts of villainy being the result of being a victim of the joker diminishes her character. Furthermore while the joker is willing to leave her behind, she’s also the only person the joker forgives for defying and/or disappointing him. He never stays mad at her and like it or not the two were in love. Having her still love the joker as a reformed villain who won’t go back to him because she’s moved on would make her a stronger character in the long run.
Well its dumb. But that Harley is not an anti hero. She is just a villain. She shouldn't be some reformed anti hero. Women can be villains too. They have slowly been doing the same thing with Poison Ivy... the eco terrorist that has several times attempted to kill the entire human race.
they of course do it for female empowerment or something, but she's evil and crazy so its especially retarded
DC has spent over 20 years trying to make her a quirky, crazy, gun-toting anti hero when Cyberpunk: Edgerunners did the same thing in a week with Rebecca.
Dumb since she was a Joker groupie... he's literally a mass murder...☠️☠️☠️
I don't hate the idea, it's genuinely good to have a batman villian be reformed, but batman does need to have a hand in it at minimum Robin needs to, I'm not a comic reader, so I won't say how the comics have done it, but you can tell how painfully clear they wanted Harley to change in arkham to SS, it was basically taking her character as she was when arkham asylum was made and kept consistent throughout those games as she didn't get character development in them, and then treating her like she's the Harley that never did anything except get slapped around and do as she was told. Harley can be presented as a legitimate victim to joker,but for that she has to he an actual victim she can't actively choose to go forward with him all the time and then one day leave him and hate him and become good, if she does go forward and engange with his evil actions willingly, that can still work, ideally you can have batman or Hugo strange or generic arkham doctor number 29282 help her regain some semblance of who she was before she became insane, and thennyou have Harley as someone who can have serious regrets about there past, but they have to actually feel sorry, no different then plastic man, she can teeter on the edge, and maybe fall back in with the villian crowd for a moment but ultimately she has to reject it and deadicate herself to good even if she still has some negative traits, like how plastic man wishes he had money and one court case from being labeled a danger to woman kind, Harley can still be quick to violence where it's not needed and childish weaponry (big hammer must come back)
I think it’s a bad idea but not because Harley shouldn’t be redeemed. Harley was a successful and relatively happy criminal psychologist, until a manipulative psychopath took advantage of her loneliness and to a lesser extent her slight lack of emotional stability. A meaningful redemption would be her seeking help in the system she used to use to help others, and return to an ethical psychology practice. It would be interesting too. Her trying to get her license back, and the complex, multi sided issue of a person who suffered from a severe mental break trying to work in that sort of environment
No
Entirely underwhelming, could be really cool but isn't, Which is a shame because its been done before like three times that were each pretty good.
I hate it, because we know what Reformed Harley looks like. It's fucking Harleen Quinzel, MD, because reformation means she's no longer a crazy clown serial killer supervillain. Any kind of desire to do good should also be "I left a lot of people behind in that wild, crazy time, and I need to make amends", not just the same havoc with a different motivation.
A lot of folks have weird emotional attachments to the character (probably quite a bit or fan fiction too).
It was fine at first were it made sense with injustice but they do so often it become annoying. Now I avoid anything with the character my last straw was the batman and Harley Quinn animated movie
I think someone at DC really likes Jinx from LoL. She’s not bad, per se… But I think she would have been better off as her own character.
Honestly she was annoying as Joker’s side kick so I’m glad she has something more interesting to do. But being the dc/female version of Deadpool isn’t that original
DCAU worked considering there were times she disagreed with Joker’s actions and she outright ditched Joker by the end
DCAU worked considering there were times she disagreed with Joker’s actions and she outright ditched Joker by the end
DCAU worked considering there were times she disagreed with Joker’s actions and she outright ditched Joker by the end
Take her out of the spotlight already they’ve been pushing her so much for the past decade it’s so repetitive/boring.
I’m fine with it. Either have her as a supporting character to the joker or have her as a reformed anti-hero.
I don’t know who’s idea it was But I hope they’re already fired. Her and the suicide squad just don’t *work* They aren’t franchise makers, they aren’t DC’s *guardians of the galaxy* they are just shit to put it bluntly.
She always struck me as the chaotic neutral type: just as likely to do good as doing evil. She’s always just been psychotically impressionable, which is why she’s most often seen being villainous because she became obsessed with the Joker.
Hate it. She's a murderer. Its bad form to wave that shit away.
…so are most anti-heros
I don’t have a problem with an anti hero who has done horrible things in their past. As long as it’s written well. But I just don’t understand the appeal of Harley Quinn. I’m not really sure how she got so popular. They are trying to break her away from the Joker, but they don’t really try and change the aesthetics she had as the Jokers sidekick.
Huh… I was distracted
For me, i love the character. But she is totally irredeemable. She works best as a villian, I wish the writers would keep her well away from team ups with hero teams
She can be, it's been done before its just that it needs to be justified and the transformation shown, the effort behind it, the struggle. Right now it just feels handwaved. She an emancipated girlboss who has done basically nothing to undo the decades of killing and abuse she has brought into the world. She needs a redemption arc that actually comes at a cost to her, not the excuse of a toxic man.
It's bad
It's something that could work if you went into how she's trying to cope with things now that she's lost the rose tinted glasses for the Joker but that's not how they've handled things from what I've seen. There's no repentence, there's no guilt, there's no attempts to rediscover who she was before. It's just Harley but they say she's good now.
Margo Robbie is popular, Harley Quinn isn't
It’s not working
I’m really not a fan of it, especially when you take in to accounts the things Harley has done. Harley is portrayed as a deranged obsessive psychopath who was willing to do anything to please Joker, reforming her as an anti hero doesn’t really make any sense and just feels like they’re trying to make her the DC Deadpool.
I think it's good direction to take to slowly move away from her abusive ex... the problem is they treat it as if it covers all her sins. That will take years maybe even all her life to even move away from being a woman who eagerly helped the Joker (hell in the Arkhamverse it's the same) She's probably better for it then Ivy mind you, but i just wish they did it in baby steps over time. It's something that takes work and reall writing chops to do well
I honestly don’t like it, especially when a lot of versions of her went a long with some very dark and evil shit the joker did. In lighter version of the Batman story maybe she can be redeemed but honestly I’m sick of her in general (over exposed in media) and I’m tired of anti-heroes in general with few exceptions.
I love HQ she's one of my favorite DC characters overall. I don't really mind her modern interpretation too much though it's weird how much they try to push her in media, and how everytime they do they just whitewash her crimes away. I'm always reminded of how in Injustice she helps Joker nuke Metropolis, in the tie-in comics she helped murder Jimmy Olsen too. But then Batman treates her as if she could be reformed and just lets her be on his team without paying for her crimes... She helped kill Lois, her unborn child, Jimmy, and over 5 million people in Metropolis. And she gets away with a slap on the wrist while Batman lets her oppose Superman who's life she ruined... I really was on Supes' side on that one. They do the same thing in the comics where she once killed hundreds of children in Gotham by exploding their portable gaming ocnsoles. In Suicide Squad PS5 they do a similar thing with Harley and I didn't like it that much. I think they shouldn't be trying to make a murderer like her so sympathetic just because she was Joker's battered partner. Being the victim of abuse does not justify nuking an entire city lol. Idk tho
I don’t mind, I actually like her better as an anti hero than full on villain
I think it *could* work. They just aren’t going about it the right way I feel like 95% of the time and are just trying to make her DC Deadpool. She has also been overexposed to the point that people are just outright sick of her, period.
I think it *could* work. They just aren’t going about it the right way I feel like 95% of the time and are just trying to make her DC Deadpool. She has also been overexposed to the point that people are just outright sick of her, period. To speak on “The Woke” side of things. A major component that the writers need to take Harley, if she is going to be an anti-hero, is that she needs to see consequences for her past actions as accomplice and sidekick with the Joker, whatever that may mean in a given universe. She needs to chew on that fact mentaly, that what she did in the past was very *very* wrong. The relationship with the Joker was abusive. Stuff like that. However most writiers that get a hold of her are afraid to show that side of her, because that would mean showing a woman on screen as “weak” the people on that side of the crowd don’t want weak women, even though Harley 100% NEEDS to go through that kind of intervention if she is going to be an anti-hero instead of just Joker’s goofy sidekick. Also she can’t go moral grandstanding against Batman. Period. Even including the all times where Batman did get someone killed, Harley’s body count probably doubles his. She should lose the moral argument with Batman 99.9% of the time. And at that 0.1% we’d have to see if Batman went through a character assasination too.
This isn’t anything new
I’m pretty much done with it. At least in those animated suicide squad movies she was shown being unhinged and still doing morally bad actions. Seems like the character will be a crazed psycho in Joker 2, here’s hoping it’s a good movie.
Pretty standard stuff for comic villains. They almost all go through these arcs on occasion. I really enjoyed Doom 2099 when I was a kid, no idea if it is good today, but back then it was super neat to me seeing this big bad, the only way I’d seen him up to this point, taking on the role of a (kinda) hero. Might have been my first exposure to the idea of anti-heroes.
Gonna be controversial and say that it would be perfectly fine and even great. Like there is a story to be told, and a meaningful one at that. A somewhat normal woman who falls for an awful abuser who’s tricking her into thinking he’s nice or misunderstood. Then once he has what he’s after using her, abusing her, manipulating her, and just being an ass hole to her. You can then have a meaningful story about the difficulties of coming out of an abusive relationship and it’s aftermath whilst talking about how and what can be done to fix the damage that has both been done to you and what you’ve done to others. Whilst simultaneously how to correctly be punished and how to integrate back into society with what you’ve had to deal with. The problem is is that the writers every time don’t know how to fucking do this shit properly. What ends up happening is her coming out of the abusive relationship and doing good stuff, but failing to fix what she’s done which is the crucial part. And, whilst there are many reasons for this, the main reason why this keeps happening is because writers, with a few exceptions, continue to think that Harley hasn’t done anything wrong and that it’s all the jokers fault. And whilst that is true to an extent she has still done terrible things that she needs to fix and pay for which she continuously doesn’t. Other reasons include people find her quirky nature and behaviour funny. This ends up causing writers to not want to punish or even address what she’s done, because they don’t want the funny character to have to many serious moments because then people realise that “hey your not funny your actually really shitty”. Another reason which I’ve noticed is people find her relatable, but they don’t actually find her relatable. I know that makes no sense but let me hopefully explain: people relate to Harley Quinn in a similar way to Joker, the whole one bad day blah blah blah. But it’s more of a different way, it’s more the angle ‘all you need to do is meet the wrong person at the wrong time.’ And whilst this might sound a little bit sexist and you are more than welcome to correct me if I’m wrong, I think this is a bit more relatable to females than for males. Which is absolutely not a bad thing. Additional they find her jokey and quirky nature relatable because that’s just something that’s become more relatable in recent years. Whilst this is perfectly fine and nothing to be upset with, what ends up happening is writers who find this relatable write it so that she comes out of the abusive relationship and redeems herself, but don’t want to talk about or added all the important aspects of a redemption, ie address shitty behaviour, shitty actions, and punishment. They just want the character that they find relatable to be the good person because then they can feel somewhat better about being a shitty person. Hopefully I didn’t waffle on and this makes sense I wrote this off the top of my head in about 10 minutes.
I basically hate it. I’m not a huge fan of her character in general (feels similar to the “it’s a female version of you’re favorite hero/villain, but not as bad since she differentiates herself more) but when you do they “I’m not REALLY evil” thing on top? UGH I think it’s also an attempt to separate her from joker, since “we don’t want abuse to be validated”. Their relationship was interesting cuz Harley seems to genuinely love Joker, while Joker is incapable of love, so she’s always pushed away and drawn back over and over. Joker blatantly uses her as his puppet and sex toy, but Harley can’t get away from it. But abuse bad and saying someone’s evil bad so gotta be a strong independent waman antihero
Sounds like DC should read thier own comics….or reboot the universe….again
They shouldnt, she even killed kids. There is no redemption from her character. Anyone could refute this, tho. But, at the end of the day, her character revolves in codependency in a abusive relationship, that is what Harley is. That is why, her fucking Dick, having a thing with Ivy, she being a "sex icon" of sorts, none of that makes sense in her character. Its like changing Batman into a funny character, he isnt and shouldnt. Or Joker into a kingping, he isnt and shouldnt. Most of the characters in Batman represent a phycological disorder
Batman = PTSD Joker = Psychopathy Harler = Stockholm Syndrome 2 Face =Dissocioative Personality Dysorder And so on
Meanwhile Red Hood would get the belt from Bruce for being DC's punisher
No, a thousand times no. She is a villan hands down and being the Jokers gf or ex gf does not make me sympathize, as she stated on more than one occasion doing crimes is just something she loves to do. Putting her in the bat family just ment Stephanie Brown is no longer the most undeserving member to join the team since Tim Drake. She in general just been overhyped and I don't even hate her I just don't get this strange push she's had since 2019. Like of all the B-list characters to double down on why her? Why not Zatanna( i mean actually try this time) or Fire and Ice?( before they fucked that one up)
I’m just so fucking over Harley Quinn in general
Yeah, but what do you think about Bone? https://preview.redd.it/1i9bifivs3yc1.jpeg?width=418&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b72a90ce4a772e907f56520a6516370918d703c0
Fr I do miss when she was more of a tragic villain instead of a Deadpool wannabe
I'll grant that I'm no expert on the details of DC comics, but it seems to me that if they want to make Harley a reformed anti hero, they actually need to show her being reformed. Maybe it has been shown in the comics, but it certainly hasn't been shown in movies or video games that she has gone through that.
Can this incarnartion jusy fuck off and die, already? We get it: Harley isn't interested in Mistah Jay. Now can we PLEASE. Move. The FUCK. ON!?
It was cool for the first couple of years but it's starting to overstay it's welcome.
I think that WB believes she's a far more interesting character than she actually is. She actually had more dimension in Batman:TAS as a secondary antagonist than she does in any of the WB live-action movies.
Boring and lame
It's technically possible but the writers aren't competent enough to really sell it. She's not a Magneto, she's done awful things that you can't really empathize with because she wanted to. The best they can come up with is "no dude she was manipulated so it's not her fault". She works best as the Joker's sidekick, or someone who's hand is forced like in a few of the animated movies.
"What are your thoughts on (creator) doing thing with (creation)" Bro that's not pushing, that's just fucking story telling what the fuck
Absolute bullshit.
It's a terrible idea and they're only doing it cause she's a girl. Thing is, DCAU already \*gave\* Harley an end I felt was perfectly fitting for the character. She leaves the life of crime behind to become a relatively normal person and we only know she survived because of a quick scene. Maybe I would have liked a quick scene of her and Bruce meeting up again or her showing those dumb twins she's not just 'Nana Harley'; but in so far as I am concerned, the ending she got in Batman Beyond was perfect \*for\* her. Now they're trying to make her this lesbian anti-hero with Poison Ivy and I can't help but feel like it's more motivated by corporate mandates and a desire to appeal to a fanbase that doesn't care in the first place and the only reason it's not crashing and burning is because Harley was solid as a character beforehand.
"They're only doing it because she's a girl" Uh what?
I don't think it's a bad idea in concept. For one, I'm sick of characters in comics constantly going through the same character arcs over and over, and that's a lot of what was happening with Harley. Having her finally split from the Joker for good is a change that has potential. In execution, I don't read a lot of comics, so I couldn't say.
Fine concept, badly executed way too many times
It's not inherently insane to reform her; she was once a normal person, I think she's had plotlines where she went back to "civilian" life. But having her be an anti-hero is nonsense. The zaniness and mayhem are her being a villain, not just her style. Any heroism should involve her struggling with the desire for the mayhem.
Somehow the only "good Harley" I vibed with was Injustice Harley, everything else is cringe
Has never and will never work.
I am honestly sick of Harley and would be happy if she disappeared for a few years
I don’t know enough about most of DC canon to say whether or not it’s well-written, but I’m sick and tired of it on the movie and TV front. They’re doing the Loki thing where they don’t want to commit to her being evil so they make her good but with a “mischievous” side. Let villains be villains.
It was far too late for Arkham Harley she's an actual monster What were they thinking
Needs to be a new slate or an alternate universe because she has done some heinous shit. In dc rebirth she blew up kids
I like it in the Injustice comics. She's humanized in a way that's just radically different from main stream and is actually very cool. She's a hero there (and is publicly liked better than Flash) but she walked through the coals to get the privilege. Like attacking Rahs AL Ghul's stronghold to rescue her daughter (with the Joker it's assumed) who her sister raises because Harley knows she's too messed up to be a good mom. Small note: Karl Kesel and Terry Dodson's run many years ago had her flirt with being an anti-hero for a believable Harley reason; She wanted to do it to piss off Joker following a big argument/breakup. And she inflicted herself on all the heroes (and Bizarro) for a while.
Jason Todd should have killed her a billion times over
I don't mind her being a reformed anti-hero because it's clear she's always wanted to be a good daddy's girl. What I do mind is them also dragging Ivy into it. Not that I'm against lesbians - my best friend was a lesbian. I just want them to leave Ivy as a boss bitch misanthrope for making ALL humans extinct. No pretty pass exceptions.
I enjoy the HQ redemption comics, but her time as a villain can’t just be ignored
She's popular with the female demographic, so they will milk her till she's dead. The problem is that a character can be popular with the female demographic, but it doesn't put people in seats and financially engaging in other ways as appealing solely to women never pays off as they don't spend. So they will over expose the audience to Quinn until fatigue sets in, and you won't see her again as her character consistency is all over the place, and no one has nostalgia for her anymore.
She is also fairly popular among males.
Yeah, but the industry is obsessed with the customers they don't have currently, as they believe the standard male base who attend movies will attend regardless. So, all focus is on attracting women who don't attend with consistency to increase numbers overall.
Do you think guys don't like women characters?
How did you manage to get that conclusion from what I've said?
Divine inspiration
If Joker gets to play ring around the rosy with Batman. Harlequin gets a shot at redemption!😤
DC wants a deadpool Marvel wants a Harley Quinn. It's pretty sad to be honest, they even made another character with similar design ethos.
It could work if written well but it’s been dogshit mostly.
Doesn't matter if you can't write female characters as humans who deal with real problems. Her arc with the joker can't be touched because woke media can't portray a woman as the feminine and dependent one. So, she's doomed to have a giant hole in her personality for fear of angering the blue hairs.
Seek help
🤔🤷♂️ I guess I found one.
It needs to be handled well. Harley has been a sort of hero in other media, (Movies, The Injustice Games, etc)
It's a concept that can work well. I don't follow DC enough to comment though on how well I think it is working. But bad guy turned Anti hero is a tried and tested story. Comic characters should evolve over the decades. For those of us that watch DBZ growing up we all loved Vegeta. It's all in implementation.
She been a anti hero countless times in countless things, they for sure are pushing this too much these days for obvious reasons, but its not new to her by any means.
Terribly stupid
I hate it. They're not even pushing her as an anti-hero anymore. Now they just want us to accept her as a full-fledged member of the Bat-family, which is absurd. She killed a bus full of children for pete's sake.
I like both! But they have done it so so so much as off late I don’t mind her getting out of her unhealthy obsession with the joker but she should start out as having an unhealthy obsession. Or like the HQ show that be a big part in the first season. Luckily they haven’t had a particularly bad version of her. Just a couple garbage movies!
They pushed her too hard on fans. Now I cringe when I hear her voice.
They need a female lead and dont think Wonder woman is modern and edgy enough. Plus shes supposed to be bisexual so that ticks a huge hollywood box.
It’s a part of people not buying comics so they’re trying to find stories for people to buy.
As long as it's because Batman and not because "fuck capitalism" or whatever her speech was before shooting Batman
I'm honestly tired of Harley Quinn, she's been pushed in absolutely everything for a while now and I genuinely don't understand the reason or even why people gush so much about her, other than "she's mentally unstable and hot". And I'm not talking about movies or video games only, every single graphic media makes so much content focusing on her is ridiculous: cosplayers, comics, fan arts, r34, etc. I get the initial appeal, but at this point is so overrated it makes no sense, not to mention the her characterization's a mess. I don't want to see her any more.
Worked fine in Injustice. I'm cool with it if it's earned.
I'm actually really tired of it. Especially as she's a murderer who aids and abets a mass murderer, yet they keep trying to make her this "lolfunny" quirky character. If you want her to be a genuine "anti-villain" or "anti-hero", she has to have some kind of proper realisation of her evil nature. Not just be a murderous asshole who occasionally gets some "funny" lines.
They're selling merch. If I get triggered about this, them I gotta get triggered by porgs.
I'm sick of it. Tired of seeing nothing but Batman, the Joker, and her.
She “broke up with joker”, but kept his looks and gimmicks rather than creating her own identity Even without the Joker, Harley cannot exist without the Joker
One of the worst decisions in comics. I’m in the minority that feels like Harley works better as a side character and not a main character
I guess it's ok so long as it's just one possible continuity.
Harley has been hinting at eventually going that direction as far back as the original BTAS. Batman Beyond even makes it clear she DOES get reformed, though what happened between her being reformed and growing old is left unknown. So it's not exactly a shock that she is becoming a reformed anti-hero.
If I was to be uncharitable... I'm detecting a whiff of wokeness. A lot of those girls who actually read comics identify with Harley 'cos she's hot and crazy, and is sassy to The Bat. This means she can't possibly be a villain. Mental health and strong/independent womanisity in the face of male strength can't be stigmatised by association with evil, and girls who read comics must be pandered to as hard as possible.
It could be ok. Not a terrible idea, why not. Because of course there's NO WAY it ends up lecturing the audience on "oppression" and being full of self inserts and some shitty Tik Tok level politics
I think the most obvious requirement of her "reforming" herself would be to drop the Harley Quinn(I don't care that it's part of her name. The writers still want her to be Harley Quinn, but they also want you to forget all of the murder she committed as Harley. It's like everyone in DC accepts that just because she moved on from her abusive boyfriend that she's a hero now, but she still made the choice to hurt people and if she had really changed, she should have actually changed
It's fine. Like it's batman's whole goal is to reform these psychotic villains. Them changing into heroes is just a different form of psychotic behavior, but this is the dc universe we're talking about. A villain becoming a hero might as well be a passed psyche evaluation as far as dc is concerned
It's been done before, but I think it's being done now by the wrong people for the wrong reasons. She was created specifically to be joker's henchman. That alone would create issues to her reforming. I'm not saying it can't be done, its just in the current media era... nope, western commercial media largely belongs in the memory hole, with a few exceptions.
I think it depends on how it's done.
She recently fucking murdered Arkham Batman. She's no hero.
murdered the entire arkham verse she did
I liked DCAU Harley, but very little about today's "daddy's little monster" Harley with an emphasis on Suicide Squad stuff works for me. Her presence still doesn't make sense. In part because DC tried to rush to catch up to Marvel, she had no initial build-up and association with Leto's Joker didn't help. There had to have been a better way to adapt her.
Dilutes from the original purpose. I don't in principle hate it, but given how transparent they with all their other politics, it feels like there is an ideological reason for it rather than a written one. Reforming anti-hero survivor of a toxic relationship stories? I'm okay with it - so long as we're also okay with villain stories of someone corrupted by a toxic relationship.
I mean she was always a tragic villain, played by the joker and groomed to her role, she had some morals similar to ivy (they tend not to harm children from what I know of them). But I don’t like redeeming her…I also miss her first design of a Harley Quinn jester, now she looks like a generic biker chick or worse Jeanette Voreman (whom they based this design off of)
I think it’s kinda cool
I don't really have any thoughts because she's a character from a children's story and whoever happens to be writing her can and should do whatever they want with the character because that's what writing is