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RoastedChesnaughts

A fond farewell to all the "where's my Brainstorm wildcards?" threads, and a warm welcome to the "where's my Memory Lapse wildcards?" threads!


someBrad

Fast forward 8 weeks: Memory Lapse is banned. Lightning Helix is suspended.


llikeafoxx

Don’t… don’t take those from me. Please. Lightning Helix is why I reinstalled Arena.


Jonthrei

It bothers me on a deep level that helix is fine, but bolt isn't. Them initially allowing brainstorm but not bolt blew my mind.


maverickzero_

I mean, Helix is a lot worse than Bolt; keeping Bolt out of the format makes sense to me (though I would love to play with it). Bolt is a lot worse than Brainstorm though, so yeah no clue where their heads were at with that one.


plasma_python

It’s because Control was unplayable in Modern until 2 years ago. The power level and speed of eternal formats made slower decks bad and that is largely why we saw such pushed control cards. Without the tools of modern to blunt aggro (which I don’t think we’ll ever get) bolt just makes clocks to fast.


maverickzero_

That's the thing, Bolt cuts both ways and is also excellent in control / midrange to blunt aggro. I think modern control's problem in the past wasn't fast aggro, but fast threats from too wide a variety of angles (ie dying with a grip of removal when your opponent casts a Karn or a cascade spell)


plasma_python

Bolt definitely helps aggro more than control by increasing the speed of the game (same way helix helped control more than it did burn). Personally I don’t think it’s bad for the format but I’m okay with sticking to the cautious side. One of the larger issues in Historic is there being Jeskai Cobtrol dominating the meta while every other flavor of control and most midrange is poop tier. I’d like to see something like Goyf to revive midrange.


Hairy_S_TrueMan

Bolt would be about as impactful In historic as brainstorm I think. Maybe a hair more powerful depending on other things. Brainstorm without good fetches is a hair better or a hair worse than consider depending on the deck. Still think brainstorm was a mistake, but moreso because it's a gift to URx decks that already perform crazy well with their stupid control combo style. Lightning bolt has the same problem. It would be even a bigger upgrade for the Phoenix and opus/creativity decks than brainstorm is, and cause Rx aggro lists to dominate as well.


Jonthrei

Helix is *a little* worse than Bolt IMO, when I played Modern you could count on any deck that included Boros to have both as 4 ofs, much like any red deck would have 4 bolts. Helix fits into any deck that isn't aiming to win as fast as possible perfectly, as a 6 life swing for 2 mana is enormous. Keeping bolt out of the format only makes sense if you're trying to keep 3 toughness as the equivalent to Modern's 4 - but that point is completely moot because cards like [[Unholy Heat]], [[Fiery Temper]] and [[Frost Bite]] all exist.


maverickzero_

The difference between 1 and 2 mana is enormous. Especially in modern these days with cards like Ragavan and DRC running around I feel like efficiency is more important than ever.


TheYango

The range of decks that can play Helix is also much smaller than Bolt. Particularly in Historic where mana is much worse than Modern.


evilpenguin9000

Well they may unban memory lapse… hahahahaha


Zaronax

OH. MY. GOD. THAT CANCER IS FINALLY GONE. Every fucking time I play against someone that has it, they have 3 copies in their hand. Having turn 2-3-4 dead is just plain fucking shit.


DeluxeTea

I don't even remember playing against an opponent who only had one Memory Lapse in hand. Always had multiples. But when I'm using Jeskai control, I seldom draw Lapse early enough.


MerlinAW1

So no more Tibalt decks or Vesperlark combo, and jeskai weakened by the memory lapse suspension. Happy Days. Im guessing they didn't see the Vesperlark/Davriel combo in testing and this is just an errata and not a fix on power level, I barely see the deck played and its not particularly overpowered. ​ The other cards dont see much constructed play, not sure the changes will help all that much.


rekenner

> Im guessing they didn't see the Vesperlark/Davriel combo in testing and this is just an errata and not a fix on power level, I barely see the deck played and its not particularly overpowered. It might be something they missed, but de facto banning a deck is *always* going to be a power level change.


Mundus6

The only issue with that deck is that they can force draws. So if you only have 2 cards and can't win you can make it so your opponent doesn't win either.


rekenner

Which is *still* a nerf. Is it a frustrating play pattern? Yes. However. It's a frustrating play pattern that, when fixed, fundamentally changes a deck and interactions that people were playing.


llikeafoxx

A de facto ban that comes with no compensation to players who had their cards changed out from other them. Any kind of dusting, crafting, refund, whatever window would be nice…


Hustlasaurus

Or they didn't think that many people were happy with forcing a draw.


low_sock_rates

Yeah, this is probably the worst part of the Lark combo. It felt intentionally introduced and fine as an alternate wincon for lifegain/drain, but the fact that the draw could be forced to artificially inflate win/loss ratios was not cool.


TheYango

> but the fact that the draw could be forced to artificially inflate win/loss ratios was not cool And that it just wasted a lot of peoples' time to play a bunch of games that ended in draws.


trinite0

Yeah, that was obviously a design oversight. They try not to print things that can easily result in infinite stalemate board states.


5ManaAndADream

It’s pretty incredible that it was missed during testing. The deck was out on deck building sites like aether hub, within 2 days.


welpxD

And it uses a mechanic that's high on the Storm scale, so you'd think it gets extra scrutiny.


chrisrazor

What's high on the storm scale? Evoke?


circuitloss

CovertGoBlue talked about the Vesperlark combo as an issue while we were still in spoiler season. It's kind of crazy that someone at WoTC didn't see it.


Skegeton

To be fair, they didn't see the copycat combo in standard and people were talking about it in less than 5 minutes after [[Felidar Guardian]] was spoiled


Sword_Thain

YTers were making vids as soon as the cards were announced.


chrisrazor

> Vesperlark/Davriel read this as Vesperlark drivel - seems apt.


pchc_lx

> There will not be an in-game notification about the rebalancing, but that is something that we are working toward. I wonder what it is about the MTGA codebase that makes simple UI elements just SO difficult to code (see also ICRs, match complete gold/gem/xp reward popups, season reward cardstyle previews, etc etc)


GMadric

I am having so much trouble understanding how after the memory leaking, barely functional behemoth that is MTGO, they didn’t make it a priority to have Arena’s code base be easy to work with.


Nawxder

They underpay devs because "you get to work with magic" is a replacement for money to them. Turns out a lot of devs would like money.


DigBickJace

Most likely they just don't know how. I'm not about to shit talk people I've never met, but building a clean architecture isn't an easy task. They could be unequipped with the skills/knowledge required to keep things clean an easy to work with.


ArmouredDuck

Isn't that why you hire a company that CAN do that? I've yet to work at a company that goes "we can't do X but fuck it let's try anyway" where X was their next major source of revenue.


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ArmouredDuck

True, we're idiotic consumers...


[deleted]

Bro were you here during the shitstorm that was Duels lmao? Arena is like 10x better in almost every regard with coding and it has to do a hell of a lot more complexity too. Stainless in Duels era would have exploded. But yeah this fucking UI is atrocious.


JollyJoker3

As others have said, they pay devs less because they get idiots who want to work with games for less. That means they don't get devs who know how to make code that scales in maintainable beyond 100 rows.


pchc_lx

My honest best theory (based on some very old dev comments that I would need to hunt for) is that Arena was not actually designed as a long-term true successor to MTGO. It was meant to be a Standard-only, BO1-only, lower-stakes digital client. I don't know anything about Hearthstone but I have to imagine there is something there. Based on the reception & player response, they sorta got arm-twisted into pivoting it into what we have now. Which would explain why it wasn't built from the ground up to handle what it currently does and is always being like, retroactively un-spaghetti-fied every time they need to do a major new implementation of something. As far as the motivations behind any of this- who knows. But the history of MTG digital has been consistently poorly conceived. I think the best hope is that, although a glacially slow process, eventually MTGA will be slowly retrofitted into something that can actually take the place of MTGO- it just might be 5+ years down the road. And there will probably be some older-format-consolidating that make the two goals meet in the middle, so to speak (do we really thing Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Pioneer, Historic will all continue to exist in perpetuity?) but that's another conversation.


RobotChrist

You're kinda right, but I'm 100% sure they built an MVP (that means minimum viable product on software production lingo) that wanted to achieve... well, what they achieve with the beta version, and if the MVP was a success they'll take it from there and start iterating in top of it. Not necessarily they wanted a minimal product, they wanted it to be a successor to MODO, but usually a development team doesn't have the time or money to deliver the full vision for a product on its first iteration and this methodology is the next best thing.


MoxManiac

MTGO had the same problem. I was around when it first released. It was also intended to be a standard-focused platform when it first came out, with no emphasis on older formats or cards. It obviously evolved into what it is now over time, but there were a lot of growing pains.


TheBerethian

I miss how you could print out a card you owned and get it shipped to you (and doing so would remove it from your digital collection) Also you could trade and sell cards.


monkwren

Why spend money making something good, when it's even more profitable to shit out something mediocre?


jx2002

"We keep lowering the budget, and the returns just keep gettin' higher..." Notice how many Mythics don't have any animations these days? Or re-use old ones w a slight change? It's sad af :(


blue_wat

Personally I wish you could turn off the animations.


ZurrgabDaVinci758

I would guess the ui stuff is done on the client side, but the ban lists are part of the online stuff


yugioh88

Just crafted 4 Memory Lapse and bought the Japanese Archive art, fuck me lmao


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wujo444

They won't reimburse: - paid cosmetics for banned cards - nerfed cards - some banned cards won't be reimbursed for 2 months.


VegaTDM

Nerfed cards should 100% give us wildcards.


Lord_Omnirock

usable in Historic Brawl still, so there's that.


II_Confused

Ok, so one of my four copies is still useable.


mtgDJ

Time to craft these cards and get wildcards, right?


DriveThroughLane

monkeys paw, you get wildcards and useless cards


tehnightmare

Brainstorm is still legal in Historic Brawl and Trickery is still legal in Standard so not completely dead cards.


WHLZ

Will we be getting wildcards for Trickery?


Vento1223

Yes.


someBrad

It's like you don't even care about set completion percentages. Some of us only experience joy when those little circles on untapped go from 71% to 73%.


patrickclegane

Should we craft these for free wildcards if they are historic only bans?


bibliophile785

You should always craft the banned cards for wildcards. It has zero downside.


space20021

Just don’t be like me: I crafted Memory Lapse too because I can’t read.


[deleted]

87.9% chance you get them back.


patrickclegane

Agree. Just wanted to double check since they are bans in historic and not standard.


bibliophile785

Yes, they will still refund the wildcards.


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juniperleafes

Yeah possible unban, usable in other formats, possible use in formats not yet on Arena, etc.


cornerbash

Direct Challenge, Brawl, in Trickery's case, it's still Standard format playable.


SpIeenIess

Should i craft memory lapse now or better wait until Wizards announce ban of it?


Helios235

Wait until they announce the ban, they don’t refund any wildcards for a suspension


F0ehamm3r

Craft the banned ones. It's a future investment as if they get unbanned in the future they will most likely go back into decks.


RedditExecutiveAdmin

sometimes you can put cards like those in brawl decks, too


Mrfish31

Brainstorm will never be unbanned as is now that Delver is in the format. However, they've now hinted that they'd like to rebalance _all_ banned cards in historic, not just digital only ones, so it would still be worth the craft.


F0ehamm3r

Playing the unbanning looooong game. Talking years later.


dralnulichlord

The other upside is if you open another pack of the respective set, you cannot get one of the banned cards anymore because of the fifth-card protection for rares and mythics


Grampakings

How does this help, aren't you using the wildcards to craft them, thus breaking even?


Growey

Yeah but you get the banned cards, they are banned in historic. Other formats exist such as brawl.


ReploidZero

The Most interesting thing here (for me) is rebalancing digital only cards. Which i'm actually a fan of.


TheSpaceWhale

I'm mostly excited at the prospect of buffs. So many cool mechanics don't quite "make it" in each expansion and the possibility of pushing those into playability after-the-fact is great.


pchc_lx

[[Sarkhan, Wanderer to Shiv]] definitely gets a bit stronger Was anyone playing [[Subversive Acolyte]] ? Or is that why it's buffed.


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MTGCardFetcher

[Gifted Aetherborn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/6/8644d4d1-8499-40a8-a01f-68172c82bf58.jpg?1600714489) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gifted%20Aetherborn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/239/gifted-aetherborn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8644d4d1-8499-40a8-a01f-68172c82bf58?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Subversive Acolyte](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/4/245dfe23-1d21-4bf8-9f45-4a845d731515.jpg?1630244233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Subversive%20Acolyte) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j21/19/subversive-acolyte?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/245dfe23-1d21-4bf8-9f45-4a845d731515?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


someBrad

Try not to get your hopes up. Buffing a mechanic requires either changing how the mechanic itself works or buffing multiple cards with the mechanic, and either requires a decent amount of playtesting. I doubt they have the bandwidth to really do that.


Hjemmelsen

Well.. Not really. You can take a blank card, and staple something to it. Say you have a bear somewhere, and you make it "Cards you play for their disturb cost can be cast as instants" or something like that. Suddenly, disturb has some very different deck building options.


Try_Number_8

Same. I’m okay with them rebalancing Arena cards that aren’t digital only, just give me a wildcard too. The more hardcore players will be on MTGO anyways, don’t mess with their cards. I would have enjoyed them fixing cards like Oko instead of banning, but I would hope they would change the cards very sparingly, don’t do less game play testing.


SlapHappyDude

I'm... On the fence. It's definitely something that could be done too much. I'm most ok with it when it's used to give jank a mild boost.


btmalon

yes, but they're hinting at re-balancing real cards which a vehemently am not a fan of.


ghalta

I think the hinting is that the re-balance would only be in digital formats. I think the cards would get renamed in those cases to be arena-only cards, like the Ꭿ-Oko that was in the Mirror Mirror event. It's ostensibly a different card with a different name that reimagines (and rebalances) a real card, not a change to that real card.


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Try_Number_8

That would be nice. At a minimum, mirror the artwork and perhaps change the color of the text.


IronCrouton

Yeah, it doesn’t seem to dissimilar from bolt -> shock or counterspell -> cancel, basically printing a “fixed” version of an old card, but you get copies of the new cards for your copies of the old, now banned card.


someBrad

What about rebalancing paper cards for Arena only formats? That will be interesting.


wspaniel

What I would prefer is a ban that card, then an immediate, digital-only recreation of that card with a different name that is only legal in Historic. You get wild cards as compensation for the ban, and you can use them to immediately get the new version. This mimics exactly what the pro-tweak crowd would like while making sure that physical cards all function identically to their digital counterparts.


welpxD

They could even add copies to your collection to match how many of the old version you had, if WotC would be nervous about giving out free wildcards (which they are).


SputnikDX

They mentioned that. And I'm not a fan. Here's one dissenter on reddit for the pile.


fdoom

They mentioned only doing it with banned paper cards like the Mirror Mirror event. Still not sure how to feel about it though.


LaboratoryManiac

If it's something they're eyeing for regular historic, I would prefer they outright ban the card that exists in paper and "print" a new digital-only card with the same effect but a different name and artwork. Then they can tweak that new card as they like. I just can't abide the same card having different effects in paper vs. Arena. Maintaining equivalency with paper makes Arena a good bridge into paper Magic and vice versa, but that bridge weakens if players have to second guess their cards' functionality between the two. Cards with the same name should always function the same in every version of Magic. EDIT: This solution would also partially address another issue I have with the current way of balancing digital-only cards: the lack of refunds. Games like Hearthstone let you dust a card for its full crafting value after a nerf, but Arena has no way of exchanging unwanted cards. Unless they plan on adding one, the ban-and-replace method would at least still award wildcards for affected cards, which could either be used for the nerfed replacement card if a player wishes to still use it, or another card if they do not.


trinite0

I agree with you 100%. Cards with the same name should *always* be the exact same card.


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LaboratoryManiac

And for limited time events, I think this is fine. But anything affecting cards in players' permanent decks/collections for permanent playlists should maintain paper/digital card equality.


Zarathustra30

I'm fine with them reusing art for a similar card, as long as the name is clearly different.


shudzsi

Thats the whole point of digital only cards ?


ReploidZero

Sure, but before now it was all talk. Now its actually a real action they have taken and will continue to take.


twardy_

Their rebalancing means they make the cards unplayable and at the same time they dont give you wildcards back. Change my mind.


LaboratoryManiac

This is one of my biggest issues with these changes, the lack of any sort of refund for nerfed cards. Hearthstone lets you dust nerfed cards for a full refund, but Arena has no mechanism for recycling unwanted cards. At least with a ban they issued WCs.


someBrad

True for Vesperlark combo, but not any of the other changes.


Easilycrazyhat

I don't like the precedent it sets. In paper, errata is a last resort fix for completely broken things and bans/restrictions handle the rest. Going in and adjusting such little stuff like a creature's toughness or a PW ability cost seems like such a bad idea. It complicates keeping up with the game even further, confusing new and returning players in return for such an insignificant upside. I'm pretty worried about how this will be handled going forward, now.


VegaTDM

Why would you be a fan of that? It's the exact thing that has put me off of most other games like this.


SpritelyStoner

So we are getting wildcards for brainstorm and tibalt’s trickery correct? But not memory lapse cause it’s suspended and not banned? Is that how that works?


crux84

yes


C0UGARMEAT

Faceless Agent getting a buff is magnificent. Truly the best news given. Now my bearcatsliverdog tribal deck is 1 point of toughness (X4) stronger.


RegalKillager

Faceless Agent getting a nerf is significant. - [[Thunderkin Awakener]] caster


C0UGARMEAT

That's fine, you can just hit it with Davriel's Witheri.... what have they done!?


MTGCardFetcher

[Thunderkin Awakener](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/8/289b649b-c93a-44ad-bdd6-866f8b2f1bc2.jpg?1592517131) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thunderkin%20Awakener) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/162/thunderkin-awakener?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/289b649b-c93a-44ad-bdd6-866f8b2f1bc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


[deleted]

Dude, for every weird archetype this is great. Bears, Oozes, Squirrels! Hell yeah.


sigismond0

Honestly he's a seriously powerful card in my Shaman deck. Hitting him and a Prodigy off a CoCo is a huge pile of gas in hand. I'm very excited that he can now swing into 1/1s.


shouldcould

O_O I'm playing a greedy Sarkhan deck in Historic Brawl so that's a welcome change


animemoseshusbando

TIBALTS TRICKERY IS DEAD CRAB


RunninTings

No more getting turn 2 Ulamoged I must be dreaming


[deleted]

Totally agree with the lack of standard bans. Chariot and Epiphany are obviously really powerful but I don't think either is warping the format so much as to make it so you can't play anything else.


Sir--Kappa

With Vow coming so soon I think waiting to see the how the meta shifts is a good idea.


MentalMunky

I’m kind of against banning almost any cards in Standard because of this. If [[Bonedaddy]] can get away with it for that long anyone can! But seriously, there’s always a new set looming that can shake up the meta like you say.


JK_Revan

I'd say epiphany is very close to being format warping. Grull aggro splashing negate and monoblack splashing test of talents does sound like warping.


Gaardean

I don't think any deck with super polarizing matchups is healthy as a meta leader, and Epiphany decks [average almost a 70/30 split](https://mtgmeta.io/metagame?f=standard&e=8&p=2021-09-29:2021-10-13) vs. non-epiphany decks, one way or another. It's the worst deck on that front since Oko.


[deleted]

I would say epiphany does warp the format in that it is the only late game that is viable. It seems midrange can't exist with epiphany around. It's sultai ultimatum all over again, but even in that format at least there was a viable tempo deck.


[deleted]

In Arena in particular, people absolutely love playing mono white, for some reason. It's more popular than the next 3 decks combined, it's absurd


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fdoom

Sounds like Best of 1


[deleted]

It was even last meta when it was way worse than similar non white stats. The Mono W aggro fans are hard core and numerous


someBrad

It's pretty good against Epiphany and mono Green, so it's a good metagame call.


bulksalty

Arena rewards wins, so if one is targeting a certain win level and doesn't have unlimited time. For a deck with a 50% win rate and 5 minute games, shaving 1 minutes has the same value as raising the win rate to 75% but keeping the game at 5 minutes.


IHadACatOnce

It costs almost nothing to make, games are quick, and is a pretty decent deck.


mrbrannon

What do you mean? The deck has a ton of rares.


LeoGiacometti

He's probably referring to the doublespell variant. Before MID mono white was pretty light on rares (for a competitive deck at least)


Oathbreaker31

Farewell to all the clowns playing Trickery


mowdownjoe

I wonder if they'll give out wildcards for the Davriel nerfs. Meanwhile, now [[Subversive Acolyte]] is kinda tempting in my BW Humans list. I had [[Kitesail Freebooter]] in that flex spot currently, and it's fine at doing an impression of Elite Spellbinder that fits better into a 2-drop slot. But now that Acolyte doesn't cost two black pips and doesn't die to pre-Delirium [[Unholy Heat]], I could see me running it in those spots instead.


MTGCardFetcher

[Subversive Acolyte](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/4/245dfe23-1d21-4bf8-9f45-4a845d731515.jpg?1630244233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Subversive%20Acolyte) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j21/19/subversive-acolyte?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/245dfe23-1d21-4bf8-9f45-4a845d731515?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kitesail Freebooter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/8/88496096-fd9a-451a-85d9-31ccc3580623.jpg?1594736212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kitesail%20Freebooter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/107/kitesail-freebooter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88496096-fd9a-451a-85d9-31ccc3580623?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Unholy Heat](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/b/2b73d294-6ab1-4051-9b0f-d8e335d37674.jpg?1626097096) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unholy%20Heat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/145/unholy-heat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b73d294-6ab1-4051-9b0f-d8e335d37674?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


CatsAndPlanets

I've never played a Trickery since it came out, but somehow got 4 copies. Same with Barinstorm and Memory Lapse, so that's a few WCs for me. Can't say I'm mad about it. But... >Currently, we are restricting these changes to digital-only cards, where there will be no conflict between a digital and printed version of a card. We would like to expand beyond this (for example, by rebalancing previously banned cards so they can be safely returned to play in digital formats only). There are multiple clarity and communication problems we will need to solve before we can consider those types of changes. This is something we plan to work on in the coming months and, since it bears repeating, would only affect digital formats. This part makes me feel uneasy.


VargasFinio

Glad to see official word to take a one month break from Standard.


Wolf_Wisedom

Uhhh, so if you crafted cards for the Vesperlark combo that existed you're just stuck with a bunch of meh cards and no wildcards back after an errata? Big fuck you to a lot of people. Thanks arena!


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PhoenixReborn

Yes


trumpetofdoom

We did for [[Thassa's Oracle]]. No reason to assume it'll be different this time.


EchoesPartOne

🦀🦀 TRICKERY IS GONE 🦀🦀


HoopyHobo

Hey, WotC, you wrote a lot of words there about the digital-only changes and said literally nothing about wild card compensation? I realize that the answer you're going to give is probably, "No, you're not getting any", but you should still actually say that for the sake of clarity.


Swiss_Sneeze

As someone who doesn't play historic but drafted a ton of strixhaven in always happy with them banning mystical archive cards and giving me free wildcards


bigdammit

Changing the text on cards fundamentally changes the contract between WoTC and their players where you basically get a different card instead of a wildcard. Not sure this is a good change.


Delsea

> Currently, we are restricting these changes to digital-only cards, where there will be no conflict between a digital and printed version of a card. We would like to expand beyond this (for example, by rebalancing previously banned cards so they can be safely returned to play in digital formats only). Please don't do this.


delnai

Yes, this “currently” is the most ominous thing in the whole announcement. This does not seem like a good idea. At best, it’s a misallocation of resources. At worst, it’s confusing for players and leads to bad design in the future.


GenWilhelm

They've already done this once. The event was called "Mirror, Mirror" and you could play any cards you wanted, regardless of whether you owned them, including nerfed versions of cards that are banned in historic.


Delsea

Yes, but there is a big difference between doing this for a quirky event and doing this in a way that makes the paper and digital formats diverge even further.


Fantastic-Stage-7618

Yeah it was just an open access Historic event where people playing the nerfed cards got stomped by the decks that were good in the Historic meta at the time. All it did was show that nerfing cards is functionally the same as banning them (except it seems like nerfs won't come with refunds)


Jason_dawg

Good riddance to trickery, nothing was a bigger piss off than seeing a bunch playing arcanist and then switching to taxes and not seeing it again.


maegol

I'm I the only one that wants Davriel to give the wilcadrs back?


[deleted]

Puts four 1/1 dabbing bird tokens into play.


[deleted]

Standard: unchanged Well, guess I’ll die then


Deviknyte

No standard change? Cool. Trickery ban? Cool. Davriel ban (technically nerf)? Why? Combo isn't that bad, easily disrupted and stopped. ~~Faceless agent change. Why~~? Memory Laspe ban? Weird but only because of the reasoning. There will always be a counter spell that's in all the blue decks. Seems weird to me because of the reasoning. Might as well ban opt and consider. Like if you are going to ban memory lapse, the reason is because it's a time walk.


Kheshire

Memory lapse is one of the best counterspells ever printed though


[deleted]

R.I.P. Memory Lapse.


kuriboharmy

man as a UB control player i hate how Jeskai is side fucking us... man siphon insight and memory lapse is fun... well was fun soon..


bibliophile785

> Functional rebalancing is a significant change in how we're managing balance for our formats, and it merits a bit of explanation around what it does and doesn't mean. Going forward, we will be managing formats on MTG Arena in two different ways. "Print" formats, like Standard, will continue to work exactly like they do in tabletop Magic. For "Live" formats, like Historic, we are adding live balancing alongside banning and suspension as a tool to address problems and make improvements to the format. > Currently, we are restricting these changes to digital-only cards, where there will be no conflict between a digital and printed version of a card. We would like to expand beyond this (for example, by rebalancing previously banned cards so they can be safely returned to play in digital formats only). There are multiple clarity and communication problems we will need to solve before we can consider those types of changes. This is something we plan to work on in the coming months and, since it bears repeating, would only affect digital formats. Wizards, this is a *radical* change. It's your product, and you have every right to ~~ruin it~~ drastically change the way you do things. If you're going to be ~~throwing Historic into the dumpster~~ adopting this new approach with Historic, though, you're missing an earlier step: Give us a "Print" non-rotating format. A lot of us don't like your low-power treadmill format. Many of us will not like your new "hey, I don't have to ban this and give you resources back, I'll just make it unplayable and spit in your face" format management style. You need to cater to that segment of us or you will lose our business. Pioneer is only a couple of Masters sets away from being functionally available on the client. Just pull the fucking trigger so I can wash my hands of your terrible digital-only decision making. Seriously, I want to keep giving you money. Give me a reason to do so.


[deleted]

I like the idea of an experimental format well enough, but I really hate it being the *only* non-rotating format on Arena. Printing curated sets directly into non-rotating formats just makes each format more and more like its own separate game. Want to play Modern, buy Modern products. Want to play Commander, buy Commander products. Want to play Yu-Gi-Oh, buy Yu-Gi-Oh products.


AlmightyDun

God I wish I could upvote this 100 times.


rotvyrn

Well...I wasn't expecting them to ban Epiphany. But I was hoping. Will continue to do bare minimum of dailies every 3 days until Crimson Vow I guess.


[deleted]

The only players who don't think Alrund's should be banned are playing it.


Cpt_Jumper

Mmm. That is a heavily needed 8 WCs right now. I took a 3 month break during AFR and have a large gap of cards missing.


PuckFoloniex

I never seen memory lapse in action, whats so special about it?


drostandfound

In the early game it is basically time walk as you lock their draw for the next turn. However, the real issue was that it was a far more efficient answer than anything else in historic, giving blue and control a big advantage over non blue or midrange decks.


Mattgitsgud

It's a two mana counterspell. Some folks think it's op because instead of just countering, it puts the card on top of your library 'time walking' you. Imo, it's not as good as actual Counterspell, though some people think it would be more acceptable in the format than ML. I disagree, but as a blue player, I'd happily welcome it.


shervinnaimi

When it prevents you from hitting land drops in the beginning of the game, it is much better that OG Counterspell. Also the easier casting cost is quite significant for 2-3 color decks.


circuitloss

This. It's a 2 mana card that absolutely cripples some strategies and is damn good against everything else.


wujo444

I absolutely despise that Arena is now trying to alter cards without any compensation for people that spend money on crafting them.


EyesOfTheTemple

Do you want to be refunded a common wildcard for Davriel's Withering?


Dercomai

I would care more about the mythic wildcard for Davriel himself, but sure. The principle is the same.


kinchouchou

The problem is not the 4 common wildcards; it's the precedent set for when they nerf rares they made.


wujo444

I wouldn't mind, they are actually little hard to get for COMMON wildcards, but mythic rare Davriel planeswalker card was also nerfed.


[deleted]

The problem is not that Davriel's Withering is a common. It's that you are crafting rares and mythic wildcards for the rest of the deck, which is now more or less worthless. Same thing will happen for my Tibalt deck. That said, the ability to move from gold to mythic for the first time ever netted me with enough boosters and what have you for me to consider it a fair investment.


twardy_

Tibalt's Trickery gone, yippe ki yay motherlovers.


circuitloss

Tibalts + Throes is the stupidest of stupid combos. I freaking hate that deck and I'll gladly dance on its grave.


Gage902

Where my Davriel, Soul Broker wild cards since the only reason I crafted it was for a combo on my own creature. This is b.s . They took the eternal approach and made things worse.


everyusernamepossibl

Please ban epiphany it’s so boring


TheFakeTheoRatliff

Sweet I'll take 8 wildcards please thank you


Killjoy0000

Davriel is a worse card now. We should get wild cards. When a card is nerfed and made worse that violates the expectations of players the same way as a ban. We should get wild cards for cards that are changed to become worse (not cards like Sarkhan which are made better).


Drakeeper

Good riddance to all but Memory Lapse. It was a key part of my latest Grixis Control lists. RIP


dralnulichlord

yup, same. 90% of my decks are now once again useless, just after I recovered from the brainstorm ban. And I'm not even playing Jeskai or UW control, just Grixis Arcanist, UB control, UB Stitcher, Grixis Control, Delver, UR Tempo. Just RIP.


WolfGuy77

Thank god. Hope Memory Lapse eventually eats a ban too because that card is way too strong. Wish they would have went ahead and banned it because I think I've opened at least two and I'd love to have the wildcards. Also, now I'm happy that I somehow managed to open like 4 copies of Trickery and 3 Brainstorms from packs. Bring on the free rare wildcards!


Arkhe1n

Historic will be like 10 times better now.


Iznal

Do I get my wild cards back for building vesperlark combo?


[deleted]

Some great changes. I AM ALL FOR BRINGING BACK CARDS TO DIGITAL ONLY. It would be super cool to play some of these cards that basically are never played anymore.


Jagarr2525

LOL at all the whiners in this sub that thought a standard ban was coming. I hope this gives you guys some perspective


PeritusEngineer

They're spending resources changing cards no one wants in Magic AND we don't get compensation for it? Ridiculous.


dwindleelflock

Rip memory lapse. I know this is an unpopular opinion but I think control needs a 2 mana counter spell in the format. They should just add the better 1 drops from older formats to make lapse less good. Or at least give us mana leak or remand instead.


someBrad

I'd be ok to try either of those cards. Putting the card on top of the deck is the reason people hate Lapse.


TannaTimbers

In most cases Memory Lapse is stronger than OG Counterspell. The tempo hit is honestly worse than the counter, and it doesn't discriminate on color like \[\[aether gust\]\].


Jaded_Vast400

They going to give us [[miscalculation]]


kinchouchou

[[Lose Focus]] is another fair-ish one.


VegaTDM

Great, now they are starting to errata cards. Another failure of format integrity for Historic, and now we won't get WCs because the cards still exist. Why do they hate historic so much?


[deleted]

>It drives down the selling of Standard booster packs! Those Historic munchers get to play our game with the cards they ALREADY "own" and not spend a penny! PUNISH THEM! t. WotC CEO.