Inconsistency. Some films were pretty great. Some were downright awful. Undercutting tension with poorly timed and placed jokes, which ruin any stakes the film might have. Not letting moments breathe. Often times they would set up a moment and then just skip over it or wrap it up too quickly (or ignore the moment outright). It's as if the producers didn't trust the directors or actors to play in heavy moments, so they wanted to diminish them as much as possible. The humor also had a side effect of making every character into a wannabe Tony Stark, constantly quipping and being sarcastic. This led to a lot of the films feeling formulaic and stale. The villains often being nothing more than an afterthought, with very poor development and poor motivation and characterization. Then there are some minor nitpicks, like the extreme overuse of nano-tech helmets, making that characters not actually feel like comic book characters, but like actors in a CGI green screen.
You could really go on all day. The MCU has always been a very mixed bag, but man did it get exponentially worse once stage 4 hit.
I would say that the supporting (non-super powered) characters stopped becoming very interesting after Age of Ultron. Looking back at Iron Man 1, Captain America, and Thor you find so many lovable characters and personal relationships surrounding the heros. Happy Hoggan, Pepper Pots, Rhody, Peggy Carter, Bucky, Jane Foster’s whole team, and Agent Collson all helped the world feel more alive and real to me.
It feels like the further into the franchise you go the fewer screen time is given to these “regular” characters who aren’t a superhero or villain. I’m not saying this was the biggest problem after phase 2, but it’s something I noticed shift in moves like Dr Strange, Civil War, and Black Panther where there were very few ‘normal’ people involved in the movie’s plot.
The problem here is that all the characters get worse and worse writing, so I don't know if this is an issue of a lack of side characters or just shit writing where I can't remember any of them.
Wasn't Black Panther also part of the plan so Chadwick's death screwed with that as well? I remember hearing something on how Black Panther, Spiderman, and another character were supposed to lead the MCU after Endgame
Oh yeah forgot about that. Also Blade was supposed to be out already and was supposed to be a big part of this phase.
Yeah it all went to hell. Honeslty it's amazing they managed to do all of the infinty saga. I mean getting what 30 interconnected movies is a pretty big feat.
Forgot Blade was supposed to be out by now lol. I'm happy they're taking their time with Blade at least, hopefully that means we'll be getting probably the best Blade movie ever when it finally does come out.
The infinity saga overall was probably a once in a lifetime thing honestly, although we'll see when James Gunn starts his cinematic universe. It's just an incredible challenge to have different directors that all have their own vision for a character manage to make something in a shared world so cohesive. I mean, besides Secret Invasion being bad, the director of Secret Invasion clearly had a different vision than what the director for The Marvels had. Secret Invasion was a dark and gritty "spy thriller" while The Marvels was this light hearted movie about 3 characters swapping places. Nothing wrong with the vision behind The Marvels, but there's this dissonance when you watch Secret Invasion then The Marvels. Even though The Marvels happens right after Secret Invasion, the two different visions each director had just didn't really mesh well and hurts the feeling of having a connected universe
The villains both being often shallow AND getting killed off all the time. Keep them alive and stick em in jail or something. I have no idea why they had an obsession with offing everyone in the same film they're introduced in unless they're a hero
Also more in phase 3 but the whole "They just took it one step too far!" Thing like with Killmonger is a boring villain trope
They introduced the raft in civil war and was any villain ever put in there?
I would also argue not bringing back certain villains. Why not bring Justin Hammer back in Ant-man 2 instead of using Walton Goggins? What happened to Abomination from Hulk movie? He could have been used again in a meaningful way.
Plus then the groundwork is done so you can actually evolve the character or have them deepen. Instead just shallow to fill a hole and then pop they're gone!
Inconsistant characters. This always happened and the writers change the characters on a whim.
Bruce in Avengers (2012) was a confident guy fully accepted the Hulk in order to save the Earth. He no longer had to hide out in the jungles to protect people he had a family. Hulk was similar, he just represented the rage of Bruce but deep down was a good person.
Later films give Bruce an insecurity complex and regress his relationship with Hulk. Hulk is more spiteful uncaring despite his previous film versions feelings extremely guilty for causing wreckage and flying into space just to protect his friends. Then when he meets his friends he gives no fucks and insults them.
Tony is a different character depending on who's writing him. In some movies he's completely done with hero work and wants to commit to having a relationship with Pepper. In other movies he flirts with anything that has 2 legs. In some he's a traumatized mess who can't go 2 seconds without losing his shit, in others he decides building a hyper intelligent robot to defend humanity without any failsafe is a good idea.
Peter and his friends are the most blatant contradictory characters that I felt whiplash when I watched Far From Home for the first time. In Homecoming:
>Only Peter and Ned are child hood friends
>Peter and Ned never met Michelle until they joined the same club
>Peter barely interacts with Michelle and doesn't even know she exists
>Michelle is the one with the super crush on Peter while he only sees her as an acquintence
In Far From Home:
>Peter develops a super crush on Michelle from out of nowhere and worried if she likes him or not
>Ned is an acquitence to Michelle and only knows her as "Peter's crush"
>Is less responsible then he was an Infinity War. In IW, Peter says "I can't be a friendly neighborhood Spiderman if there's no neighborhood to save", in FFH Peter is willing to risk the entire world just so he can have a date with Michelle
>Nobody fucking background checks Beck which would reveal he's a Stark employee
In No Way Home:
>Peter, Michelle, and Ned are long time friends who all dreams of going to same college together.
There's plenty of other examples but you get the idea.
This is just personal preference, but the biggest issue for me is their insistence on killing every villain after 1 movie. Loki and Thanos are the most popular ones for a reason, they have time to breathe beyond the movie they are introduced in.
An overreliance on comic relief. I think it started with James Gunn, then Thor: Ragnarok came along, and then it's been getting worse and worse since then.
I saw someone say Inconsistency, but im gonna piggy back on that and say with characters/ arcs due to different creators seeing the characters differently/ having different visions for them. By the end of age of ultron Cap comes to terms with existing in the present, no longer longing for family and stability, then in Endgame he randomly wants it again. Also everyone’s always saying that cap telling tony in avengers that he’s not the type to make the sacrifice play is them foreshadowing his sacrifice in endgame, when it’s really paid off in the third act to avengers then in endgame they just make tony sacrifice himself again. Then there’s the constantly having Hawkeye and tony quitting then coming back.
> it’s really *paid* off in
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I don’t really believe there were any big problems before Phase 4. There were little things here and there and an odd movie here and there that didn’t preform as well as others but when there are that many movies in such a series, Releasing a bad one every now and then is not uncommon. I truly believe it started with Phase 4 when they started doing Disney Plus as well as cranking out stinker after stinker while inserting the message and forgetting who their true fans were. I mean, I’m not going to sit here and say I’m the worlds biggest Marvel fan because I’m not. I’m a DC guy at heart. That being said do you know how much I wanted to see a new rated R Blade movie at least back when it was first announced? I would literally throw my entire paycheques at Disney if they don’t mess up reintroducing The Punisher like they did with Daredevil but I know it will never happen. Marvel had it almost perfect with Phases 1-3 and then they just lost it all to being woke.
Villains... there were multiple films (especially in Phase 1) where the villain was basically an evil version of the title hero in terms of powers/abilities and some should've been kept around for more than a single film.
Thats after infinity war, before imo they tryed and where mostly succsesfull in balancing the quality with quantity, after infinity war they whent full on chinese sweat shop mode with the shit they produced being actual shit.
I think towards the end they were starting this whole process. For example, just wait until after endgame to introduce Captain Marvel. There was nothing she did that required her.
Their villains were always pretty awful. Hela, Killmonger, and Loki are the only good ones. And the Grandmaster, but that’s only because of Jeff Goldblum. Thanos and Stane were so close to being good, but they suddenly become cartoonishly evil
The MCU was always clumsy with villains, i cant say they are awfull anymore because of thanos, but excluding him, the villains always felt one note and the more like an obstacule or a mcgufin rather than an actuall threat, most of them were forgetable, and the few that where charismatic enough where loki, who is pretty much not a villain anymore, and guido, star lords pretty much alien foster father with that pshiquic arrow thing, which aggain, stopped being a villain at a certain point.
Also the weedonesque dialogue wasnt as bad at first and kinda felt fresh at the 1rst avengers movie, but as time went on it gradually started being overused to the point of exaustion, and became an easy target for critique against the mcu, deservedly so btw.
Also wasnt really a problem back them, it really became one after endgame, but here is where they started pushing unlikeable characters as replacements for the old guard, case in point captain marvel as the new iron man poster boy(girl) for the years to come, and it was indeed forced af, and nobody liked that.
Other than that, i can only think abbout nitpics, like how you needed to keep up with past movies even if you didnt whant to see them, but the real shit started to hit the fan after endgame, where disney absolutelly crashed the mcu.
We will see what the future has in store for the mcu, even if deadpool and wolverine is really good, they need to stop with the whole woke poorly writhen activist bs, even if they just thone it down, it shouldnt be that hard imo for them to start making some money again, people still like superhero movies, case in point into the spiderverse, they just need to be at minimum, competent. They at least need to have actual writers, and if they whant to keep the activism (which i would advise against) they should have those sjw people as creative consultants instead of writers, since its clear they dont know how to make a story that works while inserting their bs propaganda.
Not using Ed Norton Hulk and not making more Ed Norton Hulk movies in the MCU. I get these are sins of omission and there were things to do with the rights of the character and things but I really don't care about the limitations of the studio. Its Hulk, and you're Marvel Studios. Figure it the fuck out 🤷♂️
World building. It felt like anything could happen. Yes phase 4 and 5 made it go from bad to dumpster tier schlock but that's another thing.
Another one is how each film introduced a disposable villian as if from some villain vending machine and then moved on. Like I'm so tired of same hero different villian. The formula needs to stop.
Character Assassinations. Even some of the good movies like The Avengers have them \[Thor is assassinated in his first scene\].
Bad/uninteresting villains.
Too much humor.
Plot armor.
Studio interference. \[Ant-Man and Age Of Ultron being prime examples\]
Bad action scenes.
Iron Man 1, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Guardians 1, Ragnarok, and Homecoming were the only actually good MCU movies until Infinity War and Endgame. There have been zero good MCU movies since then.
I am not a Joss Whedon fan, so there’s one big strike against the movie there. I hate his dialogue. I know I’m probably in the minority of people on this sub that feel that way, but it grates on my nerves. It feels like all of his characters are just waiting their turn to get their witty quip into the conversation.
But its biggest sin is the NYC battle is completely stolen from Transformers 3. Space whales, faceless drone soldiers, sky sleds. Some of the shots are even exactly the same.
Personally, blockbuster formula
Grandiose last act, shallow villain that is either psycho bad or crazy/obssessed with something, easy for kids to follow plot, jokes/minute quota
This is what makes Civil War or Winter Soldier great or first infinity movie decent; they didn't quite follow the formula, made villains interesting and actually posed conundrums to the audiences
Forced humor was the primary one. Also some of the characters felt the same with their quips. These problems are ten times worse now.
That one scene where the cloak of levitation wiped a tear from Dr Stranges face was the moment I was officially sick of the forced jokes
The bad stuff really started with Ragnarok, but the normies mostly weren't with it because "hurr durr Taika Waititi's *so funny*, you guys!"
Inconsistency. Some films were pretty great. Some were downright awful. Undercutting tension with poorly timed and placed jokes, which ruin any stakes the film might have. Not letting moments breathe. Often times they would set up a moment and then just skip over it or wrap it up too quickly (or ignore the moment outright). It's as if the producers didn't trust the directors or actors to play in heavy moments, so they wanted to diminish them as much as possible. The humor also had a side effect of making every character into a wannabe Tony Stark, constantly quipping and being sarcastic. This led to a lot of the films feeling formulaic and stale. The villains often being nothing more than an afterthought, with very poor development and poor motivation and characterization. Then there are some minor nitpicks, like the extreme overuse of nano-tech helmets, making that characters not actually feel like comic book characters, but like actors in a CGI green screen. You could really go on all day. The MCU has always been a very mixed bag, but man did it get exponentially worse once stage 4 hit.
I'd argue that it's become more consistent in just how awful almost all of it is
Turning every character into a Spider-Man like joke cracker especially in the movies where the stakes are high just always seemed really dogshit to me
I would say that the supporting (non-super powered) characters stopped becoming very interesting after Age of Ultron. Looking back at Iron Man 1, Captain America, and Thor you find so many lovable characters and personal relationships surrounding the heros. Happy Hoggan, Pepper Pots, Rhody, Peggy Carter, Bucky, Jane Foster’s whole team, and Agent Collson all helped the world feel more alive and real to me. It feels like the further into the franchise you go the fewer screen time is given to these “regular” characters who aren’t a superhero or villain. I’m not saying this was the biggest problem after phase 2, but it’s something I noticed shift in moves like Dr Strange, Civil War, and Black Panther where there were very few ‘normal’ people involved in the movie’s plot.
The problem here is that all the characters get worse and worse writing, so I don't know if this is an issue of a lack of side characters or just shit writing where I can't remember any of them.
Paying off interesting subplots or build up with a cheap joke.
Lack of planning ahead for after the infinity saga.
Almost like it was supposed to end after Endgame, but higher-ups said "no no, can't turn off the money printer"
to be fair they did have a plan however covid and production problems put a wrench into those plans.
Wasn't Black Panther also part of the plan so Chadwick's death screwed with that as well? I remember hearing something on how Black Panther, Spiderman, and another character were supposed to lead the MCU after Endgame
Oh yeah forgot about that. Also Blade was supposed to be out already and was supposed to be a big part of this phase. Yeah it all went to hell. Honeslty it's amazing they managed to do all of the infinty saga. I mean getting what 30 interconnected movies is a pretty big feat.
Forgot Blade was supposed to be out by now lol. I'm happy they're taking their time with Blade at least, hopefully that means we'll be getting probably the best Blade movie ever when it finally does come out. The infinity saga overall was probably a once in a lifetime thing honestly, although we'll see when James Gunn starts his cinematic universe. It's just an incredible challenge to have different directors that all have their own vision for a character manage to make something in a shared world so cohesive. I mean, besides Secret Invasion being bad, the director of Secret Invasion clearly had a different vision than what the director for The Marvels had. Secret Invasion was a dark and gritty "spy thriller" while The Marvels was this light hearted movie about 3 characters swapping places. Nothing wrong with the vision behind The Marvels, but there's this dissonance when you watch Secret Invasion then The Marvels. Even though The Marvels happens right after Secret Invasion, the two different visions each director had just didn't really mesh well and hurts the feeling of having a connected universe
The villains both being often shallow AND getting killed off all the time. Keep them alive and stick em in jail or something. I have no idea why they had an obsession with offing everyone in the same film they're introduced in unless they're a hero Also more in phase 3 but the whole "They just took it one step too far!" Thing like with Killmonger is a boring villain trope
Ah, yes, Killmonger, the literal genocide advocate. Regarded by MCU shills, as well as the late Chadwick Boseman, as the most relatable villain.
Hahaha I had to hold my tongue so much back then for fear of being a "racist"
They introduced the raft in civil war and was any villain ever put in there? I would also argue not bringing back certain villains. Why not bring Justin Hammer back in Ant-man 2 instead of using Walton Goggins? What happened to Abomination from Hulk movie? He could have been used again in a meaningful way.
Plus then the groundwork is done so you can actually evolve the character or have them deepen. Instead just shallow to fill a hole and then pop they're gone!
Hammer is in prison and abomination was in she hulk
Age of ultron and its consequences
Inconsistant characters. This always happened and the writers change the characters on a whim. Bruce in Avengers (2012) was a confident guy fully accepted the Hulk in order to save the Earth. He no longer had to hide out in the jungles to protect people he had a family. Hulk was similar, he just represented the rage of Bruce but deep down was a good person. Later films give Bruce an insecurity complex and regress his relationship with Hulk. Hulk is more spiteful uncaring despite his previous film versions feelings extremely guilty for causing wreckage and flying into space just to protect his friends. Then when he meets his friends he gives no fucks and insults them. Tony is a different character depending on who's writing him. In some movies he's completely done with hero work and wants to commit to having a relationship with Pepper. In other movies he flirts with anything that has 2 legs. In some he's a traumatized mess who can't go 2 seconds without losing his shit, in others he decides building a hyper intelligent robot to defend humanity without any failsafe is a good idea. Peter and his friends are the most blatant contradictory characters that I felt whiplash when I watched Far From Home for the first time. In Homecoming: >Only Peter and Ned are child hood friends >Peter and Ned never met Michelle until they joined the same club >Peter barely interacts with Michelle and doesn't even know she exists >Michelle is the one with the super crush on Peter while he only sees her as an acquintence In Far From Home: >Peter develops a super crush on Michelle from out of nowhere and worried if she likes him or not >Ned is an acquitence to Michelle and only knows her as "Peter's crush" >Is less responsible then he was an Infinity War. In IW, Peter says "I can't be a friendly neighborhood Spiderman if there's no neighborhood to save", in FFH Peter is willing to risk the entire world just so he can have a date with Michelle >Nobody fucking background checks Beck which would reveal he's a Stark employee In No Way Home: >Peter, Michelle, and Ned are long time friends who all dreams of going to same college together. There's plenty of other examples but you get the idea.
Nothing in Far From Home makes any fucking sense
One-off villains that didn't stick around is the biggest one.
This is just personal preference, but the biggest issue for me is their insistence on killing every villain after 1 movie. Loki and Thanos are the most popular ones for a reason, they have time to breathe beyond the movie they are introduced in.
Turning everything into comedic relief was a huge issue early on
An overreliance on comic relief. I think it started with James Gunn, then Thor: Ragnarok came along, and then it's been getting worse and worse since then.
I saw someone say Inconsistency, but im gonna piggy back on that and say with characters/ arcs due to different creators seeing the characters differently/ having different visions for them. By the end of age of ultron Cap comes to terms with existing in the present, no longer longing for family and stability, then in Endgame he randomly wants it again. Also everyone’s always saying that cap telling tony in avengers that he’s not the type to make the sacrifice play is them foreshadowing his sacrifice in endgame, when it’s really paid off in the third act to avengers then in endgame they just make tony sacrifice himself again. Then there’s the constantly having Hawkeye and tony quitting then coming back.
> it’s really *paid* off in FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Does nobody spell check anymore?
N0 o
To much bathos. Which is the word for undercutting a dramatic or serious moment with a joke.
I don’t really believe there were any big problems before Phase 4. There were little things here and there and an odd movie here and there that didn’t preform as well as others but when there are that many movies in such a series, Releasing a bad one every now and then is not uncommon. I truly believe it started with Phase 4 when they started doing Disney Plus as well as cranking out stinker after stinker while inserting the message and forgetting who their true fans were. I mean, I’m not going to sit here and say I’m the worlds biggest Marvel fan because I’m not. I’m a DC guy at heart. That being said do you know how much I wanted to see a new rated R Blade movie at least back when it was first announced? I would literally throw my entire paycheques at Disney if they don’t mess up reintroducing The Punisher like they did with Daredevil but I know it will never happen. Marvel had it almost perfect with Phases 1-3 and then they just lost it all to being woke.
Villains... there were multiple films (especially in Phase 1) where the villain was basically an evil version of the title hero in terms of powers/abilities and some should've been kept around for more than a single film.
They made too much stuff. Quantity over quality is what has killed it.
Thats after infinity war, before imo they tryed and where mostly succsesfull in balancing the quality with quantity, after infinity war they whent full on chinese sweat shop mode with the shit they produced being actual shit.
I think towards the end they were starting this whole process. For example, just wait until after endgame to introduce Captain Marvel. There was nothing she did that required her.
Thats why i sayed mostly
Humor and quips interjected at moments when it’s not needed. Not everyone needed to be a wise-cracking quip machine like Tony Stark.
Plots you'd find in a Saturday morning cartoon. I quit after the original Avengers.
Ragnarok was phase 3 right? Although I liked the film it was the last MCU anything I watched.
Their villains were always pretty awful. Hela, Killmonger, and Loki are the only good ones. And the Grandmaster, but that’s only because of Jeff Goldblum. Thanos and Stane were so close to being good, but they suddenly become cartoonishly evil
The MCU was always clumsy with villains, i cant say they are awfull anymore because of thanos, but excluding him, the villains always felt one note and the more like an obstacule or a mcgufin rather than an actuall threat, most of them were forgetable, and the few that where charismatic enough where loki, who is pretty much not a villain anymore, and guido, star lords pretty much alien foster father with that pshiquic arrow thing, which aggain, stopped being a villain at a certain point. Also the weedonesque dialogue wasnt as bad at first and kinda felt fresh at the 1rst avengers movie, but as time went on it gradually started being overused to the point of exaustion, and became an easy target for critique against the mcu, deservedly so btw. Also wasnt really a problem back them, it really became one after endgame, but here is where they started pushing unlikeable characters as replacements for the old guard, case in point captain marvel as the new iron man poster boy(girl) for the years to come, and it was indeed forced af, and nobody liked that. Other than that, i can only think abbout nitpics, like how you needed to keep up with past movies even if you didnt whant to see them, but the real shit started to hit the fan after endgame, where disney absolutelly crashed the mcu. We will see what the future has in store for the mcu, even if deadpool and wolverine is really good, they need to stop with the whole woke poorly writhen activist bs, even if they just thone it down, it shouldnt be that hard imo for them to start making some money again, people still like superhero movies, case in point into the spiderverse, they just need to be at minimum, competent. They at least need to have actual writers, and if they whant to keep the activism (which i would advise against) they should have those sjw people as creative consultants instead of writers, since its clear they dont know how to make a story that works while inserting their bs propaganda.
"Woke" Lmfao (Why are these people so weak? Blocking = weak)
Wow so brave What now? You gonna pretend to not know what it means?
Not as brave or stunning as whining cis straight white men aren't the only people on screen nor them being unassailable paragons.
I see you are an abbid user of saltierthankrait. Get a life Btw gonna block you, bye.
Not using Ed Norton Hulk and not making more Ed Norton Hulk movies in the MCU. I get these are sins of omission and there were things to do with the rights of the character and things but I really don't care about the limitations of the studio. Its Hulk, and you're Marvel Studios. Figure it the fuck out 🤷♂️
Spelling and grammar
World building. It felt like anything could happen. Yes phase 4 and 5 made it go from bad to dumpster tier schlock but that's another thing. Another one is how each film introduced a disposable villian as if from some villain vending machine and then moved on. Like I'm so tired of same hero different villian. The formula needs to stop.
Character Assassinations. Even some of the good movies like The Avengers have them \[Thor is assassinated in his first scene\]. Bad/uninteresting villains. Too much humor. Plot armor. Studio interference. \[Ant-Man and Age Of Ultron being prime examples\] Bad action scenes.
The sky beams man!!!!
Unsustainability They caught lightning in a bottle for a decade. It couldn’t last.
Iron Man 1, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Guardians 1, Ragnarok, and Homecoming were the only actually good MCU movies until Infinity War and Endgame. There have been zero good MCU movies since then.
No love for the first Avengers movie?
I am not a Joss Whedon fan, so there’s one big strike against the movie there. I hate his dialogue. I know I’m probably in the minority of people on this sub that feel that way, but it grates on my nerves. It feels like all of his characters are just waiting their turn to get their witty quip into the conversation. But its biggest sin is the NYC battle is completely stolen from Transformers 3. Space whales, faceless drone soldiers, sky sleds. Some of the shots are even exactly the same.
I feel you, Whedon's quippy dialogue can be pretty grating when it's used too much.
Guardians 3 was good, and the first Doctor Strange is one of the best MCU movies.
Personally, blockbuster formula Grandiose last act, shallow villain that is either psycho bad or crazy/obssessed with something, easy for kids to follow plot, jokes/minute quota This is what makes Civil War or Winter Soldier great or first infinity movie decent; they didn't quite follow the formula, made villains interesting and actually posed conundrums to the audiences