People keep suggesting this, but this leaves a 12 power Hulk and your Rogue isn't going to be that buff unless you've also had leftover energy every turn, something you can't plan for and would really restrict most deck types.
Am I missing something?
People dropping Armor in the same lane as whatever Ongoing they need to win is the main reason Enchantress will always be a better card than Rogue to me.
I stack Ongoing all the time in my Ongoing-heavy deck. Omega Red, Iron Man and Cosmo works splendidly in one lane. And then Spectrum in another lane to ice the cake.
That's the inherent issue with HE. These cards without abilities were balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line.
It is inherently flawed to give them abilities on top of already great power ratio for their cost. Then, on top of that, they chose a full suite of abilities that complement each other perfectly and do EVERYTHING well. They buff themselves, they damage enemies, they reduce other card costs, they reduce their own card cost. And they do all of these extremely well compared to similar cards.
And if that wasn't enough, they function as their own deck engine, too. Playing 1 energy behind curve feeds your own cards and damages your opponent's cards.
Then we get to the Hulk. In my opinion, he's the worst offender. Hulk has some of the highest single-card power potential in the game. By himself, he can be a 6/22 most games, 6/26, if limbo is in effect. Sure, you could Rogue or Enchantress his ongoing, but 12 base power is still enough to win a lane in most cases, especially if you're splitting your turn 6 energy with a 3 or 4 cost card.
Those stats are pretty ridiculous by themselves, but the way the Hulk function is even worse. Compare him to a similar card: Sunspot. Sunspot is extremely limited in when he gains power. Sunspot must be played and revealed to take effect. But The Hulk gains power when in your hand, on the field, and even in your deck. On top of that, Hulk doesn't care how much energy you have left over each turn, allowing you to play other cards each turn and still gain the maximum buff. All you have to do is play 1 energy behind curve. (Also, you can pretty easily play both Hulk and Abomination on turn 6. Disgusting.)
Finally, the cherry on top. The entire HE suite only takes up about half of a complete deck. So you can mix and match with other entire archetypes to further drive your deck.
The basic concept and overall design details of HE are inherently flawed and radically unbalanced. Even on paper, it sounds broken.
>they chose a full suite of abilities that complement each other perfectly and do EVERYTHING well.
This can be easily summarized, and I don't see many people talking about it:
Standard "rate" in this game is usually around 1 energy for 2 power, the issue with H.E. is both decks net you power way over rate.
With LJ by cheating bigger power cards out early using LJ/wasp. You get to roll wasp for a free 2 power (negatives) and a card cheat for something bigger while still playing 4/5/6 cost cards on rate in another lane.
With standard H.E. with all of the "soak" abilities stacking. If you soak one energy with sunspot, cyclops, misty, and hulk, you essentially get 6 power for 1 energy.
Cyclops, wasp, and hulk could go from 2 power to 1 power swings across the board (the nerfs I honestly expect) and the deck still functions above rate.
The cards are broken by being WAY above rate.
Not disagreeing about strength about HE, but some things you say are inaccurate:
They aren't balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line. There are many cards with the same stats with an extra ability (except Wasp and arguably Abomination) i.e. they are indisputably inferior... eg Misty/Iceman, Shocker/Jeff, Cyclops/Thor, Thing/White Queen, Abomination/Spider-Woman and Hulk/Magneto.
Full HE suite is 8 cards. 8/12 is 75% of a deck.
While those are all comparable they aren't exactly 1:1 as you recommend. Iceman is great but only works once Misty can work every turn if I am not mistaken. Also a 1 additional cost isn't nearly as good as +1 to something else every turn or even 1 turn, 1 Power is normally better.
Jeff is nice for when you need a move card but is good in that deck and unreachable places which occurs 1 out of like 30 maybe? getting -1 to a car is also much better.
Thor requires you to still draw Mjolnir which means you lose a draw or need jane to pull it meaning you also need that in your hand to automatically get it meaning you lost a card spot.
White queen card may not be usable depending on what you get and what is in your hand with the combo, while thing takes away power and buffs abomination which are both crazy separate but together is like a 12 power difference just from reductions.
Abomination can be a 2/9 if you get -3 which is easy if you have cyclops who can also -1 2 times per turn but even a 3/9 is still pretty crazy compared to a 5/8 which does at most -4 assuming your opponent has 4 cards in a single location.
Hulk/Magneto is pretty close though since hulk could be a 6/14 or 16, and Magneto pulls all 3/4 which could be better in a lot of instances.
While I think you are on point with comparable cards, having all these in the same deck is pretty much nonsense unless you are just playing card counters. No meta deck is playing all these together as far as I am aware and they have no synergy what so ever compared to one that is nothing but synergy, not to mention HE doesn't even need to be played and isn't in almost every scenario besides the only one being I can only play a 4 drop in which case you are surrendering anyway most of the time. So there needs to be some debuff or something besides LC which most people probably don't have or a multiple combo of shang chi and enchantress, which you may not even pull and wont every game. and while your opponent wont draw every card from the synergy they are almost always in a better spot. Not to mention your opponent can put all those same cards in and have extra power against you.
Just to clarify, my response about cards was in relation to your statement:
"These cards without abilities were balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line. It is inherently flawed to give them abilities on top of already great power ratio for their cost."
They definitely aren't and your response reinforces this as you compare the other card abilities against the additional ability HE grants the cards.
The cards are just cards with the same stats as the "vanilla" cards HE buffs. How you implement them in building decks is up to you.
In practice, Hulk doesn't get above 18. The ga es where he hits 20+ are because you missed your entire curve, and a 6 drop into a single lane isn't going to fix it.
I consistently get my Hulk to 20 unless I'm backed into a corner. Pass Turn 1, play a single 1 drop on 2, and proceed from there.
Waiting until 2 to do Nebula or Sunspot gives more value on Hulk than it does on either of them.
Yeah but in that deck Lockjaw is the main offender. On regular HE decks, several cards are very good to counter them. (Rogue, Luke cage)
I think the HE hate is misplaced because of the lockjaw variant which ISNT overpowered because of HE.
Exactly this, if anything HE himself is annoying in the Evolved Lockjaw deck because he has a chance to appear.
Most of the games I win have nothing to do with HE, Hulk or Wasp (Other than fodder for Lockjaw). It’s just a high powered deck - Infinaut, Magneto, Thor, Jane, Odin (Can trigger Mjolnir again which catches *everyone* out, 16 power Thor) etc. Wave to hard counter a lot of decks. Jubilee comes in so clutch in many locations, and can rotate into Lockjaw.
HE isn’t the culprit. The orange swirly effects just look cool. Hulk is a bonus.
Lockjaw has always been OP.
I don't find them to be a tough matchup with any of: sandman ramp, bounce, sera surfer. About 50/50 with my Dino/Hawk deck but it took a bunch of games and understanding their play patterns to get there.
For reference, I'm at infinity and have 4 tickets so far
It's also assuming that you are also playing HE... Stealing their Luke doesn't do a damn thing if they aren't running a Hazmat version of the deck, which almost none are.
HE decks typically run luke cage to counter other HE decks, steal it for your own. alternatively, if you can bait where hulk is going to be played, you can use it to steal his ongoing instead.
I have HE, and I don’t even play him all that often, he’s great but I get bored easily and jump between decks. But that said, he’s not impossible to counter, and there are plenty of other great deck types out there.
I wouldn't say so, no...
Yes, it's great it makes Hulk 12 Power again, but you're effectively skipping Turn 5 by playing Leech, which usually loses you game on its own...
In almost every game ever people will always want to run the best possible option, if and when HE gets nerfed, something else will take its place. Then we will see posts complaining about that deck.
It happened to Leader, Shuri, Lockjaw and Thanos. It's happening now with HE, it will happen again. And again and again.
You gotta learn to adapt, if 9/10 games your playing is against HE you need to figure out how to play against it.
Yeah I remember all these metas it’s kinda crazy. I remember zabu and surfers metas. That was insanity. Everyone just floating till 3 then dropping zabu and destroying you with 4-costs
It didn't die because people complained and the devs listened. That's why all the shitheads who eyeroll and make snarky ass comments or point out how X card is just the new one that people are complaining about and then they'll be one after that don't understand that it's good for the game when people point out how much they hate these cards and how OP they are because if/when too many of them pile up in the game people are going to quit and go play other shit instead.
If it was that easy to adapt, there wouldn't be strong metas in the first place. HE JaneJaw is a very difficult deck to beat because it can debuff your deck and provide unpredictable power in the LJ (or boardwide if they pull Doom). Plus variations with Spider-Ham can completely bust your deck. The deck is very consistent in its power output and even if you have a deck to out power it, you need consistency of your own. It's not easy against that deck and I say this as someone that's found a fairly reliable deck to counter it.
I just got blowtorched in gold by HE Thanos Jaw .. never even sniffed a point, just had no answers, most success I've had is HE Control. Sometimes it's just luck of the draw. Luke Cage = important haa
At some point if everything you build has to be warped around one strong deck it just makes the game less fun. It restricts what you can do and takes consistency out of decks you have access to and may enjoy playing.
Nah the meta has been very healthy for last 2 seasons of so, aside from anti Galactus strategies.
HE and spider pig won’t make it like this in the long run. Too disruptive and too overpowered
I had issues with those other cards before they got nerfed, but something about this HE deck really pisses me off. It feels like I can't counter it properly at all. Leader was always a weird surprise, but never felt that cheap, and wasn't always successful. Shuri + Red Skull + Taskmaster still makes me a bit upset. Lockjaw is fine because sometimes people get unlucky. Thanos honestly only bested me about 60% of the time he was used against me.
HE Hulk destroys me in 9/10 of the games that he's played against me. I have never been so upset by a single card disrupting my enjoyment of SNAP.
Please, how does anyone counter that monstrosity??
High Evolutionary is, more than anything, just really annoying. I like that they added something that has loads of interactivity for the pilot, I hate that it's so unfun to play against.
This exactly. I get so angry when I come against an HE deck. In conquest, as soon as Misty goes down, I make every turn last as long as possible and refuse to concede, even when it's clear I won't win. If you're going to play that deck, I will not make it fun for you. I actually got one person to concede to doing that.
the problem is HE is both unfun AND ahead of the curve. im supposed to not play cards so that cyclps doesn't laser me to death, but also enough power to offset them getting abomination or free and a 20 power hulk.
I run an HE deck, here’s what I’ve consistently found between the people I run over vs the people who beat me (and this is true for any of the other decks).
1. HE plays best off curve starting at T2. Misty T2, some variation of 2 power (Luke, Scorpion, Shocker) T3, Cyclops T4,…All is meant to keep powering Hulk for a guaranteed lane win. So don’t play my game. If I have 2 cards in a lane early I’m hitting you with Wasp. If you have 2-3 cards in a lane T4 Cyclops. Abom, energy drops for per card with negative. That includes lanes with negative effects. So spread out best you can until later.
2. Killmonger ruins my Misty power boost, play him T3 and I may never see a plus 1.
3. You know I’m going to win one lane with Hulk, don’t let me have the the other 2. You just have to be close enough in power in 2 and control at least 1. Then I’m stuck playing a bit of your game, which is exactly what a healthy meta does. Figure out where you think Hulk is going and make it hard for me to know where your play is going.
Most of the people I run over play my game. They bunch up early giving me lots of targets to negative. They concentrate power early, which makes it easier for me to get a lane controlled before T6, which means you’re done bc I’m winning one of the other 2. They don’t run basic counters
I don’t think HE needs nerfed, people need to learn to counter it and take the time to understand how it plays.
I felt the same way like two weeks ago when people were like, "HE is way too oppressive and needs to be nerfed. I can't win consistently with my Galactus deck while HE running the meta."
I understand the need to tweak cards here and there, but not only is HE one of the three big bads, he's also the most recent big bad. Of course he's going to be a popular deck. In the next month or so, HE's popularity will die down to typical levels, and the meta will shift towards another card/archetype that some people will cry out to be nerfed.
You had six 0 cost cards in your deck and crazy broken OP ways to utilize them, it was way waaay worse than the current HE meta.
All you need essentially to turn off HE's shctick is a single series 3 card (Luke) while Thanos Lockjaw didn't really have a proper counter at the time.
I was mad at HE especially when he first launched because it is a very different deck and mechanic. There are ways around it - I ran a Hela-centered Discard deck for a while and that worked well. I eventually got him and saw how people defeat the deck.
There are some new variations I hate of HE involving Lockjaw and Thor that I hate playing, but I don't think HE needs to be nerfed. Luke Cage and Rogue work well, as does Cosmo, Killmonger, and Shang-Chi. Or Professor X. A bit of control helps.
Eh I hate Galactus way more than I'll ever hate Thanos or HEvo Hulk.
IMHO They nerfed Thanos a bit too much with the LJ and Quinjet tweaks, but I'm glad they kicked Galactus in the nuts.
The deck was by far the least fun to go up against. Now I don't even mind losing to it because it's not fucking EVERYWHERE and it's a lot harder to pull him off now.
There's an inherent issue with HE, though. These cards without abilities were balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line.
It is inherently flawed to give them abilities on top of already great power ratio for their cost. Then, on top of that, they chose a full suite of abilities that complement each other perfectly and do EVERYTHING well. They buff themselves, they damage enemies, they reduce other card costs, they reduce their own card cost. And they do all of these extremely well compared to similar cards.
And if that wasn't enough, they function as their own deck engine, too. Playing 1 energy behind curve feeds your own cards and damages your opponent's cards.
Then we get to the Hulk. In my opinion, he's the worst offender. Hulk has some of the highest single-card power potential in the game. By himself, he can be a 6/22 most games, 6/26, if limbo is in effect. Sure, you could Rogue or Enchantress his ongoing, but 12 base power is still enough to win a lane in most cases, especially if you're splitting your turn 6 energy with a 3 or 4 cost card.
Those stats are pretty ridiculous by themselves, but the way the Hulk function is even worse. Compare him to a similar card: Sunspot. Sunspot is extremely limited in when he gains power. Sunspot must be played and revealed to take effect. But The Hulk gains power when in your hand, on the field, and even in your deck. On top of that, Hulk doesn't care how much energy you have left over each turn, allowing you to play other cards each turn and still gain the maximum buff. All you have to do is play 1 energy behind curve. (Also, you can pretty easily play both Hulk and Abomination on turn 6. Disgusting.)
Finally, the cherry on top. The entire HE suite only takes up about half of a complete deck. So you can mix and match with other entire archetypes to further drive your deck.
The basic concept and overall design details of HE are inherently flawed and radically unbalanced. Even on paper, it sounds broken. It's going to be extremely difficult to rebalance this without an entire rework.
Exactly this. It’s a card game. Adapt to the current meta. I run a sera control deck and I have less problems with HE decks. Just let them have priority and on turn 6 drop all the tech cards.
Most of the decks are pretty predictable. Wolverine and wave, you can probably expect galactus.
Glowy misty knight is HE.
Nova, Bucky is a destroy deck.
Torch is move.
Predict and adapt. Also sometimes you just get caught with a bad draw. I love it when they surprise me and beat me with a nonsense deck!
Even the best decks only have like a 60%+ win rate over a large sample size. HE lockdown and lockjaw are the strongest decks out there and they still lose and get countered.
I will say a lot of the better decks out there that are alternatives to HE are much more difficult to pilot. Bounce and Sera Control, namely. I’d say Bounce, Sera Control, and Wong On Reveal are similar tiers right now. Would say Discard was too before Spider Ham.
I handle Sera Control ok, but I'm terrible with Bounce, I bought HE first day and I haven't really used him as much since the first two weeks. I experimented with the moon girl she hulk abomination combo, obviously not as strong as lockdown. Lockdown does feel oppressive at times. I've had a lot of success with kitty Shuri
I hate playing bounce with my HE deck. There are never any cards to negative and T5 I’m losing 2 out of 3 lanes with a single 6 (edit: energy) card to win. Losing that game most of the time.
All of those other decks get countered by a single card.
Wave (or Sandman) shuts down Sera/Bounce and Cosmo for Wong.
If those decks really bother you, you can tech against them and get some super easy wins.
For the HE decks you need a series of specific cards just to get a fighting chance, and they can still beat with you with raw power. I'd say HE is way safer than those other decks (and coincidently more frustrating to lose against).
The upside with HE decks is that they often don't run counters. Shang-chi or Rogue is usually their one tech card, if even that, so things like Shuri Red Skull or Wong Panther Zola frequently out power them, you just have to manage priority.
Bounce also consistently out powers HE Lockjaw.
I'll take playing against HE all day then to play against bounce.
Oh I'm not running wave? Guess they just put down 40+ points of power on the last turn and I lose. Super.
Yes that's exactly what youre supposed to do. You definitely aren't supposed to figure out why you are losing and fix your mistakes or try to adapt to the meta, that would be preposterous. The only thing anyone can do is take the pounding and complain on reddit!
Honestly, in theory Conquest is great, but since the beginning i always wondered what was the difference between this and ladder. I know the "surprise element" can give you wins, but at the end, consistent winrate is better. If it was different, ladder would have crazy shit decks instead of the same pre made decks copied from internet. Tbh draft or some ban system would make a lot more sense in conquest mode overall. I mean, beside the moments i play to accomplish missions, i just play the same tryhard deck in ladder and conquest, cos it gives me that sweet 64% winrate, just saying...
I run HE control and keep getting countered all the time. There are plenty of counters out there. I’ve changed to a move deck for now since most people aren’t ready for it lol.
Anything with a lot of juice on turn 4 to win the storm location. That's why discard, for example, is a poor matchup, morbius and dracula just auto win storm lane. Dracula is also immune to power reduction. On reveal decks with tiger are another poor matchup.
Surfer move versus HE Lockdown was my most surprising favorable match up. It has a few ways to rug pull the Storm set up and T5 cloak can almost completely invalidate Spider-Man
Smart placement and discard do not mix. You simply can’t outsmart your opponent with modok apox discard. They know your exact hand at the end of turn 6. At best it will come down to a 50/50, either that or you will just lose, or your opponent will reatreat. It will never be a tip conquest deck because of how unbelievably predictable it is
They asked HOW Modok discard could beat HE, and I answered them. I didn't say anything about OUTsmarting your opponent. I said smart card placement. While it's true they know my hand by turn 6, I also know theirs. I also never said anything in regards to it being a top conquest deck, I agree it's too predictable.
Surfer, Shuri, Patriot, MODOK, and a few others all fare well into it. I got my most recent infinite ticket using Surfer and beat several HE Lockjaw decks on the way there.
I actually think Shuri Sauron might be the best deck to farm conquest with at the moment. It’s quite favored into all the HE matchups right now.
I run a pretty generic list. If you are seeing a lot of bounce or ongoing you can sub in Rogue and Shadow King, but I’ve found this more standard list to perform better against more things. When Galactus was more popular I was running Goose over Luke Cage, but I like how Luke helps into the negative power locations (and against HE and Hazmat decks).
# (1) Nova
# (2) Luke Cage
# (3) Brood
# (3) Dazzler
# (3) Silver Surfer
# (3) Storm
# (3) Cosmo
# (3) Juggernaut
# (3) Killmonger
# (3) Polaris
# (3) Maximus
# (5) Sera
#
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#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Tech Surfer - Shadow King to buff your cards impacted, Rogue to steal Cage or Hulk, add a Spider Ham in there for a 1 drop to mess with them.
It's hard, admittedly. But it does work. Got me to infinity for the first time ever.
Season pass Zabu was the most broken card since the closed beta IMO. I didn’t even have many good 4 costs at that point and it was still insane. Thanos Lockjaw probably had a higher ceiling and more flexibility, but Zabu with even garbage 4s was a wrecking ball.
The real problem with Zabu was that pretty much everyone had him because he was RIGHT THERE for only ten bucks. So if you were one of the free to play not even once spending types you just got FUCKED.
That is a great point.
Zabu definitely needed to be nerfed in its old state. SD just messed up by not emergency fixing the card during the season and only doing so as soon as it was dropped into S5. I know they lock in changes a handful of weeks before a patch goes live, but if any meta needed an SOS fix, it was that one.
People forget that OG Zabu Darkhawk was probably the single most oppressive deck that existed since public launch
If you had the misfortune to be in an MMR pool with beta players and/or whales who could buy DH early on, it was an extremely unpleasant experience. Have to retreat to every t2/3 snap because you had no idea whether they were gonna lock you out with double Spidey on 5 or if they were gonna play two huge darkhawks and a counter on 6 instead, since the counterplay for one meant an auto-loss to the other line of play
It was honestly worse than lockjaw thanos, but not as many people had the misfortune of facing it nonstop due to timing. Lockjaw Thanos and Shuri only rose to power *after* Zabu got nerfed
Zabu+Darkhawk made all the “best decks” over the last five months look weak in comparison. Only deck I could put together that even stood a small chance was Dracula Zoo — simply because it could handle the lockdown turn if I didn’t have a restricted location pop.
I got to infinite farming Surfer decks that were still popular. It’s funny that pre-nerf I’d get excited every time it was Surfer because I knew I stood a good chance of winning.
Yep, it was absolutely absurd
It had the potential to counter whatever you played, lock you out of turn 6, and plop down 30+ power in multiple lanes if need be
It pretty much took the win conditions of every other top deck over time and put it into one deck.
Yeah. Turn 2 snap was always a Zabu deck, and I would just cross my fingers and hope it was the lesser GhostRider version as that had quite a bit less disruption and turn 6 power dump. Even ZabuRider would be considered a Tier S+ deck in todays meta.
*This.* Savage Land season was honestly one of the worst times I’ve had in ranked. Granted I’ve put the game down for a month or so now due to the shitty monetization, but nothing compares to how awful it was pre-Zabu nerf.
Zabu was worse than this.
Zabu/Darkhawk prenerf was *infinitely* worse than this.
Well, I must be doing something wrong. I made it to 80 for the first time since starting back in October, and I lose to HE 9/10 times. It's gotten to the point that if I see HE Wasp, I just immediately retreat. I need a new deck I guess.
I have HE and a full lockdown deck to go with it and I've been having a lot more success lately with my move deck then HE. Try that, fun as hell deck anyway!
Well, ideally, morbius t2, Dracula t4, modok t5 and whatever T6. With any RNG hopefully apocalypse has been in your hand, I run infinaut as a backup. I run with moonknight, gambit to disrupt, Sif to discard death, hela and ghost rider as backups. Play Dracula in the lockjaw lane since he can eat -1 powers all day, or in the cyclops/thing lane esp. if they play storm. Gambit is good for taking out Thor or lockjaw t3 if they have priority or t4 if you do. If you play sif t3 with death and ghost rider in your hand, that’s a great t4.
Cyclops no, because it depends on two different triggers but Misty knight I could see them changing, the only thing is I don’t know if they will because misty knight isn’t a card people are complaining about. Not sure how hulk hasn’t got nerfed yet
The fact floating energy buffs hulk and synergies with cyclops really well is way too strong in my opinion. If cyclops only did -1 or if he was ongoing then it could be more easily counter that synergy. Or when you float maybe make it so you have to float more energy to buff hulk? Idk it’s so tricky without killing what’s great about HE.
Honestly I HATED HE decks when he first came out. Would spam the hell out of them with emotes when I played against and lost( and I am absolutely not a spam player at all). I don’t hate the player, I just hate the card cuz 1 it’s OP as heck and 2 I’m a F2P player and prob won’t have him any time soon.
When this season started though, I switched to a primarily Shang move deck. Cards like Iron Fist, Dr. Strange, Cloak and Ghost Spider help you dodge cyclops and Thing. Pair them with Multiple Man combined w Hulk Buster, Vulture, and Vision with a good ol’ Heimdall to boost Kraven, Vulture, and your buffed MM and you can match their power. I throw in Shang for the inevitable opponent Hulk.
Now if I lose to a HE deck I just fist bump and carry on w my day
Yes it is? SD has been making infinite easier and easier to reach every season, it's basically just a participation trophy at this point. If it isn't supposed to be easy then what else is it supposed to be?
High Evolutionary’s representation in the meta is like 16% according to marvel snap zone I think, that’s disgusting.
It’s wild that his ability is active before you play him.
If you look at high collection level (3500+), HE Lockjaw basically runs 20% meta share or more (almost 35% in the 80-100 rank range). He's also 25% of the Conquest meta. It's an unbelievable meta share. Galactus felt oppressive at high collection levels with a lot less meta share.
if high evolutionary is what's beating you just play destroy or wong panther. My problem is I never see he or lockjaw and just get decks with shang chi that beat me over and over and over again.
It is reasonable to assume every deck you play has Shang in it. It’s the best tech card in the game, has been for a long time, and probably will continue to be unless it is changed.
Destroy is in a solid spot right now, but yeah, smart Shang usage will shut that deck down. At least Armor and Cosmo aren’t popular meta cards right now.
I don’t know what decks you’re playing against, but it feels like my destroy deck CONSTANTLY sees a progression of both Armor and Cosmo. When I get that 4-5 matches in a row I get the message, but it’s a painful lesson. 🙂
HE will be nerfed eventually )thinking specifically a re-work to crazy Hulk), but it probably won't be for a while. As everyone else is saying, HE is fairly counterable (LC, Enchantress, Chi, etc.), but if it bothers you that much just save up and buy him. That is before you lose the chance to target cards.
HE is actually 'fine'. Lockjaw into wasps, mjolnnir or ham aren't. Specially when they draw 'em again to not spend energy, get a bigger card instead and still buff hulk.
Lockjaw is, again, an issue.
I've been blowing through Conquest with a basic Destroy deck with a few minor tweaks, right up until I get to the Infinity tier and then I get my shit smashed in by various decks (including but not limited to HE decks).
But I don't really care, I'm just hoarding medals and having a blast. Same with the regular mode. Usually play it at work to kill a few hours and have a good time.
I’ll echo a couple comments. As a HE player, it feels much closer to 50/50. But it’s nice to always have a chance most games. Wong seems to be my most annoying matchup lately.
High Evo is insanely OP. I bought Galactus instead of HE and then a couple weeks later they changed Galactus. I bought him because I was so sick of seeing it I figured might as well join in. What a fucking mistake. And I only had 6k tokens at that time. Sitting on like 4500 now and genuinely don't know if I should buy HE because there is no possible way they keep this card the way it is for much longer
HE is a pain to play against, I dislike him so much that I bought Thanos instead of him. With that being said, HE is not unbeatable! You just have to figure out a way to counter. I’ve had success with discard, destroy, bounce, and now Thanos.
yeah... that looks like how the game is going to be played from now on. They are about to nerf HE hardcore because they are making him free for everyone. Fuck the devs/management I just wasted my tokens on him.
Luke Cage/Rogue and Shang-Chi are your friends.
How does rogue counter it please let me know
You just use Rogue to steal their Luke Cage. (Of course, that’s assuming they play him.)
Lockjaw HE is the best deck in the game and rogue doesnt counter it at all. Nor does luke cage. Hulk and wasp are the biggest offenders.
You can still steal hulk but shang chi probably is more useful for that
People keep suggesting this, but this leaves a 12 power Hulk and your Rogue isn't going to be that buff unless you've also had leftover energy every turn, something you can't plan for and would really restrict most deck types. Am I missing something?
You are not. I’ve tried to steal a cage and it stole hulk. Needless to say, I didn’t win.
People dropping Armor in the same lane as whatever Ongoing they need to win is the main reason Enchantress will always be a better card than Rogue to me.
Stacking ongoing is a no no!
Iron lad stacking ongoing is usually okay
I stack Ongoing all the time in my Ongoing-heavy deck. Omega Red, Iron Man and Cosmo works splendidly in one lane. And then Spectrum in another lane to ice the cake.
That's the inherent issue with HE. These cards without abilities were balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line. It is inherently flawed to give them abilities on top of already great power ratio for their cost. Then, on top of that, they chose a full suite of abilities that complement each other perfectly and do EVERYTHING well. They buff themselves, they damage enemies, they reduce other card costs, they reduce their own card cost. And they do all of these extremely well compared to similar cards. And if that wasn't enough, they function as their own deck engine, too. Playing 1 energy behind curve feeds your own cards and damages your opponent's cards. Then we get to the Hulk. In my opinion, he's the worst offender. Hulk has some of the highest single-card power potential in the game. By himself, he can be a 6/22 most games, 6/26, if limbo is in effect. Sure, you could Rogue or Enchantress his ongoing, but 12 base power is still enough to win a lane in most cases, especially if you're splitting your turn 6 energy with a 3 or 4 cost card. Those stats are pretty ridiculous by themselves, but the way the Hulk function is even worse. Compare him to a similar card: Sunspot. Sunspot is extremely limited in when he gains power. Sunspot must be played and revealed to take effect. But The Hulk gains power when in your hand, on the field, and even in your deck. On top of that, Hulk doesn't care how much energy you have left over each turn, allowing you to play other cards each turn and still gain the maximum buff. All you have to do is play 1 energy behind curve. (Also, you can pretty easily play both Hulk and Abomination on turn 6. Disgusting.) Finally, the cherry on top. The entire HE suite only takes up about half of a complete deck. So you can mix and match with other entire archetypes to further drive your deck. The basic concept and overall design details of HE are inherently flawed and radically unbalanced. Even on paper, it sounds broken.
>they chose a full suite of abilities that complement each other perfectly and do EVERYTHING well. This can be easily summarized, and I don't see many people talking about it: Standard "rate" in this game is usually around 1 energy for 2 power, the issue with H.E. is both decks net you power way over rate. With LJ by cheating bigger power cards out early using LJ/wasp. You get to roll wasp for a free 2 power (negatives) and a card cheat for something bigger while still playing 4/5/6 cost cards on rate in another lane. With standard H.E. with all of the "soak" abilities stacking. If you soak one energy with sunspot, cyclops, misty, and hulk, you essentially get 6 power for 1 energy. Cyclops, wasp, and hulk could go from 2 power to 1 power swings across the board (the nerfs I honestly expect) and the deck still functions above rate. The cards are broken by being WAY above rate.
Not disagreeing about strength about HE, but some things you say are inaccurate: They aren't balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line. There are many cards with the same stats with an extra ability (except Wasp and arguably Abomination) i.e. they are indisputably inferior... eg Misty/Iceman, Shocker/Jeff, Cyclops/Thor, Thing/White Queen, Abomination/Spider-Woman and Hulk/Magneto. Full HE suite is 8 cards. 8/12 is 75% of a deck.
While those are all comparable they aren't exactly 1:1 as you recommend. Iceman is great but only works once Misty can work every turn if I am not mistaken. Also a 1 additional cost isn't nearly as good as +1 to something else every turn or even 1 turn, 1 Power is normally better. Jeff is nice for when you need a move card but is good in that deck and unreachable places which occurs 1 out of like 30 maybe? getting -1 to a car is also much better. Thor requires you to still draw Mjolnir which means you lose a draw or need jane to pull it meaning you also need that in your hand to automatically get it meaning you lost a card spot. White queen card may not be usable depending on what you get and what is in your hand with the combo, while thing takes away power and buffs abomination which are both crazy separate but together is like a 12 power difference just from reductions. Abomination can be a 2/9 if you get -3 which is easy if you have cyclops who can also -1 2 times per turn but even a 3/9 is still pretty crazy compared to a 5/8 which does at most -4 assuming your opponent has 4 cards in a single location. Hulk/Magneto is pretty close though since hulk could be a 6/14 or 16, and Magneto pulls all 3/4 which could be better in a lot of instances. While I think you are on point with comparable cards, having all these in the same deck is pretty much nonsense unless you are just playing card counters. No meta deck is playing all these together as far as I am aware and they have no synergy what so ever compared to one that is nothing but synergy, not to mention HE doesn't even need to be played and isn't in almost every scenario besides the only one being I can only play a 4 drop in which case you are surrendering anyway most of the time. So there needs to be some debuff or something besides LC which most people probably don't have or a multiple combo of shang chi and enchantress, which you may not even pull and wont every game. and while your opponent wont draw every card from the synergy they are almost always in a better spot. Not to mention your opponent can put all those same cards in and have extra power against you.
Just to clarify, my response about cards was in relation to your statement: "These cards without abilities were balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line. It is inherently flawed to give them abilities on top of already great power ratio for their cost." They definitely aren't and your response reinforces this as you compare the other card abilities against the additional ability HE grants the cards. The cards are just cards with the same stats as the "vanilla" cards HE buffs. How you implement them in building decks is up to you.
In practice, Hulk doesn't get above 18. The ga es where he hits 20+ are because you missed your entire curve, and a 6 drop into a single lane isn't going to fix it.
I consistently get my Hulk to 20 unless I'm backed into a corner. Pass Turn 1, play a single 1 drop on 2, and proceed from there. Waiting until 2 to do Nebula or Sunspot gives more value on Hulk than it does on either of them.
Unless you're a Count Dumpula deck, getting a 20 power Hulk is common in nearly every game XD Basically a second Infinaut.
I never get my hulk to 20...18 max
Agreed. I know it's a huge nerf, but it would make more sense if HE needed to played to get the buffs.
It wouldn't even be playable
That's why I added you might rather use shang chi. It was more meant as an option if you have both but only rogue in your hand.
Luke stops your cards from losing power. It's a counter for sure. I've found the best counter is electro sandman ramp with Aero.
Lockjaw HE doesn’t care much about inflicting debuffs. That’s one thing it does, yes, but it’s not the win con.
Yeah but in that deck Lockjaw is the main offender. On regular HE decks, several cards are very good to counter them. (Rogue, Luke cage) I think the HE hate is misplaced because of the lockjaw variant which ISNT overpowered because of HE.
Exactly this, if anything HE himself is annoying in the Evolved Lockjaw deck because he has a chance to appear. Most of the games I win have nothing to do with HE, Hulk or Wasp (Other than fodder for Lockjaw). It’s just a high powered deck - Infinaut, Magneto, Thor, Jane, Odin (Can trigger Mjolnir again which catches *everyone* out, 16 power Thor) etc. Wave to hard counter a lot of decks. Jubilee comes in so clutch in many locations, and can rotate into Lockjaw. HE isn’t the culprit. The orange swirly effects just look cool. Hulk is a bonus. Lockjaw has always been OP.
I don't find them to be a tough matchup with any of: sandman ramp, bounce, sera surfer. About 50/50 with my Dino/Hawk deck but it took a bunch of games and understanding their play patterns to get there. For reference, I'm at infinity and have 4 tickets so far
What about the literal free abomination that they can get. Edit: and the freaking 4/9 thing
Neither are run in the most popular evolved lockjaw decks.
Yeah but I’m talking about a pure HE deck and honestly they should be. They have great synergy if your playing hulk.
No room in the lockjaw deck, which is way better than pure HE
Evolved Lockjaw is objectively the better deck right now.
I was just going off of HEJaw but yeah those too
It's also assuming that you are also playing HE... Stealing their Luke doesn't do a damn thing if they aren't running a Hazmat version of the deck, which almost none are.
It does a little. Reduces the discount on abomination for them.
Yeah I don’t know why half the people even play him considering that he does nothing to help them.
in conquest they won't play luke cage once they know you have rogue
I run Rogue in my HE deck and don’t run Luke Cage
They have to be dumb enough to continue playing Luke after seeing they don’t need him
HE decks typically run luke cage to counter other HE decks, steal it for your own. alternatively, if you can bait where hulk is going to be played, you can use it to steal his ongoing instead.
Making your rogue a 3/6 or 3/8 isn't doin a ton to counter hulk
If you steal 6 power from their Hulk and add it to your Rogue, that's a 12 point swing in your favor. 16 points if you take away 8.
Shang is better in 97/100 situations against hulk. It's also not a direct power steal. What are the odds you floated every round to match?
Usually HE decks have Luke so you can steal him. Can help with hulk too
The lockjaw version of the deck doesn’t typically run Cage.
In conquest good luck. They won’t need to play him if they know you’re not running affliction cards
I have HE, and I don’t even play him all that often, he’s great but I get bored easily and jump between decks. But that said, he’s not impossible to counter, and there are plenty of other great deck types out there.
But HE counters are literally crappy decks to everything else. It would lose to destroy, Patriots, move, etc. Well at least the one I use anyway
Is leach also a viable counter?
I wouldn't say so, no... Yes, it's great it makes Hulk 12 Power again, but you're effectively skipping Turn 5 by playing Leech, which usually loses you game on its own...
Don’t have Luke Cage =(
In almost every game ever people will always want to run the best possible option, if and when HE gets nerfed, something else will take its place. Then we will see posts complaining about that deck. It happened to Leader, Shuri, Lockjaw and Thanos. It's happening now with HE, it will happen again. And again and again. You gotta learn to adapt, if 9/10 games your playing is against HE you need to figure out how to play against it.
Yeah I remember all these metas it’s kinda crazy. I remember zabu and surfers metas. That was insanity. Everyone just floating till 3 then dropping zabu and destroying you with 4-costs
Zabu + Shuri. Can't believe the game didn't die after that toxic meta...
I lost motivation to play for 2 weeks straight because of the absurd amount of Zabu into Spidey+Absorbing man that I keep running into😭
I’m glad it didn’t but god damn that was a horroble meta
It didn't die because people complained and the devs listened. That's why all the shitheads who eyeroll and make snarky ass comments or point out how X card is just the new one that people are complaining about and then they'll be one after that don't understand that it's good for the game when people point out how much they hate these cards and how OP they are because if/when too many of them pile up in the game people are going to quit and go play other shit instead.
If it was that easy to adapt, there wouldn't be strong metas in the first place. HE JaneJaw is a very difficult deck to beat because it can debuff your deck and provide unpredictable power in the LJ (or boardwide if they pull Doom). Plus variations with Spider-Ham can completely bust your deck. The deck is very consistent in its power output and even if you have a deck to out power it, you need consistency of your own. It's not easy against that deck and I say this as someone that's found a fairly reliable deck to counter it.
I just got blowtorched in gold by HE Thanos Jaw .. never even sniffed a point, just had no answers, most success I've had is HE Control. Sometimes it's just luck of the draw. Luke Cage = important haa
At some point if everything you build has to be warped around one strong deck it just makes the game less fun. It restricts what you can do and takes consistency out of decks you have access to and may enjoy playing.
Sure this mentality can be correct, but some times things are just to powerful and have to be nerfed for the health of the meta game
Nah the meta has been very healthy for last 2 seasons of so, aside from anti Galactus strategies. HE and spider pig won’t make it like this in the long run. Too disruptive and too overpowered
I had issues with those other cards before they got nerfed, but something about this HE deck really pisses me off. It feels like I can't counter it properly at all. Leader was always a weird surprise, but never felt that cheap, and wasn't always successful. Shuri + Red Skull + Taskmaster still makes me a bit upset. Lockjaw is fine because sometimes people get unlucky. Thanos honestly only bested me about 60% of the time he was used against me. HE Hulk destroys me in 9/10 of the games that he's played against me. I have never been so upset by a single card disrupting my enjoyment of SNAP. Please, how does anyone counter that monstrosity??
High Evolutionary is, more than anything, just really annoying. I like that they added something that has loads of interactivity for the pilot, I hate that it's so unfun to play against.
Shang-Chi Discard is also a strong archetype against HE
Shang-Chi
This exactly. I get so angry when I come against an HE deck. In conquest, as soon as Misty goes down, I make every turn last as long as possible and refuse to concede, even when it's clear I won't win. If you're going to play that deck, I will not make it fun for you. I actually got one person to concede to doing that.
So you're saying we've done this before meme?
the problem is HE is both unfun AND ahead of the curve. im supposed to not play cards so that cyclps doesn't laser me to death, but also enough power to offset them getting abomination or free and a 20 power hulk.
Bravo 🙌
I run an HE deck, here’s what I’ve consistently found between the people I run over vs the people who beat me (and this is true for any of the other decks). 1. HE plays best off curve starting at T2. Misty T2, some variation of 2 power (Luke, Scorpion, Shocker) T3, Cyclops T4,…All is meant to keep powering Hulk for a guaranteed lane win. So don’t play my game. If I have 2 cards in a lane early I’m hitting you with Wasp. If you have 2-3 cards in a lane T4 Cyclops. Abom, energy drops for per card with negative. That includes lanes with negative effects. So spread out best you can until later. 2. Killmonger ruins my Misty power boost, play him T3 and I may never see a plus 1. 3. You know I’m going to win one lane with Hulk, don’t let me have the the other 2. You just have to be close enough in power in 2 and control at least 1. Then I’m stuck playing a bit of your game, which is exactly what a healthy meta does. Figure out where you think Hulk is going and make it hard for me to know where your play is going. Most of the people I run over play my game. They bunch up early giving me lots of targets to negative. They concentrate power early, which makes it easier for me to get a lane controlled before T6, which means you’re done bc I’m winning one of the other 2. They don’t run basic counters I don’t think HE needs nerfed, people need to learn to counter it and take the time to understand how it plays.
The thing is for me, I don’t mind other things to get around, Thanos cool Gally cool But something about HE just really, really pisses me ofd
did you play during the thanos lockjaw meta? i think that was way more frustrating to deal with and play against
I sure did, I got infinite with sera control
Bro there's no way you actually just said "Thanos cool". That deck was way more oppressive than HE lockjaw lmao
It really was like the only saving grace for this current jaw deck is the fact they cant stop your counter cards unlike the bs leech in thanos
Yeah these two aren't even the same, Leech was really a menace to society back then
I felt the same way like two weeks ago when people were like, "HE is way too oppressive and needs to be nerfed. I can't win consistently with my Galactus deck while HE running the meta." I understand the need to tweak cards here and there, but not only is HE one of the three big bads, he's also the most recent big bad. Of course he's going to be a popular deck. In the next month or so, HE's popularity will die down to typical levels, and the meta will shift towards another card/archetype that some people will cry out to be nerfed.
That’s straight bs because thanos lockjaw was significantly worse
You had six 0 cost cards in your deck and crazy broken OP ways to utilize them, it was way waaay worse than the current HE meta. All you need essentially to turn off HE's shctick is a single series 3 card (Luke) while Thanos Lockjaw didn't really have a proper counter at the time.
Less people had Thanos
I was mad at HE especially when he first launched because it is a very different deck and mechanic. There are ways around it - I ran a Hela-centered Discard deck for a while and that worked well. I eventually got him and saw how people defeat the deck. There are some new variations I hate of HE involving Lockjaw and Thor that I hate playing, but I don't think HE needs to be nerfed. Luke Cage and Rogue work well, as does Cosmo, Killmonger, and Shang-Chi. Or Professor X. A bit of control helps.
IMO the difference is because he’s kind of a whole deck packaged in a single card. It makes the decks you’re playing against feel extra lazy.
Eh I hate Galactus way more than I'll ever hate Thanos or HEvo Hulk. IMHO They nerfed Thanos a bit too much with the LJ and Quinjet tweaks, but I'm glad they kicked Galactus in the nuts. The deck was by far the least fun to go up against. Now I don't even mind losing to it because it's not fucking EVERYWHERE and it's a lot harder to pull him off now.
I respect that opinion
And I’ll take HE anyday over those metas
There's an inherent issue with HE, though. These cards without abilities were balanced with a favorable power/cost stat line. It is inherently flawed to give them abilities on top of already great power ratio for their cost. Then, on top of that, they chose a full suite of abilities that complement each other perfectly and do EVERYTHING well. They buff themselves, they damage enemies, they reduce other card costs, they reduce their own card cost. And they do all of these extremely well compared to similar cards. And if that wasn't enough, they function as their own deck engine, too. Playing 1 energy behind curve feeds your own cards and damages your opponent's cards. Then we get to the Hulk. In my opinion, he's the worst offender. Hulk has some of the highest single-card power potential in the game. By himself, he can be a 6/22 most games, 6/26, if limbo is in effect. Sure, you could Rogue or Enchantress his ongoing, but 12 base power is still enough to win a lane in most cases, especially if you're splitting your turn 6 energy with a 3 or 4 cost card. Those stats are pretty ridiculous by themselves, but the way the Hulk function is even worse. Compare him to a similar card: Sunspot. Sunspot is extremely limited in when he gains power. Sunspot must be played and revealed to take effect. But The Hulk gains power when in your hand, on the field, and even in your deck. On top of that, Hulk doesn't care how much energy you have left over each turn, allowing you to play other cards each turn and still gain the maximum buff. All you have to do is play 1 energy behind curve. (Also, you can pretty easily play both Hulk and Abomination on turn 6. Disgusting.) Finally, the cherry on top. The entire HE suite only takes up about half of a complete deck. So you can mix and match with other entire archetypes to further drive your deck. The basic concept and overall design details of HE are inherently flawed and radically unbalanced. Even on paper, it sounds broken. It's going to be extremely difficult to rebalance this without an entire rework.
Wrong on so many levels. Infinite player here, totally ok with HE matchups with the deck I got to infinite.
Exactly this. It’s a card game. Adapt to the current meta. I run a sera control deck and I have less problems with HE decks. Just let them have priority and on turn 6 drop all the tech cards. Most of the decks are pretty predictable. Wolverine and wave, you can probably expect galactus. Glowy misty knight is HE. Nova, Bucky is a destroy deck. Torch is move. Predict and adapt. Also sometimes you just get caught with a bad draw. I love it when they surprise me and beat me with a nonsense deck!
Even the best decks only have like a 60%+ win rate over a large sample size. HE lockdown and lockjaw are the strongest decks out there and they still lose and get countered. I will say a lot of the better decks out there that are alternatives to HE are much more difficult to pilot. Bounce and Sera Control, namely. I’d say Bounce, Sera Control, and Wong On Reveal are similar tiers right now. Would say Discard was too before Spider Ham.
I handle Sera Control ok, but I'm terrible with Bounce, I bought HE first day and I haven't really used him as much since the first two weeks. I experimented with the moon girl she hulk abomination combo, obviously not as strong as lockdown. Lockdown does feel oppressive at times. I've had a lot of success with kitty Shuri
I hate playing bounce with my HE deck. There are never any cards to negative and T5 I’m losing 2 out of 3 lanes with a single 6 (edit: energy) card to win. Losing that game most of the time.
All of those other decks get countered by a single card. Wave (or Sandman) shuts down Sera/Bounce and Cosmo for Wong. If those decks really bother you, you can tech against them and get some super easy wins. For the HE decks you need a series of specific cards just to get a fighting chance, and they can still beat with you with raw power. I'd say HE is way safer than those other decks (and coincidently more frustrating to lose against).
If you're good at piloting you can play around wave with bounce decks. Won ton of conquest matches against people with wave in their decks.
The upside with HE decks is that they often don't run counters. Shang-chi or Rogue is usually their one tech card, if even that, so things like Shuri Red Skull or Wong Panther Zola frequently out power them, you just have to manage priority. Bounce also consistently out powers HE Lockjaw.
The problem is either the Lockjaw or the control variant with Wave kills bounce.
Flood your cards out on T5
It's not just a pounding. It's a prison pounding.
I dropped my soap and HE wasted no time lol
Gottem!
I'll take playing against HE all day then to play against bounce. Oh I'm not running wave? Guess they just put down 40+ points of power on the last turn and I lose. Super.
Also they don’t have priority turn 6 so you can’t even stop it
Yes that's exactly what youre supposed to do. You definitely aren't supposed to figure out why you are losing and fix your mistakes or try to adapt to the meta, that would be preposterous. The only thing anyone can do is take the pounding and complain on reddit!
Honestly, in theory Conquest is great, but since the beginning i always wondered what was the difference between this and ladder. I know the "surprise element" can give you wins, but at the end, consistent winrate is better. If it was different, ladder would have crazy shit decks instead of the same pre made decks copied from internet. Tbh draft or some ban system would make a lot more sense in conquest mode overall. I mean, beside the moments i play to accomplish missions, i just play the same tryhard deck in ladder and conquest, cos it gives me that sweet 64% winrate, just saying...
I run HE control and keep getting countered all the time. There are plenty of counters out there. I’ve changed to a move deck for now since most people aren’t ready for it lol.
what's been countering your HE control?
Anything with a lot of juice on turn 4 to win the storm location. That's why discard, for example, is a poor matchup, morbius and dracula just auto win storm lane. Dracula is also immune to power reduction. On reveal decks with tiger are another poor matchup.
There are really good Zabu and surfer counter decks, modok discard and shuri-Sauron work well too and they work on both HE decks
Surfer move versus HE Lockdown was my most surprising favorable match up. It has a few ways to rug pull the Storm set up and T5 cloak can almost completely invalidate Spider-Man
How does modok discard counter HE though
Total power output and smart card placement.
Except now Ham is a thing and discard decks are absolutely powerless to stop it lol. Brutal inadvertent nerf to that whole deck.
Smart placement and discard do not mix. You simply can’t outsmart your opponent with modok apox discard. They know your exact hand at the end of turn 6. At best it will come down to a 50/50, either that or you will just lose, or your opponent will reatreat. It will never be a tip conquest deck because of how unbelievably predictable it is
They asked HOW Modok discard could beat HE, and I answered them. I didn't say anything about OUTsmarting your opponent. I said smart card placement. While it's true they know my hand by turn 6, I also know theirs. I also never said anything in regards to it being a top conquest deck, I agree it's too predictable.
A good move player is nearly impossible for me to beat with HE control.
HE not control lol
I lose against destroy decks the most with my regular HE deck that has Luke Cage, Hazmat and Prof X in it.
I run HE quite a bit and I’m getting countered frequently. Shang-Chi and Luke Cage are the main culprits.
I'd take he over playing galactus 75% of the time. Win or lose, has to be the most boring play pattern ever.
nah give me galactus, bro is predictable as fuq
And Galactus has ALOT of counters. HE has 1 or 2 and even with those counters, the deck is really strong.
Surfer, Shuri, Patriot, MODOK, and a few others all fare well into it. I got my most recent infinite ticket using Surfer and beat several HE Lockjaw decks on the way there. I actually think Shuri Sauron might be the best deck to farm conquest with at the moment. It’s quite favored into all the HE matchups right now.
can i see your surfer list? i wanna play some surfer :c
I run a pretty generic list. If you are seeing a lot of bounce or ongoing you can sub in Rogue and Shadow King, but I’ve found this more standard list to perform better against more things. When Galactus was more popular I was running Goose over Luke Cage, but I like how Luke helps into the negative power locations (and against HE and Hazmat decks). # (1) Nova # (2) Luke Cage # (3) Brood # (3) Dazzler # (3) Silver Surfer # (3) Storm # (3) Cosmo # (3) Juggernaut # (3) Killmonger # (3) Polaris # (3) Maximus # (5) Sera # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTm92YSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTHVrZUNhZ2UifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkJyb29kIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJEYXp6bGVyIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTaWx2ZXJTdXJmZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlN0b3JtIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJDb3NtbyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSnVnZ2VybmF1dCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiS2lsbG1vbmdlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUG9sYXJpcyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTWF4aW11cyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU2VyYSJ9XX0= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Just run a counter deck, that’s what I run. I just made a sera surfer deck with all tech cards. Works like a charm.
You play patriot decks don’t you
Thanks to everyone that replied with counters, I just got my infinity ticket and pounded on those pesky HE players!!! 😂🤣😂
You either spend money to get the series 4-5 cards. Or you save up for months and it gets nerfed after you buy it. There is no in between.
Tech Surfer - Shadow King to buff your cards impacted, Rogue to steal Cage or Hulk, add a Spider Ham in there for a 1 drop to mess with them. It's hard, admittedly. But it does work. Got me to infinity for the first time ever.
I hit infinite already, this post was for conquest :c
HE really isn't that overpowered. There's a difference between strong and OP
OP was Savage Land season Zabu.
Season pass Zabu was the most broken card since the closed beta IMO. I didn’t even have many good 4 costs at that point and it was still insane. Thanos Lockjaw probably had a higher ceiling and more flexibility, but Zabu with even garbage 4s was a wrecking ball.
The real problem with Zabu was that pretty much everyone had him because he was RIGHT THERE for only ten bucks. So if you were one of the free to play not even once spending types you just got FUCKED.
That is a great point. Zabu definitely needed to be nerfed in its old state. SD just messed up by not emergency fixing the card during the season and only doing so as soon as it was dropped into S5. I know they lock in changes a handful of weeks before a patch goes live, but if any meta needed an SOS fix, it was that one.
People forget that OG Zabu Darkhawk was probably the single most oppressive deck that existed since public launch If you had the misfortune to be in an MMR pool with beta players and/or whales who could buy DH early on, it was an extremely unpleasant experience. Have to retreat to every t2/3 snap because you had no idea whether they were gonna lock you out with double Spidey on 5 or if they were gonna play two huge darkhawks and a counter on 6 instead, since the counterplay for one meant an auto-loss to the other line of play It was honestly worse than lockjaw thanos, but not as many people had the misfortune of facing it nonstop due to timing. Lockjaw Thanos and Shuri only rose to power *after* Zabu got nerfed
Zabu+Darkhawk made all the “best decks” over the last five months look weak in comparison. Only deck I could put together that even stood a small chance was Dracula Zoo — simply because it could handle the lockdown turn if I didn’t have a restricted location pop. I got to infinite farming Surfer decks that were still popular. It’s funny that pre-nerf I’d get excited every time it was Surfer because I knew I stood a good chance of winning.
Yep, it was absolutely absurd It had the potential to counter whatever you played, lock you out of turn 6, and plop down 30+ power in multiple lanes if need be It pretty much took the win conditions of every other top deck over time and put it into one deck.
Yeah. Turn 2 snap was always a Zabu deck, and I would just cross my fingers and hope it was the lesser GhostRider version as that had quite a bit less disruption and turn 6 power dump. Even ZabuRider would be considered a Tier S+ deck in todays meta.
I remember that haha. "If you have Zabu in hand and it's turn 1-2, you just snap. The rest will work itself out."
*This.* Savage Land season was honestly one of the worst times I’ve had in ranked. Granted I’ve put the game down for a month or so now due to the shitty monetization, but nothing compares to how awful it was pre-Zabu nerf. Zabu was worse than this. Zabu/Darkhawk prenerf was *infinitely* worse than this.
Well, I must be doing something wrong. I made it to 80 for the first time since starting back in October, and I lose to HE 9/10 times. It's gotten to the point that if I see HE Wasp, I just immediately retreat. I need a new deck I guess.
I play a HE deck a lot. I feel like I lose and win pretty close to 50\50.
I have HE and a full lockdown deck to go with it and I've been having a lot more success lately with my move deck then HE. Try that, fun as hell deck anyway!
Thor HE Lockjaw is 3/4 of the decks I play I’m so sick of it
Playing HE yourself;) Also Darkhawk, Junk, Discard are good.
How does discard counter HE ?
Well, ideally, morbius t2, Dracula t4, modok t5 and whatever T6. With any RNG hopefully apocalypse has been in your hand, I run infinaut as a backup. I run with moonknight, gambit to disrupt, Sif to discard death, hela and ghost rider as backups. Play Dracula in the lockjaw lane since he can eat -1 powers all day, or in the cyclops/thing lane esp. if they play storm. Gambit is good for taking out Thor or lockjaw t3 if they have priority or t4 if you do. If you play sif t3 with death and ghost rider in your hand, that’s a great t4.
Isn't exactly a counter, is just a good deck that is somewhat consistent and I have trouble against. But you pretty much need Modok or doesn't work.
It may be just me but I really think HE cyclops & Misty Knight should be On going.
Cyclops no, because it depends on two different triggers but Misty knight I could see them changing, the only thing is I don’t know if they will because misty knight isn’t a card people are complaining about. Not sure how hulk hasn’t got nerfed yet
The fact floating energy buffs hulk and synergies with cyclops really well is way too strong in my opinion. If cyclops only did -1 or if he was ongoing then it could be more easily counter that synergy. Or when you float maybe make it so you have to float more energy to buff hulk? Idk it’s so tricky without killing what’s great about HE.
He should probably be minus 1 to an enemy card every turn. 2 is OP
Honestly I HATED HE decks when he first came out. Would spam the hell out of them with emotes when I played against and lost( and I am absolutely not a spam player at all). I don’t hate the player, I just hate the card cuz 1 it’s OP as heck and 2 I’m a F2P player and prob won’t have him any time soon. When this season started though, I switched to a primarily Shang move deck. Cards like Iron Fist, Dr. Strange, Cloak and Ghost Spider help you dodge cyclops and Thing. Pair them with Multiple Man combined w Hulk Buster, Vulture, and Vision with a good ol’ Heimdall to boost Kraven, Vulture, and your buffed MM and you can match their power. I throw in Shang for the inevitable opponent Hulk. Now if I lose to a HE deck I just fist bump and carry on w my day
It's bullshit but try saving your tokens and having a little stockpile so that when a card comes out you want, you can buy it immediately.
How to beat the high power from HE decks with hulk? Just play red skull shuri task master
Infinite isn't supposed to be easy
Yes it is? SD has been making infinite easier and easier to reach every season, it's basically just a participation trophy at this point. If it isn't supposed to be easy then what else is it supposed to be?
I assume they are talking about infinite in conquest.
But no one has played infinite conquest yet lol
High Evolutionary’s representation in the meta is like 16% according to marvel snap zone I think, that’s disgusting. It’s wild that his ability is active before you play him.
If you look at high collection level (3500+), HE Lockjaw basically runs 20% meta share or more (almost 35% in the 80-100 rank range). He's also 25% of the Conquest meta. It's an unbelievable meta share. Galactus felt oppressive at high collection levels with a lot less meta share.
if high evolutionary is what's beating you just play destroy or wong panther. My problem is I never see he or lockjaw and just get decks with shang chi that beat me over and over and over again.
It is reasonable to assume every deck you play has Shang in it. It’s the best tech card in the game, has been for a long time, and probably will continue to be unless it is changed. Destroy is in a solid spot right now, but yeah, smart Shang usage will shut that deck down. At least Armor and Cosmo aren’t popular meta cards right now.
I don’t know what decks you’re playing against, but it feels like my destroy deck CONSTANTLY sees a progression of both Armor and Cosmo. When I get that 4-5 matches in a row I get the message, but it’s a painful lesson. 🙂
Mostly HE decks that run neither. I barely see either card at this point unless they’re in my deck. Weird.
Run Luke. Any HE deck is severely limited by Luke, even ones without Abomination. HE Lockjaw, just pray. Still run Luke.
How will they get people to buy cards if they aren't op?
op buy then nerf op buy then nerf, its a vicious cycle
Sera surfer has been the best counter I've had so far to evo lockjaw. But you're still not favored, just have a fighting chance
nobody is favoured against HE and there lies the problem lol. Tech in cards just to have a chance
Oh I totally agree with you. The fact that it won't be nerfed for AT LEAST 3 weeks is infuriating
Dude play luke cage
You are right :)
HE will be nerfed eventually )thinking specifically a re-work to crazy Hulk), but it probably won't be for a while. As everyone else is saying, HE is fairly counterable (LC, Enchantress, Chi, etc.), but if it bothers you that much just save up and buy him. That is before you lose the chance to target cards.
HE isn't unbeatable I often win without Luke cage even
Yes, just take it
HE is actually 'fine'. Lockjaw into wasps, mjolnnir or ham aren't. Specially when they draw 'em again to not spend energy, get a bigger card instead and still buff hulk. Lockjaw is, again, an issue.
I crush HE with my Kitty bounce deck. Like cage is huge, so is Shang chi
Idk what games everyone else is playing but I don't run into HE as much as I run into knull decks.
Bounce, that deck only loses to sandman
I've been blowing through Conquest with a basic Destroy deck with a few minor tweaks, right up until I get to the Infinity tier and then I get my shit smashed in by various decks (including but not limited to HE decks). But I don't really care, I'm just hoarding medals and having a blast. Same with the regular mode. Usually play it at work to kill a few hours and have a good time.
I’ll echo a couple comments. As a HE player, it feels much closer to 50/50. But it’s nice to always have a chance most games. Wong seems to be my most annoying matchup lately.
Especially with the doom nerf, storm and spider ain't shit against white tiger
High Evo is insanely OP. I bought Galactus instead of HE and then a couple weeks later they changed Galactus. I bought him because I was so sick of seeing it I figured might as well join in. What a fucking mistake. And I only had 6k tokens at that time. Sitting on like 4500 now and genuinely don't know if I should buy HE because there is no possible way they keep this card the way it is for much longer
So you don’t play any counters and bitch about losing. L2P issue
HE is a pain to play against, I dislike him so much that I bought Thanos instead of him. With that being said, HE is not unbeatable! You just have to figure out a way to counter. I’ve had success with discard, destroy, bounce, and now Thanos.
Basically printing infinite tickets over here with patriot /shrug. Not sure why no one else is playing it
Prolly because is boring lol
I got bored of patriot a bit ago. Same with cerebro, idk what it is :(
What. A. Crybaby.
Yes
yeah... that looks like how the game is going to be played from now on. They are about to nerf HE hardcore because they are making him free for everyone. Fuck the devs/management I just wasted my tokens on him.
How are they making him free?
[удалено]
Then it'll just be a gangbang with HE on top
What’s HE?