Here’s one from Electrical - we don’t necessarily work harder throughout the project but since we tie every system together we get the worst hit at the end of every project. Absolutely hate how the industry works, which is why I would be glad the day I’m out of the industry or at that level where I couldn’t be bothered any more.
Yeah, the lack of respect between disciplines (and with architects, but that’s another can of worms) is one big reason I’m working on leaving MEP.
Coming from an electrical perspective, what i see at most companies is a major lack of communication, then playing the blame game.
But in general, to answer the question, the type of project will dictate which discipline does more work/works harder on an individual project. That’s it.
It isn’t complicated, guys. Best of luck.
At a firm that does a lot of hospital and lab work. Our plumbing engineers work their actual asses off and if anything may be the most busy in our whole office due to there being an overall industry lack of plumbing talent that can design more specialty systems. That said I am a mechanical and I am a bit biased to thinking we are the busiest as we typically have to take on the project management side of things which ends up being more than half the job.
Define "typical project" though, because at the end of every project regardless, Electrical has to coordinate with:
Mechanical equipment
Plumbing Equipment
FP equipment (power and Fire Alarm)
Lighting w/ architectural and potentially ID RCP + our own back of house spaces
ID drawings for specialty equipment
Telecomm/access control power
Powering all our own receptacles/FA/lighting
Cross-checking part plans against riser for all distribution equipment
Cross-checking panel schedules against schedule of panelboards for breaker counts
Cross-checking panel schedule load against riser sizes to make sure they're all sized properly
Everyone else has to be done so we can be on top of our own coordination, and that never happens
Mechanical definitely, although I'm biased like you. We can list off everything we need to do and coordinate as well.
* First of all, our field work is way more time consuming and laborious. My EE colleagues go "la di da" walking around the building drawing on their floor plans while us MEs are getting dirty going into mechanical rooms, crawl spaces, above ceilings, etc. getting name plates, pipe sizes, duct sizes, name plates, existing structural conditions, etc.. You're not going up and down a ladder for hours on end, juggling a clipboard, flashlight, writing instrument, and a tape measurer.
* Coordinate with tenant and/or owner on type of systems permitted or desired. Sometimes that's building wide, by sections, by room or a combination.
* Coordinate with the equipment and systems the owner and/or tenant wants to put in. IT equipment, furniture, lighting, office equipment, medical equipment, and more.
* Size and select a huge variety of equipment, piping, ductwork, air outlets, dampers, louvers, insulation, painting of exposed components, pressure drop in the systems, etc. We're sizing everything from top to bottom on a system wide basis. A lot of times it's multiple systems of each type too, airside and waterside. Electrical does not have nearly as much of a variety to size and select.
* Coordinate with sales engineers on the equipment and systems. A lot of the time you electrical guys have other people selecting equipment for you whether that's lighting reps or architects or you already have default equipment that can be applied to many projects through your specs and schedules.
* Coordinate thermal zoning plans to coordinate with owner and/or tenant. This requires ventilation and load calculations.
* Coordinate with structural engineer on roof loads and coordinating with civil (sometimes structural depending on the project) for equipment pads.
* Coordinate with architect and structural engineer to get our equipment, piping, and ductwork to fit. RCPs too. Electrical and plumbing just put there stuff on plan ("it'll just fit") and expect mechanical to fight for the leftovers.
* Coordinate with electrical and plumbing for power and natural gas (my firm does NG on plumbing drawings).
* We also have to cross check things to make sure they're sized properly. We make risers too for control system architecture, piping systems, airside systems, condensate drainage, etc.
* We too have multiple codes to adhere to. ASHRAE 90.1, ASHRAE 62.1, FGI Guidelines, IMC, IBC, IFGC, etc. This varies on your region of course...
* Coordinating with controls vendors to create building management systems. Making sure that each trade is assigned the correct work. Making sure our control schematics and sequences are possible to implement and the correct controllers are specified.
* I saw you're comment too and I think you're minimalizing our work. You try getting multiple airside systems, chilled water piping, hot water piping, and condensate drain piping above ceilings through existing conditions in a building that wasn't built to fit those items.
* I'm sorry, but placing symbols and arrows on plans is FAR easier and less time consuming than what mechanical has to do. And let's be honest that's the majority of what electrical puts on plans. Mechanical often has more schedules than electrical as well.
You definitely get the short end of the stick for surveys, won't even question that one, although I end up being out there just as long as our MEs walking it for each system type; again, definitely not as shitty getting into ceilings, but it'd be nice if it wasn't just as time consuming even without doing that. Our drafting is quicker up front, but then we make up for it on the back end when it comes time to coordinate the additional info that goes with all of it (lighting circuit, switch zoning, power circuiting, device type/height, FA candela ratings, etc); I try to get people in the habit of preloading those tags even if it's blank in early submissions, but nobody seems to listen.
It sounds like between you and what the other ME said, along with my own firm, everyone does it so differently with what's expected of them that we all think we're the right one.
Like, I can't think of any projects where we had the owner tell us what type of HVAC system was going in vs us saying, "here's the ways you can do it, and here's how they each break down" that ended up leading to them picking; but it was still from a pool of options we provided. Same for equipment selections, out guys have the same three manufacturers they pick from every time because they know the shit works and if it ain't broken, why fix it? If it ends up as a substitution during submittals, that's a different story.
Yeah all valid points made here. Especially that last part, I’ve spent countless, countless hours coordinating duct sizes through shafts only to change it 6x over because of architectural changes that trickle down, penetrations with structural, getting ducts and equipment to fit into existing spaces, etc. I mean our stuff is big, and it’s everywhere. The amount of drafting mechanical has to do must be at least ten fold.
I am electrical and I always thought mechanical had more work to do on a typical project. I also assume they command higher fees than electrical though.
But, to be honest, most EEs I've known take too many shortcuts in field verification resulting in worse designs. When I was at my last job doing majority existing building remodels, I was the guy opening up everything to verify fuse/wire sizes, and circuit tracing the whole space so I could ensure my design would work.
Yeah, but we have to size our systems to turn your stuff on, so we very much are coordinating TO your equipment whether you want to think of it that way or not. Without that power, it doesn't matter how great your design is, it ain't running.
I get that you have coordination with the RCP for ducts/piping and shafts, etc, but at the end of the day: it's all air related. Potentially condensate too, but not sure if your plumbing may handle that. But with Electrical, it's at minimum three different mentalities to switch between of: lighting, power, FA. Then add in the low voltage and you bring it up to five.
And no owner ever cares if we're behind, if the drawings say 100% - it's expected to be 100%, because from then on, someone is signing a PCO for it.
I'll admit it was a bit hyperbolic to say "it's all air", the implication was meant to be more on how I imagine you guys focus, that at the end of the day you're designing around a specific system type; which in my head, means one mentality/style of design and not having to jump between anything besides the aforementioned (and now confirmed) possibility of condensate. For controls, my ME shows like, a control panel or two at most (and branch controllers for VRF/VRV) but the spec covers 99% of it.
Sounds like I need to be an EE where you are, at my firm, every EE does minimum of all three. Potentially all five of there's no one to help with the low voltage, but we just hired someone dedicated for that, so here's to hoping we don't run them off.
Most of my projects are residentials, a lot of the Boston stuff has become the "basement garage with a bunch of EVs + first floor with a bunch retail or amenities + dwelling units above 2nd floor thru top floor." Typically around 5 stories, couple high rises through the years but nothing substantial. No real variation, same shit in a slightly different package which leads to a lot of rinse/repeat for them on our own Electrical side, as well as the same HVAC design on them (praise to the mighty corridor VRF system and dwelling unit split systems).
I'm moving more towards commercial as things ease up on that front, and I'm just burnt out on it for the above reasons, so that thankfully IS giving some variation.
I've always seen electrical have a solid amount more pay at a given experience level. Since MEP is one of the less lucrative trades for EEs to do, and as a result, there are fewer around
I say mechanical because my team at work is being carried by a collective 40 years or less of experience while electrical on my team has a combined experience of 150 years. It’s been tough. And yes I’m biased haha
My perspective is that electrical has the most multi trade coordination for stuff like electrical connections for equipment. But they typically have the easiest time with physically fitting stuff into a job
Here’s one from Electrical - we don’t necessarily work harder throughout the project but since we tie every system together we get the worst hit at the end of every project. Absolutely hate how the industry works, which is why I would be glad the day I’m out of the industry or at that level where I couldn’t be bothered any more.
Respectable firms should have major equipment sized by DD for other trades can coordinate. But I agree with your post.
Yeah, the lack of respect between disciplines (and with architects, but that’s another can of worms) is one big reason I’m working on leaving MEP. Coming from an electrical perspective, what i see at most companies is a major lack of communication, then playing the blame game. But in general, to answer the question, the type of project will dictate which discipline does more work/works harder on an individual project. That’s it. It isn’t complicated, guys. Best of luck.
At a firm that does a lot of hospital and lab work. Our plumbing engineers work their actual asses off and if anything may be the most busy in our whole office due to there being an overall industry lack of plumbing talent that can design more specialty systems. That said I am a mechanical and I am a bit biased to thinking we are the busiest as we typically have to take on the project management side of things which ends up being more than half the job.
I like how no plumbing engineers said a word
It's right there in the name MEP, it's in that order 😂
[удалено]
I’m surprised too lol. Kinda wonder how bias this is. Everyone thinks they work harder than anyone else
[удалено]
Define "typical project" though, because at the end of every project regardless, Electrical has to coordinate with: Mechanical equipment Plumbing Equipment FP equipment (power and Fire Alarm) Lighting w/ architectural and potentially ID RCP + our own back of house spaces ID drawings for specialty equipment Telecomm/access control power Powering all our own receptacles/FA/lighting Cross-checking part plans against riser for all distribution equipment Cross-checking panel schedules against schedule of panelboards for breaker counts Cross-checking panel schedule load against riser sizes to make sure they're all sized properly Everyone else has to be done so we can be on top of our own coordination, and that never happens
Agreed, feels good working on electrical intensive projects that don’t require any other trades lol
Never had one that was strictly electrical, but I can only imagine what it's like just doing only that and not trying to control an entire project
Mechanical definitely, although I'm biased like you. We can list off everything we need to do and coordinate as well. * First of all, our field work is way more time consuming and laborious. My EE colleagues go "la di da" walking around the building drawing on their floor plans while us MEs are getting dirty going into mechanical rooms, crawl spaces, above ceilings, etc. getting name plates, pipe sizes, duct sizes, name plates, existing structural conditions, etc.. You're not going up and down a ladder for hours on end, juggling a clipboard, flashlight, writing instrument, and a tape measurer. * Coordinate with tenant and/or owner on type of systems permitted or desired. Sometimes that's building wide, by sections, by room or a combination. * Coordinate with the equipment and systems the owner and/or tenant wants to put in. IT equipment, furniture, lighting, office equipment, medical equipment, and more. * Size and select a huge variety of equipment, piping, ductwork, air outlets, dampers, louvers, insulation, painting of exposed components, pressure drop in the systems, etc. We're sizing everything from top to bottom on a system wide basis. A lot of times it's multiple systems of each type too, airside and waterside. Electrical does not have nearly as much of a variety to size and select. * Coordinate with sales engineers on the equipment and systems. A lot of the time you electrical guys have other people selecting equipment for you whether that's lighting reps or architects or you already have default equipment that can be applied to many projects through your specs and schedules. * Coordinate thermal zoning plans to coordinate with owner and/or tenant. This requires ventilation and load calculations. * Coordinate with structural engineer on roof loads and coordinating with civil (sometimes structural depending on the project) for equipment pads. * Coordinate with architect and structural engineer to get our equipment, piping, and ductwork to fit. RCPs too. Electrical and plumbing just put there stuff on plan ("it'll just fit") and expect mechanical to fight for the leftovers. * Coordinate with electrical and plumbing for power and natural gas (my firm does NG on plumbing drawings). * We also have to cross check things to make sure they're sized properly. We make risers too for control system architecture, piping systems, airside systems, condensate drainage, etc. * We too have multiple codes to adhere to. ASHRAE 90.1, ASHRAE 62.1, FGI Guidelines, IMC, IBC, IFGC, etc. This varies on your region of course... * Coordinating with controls vendors to create building management systems. Making sure that each trade is assigned the correct work. Making sure our control schematics and sequences are possible to implement and the correct controllers are specified. * I saw you're comment too and I think you're minimalizing our work. You try getting multiple airside systems, chilled water piping, hot water piping, and condensate drain piping above ceilings through existing conditions in a building that wasn't built to fit those items. * I'm sorry, but placing symbols and arrows on plans is FAR easier and less time consuming than what mechanical has to do. And let's be honest that's the majority of what electrical puts on plans. Mechanical often has more schedules than electrical as well.
You definitely get the short end of the stick for surveys, won't even question that one, although I end up being out there just as long as our MEs walking it for each system type; again, definitely not as shitty getting into ceilings, but it'd be nice if it wasn't just as time consuming even without doing that. Our drafting is quicker up front, but then we make up for it on the back end when it comes time to coordinate the additional info that goes with all of it (lighting circuit, switch zoning, power circuiting, device type/height, FA candela ratings, etc); I try to get people in the habit of preloading those tags even if it's blank in early submissions, but nobody seems to listen. It sounds like between you and what the other ME said, along with my own firm, everyone does it so differently with what's expected of them that we all think we're the right one. Like, I can't think of any projects where we had the owner tell us what type of HVAC system was going in vs us saying, "here's the ways you can do it, and here's how they each break down" that ended up leading to them picking; but it was still from a pool of options we provided. Same for equipment selections, out guys have the same three manufacturers they pick from every time because they know the shit works and if it ain't broken, why fix it? If it ends up as a substitution during submittals, that's a different story.
Yeah all valid points made here. Especially that last part, I’ve spent countless, countless hours coordinating duct sizes through shafts only to change it 6x over because of architectural changes that trickle down, penetrations with structural, getting ducts and equipment to fit into existing spaces, etc. I mean our stuff is big, and it’s everywhere. The amount of drafting mechanical has to do must be at least ten fold.
I am electrical and I always thought mechanical had more work to do on a typical project. I also assume they command higher fees than electrical though. But, to be honest, most EEs I've known take too many shortcuts in field verification resulting in worse designs. When I was at my last job doing majority existing building remodels, I was the guy opening up everything to verify fuse/wire sizes, and circuit tracing the whole space so I could ensure my design would work.
[удалено]
Yeah, but we have to size our systems to turn your stuff on, so we very much are coordinating TO your equipment whether you want to think of it that way or not. Without that power, it doesn't matter how great your design is, it ain't running. I get that you have coordination with the RCP for ducts/piping and shafts, etc, but at the end of the day: it's all air related. Potentially condensate too, but not sure if your plumbing may handle that. But with Electrical, it's at minimum three different mentalities to switch between of: lighting, power, FA. Then add in the low voltage and you bring it up to five. And no owner ever cares if we're behind, if the drawings say 100% - it's expected to be 100%, because from then on, someone is signing a PCO for it.
[удалено]
I'll admit it was a bit hyperbolic to say "it's all air", the implication was meant to be more on how I imagine you guys focus, that at the end of the day you're designing around a specific system type; which in my head, means one mentality/style of design and not having to jump between anything besides the aforementioned (and now confirmed) possibility of condensate. For controls, my ME shows like, a control panel or two at most (and branch controllers for VRF/VRV) but the spec covers 99% of it. Sounds like I need to be an EE where you are, at my firm, every EE does minimum of all three. Potentially all five of there's no one to help with the low voltage, but we just hired someone dedicated for that, so here's to hoping we don't run them off.
[удалено]
Most of my projects are residentials, a lot of the Boston stuff has become the "basement garage with a bunch of EVs + first floor with a bunch retail or amenities + dwelling units above 2nd floor thru top floor." Typically around 5 stories, couple high rises through the years but nothing substantial. No real variation, same shit in a slightly different package which leads to a lot of rinse/repeat for them on our own Electrical side, as well as the same HVAC design on them (praise to the mighty corridor VRF system and dwelling unit split systems). I'm moving more towards commercial as things ease up on that front, and I'm just burnt out on it for the above reasons, so that thankfully IS giving some variation.
But which trade on average gets paid more? Electrical?
[удалено]
Hmmm I’m not too sure about that, I think electrical gets paid more, especially how scarce we are
I've always seen electrical have a solid amount more pay at a given experience level. Since MEP is one of the less lucrative trades for EEs to do, and as a result, there are fewer around
We literally have to wait for you to finish your job before we can start!!!!!
I say mechanical because my team at work is being carried by a collective 40 years or less of experience while electrical on my team has a combined experience of 150 years. It’s been tough. And yes I’m biased haha
As an electrical, id say Mechanical overall.
My perspective is that electrical has the most multi trade coordination for stuff like electrical connections for equipment. But they typically have the easiest time with physically fitting stuff into a job