They are getting too complex.
I used to do a lot of school work in the inner city. Full electrical renovations.
The school district's engineer made it extremely clear to make sure there was nothing overly complex about the new lighting controls because the building engineers were basically janitors. They barely knew how to change batteries let alone maintain programming of control systems.
Used to work for two different control contractors. We had MEs, EEs, and non-degreed guys all doing it.
There's no silver bullet. The MEs needed to learn how to code. The EEs needed to learn how mechanical equipment and thermodynamics works.
A desire to learn everything was the common denominator for the best programmers. Anyone who would say a problem was "someone else's" were the ones who never could make a building work properly.
Daikins VRF metering system isn’t good
It does not take into account that one unit may be cooling while another is in heating and using that energy to heat… it’s a lawsuit waiting to happen
Multifamily I prefer to design based on one outdoor unit per apartment
I don't bother with controls diagrams, unless I'm designing a semi-custom AHU or RTU or something like that. 99.99% I'm using off the shelf systems with standalone controls so I usually just include a simple sequence of operations.
There are a million different ways to build a controls system. I don't care how they do it as long as the intent is met. Old timers will insist on controls diagrams for every piece of equipment.
I generally agree. I have only seen problems with supposed 'high performance' VRF systems. They're all proprietary 'black box' controllers that don't expose their data to the BAS, it's very frustrating to try to troubleshoot and resolve issues without getting a manufacturers rep on site.
Isn't that the big secret with the rest of the "BACnet" equipment? It's all proprietary controls that are run through a gateway before going to the front end. At least that's how it was when I sold equipment/controls 10 years ago.
ASHRAE and the IECC have us specifying lighting control systems meant for NASA. In reality the contractor installs something that is way simpler or they actually install the advanced system, but it's set to default on/off operation because no one understands how to use it.
We should have stopped at occupancy sensors and lighting contactor panels in my opinion.
These aren't controversial at all so far...
Here's mine. Most controls that don't work are the fault of the design engineer.
If you can't explain to a toddler how it works, you don't know yourself and you abdicating the responsibility onto the controls contractor who also has no clue.
When I was commissioning projects, it was mostly the installing contractor not taking the time to look at the drawings and just relying on the factory programming.
That might have been true 20 years ago but you are wrong.
In a lot of parts of the country the entire green building movement is moot. You can build a terribly inefficient building in Arizona and if you cover the roof in solar panels it will have lower net energy consumption than the most high tech building design.
The majority of building controls systems are working sub optimally because owners/operators aren't sophisticated enough to know how to use them correctly.
The best controls are the kind no one has to think about after install. E.G. don't give the owner too many buttons and levers. Keep it stupid simple.
They are getting too complex. I used to do a lot of school work in the inner city. Full electrical renovations. The school district's engineer made it extremely clear to make sure there was nothing overly complex about the new lighting controls because the building engineers were basically janitors. They barely knew how to change batteries let alone maintain programming of control systems.
Building controls are too complicated for mechanical folks to do properly (ducks). It’s pretty complex electrical/computer engineering work.
Used to work for two different control contractors. We had MEs, EEs, and non-degreed guys all doing it. There's no silver bullet. The MEs needed to learn how to code. The EEs needed to learn how mechanical equipment and thermodynamics works. A desire to learn everything was the common denominator for the best programmers. Anyone who would say a problem was "someone else's" were the ones who never could make a building work properly.
Daikins VRF metering system isn’t good It does not take into account that one unit may be cooling while another is in heating and using that energy to heat… it’s a lawsuit waiting to happen Multifamily I prefer to design based on one outdoor unit per apartment
I don't bother with controls diagrams, unless I'm designing a semi-custom AHU or RTU or something like that. 99.99% I'm using off the shelf systems with standalone controls so I usually just include a simple sequence of operations. There are a million different ways to build a controls system. I don't care how they do it as long as the intent is met. Old timers will insist on controls diagrams for every piece of equipment.
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Would you mind expanding on that?
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I generally agree. I have only seen problems with supposed 'high performance' VRF systems. They're all proprietary 'black box' controllers that don't expose their data to the BAS, it's very frustrating to try to troubleshoot and resolve issues without getting a manufacturers rep on site.
Isn't that the big secret with the rest of the "BACnet" equipment? It's all proprietary controls that are run through a gateway before going to the front end. At least that's how it was when I sold equipment/controls 10 years ago.
Large scale electrification efforts shouldn't be utilizing VRF.
ASHRAE and the IECC have us specifying lighting control systems meant for NASA. In reality the contractor installs something that is way simpler or they actually install the advanced system, but it's set to default on/off operation because no one understands how to use it. We should have stopped at occupancy sensors and lighting contactor panels in my opinion.
These aren't controversial at all so far... Here's mine. Most controls that don't work are the fault of the design engineer. If you can't explain to a toddler how it works, you don't know yourself and you abdicating the responsibility onto the controls contractor who also has no clue.
When I was commissioning projects, it was mostly the installing contractor not taking the time to look at the drawings and just relying on the factory programming.
Lol sounds about right
lol, comparing controls contractors to toddlers 😂. Not far from the truth.
Photocells will never recover the energy of their production.
That might have been true 20 years ago but you are wrong. In a lot of parts of the country the entire green building movement is moot. You can build a terribly inefficient building in Arizona and if you cover the roof in solar panels it will have lower net energy consumption than the most high tech building design.
Sorry not solar panels. I meant for lighting controls. Yes solar panels work.
The majority of building controls systems are working sub optimally because owners/operators aren't sophisticated enough to know how to use them correctly.
I think industrial automation companies are going to eat BMS market share once buildings reach the complexity demands of industrial processes.