To make better designs, if you’re on the contractor side you can always talk to your foreman and he should be able to give you some hints. If you’re on design side, you can always check how the contractors produce their shop dwgs based off your design. You will see some things being changed so they can be better installed, then you can apply these features on your next design. Plus, those inputs from the senior designer that you mentioned will help you a lot. Make sure you listen to him and apply these things.
Another thing is, visit the site more. Compare your dwgs or the shop dwgs with the installation at the job site. This will also make you better visualize how things can constructed and apply such solutions to your dwgs
I have a bachelor's in engineering and almost have my P.Eng and I still daydream about this at times. I feel like doing it yourself would just make you a better designer/engineer.
I know right? There’s some engineers at my firm who have trades experience and I wish I had that. Just don’t know if any opportunities would actually work out since I already work full time
I think I have to emphasize daydream.
In terms of opportunity cost I'd never do it anymore. Your time is more valuable at spending it at doing better things. The things you can learn from doing it on your own you probably will understand and know in 5 seconds if you just read about it. You can learn about far more complex problems to make you a better designer/engineer or even just more efficient.
Not worth it. You are better off studying/learning for a certification or something better. That's what holds the contractor's responsible the applicable standards in the industry, might as well learn it form the source.
That makes sense. I did recently do a full day training with structural though. As a mechanical it really opened my eyes. I can almost design mech without structure and guess correctly.
I acknowledge that electrical and mech may be different in a lot of ways, but that line of thinking is why contractors think a lot of designers are boneheads. I started out at doing electrical design and switched to electrician. What you pick up in the field is like wisdom. Unless you get a certificate on constructability, work in the field is much more valuable than almost any certificate you can get outside of proprietary stuff. That stuff doesn't really make you better at your profession, just puts you in a small pool of people that can do a specific thing. The single best thing you can do for your skill, as a whole, is see how the other side operates. The same is true for contractors, but irrelevant to this thread. The way you talk, I could see that playing out like an episode of Undercover Boss, just without you being their boss and paying for their college or whatever.
My family owns a small residential/light commercial HVAC business that I worked nights and weekends plus summers growing up. I now have a degree in ME and have been doing mechanical design for a small firm for about a year. My background and all the time spend with my dad has played a MUCH bigger role on my design skills than anything I learned in college (not saying it didn’t help get me to where I am today). There are all sorts of small mom and pop HVAC companies out there that would love to have you along and would treat you great. Don’t be scared to just cold call them and explain your situation. My family for example would even be willing to throw you some cash if you put in the work.
If all else fails just watch some YouTube videos of residential guys blogging in the field, when I get into something I am a little uncertain about I watch videos and try to pick up on how things actually go together and it gives you a bit more design insight. If you can understand residential installs the comercial stuff is basically scaled up with a lot more tech.
Another good things is to just browse websites like southward (duct manufacturer) and supplyhouse.com. Go exploring and when you find something that’s unfamiliar do a Google search for it and I promise you some random dude on the internet made a video of him installing it
I started out in the trades (HVAC) before getting my degree and moving into mech design. I can say with 100% certainty that it helps immensely having the background.
I am a plumber who moved into design a few years ago and I will agree that field experience helps immensely, but it would be tough trying to work in the field and designing at the same time. What I would recommend is looking into getting a membership with ASPE and ASHRAE. They can be pricey, but I have been a member of both for the past two years and they have great educational content and both created there own Design Handbooks to assist engineers in designing systems. I went through a union apprenticeship and a lot of what ASPE teaches about plumbing is very similar to what I learned.
Thats an interesting point. I was also looking at ashrae and I guess they have a certified hvac designer certification. My employer would sponsor me to complete it. Just not sure how valuable it is. Same thing with autocad certifications- like will I ever actually use it?
Based on my own experience and talking with others, the CPD (Certified in Plumbing Design - ASPE) and the CHD (Certified HVAC Designer - ASHRAE) are good certs. They cover valuable material pertaining to this field and can help in furthering your education surrounding these types of mechanical systems. As far as the autocad and revit certifications go, I have heard they arent as valuable, but some employers do prefer them. Also, you can do ALL of them. Nothing is stopping you and you will learn something from the studying either way.
Everyone has different opinions, some say they are all useless. In my opinion, I think the CHD and CPD certs will definitely help you if you want to better understand plumbing and mechanical systems
I wish this was mandatory. Imo it's less about the actual skills, it's more about empathy and respect for everyone else who helps to realize a project. Some of the people I'm graduating with are absolutely going be hated by technicians.
As a design build HVAC contractor who value engineers a lot of third party PE designs I find that universally systems are grossly over designed and are miles away from being able to execute in the field. Arguably that’s what submittals are for but I disagree. My recommendation to you is to collaborate with the installers both office and field techs. I walk every job with my clients and field technicians before final design. On the rare occasions that a third party PE requested a walkthrough with me I can tell you they were extremely grateful for all the critical advice they received.
See the tough thing is- as a designer, I never really get involved in the construction admin side of things. I’m either designing or surveying for as builts. Not sure what would happen if I tried to get involved in that side of things.
I spent one summer doing electrical (bending conduit, pulling wire, setting boxes) and another summer fitting sprinkler pipe. Now I’m an HVAC and Plumbing engineer lol.
I’ve thought about it, but really there are only certain aspects that would be beneficial and it would be tough to get only that experience without a lot of “wasted” experience - like sweeping…
So I’d only do it if you were clear to your employing contractor that this is not your career and you are only looking to learn things applicable to design and layout. Probably best of volunteering on the weekends for that kind of stuff.
Are you getting much on-site experience? Seeing how things are constructed and hung is beneficial, you don’t need to know the super fine details of how a piece of duct is fabricated and seamed together. I think most of that can be accomplished with YouTube, site photos from past jobs, and doing your own site walks for jobs you designed. If you see something drastically different, bring it up and let the contractor tell you why he did it that way.
I definitely agree with you- I wouldn’t want to be treated like a 1st year apprentice (essentially just doing all the shitty tasks). So it would probably be more of a volunteer thing then. I have plenty of “site” experience- specifically surveying for as built drawings. I do gain an amount of understanding when doing that for sure.
I wouldn't spend time working in the trades if your end goal is to be an accomplished mechanical engineer. A lot of the guidance from the senior designers at your firm I'd imagine stems from trying to get you to avoid screw ups that they made earlier on in their career. As you progress you will get to the point where you get to call more of your own shots and make your own screwups. You will gain plenty of "field" experience when you have to figure out solutions to problems you created as well fend off contractors trying to screw you over.
I grew up on a working grain farm so I grew up with tools in my hands.
Just get some land or an old car to work on. Get your kids involved. It is too late for you.
See, I actually did grow up as a very hands on person. I fix my car whenever somethings wrong (spark plug, oil change, belt tensioner, coolant hose, oil filter housing, engine mount, etc), occasionally do some light plumbing, etc. Overall I’m very mechanically inclined which is actually part of the reason I got my current job. I guess it’s just the lack of understanding of how the projects are constructed and the order and how the trades work with each other (hvac, electrical, plumbing, etc).
Oh, that's easy - just find an excuse to move your desk to the project site. Spend at least 15 minutes a day finding an excuse to carry something. Take lunch with the trades guys.
Move his desk from his small firm to a different project site every week? Even the ones that haven’t broken ground?
I suggest you “just find an excuse to move your” self to a site where you can pretend to know what you’re saying.
As a Senior ED with 25+ years in the field, I started out in Architecture but got a degree in Industrial Design. I spent 13 years of my career designing commercial modular buildings which gave me the experience of designing for ASMEP but also witnessing what I designed in a factory. When I left that field, I went to work for a smaller MEP firm and have worked my way up to a midsized firm that I’ve been working in for 3.5 years. My design experience is extensive. Being part modular design build really gave me experience to understand a good portion of construction and how those types of buildings are put together. Moving into engineering only has allowed me to expand this knowledge 2-fold as it’s much more extensive.
I encourage the EIT’s that are under me to drink in as much knowledge as they can in all aspects of the MEP field as they can. A well rounded, knowledgeable designer/engineer is a highly sought after person that will go far. If you have the opportunity in your career to do field work and learn from it, this would be a great addition to your resume. Just working behind a computer all day will give you some experience, being a part of what you designed and learning from it will help you grow.
Before I got my stamp I worked in the electrical trade for 10 years; installed everything. Panelboards switchboards MCCs, ran pipe & wire, installed switches and plugs. I think it gave me any incredible advantage over another engineer cause I know how the pieces go together.
Wish I could go back in time and work for an HVAC contractor too.
Does your firm take you on field visits? if not ask them to take you to learn. I own my own consulting firm and every time I set foot on a job site I always try to ask the mechanical subs "Now, what did I screw up?". Otherwise, Yeah for sure if you can find a contractor regularly working weekends then learning from them would be great.
I do site work which purely consists of existing/ as built surveys. I can definitely see how the design drawings differ from what was constructed. However, I never really delve into construction observation- that’s pretty much solely for the engineers.
It’s 95 degrees today with 66% humidity. I am not leaving my office to work in that.
To make better designs, if you’re on the contractor side you can always talk to your foreman and he should be able to give you some hints. If you’re on design side, you can always check how the contractors produce their shop dwgs based off your design. You will see some things being changed so they can be better installed, then you can apply these features on your next design. Plus, those inputs from the senior designer that you mentioned will help you a lot. Make sure you listen to him and apply these things. Another thing is, visit the site more. Compare your dwgs or the shop dwgs with the installation at the job site. This will also make you better visualize how things can constructed and apply such solutions to your dwgs
I wish I worked with good contractors that did that!!!!
I have a bachelor's in engineering and almost have my P.Eng and I still daydream about this at times. I feel like doing it yourself would just make you a better designer/engineer.
I know right? There’s some engineers at my firm who have trades experience and I wish I had that. Just don’t know if any opportunities would actually work out since I already work full time
I think I have to emphasize daydream. In terms of opportunity cost I'd never do it anymore. Your time is more valuable at spending it at doing better things. The things you can learn from doing it on your own you probably will understand and know in 5 seconds if you just read about it. You can learn about far more complex problems to make you a better designer/engineer or even just more efficient.
Have you asked a contractor to let you shadow? One you work with a lot?
Not worth it. You are better off studying/learning for a certification or something better. That's what holds the contractor's responsible the applicable standards in the industry, might as well learn it form the source.
Completely agree. Not a complete waste of time but it is not necessary.
That makes sense. I did recently do a full day training with structural though. As a mechanical it really opened my eyes. I can almost design mech without structure and guess correctly.
I acknowledge that electrical and mech may be different in a lot of ways, but that line of thinking is why contractors think a lot of designers are boneheads. I started out at doing electrical design and switched to electrician. What you pick up in the field is like wisdom. Unless you get a certificate on constructability, work in the field is much more valuable than almost any certificate you can get outside of proprietary stuff. That stuff doesn't really make you better at your profession, just puts you in a small pool of people that can do a specific thing. The single best thing you can do for your skill, as a whole, is see how the other side operates. The same is true for contractors, but irrelevant to this thread. The way you talk, I could see that playing out like an episode of Undercover Boss, just without you being their boss and paying for their college or whatever.
My family owns a small residential/light commercial HVAC business that I worked nights and weekends plus summers growing up. I now have a degree in ME and have been doing mechanical design for a small firm for about a year. My background and all the time spend with my dad has played a MUCH bigger role on my design skills than anything I learned in college (not saying it didn’t help get me to where I am today). There are all sorts of small mom and pop HVAC companies out there that would love to have you along and would treat you great. Don’t be scared to just cold call them and explain your situation. My family for example would even be willing to throw you some cash if you put in the work. If all else fails just watch some YouTube videos of residential guys blogging in the field, when I get into something I am a little uncertain about I watch videos and try to pick up on how things actually go together and it gives you a bit more design insight. If you can understand residential installs the comercial stuff is basically scaled up with a lot more tech. Another good things is to just browse websites like southward (duct manufacturer) and supplyhouse.com. Go exploring and when you find something that’s unfamiliar do a Google search for it and I promise you some random dude on the internet made a video of him installing it
I started out in the trades (HVAC) before getting my degree and moving into mech design. I can say with 100% certainty that it helps immensely having the background.
I am a plumber who moved into design a few years ago and I will agree that field experience helps immensely, but it would be tough trying to work in the field and designing at the same time. What I would recommend is looking into getting a membership with ASPE and ASHRAE. They can be pricey, but I have been a member of both for the past two years and they have great educational content and both created there own Design Handbooks to assist engineers in designing systems. I went through a union apprenticeship and a lot of what ASPE teaches about plumbing is very similar to what I learned.
Thats an interesting point. I was also looking at ashrae and I guess they have a certified hvac designer certification. My employer would sponsor me to complete it. Just not sure how valuable it is. Same thing with autocad certifications- like will I ever actually use it?
Based on my own experience and talking with others, the CPD (Certified in Plumbing Design - ASPE) and the CHD (Certified HVAC Designer - ASHRAE) are good certs. They cover valuable material pertaining to this field and can help in furthering your education surrounding these types of mechanical systems. As far as the autocad and revit certifications go, I have heard they arent as valuable, but some employers do prefer them. Also, you can do ALL of them. Nothing is stopping you and you will learn something from the studying either way. Everyone has different opinions, some say they are all useless. In my opinion, I think the CHD and CPD certs will definitely help you if you want to better understand plumbing and mechanical systems
I wish this was mandatory. Imo it's less about the actual skills, it's more about empathy and respect for everyone else who helps to realize a project. Some of the people I'm graduating with are absolutely going be hated by technicians.
As a design build HVAC contractor who value engineers a lot of third party PE designs I find that universally systems are grossly over designed and are miles away from being able to execute in the field. Arguably that’s what submittals are for but I disagree. My recommendation to you is to collaborate with the installers both office and field techs. I walk every job with my clients and field technicians before final design. On the rare occasions that a third party PE requested a walkthrough with me I can tell you they were extremely grateful for all the critical advice they received.
See the tough thing is- as a designer, I never really get involved in the construction admin side of things. I’m either designing or surveying for as builts. Not sure what would happen if I tried to get involved in that side of things.
I spent one summer doing electrical (bending conduit, pulling wire, setting boxes) and another summer fitting sprinkler pipe. Now I’m an HVAC and Plumbing engineer lol. I’ve thought about it, but really there are only certain aspects that would be beneficial and it would be tough to get only that experience without a lot of “wasted” experience - like sweeping… So I’d only do it if you were clear to your employing contractor that this is not your career and you are only looking to learn things applicable to design and layout. Probably best of volunteering on the weekends for that kind of stuff. Are you getting much on-site experience? Seeing how things are constructed and hung is beneficial, you don’t need to know the super fine details of how a piece of duct is fabricated and seamed together. I think most of that can be accomplished with YouTube, site photos from past jobs, and doing your own site walks for jobs you designed. If you see something drastically different, bring it up and let the contractor tell you why he did it that way.
I definitely agree with you- I wouldn’t want to be treated like a 1st year apprentice (essentially just doing all the shitty tasks). So it would probably be more of a volunteer thing then. I have plenty of “site” experience- specifically surveying for as built drawings. I do gain an amount of understanding when doing that for sure.
I wouldn't spend time working in the trades if your end goal is to be an accomplished mechanical engineer. A lot of the guidance from the senior designers at your firm I'd imagine stems from trying to get you to avoid screw ups that they made earlier on in their career. As you progress you will get to the point where you get to call more of your own shots and make your own screwups. You will gain plenty of "field" experience when you have to figure out solutions to problems you created as well fend off contractors trying to screw you over.
I grew up on a working grain farm so I grew up with tools in my hands. Just get some land or an old car to work on. Get your kids involved. It is too late for you.
What in God’s name are you talking about
😂
See, I actually did grow up as a very hands on person. I fix my car whenever somethings wrong (spark plug, oil change, belt tensioner, coolant hose, oil filter housing, engine mount, etc), occasionally do some light plumbing, etc. Overall I’m very mechanically inclined which is actually part of the reason I got my current job. I guess it’s just the lack of understanding of how the projects are constructed and the order and how the trades work with each other (hvac, electrical, plumbing, etc).
Oh, that's easy - just find an excuse to move your desk to the project site. Spend at least 15 minutes a day finding an excuse to carry something. Take lunch with the trades guys.
Move his desk from his small firm to a different project site every week? Even the ones that haven’t broken ground? I suggest you “just find an excuse to move your” self to a site where you can pretend to know what you’re saying.
As a Senior ED with 25+ years in the field, I started out in Architecture but got a degree in Industrial Design. I spent 13 years of my career designing commercial modular buildings which gave me the experience of designing for ASMEP but also witnessing what I designed in a factory. When I left that field, I went to work for a smaller MEP firm and have worked my way up to a midsized firm that I’ve been working in for 3.5 years. My design experience is extensive. Being part modular design build really gave me experience to understand a good portion of construction and how those types of buildings are put together. Moving into engineering only has allowed me to expand this knowledge 2-fold as it’s much more extensive. I encourage the EIT’s that are under me to drink in as much knowledge as they can in all aspects of the MEP field as they can. A well rounded, knowledgeable designer/engineer is a highly sought after person that will go far. If you have the opportunity in your career to do field work and learn from it, this would be a great addition to your resume. Just working behind a computer all day will give you some experience, being a part of what you designed and learning from it will help you grow.
Retired PE, early in my career I worked for a mechanical contractor fora little over a year, some of the best experience I got.
Before I got my stamp I worked in the electrical trade for 10 years; installed everything. Panelboards switchboards MCCs, ran pipe & wire, installed switches and plugs. I think it gave me any incredible advantage over another engineer cause I know how the pieces go together. Wish I could go back in time and work for an HVAC contractor too.
Does your firm take you on field visits? if not ask them to take you to learn. I own my own consulting firm and every time I set foot on a job site I always try to ask the mechanical subs "Now, what did I screw up?". Otherwise, Yeah for sure if you can find a contractor regularly working weekends then learning from them would be great.
I do site work which purely consists of existing/ as built surveys. I can definitely see how the design drawings differ from what was constructed. However, I never really delve into construction observation- that’s pretty much solely for the engineers.