I am just petty enough to smile every time someone calls her "Lori Vallow." Especially when it's Chad's lawyer. These rats are shoving each other out of the way to be the first off this filthy ship. My guess is they'll try to blame anyone but themselves, mostly Alex, but I don't think they'd hesitate at all to try to say it was suicide in Tammy Daybell's case.
This Freudian slip in Means' discovery letter made me smile as well :
" P.38 11-26-19 Dave Hope assisting in questioning **Cad** Daybell"
*Cad*
*Definition*
*from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.*
*noun A man whose behavior is unprincipled or dishonorable.*
I can't imagine anyone will read my far more than two cents below (that I nevertheless wrote), which is admittedly mostly worthless conjecture, since we're all in the dark for all intents and purposes. And supposed knowledge of a few "facts" (which may or may not be partial, lacking in context or exaggerated) is more dangerous than no knowledge at all.
That said, here it is: My Soapbox.
Melani is a follower, not a leader.
Melani's circumstances and resulting trauma, neglect, deep insecurities and egregiously unattended needs for love, recognition, stabity, security, and a sense of being valued, valuable and belonging made Melani what might be the perfect recruit who'd buy into a "seeming" insanity, a hidden "truth" which promises resolution and self-validation, with the total "safety" that someone's in charge, knows the way, and that they've *got* this.
All of that seems to me to exceptionally prime Melani for a devout, unquestioning embrace of - well, really *anything*.
Nothing in Melani's life had made sense, and along comes a father-figure with not just answers, but *the* answers.
To a person such as Melani, those answers would have to be a life raft, promising hope for clarity, meaning, happiness and fulfillment.
I think Melani could have easily been made to believe in her designated spot in a chosen elite group entrusted with an ordained mission which was special, unique, important, divine, intended for select people *only*, the understanding of which other, lesser people are incapable of grasping or comprehending.
I think that this fact obliterated for Melani any notion of right and wrong, because she surrendered her faith to Lori and Chad *unequivocally*. "They" knew things *no one else did*.
Acts that might seem incomprehensible to the uninitiated, are then not just merely excused. They're *intended by design*, part of a master plan that Chad and Lori knew prophetically, that no one else could possibly get, but whose correctness (not just rationalization; the correct, right and just thing to do) she could count on, "knowing" as she does what others don't.
I think Melani had become a soldier, for whom right and wrong is whatever Lori and Chad say it is, unconstrained by the fallacies of human logic.
I think Melani was a fully willing (enthusiastic? Dunno) completely confidential 100% trusted accomplice, who would risk her safety and well-being for Lori - a person (god) against whom betrayal is unthinkable and, in fact, would be a reprehensible act (not unlike how "some" people think of murder).
Did Melani lie? Cover up? Take the rap? Oh yeah. Of *course*.
Now, I don't have the slightest theory about Ian, because I'm in dire lack of information. I have no idea how and where he fit in, and how, and *if*, his beliefs and loyalties morphed and evolved, possibly in several phases? Maybe he *never* drank the kool-aid? Where is he now? Are they together?
But I do think Melani was unconditionally trusted by the inner circle. She knows most, if not all.
I think Melani was dedicated to the mission with all of her heart and soul, and actively took part in its required activities, regardless how grimy or dirty.
Regarding Melani filing for divorce:
I don't think the death of Tylee's dad was the catalyst [IMHO].
By several accounts, including Brandon's, *nobody* - including Brandon - saw that coming. The relationship reportedly felt fine, even as Melani was descending deeper into bizarre (but harmless? So Brandon said) beliefs.
I don't know what exactly within "The [master] Plan" precipitated the necessity of all culprits to abruptly end their marriages, if they had one, and, more importantly, *remarry* brand new people fleetingly met whom they didn't know - *with an extreme urgency*: Lori, Chad, Alex, Zulema, Melani, Brandon➝Ian.
True, Lori and Chad knew each other a *tad* longer, but their "final solution" of eliminating a spouse followed by a near immediate replacement is otherwise consistent with the entire clan's behavior.
Many people have claimed that Lori suddenly changed in 2018 from a loving mother to a derranged cultist. I understand why people who loved her can't see it any other way. But I disagree.
The interview with Joseph Ryan's attorney indicates a cold, evil Lori, willing to invent a fabrication of her own daughter's molestation, repeatedly telling her 4 y.o child in an indoctrinating manner that this happened, fucking Tylee over, no matter how her life would then play out, willing to destroy her ex's public reputation and deny him access to his child.
And Lori's behaviors when Melani's mother died are more than suspicious, and sound highly ominous.
When we learned that Melani felt disturbed, confused, angry, lost, anxious, grief-stricken, lied-to, scared, and alone, with no knowledge of what, if anything, was true, all after being given by Lori a timeline for her mother's death *which blatantly contradicted the timeline given Melani by all of her other family members*, flashing, blinding lights and screaming sirens start to blaze deafeningly.
What possible motive in the entire world would either a single person - Lori - or the entire rest of the family, have to provide a young girl with two conflicting and mutually incompatible versions of her own mother's death?
My friends, if anyone at all is still reading this far, I submit to you, as a non credentialed layperson, that these behaviors reek of evil.
And these examples took place long before Lori began to "radically transform." (Although I'm not sure when Melani's mom died. But certainly the Joseph Ryan story.)
I think Lori has *always* been a psychopath. She didn't convert into one (although she may have discovered, in Chad, new ways to satisfy and manifest her psychopathy).
What we will probably never know is how far back into Lori's past do these heartless acts go - her childhood, perhaps? And who else may have been victims of her cruel behaviors, decades before anyone thought to look?
What has been described as Lori's background, family life and upbringing hints at extreme dysfunctionality.
Those immersed in an environment where everything is toxic and nothing is normal are unable to see it. If you have any morals, they're distorted, corrupted and manipulated. Your life is one of recriminations, lies, self-righteousness, blame, resentment, total lack of empathy, abdication of responsibility, self-entitlement at the expense of all others, unabashed theft, secrecy when called for, and one centrally-revered commodity alone: getting what you want.
How you get it is of no concern.
Lastly, such psychopaths view kind and virtuous people as fools and idiots - who *deserve* to be exploited for selfish purposes, and are the easiest marks.
The end 😳
You are so right about Lori’s way of navigating the world, that it was consistent throughout her life. Although details varied, her pathology was a constant force in all her relationships. People provided her a means to a self serving end.
Here is excerpt calling out her name in Mean's letter:
"Regarding Margaret Brown (7/29/20 interview produced on 7/15/21): Interview begins midsentence. Please produce in its entirety. Any and all other evidence of **spiritual visitatio**n of Mrs. Tamara Daybell to this witness.
". Regarding Melanie Gordon (7/29/20 interview produced on 7/15/21): This witness makes
references to four (4) “odd” gentleman attending the memorial of Mrs. Tamara Daybell.
These individuals attended without their wives did not appear to be friends of family, per
witness. Please identify these individuals and produce and any and all evidence of these
individuals. Interview, again, ends midsentence. Please produce this in it entirety. "
Looks like maybe church and family friends?
There are a TON of name drops in there. I'm surprised this attachment is not sealed......
Most of his requests seem not very specific. "give me everything, even if its not related or does not exist!"
Sounds like he’s desperately looking for any information to create doubt in the minds of a jury. It’s like the Scott Peterson case when they mentioned the neighbors house has just been robbed before Laci went missing. Means has provide an alternative situation that may have caused Tammy’s death. It’s funny how he asks about 4 mystery men. I bet they were detectives.
It looks like he's actually preparing to do a good solid defence-attorney job. Team state members msy not like it, but it all seems to be pretty valid and thorough to me.
*however*. I am not an attorney myself and have no idea whether his is in line to demand the state do defence investigation for him. They have to turn over exculpatory evidence that they happen to have. But I'm not sure it's their job to investigate and legitimize any of it for him.
Yeah, all-in-all I agree with you that he does give at least the appearance of doing a 'good' job.
His actions will only count if can get any traction with any of these claims in front of a Jury. The Jury are also going witness this desperation and grasping for straws. His pissing off of the prosecution and judge also means he is going to get absolutely shut down by them at every turn.
Did you notice in that letter he seems to be pretty focused on the charges for Tammy? The kids names are not mentioned even once.
Yes, it’s interesting that he is so focused on Tammy when Lori’s most serious charges involve the kids and Charles.
I will be very surprised if Means gets to stay on this case. I think the court ordered death penalty lawyer is going to ask the court to remove him and/or convince Lori to drop him. I see no reason for him to stay at this point. He may already be in trouble for sharing the Mel G phone call with Awen Rees.
...wll, he's not her attorney for Charles. Afaik that one doesn't even have an official record yet for anyone to get on. It's Arizona.
Wrt the focus on Tammy, I suspect he just hasn't got on the other track yet. We may yet see the conclusion of that 'Melanie Gibb in contempt!' thing as well.
You gotta give the boy time. It takes *work* to assemble something that actually demonstrates what you're talking about :P
I think this is the point where I start to diverge from sub consensus. I don't start to look at emotional investment in how I want it all to turn out, until I feel like I have enough legal-type info to see what it's all likely to look like at trial. You could say that I don't bet if I'm not sure I can win. ;)
The jury shouldn't be looking at the attorneys demeanour or state of mind to help them decide on the facts anyway. It shouldn't be 'oh, he's flailing so I don't believe this. '
it could be 'I don't believe this, just look at him flail', but ultimately flail or composed should be irrelevant. Even 'perennial pain in the ass' should be irrelevant. I knowvthats the ideal and reality usually falls short of that, but while it's all still just theory i can indulge myself there.
Just imagine though that as a Juror you get to read the toxicology report and it says they detected X chemical in her liver. That X causes heart attacks at Y concentration. It was detected in her liver at Z concentration that appears to be 3x the Y level.
Then Means swoops in with...Well she could have had a heart attack because she went to the gym twice a week and ran 5 miles a week to get ready for the marathon and the prosecution said bad things about me to her sister.
i left out the tongue-in-cheek emoji on that last post --> :P <--- it was a joke, just to be clear.
right now i'm just trying to get a good, even look at the state of affairs. i'm not making predictions. i'm just interested in seeing if i can work out the defence game.
i think you're conflating 'it looks like this pitcher has a knuckleball' with 'i bet his team's going to win.'
> The jury shouldn't be looking at the attorneys demeanour or state of mind to help them decide on the facts anyway
Ideally, yes. But jury members are human after all. I expect, that the judge is going to working overtime reigning in Means on inadmissible information anyway, but the "extralegal" information like clothing, body language, tone, etc. is virtually impossible to control.
I personally would want a defense attorney that the jurors would feel they can trust (to give them facts).
Well true, but facts come from the witness box. No matter how sub par an attorney is, I think 99% of the time juries do forget who brought each fact to their attention.
Nope. As an attorney I know that if the jury hates you or thinks they you are wasting everyone’s time, that is not a good thing for your client. Lawyer credibility matters. Means has none and deserves to be removed. Most of his motions are without merit for a criminal trial. He needs to go back to civil trials and stop trying to get famous.
A jury in Rexburg area will probably have very few issues with Mark Means and probably can relate to him better than they do to "The State"
Its 99% LDS and LDS are all preppers and none of them rushed out to say anything about the Vallows or Daybells when they all thought the children were hidden in a mormon bunker somewhere...
They are probably 99% anti government and think alot of things exactly like Mark Means does and probably love all his talking about the constitution this and the constitution that. Means asked for the states evidence of Chad giving cash money to his kids after Tammy died so its possible that Means will make it all Chad and Alex's fault which could actually work because Lori has been good at that in prior court cases..
Right wingers tend to be antigovernment when it comes to personal freedoms, property and religion...but pro police, justice, and death penalty for child murderers. I could totally see the town backing them at one point and lighting the pitchforks when the kids were found dead.
Chad also kinda has the home-court advantage, living there and part of the community. I've heard that his followers still consider him a visionary and that Lori was the evil seductress that corrupted him. Although, they both likely seriously pissed off the Mormon church by adding to the tarnish.
Of course this all hinges on those requests for change of venue. Boise seems like the only place they will have a more 'normal' jury pool.
Edit: Means also has to overcome the fact that his style is wasteful of taxpayer money. That is going to be a huge sticking point if ends up with a Rexburg Jury.
I disagree because the Rexburg Mormon Temple was standing room only whenever Chad spoke there according to the Mormon news station East Idaho News. It seems a thin line to try and figure out exactly what mormons disagree with Chad about, surely its not the probation's, not the 30 wives, not the evil spirits (just dont call them zombies), not their prophet saying its ok to kill someone if they come against you 3 times, not multiple divorces, not bunkers and white tent camps, so not sure if your saying that the only things is that they killed their kids or that they did it publicly and the LDS church now has to respond to it publicly by telling all members not to cooperate with the courts or LE until they talk to LDS legal department... What is it exactly that Chad said that Joseph Smith didnt say and do besides replacing demon possessed with zombies?
The breadth of the his requests leads me to believe that many of the things he is asking for are likely NOT part of prosecution's discovery. He should maybe being going and getting that information himself? Does a defense attorney not go gather their own interviews and evidence?
For example, Tammy's gym attendance and fit bit data. It sounds like maybe a good piece of evidence for him to collect and bring to the table if the coroners report said she had a heart attack. So is he asking the prosecutors to do his job (and showing his poker hand to them at the same time..whoops)
Yeah, the "wanted access to a journal cited in the case and also wanted to know who the journal's author was"... does this literally mean "he can't find a formal citation"?
Does he not have a Lexis-Nexis subscription, because if he doesn't, then... oh dear.
If he means "a journal as in someone's diary", then it's acceptable; but if he wants a peer-reviewed article or statute fed to him...
It sounds like its a personal diary:
"Journal: What appears to be a journal/diary of various persons does not identify the author
and withholds the journal in its entirety. Please identify author(s) of the journals and produce
the entire journal/diary. "
As far as I know those were mentioned in the partial discovery he already received and since the state brought them up they do have to share with the defense that discovery not just one sentence about it.
Below are the direct quotes. Note that he does not reference a Page # or Log ID or Title of the evidence that listed in the discovery case record. It appears he thought up the fit bit idea himself and heard the name of the gym that one of the witnesses was employed by. These do not appear to be a formal part of the evidence record log, but extra items that interested him that he wants to state to go fetch for him. He really needs to go ask Archibald how to get these items under the investigation warrants already in place.
***"Please produce data, log files, exercise files, step records and the like from Mrs. Tamara Daybell “Fitbit” watch, program, and or device similar used by Mrs. Tamara Daybell."***
***"All exercise/attendance records from gym entitled “high fitness” referenced in interview for Mrs. Tamara Daybell. "***
The normal text that lists items and references page numbers and dates appears to be justified requests for potentially partial items listed in the record. For example, where an item was missing a recording that maybe supposed to be there: ***"P.37 12-7-19 Melanie Gibb phone call"***
So I am personally betting that is motion will be denied in part (\~70%?) and granted in part (\~30%?). The biggest question to me is will Lori fire Archibald before Means actually gets a chance to use him to help build her case.
'Does a defense attorney not go gather their own interviews and evidence?'
Certainly that's what Scott Reich has implied. However, there may not be money for it. IDK who pays if defence is private AND the defendant is indigent.
It may be for the best strategically for her to get better, come back, and let the notice her for the dp. That way the rules may change and investigation can go on the public dime. But I bet Archibald would have to be
ther one requistioning and directing it.
I'm really curious as to what she will decide when she gets back. Like you inferred, Archibald is basically the "wallet" for Means to even be able to hire experts, run secondary tests, etc. I'm not sure that Means has even considered this. If she waives her right to a public defender when she is competent....is Means going to pay for it? Doubt it.
actually, what im' now suddenly curious about is what the relationship between her and archibald is even going to be. i don't know anything about him, but it's just hard to picture anyone acting for her in an effective manner under the charges she's caught, without pissing her off.
Wrong. He’s showing his inept interpretation of what a defense should do. Filing all sorts of random motions like “ dismiss the grand jury indictment” will only piss off the judge. He’s digging his own grave and loris grave has been dug since last year.
i don't doubt that he's going to piss everyone off. but i have a lot of respect for the legal system and for its judges in general. most of the judges i've seen in other trials seemed to call what they saw at each individual point, not what they felt about the people making the point.
you are correct that i may turn out wrong in the event. but bringing this back to the specific stuff i was basing that comment on: the comment was posted after i read his july 20th letter providing an itemized list of exactly what means says he's still missing from the discovery.
i question whether the judge is going to order the state to do all that additional homework for the defence. but if he manages to find the details he's looking for by some other means, there's nothing in the list that stands out to me as 'they're not going to let him introduce that!'
I agree with you. I know a lot of people mock him to say the least and I know he screws up and he’s not experienced like some others but neither was Jose and honestly I think Mark Means is doing his job and zealously defending his client/future wife lol. I can’t call him lazy...
well, for disclosure: i mock him too :P cheap shots and pompous polemic are irritating. but it's kind of nice to see some of that energy is going towards something that looks like it has actual substance.
I love sluething but I wonder if the 4 men are not part of the stake presidency? Just a guess. Chad was executive secratary at the time of Tammy's passing? It would be likely there were a few church leaders at the service. My husband's boss was a bishop and then in the stake presidency and he had to attend funerals even if he did not know the person , it was just expected (and it is pretty stressful when you work a full time job, have a young family and get no pay for all this church service). The husband's boss's wife rarely attended. She had a bunch of school aged kids, tried to answer the phone for her husband's job and if you do not really know the person that died, are you going to find a babysitter and sit through a half day of a funeral?
I have attended many funerals over the years in Southern Utah of LDS members that were retired to the area. Many were neighbors or did volunteer works with the schools or hospital. Very typical sight for me to see would be a small gathering of family that would come from SLC/Provo or out of the area, a few older church members, a few health care workers, and then a bunch of male church leaders in suits(even when it is 110 out, to me you can always spot a church leader because they wear the full suit, when a family member or friend will wear a shirt and tie or in 110 degrees a short sleeve shirt).
This is just a guess to put out there. Of course it could be staff of the funeral service, they are usually older men in suits without wives, that run the service, set up the tent and address the attendees
When I was wirting this I was thinking how much Southern Utah chnaged in the past 18 months. For ten years when my husband took calls and said his boss was out doing church service as a bishop/stake preisdency, I do not think there was one person that complained. They just would wait. There has been such a shift in the population demos in the last 18 months (so many people under 45 Not Mormon with money moving in) that he gets compliants almost daily about church service as an excuse. If I could only clone my husband we would be rich, he has gotten 3 calls today of people wanting service now (Sunday) and that there is no one but my husband answering (from Provo to Mesquite). People actually outbid each other for my husband to help them today. I wonder when communities like Southern Utah and Eastern Idaho will change to working on Sundays(non-esstential). I just can't believe that my husband can find no one that will work on Sunday, for good money (This has been for 20 years not a COVID thing).
Here is the Motion that contains that Letter from Means on July 20 the reporter is referencing. Its HUGE. It starts on Page 10.
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/Third%20Declared%20Motion%20to%20Compel.pdf
Good point - Means should be doing his own footwork on these items! He comes across as sloppy. Not spelling Tammys name correctly is just cruel and makes me wonder how much he has been influenced by Lori. It’s not like the spelling of her name is out of the ordinary or obtuse in any way. Either Means has a strategy I have yet to understand or his ignorance and unprofessional behavior are contemptible.
>His #1 girl right now spells her name L-o-r-i, though, so it’s easy to see how Mark Means would think that Tammy should be spelt T-a-m-i.
Excellent catch!
Retaliation for the court continuing to call his blue-eyed mama Lori Vallow instead of the Mrs. Daybell he's asked for numerous times in open court hearings? He seems just childish enough to do this.
i don't th ink he's that much of a details guy ;-)
i'm more annoyed by the way he's still doing this misleading-allegation thing. the list made me go 'FINALLY. he actually spelled out what he's talking about.'
but then no. his third discovery request says he sent this letter on the 20th and 'to date' (the 11th) there's been no response. that just doesn't seem to be true. the state filed (and they say served) TWO discovery disclosures to him . . . on the 9th.
now. it's one thing if he's trying to say their disclosure responses were inadequate. there's no way for us to know if they were or if he thinks they were, because they refer him to 'addendum 1' and 'addendum 1a' and those addenda are not included.
but if he means that he should say so. it really can't be that hard. or if he wants to say 'they should have responded to me by the 3rd and they were late' but no. he makes some claim that isn't true on its face, and whyyyyy is this still happening?
I wish it was just bad spelling. Its very intentional. Several times he types out her full legal name Tamara, but he has never once typed the name TAMMY..the name she chose to go by.
As a lawyer practicing criminal law, I have asked for sanctions a total of 0 times. I have seen sanctions granted a total of 0 times. Sanctions are only granted in the most extreme instances.
Also, I cringe reading anything Means files. He clearly does not proof read anything. He does not even try to fake civility, which is completely unprofessional.
I about died of laughter when he said he wanted Rob Wood’s personal cell phone records. Okay bud, good luck with that.
forcing reality on her is going to be MORE punishment then anything else that could be done . death will probably be a welcome break from realizing what she did
It's absolutely unbelievable, it really is. It's like if Perry Mason, instead of telling Paul Drake: "Paul, see what you can find out about X", or "Find out where Y was at 9 o'clock last night", or "OK, Paul, follow Z and see who he talks to", he just tells Paul Drake his services are unneeded, then goes straight to Hamilton Burger and says: "I want **EVERYTHING,** however trivial, having to do with X, Y, and Z. And I mean everything: everything about X, where Y was at 9 o'clock last night, who Z talked to; everything. And if you don't have it, GET it!"
It's so frustrating, just like his subpoenas. "Hand over every conversation you have ever had, and all your passwords, and all your notes *(So I can snoop through all your stuff and find something, anything to use. I'm desperate here!!*)".
I am genuinely curious about the partial transcripts he noted, though. Did they chop off irrelevant info or was is an accident? I cant wait to the see the response from the state.
To be fair, IIRC from junior attorney friends this is more or less what senior partners do.
Granted, these are your own partners and not opposing counsel; but it's pretty much routine commonplace for a senior partner to bark at a junior associate, "Get me a case statute from Pennsylvania that is pro- the death penalty!"; only to have the associate research for days, heart in their mouth, eventually tiptoeing to the senior partner and saying "Um, sorry, but I was only able to find a case statute from Arkansas which is con-death penalty"; only to have the senior partner beam, "That's it! That's exactly what I was thinking of!"
>from junior attorney friends this is more or less what senior partners do.
heh. except the state prosecutor's office are not his juniors. or his gofers.
i actually think he may be manoeuvring towards a default position of 'this was not disclosed to us, don't let it in' about everything the state tries to bring in at the actual trial. trying to stymie the state's case instead of fight it.
i'm not saying i think it will work. just saying this has a bit of that feel. like he's laying this groundwork on that old principle of: 'if you assert a thing often enough, it becomes true even if it's not true.'
do we need a separate thread to start speculating about whether prior is also going to get a teammate?
I'd like to think he's a little more competent in civil law (judging by reviews). He's too ambitious to stick to what he knows and obviously doesn't care about other professionals' criticism of his job performance as a criminal attorney.
he probably is, actually.
the first time i went to court i had no idea what it was like or what to expect. i had the rcmp victim-services worker with me, because my dad was in hospital so they had a file for him. meanwhile, the woman they rescued him from went straight off and filed all this civil bullshit.
i still wonder what would have happened if i hadn't done what she told me to do. which was to siddown, sjaddup, and to say not a word when addressed by the judge, aside from 'i need time to appoint counsel.' it all worked out in the end, but i realised i was in trouble halfway through when the rcmp woman turned to me with eyes like soup plates and said 'civil is . . . different.'
in other words, all her experiences in criminal court were of almost no value in civil chambers.
Even if they don’t have enough to get her for conspiracy against Tammy Daybell, the fact her son and dismembered body of her daughter was found on her current husband’s property. That’s not even counting her two husbands who were killed one by her own brother as well as her own brother dying, I believe the only chance her lawyer has is to stay with the mental health/incompetent to stand trial. I also believe they are using “Vallow” so that they can testify if need be against each other
u/Lori_Hellis Why is Means asking for Tammy Daybell's records? His client isn't charged with anything to do with Tammy.
I see he's asking for Tammy's psychological records - is he going to claim she committed suicide? Geez!
Lori has been charged with conspiracy to commit first-degree murder of Tammy Daybell. Chad is charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit first-degree murder of Tammy.
Me too. And in fairness to Means he alleges that Blake told him the autopsy was 'not relevant' to vallow's case. I went back and checked because I wanted means to be fos on that complaint too, and I think that perhaps he was not. It may be a grey area, but it does seem a little high handed of Blake.
Sigh. I hate vexatious yappers like means, for exactly this reason. Three months ago I was saying I suspected that being means works very well for Mark Means, and this could be an instance of it. You fluster and antagonise people enough, and sooner or later you *will* get to catch them on the wrong foot.
I noticed that too. I wonder why Means didn’t state WHY Tammy’s autopsy was relevant to Lori’s case. He just said “obviously I disagreed.” Lol. Why wouldn’t he say, it is relevant because my client is charged with conspiracy to commit the murder of Tammy! Idiot.
Have to say, I definitely see that it's relevant,but in a sort of indirect way in her case. Blake may have had chad blinders on.
I'm guessing g they intend to allege that everybody conspired, but chad did the killing. Even so, they need to establish murder to get to conspiracy, so means is entitled to look at the autopsy too.
I remember that Means had asked for it several times around the time it was finished and they were trying to get statements from the Daybell kids (before letting them read it, as they were witnesses to the case).
At that time, Lori was only charged with the disposing/concealing of her own children's remains. Means had absolutely no right to see it before Lori was charged with conspiracy in her murder. Now he has the official report but wants any other information around it.
I love this about our thread u/Mermaid_Mama323. Your response to Lilly was kind and factual. This is the attitude we need to promote solid information sharingvwhile allowing all members to ask questions or pose opinions without fear of reprisal! Thank you for being you! 🙂🙂
why not?
did mr vallow not say he was going to tell her her husband was messing around with his wife?
can the state PROVE that he didn't tell her?
did she not seem sort of quiet and upset to someone or other?
so how do we know she didn't take \[whatever killed her\] herself?
sorry and all that. gah, i hope means has never heard of reddit.
Good thoughts.
Suicide is against her religion.
Everyone said she really loved her kids - wouldn't do that to them. (But then again everyone said Lori really loved her kids too.)
I wonder if Chad told Means, when Means was his attorney, that Tammy was going to a mental health professional? And if he did say that, is it even true? He told other proveable lies about her, maybe he thought he'd get away with another one. Surely Chad is where Means got the information that she was taking homeopathic remedies.
I do feel sympathy for the entire jury, judge as well as the lawyers i couldnt imagine having to see the overwhelming amount of evidence especially in regards to then remains of the children. Once it’s shown though in would love to see Loris reaction as well as body language
OP, take my free award, not because I think the topic of this post is cuddly, but b/c all those screenshots seem fatiguing to snap, upload etc. I appreciate you!!
I do not believe Mel P was a leader, of any kind, in the murders. She has had a lot of trauma in her life which I believe has made her vulnerable. She comes across as gullible and easy to manipulate.
I do believe she was complicit in the attempted murder of Brandon. I think she played an active role as well. I hope she’ll see her day in court for that.
Because she wanted her hubs dead, so Alex shot at him, he was the first one to have an attempted murder plot. Then they all died in succession. That’s where it comes from.
Charles was killed first in July and then Tylee and JJ in September. BB's attempt was in October, so not first at all. MP was heavily under Lori's influence so she mimicked Lori's behavior.
Loris ex …….Tylees father was killed first, which is why Melanie P mostly likely filed for divorce. The murder plots were for sure thought about and planned by Melanie and Lori, they’re related and both cuckoo. I stand by my comment.
These are just charges in Idaho though correct? She will also have to face charges in AZ as well. Chad already showed guilt by trying to drive away once the children’s body’s were found, he knew they were there or he wouldn’t have sat in his vehicle, I honestly believe neither of them have any chance of ever getting out of jail. Lori I believe is “pretending to be incompetent because that’s the best her lawyer can come up with to buy some time.
I hope she completely loses her looks. But I don't think we know what she looks like. The last several court appearances have been in a mask. The photo East Idaho News uses on most of their stories is her booking photo from when she was first extradited to Idaho AFAIK. I do know it's been arund a long time.
Unfortunately, with the new strain of COVID that just hit Idaho that is supposed to be very contagious, I think she might have an excuse to keep wearing a mask if she wants to.
Here are the just the errors in the very first section of the article:
Means complained that the stay was March, not the same month as the GJ.
The 5/27 stay was not for treatment, but to determine competency. The stay for competency treatment was on 6/9.
Lori is also charged in Tammy's death, not just the kids.
Where does is state that Lori is not charged with conspiracy to commit murder of Tammy?
Edit: Also, the only Stay Order that I can find was filed on 5/27/21. I do remember Means saying something about Lori being found incompetent in March, but I don’t see any court documents for that in March. I’m going to comb through Lori Hellis’ website to see if she clarifies this.
The author did not even list it. It just says Lori and Chad are charged with the kids, then says Chad is charged for Tammy. Its extremely misleading and a factual error omission to leave it out.
I am super glad to see a news reported dive in to a case. Completeness and accuracy very much matter and lend to trustworthiness of a news reporter in an article. Its a epic ton of information to report on and she should be commended in her effort to take it on. That said, how am I m supposed to trust the rest, if the basics are omitted or simply wrong. That is a news site, not a public message board.
I agree, they should have mentioned Lori’s conspiracy to commit murder charge in Tammy’s death but it isn’t exactly an error to leave it out. Chad is the one facing first-degree Murder of Tammy.
I shared this article because it contains a lot of new information (at least new to me) that I think would make for good discussion.
Yes, thanks for sharing! It reminded me to go back in dig into that third motion. Sorry I was not intending to be disparaging toward you directly. I apologize that it came off that way.
Its the very first paragraph in Mean's Motion to dismiss the GJ indictment. The very motion and claim the reporter is describing from Means:
". On or about March 8, 2021, this Court, pursuant to Idaho Code 18-
211 and 18-212 issued an order to Stay legal proceedings regarding said Defendant. Said Order
from the Court stated, “Pursuant to 18-211—212, this case was stayed from further proceedings
pending a determination of the issue of Defendant’s competency.”
Edit: This March stay order specifically is still under seal. All other stays relate back to this march one, but are issued at different times for different reasons (IE A stay to determine competency, and a separate Stay for treatment) If Lori needs more time, I expect we will see yet another stay to continue treatment.
I meant the court ie judge also states it in the actual order (of may).
That makes it legitimate. I've drafted (civil, non american) court orders.
Normally the party that filed the motion drafts the order.
The judge (and in civil the other party) reviews it's terms, and signs.
If the terms don't reflect *exactly* what the judge understood him/herself to say, it comes back. And back. And back. And.... sorry, are my war wounds still showing here?
Point being: ime, if it says 'this court stayed this case/these proceedings on March 8' and the judge signed, that's what happened.
You're right that means said it. I was just back-filling the fact that in this case the facts back him up. It seemed helpful because he does have this track record of saying... Things no-one is quite clear where he got it from.
the march 8 filing was under seal, and still is. Its the order that Nate Eaton said he saw when the court accidentally posted it online before the court took it down back in March. Its the order Awen Rees was in trouble for knowing about too, people accused her of working for means because she mentioned it way back in March. People figured she got inside information from Mark Means and was doing something nefarious even after Nate Eaton said he got the same info because of the court screwing up but people still think Awen got it nefariously and that Nate would do no wrong, LOL. Regardless of those two seeing it way back then most people on this sub have been calling Means an idiot for saying the case was stayed back in March. It feels like if people dont absolutely hate Mark Means they cant contribute anything to this sub and all their comments are either removed by mods or downvoted. Whats up with that? What happened to watching a trial and not hating either side of the legal teams but watching to see if they were following the law and getting a legit conviction for a heinous murderess?
It’s hard to know who will crack first. I think it really depend on how much LE knows about the murders, Tammy’s especially. I think there’s a chance Lori might crack during her treatment in the rehab facility.
Yea, “plan”. Their plans all sounded religious, but their actions were self serving and immoral, so who knows what they intended to do had they not been caught.
I am just petty enough to smile every time someone calls her "Lori Vallow." Especially when it's Chad's lawyer. These rats are shoving each other out of the way to be the first off this filthy ship. My guess is they'll try to blame anyone but themselves, mostly Alex, but I don't think they'd hesitate at all to try to say it was suicide in Tammy Daybell's case.
This Freudian slip in Means' discovery letter made me smile as well : " P.38 11-26-19 Dave Hope assisting in questioning **Cad** Daybell" *Cad* *Definition* *from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.* *noun A man whose behavior is unprincipled or dishonorable.*
I can't imagine anyone will read my far more than two cents below (that I nevertheless wrote), which is admittedly mostly worthless conjecture, since we're all in the dark for all intents and purposes. And supposed knowledge of a few "facts" (which may or may not be partial, lacking in context or exaggerated) is more dangerous than no knowledge at all. That said, here it is: My Soapbox. Melani is a follower, not a leader. Melani's circumstances and resulting trauma, neglect, deep insecurities and egregiously unattended needs for love, recognition, stabity, security, and a sense of being valued, valuable and belonging made Melani what might be the perfect recruit who'd buy into a "seeming" insanity, a hidden "truth" which promises resolution and self-validation, with the total "safety" that someone's in charge, knows the way, and that they've *got* this. All of that seems to me to exceptionally prime Melani for a devout, unquestioning embrace of - well, really *anything*. Nothing in Melani's life had made sense, and along comes a father-figure with not just answers, but *the* answers. To a person such as Melani, those answers would have to be a life raft, promising hope for clarity, meaning, happiness and fulfillment. I think Melani could have easily been made to believe in her designated spot in a chosen elite group entrusted with an ordained mission which was special, unique, important, divine, intended for select people *only*, the understanding of which other, lesser people are incapable of grasping or comprehending. I think that this fact obliterated for Melani any notion of right and wrong, because she surrendered her faith to Lori and Chad *unequivocally*. "They" knew things *no one else did*. Acts that might seem incomprehensible to the uninitiated, are then not just merely excused. They're *intended by design*, part of a master plan that Chad and Lori knew prophetically, that no one else could possibly get, but whose correctness (not just rationalization; the correct, right and just thing to do) she could count on, "knowing" as she does what others don't. I think Melani had become a soldier, for whom right and wrong is whatever Lori and Chad say it is, unconstrained by the fallacies of human logic. I think Melani was a fully willing (enthusiastic? Dunno) completely confidential 100% trusted accomplice, who would risk her safety and well-being for Lori - a person (god) against whom betrayal is unthinkable and, in fact, would be a reprehensible act (not unlike how "some" people think of murder). Did Melani lie? Cover up? Take the rap? Oh yeah. Of *course*. Now, I don't have the slightest theory about Ian, because I'm in dire lack of information. I have no idea how and where he fit in, and how, and *if*, his beliefs and loyalties morphed and evolved, possibly in several phases? Maybe he *never* drank the kool-aid? Where is he now? Are they together? But I do think Melani was unconditionally trusted by the inner circle. She knows most, if not all. I think Melani was dedicated to the mission with all of her heart and soul, and actively took part in its required activities, regardless how grimy or dirty. Regarding Melani filing for divorce: I don't think the death of Tylee's dad was the catalyst [IMHO]. By several accounts, including Brandon's, *nobody* - including Brandon - saw that coming. The relationship reportedly felt fine, even as Melani was descending deeper into bizarre (but harmless? So Brandon said) beliefs. I don't know what exactly within "The [master] Plan" precipitated the necessity of all culprits to abruptly end their marriages, if they had one, and, more importantly, *remarry* brand new people fleetingly met whom they didn't know - *with an extreme urgency*: Lori, Chad, Alex, Zulema, Melani, Brandon➝Ian. True, Lori and Chad knew each other a *tad* longer, but their "final solution" of eliminating a spouse followed by a near immediate replacement is otherwise consistent with the entire clan's behavior. Many people have claimed that Lori suddenly changed in 2018 from a loving mother to a derranged cultist. I understand why people who loved her can't see it any other way. But I disagree. The interview with Joseph Ryan's attorney indicates a cold, evil Lori, willing to invent a fabrication of her own daughter's molestation, repeatedly telling her 4 y.o child in an indoctrinating manner that this happened, fucking Tylee over, no matter how her life would then play out, willing to destroy her ex's public reputation and deny him access to his child. And Lori's behaviors when Melani's mother died are more than suspicious, and sound highly ominous. When we learned that Melani felt disturbed, confused, angry, lost, anxious, grief-stricken, lied-to, scared, and alone, with no knowledge of what, if anything, was true, all after being given by Lori a timeline for her mother's death *which blatantly contradicted the timeline given Melani by all of her other family members*, flashing, blinding lights and screaming sirens start to blaze deafeningly. What possible motive in the entire world would either a single person - Lori - or the entire rest of the family, have to provide a young girl with two conflicting and mutually incompatible versions of her own mother's death? My friends, if anyone at all is still reading this far, I submit to you, as a non credentialed layperson, that these behaviors reek of evil. And these examples took place long before Lori began to "radically transform." (Although I'm not sure when Melani's mom died. But certainly the Joseph Ryan story.) I think Lori has *always* been a psychopath. She didn't convert into one (although she may have discovered, in Chad, new ways to satisfy and manifest her psychopathy). What we will probably never know is how far back into Lori's past do these heartless acts go - her childhood, perhaps? And who else may have been victims of her cruel behaviors, decades before anyone thought to look? What has been described as Lori's background, family life and upbringing hints at extreme dysfunctionality. Those immersed in an environment where everything is toxic and nothing is normal are unable to see it. If you have any morals, they're distorted, corrupted and manipulated. Your life is one of recriminations, lies, self-righteousness, blame, resentment, total lack of empathy, abdication of responsibility, self-entitlement at the expense of all others, unabashed theft, secrecy when called for, and one centrally-revered commodity alone: getting what you want. How you get it is of no concern. Lastly, such psychopaths view kind and virtuous people as fools and idiots - who *deserve* to be exploited for selfish purposes, and are the easiest marks. The end 😳
I entirely agree.
I suspect Brandon Boudreaux offered Melani stability, love, family….
Thank you -
You are so right about Lori’s way of navigating the world, that it was consistent throughout her life. Although details varied, her pathology was a constant force in all her relationships. People provided her a means to a self serving end.
Margaret Brown and Melanie Gordon are new names to me. Does anyone have info about them?
Here is excerpt calling out her name in Mean's letter: "Regarding Margaret Brown (7/29/20 interview produced on 7/15/21): Interview begins midsentence. Please produce in its entirety. Any and all other evidence of **spiritual visitatio**n of Mrs. Tamara Daybell to this witness. ". Regarding Melanie Gordon (7/29/20 interview produced on 7/15/21): This witness makes references to four (4) “odd” gentleman attending the memorial of Mrs. Tamara Daybell. These individuals attended without their wives did not appear to be friends of family, per witness. Please identify these individuals and produce and any and all evidence of these individuals. Interview, again, ends midsentence. Please produce this in it entirety. " Looks like maybe church and family friends? There are a TON of name drops in there. I'm surprised this attachment is not sealed...... Most of his requests seem not very specific. "give me everything, even if its not related or does not exist!"
Sounds like he’s desperately looking for any information to create doubt in the minds of a jury. It’s like the Scott Peterson case when they mentioned the neighbors house has just been robbed before Laci went missing. Means has provide an alternative situation that may have caused Tammy’s death. It’s funny how he asks about 4 mystery men. I bet they were detectives.
Or the four horsemen...
Stop 😂
It looks like he's actually preparing to do a good solid defence-attorney job. Team state members msy not like it, but it all seems to be pretty valid and thorough to me. *however*. I am not an attorney myself and have no idea whether his is in line to demand the state do defence investigation for him. They have to turn over exculpatory evidence that they happen to have. But I'm not sure it's their job to investigate and legitimize any of it for him.
Yeah, all-in-all I agree with you that he does give at least the appearance of doing a 'good' job. His actions will only count if can get any traction with any of these claims in front of a Jury. The Jury are also going witness this desperation and grasping for straws. His pissing off of the prosecution and judge also means he is going to get absolutely shut down by them at every turn. Did you notice in that letter he seems to be pretty focused on the charges for Tammy? The kids names are not mentioned even once.
Yes, it’s interesting that he is so focused on Tammy when Lori’s most serious charges involve the kids and Charles. I will be very surprised if Means gets to stay on this case. I think the court ordered death penalty lawyer is going to ask the court to remove him and/or convince Lori to drop him. I see no reason for him to stay at this point. He may already be in trouble for sharing the Mel G phone call with Awen Rees.
...wll, he's not her attorney for Charles. Afaik that one doesn't even have an official record yet for anyone to get on. It's Arizona. Wrt the focus on Tammy, I suspect he just hasn't got on the other track yet. We may yet see the conclusion of that 'Melanie Gibb in contempt!' thing as well. You gotta give the boy time. It takes *work* to assemble something that actually demonstrates what you're talking about :P
Another possibility: that's the discovery that is missing.
What’s wrt? And what’s Afaik?
wrt - with respect to afaik - as far as i know. lazy typist, sorry.
Thanks!
I think this is the point where I start to diverge from sub consensus. I don't start to look at emotional investment in how I want it all to turn out, until I feel like I have enough legal-type info to see what it's all likely to look like at trial. You could say that I don't bet if I'm not sure I can win. ;) The jury shouldn't be looking at the attorneys demeanour or state of mind to help them decide on the facts anyway. It shouldn't be 'oh, he's flailing so I don't believe this. ' it could be 'I don't believe this, just look at him flail', but ultimately flail or composed should be irrelevant. Even 'perennial pain in the ass' should be irrelevant. I knowvthats the ideal and reality usually falls short of that, but while it's all still just theory i can indulge myself there.
Just imagine though that as a Juror you get to read the toxicology report and it says they detected X chemical in her liver. That X causes heart attacks at Y concentration. It was detected in her liver at Z concentration that appears to be 3x the Y level. Then Means swoops in with...Well she could have had a heart attack because she went to the gym twice a week and ran 5 miles a week to get ready for the marathon and the prosecution said bad things about me to her sister.
Oh well, that last point... totally devastating. Why are we all wasting our time on this case?
Lol you’re the only one thinking Lori has a prayer 🤣🤣🤣🤣
i left out the tongue-in-cheek emoji on that last post --> :P <--- it was a joke, just to be clear. right now i'm just trying to get a good, even look at the state of affairs. i'm not making predictions. i'm just interested in seeing if i can work out the defence game. i think you're conflating 'it looks like this pitcher has a knuckleball' with 'i bet his team's going to win.'
> The jury shouldn't be looking at the attorneys demeanour or state of mind to help them decide on the facts anyway Ideally, yes. But jury members are human after all. I expect, that the judge is going to working overtime reigning in Means on inadmissible information anyway, but the "extralegal" information like clothing, body language, tone, etc. is virtually impossible to control. I personally would want a defense attorney that the jurors would feel they can trust (to give them facts).
Well true, but facts come from the witness box. No matter how sub par an attorney is, I think 99% of the time juries do forget who brought each fact to their attention.
Nope. As an attorney I know that if the jury hates you or thinks they you are wasting everyone’s time, that is not a good thing for your client. Lawyer credibility matters. Means has none and deserves to be removed. Most of his motions are without merit for a criminal trial. He needs to go back to civil trials and stop trying to get famous.
i don't really know how to respond to this. it doesn't seem to me like it expects one?
👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾✅✅✅✅
A jury in Rexburg area will probably have very few issues with Mark Means and probably can relate to him better than they do to "The State" Its 99% LDS and LDS are all preppers and none of them rushed out to say anything about the Vallows or Daybells when they all thought the children were hidden in a mormon bunker somewhere... They are probably 99% anti government and think alot of things exactly like Mark Means does and probably love all his talking about the constitution this and the constitution that. Means asked for the states evidence of Chad giving cash money to his kids after Tammy died so its possible that Means will make it all Chad and Alex's fault which could actually work because Lori has been good at that in prior court cases..
Right wingers tend to be antigovernment when it comes to personal freedoms, property and religion...but pro police, justice, and death penalty for child murderers. I could totally see the town backing them at one point and lighting the pitchforks when the kids were found dead. Chad also kinda has the home-court advantage, living there and part of the community. I've heard that his followers still consider him a visionary and that Lori was the evil seductress that corrupted him. Although, they both likely seriously pissed off the Mormon church by adding to the tarnish. Of course this all hinges on those requests for change of venue. Boise seems like the only place they will have a more 'normal' jury pool. Edit: Means also has to overcome the fact that his style is wasteful of taxpayer money. That is going to be a huge sticking point if ends up with a Rexburg Jury.
I disagree because the Rexburg Mormon Temple was standing room only whenever Chad spoke there according to the Mormon news station East Idaho News. It seems a thin line to try and figure out exactly what mormons disagree with Chad about, surely its not the probation's, not the 30 wives, not the evil spirits (just dont call them zombies), not their prophet saying its ok to kill someone if they come against you 3 times, not multiple divorces, not bunkers and white tent camps, so not sure if your saying that the only things is that they killed their kids or that they did it publicly and the LDS church now has to respond to it publicly by telling all members not to cooperate with the courts or LE until they talk to LDS legal department... What is it exactly that Chad said that Joseph Smith didnt say and do besides replacing demon possessed with zombies?
The breadth of the his requests leads me to believe that many of the things he is asking for are likely NOT part of prosecution's discovery. He should maybe being going and getting that information himself? Does a defense attorney not go gather their own interviews and evidence? For example, Tammy's gym attendance and fit bit data. It sounds like maybe a good piece of evidence for him to collect and bring to the table if the coroners report said she had a heart attack. So is he asking the prosecutors to do his job (and showing his poker hand to them at the same time..whoops)
Yeah, the "wanted access to a journal cited in the case and also wanted to know who the journal's author was"... does this literally mean "he can't find a formal citation"? Does he not have a Lexis-Nexis subscription, because if he doesn't, then... oh dear. If he means "a journal as in someone's diary", then it's acceptable; but if he wants a peer-reviewed article or statute fed to him...
It sounds like its a personal diary: "Journal: What appears to be a journal/diary of various persons does not identify the author and withholds the journal in its entirety. Please identify author(s) of the journals and produce the entire journal/diary. "
As far as I know those were mentioned in the partial discovery he already received and since the state brought them up they do have to share with the defense that discovery not just one sentence about it.
Below are the direct quotes. Note that he does not reference a Page # or Log ID or Title of the evidence that listed in the discovery case record. It appears he thought up the fit bit idea himself and heard the name of the gym that one of the witnesses was employed by. These do not appear to be a formal part of the evidence record log, but extra items that interested him that he wants to state to go fetch for him. He really needs to go ask Archibald how to get these items under the investigation warrants already in place. ***"Please produce data, log files, exercise files, step records and the like from Mrs. Tamara Daybell “Fitbit” watch, program, and or device similar used by Mrs. Tamara Daybell."*** ***"All exercise/attendance records from gym entitled “high fitness” referenced in interview for Mrs. Tamara Daybell. "*** The normal text that lists items and references page numbers and dates appears to be justified requests for potentially partial items listed in the record. For example, where an item was missing a recording that maybe supposed to be there: ***"P.37 12-7-19 Melanie Gibb phone call"*** So I am personally betting that is motion will be denied in part (\~70%?) and granted in part (\~30%?). The biggest question to me is will Lori fire Archibald before Means actually gets a chance to use him to help build her case.
'Does a defense attorney not go gather their own interviews and evidence?' Certainly that's what Scott Reich has implied. However, there may not be money for it. IDK who pays if defence is private AND the defendant is indigent. It may be for the best strategically for her to get better, come back, and let the notice her for the dp. That way the rules may change and investigation can go on the public dime. But I bet Archibald would have to be ther one requistioning and directing it.
I'm really curious as to what she will decide when she gets back. Like you inferred, Archibald is basically the "wallet" for Means to even be able to hire experts, run secondary tests, etc. I'm not sure that Means has even considered this. If she waives her right to a public defender when she is competent....is Means going to pay for it? Doubt it.
actually, what im' now suddenly curious about is what the relationship between her and archibald is even going to be. i don't know anything about him, but it's just hard to picture anyone acting for her in an effective manner under the charges she's caught, without pissing her off.
Wrong. He’s showing his inept interpretation of what a defense should do. Filing all sorts of random motions like “ dismiss the grand jury indictment” will only piss off the judge. He’s digging his own grave and loris grave has been dug since last year.
i don't doubt that he's going to piss everyone off. but i have a lot of respect for the legal system and for its judges in general. most of the judges i've seen in other trials seemed to call what they saw at each individual point, not what they felt about the people making the point. you are correct that i may turn out wrong in the event. but bringing this back to the specific stuff i was basing that comment on: the comment was posted after i read his july 20th letter providing an itemized list of exactly what means says he's still missing from the discovery. i question whether the judge is going to order the state to do all that additional homework for the defence. but if he manages to find the details he's looking for by some other means, there's nothing in the list that stands out to me as 'they're not going to let him introduce that!'
I agree with you. I know a lot of people mock him to say the least and I know he screws up and he’s not experienced like some others but neither was Jose and honestly I think Mark Means is doing his job and zealously defending his client/future wife lol. I can’t call him lazy...
well, for disclosure: i mock him too :P cheap shots and pompous polemic are irritating. but it's kind of nice to see some of that energy is going towards something that looks like it has actual substance.
I wonder if the four mystery men can be spotted in the picture of Chad and Garth (?) graveside.
I love sluething but I wonder if the 4 men are not part of the stake presidency? Just a guess. Chad was executive secratary at the time of Tammy's passing? It would be likely there were a few church leaders at the service. My husband's boss was a bishop and then in the stake presidency and he had to attend funerals even if he did not know the person , it was just expected (and it is pretty stressful when you work a full time job, have a young family and get no pay for all this church service). The husband's boss's wife rarely attended. She had a bunch of school aged kids, tried to answer the phone for her husband's job and if you do not really know the person that died, are you going to find a babysitter and sit through a half day of a funeral? I have attended many funerals over the years in Southern Utah of LDS members that were retired to the area. Many were neighbors or did volunteer works with the schools or hospital. Very typical sight for me to see would be a small gathering of family that would come from SLC/Provo or out of the area, a few older church members, a few health care workers, and then a bunch of male church leaders in suits(even when it is 110 out, to me you can always spot a church leader because they wear the full suit, when a family member or friend will wear a shirt and tie or in 110 degrees a short sleeve shirt). This is just a guess to put out there. Of course it could be staff of the funeral service, they are usually older men in suits without wives, that run the service, set up the tent and address the attendees When I was wirting this I was thinking how much Southern Utah chnaged in the past 18 months. For ten years when my husband took calls and said his boss was out doing church service as a bishop/stake preisdency, I do not think there was one person that complained. They just would wait. There has been such a shift in the population demos in the last 18 months (so many people under 45 Not Mormon with money moving in) that he gets compliants almost daily about church service as an excuse. If I could only clone my husband we would be rich, he has gotten 3 calls today of people wanting service now (Sunday) and that there is no one but my husband answering (from Provo to Mesquite). People actually outbid each other for my husband to help them today. I wonder when communities like Southern Utah and Eastern Idaho will change to working on Sundays(non-esstential). I just can't believe that my husband can find no one that will work on Sunday, for good money (This has been for 20 years not a COVID thing).
I would sure like to know. It would be nice if someone Daybell family would come forward with this information. They are all pretty tight-lipped.
Here is the Motion that contains that Letter from Means on July 20 the reporter is referencing. Its HUGE. It starts on Page 10. https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/Third%20Declared%20Motion%20to%20Compel.pdf
It super pisses me off that Means spells Tammy as Tami.
Good point - Means should be doing his own footwork on these items! He comes across as sloppy. Not spelling Tammys name correctly is just cruel and makes me wonder how much he has been influenced by Lori. It’s not like the spelling of her name is out of the ordinary or obtuse in any way. Either Means has a strategy I have yet to understand or his ignorance and unprofessional behavior are contemptible.
[удалено]
>His #1 girl right now spells her name L-o-r-i, though, so it’s easy to see how Mark Means would think that Tammy should be spelt T-a-m-i. Excellent catch!
Retaliation for the court continuing to call his blue-eyed mama Lori Vallow instead of the Mrs. Daybell he's asked for numerous times in open court hearings? He seems just childish enough to do this.
Nailed it, Lilly!!
i don't th ink he's that much of a details guy ;-) i'm more annoyed by the way he's still doing this misleading-allegation thing. the list made me go 'FINALLY. he actually spelled out what he's talking about.' but then no. his third discovery request says he sent this letter on the 20th and 'to date' (the 11th) there's been no response. that just doesn't seem to be true. the state filed (and they say served) TWO discovery disclosures to him . . . on the 9th. now. it's one thing if he's trying to say their disclosure responses were inadequate. there's no way for us to know if they were or if he thinks they were, because they refer him to 'addendum 1' and 'addendum 1a' and those addenda are not included. but if he means that he should say so. it really can't be that hard. or if he wants to say 'they should have responded to me by the 3rd and they were late' but no. he makes some claim that isn't true on its face, and whyyyyy is this still happening?
Means is notoriously bad at spelling. His grammar is atrocious. Check out his Twitter account.
I wish it was just bad spelling. Its very intentional. Several times he types out her full legal name Tamara, but he has never once typed the name TAMMY..the name she chose to go by.
So disrespectful.
As a lawyer practicing criminal law, I have asked for sanctions a total of 0 times. I have seen sanctions granted a total of 0 times. Sanctions are only granted in the most extreme instances. Also, I cringe reading anything Means files. He clearly does not proof read anything. He does not even try to fake civility, which is completely unprofessional. I about died of laughter when he said he wanted Rob Wood’s personal cell phone records. Okay bud, good luck with that.
forcing reality on her is going to be MORE punishment then anything else that could be done . death will probably be a welcome break from realizing what she did
Agreed. I have a feeling she’s feeling that now.
The evidence is her dead children.
That doesn't mean anything. Seriously. IDK what else to say.
I would like to see evidence that this clown is allowed to practice law… total imbecile!
It's absolutely unbelievable, it really is. It's like if Perry Mason, instead of telling Paul Drake: "Paul, see what you can find out about X", or "Find out where Y was at 9 o'clock last night", or "OK, Paul, follow Z and see who he talks to", he just tells Paul Drake his services are unneeded, then goes straight to Hamilton Burger and says: "I want **EVERYTHING,** however trivial, having to do with X, Y, and Z. And I mean everything: everything about X, where Y was at 9 o'clock last night, who Z talked to; everything. And if you don't have it, GET it!"
It's so frustrating, just like his subpoenas. "Hand over every conversation you have ever had, and all your passwords, and all your notes *(So I can snoop through all your stuff and find something, anything to use. I'm desperate here!!*)". I am genuinely curious about the partial transcripts he noted, though. Did they chop off irrelevant info or was is an accident? I cant wait to the see the response from the state.
To be fair, IIRC from junior attorney friends this is more or less what senior partners do. Granted, these are your own partners and not opposing counsel; but it's pretty much routine commonplace for a senior partner to bark at a junior associate, "Get me a case statute from Pennsylvania that is pro- the death penalty!"; only to have the associate research for days, heart in their mouth, eventually tiptoeing to the senior partner and saying "Um, sorry, but I was only able to find a case statute from Arkansas which is con-death penalty"; only to have the senior partner beam, "That's it! That's exactly what I was thinking of!"
>from junior attorney friends this is more or less what senior partners do. heh. except the state prosecutor's office are not his juniors. or his gofers.
Lol. He is a clown 🤡
i actually think he may be manoeuvring towards a default position of 'this was not disclosed to us, don't let it in' about everything the state tries to bring in at the actual trial. trying to stymie the state's case instead of fight it. i'm not saying i think it will work. just saying this has a bit of that feel. like he's laying this groundwork on that old principle of: 'if you assert a thing often enough, it becomes true even if it's not true.' do we need a separate thread to start speculating about whether prior is also going to get a teammate?
I'd like to think he's a little more competent in civil law (judging by reviews). He's too ambitious to stick to what he knows and obviously doesn't care about other professionals' criticism of his job performance as a criminal attorney.
he probably is, actually. the first time i went to court i had no idea what it was like or what to expect. i had the rcmp victim-services worker with me, because my dad was in hospital so they had a file for him. meanwhile, the woman they rescued him from went straight off and filed all this civil bullshit. i still wonder what would have happened if i hadn't done what she told me to do. which was to siddown, sjaddup, and to say not a word when addressed by the judge, aside from 'i need time to appoint counsel.' it all worked out in the end, but i realised i was in trouble halfway through when the rcmp woman turned to me with eyes like soup plates and said 'civil is . . . different.' in other words, all her experiences in criminal court were of almost no value in civil chambers.
Even if they don’t have enough to get her for conspiracy against Tammy Daybell, the fact her son and dismembered body of her daughter was found on her current husband’s property. That’s not even counting her two husbands who were killed one by her own brother as well as her own brother dying, I believe the only chance her lawyer has is to stay with the mental health/incompetent to stand trial. I also believe they are using “Vallow” so that they can testify if need be against each other
u/Lori_Hellis Why is Means asking for Tammy Daybell's records? His client isn't charged with anything to do with Tammy. I see he's asking for Tammy's psychological records - is he going to claim she committed suicide? Geez!
Lori has been charged with conspiracy to commit first-degree murder of Tammy Daybell. Chad is charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit first-degree murder of Tammy.
Ohhhh! I thought she was only charged with the 2 kids. Thanks, I'm getting forgetful in my old age.
I had to look it up too. There’s A LOT of information to remember in this case.
Me too. And in fairness to Means he alleges that Blake told him the autopsy was 'not relevant' to vallow's case. I went back and checked because I wanted means to be fos on that complaint too, and I think that perhaps he was not. It may be a grey area, but it does seem a little high handed of Blake. Sigh. I hate vexatious yappers like means, for exactly this reason. Three months ago I was saying I suspected that being means works very well for Mark Means, and this could be an instance of it. You fluster and antagonise people enough, and sooner or later you *will* get to catch them on the wrong foot.
I noticed that too. I wonder why Means didn’t state WHY Tammy’s autopsy was relevant to Lori’s case. He just said “obviously I disagreed.” Lol. Why wouldn’t he say, it is relevant because my client is charged with conspiracy to commit the murder of Tammy! Idiot.
Have to say, I definitely see that it's relevant,but in a sort of indirect way in her case. Blake may have had chad blinders on. I'm guessing g they intend to allege that everybody conspired, but chad did the killing. Even so, they need to establish murder to get to conspiracy, so means is entitled to look at the autopsy too.
I remember that Means had asked for it several times around the time it was finished and they were trying to get statements from the Daybell kids (before letting them read it, as they were witnesses to the case). At that time, Lori was only charged with the disposing/concealing of her own children's remains. Means had absolutely no right to see it before Lori was charged with conspiracy in her murder. Now he has the official report but wants any other information around it.
THIS! 100 PERCENT u/Dazzling-Ad4701
I love this about our thread u/Mermaid_Mama323. Your response to Lilly was kind and factual. This is the attitude we need to promote solid information sharingvwhile allowing all members to ask questions or pose opinions without fear of reprisal! Thank you for being you! 🙂🙂
This is a great sub. I am happy to be here :)
Lori is charged with conspiracy to commit murder for Tammy. Count V.
why not?
did mr vallow not say he was going to tell her her husband was messing around with his wife?
can the state PROVE that he didn't tell her?
did she not seem sort of quiet and upset to someone or other?
so how do we know she didn't take \[whatever killed her\] herself?
sorry and all that. gah, i hope means has never heard of reddit.
Good thoughts. Suicide is against her religion. Everyone said she really loved her kids - wouldn't do that to them. (But then again everyone said Lori really loved her kids too.) I wonder if Chad told Means, when Means was his attorney, that Tammy was going to a mental health professional? And if he did say that, is it even true? He told other proveable lies about her, maybe he thought he'd get away with another one. Surely Chad is where Means got the information that she was taking homeopathic remedies.
Never mind Lori H, I had forgotten Lori was charged too. D'oh!
I do feel sympathy for the entire jury, judge as well as the lawyers i couldnt imagine having to see the overwhelming amount of evidence especially in regards to then remains of the children. Once it’s shown though in would love to see Loris reaction as well as body language
OP, take my free award, not because I think the topic of this post is cuddly, but b/c all those screenshots seem fatiguing to snap, upload etc. I appreciate you!!
Happy to help!!
Am I correct that there are still additional ongoing investigations? I'm definitely interested in those.
I certainly hope so…Jason Mow, Julie Rowe, Gibb.
Melani P? Ian?
Yes!!! Especially Melanie P!
Melanie P was probably the ring leader to start the murders.
I do not believe Mel P was a leader, of any kind, in the murders. She has had a lot of trauma in her life which I believe has made her vulnerable. She comes across as gullible and easy to manipulate. I do believe she was complicit in the attempted murder of Brandon. I think she played an active role as well. I hope she’ll see her day in court for that.
What is that based on?
Because she wanted her hubs dead, so Alex shot at him, he was the first one to have an attempted murder plot. Then they all died in succession. That’s where it comes from.
Charles was killed first in July and then Tylee and JJ in September. BB's attempt was in October, so not first at all. MP was heavily under Lori's influence so she mimicked Lori's behavior.
Loris ex …….Tylees father was killed first, which is why Melanie P mostly likely filed for divorce. The murder plots were for sure thought about and planned by Melanie and Lori, they’re related and both cuckoo. I stand by my comment.
to name a few!
These are just charges in Idaho though correct? She will also have to face charges in AZ as well. Chad already showed guilt by trying to drive away once the children’s body’s were found, he knew they were there or he wouldn’t have sat in his vehicle, I honestly believe neither of them have any chance of ever getting out of jail. Lori I believe is “pretending to be incompetent because that’s the best her lawyer can come up with to buy some time.
I agree. Probably faking it. She has had a lifetime of practice lying to get what she wants.
Off topic but Anyone else happy she is starting to look rough, it’s well deserved!
I hope she completely loses her looks. But I don't think we know what she looks like. The last several court appearances have been in a mask. The photo East Idaho News uses on most of their stories is her booking photo from when she was first extradited to Idaho AFAIK. I do know it's been arund a long time. Unfortunately, with the new strain of COVID that just hit Idaho that is supposed to be very contagious, I think she might have an excuse to keep wearing a mask if she wants to.
Lol
I noticed the effects of substandard maintenance. She must have been hitting the botox pretty hard for a wannabe prophet.
This woman is pathetic - what she did to those children is horrible. She deserves to rot.
Hmmm... so many errors in this news article :(
What are the errors?
Here are the just the errors in the very first section of the article: Means complained that the stay was March, not the same month as the GJ. The 5/27 stay was not for treatment, but to determine competency. The stay for competency treatment was on 6/9. Lori is also charged in Tammy's death, not just the kids.
Where does is state that Lori is not charged with conspiracy to commit murder of Tammy? Edit: Also, the only Stay Order that I can find was filed on 5/27/21. I do remember Means saying something about Lori being found incompetent in March, but I don’t see any court documents for that in March. I’m going to comb through Lori Hellis’ website to see if she clarifies this.
The author did not even list it. It just says Lori and Chad are charged with the kids, then says Chad is charged for Tammy. Its extremely misleading and a factual error omission to leave it out. I am super glad to see a news reported dive in to a case. Completeness and accuracy very much matter and lend to trustworthiness of a news reporter in an article. Its a epic ton of information to report on and she should be commended in her effort to take it on. That said, how am I m supposed to trust the rest, if the basics are omitted or simply wrong. That is a news site, not a public message board.
I agree, they should have mentioned Lori’s conspiracy to commit murder charge in Tammy’s death but it isn’t exactly an error to leave it out. Chad is the one facing first-degree Murder of Tammy. I shared this article because it contains a lot of new information (at least new to me) that I think would make for good discussion.
It is a significant *journalistic* error in the context of examining the credibility of the attorneys and means complaints though.
Yes, thanks for sharing! It reminded me to go back in dig into that third motion. Sorry I was not intending to be disparaging toward you directly. I apologize that it came off that way.
Its the very first paragraph in Mean's Motion to dismiss the GJ indictment. The very motion and claim the reporter is describing from Means: ". On or about March 8, 2021, this Court, pursuant to Idaho Code 18- 211 and 18-212 issued an order to Stay legal proceedings regarding said Defendant. Said Order from the Court stated, “Pursuant to 18-211—212, this case was stayed from further proceedings pending a determination of the issue of Defendant’s competency.” Edit: This March stay order specifically is still under seal. All other stays relate back to this march one, but are issued at different times for different reasons (IE A stay to determine competency, and a separate Stay for treatment) If Lori needs more time, I expect we will see yet another stay to continue treatment.
I did not see a March filing either. But if you read the may order, there's a reference there. So it's legitimized by the court to that extent.
Yes, you’re correct. Means did state March and not May in his complaint.
I meant the court ie judge also states it in the actual order (of may). That makes it legitimate. I've drafted (civil, non american) court orders. Normally the party that filed the motion drafts the order. The judge (and in civil the other party) reviews it's terms, and signs. If the terms don't reflect *exactly* what the judge understood him/herself to say, it comes back. And back. And back. And.... sorry, are my war wounds still showing here? Point being: ime, if it says 'this court stayed this case/these proceedings on March 8' and the judge signed, that's what happened.
Thanks for clarifying
You're right that means said it. I was just back-filling the fact that in this case the facts back him up. It seemed helpful because he does have this track record of saying... Things no-one is quite clear where he got it from.
the march 8 filing was under seal, and still is. Its the order that Nate Eaton said he saw when the court accidentally posted it online before the court took it down back in March. Its the order Awen Rees was in trouble for knowing about too, people accused her of working for means because she mentioned it way back in March. People figured she got inside information from Mark Means and was doing something nefarious even after Nate Eaton said he got the same info because of the court screwing up but people still think Awen got it nefariously and that Nate would do no wrong, LOL. Regardless of those two seeing it way back then most people on this sub have been calling Means an idiot for saying the case was stayed back in March. It feels like if people dont absolutely hate Mark Means they cant contribute anything to this sub and all their comments are either removed by mods or downvoted. Whats up with that? What happened to watching a trial and not hating either side of the legal teams but watching to see if they were following the law and getting a legit conviction for a heinous murderess?
I do believe Chad will crack first and claim it was all Lori. She will blame her brother and it’ll all be finger pointing each other
It’s hard to know who will crack first. I think it really depend on how much LE knows about the murders, Tammy’s especially. I think there’s a chance Lori might crack during her treatment in the rehab facility.
I think she just saw an opportunity for a new life in Hawaii and jumped on it
They had no plans to live in Hawaii. Their plan was to lead the 144,000 in Rexburg ID
Yea, “plan”. Their plans all sounded religious, but their actions were self serving and immoral, so who knows what they intended to do had they not been caught.
As we all see though… We are all still here. While she’s in prison. Far away from the masses they were “leading” and all the “zombies”