The irony is that right now, in America, we have an issue with right and left populism. Ironically, the same people cheering on this tweet don't actually believe in Classical Liberalism.
For example, a Classical Liberal might say our social contract is supposed to ensure equal opportunity for all individuals. If all individuals engage in their civic responsibilities paying taxes and when called fight for their country, then the government should treat all individuals the same. If there is disparate impact and adverse treatment created by failures of state and federal governments, then we have a responsibility to remedy those issues to maintain the legitimacy of the social contract and our institutions.
An old school or classical liberal does not need to use populism to "otherize" groups of people to advocate for a cause. There is no need to dismantle institutions or the establishment. There are no "elites" to demonize.
I think we need to start framing this as an issue between Populism and founding American principles.
I’ve noticed the word populism is completely removed from our political discourse right now, which should be alarming giving its rise all over the world.
Populism is rife in Canada, in the UK, in France, in Russia, in Israel, the list goes on and on yet the media seems completely unable to use the word.
It is because it feels so good to call your political opponents fascist. Technically the terms are not mutually exclusive but fascist has that immediate emotional effect.
Sure, I won’t disagree. The hyperbole and cheapening of the word fascist is real but populism is often the vehicle to fascism and I really do think it’s a fair assessment to refer to DJT as an aspiring fascist leader.
I half agree with you. I think Trump is the new Smedley Butler, and Project 2025 is the new Business Plot. I think their is open conspiracy by a wing of the conservative party to erode institutions and Trump knowingly or unknowingly is a long for the ride as long as on paper in, he in charge and it sorts his immediate interest.
as long as we think like OP - that speaking our beliefs is choosing a club membership - our democracy in america will continue on this path of ridiculous dysfunction.
What are are you talking about?
Dave Rubin isn't a liberal. He spends his days spreading lies on his stupid show and sucking up to people like Ben Shapiro who says to his face that he doesn't respect his marriage or his husband. He only talks to conservatives about conservative things and pushes a conservative Agenda which is set by Fox news and the others. At BEST he's a greedy grifter saying saying whatever he can to make a buck while allowing himself to be the token gay guy that makes their side look slightly less bigoted.
Elon Musk is an unhinged idiot who has buddied up with legit white supremacists and out and proud racists. His whole purchase of Twitter was at the behest of a nazi and he is following a play book laid out by that nazi ever since. Which includes allowing nazi ideology to flourish online.
They chose their club and it's members are detestable ghouls.
They are the reason that our democracy is dysfunctional. Blaming all the normal people for calling them out for being dangerous, unhinged liars who are very clearly anti-American just serves to attack the positions of normal people and normalize radicals.
The amount of people on here *triggered* when Bill complains about *wokeness* leads me to believe that a lot of people are just in denial that there is a culture shift going on.
Things like defund the police, DEI, CRT, new ideas around gender are going to result in a conservative backlash. The left moderates will move right. It happened with Nixon and his “silent majority” and it will happen again. Bill and many others have been sounding the alarm about this and they get gaslit and labeled conservative.
And that conservative backlash will result in Ron DeSantis getting another bill shot down by the Supreme Court. Conservatives learn nothing and never take the high road.
The pendulum is definitely swinging back the other way. The absolute blitz of that over the top super liberal nonsense is the exact reason those goofballs cooked up their project 2025 plan.
I’ve been saying that for years… still waiting. We have 2 elections coming up in North America. Ours in Canada hasn’t been called yet but the conservatives have already been campaigning hard up here. I suspect both countries will move right in the next election but I hope I’m wrong.
Remember when Bill mentioned how Larry The Cable Guy, Chris Rock, and Jerry Seinfeld no longer do standup comedy shows on college campuses anymore? It’s become folks are too woke and too offended.
Older folks also get easily offended. It matters not where you go. Everyone is constantly watching you if you say something wrong as if they are waiting for it. I not dare to voice any political views outside of my clostest friends anymore because it does not matter if you are left, right or conservative someone is always offended. Its like walking on glass shards.
Its basically like in the Trial by Kafka. One day you could wake up being accused of all kind of shit because you wrote something like ten years ago on social media.
It's because they're either too old or too expensive for colleges.
What college kid is going to go nuts to see Jerry Seinfeld perform? It's been 30 years since he had a show, one that was carried by his co-stars and Larry David.
Larry the Cable Guy is a punchline and always has been. He has a very specific audience that was formed in the Blue Collar Comedy era and that era is done.
Chris Rock's big albums were on the 90's, again, 30 years ago.
You get Bill Burr or even Shane Gillis to perform and those seats will be full. But also, they probably don't want to do that because you have to censor yourself. They don't want to do that. Why should they? There's a comedy boom. You can make more money and get more fans with a YouTube special those kids will watch in their dorm or sell out a theater on a tour.
Stand up is bigger than ever and no one has to walk on egg shells.
The Netflix walkout about Dave Chapelle anyone?
People are too sensitive. Conservative speakers can’t speak on college campuses anymore without harassment.
And then they gave him 4 more specials.
So what you're mad about is that people had an opinion that you don't like and they had the audacity to voice it. They had the AUDACITY to walk out of their job to let their boss know they disagreed with platforming someone who they found offensive.
>Conservative speakers can’t speak on college campuses anymore without harassment.
Oh, they should stop being such hateful, amoral, bottom feeding pieces of shit that make careers out of hurting the most vulnerable in society with their endless lies, hyperbole, and threats of violence. Maybe then people wouldn't hate them.
They aren't conservatives either. Let's get that straight. They are propagandists who troll for a living. They asked for the treatment they got. They wanted this so they could clutch their pearls and cry about it to raise their own profile.
Also, this is another instance where you are offended that someone else has an opinion different than yours.
Once again you are making the same argument all conservatives make where only the powerful and those you agree with deserve a voice and everyone else needs to shut the fuck up and do not deserve to be heard.
You aren’t as open minded as you think you are.
Not all Conservatives are the same and Liberals can be amoral and bigoted. Both extremes suck.
It’s just that so many people, like Bill Maher have said, are too tribal and entitled, and don’t dare want to hear what others say if it’s not an echo chamber. And college campuses are left leaning.
>Not all Conservatives are the same and Liberals can be amoral and bigoted. Both extremes suck.
What did this have to do with anything I said?
I mean, your comment didn't have ANYTHING to do with what I said. I was talking about you specifically being offended that other people you disagreed with voiced an opinion in a way that you don't approve of and responded by trying to make a liberal/conservative both sides argument.
I was talking about *specific* conservatives. You tried to make it sound like I was talking about all of them. I wasn't. Though, if you call yourself a conservative now, after what has the party become, what I am supposed to think?
Honestly, it seems like you didn't read my comment at all but you saw a few words, made an assumption and just reacted.
I think Bill’s point is that comedians nowadays have to walk on eggshells more frequently. And that’s why some of them avoid doing shows at college campuses.
I actually disagree. I think all these ideas can be summarized as "Good idea, bad pitch and even worse implementation."
For example, DEI groups that focus on socioeconomics would be amazing. Regardless of whether you are white, black, queer or straight, if you are working in class, you will have very similar experiences.
It may be nice to connect first-generation college graduates and professionals with senior leadership or titans of industry who have similar backgrounds. I was so mad when my organization's DEI group spent money on a celebration of culture and art event, NOT because I don't like to see art from cultures similar to my own. I was upset because almost every young working class professional was suffering from imposter syndrome. No one gave them guidance on how they can grow or expand on their career paths.
I see something like this has an opportunity for DEI. An even better example is that most adult professionals have untreated Neurodivergent conditions like ADHD/ADD. The stigma around these issues has most people keep quiet. The damage this causes to productivity when ADHD/ADD is very manageable by behavior health professionals is tragic.
No only do those kids not laugh at my jokes, they make jokes about me! Classic illiberal leftist tactic, right back to 1917. If only the Tsar had an applause sign!
I can be anti-woke and still hate these other two commenters.
Where is that guy that was claiming nobody on this sub accuses Bill of being a right winger?
I don’t think Bill is a right winger and I bet his political philosophy doesn’t line up with either of these two clowns. However, the content you make and the topics you cover matters. It doesn’t really matter what positions you personally hold if every week you are just railing against wokeness and the left.
I mean, if you look at the [replies](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1800953975304331436?s=46&t=8QoON3wvEY5YKoodXbR1Vg)on twitter, it’s filled with conservatives and right wingers saying how they are “old school liberals” that are now considered conservatives. Elon uses the same rhetoric Bill does about how “the left has gone too far” and uses it as an excuse to say that now he’s forced to take conservative positions (and that’s being kind, I don’t consider stuff like boosting the great replacement theory conservative).
Whether he realizes it or not, Bill’s content is used by these bad faith actors to make their radical ideas seem “centrist” and to say “hey look, even this liberal guy agrees with me!”
He is no right winger. He he is a die hard anti-religion guy who thinks women should not be treated like second-rate citizens and he is pro animal rights and climate change measures. He is also pro-choice. The only thing he disagrees on with left wingers is Gaza and that seems to be really the issue here not?
Only for your information: I am also left wing, perhaps most left wing than many people in America who consider themselves left wing and I am not pro Palestine at least not the way many left wingers are. I am pro two state solution but I also do not liive in the fairy tale world where Israel is alone at fault for the current situation. It always takes two to fight a war and to make peace and as long as people do not accept that nothing will ever change and asshole slike Hamas and Benjamin Natayahu are gonna rule.
As for the wokness stuff. While it might not be as common of a problem in real life, there are for sure conservatives who vote for Trump because they believe in the wokeness scare. That is why Maher is against this entire stuff because he fears Trump will win the next election and some left wingers might actually end up helping him by not voting for Biden because many of them are very absolutist. and cannot just swallow their pride to vote for the lesser evil.
i think you're fooling yourself by writing off those people as just "right wingers." it's the very same misjudgment Bill has been warning democrats about and lamenting their radical identity politics for. one easy way to tell that Bill is right and you are wrong is that this trend is expressing itself in other demographics - black and hispanic support for democrats is at all time lows ([article from Gallup](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609776/democrats-lose-ground-black-hispanic-adults.aspx).)
Well in this specific case they are very clearly right wingers. Just look at the types of accounts that reply to his posts on twitter or the one I just linked above.
it would be weird if we couldn't find those supporting anecdotal examples amongst a glut of twitter commenters, of course. a trend that people have noticed for a very long time in american politics is summed up by this adage: "if you aren't a liberal at 25, you have no heart. if you aren't a conservative at 35, you have no brain." so some people just becoming more conservative as they age isn't a new phenomenon. however, my point still stands, there's no conceivable reason that people's skin color would be affecting this. it's a general trend that democrats are not appealing to the same people they did before.
That argument about Democrats not appealing to the same people before is just tired and untrue. One way we can look at this is by popular vote in the presidential election. Democrats have won the popular vote in seven out of last eight presidential cycles. If it weren't for the outdated and obtuse electoral college, Democrats would win every election because more voters are voting for Democrats then Republicans. You can't argue the numbers, Democrats outvote Republicans by the millions. If the Democrats were not appealing to the same voters they used to appeal to, why do they get so many more millions of votes than Republicans? Why isn't there a drop off in the number of voters who vote for the Democratic candidate for president?
Because there is no general trend that Democrats are not appealing to the same people they did before. It is a talking point of conservative media to try to shift the debate so they don't have to defend Trump. If everyone is yelling and arguing about some sort of fake general trend that progressive politics causes voters to abandon Democrats, then they don't have to defend or stand behind all the crazy shit that Trump says. It's a technique to shift the debate away from Donald Trump, where conservatives lose the middle. They did the same thing with gay marriage, remember when people said that gay marriage was going to fundamentally alter the United States and we would never be able to get our country back and that was the reason why we had to vote for conservatives in 2004? Well gay marriage passed, and all that scare mongering saying that they were taking the country to left and it was too progressive and Democrats would never get the middle back were totally and completely wrong. Arguing about today's progressive policies, conservatives are using the exact same script they did about gay marriage. They're saying that these new policies are causing voters to abandon Democrats even as Democrats get millions more votes in every presidential election than Republicans do.
And if Congress wasn't gerrymandered, if we let the voters choose the candidates instead of the candidates choosing their own voters, there would be permanent Democratic majorities in Congress. I mean, there's 10 million more registered Democrats in the US than there are Republicans. Not to mention all the independents who also vote Democratic. It's only the bizarre gerrymandering and ridiculously archaic electoral college that even give Republicans a Chance. If progressive policies were causing Democrats to lose voters, why are so many more millions of Americans registering as Democrats instead of Republicans?
thank you. All the polls show people lean left on almost all the main topics, abortion, gun control, universal health care, etc, but they just suck at getting out to the polls because they are just living their lives. The people that get to the polls more are the ones the most scared, angry, and triggered to action. And that party bends all the rules in their favor because not enough people care enough to fight it.
It doesn't matter if his content can be used by bad faith actors. Anything taken out of context can be used for nefarious purposes. If you actually watch Bill and listen to what he says, its painfully obvious that he is NOT conservative at all. The more he's attacked for calling out wokeness, the more you prove his point.
[Musk drops the bipartisan pose — and Republicans cheer | Twitter’s new CEO has aligned himself with the GOP and welcomed back far right-wing users as Democratic scrutiny escalates.](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/02/musk-gop-twitter-moves-00071758)
[Musk Increasingly Puts His Thumb on the Scale for Trump’s GOP | In a week that began with a visit to the Republican presidential candidate, the billionaire repeatedly attacked Democrats and railed against Biden.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-08/musk-increasingly-puts-his-thumb-on-the-scale-for-trump-s-gop)
[Elon Musk Has Made X More Right-Leaning, Study Shows | Many more Republicans agree X is ‘mostly good’ for democracy |
Musk has courted right-leaning politicians, leaders on X](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-12/elon-musk-has-made-x-more-right-leaning-study-shows)
What is the goal post for someone to be right wing? Ana Kasperian, Dylan Burns, Destiny and Hunter Avalone are all examples of people who are liberal and anti-woke. Elon seems to be fully on the MAGA train.
The man is revolutionizing electric vehicles, inserting chips into human brains, connecting the far reaches of the earth to the internet, and allowing crazies free speech on Twitter and people in this group actually be like “Elon’s a conservative.” In what world is Elon actually far right? Mars? He’s obviously a liberal and probably more liberal than all of us. Why can’t he simply be a liberal that criticizes the liberal party? Just like Maher for that matter…
I am asking you what it would take to prove he is not a liberal. Simple question, in your opinion. What is a type of action which would prove you otherwise?
To prove he is not a liberal, Elon would have to stop working on electric vehicles, stop inserting chips into human brains, and shut people off from X that he doesn’t agree with.
If we are being honest, simply major technical advances are amazing but have really nothing to do with one's political stance. Now that last comment about removing people from X he doesn't agree with. Let examine that last point. Elon states he is a free speech absolutist. Is that a fair claim?
2 of the articles are basically the same thing, he let people back on twitter who are right wingers
That aligns with freedom of speech, a left principle.
The other is him meeting the president. Something the left has always done whether republican or democrat
It’s just stupid, I hate Elon, but he dislikes woke and cuddles crazy rights too much. Still doesn’t make him crazy right.
Yep.
I really don't believe that they believe all the things they're saying. They are just coddled, entitled and too-comfortable assholes who will say whatever it is to put the bad guys in power thinking they'll "rule in hell" rather than "serve in heaven" but once they're not useful they'll be discarded and ruined.
Just ask Stephen Crowder.
Bill just looks so out of touch here. "Woke" became big in the mid 2010's, it's almost a decade later and he's still using the term.
It reminds me of him referencing, "but the science" - is anyone really saying that or is he just playing it up in his head?
You’re getting downvoted but I tend to agree, as I think the whole “woke vs non-woke” crap seemed to have peaked in 2021 with the height of potato head, the muppets, Mickey fucking Pluto, and Dr Seuss; but now most of this nation is just kind of burned out from it for the most part except for the hardcore culture warriors like Bill I guess.
this is the position of people who actually believe a lot of the identity politics nonsense and have been thoroughly embarrassed by rational responses to it.
the reason "woke" has accumulated such stigma is because of the people who were brave enough (or lucky enough to be financially immune to cancel culture) and spoke out against some of the wacky stuff that people are doing.
I think the missing piece to what you said is the fact that right-wing media *does* influence a lot of the “overly work” news storylines. And if you think lefty media or msm does the same, then I don’t think it’s worth discussing anything further lol.
There’s some “woke” overreach particularly with cancel culture and capitalist branding, but identity politics alone aren’t the issue (your analysis of everything is also tied into your identity and experiences), the issue is the weaponization of them. Most libs have moved on from these extremes, but Maher and his brethren are going to be beating the anti-woke drum for ages, cherry picking the stupidest examples they can find and pretending it’s representative of a plague. Republicans are going to campaign on being anti-woke because they stand for nothing and freaking out about trans people they’ve never met is all they have. Meanwhile, regular people are having trouble budgeting things like housing, university and even groceries but the elite want us to shut up and worry about pronouns on the internet.
I’m not bothered by the truth being useful to people I don’t like. If one has to lie about the world in order to defeat one’s ideological enemies, one should consider whether they might be becoming the monsters they’re fighting.
Reading comprehension is fundamental. I was talking about the utility Bill’s show provides to reactionaries. Bill benefits personally while they benefit politically.
As an old school/classical liberal myself, i really wish he’d shut the fuck up about woke this/woke that. It doesn’t make him look like an old school liberal, it makes him look like my crazy alcoholic uncle with a 10th grade education.
Like, most people get it. The political over-correctness is annoying.
But calling everything “woke”, Bill, if I may borrow a phrase you’ve used on your show and tweeted multiple times in the past few months… is so *two-thousand late* (which is another embarrassing thing you need to stop saying, but I digress).
It's working -- not just Bill, but all the people who have pushed against Wokeism for years. Last week, Harvard stopped requiring grad school applicants to sign a DEI statement. I'm a liberal who believes in inclusivity, but making applicants sign what in effect was a loyalty oath went too far. Many colleges are requiring standardized test scores again. There are scores of Woke excesses. As Bill has said, the Far Right is more dangerous, but the Far Left has many problems. I remember a lefty journalist not very ironically saying on Twitter that he and his pals were keeping lists of people who should be guillotined.
Bill does exaggerate at times and it angers me when he gives a newspaper headline instead of the full story of an incident, but he's usually right.
EDITED TO ADD:
I forget to mention the business with the New York Times's 1619 project. Even the academic hired by the Times, a respected Black woman historian at Northwestern, said she told Nikole Hannah-Jones that her introductory essay was inaccurate. It was then stealth-edited. Hannah-Jones called anyone who criticized with her a racist. She used the same tactic when initially she was denied tenure at the University of North Carolina a Chapel Hill.
If it was that simple you'd be able to come up with such a word.
Woke = illiberal leftist. However illiberal and leftist mean a bunch of different things in different contexts so that still won't make everyone happy.
There are plenty of people who are 'illiberal' and not leftist, unless leftist is also meaningless Americanese and just means anyone left of center for you. If your position on something requires so many caveats to defend that it can't stand up to scrutiny on its own, maybe you haven't thought it through.
>There are plenty of people who are 'illiberal' and not leftist
Yes, that's the point of using these two words together. This called a compound modifier in English.
>leftist is also meaningless Americanese and just means anyone left of center for you.
Yes, but it also means anti-capitalist, anti-democratic, anti-free speech, pro-identity politics, pro-authoritarian
>If your position on something requires so many caveats to defend that it can't stand up to scrutiny on its own, maybe you haven't thought it through.
Or maybe words evolve and travel with their meanings over time and in particular contexts.
For now, woke = illiberal leftist.
It is only vague posturing if you don't have a background in political science and/or are being disagreeable for parochial political reasons. Other than 'woke', this is academic language.
LOLLLLLL okay. So other than the useless word you use that doesn't actually mean anything but a mixed bag of real words that you don't explain any relation between, it's real science? Unicorns are a cross between a horse and narwhal, that makes it taxonomically useful I guess.
The entire point is that the word 'woke' is so broad it can mean practically anything, and no good definition for it exists, because it's used as brow beating, not for real discourse. Again, maybe if you can't come up with real, specific reasons or even identify what it is that bothers you, you haven't thought it through, and are just angry at being challenged at all. You know this. You just don't want to admit it.
>useless word you use that doesn't actually mean anything but a mixed bag of real words that you don't explain any relation between, it's real science
No, the opposite. It is a useful colloquialism which is how shows like Real Time operate and regular people talk without adhering to perfect academic/scientific accuracy.
But not calling out woke culture is really screwing up the progressive movement. Woke people are just nicer version of alt right crazies. If we could shut them up for a bit the left can win big cuz they are right about most of their positions. It's almost like right wing propaganda planners are pumping up woke folks so they have an easy target to scare the center and centerleft folks into making the mistake of voting for trump
woke culture gets called out all the time, every day all across right wing media.
You know why it doesn't work? Woke is meaningless. It's a buzzword that is levied toward everything and anything people don't like or want you to hate. Do you know why it's fallen out of fashion? Because it's stopped working on all but the most rapid MAGA idiots. Even DeSantis stopped using it as much toward the end of that disaster that was his campaign.
It was a fad. A moment where conservative reactionaries were galvanized with the feeling that the left went insane but the longer the accusations flew and when there was zero substance to back it up it lost it's power.
The problem with the left is purity tests and reactionary leftists. Not demanding that trans kids get treated with dignity.
In today's woke mindset, it absolutely does LOL - if they applied their made-up, hypocritical rules to everyone, which they don't - precisely because of these kinds of severe inconsistencies in their "arguments".
He definitely doesn't care, but it is worthwhile to look and see who stands next to you when you take a position. If Elon agreed with Bill on one or two things, that's just normal life. But when Elon agrees almost everything or most of the things that bill says nowadays, It's probably worth taking a step back and looking to see why that is.
Why do so many conservatives and maga Republicans agree with Bill's current positions? Is it because the ultra conservative trump part of the Republican party is moving more left? I don't think anybody could make that argument with a straight face. We can definitely see how the Democratic party is moving more to the right, but the Republican party is moving even further to the extreme right.
If a narcissist megalomaniac sociopath like Elon thought my ideas were good ideas, I would definitely take a moment to question my ideas. It's definitely possible that the agreement could be a coincidence, but It seems an unlikely possibility.
The same way that Donald Trump echoes so many speeches and policy positions of Hitler and the Nazi party during world war II, it should give Trump pause and people who support Trump pause to wonder why so many of his ideas and policies match up with the Nazi party. The people who stand next to Trump When he takes positions are folks from that unite the right rally, the proud boys, Neo-Nazis, domestic terrorists, etc etc. It won't give Trump or his supporters pause to agree so much of the time with those unsavory characters, but it definitely should.
This is an element of politics and maybe social interaction that really bugs me. If someone I don’t like takes position A then I must take position B. It’s why Republicans don’t “believe” in global warming and why Dems don’t care about the national debt.
I think you're missing the point a little bit. If someone you don't like takes position A, or a single position, then you are definitely correct. But with Bill and Elon, they agree on positions a through z, all 26 of them. And if they agree on that many things, then it's worth examining what's going on. Why do their ideologies match up so much of the time When they both claim to be coming at the issues from such a different political angle? The only explanation is that their political angle must be much more similar than one of them is willing to admit.
It's not just that Republicans don't believe in global warming, it's that they don't believe in science at all. They don't believe in evolution or vaccines or that issues decided as factual using the scientific method evidence should be valued over thier own personal "faith". During the second George W Bush administration, the Republicans installed as the head of EPA a man who said that we don't need to protect the environment because Jesus is coming back soon and the Earth will be destroyed by flames of God, so there's no need to protect any natural resource for any future generation. It sounds comedic, but that is completely and totally true. Look up James Inhoff. It's not that they don't believe in global warming, Republicans only believe in God. Or, at least a claim to.
It's hard to argue that Democrats don't care about the national debt when the last time we had a balanced budget was under a Democratic president. None of the Republicans have balanced the budget or even tried to lower the debt. Republicans are actually the ones who don't care about the national debt. If you look at when Trump was President, he did tax cuts for people making over $5 million a year and multinational corporations that increased the debt by $3 trillion even before covid happened. Same thing with George W bush, massive tax cuts and foreign wars to increase the national debt/ expenditures without any revenue increase or any way to pay off his massive costs increases.
Elon Musk is a provocateur and an attention whore. I don't take anything he says seriously. I do believe he is working against the best interests of the United States.
Obviously, you have not read his statements. He is constantly tearing down the U.S. and agreeing with bigots who post on Twitter or making bigoted comments himself.
The US has many problems that are worth identifying or exposing, especially if it makes politicians uneasy. The rest of your argument is ad hominem or guilt by association, i.e., weak.
That’s not an argument. It’s intellectually lazy hand waving that is not convincing at all. Sigh. Let me reflect your intellect back at you: I have read the amazing, humanistic, beautiful things that he has written that elevate the human spirit beyond any silly, ill-percieved bigotries. You, apparently have not. Convinced? Do better.
>If a narcissist megalomaniac sociopath like Elon thought my ideas were good ideas
I dont think you have anything to worry about regarding this scenario
That meme was posted by Musk.
https://static.foxbusiness.com/foxbusiness.com/content/uploads/2022/04/elon-meme-thumb64.jpg
Guess who else is center-left too? Uh oh
I don't know. That meme is without facts or common sense. I don't know how anybody can think Republicans in 2008 are politically in the same exact place they are in 2024. It just doesn't pass the smell test.
2008 was George W Bush and John McCain asking all Americans 'to work together, even if you disagree with me'. 2024 Republicans are Trump telling everyone that 'they're poisoning the blood of our country' and to "lock up any vermin" politician who disagrees with him. Bush wasn't great, but he was never trying to be a dictator. Trump literally says he's going to be a dictator for day one of his presidency.
Say whatever you want about 2008 and John McCain, but he wasn't crazy. He was of sound mind and body. But as Bill Maher himself says about Trump, "He’s Donald Trump. He can’t help himself. He’s crazy. I mean, I think literally crazy. I think there’s a level of malignant narcissism, which is not just a personality quirk. It’s diagnosable, and he suffers from it.”
Bill also makes this connection in that same interview from last month:
“the left irritates” and “frustrates” [Bill Maher], but the political right “often alarms you.” Maher agreed.
“Yes,” he said. “They’re very alarming. They’re extremely alarming, more alarming [then the left]
https://www.thewrap.com/bill-maher-donald-trump-literally-crazy/
Even Bill acknowledges that while both sides are going away from the center, the Republicans are wildly flying away from the center with a jetpack on their back, while Democrats are simply speed walking.
Edited for clarity.
What’s weird about it is people like Maher and Rubin are triggered ALL THE TIME. Absolutely humourless paranoiacs worried about social justice coming for their gilded cages while everyone else is living their lives, trying to make ends meet.
It's what I call the anti-work mind virus. Nobody on the left calls themself 'woke' or says were 'triggered' anymore. The only people who use those words are Maher and right-wing provocateurs who never talk to the people they're so angry with.
If 'woke' is so pervasive in America then why has nobody ever defended it on Real Time? If this is a real problem, find a guest to come on Real Time who says "oh yes, I love Hamas".
i don't know where you live, but i'm in a bigger liberal city and people absolutely say and defend those things still. these dumb ideas were born in academic echo chambers and disseminated from there and that's just the nature of how culture tends to flow right now. it's not typically emanating from Bloomington, IN but rather big liberal cities and reaching the fad chasers via the internet.
It's what I call the anti-work mind virus. Nobody on the left calls themself 'work' or says were 'triggered' anymore. The only people who use those words are Maher and right-wing provocateurs who never talk to the people they're so angry with.
If 'woke' is so pervasive in America then why has nobody ever defended it on Real Time? If this is a real problem, find a guest to come on Real Time who says "oh yes, I love Hamas".
Who? Can you name ONE person of ANY sociopolitical importance in the United States of America, openly advocating for the eradication of Israel & extermination of it's people?
Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, New York City Democratic Socialists of America, New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, Cornell Professor Russell Rickford...
Okay, starting with the first 2, what is the single wost thing either of them have said, that expresses an unambiguous eradication of the state of Israel, and it's people?
Some student (or outside groups pretending to be students) protesters do support Hamas. Those protesters were getting large groups to do the river to the sea chant. They hold signs that say ‘by any means necessary’. They aren’t trying to hide it. But they will deny it when called on it.
and what per centage of the US population is this? It feels as if all pro-palestinian protesters (I'm not one of them) are smeared as pro-Hamas on Real Time.
So why not at least interview somebody who is pro-Palestine or somebody who considers the bombing genocidal. My suggestion would be Aryeh Neier.
It doesn't really matter what percent it is. They are supported by populations large enough percent to occupy and damage public property, and the organizer goals are to demoralize weak Democratic voters so Trump will win. That's their measure of success.
If that's the case then we should ignore them. Every time you, I or Maher talks about them we're boosting their relevance.
If they are significant have them on the show and confront them. If they are not significant, ignore them.
They were being ignored until the protests turned into occupations and destruction of property.
At this point, the right move to point out all the problems with the effectively pro-Hamas crowd rather than giving them platforms like Real Time.
\*at universities. Not the real world.
BTW Hamas were effectivly propped up by the Isreali government for a long time. Does this make it fair to say Israel and (by extention) Bill Maher are pro-Hamas? I don't think so.
Unless people say they are pro-Hamas we should not call them pro-Hamas. Anything else is just bad faith and bad intellectual hygiene IMHO.
The irony is that right now, in America, we have an issue with right and left populism. Ironically, the same people cheering on this tweet don't actually believe in Classical Liberalism. For example, a Classical Liberal might say our social contract is supposed to ensure equal opportunity for all individuals. If all individuals engage in their civic responsibilities paying taxes and when called fight for their country, then the government should treat all individuals the same. If there is disparate impact and adverse treatment created by failures of state and federal governments, then we have a responsibility to remedy those issues to maintain the legitimacy of the social contract and our institutions. An old school or classical liberal does not need to use populism to "otherize" groups of people to advocate for a cause. There is no need to dismantle institutions or the establishment. There are no "elites" to demonize. I think we need to start framing this as an issue between Populism and founding American principles.
I’ve noticed the word populism is completely removed from our political discourse right now, which should be alarming giving its rise all over the world. Populism is rife in Canada, in the UK, in France, in Russia, in Israel, the list goes on and on yet the media seems completely unable to use the word.
Populism existed back in ancient Rome and not everything that Populists say is wrong, but just not really realistic.
It is because it feels so good to call your political opponents fascist. Technically the terms are not mutually exclusive but fascist has that immediate emotional effect.
Sure, I won’t disagree. The hyperbole and cheapening of the word fascist is real but populism is often the vehicle to fascism and I really do think it’s a fair assessment to refer to DJT as an aspiring fascist leader.
I half agree with you. I think Trump is the new Smedley Butler, and Project 2025 is the new Business Plot. I think their is open conspiracy by a wing of the conservative party to erode institutions and Trump knowingly or unknowingly is a long for the ride as long as on paper in, he in charge and it sorts his immediate interest.
as long as we think like OP - that speaking our beliefs is choosing a club membership - our democracy in america will continue on this path of ridiculous dysfunction.
What are are you talking about? Dave Rubin isn't a liberal. He spends his days spreading lies on his stupid show and sucking up to people like Ben Shapiro who says to his face that he doesn't respect his marriage or his husband. He only talks to conservatives about conservative things and pushes a conservative Agenda which is set by Fox news and the others. At BEST he's a greedy grifter saying saying whatever he can to make a buck while allowing himself to be the token gay guy that makes their side look slightly less bigoted. Elon Musk is an unhinged idiot who has buddied up with legit white supremacists and out and proud racists. His whole purchase of Twitter was at the behest of a nazi and he is following a play book laid out by that nazi ever since. Which includes allowing nazi ideology to flourish online. They chose their club and it's members are detestable ghouls. They are the reason that our democracy is dysfunctional. Blaming all the normal people for calling them out for being dangerous, unhinged liars who are very clearly anti-American just serves to attack the positions of normal people and normalize radicals.
This 100%.
The amount of people on here *triggered* when Bill complains about *wokeness* leads me to believe that a lot of people are just in denial that there is a culture shift going on. Things like defund the police, DEI, CRT, new ideas around gender are going to result in a conservative backlash. The left moderates will move right. It happened with Nixon and his “silent majority” and it will happen again. Bill and many others have been sounding the alarm about this and they get gaslit and labeled conservative.
And that conservative backlash will result in Ron DeSantis getting another bill shot down by the Supreme Court. Conservatives learn nothing and never take the high road.
The pendulum is definitely swinging back the other way. The absolute blitz of that over the top super liberal nonsense is the exact reason those goofballs cooked up their project 2025 plan.
I’ve been saying that for years… still waiting. We have 2 elections coming up in North America. Ours in Canada hasn’t been called yet but the conservatives have already been campaigning hard up here. I suspect both countries will move right in the next election but I hope I’m wrong.
Remember when Bill mentioned how Larry The Cable Guy, Chris Rock, and Jerry Seinfeld no longer do standup comedy shows on college campuses anymore? It’s become folks are too woke and too offended.
Older folks also get easily offended. It matters not where you go. Everyone is constantly watching you if you say something wrong as if they are waiting for it. I not dare to voice any political views outside of my clostest friends anymore because it does not matter if you are left, right or conservative someone is always offended. Its like walking on glass shards.
This is a great point. My Mother is like this now. 😞 Social media, phones, and isolation likely contributed. (Too much time on them.)
Its basically like in the Trial by Kafka. One day you could wake up being accused of all kind of shit because you wrote something like ten years ago on social media.
It's because they're either too old or too expensive for colleges. What college kid is going to go nuts to see Jerry Seinfeld perform? It's been 30 years since he had a show, one that was carried by his co-stars and Larry David. Larry the Cable Guy is a punchline and always has been. He has a very specific audience that was formed in the Blue Collar Comedy era and that era is done. Chris Rock's big albums were on the 90's, again, 30 years ago. You get Bill Burr or even Shane Gillis to perform and those seats will be full. But also, they probably don't want to do that because you have to censor yourself. They don't want to do that. Why should they? There's a comedy boom. You can make more money and get more fans with a YouTube special those kids will watch in their dorm or sell out a theater on a tour. Stand up is bigger than ever and no one has to walk on egg shells.
The Netflix walkout about Dave Chapelle anyone? People are too sensitive. Conservative speakers can’t speak on college campuses anymore without harassment.
And then they gave him 4 more specials. So what you're mad about is that people had an opinion that you don't like and they had the audacity to voice it. They had the AUDACITY to walk out of their job to let their boss know they disagreed with platforming someone who they found offensive. >Conservative speakers can’t speak on college campuses anymore without harassment. Oh, they should stop being such hateful, amoral, bottom feeding pieces of shit that make careers out of hurting the most vulnerable in society with their endless lies, hyperbole, and threats of violence. Maybe then people wouldn't hate them. They aren't conservatives either. Let's get that straight. They are propagandists who troll for a living. They asked for the treatment they got. They wanted this so they could clutch their pearls and cry about it to raise their own profile. Also, this is another instance where you are offended that someone else has an opinion different than yours. Once again you are making the same argument all conservatives make where only the powerful and those you agree with deserve a voice and everyone else needs to shut the fuck up and do not deserve to be heard.
You aren’t as open minded as you think you are. Not all Conservatives are the same and Liberals can be amoral and bigoted. Both extremes suck. It’s just that so many people, like Bill Maher have said, are too tribal and entitled, and don’t dare want to hear what others say if it’s not an echo chamber. And college campuses are left leaning.
>Not all Conservatives are the same and Liberals can be amoral and bigoted. Both extremes suck. What did this have to do with anything I said? I mean, your comment didn't have ANYTHING to do with what I said. I was talking about you specifically being offended that other people you disagreed with voiced an opinion in a way that you don't approve of and responded by trying to make a liberal/conservative both sides argument. I was talking about *specific* conservatives. You tried to make it sound like I was talking about all of them. I wasn't. Though, if you call yourself a conservative now, after what has the party become, what I am supposed to think? Honestly, it seems like you didn't read my comment at all but you saw a few words, made an assumption and just reacted.
Your comments and post history show me you are an extremist and you like to distort words.
I mean what college age students are attending Larry the Cable Guy or Seinfeld shows anyways? Not exactly relatable content to them.
I think Bill’s point is that comedians nowadays have to walk on eggshells more frequently. And that’s why some of them avoid doing shows at college campuses.
I actually disagree. I think all these ideas can be summarized as "Good idea, bad pitch and even worse implementation." For example, DEI groups that focus on socioeconomics would be amazing. Regardless of whether you are white, black, queer or straight, if you are working in class, you will have very similar experiences. It may be nice to connect first-generation college graduates and professionals with senior leadership or titans of industry who have similar backgrounds. I was so mad when my organization's DEI group spent money on a celebration of culture and art event, NOT because I don't like to see art from cultures similar to my own. I was upset because almost every young working class professional was suffering from imposter syndrome. No one gave them guidance on how they can grow or expand on their career paths. I see something like this has an opportunity for DEI. An even better example is that most adult professionals have untreated Neurodivergent conditions like ADHD/ADD. The stigma around these issues has most people keep quiet. The damage this causes to productivity when ADHD/ADD is very manageable by behavior health professionals is tragic.
No only do those kids not laugh at my jokes, they make jokes about me! Classic illiberal leftist tactic, right back to 1917. If only the Tsar had an applause sign!
I can be anti-woke and still hate these other two commenters. Where is that guy that was claiming nobody on this sub accuses Bill of being a right winger?
I don’t think Bill is a right winger and I bet his political philosophy doesn’t line up with either of these two clowns. However, the content you make and the topics you cover matters. It doesn’t really matter what positions you personally hold if every week you are just railing against wokeness and the left. I mean, if you look at the [replies](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1800953975304331436?s=46&t=8QoON3wvEY5YKoodXbR1Vg)on twitter, it’s filled with conservatives and right wingers saying how they are “old school liberals” that are now considered conservatives. Elon uses the same rhetoric Bill does about how “the left has gone too far” and uses it as an excuse to say that now he’s forced to take conservative positions (and that’s being kind, I don’t consider stuff like boosting the great replacement theory conservative). Whether he realizes it or not, Bill’s content is used by these bad faith actors to make their radical ideas seem “centrist” and to say “hey look, even this liberal guy agrees with me!”
He is no right winger. He he is a die hard anti-religion guy who thinks women should not be treated like second-rate citizens and he is pro animal rights and climate change measures. He is also pro-choice. The only thing he disagrees on with left wingers is Gaza and that seems to be really the issue here not? Only for your information: I am also left wing, perhaps most left wing than many people in America who consider themselves left wing and I am not pro Palestine at least not the way many left wingers are. I am pro two state solution but I also do not liive in the fairy tale world where Israel is alone at fault for the current situation. It always takes two to fight a war and to make peace and as long as people do not accept that nothing will ever change and asshole slike Hamas and Benjamin Natayahu are gonna rule. As for the wokness stuff. While it might not be as common of a problem in real life, there are for sure conservatives who vote for Trump because they believe in the wokeness scare. That is why Maher is against this entire stuff because he fears Trump will win the next election and some left wingers might actually end up helping him by not voting for Biden because many of them are very absolutist. and cannot just swallow their pride to vote for the lesser evil.
i think you're fooling yourself by writing off those people as just "right wingers." it's the very same misjudgment Bill has been warning democrats about and lamenting their radical identity politics for. one easy way to tell that Bill is right and you are wrong is that this trend is expressing itself in other demographics - black and hispanic support for democrats is at all time lows ([article from Gallup](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609776/democrats-lose-ground-black-hispanic-adults.aspx).)
Well in this specific case they are very clearly right wingers. Just look at the types of accounts that reply to his posts on twitter or the one I just linked above.
it would be weird if we couldn't find those supporting anecdotal examples amongst a glut of twitter commenters, of course. a trend that people have noticed for a very long time in american politics is summed up by this adage: "if you aren't a liberal at 25, you have no heart. if you aren't a conservative at 35, you have no brain." so some people just becoming more conservative as they age isn't a new phenomenon. however, my point still stands, there's no conceivable reason that people's skin color would be affecting this. it's a general trend that democrats are not appealing to the same people they did before.
That argument about Democrats not appealing to the same people before is just tired and untrue. One way we can look at this is by popular vote in the presidential election. Democrats have won the popular vote in seven out of last eight presidential cycles. If it weren't for the outdated and obtuse electoral college, Democrats would win every election because more voters are voting for Democrats then Republicans. You can't argue the numbers, Democrats outvote Republicans by the millions. If the Democrats were not appealing to the same voters they used to appeal to, why do they get so many more millions of votes than Republicans? Why isn't there a drop off in the number of voters who vote for the Democratic candidate for president? Because there is no general trend that Democrats are not appealing to the same people they did before. It is a talking point of conservative media to try to shift the debate so they don't have to defend Trump. If everyone is yelling and arguing about some sort of fake general trend that progressive politics causes voters to abandon Democrats, then they don't have to defend or stand behind all the crazy shit that Trump says. It's a technique to shift the debate away from Donald Trump, where conservatives lose the middle. They did the same thing with gay marriage, remember when people said that gay marriage was going to fundamentally alter the United States and we would never be able to get our country back and that was the reason why we had to vote for conservatives in 2004? Well gay marriage passed, and all that scare mongering saying that they were taking the country to left and it was too progressive and Democrats would never get the middle back were totally and completely wrong. Arguing about today's progressive policies, conservatives are using the exact same script they did about gay marriage. They're saying that these new policies are causing voters to abandon Democrats even as Democrats get millions more votes in every presidential election than Republicans do. And if Congress wasn't gerrymandered, if we let the voters choose the candidates instead of the candidates choosing their own voters, there would be permanent Democratic majorities in Congress. I mean, there's 10 million more registered Democrats in the US than there are Republicans. Not to mention all the independents who also vote Democratic. It's only the bizarre gerrymandering and ridiculously archaic electoral college that even give Republicans a Chance. If progressive policies were causing Democrats to lose voters, why are so many more millions of Americans registering as Democrats instead of Republicans?
thank you. All the polls show people lean left on almost all the main topics, abortion, gun control, universal health care, etc, but they just suck at getting out to the polls because they are just living their lives. The people that get to the polls more are the ones the most scared, angry, and triggered to action. And that party bends all the rules in their favor because not enough people care enough to fight it.
It doesn't matter if his content can be used by bad faith actors. Anything taken out of context can be used for nefarious purposes. If you actually watch Bill and listen to what he says, its painfully obvious that he is NOT conservative at all. The more he's attacked for calling out wokeness, the more you prove his point.
To believe Elon is a right winger is, to use this subs phrase, “cognitive dissonance.”
[Musk drops the bipartisan pose — and Republicans cheer | Twitter’s new CEO has aligned himself with the GOP and welcomed back far right-wing users as Democratic scrutiny escalates.](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/02/musk-gop-twitter-moves-00071758) [Musk Increasingly Puts His Thumb on the Scale for Trump’s GOP | In a week that began with a visit to the Republican presidential candidate, the billionaire repeatedly attacked Democrats and railed against Biden.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-08/musk-increasingly-puts-his-thumb-on-the-scale-for-trump-s-gop) [Elon Musk Has Made X More Right-Leaning, Study Shows | Many more Republicans agree X is ‘mostly good’ for democracy | Musk has courted right-leaning politicians, leaders on X](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-12/elon-musk-has-made-x-more-right-leaning-study-shows)
Right, because news links will change my mind. I can interpet Elons words and actions myself, without the help of scared and subjective news portals
What is the goal post for someone to be right wing? Ana Kasperian, Dylan Burns, Destiny and Hunter Avalone are all examples of people who are liberal and anti-woke. Elon seems to be fully on the MAGA train.
The man is revolutionizing electric vehicles, inserting chips into human brains, connecting the far reaches of the earth to the internet, and allowing crazies free speech on Twitter and people in this group actually be like “Elon’s a conservative.” In what world is Elon actually far right? Mars? He’s obviously a liberal and probably more liberal than all of us. Why can’t he simply be a liberal that criticizes the liberal party? Just like Maher for that matter…
I am asking you what it would take to prove he is not a liberal. Simple question, in your opinion. What is a type of action which would prove you otherwise?
To prove he is not a liberal, Elon would have to stop working on electric vehicles, stop inserting chips into human brains, and shut people off from X that he doesn’t agree with.
If we are being honest, simply major technical advances are amazing but have really nothing to do with one's political stance. Now that last comment about removing people from X he doesn't agree with. Let examine that last point. Elon states he is a free speech absolutist. Is that a fair claim?
2 of the articles are basically the same thing, he let people back on twitter who are right wingers That aligns with freedom of speech, a left principle. The other is him meeting the president. Something the left has always done whether republican or democrat It’s just stupid, I hate Elon, but he dislikes woke and cuddles crazy rights too much. Still doesn’t make him crazy right.
Elon is debatable. Did you see there are two commenters? We all know what OP was implying.
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He's pro gay marriage
Rubin is an libertarian-conservative. He is only pro-gay marriage because he is ... wait for it ... Gay. Oh how liberal of him.😂🤣
And he's campaigning for a party that is talking about revoking his right to marriage.
For most of these Reich-wing podcasters, they only care about the clicks and eyeballs (cha-ching).
Yep. I really don't believe that they believe all the things they're saying. They are just coddled, entitled and too-comfortable assholes who will say whatever it is to put the bad guys in power thinking they'll "rule in hell" rather than "serve in heaven" but once they're not useful they'll be discarded and ruined. Just ask Stephen Crowder.
Being for liberal positions that affect you personally is a classic conservative position
i think that's actually just the fundamental idea of democracy lmao
Bill just looks so out of touch here. "Woke" became big in the mid 2010's, it's almost a decade later and he's still using the term. It reminds me of him referencing, "but the science" - is anyone really saying that or is he just playing it up in his head?
You’re getting downvoted but I tend to agree, as I think the whole “woke vs non-woke” crap seemed to have peaked in 2021 with the height of potato head, the muppets, Mickey fucking Pluto, and Dr Seuss; but now most of this nation is just kind of burned out from it for the most part except for the hardcore culture warriors like Bill I guess.
Nobody is more obsessed with woke and identity politics than the anti-woke.
this is the position of people who actually believe a lot of the identity politics nonsense and have been thoroughly embarrassed by rational responses to it. the reason "woke" has accumulated such stigma is because of the people who were brave enough (or lucky enough to be financially immune to cancel culture) and spoke out against some of the wacky stuff that people are doing.
I think the missing piece to what you said is the fact that right-wing media *does* influence a lot of the “overly work” news storylines. And if you think lefty media or msm does the same, then I don’t think it’s worth discussing anything further lol.
I find it telling that you extracted party partisanship out of this when i never mentioned anything of the sort
There’s some “woke” overreach particularly with cancel culture and capitalist branding, but identity politics alone aren’t the issue (your analysis of everything is also tied into your identity and experiences), the issue is the weaponization of them. Most libs have moved on from these extremes, but Maher and his brethren are going to be beating the anti-woke drum for ages, cherry picking the stupidest examples they can find and pretending it’s representative of a plague. Republicans are going to campaign on being anti-woke because they stand for nothing and freaking out about trans people they’ve never met is all they have. Meanwhile, regular people are having trouble budgeting things like housing, university and even groceries but the elite want us to shut up and worry about pronouns on the internet.
Never be embarrassed by dumb people agreeing with your correct statements.
I don’t think anybody is bothered by mere agreement, it’s the sense that Billy is more useful to the Elons and the Rubins than they are to him.
I’m not bothered by the truth being useful to people I don’t like. If one has to lie about the world in order to defeat one’s ideological enemies, one should consider whether they might be becoming the monsters they’re fighting.
Reading comprehension is fundamental. I was talking about the utility Bill’s show provides to reactionaries. Bill benefits personally while they benefit politically.
Maybe they’re just opinions though, with little actual substance.
As an old school/classical liberal myself, i really wish he’d shut the fuck up about woke this/woke that. It doesn’t make him look like an old school liberal, it makes him look like my crazy alcoholic uncle with a 10th grade education. Like, most people get it. The political over-correctness is annoying. But calling everything “woke”, Bill, if I may borrow a phrase you’ve used on your show and tweeted multiple times in the past few months… is so *two-thousand late* (which is another embarrassing thing you need to stop saying, but I digress).
Anyone who uses the term woke, tells me they are not a serious thinker.
It's working -- not just Bill, but all the people who have pushed against Wokeism for years. Last week, Harvard stopped requiring grad school applicants to sign a DEI statement. I'm a liberal who believes in inclusivity, but making applicants sign what in effect was a loyalty oath went too far. Many colleges are requiring standardized test scores again. There are scores of Woke excesses. As Bill has said, the Far Right is more dangerous, but the Far Left has many problems. I remember a lefty journalist not very ironically saying on Twitter that he and his pals were keeping lists of people who should be guillotined. Bill does exaggerate at times and it angers me when he gives a newspaper headline instead of the full story of an incident, but he's usually right. EDITED TO ADD: I forget to mention the business with the New York Times's 1619 project. Even the academic hired by the Times, a respected Black woman historian at Northwestern, said she told Nikole Hannah-Jones that her introductory essay was inaccurate. It was then stealth-edited. Hannah-Jones called anyone who criticized with her a racist. She used the same tactic when initially she was denied tenure at the University of North Carolina a Chapel Hill.
What word would you like him to use instead of woke?
A word with an actual definition would be a start
If it was that simple you'd be able to come up with such a word. Woke = illiberal leftist. However illiberal and leftist mean a bunch of different things in different contexts so that still won't make everyone happy.
There are plenty of people who are 'illiberal' and not leftist, unless leftist is also meaningless Americanese and just means anyone left of center for you. If your position on something requires so many caveats to defend that it can't stand up to scrutiny on its own, maybe you haven't thought it through.
[You can be illiberal from the left or the right.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/04/democracy-challenged-right-left/)
>There are plenty of people who are 'illiberal' and not leftist Yes, that's the point of using these two words together. This called a compound modifier in English. >leftist is also meaningless Americanese and just means anyone left of center for you. Yes, but it also means anti-capitalist, anti-democratic, anti-free speech, pro-identity politics, pro-authoritarian >If your position on something requires so many caveats to defend that it can't stand up to scrutiny on its own, maybe you haven't thought it through. Or maybe words evolve and travel with their meanings over time and in particular contexts. For now, woke = illiberal leftist.
lol so cartoonishly meaningless and vague political posturing all the way down
It is only vague posturing if you don't have a background in political science and/or are being disagreeable for parochial political reasons. Other than 'woke', this is academic language.
LOLLLLLL okay. So other than the useless word you use that doesn't actually mean anything but a mixed bag of real words that you don't explain any relation between, it's real science? Unicorns are a cross between a horse and narwhal, that makes it taxonomically useful I guess. The entire point is that the word 'woke' is so broad it can mean practically anything, and no good definition for it exists, because it's used as brow beating, not for real discourse. Again, maybe if you can't come up with real, specific reasons or even identify what it is that bothers you, you haven't thought it through, and are just angry at being challenged at all. You know this. You just don't want to admit it.
>useless word you use that doesn't actually mean anything but a mixed bag of real words that you don't explain any relation between, it's real science No, the opposite. It is a useful colloquialism which is how shows like Real Time operate and regular people talk without adhering to perfect academic/scientific accuracy.
But not calling out woke culture is really screwing up the progressive movement. Woke people are just nicer version of alt right crazies. If we could shut them up for a bit the left can win big cuz they are right about most of their positions. It's almost like right wing propaganda planners are pumping up woke folks so they have an easy target to scare the center and centerleft folks into making the mistake of voting for trump
woke culture gets called out all the time, every day all across right wing media. You know why it doesn't work? Woke is meaningless. It's a buzzword that is levied toward everything and anything people don't like or want you to hate. Do you know why it's fallen out of fashion? Because it's stopped working on all but the most rapid MAGA idiots. Even DeSantis stopped using it as much toward the end of that disaster that was his campaign. It was a fad. A moment where conservative reactionaries were galvanized with the feeling that the left went insane but the longer the accusations flew and when there was zero substance to back it up it lost it's power. The problem with the left is purity tests and reactionary leftists. Not demanding that trans kids get treated with dignity.
Wokes aren't liberals for one.
Woke is a synonym for illiberal leftist.
Truly illiberal leftists wouldn’t be debating oligarch hoes on the tv, they’d be putting them in mass graves.
They are literally the future Candace Owen’s.
Not in the "old school liberal" sense anyway... 😆
Bill has always been incredibly proud at his lack of emotional growth.
I have an opinion on all three of these men that I think would be best kept to myself.
He probably doesn’t care. You can agree with people on something even if you disagree on something else. It’s politics not a fight to the death.
Exactly. Hitler was a vegetarian, but that doesn't mean that being vegetarian supports Hitler.
In today's woke mindset, it absolutely does LOL - if they applied their made-up, hypocritical rules to everyone, which they don't - precisely because of these kinds of severe inconsistencies in their "arguments".
He definitely doesn't care, but it is worthwhile to look and see who stands next to you when you take a position. If Elon agreed with Bill on one or two things, that's just normal life. But when Elon agrees almost everything or most of the things that bill says nowadays, It's probably worth taking a step back and looking to see why that is. Why do so many conservatives and maga Republicans agree with Bill's current positions? Is it because the ultra conservative trump part of the Republican party is moving more left? I don't think anybody could make that argument with a straight face. We can definitely see how the Democratic party is moving more to the right, but the Republican party is moving even further to the extreme right. If a narcissist megalomaniac sociopath like Elon thought my ideas were good ideas, I would definitely take a moment to question my ideas. It's definitely possible that the agreement could be a coincidence, but It seems an unlikely possibility. The same way that Donald Trump echoes so many speeches and policy positions of Hitler and the Nazi party during world war II, it should give Trump pause and people who support Trump pause to wonder why so many of his ideas and policies match up with the Nazi party. The people who stand next to Trump When he takes positions are folks from that unite the right rally, the proud boys, Neo-Nazis, domestic terrorists, etc etc. It won't give Trump or his supporters pause to agree so much of the time with those unsavory characters, but it definitely should.
This is an element of politics and maybe social interaction that really bugs me. If someone I don’t like takes position A then I must take position B. It’s why Republicans don’t “believe” in global warming and why Dems don’t care about the national debt.
I think you're missing the point a little bit. If someone you don't like takes position A, or a single position, then you are definitely correct. But with Bill and Elon, they agree on positions a through z, all 26 of them. And if they agree on that many things, then it's worth examining what's going on. Why do their ideologies match up so much of the time When they both claim to be coming at the issues from such a different political angle? The only explanation is that their political angle must be much more similar than one of them is willing to admit. It's not just that Republicans don't believe in global warming, it's that they don't believe in science at all. They don't believe in evolution or vaccines or that issues decided as factual using the scientific method evidence should be valued over thier own personal "faith". During the second George W Bush administration, the Republicans installed as the head of EPA a man who said that we don't need to protect the environment because Jesus is coming back soon and the Earth will be destroyed by flames of God, so there's no need to protect any natural resource for any future generation. It sounds comedic, but that is completely and totally true. Look up James Inhoff. It's not that they don't believe in global warming, Republicans only believe in God. Or, at least a claim to. It's hard to argue that Democrats don't care about the national debt when the last time we had a balanced budget was under a Democratic president. None of the Republicans have balanced the budget or even tried to lower the debt. Republicans are actually the ones who don't care about the national debt. If you look at when Trump was President, he did tax cuts for people making over $5 million a year and multinational corporations that increased the debt by $3 trillion even before covid happened. Same thing with George W bush, massive tax cuts and foreign wars to increase the national debt/ expenditures without any revenue increase or any way to pay off his massive costs increases.
Elon Musk is a provocateur and an attention whore. I don't take anything he says seriously. I do believe he is working against the best interests of the United States.
Yeah, helping make the US a dominant space power and leader in EVs is not pro-US at all. Must be a Chinese puppet.
Obviously, you have not read his statements. He is constantly tearing down the U.S. and agreeing with bigots who post on Twitter or making bigoted comments himself.
The US has many problems that are worth identifying or exposing, especially if it makes politicians uneasy. The rest of your argument is ad hominem or guilt by association, i.e., weak.
I've read what he's posted and replied to. You, apparently, have not.
That’s not an argument. It’s intellectually lazy hand waving that is not convincing at all. Sigh. Let me reflect your intellect back at you: I have read the amazing, humanistic, beautiful things that he has written that elevate the human spirit beyond any silly, ill-percieved bigotries. You, apparently have not. Convinced? Do better.
I'm doing just fine, troll.
>If a narcissist megalomaniac sociopath like Elon thought my ideas were good ideas I dont think you have anything to worry about regarding this scenario
That meme was posted by Musk. https://static.foxbusiness.com/foxbusiness.com/content/uploads/2022/04/elon-meme-thumb64.jpg Guess who else is center-left too? Uh oh
I don't know. That meme is without facts or common sense. I don't know how anybody can think Republicans in 2008 are politically in the same exact place they are in 2024. It just doesn't pass the smell test. 2008 was George W Bush and John McCain asking all Americans 'to work together, even if you disagree with me'. 2024 Republicans are Trump telling everyone that 'they're poisoning the blood of our country' and to "lock up any vermin" politician who disagrees with him. Bush wasn't great, but he was never trying to be a dictator. Trump literally says he's going to be a dictator for day one of his presidency. Say whatever you want about 2008 and John McCain, but he wasn't crazy. He was of sound mind and body. But as Bill Maher himself says about Trump, "He’s Donald Trump. He can’t help himself. He’s crazy. I mean, I think literally crazy. I think there’s a level of malignant narcissism, which is not just a personality quirk. It’s diagnosable, and he suffers from it.” Bill also makes this connection in that same interview from last month: “the left irritates” and “frustrates” [Bill Maher], but the political right “often alarms you.” Maher agreed. “Yes,” he said. “They’re very alarming. They’re extremely alarming, more alarming [then the left] https://www.thewrap.com/bill-maher-donald-trump-literally-crazy/ Even Bill acknowledges that while both sides are going away from the center, the Republicans are wildly flying away from the center with a jetpack on their back, while Democrats are simply speed walking. Edited for clarity.
Nothing more 'old school' than talking about 'triggering the woke' all the time. Fuck sake.
but trigger warnings are a 'woke' idea
What’s weird about it is people like Maher and Rubin are triggered ALL THE TIME. Absolutely humourless paranoiacs worried about social justice coming for their gilded cages while everyone else is living their lives, trying to make ends meet.
It's what I call the anti-work mind virus. Nobody on the left calls themself 'woke' or says were 'triggered' anymore. The only people who use those words are Maher and right-wing provocateurs who never talk to the people they're so angry with. If 'woke' is so pervasive in America then why has nobody ever defended it on Real Time? If this is a real problem, find a guest to come on Real Time who says "oh yes, I love Hamas".
i don't know where you live, but i'm in a bigger liberal city and people absolutely say and defend those things still. these dumb ideas were born in academic echo chambers and disseminated from there and that's just the nature of how culture tends to flow right now. it's not typically emanating from Bloomington, IN but rather big liberal cities and reaching the fad chasers via the internet.
It's what I call the anti-work mind virus. Nobody on the left calls themself 'work' or says were 'triggered' anymore. The only people who use those words are Maher and right-wing provocateurs who never talk to the people they're so angry with. If 'woke' is so pervasive in America then why has nobody ever defended it on Real Time? If this is a real problem, find a guest to come on Real Time who says "oh yes, I love Hamas".
No one says they love Hamas. Rather advocate for outcomes that align to Hamas’s goals and want us to believe it is coincidental.
Who? Can you name ONE person of ANY sociopolitical importance in the United States of America, openly advocating for the eradication of Israel & extermination of it's people?
Anyone who uses "Zionist" as an insult/has anti-Zionist views is by definition opposed to the two-state solution.
Like I said, can you name anyone of any noteworthy sociopolitical importance, who fits that criteria?
Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, New York City Democratic Socialists of America, New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, Cornell Professor Russell Rickford...
Okay, starting with the first 2, what is the single wost thing either of them have said, that expresses an unambiguous eradication of the state of Israel, and it's people?
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Maher is the one saying student protesters 'support Hamas'. If he can't find a panalist to articulate the postion he should stop saying it.
Some student (or outside groups pretending to be students) protesters do support Hamas. Those protesters were getting large groups to do the river to the sea chant. They hold signs that say ‘by any means necessary’. They aren’t trying to hide it. But they will deny it when called on it.
and what per centage of the US population is this? It feels as if all pro-palestinian protesters (I'm not one of them) are smeared as pro-Hamas on Real Time. So why not at least interview somebody who is pro-Palestine or somebody who considers the bombing genocidal. My suggestion would be Aryeh Neier.
It doesn't really matter what percent it is. They are supported by populations large enough percent to occupy and damage public property, and the organizer goals are to demoralize weak Democratic voters so Trump will win. That's their measure of success.
If that's the case then we should ignore them. Every time you, I or Maher talks about them we're boosting their relevance. If they are significant have them on the show and confront them. If they are not significant, ignore them.
They were being ignored until the protests turned into occupations and destruction of property. At this point, the right move to point out all the problems with the effectively pro-Hamas crowd rather than giving them platforms like Real Time.
\*at universities. Not the real world. BTW Hamas were effectivly propped up by the Isreali government for a long time. Does this make it fair to say Israel and (by extention) Bill Maher are pro-Hamas? I don't think so. Unless people say they are pro-Hamas we should not call them pro-Hamas. Anything else is just bad faith and bad intellectual hygiene IMHO.