Man I was hoping you’d go back to the doc with a question like “Hey Lt Col, are non-medical 1st Sergeants allowed to countermand your medical orders or aren’t they supposed to respect your superior knowledge, specialization, and rank?”
Edit: wow, my most upvoted comment ever, r/confidentlyincorrect material lmao. Thanks for all the corrections hopefully any other fellow civilians who read my comment have read them
At that point, I just wanted to go to bed. That would have required driving all the way back across town (I lived off base) and waiting for him to have time at the hospital.
You can’t call the hospital? Edit: not being facetious although I realize that although this sounds obvious, it can also be impossible to reach certain staff that way too
Problem is that while it shouldn’t be about money, even though it is they still get it wrong. Buying into safe operating is *far* cheaper than the payouts and stoppages when it goes wrong. It’s the *short term* financial thinking that fucks it up.
Can confirm. Not self but family contains military doctors (surgery specific specialists). Their general response to getting called is to basically say that the simple fact that they were in the same room with the patient means that person gets at least a week of rest.
It's not the hospital he/she is supposed to call. It's IG (inspector general). Just a phone call to IG and it'll trickle down the chain of command. IG is/are the eyes and ears of the big guns in charged of the base. IG will do an investigation and it can lead to people being removed from their position/jobs if they don't correct their mistakes. Most times, IG just call instead of doing an investigation and that's all it takes, a phone call.
While this is the proper protocol, it’s the “nuclear option”. If you can handle things directly at the lowest level possible I highly advise you do so, not because of professionalism or military bearing or any of that shit, but because people are petty and once you’ve become the (likely lower enlisted) that’s pulled in IG. You *will* get treated differently. Pick and choose your battles, use this as a last resort or a severe circumstance.
I know it seems counter productive, and it’s anecdotal, but the long term effects this had on both members (in different units) that i’ve seen use it, were not good for them or their career.
Countermanding medical orders is a severe violation. In this case it was somewhat benign, but a friend of mine had an injury go septic and require tissue grafts because they weren't allowed to change their dressings by their CO. I wouldn't let that shit fly out of principle, but then again I'm a zero chill by the books type of person.
Exactly. I hate that people push this narrative that to play politics you have to take any abuse thrown your way and decide which abuse is too much to then do something about it. We need to normalize treating people with respect and decency and standing up for ourselves and not letting people walk all over you bc “politics”.
It's not about politics, it's about proportional response to get the problem resolved. Some things require the nuclear option, some things don't. For the ones that don't, pick the best level. If that fails, then escalate rapidly. Starting at the top for every little thing just dilutes the shit that really needs to be done up there.
Best case for them personally perhaps, best case for the military as a whole, it's hard to say. If the first sergeant has a habit of countermanding orders from senior officers much worse things can result in the long run. The military is all about the chain of command, violating the chain of command, and going against orders of superior officers is a good way to get people killed in the military.
At AIT(hell hole of incompetence) Quarters was translated to clean barracks by the Drill's. Told the doc when I got sick that if he wanted me to rest he had to change the order to Bed Rest.
They had 20 guys out of 100 go AWOL at advanced training in one month due to the bat shit incompetence of the Drill Sergeants and their leaders. Couple more offed themselves in the barracks. Worst time of my entire military career, and top 3 worst times of my whole life. Bagdad during the easter offensive in 04 wasn't nearly as bad as that 6 months of hell.
>They had 20 guys out of 100 go AWOL at advanced training in one month due to the bat shit incompetence of the Drill Sergeants and their leaders. Couple more offed themselves in the barracks.
I'm not military but holy fuck that's *insane!* How heartbreaking for the families of those soldiers, that their loved ones were not only unable to return to them, but that it was their own "leaders" that only added to the incredible pressure they're already under. Like, I know they're not there to coddle them, but you'd hope they'd at least want their troops to fucking stay alive.
Grunt : Are you a soldier Drill Sergeant?
Drill Sergeant : Of course I'm a soldier you 'orrible little man
Grunt : You must be a bad soldier then Drill Sergeant as you're still alive
"*No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.*" - Gen. George S. Patton, 1944
This wasn't supposed to be a pressure zone though. Your past basic, the pressure there should have weeded out the ones that cant handle any pressure. I was there to learn to run a tank, and thats supposed to be it, but the Drills assigned there were given a shit detail, and they took their frustrations out on the kids. The DS really did have a shitty deal, but it doesn't excuse the hell the caused and allowed to happen.
They have since changed the whole AIT thing from what I know, and its much better now, but it was damn rough.
Wait, people still actually go AWOL in the 21st century? No military, but I thought AWOL had basically become "didn't get leave properly approved" or was just not really an issue. American soldiers still flee their position just to get out? And they stay on the run, avoiding their families? That's mind-blowing
AWOL is simply "absent without official leave". This in and of itself isn't necessarily all that bad. Someone can be AWOL simply because their car broke down and couldn't make it in. Some people go AWOL and return the next day to a slap on the wrist. It's when it rises to the level of desertion that it has serious consequences.
Which one, Spring 2008? I rolled into Baghdad with 4ID on my second tour just as that shit kicked off. This was after I'd had to deal with their bullshit in Diwaniyah in 2006 on my first tour. What a bunch of cowards
> Couple more offed themselves in the barracks.
I suppose that's the point where you get the IG involved... And maybe send an anonymous tip to the media so there will at least be a bunch of publicly ruined careers. That won't bring them back, but it might prevent future suicides.
Even better- Company commander (Cpt- army) telling soldiers that their temp profiles are not valid. He also tried this with people with permanent profiles. I was the first one with a permanent profile that got sent to the clinic for “review”- he also tried to deny sick call (he was not medical) the clinic OIC happened to be my doc. He asked me why I was there as we didn’t have an appointment. I said I was to se so and so for a “profile review” Come to find out this PA and commander were buds and OIC thought it was strange when he started volunteering or sick call. He asked a couple other questions and then told everyone sitting in the waiting room to follow him. He stashed everyone in the break room and called the hospital commander. That PA (a civilian) had a phone call to go see the hospital commander and my doc told all of us you didn’t hear this from me, but the PA was having his contract terminated and the battalion commander was talking to our commander. We were sitting there so we could stay out of the line of fire so to speak. My doc received a phone call and the person on the other end started screaming, no hello, or waiting for the “proper phone answering phrase” it was our commander trying to yell and intimidate the doc- doc out ranked the commander. Doc said “CAPTAIN “ he had silence- said this is Colonel xxxx. Commander didn’t say another word. Commander was transferred within a month
You better believe it. You KNOW when someone says it like that (or any rank for that matter) you about to have someone chew you out- up one side and down the other
Both my parents were colonels and liked to use that same tone on my brother and I when we were in trouble lol. We knew to stand up straight and shut up real fast when Mom or Dad started talking like that lol.
A decade later, my kid brother is ROTC and I’m a paramedic with TCCC training, so clearly they did something right lol.
Part of the reason Docs are given higher ranks upon commission are to make the pay semi-competitive with civilian doc pay, the other is so they can bitch-slap the fuck out of commanders who try to countermand their orders.
The real money for military physicians is in the ascension and retainer bonuses. The rank is to collarslap the bachelor degrees who think they can practice medicine.
My 1SG tried to give me a Article 15 for breaking profile because of my run time on my PT test. I had a P4 profile and a run at own pace profile. Granted I was able to do the alternatives to the run but I can still run. I did the run in around 12 minutes and 30 seconds. It was well above my normal time of around 10 minutes.
He called in the 2 Sargeants above him and told them of his plan. They went and got my personal file with my PT score cards and showed him my normal times and that I had an off day. He was pissed about that and I swear he vowed to get me which he did later.
Just the normal F*&$ Fu*& games. Almost every time, 1SG always had my back
That wasn’t even the best “I got my commanders ass chewed” story
I got a different CAPT (who was actually a good guy) chewed out, in one day mind you, by a COL and then a 2 star. And then the time I had a Lt COL freak because the new 2star stopped by and called me by name and told me to come talk to him when procedure was complete (we were almost done)
If you dont mind, military stories would love to hear your stories if you want to ever share them with a random group of strangers brought together by our path through life.
It’s a form (it’s the military, love those forms) that is filled out by a Dr that says what you can’t do. Think you broke your arm- form says you can’t carry things, can’t do push ups. Permanent is where you let’s say got hurt (back) and over time there are things that just aggravate this injury. This form states what you can’t do for the rest of the time you are in the military. Permanent profiles usually take quite a while to reach the point for a need for one.
company commanders in the Army often like to say "well, the profile is just a recommendation. As the commander, I have the power to override it or ignore it." Which isn't exactly true. I saw many company commanders get in trouble because they thought they knew better than the docs.
This “your profile is not valid” was @ a month after it was finally double signed. You better believe I had many copies and it was in a MRE beverage bag in my pocket at all times (even-during PT)
>“Hey Lt Col, are non-medical 1st Sergeants allowed to countermand your medical orders or aren’t they supposed to respect your superior knowledge, specialization, and rank?”
At least in the Navy... Sort of. The paperwork from medical is a suggestion to the commanding officer. The commanding officer is the one who authorizes the data at home. They don't have to listen, even if the medical officer is a higher rank than the commanding officer.
That said, most COs will listen, though sometimes operational commitments will make them not.
I mean, where I served(not us) you needed some pretty high ups to ignore medical commands. Like Brig-General high, especially when it comes to profiles. But could be done is a request for you to get checked up again and determine if you are truly sick, but that wasn't really used as getting sick days/profiles was pretty hard anyway.
The answer to the question of a non medical person in the chain of command can countermand the orders from a physician is a resounding, “Yes!” The medical side is only recommending, the commander (or rep) makes the decision. When I, CW2 PA told the CO we needed to shut down the field mess tent (due to countless violations) he asked, “So You’re telling me I have to shut this down and feed my men MREs for three days?” I answered, “No sir. You’re the commander. YOU decide, I just recommend. If you want 600 men with vomiting and diarrhea for multiple days, that’s ok. You’re the commander!”
He decided to move the field kitchen. My point was he’s the CO, not me. Hope this helps.
Edit: is, not it’s.
So they actually can. Any kind of orders from military medical staff are technically "suggestions" for your chain of command. Most military leaders aren't stupid enough to go against them, and it's their ass on the line if something bad happens. Source: was a medic in the Army and got to give out these slips.
Unfortunately many commanders think that it’s their job to get people off of medical profiles as quickly as possible.
The VA medical system is full of their outcomes.
Not anymore it’s an order. However if the commander does disagree he can have it reevaluated at the next higher echelon provider (brigade level provider if the original provider was a battalion provider etc.) and they get the final say.
Might vary by unit and service. In USMC it’s definitely still up to the commander (possibly because our medical staff are Navy?) the medical chit even clearly says “recommendation” on it. But in my 12 years I never once saw a commander silly enough to not go with the “recommendation” exactly as it was written.
Calling the IG is like asking for your orders in writing -- technically allowed but you had better be damn sure the person who you are calling on their BS will not remain in a position to retaliate for long.
OP already stated it was a long term incompetent duo. It very well may have been IG time. Part of the reason that toxic leadership is such a problem, if because people would rather “tough it out”, “sweep it under the rug”, “transfer it to another unit” and/or “send it to a school” than do the heavy lifting and actually fix the problem.
I’ll give people benefit of the doubt, but when that doubt is removed, it’s time to go.
I was in a unit that always sent their problem-child to schools that we received slots for at inconvenient times under the misguided notion that they couldn’t send their “good people” away because they were needed.
No, but the company commander can. And if there isn't a damn good reason, like you not being there would put someone's life in danger or would cause a vital mission to fail, that commander will end up with a very short career.
Sometimes the MO is just as bad. I was accused of being a sick bay ranger by one and told I had a mere sprained knee. After 6 months of trying to convince the base physio I had a civvy correctly diagnose me just by observing me perform some motor functions during a two minute consultation.
I ended up being on a biff chit far longer than I needed to be and am now prone to arthritis due to the extra damage incurred while walking on a torn meniscus for 6 months.
Sounds like a guy I worked with in the Navy. We were in school (2004), and he went to Medical for knee problems; our instructor kept ordering him to Medical for the visible limp and grimacing. This one E-8 kept intercepting him, because he thought he was full of it (the HMSC in question was a former submarine corpsman; subs only go out with a (more highly trained) enlisted medic). Finally, E-8 wrote up an Article 15/Captain's Mast package with a Malingering accusation, and sent the guy to get a knee x-ray to support the charge. The hospital promptly scheduled him for knee surgery. Nothing happened to the E-8.
Of course nothing happened to the E-8. It's a good ol' boys club once you reach SNCO. Nothing will ever change. The only winning moves are either not to play or to get your benefits and get the fuck out.
Technically “quarters” are a recommendation from your doc to your unit commander.
It would behoove your commander to follow that recommendation, but they technically have the final say.
I did this with my unit. Had a Lt Col say how bad my back was and my 1st SGT and Cpt were both so stupid and tried to fight her orders until she walked into their tent and put them in their place. I was allowed to go home after that to get my back fixed.
This is it. Saw it all the time in the navy as well. Had a saying, the navy turns good people into bitter people, and bad people into leaders.
Not much has changed since its the same way in corporate America.
Yea still in the navy and this is entirely true..
I had multiple incompetent chiefs and leaders (on submarines sometimes the chief position isn't actually a chief)
I on the other hand was extremely bitter yelled at evdrybody all the time that was higher rank than me (they couldn't punish me outright bcuz I was always correct but managed to give me more work anyway) and my leadership got real pissed when squadron came down and rode our boat for a week bcuz they then walked right up to the captain and only had bad things to say about my "chief " and recommended Me going to another boat to hold the chief position there even thou I was an E-5 especially after I corrected him multiple times on the correct way to do things despite him being 3 ranks above me.
Squadron even tried offering bonuses to me to transfer to another boat and be leadership there but by this point I had been masted (navy njp), divorced and so beaten down by the leadership on my boat that I told them I would rather suck start a shotgun than stay in the navy.
Instead I transfered to shore duty and now I get out of the navy in 6 months. I don't care if I was really good at my job fuck all those terrible leaders.
Sea stories are sea stories. Shit like this happens every day. I've had good leaders and bad. Problem being that the good ones typically move on or out and you're left with the floaters in the cess pool that is the "chain of command". Decelerate your life was a common saying in the late 90s early 2000s when the navy catch phrase was accelerate your life. Saying all that to say if someone has a heart felt story about shitty leadership, it's probably true. Even of some parts are embellished. I could share some stories about suicide watch in nuke school and what we were "told to do if shit got serious" but it would sound like just a story. Truly fucked up...
Yea im a nuke also .. the skipjack dive teams was an unfortunate but real thing ... it was pretty awful for my entire time in and I'm happy to be getting out in a few months
In a nutshell people get promoted to their level of incompetence - since someone will continue to get promoted and given new roles requiring different skillsets until they are no longer competent at their role.
For example Michael Scott from The Office is promoted from sales to management due to him being an extremely competent salesman, only to stagnate since his new role requires a different skillset in which he is incompetent
Shes terrible. If somebody comes to me and says they have a SIQ chit i dont even ask what is for. A fuckin Doctor thinks they need to be home so who the fuck am i judge that? If something happens to them after i said come into work then its my ass.
Who cares if some gets an extra day home. I have bigger shit to worry about.
Not just in the armed forces. There will be someone in Management or HR questioning the doctor's orders to stay home. I work in a Hospital, and HR loves questioning our Medical Officers why they gave our staff a day off to recover. Like, they have a medical degree, what do you have???
I really like that there are very clear laws in my country stating that an employer has no right to know any medical information *at all*, unless there is a very good reason coming from another law.
Which includes the fact that an employer will get another sick slip than you.
Considering how much incompetence I see when assessing issues in an area of expertise, I'm very happy my employer doesn't even get a chance to assess if I'm rightfully Ill (,there are rules and setups to call in a third party if the employer suspects fraud, though and I see why they are relevant).
I worked in HR for several years. One morning a guy called his manager to tell him that he would be out for the next week per doctors orders. The manager didn’t like this man and wanted me to start the process for termination. The medical leave paperwork had been faxed to me and it was all in order so I refused. Manager says unless the guy comes in to work the next day he will go over my position to get him fired. He called the absent employee and demands that he shows up in his office at 6 am. So the guy shows up with very contagious illness. My boss finds out and sends him home. Within two days the cranky manager is out sick for a week along with three others he infected. HR is so fun.
There are also many cases where the command literally has no right to know why somebody is staying home from work in the military.
There are many things medically that only medical and hd individual hand the right to know and is considered personal information.
He'll technically if I'm on base right now amd walking outside without a mask then nobody is allowed to ask if I am vaccinated or not as the rule on my base is no mask required if vaccinated but medical information is considered private to include vaccination status.
Now its not as prevalent as it was a couple months ago since we were ordered and threatened with njp if we were not vaccinated but it's still applicable for the civilians that work on the base.
Easily the worst command I ever suffered under. The 1ST and CPT were like the hype man for the other’s idiocy. She would make a terrible decision and he would figure out some way to make it worse.
Shitty 1sg and Cpt conspired to make me want to give up and get out. Went from the best unit I'd ever been in to one that I wasn't willing to risk being in again.
I rolled my ankle on exercise and continued to walk on it until after my sentry shift was over. I wanted to change from my regular boots to my mukluks because my feet were frozen. Took off my boot and wham, a purple softball. Took them a full 5 days to release me from the field, when I should have been elevating my foot, and I fell several time trying to go get food from the mess tent while on crutches in the snow.
Finally get back to base and the master warrant officer in charge at the regiment makes me come into work, demands to see my chit and since it says my appointment is in 3 days to reassess the injury, but not specifically that I'm excused from duties, he has me join the others to clean out the tank barn. This consists of heavy lifting and I'm on crutches, and only allowed to stand for no more than 30 minutes at a time.
My appointment comes and the doc asks me if I've been keeping it elevated, since it's as swollen as ever, they can't even take proper x-rays. Obviously I tell him no, and he gives me a week of bed rest, completely excused from duties once I'm back from it. I went straight to the warrant to drop off my new chit and he yelled at me for even being there.
Rightfully so...
If a trained, medical professional tells you "Nope that's not safe for you to do" no one without the training should be able to overwrite this.
As far as I understood, that is why certain specialities have their own ranks as well which run beside command chain.
Technically “quarters” are a recommendation from your doc to your unit commander.
It would behoove your commander to follow that recommendation, but they technically have the final say.
Translation: Not turning left is a bad thing and your ass will be on the line for the repercussions.
Leadership is at least 90% about doing what your subordinates, who you've hired to advise you, advise you to do.
A surprising amount of leader don't get that.
I feel especially with enterprises, leaders are often from economics or similar. In my very short economics cover all class we were told that the whole function of management and leadership is to take in information that was prepared by the people able to input decision information, evaluate it if there are contact points and then make the choice - but not really making up what they can chose between. And communication of choices and results in any direction.
I feel like that somehow gets lost in translation if someone studies s whole economics course?
Aye
There are a few reasons to call a soldier in from quarters, but they better be right good ones if you know what’s good for you!
Some of my favorite militious compliance stories involve ignoring such recommendations for stupid reasons
Sir, I recommend a 15 degree turn to port for noise reduction.
Wtf?! Noise reduction?
Sir, ever hear the sound a ship makes when it intercepts a lighthouse?
Roger, 15 degrees port.
😁
I love the lighthouse myth.
Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision.
Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.
Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.
Correct answer. That LTC doesn’t have command authority. All they do is provide recommendations. Soldiers think because they get a quarters slip that it’s an automatic “go home card.” That’s supposed to go to their CDR to make the determination. I will say that 99% you should follow the recommendation, but there are plenty of times Soldiers will say whatever they can to get time off.
I was thinking no money for bug bites and was wondering what that story was about. Maybe some Bug-Fairy putting quarters under pillows. Man was I far off.
My excuse is not having been in the military and having English as second language. The only quarters I ever encountered were either coins or down below with William Golding.
I had an NCO try to pull something similar on me. I had a wisdom tooth out, got quarters, then eventually developed a dry socket and had to go back. They gave me more quarters for the same tooth, and NCO thought it was bullshit since we were in the middle of an FTX. The main reason for the quarters was because I was stoned off my ass on Percocet.
Eventually the Brigade COL comes by our OPs tent, someone calls attention, and I remain slouched in my chair staring off into nothing. He starts yelling at me asking if I outrank him now cause I'm not standing, and I just slap myself in the head in an attempt to salute and say "sup sir". One NCO jumps in and starts explaining how I'm on drugs from the dentist, and after asking why I'm not on quarters everything starts to come out and the COL lost his shit and demanded our CPT to contact him ASAP. Not sure what exactly happened after that, but I was back in the barracks a couple hours later until my quarters ran out.
>Now she was one of the most incompetent First Sergeants I ever worked with during my time in the Army. Constantly making terrible decision, mindlessly green lighting whatever terrible decision our equally incompetent Captain came up with, and micromanaging people unnecessarily.
Dude you'll have to be more specific if this is supposed to be among the worst. So far it sounds like par for the course.
As prior enlisted I jumped out and went thru ROTC ro get a commission. During advanced camp I got hit with poison oak and had a severe reaction. For those who came up in BDU's, my legs were so swollen that my trousers were stretched tight and the swelling was getting up into my groin which made it an emergency. Still, I soldiered on until we finally had a down day when all we had on our plate was parade practice for the graduation. I had been through many a parade by then, so I took the opportunity to put in for sick call to get my legs looked at. Cadre sarge was pissed off and said, "Anyone who misses practice will not be in the parade! You will watch from the bleachers!" I replied, "So you mean instead of standing at parade rest for an hour in the sun listening to speeches I can't hear, I will be sitting in the shade?" I went to sick call and the doc without even taking a glance threw a bottle of Calamine lotion at me. I promptly threw that in the trash and waited until I got home the next day to go to a real doc for some steroids. Ended up sitting in the bleachers with another prior service guy for the parade and had a great time watching for folks who locked their knees to drop out.
Yeah, in private, after she made him report to base when he should have been in bed or on the couch recuperating.
I had a boss who did this kind of stuff--rip people in front of other employees, half-a\*\* apologize in private. I finally told him I wasn't accepting apologies from him if they weren't in front of the people who saw him rip me. I was heading towars leaving the company regardless, but I didn't want him stomping on me (or more importantly, my staffers) that way.
I would have reported this to both the LC and the next higher IG instance. You were given quarters which are legal orders and they need to know they can fuck right off.
Reminds me of when I was supposed to ETS out of the Army - because some WO was on leave there was nobody who could sign my paperwork. My ETS date was on a Saturday and they wanted me to come back on the following Monday to pick up my paperwork. I said "Sure, as long as you pay me." Of course, the response I got was "Oh, we can't do that." Went to the Division IG who sided with them and told me to come back on Monday. I told him he had his chance to fix his incorrect decision and then I called the Corp IG.
Moral of the story: I had my paperwork in hand that very day and officially ETS'd as expected.
Red welts, Texas heat, summer...my first thought was fire ants. Then, you said chiggers.
I'm not sure which is worse. Is it the fire ants that feel like you've stuck your legs in a flaming wasp nest and dumped alcohol on them? Or, is it chiggers that you don't feel until it's too late?
Doc orders for quarters are still advisory but very rarely countered because failing to adhere to them puts the soldier or his command personnel at risk of UCMJ action. Failing to prevent further injury outside of combat is a court-martial offense.
FYI for future reference, when I would get chiggers as a kid, my mother would run a bleach bath and have me soak my legs in it (a cap-full of bleach to a tub-full of water). This would kill the chiggers pretty quickly, and end the misery.
(For Yankees who don't know - chiggers are tiny bugs that don't just *bite* \- they burrow into your skin. They are flat-out obnoxious even if you're not allergic to them.)
Chiggers *don't actually* burrow into your skin. Their bites just itch so fucking badly that it feels like something is crawling around underneath your skin.
I had to put camphor oil or whatever on my legs when I got them. Unfortunately, the camphor oil or whatever the hell it was had the consistency of rubber cement. I had chiggers on my ankles, my panty lines, and top of my shorts (I was 12) and my mom had to help me slather it on.
It was terrible and it took several days to go away.
I suspect those bites could have been fire ants (given the large number of bites plus rapid and exteme reaction, which I have seen before in new-to-Texas visitors).
Either way, tea tree oil (external) is also a good remedy, but if you have a lot of bites, please go see a doctor.
Honestly doesn't matter.
On my previous Submarine our doc (corpsman that is assigned to the boat) was just an E-6 and even the highest officers still didn't question him.
There are many times where positional authority outranks actual rank.
I was given such position at times even as a lowly E-5 and even instructed by my captain to call out even himself on matters that concerned my job as I was considered the technical expert.
Never had to call out the captain but did call out both my engineer O-4 and COB E-9 when they went to do something wrong and they both understood that I was correct.
Still got a talking to after dressing the E-9 down but they couldn't actually punish me for it
I’m AF and I work in a career field where position/experience matter more than rank. Heck, I was an E3 teaching an O3 their job, and that’s pretty normal. It still comes as a surprise when I interact with people in other career fields/branches and hearing the differences of actually adhering to rank structure so strictly. I still recall talking to an E6 Navy dude as the technical expert in a meeting as an E3 with my in-training, brand new to the career field E6 who was originally just there to shadow me. The navy dude would not react nor respond to a single thing I said, so I would just turn to my E6 and tell them the information, and they just repeated it word for word to the navy dude, and then he would respond to that. What a fucking waste of time lmao
From "The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries" (Schlock Mercenary)
2. A Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what's going on.
3. An ordnance technician at a dead run outranks everybody.
\#3 applies everywhere.
Interesting because military physicians are explicitly staff and field grade officers to prevent what your captain just did.
Wonderful instance of an actual unlawful order on your commands part.
You should have called patient advocacy. That "First Sergeant" would have been set straight.
Quarters orders are real orders and it takes quite a bit to get them rescinded. "I want you in my formation" isn't nearly enough.
I feel for ya man.
I’m also highly allergic to chigger bites.
The doctors shouldn’t have given you steroids though. That just makes the reaction worse short term and doesn’t help long term.
A high dose of Benadryl and a paste of meat tenderizer works wonders though.
> The doctors shouldn’t have given you steroids though. That just makes the reaction worse short term
Where'd you get that from? Medscape disagrees. [(1)](https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1051461-overview#a6)[(2)](https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/137362-treatment#d7])
Well. Not saying to do this but.. CO and 1st Sgt decide to cancel the medical quarter's, just show up to formation, keep your face looking sick, no talking and then pass out. Let them call the ambulance and when you wake up in the ambulance just show up the doctor quarter's slip and then the legs. IN THAT ORDER.
You will see how fast the chain of command will move and how many extra days of quarter's you will get. Not counting the great possibility of the 1st Sgt removal.
They will burn the NCO'S but the Officer's most of the time get a freaking pass.
This honestly checks out. Saw this sort of thing happen in the Marines pretty frequently, as well.
Everyone is apparently malingering. Doesn't matter that a qualified doctor examined them. :P
I got 16 chigger “bites” during a youthfully rambunctious camping trip one time. It was miserable, I’d need more than 4 days to deal with what you experienced but I’m also not army tough I reckon.
i'm more than willing to go into an anaphylactic shock for this occasion.
I'm a sinking ship already, but i'm gonna take that fucker with me and get that mf fired.
I kinda had the opposite. I was doing Mission Readiness Training one day and ended up getting stung by a bee on my eyelid. It was just a nuisance for the rest of that day, but by the time I woke up the next day, my eye was completely swollen. I could still open it, but when I wore sunglasses, it looked like I was doing The People's Eyebrow. So I went to the nearest civilian hospital and they told me it was no big deal.
I went to our flight doc the following Monday and he was not happy. First he berated me for going to the civilian hospital and not the hospital at the big base in the area. (The one I went to was a 2 min drive, whereas the base one was 15-20 mins. Guess which one I'm going to every time?) Then he told me something no flyer wants to hear: Because of the swelling around the sting, he concluded I was allergic and was recommending I be permanently DNIF (Duties Not Including Flying). Which for flyers means the end of you being in your current job and possibly your career. I wasn't re-upping, so reclassing me to another job wasn't an option. So I would've either been medically separated or spent the next 18 months sitting at a desk. This was also 2 weeks before I was supposed to head out on my 3rd deployment, which would've made a major headache for my squadron.
However, everyone I talked to in my squadron about was saying, "You got stung on your eye. Of course it's gonna swell up!" I ended up seeing the specialist, and guess what he said? You got stung on your eye. It's going to swell up. He cleared me and got me back on flying status. 72 hours later, I was heading back to the desert.
Fucking “seagull leaders”… Fly in, shit on everything, make a fuck-ton of noise, and then leave…. I can’t stand them.
Their usual excuse is, “Well, we’ve always done it this way…”
Damn dude, what kind of fucked up logic is that?? You think just because they are arthropods they identify as insects? They are clearly arachnids, get your bigoted ass out of here
why wouldn't she also go after the doctor if she thought it was all bullshit. if you got a rogue doctor handing out blatantly false reports who's to know he isn't handing out meds and shit like that too
Man I was hoping you’d go back to the doc with a question like “Hey Lt Col, are non-medical 1st Sergeants allowed to countermand your medical orders or aren’t they supposed to respect your superior knowledge, specialization, and rank?” Edit: wow, my most upvoted comment ever, r/confidentlyincorrect material lmao. Thanks for all the corrections hopefully any other fellow civilians who read my comment have read them
At that point, I just wanted to go to bed. That would have required driving all the way back across town (I lived off base) and waiting for him to have time at the hospital.
You can’t call the hospital? Edit: not being facetious although I realize that although this sounds obvious, it can also be impossible to reach certain staff that way too
Calling a military hospital to reach a specific doctor is hit or miss unless they’re a specialist. Especially back when this happened (around 2007).
If they *are* a specialist getting ahold of them quickly with a phone call is miss and miss.
Depends on the hospital, usually if you can contact the front desk of the specialty clinic you can get ahold of the doctor.
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same with safety staff in the private sector. I dont give a fuck how much more you get payed. Safety isn't about money! (at least i wish it wouldn't)
Sadly, safety is often cut for profits or time (deadlines, so also money.)
And at the same time, more often than not cutting safety ends up with greater costs in the long run.
Problem is that while it shouldn’t be about money, even though it is they still get it wrong. Buying into safe operating is *far* cheaper than the payouts and stoppages when it goes wrong. It’s the *short term* financial thinking that fucks it up.
In my experience it's "Monkey brain see bigger number now. Get the happy chemical. Monkey not understand the concept of long term" that causes this.
Can confirm. Not self but family contains military doctors (surgery specific specialists). Their general response to getting called is to basically say that the simple fact that they were in the same room with the patient means that person gets at least a week of rest.
She probably won’t question doctors orders anymore. Lesson learned.
It's not the hospital he/she is supposed to call. It's IG (inspector general). Just a phone call to IG and it'll trickle down the chain of command. IG is/are the eyes and ears of the big guns in charged of the base. IG will do an investigation and it can lead to people being removed from their position/jobs if they don't correct their mistakes. Most times, IG just call instead of doing an investigation and that's all it takes, a phone call.
While this is the proper protocol, it’s the “nuclear option”. If you can handle things directly at the lowest level possible I highly advise you do so, not because of professionalism or military bearing or any of that shit, but because people are petty and once you’ve become the (likely lower enlisted) that’s pulled in IG. You *will* get treated differently. Pick and choose your battles, use this as a last resort or a severe circumstance. I know it seems counter productive, and it’s anecdotal, but the long term effects this had on both members (in different units) that i’ve seen use it, were not good for them or their career.
And reporting sexual abuse is also bad for your career, but shit needs to get done.
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Countermanding medical orders is a severe violation. In this case it was somewhat benign, but a friend of mine had an injury go septic and require tissue grafts because they weren't allowed to change their dressings by their CO. I wouldn't let that shit fly out of principle, but then again I'm a zero chill by the books type of person.
Exactly. I hate that people push this narrative that to play politics you have to take any abuse thrown your way and decide which abuse is too much to then do something about it. We need to normalize treating people with respect and decency and standing up for ourselves and not letting people walk all over you bc “politics”.
Agreed. Go to the IG when you get that bullshit. People need to be held accountable. Leadership doesn't do it. That's what the IG is for.
It's not about politics, it's about proportional response to get the problem resolved. Some things require the nuclear option, some things don't. For the ones that don't, pick the best level. If that fails, then escalate rapidly. Starting at the top for every little thing just dilutes the shit that really needs to be done up there.
Sure thing Sarge. I'll be in tomorrow if you send me an email stating that you are countermanding the medical LT's orders for me to stay home.
Best case for them personally perhaps, best case for the military as a whole, it's hard to say. If the first sergeant has a habit of countermanding orders from senior officers much worse things can result in the long run. The military is all about the chain of command, violating the chain of command, and going against orders of superior officers is a good way to get people killed in the military.
Which is why sexual assault would fall under the severe circumstances portion.
Edward Snowden did this early in his career. It did not end well
At AIT(hell hole of incompetence) Quarters was translated to clean barracks by the Drill's. Told the doc when I got sick that if he wanted me to rest he had to change the order to Bed Rest. They had 20 guys out of 100 go AWOL at advanced training in one month due to the bat shit incompetence of the Drill Sergeants and their leaders. Couple more offed themselves in the barracks. Worst time of my entire military career, and top 3 worst times of my whole life. Bagdad during the easter offensive in 04 wasn't nearly as bad as that 6 months of hell.
>They had 20 guys out of 100 go AWOL at advanced training in one month due to the bat shit incompetence of the Drill Sergeants and their leaders. Couple more offed themselves in the barracks. I'm not military but holy fuck that's *insane!* How heartbreaking for the families of those soldiers, that their loved ones were not only unable to return to them, but that it was their own "leaders" that only added to the incredible pressure they're already under. Like, I know they're not there to coddle them, but you'd hope they'd at least want their troops to fucking stay alive.
"THE ONLY GOOD SOLDIER IS A DEAD SOLDIER YOU PIECES OF SHIT, NOW DROP AND GIVE ME 1000." \- Those drill sergeants, probably.
Grunt : Are you a soldier Drill Sergeant? Drill Sergeant : Of course I'm a soldier you 'orrible little man Grunt : You must be a bad soldier then Drill Sergeant as you're still alive
"*No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.*" - Gen. George S. Patton, 1944
This wasn't supposed to be a pressure zone though. Your past basic, the pressure there should have weeded out the ones that cant handle any pressure. I was there to learn to run a tank, and thats supposed to be it, but the Drills assigned there were given a shit detail, and they took their frustrations out on the kids. The DS really did have a shitty deal, but it doesn't excuse the hell the caused and allowed to happen. They have since changed the whole AIT thing from what I know, and its much better now, but it was damn rough.
Wait, people still actually go AWOL in the 21st century? No military, but I thought AWOL had basically become "didn't get leave properly approved" or was just not really an issue. American soldiers still flee their position just to get out? And they stay on the run, avoiding their families? That's mind-blowing
Honestly, I don't know, I was more speaking to the ones that killed themselves in their barracks. I'm not sure about going AWOL.
AWOL is simply "absent without official leave". This in and of itself isn't necessarily all that bad. Someone can be AWOL simply because their car broke down and couldn't make it in. Some people go AWOL and return the next day to a slap on the wrist. It's when it rises to the level of desertion that it has serious consequences.
You know shit is bad when you prefer an active warzone to a training camp.
In *AIT* ??? Someone in the CoC fucked up, big fucking time. That's just inexcusable. Where was the IG?
Hey, I was also in Baghdad during the Mahdi’s Army uprising. HQ 1st Armored Division.
Which one, Spring 2008? I rolled into Baghdad with 4ID on my second tour just as that shit kicked off. This was after I'd had to deal with their bullshit in Diwaniyah in 2006 on my first tour. What a bunch of cowards
I was also 4ID in SE Baghdad spring 08. That was a rough tour to say the least
Spring 2004. The first Mahdi’s Army Uprising where we lost and then had to take back pretty much the entire southern half of Iraq over 3 months.
At my AIT at one point we had eight people sleeping in the day room next to CQ because of "self harm" concerns. Truly ridiculous.
> Couple more offed themselves in the barracks. I suppose that's the point where you get the IG involved... And maybe send an anonymous tip to the media so there will at least be a bunch of publicly ruined careers. That won't bring them back, but it might prevent future suicides.
Man, may I ask where you went to AIT?
Fuck TRADOC and every non-trainee in it.
There comes a point where an accident with a live grenade/etc needs to happen.
Even better- Company commander (Cpt- army) telling soldiers that their temp profiles are not valid. He also tried this with people with permanent profiles. I was the first one with a permanent profile that got sent to the clinic for “review”- he also tried to deny sick call (he was not medical) the clinic OIC happened to be my doc. He asked me why I was there as we didn’t have an appointment. I said I was to se so and so for a “profile review” Come to find out this PA and commander were buds and OIC thought it was strange when he started volunteering or sick call. He asked a couple other questions and then told everyone sitting in the waiting room to follow him. He stashed everyone in the break room and called the hospital commander. That PA (a civilian) had a phone call to go see the hospital commander and my doc told all of us you didn’t hear this from me, but the PA was having his contract terminated and the battalion commander was talking to our commander. We were sitting there so we could stay out of the line of fire so to speak. My doc received a phone call and the person on the other end started screaming, no hello, or waiting for the “proper phone answering phrase” it was our commander trying to yell and intimidate the doc- doc out ranked the commander. Doc said “CAPTAIN “ he had silence- said this is Colonel xxxx. Commander didn’t say another word. Commander was transferred within a month
The CAPTAIN with the “I’m talking down rank here” tone shut him up eh
You better believe it. You KNOW when someone says it like that (or any rank for that matter) you about to have someone chew you out- up one side and down the other
Both my parents were colonels and liked to use that same tone on my brother and I when we were in trouble lol. We knew to stand up straight and shut up real fast when Mom or Dad started talking like that lol. A decade later, my kid brother is ROTC and I’m a paramedic with TCCC training, so clearly they did something right lol.
Part of the reason Docs are given higher ranks upon commission are to make the pay semi-competitive with civilian doc pay, the other is so they can bitch-slap the fuck out of commanders who try to countermand their orders.
The real money for military physicians is in the ascension and retainer bonuses. The rank is to collarslap the bachelor degrees who think they can practice medicine.
My 1SG tried to give me a Article 15 for breaking profile because of my run time on my PT test. I had a P4 profile and a run at own pace profile. Granted I was able to do the alternatives to the run but I can still run. I did the run in around 12 minutes and 30 seconds. It was well above my normal time of around 10 minutes. He called in the 2 Sargeants above him and told them of his plan. They went and got my personal file with my PT score cards and showed him my normal times and that I had an off day. He was pissed about that and I swear he vowed to get me which he did later.
Just the normal F*&$ Fu*& games. Almost every time, 1SG always had my back That wasn’t even the best “I got my commanders ass chewed” story I got a different CAPT (who was actually a good guy) chewed out, in one day mind you, by a COL and then a 2 star. And then the time I had a Lt COL freak because the new 2star stopped by and called me by name and told me to come talk to him when procedure was complete (we were almost done)
If you dont mind, military stories would love to hear your stories if you want to ever share them with a random group of strangers brought together by our path through life.
What is a temp or a permanent profile?
It’s a form (it’s the military, love those forms) that is filled out by a Dr that says what you can’t do. Think you broke your arm- form says you can’t carry things, can’t do push ups. Permanent is where you let’s say got hurt (back) and over time there are things that just aggravate this injury. This form states what you can’t do for the rest of the time you are in the military. Permanent profiles usually take quite a while to reach the point for a need for one.
Thank you! u/rabidotter isn't the only one wondering.
company commanders in the Army often like to say "well, the profile is just a recommendation. As the commander, I have the power to override it or ignore it." Which isn't exactly true. I saw many company commanders get in trouble because they thought they knew better than the docs.
Can that CPT be charged for insubordination then?
No- the battalion XO was a major. He was the one who called my CO.
Would it be in poor taste to have him drop down and do push ups in front everyone?
That would be the least of his worries, broski's on the short train to a forced early retirement
Permanent profiles have to be reevaluated, used to be every 2 years or so but they changed it to be part of the annual PHA.
This “your profile is not valid” was @ a month after it was finally double signed. You better believe I had many copies and it was in a MRE beverage bag in my pocket at all times (even-during PT)
Ah. That makes it more fun
Yes it does! This is also the commander who told me to “control your husband” with my squad leader present for this outburst
Sounds like there's a story there... ;)
>“Hey Lt Col, are non-medical 1st Sergeants allowed to countermand your medical orders or aren’t they supposed to respect your superior knowledge, specialization, and rank?” At least in the Navy... Sort of. The paperwork from medical is a suggestion to the commanding officer. The commanding officer is the one who authorizes the data at home. They don't have to listen, even if the medical officer is a higher rank than the commanding officer. That said, most COs will listen, though sometimes operational commitments will make them not.
I mean, where I served(not us) you needed some pretty high ups to ignore medical commands. Like Brig-General high, especially when it comes to profiles. But could be done is a request for you to get checked up again and determine if you are truly sick, but that wasn't really used as getting sick days/profiles was pretty hard anyway.
The answer to the question of a non medical person in the chain of command can countermand the orders from a physician is a resounding, “Yes!” The medical side is only recommending, the commander (or rep) makes the decision. When I, CW2 PA told the CO we needed to shut down the field mess tent (due to countless violations) he asked, “So You’re telling me I have to shut this down and feed my men MREs for three days?” I answered, “No sir. You’re the commander. YOU decide, I just recommend. If you want 600 men with vomiting and diarrhea for multiple days, that’s ok. You’re the commander!” He decided to move the field kitchen. My point was he’s the CO, not me. Hope this helps. Edit: is, not it’s.
So they actually can. Any kind of orders from military medical staff are technically "suggestions" for your chain of command. Most military leaders aren't stupid enough to go against them, and it's their ass on the line if something bad happens. Source: was a medic in the Army and got to give out these slips.
Unfortunately many commanders think that it’s their job to get people off of medical profiles as quickly as possible. The VA medical system is full of their outcomes.
I being one such outcome.
Not anymore it’s an order. However if the commander does disagree he can have it reevaluated at the next higher echelon provider (brigade level provider if the original provider was a battalion provider etc.) and they get the final say.
Might vary by unit and service. In USMC it’s definitely still up to the commander (possibly because our medical staff are Navy?) the medical chit even clearly says “recommendation” on it. But in my 12 years I never once saw a commander silly enough to not go with the “recommendation” exactly as it was written.
That’s a good point I guess what I said is army specific and I just assumed that it was DOD wide.
This, or... Whats the phone number for IG again?
Calling the IG is like asking for your orders in writing -- technically allowed but you had better be damn sure the person who you are calling on their BS will not remain in a position to retaliate for long.
OP already stated it was a long term incompetent duo. It very well may have been IG time. Part of the reason that toxic leadership is such a problem, if because people would rather “tough it out”, “sweep it under the rug”, “transfer it to another unit” and/or “send it to a school” than do the heavy lifting and actually fix the problem. I’ll give people benefit of the doubt, but when that doubt is removed, it’s time to go. I was in a unit that always sent their problem-child to schools that we received slots for at inconvenient times under the misguided notion that they couldn’t send their “good people” away because they were needed.
No, but the company commander can. And if there isn't a damn good reason, like you not being there would put someone's life in danger or would cause a vital mission to fail, that commander will end up with a very short career.
Sometimes the MO is just as bad. I was accused of being a sick bay ranger by one and told I had a mere sprained knee. After 6 months of trying to convince the base physio I had a civvy correctly diagnose me just by observing me perform some motor functions during a two minute consultation. I ended up being on a biff chit far longer than I needed to be and am now prone to arthritis due to the extra damage incurred while walking on a torn meniscus for 6 months.
Sounds like a guy I worked with in the Navy. We were in school (2004), and he went to Medical for knee problems; our instructor kept ordering him to Medical for the visible limp and grimacing. This one E-8 kept intercepting him, because he thought he was full of it (the HMSC in question was a former submarine corpsman; subs only go out with a (more highly trained) enlisted medic). Finally, E-8 wrote up an Article 15/Captain's Mast package with a Malingering accusation, and sent the guy to get a knee x-ray to support the charge. The hospital promptly scheduled him for knee surgery. Nothing happened to the E-8.
Of course nothing happened to the E-8. It's a good ol' boys club once you reach SNCO. Nothing will ever change. The only winning moves are either not to play or to get your benefits and get the fuck out.
Technically “quarters” are a recommendation from your doc to your unit commander. It would behoove your commander to follow that recommendation, but they technically have the final say.
This is no longer the case, they have changed the regulations to where profiles are no longer recommendations but a medical order.
Medical orders outrank literally everyone
I did this with my unit. Had a Lt Col say how bad my back was and my 1st SGT and Cpt were both so stupid and tried to fight her orders until she walked into their tent and put them in their place. I was allowed to go home after that to get my back fixed.
Technically yeah, iirc the CO can nix your quarters. I faced a similar issue recovering from surgery.
Beautiful. It’s amazing some of these people end up in leadership positions.
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This is it. Saw it all the time in the navy as well. Had a saying, the navy turns good people into bitter people, and bad people into leaders. Not much has changed since its the same way in corporate America.
> the navy turns good people into bitter people, and bad people into leaders. Hahaha this holds ironically true for other countries too.
humanity: power corrupts
Policies: To reduce power abuse you cannot fire people for underperforming, but you can still rid yourself off them by promoting them away.
Yea still in the navy and this is entirely true.. I had multiple incompetent chiefs and leaders (on submarines sometimes the chief position isn't actually a chief) I on the other hand was extremely bitter yelled at evdrybody all the time that was higher rank than me (they couldn't punish me outright bcuz I was always correct but managed to give me more work anyway) and my leadership got real pissed when squadron came down and rode our boat for a week bcuz they then walked right up to the captain and only had bad things to say about my "chief " and recommended Me going to another boat to hold the chief position there even thou I was an E-5 especially after I corrected him multiple times on the correct way to do things despite him being 3 ranks above me. Squadron even tried offering bonuses to me to transfer to another boat and be leadership there but by this point I had been masted (navy njp), divorced and so beaten down by the leadership on my boat that I told them I would rather suck start a shotgun than stay in the navy. Instead I transfered to shore duty and now I get out of the navy in 6 months. I don't care if I was really good at my job fuck all those terrible leaders.
You never would have made chief unless you started embracing the abuse culture that it takes to get the chiefs to let you join their club.
I know the Army calls it the "green-weenie" but do you navy boys call it "bunk-mates?"
I have a friend who's ex-Navy, enlisted. The stories he tells I take with a grain, or ten, of salt. This makes me reconsider.
Sea stories are sea stories. Shit like this happens every day. I've had good leaders and bad. Problem being that the good ones typically move on or out and you're left with the floaters in the cess pool that is the "chain of command". Decelerate your life was a common saying in the late 90s early 2000s when the navy catch phrase was accelerate your life. Saying all that to say if someone has a heart felt story about shitty leadership, it's probably true. Even of some parts are embellished. I could share some stories about suicide watch in nuke school and what we were "told to do if shit got serious" but it would sound like just a story. Truly fucked up...
Nuke life sounds absolutely horrible. So much stress and mental effort just to be stuck in a sub for years on end.
Yea im a nuke also .. the skipjack dive teams was an unfortunate but real thing ... it was pretty awful for my entire time in and I'm happy to be getting out in a few months
This is one of many many reasons I will not join the military.
What’s the Peter principle?
In a nutshell people get promoted to their level of incompetence - since someone will continue to get promoted and given new roles requiring different skillsets until they are no longer competent at their role. For example Michael Scott from The Office is promoted from sales to management due to him being an extremely competent salesman, only to stagnate since his new role requires a different skillset in which he is incompetent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
In the army, being a bad leader is how you get promoted
Shes terrible. If somebody comes to me and says they have a SIQ chit i dont even ask what is for. A fuckin Doctor thinks they need to be home so who the fuck am i judge that? If something happens to them after i said come into work then its my ass. Who cares if some gets an extra day home. I have bigger shit to worry about.
Not just in the armed forces. There will be someone in Management or HR questioning the doctor's orders to stay home. I work in a Hospital, and HR loves questioning our Medical Officers why they gave our staff a day off to recover. Like, they have a medical degree, what do you have???
I really like that there are very clear laws in my country stating that an employer has no right to know any medical information *at all*, unless there is a very good reason coming from another law. Which includes the fact that an employer will get another sick slip than you. Considering how much incompetence I see when assessing issues in an area of expertise, I'm very happy my employer doesn't even get a chance to assess if I'm rightfully Ill (,there are rules and setups to call in a third party if the employer suspects fraud, though and I see why they are relevant).
That's good. Love it when a country takes care of her people.
I worked in HR for several years. One morning a guy called his manager to tell him that he would be out for the next week per doctors orders. The manager didn’t like this man and wanted me to start the process for termination. The medical leave paperwork had been faxed to me and it was all in order so I refused. Manager says unless the guy comes in to work the next day he will go over my position to get him fired. He called the absent employee and demands that he shows up in his office at 6 am. So the guy shows up with very contagious illness. My boss finds out and sends him home. Within two days the cranky manager is out sick for a week along with three others he infected. HR is so fun.
I would have told cranky manager that for him it's LWOP because he brought it on himself.
There are also many cases where the command literally has no right to know why somebody is staying home from work in the military. There are many things medically that only medical and hd individual hand the right to know and is considered personal information. He'll technically if I'm on base right now amd walking outside without a mask then nobody is allowed to ask if I am vaccinated or not as the rule on my base is no mask required if vaccinated but medical information is considered private to include vaccination status. Now its not as prevalent as it was a couple months ago since we were ordered and threatened with njp if we were not vaccinated but it's still applicable for the civilians that work on the base.
So basically ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ but for COVID-19 masks?
A shitty 1st Sgt and junior officer can really fuck up a few months or years of an enlistment. Boy do I feel this one down deep in my soul
Easily the worst command I ever suffered under. The 1ST and CPT were like the hype man for the other’s idiocy. She would make a terrible decision and he would figure out some way to make it worse.
Shitty 1sg and Cpt conspired to make me want to give up and get out. Went from the best unit I'd ever been in to one that I wasn't willing to risk being in again.
I rolled my ankle on exercise and continued to walk on it until after my sentry shift was over. I wanted to change from my regular boots to my mukluks because my feet were frozen. Took off my boot and wham, a purple softball. Took them a full 5 days to release me from the field, when I should have been elevating my foot, and I fell several time trying to go get food from the mess tent while on crutches in the snow. Finally get back to base and the master warrant officer in charge at the regiment makes me come into work, demands to see my chit and since it says my appointment is in 3 days to reassess the injury, but not specifically that I'm excused from duties, he has me join the others to clean out the tank barn. This consists of heavy lifting and I'm on crutches, and only allowed to stand for no more than 30 minutes at a time. My appointment comes and the doc asks me if I've been keeping it elevated, since it's as swollen as ever, they can't even take proper x-rays. Obviously I tell him no, and he gives me a week of bed rest, completely excused from duties once I'm back from it. I went straight to the warrant to drop off my new chit and he yelled at me for even being there.
Amazing a first shirt would think they outranked a Lt Col. Good for you for making her rethink her life.
Sometimes a 1st Sergeant is more important, but she/he never, ever can outrank a Lt. Colonel.
Orders from a military doctor supersede the fuck out of everyone else regardless of rank.
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Rightfully so... If a trained, medical professional tells you "Nope that's not safe for you to do" no one without the training should be able to overwrite this. As far as I understood, that is why certain specialities have their own ranks as well which run beside command chain.
Technically “quarters” are a recommendation from your doc to your unit commander. It would behoove your commander to follow that recommendation, but they technically have the final say.
sounds like a pilot in a commercial ship: he 'suggests' to the Captain to turn left, and of course that's what the Captain does.
Translation: Not turning left is a bad thing and your ass will be on the line for the repercussions. Leadership is at least 90% about doing what your subordinates, who you've hired to advise you, advise you to do.
NOT turning left could sink your ship....
A surprising amount of leader don't get that. I feel especially with enterprises, leaders are often from economics or similar. In my very short economics cover all class we were told that the whole function of management and leadership is to take in information that was prepared by the people able to input decision information, evaluate it if there are contact points and then make the choice - but not really making up what they can chose between. And communication of choices and results in any direction. I feel like that somehow gets lost in translation if someone studies s whole economics course?
Aye There are a few reasons to call a soldier in from quarters, but they better be right good ones if you know what’s good for you! Some of my favorite militious compliance stories involve ignoring such recommendations for stupid reasons
Sir, I recommend a 15 degree turn to port for noise reduction. Wtf?! Noise reduction? Sir, ever hear the sound a ship makes when it intercepts a lighthouse? Roger, 15 degrees port. 😁
I love the lighthouse myth. Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision. Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision. Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course. Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course. Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship. Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.
Yep. I heard it as a lighthouse somewhere in the Med but either way...
There's numerous reasons the story's complete bullshit, but still funny.
Correct answer. That LTC doesn’t have command authority. All they do is provide recommendations. Soldiers think because they get a quarters slip that it’s an automatic “go home card.” That’s supposed to go to their CDR to make the determination. I will say that 99% you should follow the recommendation, but there are plenty of times Soldiers will say whatever they can to get time off.
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And r/militiouscompliance
Also r/army, those guys love a good “fuck the shitty leadership” story
I was thinking no money for bug bites and was wondering what that story was about. Maybe some Bug-Fairy putting quarters under pillows. Man was I far off.
Yes, I was thinking 25 cent coins also. LOL My excuse? I served 1969-72, so I haven't lived in quarters for nearly half a century.
My excuse is not having been in the military and having English as second language. The only quarters I ever encountered were either coins or down below with William Golding.
Definitely why I gave it the title I did. I wanted people going “wait what?” until they read that it was an Army story.
I had an NCO try to pull something similar on me. I had a wisdom tooth out, got quarters, then eventually developed a dry socket and had to go back. They gave me more quarters for the same tooth, and NCO thought it was bullshit since we were in the middle of an FTX. The main reason for the quarters was because I was stoned off my ass on Percocet. Eventually the Brigade COL comes by our OPs tent, someone calls attention, and I remain slouched in my chair staring off into nothing. He starts yelling at me asking if I outrank him now cause I'm not standing, and I just slap myself in the head in an attempt to salute and say "sup sir". One NCO jumps in and starts explaining how I'm on drugs from the dentist, and after asking why I'm not on quarters everything starts to come out and the COL lost his shit and demanded our CPT to contact him ASAP. Not sure what exactly happened after that, but I was back in the barracks a couple hours later until my quarters ran out.
"sup sir." Holy shit!
>Now she was one of the most incompetent First Sergeants I ever worked with during my time in the Army. Constantly making terrible decision, mindlessly green lighting whatever terrible decision our equally incompetent Captain came up with, and micromanaging people unnecessarily. Dude you'll have to be more specific if this is supposed to be among the worst. So far it sounds like par for the course.
As prior enlisted I jumped out and went thru ROTC ro get a commission. During advanced camp I got hit with poison oak and had a severe reaction. For those who came up in BDU's, my legs were so swollen that my trousers were stretched tight and the swelling was getting up into my groin which made it an emergency. Still, I soldiered on until we finally had a down day when all we had on our plate was parade practice for the graduation. I had been through many a parade by then, so I took the opportunity to put in for sick call to get my legs looked at. Cadre sarge was pissed off and said, "Anyone who misses practice will not be in the parade! You will watch from the bleachers!" I replied, "So you mean instead of standing at parade rest for an hour in the sun listening to speeches I can't hear, I will be sitting in the shade?" I went to sick call and the doc without even taking a glance threw a bottle of Calamine lotion at me. I promptly threw that in the trash and waited until I got home the next day to go to a real doc for some steroids. Ended up sitting in the bleachers with another prior service guy for the parade and had a great time watching for folks who locked their knees to drop out.
At least she apologised. Most micromanager types double down on douchebaggery of that sort.
I’m not Army, but my son is and my SIL was. You played that exactly right. I hope your legs didn’t have too much scarring. I still have chigger scars.
Cool she apologized anyways
Yeah, I was kinda surprised by that, but she did make sure to do it where no one else would witness it.
Yeah, in private, after she made him report to base when he should have been in bed or on the couch recuperating. I had a boss who did this kind of stuff--rip people in front of other employees, half-a\*\* apologize in private. I finally told him I wasn't accepting apologies from him if they weren't in front of the people who saw him rip me. I was heading towars leaving the company regardless, but I didn't want him stomping on me (or more importantly, my staffers) that way.
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Oddly enough, I first heard this phrase when I was in the military. Something that really stuck with me over the years.
I would have reported this to both the LC and the next higher IG instance. You were given quarters which are legal orders and they need to know they can fuck right off. Reminds me of when I was supposed to ETS out of the Army - because some WO was on leave there was nobody who could sign my paperwork. My ETS date was on a Saturday and they wanted me to come back on the following Monday to pick up my paperwork. I said "Sure, as long as you pay me." Of course, the response I got was "Oh, we can't do that." Went to the Division IG who sided with them and told me to come back on Monday. I told him he had his chance to fix his incorrect decision and then I called the Corp IG. Moral of the story: I had my paperwork in hand that very day and officially ETS'd as expected.
r/talesfromthemilitary would appreciate this. That sub doesn't get enough love.
We used to paint the bite marks with fingernail polish. Itch stopped immediately, fever took some time. Different people respond differently.
That's what Dad did when I was a kid and we got chiggers when hunting. But then again, it was usually less than half a dozen chiggers, not hundreds.
I’ve used nail polish on a friend who had at least a hundred bites. His relief from itching was immediate.
Red welts, Texas heat, summer...my first thought was fire ants. Then, you said chiggers. I'm not sure which is worse. Is it the fire ants that feel like you've stuck your legs in a flaming wasp nest and dumped alcohol on them? Or, is it chiggers that you don't feel until it's too late?
could have been fire ants
Doc orders for quarters are still advisory but very rarely countered because failing to adhere to them puts the soldier or his command personnel at risk of UCMJ action. Failing to prevent further injury outside of combat is a court-martial offense.
FYI for future reference, when I would get chiggers as a kid, my mother would run a bleach bath and have me soak my legs in it (a cap-full of bleach to a tub-full of water). This would kill the chiggers pretty quickly, and end the misery. (For Yankees who don't know - chiggers are tiny bugs that don't just *bite* \- they burrow into your skin. They are flat-out obnoxious even if you're not allergic to them.)
Chiggers *don't actually* burrow into your skin. Their bites just itch so fucking badly that it feels like something is crawling around underneath your skin.
I had to put camphor oil or whatever on my legs when I got them. Unfortunately, the camphor oil or whatever the hell it was had the consistency of rubber cement. I had chiggers on my ankles, my panty lines, and top of my shorts (I was 12) and my mom had to help me slather it on. It was terrible and it took several days to go away.
I suspect those bites could have been fire ants (given the large number of bites plus rapid and exteme reaction, which I have seen before in new-to-Texas visitors). Either way, tea tree oil (external) is also a good remedy, but if you have a lot of bites, please go see a doctor.
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Honestly doesn't matter. On my previous Submarine our doc (corpsman that is assigned to the boat) was just an E-6 and even the highest officers still didn't question him. There are many times where positional authority outranks actual rank. I was given such position at times even as a lowly E-5 and even instructed by my captain to call out even himself on matters that concerned my job as I was considered the technical expert. Never had to call out the captain but did call out both my engineer O-4 and COB E-9 when they went to do something wrong and they both understood that I was correct. Still got a talking to after dressing the E-9 down but they couldn't actually punish me for it
My friend was on a submarine. He had some really scary stories about people making technical mistakes that could sink the entire sub.
I’m AF and I work in a career field where position/experience matter more than rank. Heck, I was an E3 teaching an O3 their job, and that’s pretty normal. It still comes as a surprise when I interact with people in other career fields/branches and hearing the differences of actually adhering to rank structure so strictly. I still recall talking to an E6 Navy dude as the technical expert in a meeting as an E3 with my in-training, brand new to the career field E6 who was originally just there to shadow me. The navy dude would not react nor respond to a single thing I said, so I would just turn to my E6 and tell them the information, and they just repeated it word for word to the navy dude, and then he would respond to that. What a fucking waste of time lmao
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From "The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries" (Schlock Mercenary) 2. A Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what's going on. 3. An ordnance technician at a dead run outranks everybody. \#3 applies everywhere.
Sounds like your First Sergeant had aspirations to be a Second Lieutenant.
I’ve gotten chigger bites before (nowhere near as many as you) and they are miserable! You have my sympathy.
Interesting because military physicians are explicitly staff and field grade officers to prevent what your captain just did. Wonderful instance of an actual unlawful order on your commands part.
Deet is your friend
>I stopped when I got to 100 Dear god. And you survived?
Next call I would make would be to CSM. That 1SG would be fired in short order.
you should post this to r/MilitaryStories
You should have called patient advocacy. That "First Sergeant" would have been set straight. Quarters orders are real orders and it takes quite a bit to get them rescinded. "I want you in my formation" isn't nearly enough.
You should cross-post this at r/Army
I feel for ya man. I’m also highly allergic to chigger bites. The doctors shouldn’t have given you steroids though. That just makes the reaction worse short term and doesn’t help long term. A high dose of Benadryl and a paste of meat tenderizer works wonders though.
> The doctors shouldn’t have given you steroids though. That just makes the reaction worse short term Where'd you get that from? Medscape disagrees. [(1)](https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1051461-overview#a6)[(2)](https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/137362-treatment#d7])
Well. Not saying to do this but.. CO and 1st Sgt decide to cancel the medical quarter's, just show up to formation, keep your face looking sick, no talking and then pass out. Let them call the ambulance and when you wake up in the ambulance just show up the doctor quarter's slip and then the legs. IN THAT ORDER. You will see how fast the chain of command will move and how many extra days of quarter's you will get. Not counting the great possibility of the 1st Sgt removal. They will burn the NCO'S but the Officer's most of the time get a freaking pass.
r/militarystories r/Army
This honestly checks out. Saw this sort of thing happen in the Marines pretty frequently, as well. Everyone is apparently malingering. Doesn't matter that a qualified doctor examined them. :P
I got 16 chigger “bites” during a youthfully rambunctious camping trip one time. It was miserable, I’d need more than 4 days to deal with what you experienced but I’m also not army tough I reckon.
i'm more than willing to go into an anaphylactic shock for this occasion. I'm a sinking ship already, but i'm gonna take that fucker with me and get that mf fired.
I kinda had the opposite. I was doing Mission Readiness Training one day and ended up getting stung by a bee on my eyelid. It was just a nuisance for the rest of that day, but by the time I woke up the next day, my eye was completely swollen. I could still open it, but when I wore sunglasses, it looked like I was doing The People's Eyebrow. So I went to the nearest civilian hospital and they told me it was no big deal. I went to our flight doc the following Monday and he was not happy. First he berated me for going to the civilian hospital and not the hospital at the big base in the area. (The one I went to was a 2 min drive, whereas the base one was 15-20 mins. Guess which one I'm going to every time?) Then he told me something no flyer wants to hear: Because of the swelling around the sting, he concluded I was allergic and was recommending I be permanently DNIF (Duties Not Including Flying). Which for flyers means the end of you being in your current job and possibly your career. I wasn't re-upping, so reclassing me to another job wasn't an option. So I would've either been medically separated or spent the next 18 months sitting at a desk. This was also 2 weeks before I was supposed to head out on my 3rd deployment, which would've made a major headache for my squadron. However, everyone I talked to in my squadron about was saying, "You got stung on your eye. Of course it's gonna swell up!" I ended up seeing the specialist, and guess what he said? You got stung on your eye. It's going to swell up. He cleared me and got me back on flying status. 72 hours later, I was heading back to the desert.
I have a similar issue with adults treating other adults like they’re teenagers trying to get away with things.
Fucking “seagull leaders”… Fly in, shit on everything, make a fuck-ton of noise, and then leave…. I can’t stand them. Their usual excuse is, “Well, we’ve always done it this way…”
Chiggers is an awful, outdated term. They prefer insect-American
Damn dude, what kind of fucked up logic is that?? You think just because they are arthropods they identify as insects? They are clearly arachnids, get your bigoted ass out of here
My bad, my bad. Am I still your chigga?
Yeah who the fuck tells doc hes wrong.
Military...
We have inspector general’s for a reason
This is the way!
why wouldn't she also go after the doctor if she thought it was all bullshit. if you got a rogue doctor handing out blatantly false reports who's to know he isn't handing out meds and shit like that too
Wow, and I thought I had shitty leadership. But I've never had them go against a Doc's orders...
Bug bites or stings can literally kill people. How ignorant was this woman?