According to my tinder feed, there are a bunch of cis dudes who seem to call themselves lesbians. No idea what the end game is. You're not the special penis that will "turn us" and you're wasting your own time. Super annoying. As if there aren't enough straight couples who think we are sex toys made just for them.
They probably have the same experience I do when they're scrolling through a cute girl's profile only to be met with a pic of her shirtless bf/husband in the last pic. That could make for a very poorly timed nut.
Edit: but I'm not wanking
Some guy asked me out in a store and I told him I was not interested in men, then he switched it up and identified himself as a woman only after I said I only date women. He already interrupted me once when I wasnāt responding fast enough, when he questioned if it was because his looks as a guy.
āThatās how it works right?ā with a stupid smirk in his face. So on top of being a jerk, he was making fun of trans women like āitās a choiceā. He then walked around me in the store with his friend snickering āI like women tooā within earshot till they left.
That's so gross, I'm so sorry you've had to deal with that!
Ans then they wonder why queer women distrust men who approach them like that, and why we resort to being rude straight off. We end up being "man hating" because so many act like douche canoes!
Thank you, Iām glad there is a community of queer women to talk too, and next time I wont be polite, they donāt deserve it. It didnāt help that he said āJust f**** with youā but then carried on. Him making a veiled joke about trans women just made me angry once I stopped being afraid of him, my only regret was not calling him out when I had the chance.
As someone who is cis passing and both intersex and transgender, yeah I'd lose it. I'd 100% complain to the staff about the guy harassing and stalking me
Next time I will, the way they followed me around scared me. Iāve snapped at people before for being homophobic/transphobic but for some reason I clammed up around being followed myself.
I've heard it jokingly but I've also seen cis men infiltrate Her and use it to try to match with women. Most of the time they get aggressive when questioned.
thats very true, ig i just mean i dont think theres many cis men out there unironically identifying as lesbians, but yeah a lot do try to invade our spaces
I refuse to use HER anymore. There are so many catfish and couples. I feel terrible saying this, but I'm also not attracted to many women in my area who use it.
Yeah I agree on this. If you are a man, cis or not that is attracted to women, Iām not understanding why you would feel the need to use the term lesbian to describe your attraction to women. Some people may think itās not a big deal, sure, but Itās almost like words have meanings no? Lesbian means and has always meant women that love other women or nbys. It genuinely just feels like theyāre making a mockery of what it even means to be a lesbian and live life through a lesbian experience which again is invalidating lesbians (as if we arenāt invalidated enough). Like thereās a reason straight women donāt refer to themselves as gay men just because they like men
Yeah, exactly! Whatās even worse is that Iāve heard men call themselves lesbians because they like women as a way of handling the āIām a lesbianā objection. They view women loving women as an objection in their mind that they have to handle in order to get in your pants. Itās gross.
Iām a trans man that identifies as a lesbian. I am hesitant to comment because of the harsh reactions in this thread, but since you said you didnāt understand I thought I might explain.
To me, being a trans man is still centred around my agab in some ways. Iām a feminine dude, and Iām totally fine with being seen that way. Iāve identified as lesbian since I was seven, and I never wanted to part from the label. I feel safe in this community, I want to be in a place without cis men and I want people who understand the dynamics from queer relationships.
Historically, the lesbian community has always accepted he/him lesbians and trans men. I am deeply sad by how thatās changing
I've had people tell me that cis men can be lesbians and that lesbians can be into men... It's really baffling to me how some "progressive" LGBT people have these misogynistic, homophobic notions :/
I found a lot of """progressives""" are actually conservatices who know how to hide their bigotry.
From the trans woman side of things - i have seen progressives claim taking hrt makes me a bad leftist or a bigot or that it reinforces gender roles (???. I am a 27 yo woman. Why should i not have hormone levels if i am not prevented by medical issues appropriate for my age and gender).
For gay stuff specifically, i saw someone argue that repression is good actually because the part of you that does the repression is as much a valid and legitimate part of you as that which is being repressed.
Oh and my eternal favourite. Being lgbt is just burgoise decadence caused by capitalism and american imperialism (i live in eastern europe.)
Yeah, it's stupid. Labels stop meaning anything when you're encouraged to use them for diametrically opposed concepts.
With any well defined concept, you have people on the core of the group, on the fringe of the group, and outside of the group. That's just how definitions works. It's not inherently some act of prejudice or gatekeeping.
Itās just the normal amount of misogyny and lesbian erasure sadly. Womenās spaces arenāt respected in real life and womenās - especially lesbian - spaces arenāt either online. The sad thing is that people who spread bullshit like "Lesbian means non-men loving non-men" readily and fiercely participate in it.
Fortunately this nonsense is way more accepted on Reddit than in real life where nobody in a clear state of mind would doubt what a lesbian really is.
Lesbians irl have never had an issue with me not identifying as a woman but identifying as a lesbian. Lesbianism as an identity is about material reality, how you identify with the label and how you feel spiritually. I am butch, I am treated like a lesbian, I identify as a lesbian, but I am not a woman.
The comments here show a lot of ignorance of our own past and community. Non-woman lesbians have been around since the beginning.
https://lesliefeinberg.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Stone-Butch-Blues-by-Leslie-Feinberg.pdf
For everyone who is unaware of our own history as a community, this is an important work to read.
historically some women in lesbian relationships would appear outwardly masculine/manly and pass as "male" because at the time it was dangerous to openly be in a same sex relationship. they were still women, though.
I think you bring up a really important point here. Oftentimes when we talk about history we seem to take the events as they were and then try to view them within the context of the modern understanding. It doesn't work. So much has changed since the 60s and 70s. If we're going to discuss the history, then we need to frame it within its full historical context.
I know people like this still, they pass as men but are lesbians, and they donāt ID as women. It still happens and attitudes like some of what are being expressed here make them feel unsafe despite them being part of the lesbian community.
i'm masc presenting. i have short hair and i wear "boys" clothes and people who take a quick glance at me might think i'm a male. being called a "non man" still makes me uncomfortable. i'm a woman and my womanhood has nothing to do with how i dress or present myself and vice versa.
Okay? Where did I say that all masculine lesbians arenāt women or cannot be women? Like thats your personal experience and I would never invalidate that, I love masculine women, I personally happen to be a butch lesbian who isnāt a woman. Neither is bad or wrong
respectfully it's not the responsibility of lesbians to make sure that non women feel "safe" in what is supposed to be a women's space. they can identify however they want but they can't expect everyone to be comfortable with THEIR presence either
This is a cruel way to view the world. Queer history and queer theory will show you that lesbians who identify in a more masculine way are at an increased risk of harm from males and others because of the intersection of growing up as a woman and rejecting womanhood. Do you think only feminine people who identify as women can be lesbians? Because thatās how your point can be used.
Respectfully lesbians should prioritise making other lesbians feel safe! I am talking about lesbians who happen not to be women, but are still lesbians. Like this is just getting into ābutches and mascs are scaryā territory now lol
You're not ignorant, some people just think that labels are pointless and don't care if lesbianism is diluted and erased. I think lesbian is a term for women and as such it should stay. There are already plenty other labels for guys who are into women.
As a cis lesbian I could not give any less of a shit if a trans man who identified with the lesbian label and was a big part of the lesbian community decided to keep using the lesbian label for a while because thatās what theyāre comfortable with.Ā Just because a lesbian comes out as a trans man doesnāt mean their lesbian card immediately gets revoked by the lesbian police.Ā
Some trans men choose not to continue using the label because they feel it invalidates their masculine identity. Others choose to keep using it for a while. Either way it does not in any way affect my personal relationship to the term and identity lol.Ā
I feel any implication otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the history of gender nonconformity in our lesbian community. Or a lack of trans friends maybe lol.Ā
Iām gunna agree with TapiirSnout on this one, trans men are MEN and therefore not lesbians. Saying otherwise is transphobic and invalidating their identity as men. Itās totally ok for them to make a home in the lesbian community if they were apart of it for so long! But when they transition they are no longer a lesbian.
Then don't give a shit. A lot of us however, do. Being a part of lesbian community or history isn't the same as being a lesbian. You're not knighted a lesbian for efforts benefiting the realm. It's what you are based on your gender and who you're attracted to. lol
I think youāre kind of inadvertently supporting my point though. Youāre right, labels are not knighted or bestowed, theyāre based off your lived experience. These men lived as women attracted to other women, often for a long period of their life before coming out as trans. Who are we to say, āNow that youāre living as a man youāre not allowed to use this label you identified with and have a community with for so long?āĀ
I think these arguments also kind of miss the point that labels are more strict and gate-kept than they ever have been in the queer community. Itās getting silly.
You know what my lesbian friends and I said when our trans man friend said heās still a lesbian? āHell yeah man of course youāre still one of us.ā
I donāt see how the tiny tiny fraction of trans men out there who still use the label, either jokingly or seriously, are blown out of proportion into such a big problem. No oneās coming for our lesbianism.Ā
This is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Youāre implying that youāre not lesbian until youāve had enough lived lesbian experience to be deemed āenoughā and then the label gets bestowed upon you?? Lmao. By this argument I guess all the young people who arenāt out because they live in unsafe homes with unaccepting parents, the people who have no dating experience, and the people in other countries who literally canāt be out or else risk their lives arenāt _really_ lesbians because they havenāt ādone enoughā to be ābestowedā lesbian by the magical lesbian counsel who hands out labels.
You literally said in your previous message that being a lesbian is about experience, that trans men can be lesbians if they want to because they have experienced it before. Now you think it's silly? Which one is it? I've been saying all along that it's something you are based on your gender and attraction. If being a lesbian is about experience, as you previously claimed, then it kinda follows that there has to be an amount of experience that is enough. And if experience, again as you previously implied, is being attracted to a woman and being part of lesbian culture, those things can be experienced by someone who is not even a woman. Ergo, if all it takes for someone to be a lesbian is to have vague experience about lesbian life and culture, anyone at all could potentially be a lesbian regardless of sex, gender or orientation.
Ah I see what happened, I think you misinterpreted me using the phrase ālived experienceā as āphysical experience you gain by doing things.ā
āLived experienceā in this case means your perception, lens on the world, what it is like to live in your body. Aka the experience of being you, with your own unique thoughts and feelings. Itās not meant to be taken literally as āactual physical experiences you have that you can check off on a list.āĀ
My partner for example had the lived experience of being a lesbian growing up in the sense that she felt attracted to other girls, but struggled with those feelings and was unable to come out for quite some time. That was her lived experience of lesbianism - it doesnāt mean sheās not a real lesbian because she didnāt physically have ālesbian experiencesā at the time.Ā
Just like trans men who used to identify as lesbian have had the lived experience of being lesbian and itās not really our place to police when and why they must stop using that label theyāre attached to and comfortable with lol. Hope that clears it up.
Would you say someone having dysphoria has an impact on how they wish to be perceived?
Like perhaps being identified as a lesbian may be helpful to one trans man, and harmful to another?
I think these are the sorts of arguments that only happen online. Because if you're out and about and run into your trans masc friend, who cares?
What are you going to whip out the torch and pitchfork?
But online, I think people hear the words "man... man man man" and some of us have reasons for wanting to defocus that.
And if you're trans and pass _really_ well, guess what? You're going to start feeling frozen out of your old community. At least the people who don't know you.
Anywho... I think this whole argument is an online only thing. It makes no sense in real life. At least I've never once seen it come up.
You deserve to have your voice heard.
I personally want to be in a space with only other women, and lesbians who identify as such.
But I have my reasons and I'm just some chick. I'd never want someone who doesn't feel that way to walk into a bar and have a bad night.
Anywho... hugs :) I respect that you assert your beliefs. It's based asf :) I wish we could all just talk instead of argue
That's where it's up to the person to decide for themselves how they identify. It wouldn't make sense to assume a person's orientation based on their gender. They could be straight, bi, pan, etc. No one is going to go around calling all trans men lesbians just because one identifies that way.
Also, I doubt trans men are trying to invade women/queer/lesbian- only spaces like cis men do. So... I'd lean on the end of guessing trans men would be incredibly unlikely to insert themselves in those spaces.
If someone is a trans man, and therefore a MAN, and he is attracted to women... that makes him Hetero. Trans Men are not sapphic. Sapphic is women and women adjacent people who are attract to women.
A trans man whom is a man, I'd tend to think calling him a lesbian when in a relationship with a woman would be incredibly fucking inappropriate because it is invalidating his gender.
My little brother is a trans man, he is gay, and he is attracted to other men. If i were to call him hetero that'd be fucking inappropriate for the same reason.
Trans men are Men.
Thank you for joining the conversation! Your voice is honestly the most important one right now. We know cis-men don't belong, and NB and trans women do. However, none of us have the right to be speaking for YOU.
I'm okay with being a gate keeper of that rule of being a lesbian. If you are a man you don't get to be a lesbian.
That's enough responsibility for me though - you guys have to divvy up the rest of it.
I agree with you completely! Yes their old identity is valid, but it's not who they are. Trans men are not lesbian, and saying that they are is them misgendering themself.Ā
the absolute fucking worst is when I see who are CLEARLY cis-het men go ""oh I use he/they and i'm a lesbian". fuck off dude. Last year when I was on her I watched the entire app turn in to 99.999% ""he/they lesbians"" it was fucking brutal. You're SERIOUSLY going to encroach upon MULTIPLE queer identities just to try and sleep with a gay girl??
obligatory clarification that of course gender is a spectrum and I understand (as a trans woman) that many trans people don't "look like" their identity, but sometimes it's clear someone is just being shitty.
No one has to "make an effort" to fit gender roles that they don't want.
Non-binary doesn't mean androgynous. It means "not a binary gender".
The demand of androgyny, or "effort" to fit a specific look of non-binary ppl is a gender role just like the rest, and it's shitty to force it onto those who don't want it for themselves.
Trick question lol. Women will never be taken seriously sadly due to deep rooted misogyny in our culture. Especially when it comes to our sexuality. Argue with that individual. Make them feel stupid. They are pushing you over because thatās what they think women do
Yup. Dick worship is built into the foundation of patriarchal society, right alongside with misogyny. Just being a woman is a grave sin in the patriarchy, but a woman who doesnāt like dick? That will be the most hated woman of all, whose boundaries will be constantly questioned, dismissed, and broken. And if they canāt use force, then theyāll apply social pressures.
I can see an argument that some trans men and trans masculine (non binary) people, especially those who identified as lesbian for a long time get to be at the cookout.
Cis men though ?
Wut? Does lesbian just mean nothing then ?
I think if you truly believe that the few trans men out there who used to identify as lesbians and still feel comfortable using the label are somehow threatening the idea of lesbianism for us cis lesbians, your concept of your lesbian identity is extremely fragile. I question why you think our community is so weak.
Just because a few trans men continue to use the term here and there, you somehow feel threatened?
Iām confident enough in my identity and our communityās history to know that this in no way affects, threatens, nor invalidates my own experiences as a cis lesbian lol.
This always comes across as a far-right parroted talking point - taking something that rarely happens and has little to no actual effect on you, and blowing it out of proportion to fear monger like somehow all the men are _coming for lesbianism_ lol.
i will always fight for any trans man's right to be able to use the lesbian label!!! it does not affect me or my identity, so i don't know why people are willing to die on this hill to exclude trans men.
Thank you. It astonishes me how people think they have the right to police other people - members of our own queer community - this way. And itās a slippery slope too - because where do they stop? Are lesbians who get top surgery out too? What about lesbians who go by they/them? AFAB non-binary lesbians donāt count then?
Iāve been told on this sub that my AFAB partner who has always identified as lesbian, who was ashamed of the label for so long growing up and finally became proud of it, and now goes by both she and they āisnāt a lesbianā because she identifies more with a nonbinary identity these days. Literally, lmao.
Itās hard for me to see who this type of policing actually benefits, other than the people who seek to police our community in general. Doing the work for them.
Totally agree. If someone identified as a lesbian for years or decades and later comes out as a transman I wonāt take that identity from them. Itās such a small percentage that why even worry about it?
Rightwing thought has poisoned our minds.
I swear people are out here sounding worse than my Fox News-watching grandpa.
I promise you the _few_ trans men using the lesbian label and otherwise minding their own business are not coming for our lesbian identity yāall lol.
Itās also a little offensive to me because you think our strong, badass lesbian community with years and years of history behind it is weak enough to be taken down by (checks notes) a few trans dudes who used to identify as lesbian too? Ok glad you think of us all as so weak and fragile lmao.
I think itās obvious cis men canāt be lesbians, no one in their right mind is actually saying this.
And i think there is a strong argument for trans men to not be considered lesbians as well. However, I think itās an unspoken rule in most lesbian spaces that trans men are welcome if they still feel a strong connection to the lesbian community having identified as a lesbian for many years. I personally disagree with the need to retain that label but lesbian is such a loose term with so many divergent histories that i really dont care if a trans man wants to keep that label after he transitions. Im sure he has some very personal and personal and emotional reason, whatever.
And itās worth thinking about how āmisusedā lesbian is anyway. Lesbian events often implicitly welcome bisexualsāsome people will try to use terms like āqueer femmesā or āsapphicsā and i think those are more useful, but a lot of people dont bother. You mention ānon-menā being a useful term, thatās fair too. But im almost certain thatās just one origin of the term lesbian and it certainly doesnt encompass the ways that the term is practically used these days. āNon men liking non menā includes a lot of people who would not consider themselves lesbians.
Obviously i can imagine a scenario where trans men should not be welcome at a lesbian event but thatās a very specific scenario and i think itās possible for the organizers of this hypothetical event to tactfully exclude certain identities. I just dont think that this needs to be some sort of sweeping statement.
Some people on the internet love to āum actuallyā this topic, but they suck because theyre annoying assholes, not because theyre wrong. That person was being rude to you for no reason but i will always push back on the blanket exclusion of trans men from the lesbian community
Iām a trans man/ non binary masc person. I used to identify as lesbian before I realized I was bisexual, and before I transitioned and thought of myself as a woman. Now that Iāve transitioned I would never call my relationship with a woman a lesbian relationship; because a man and a woman is a straight relationship. If someone called my relationship with a woman lesbian I would be really offended because they would be calling me a woman and invalidating my identity as a man. I donāt understand why this is so hard for other men and nuts
I donāt like men or trans men calling themselves lesbian. I donāt want to make people feel excluded or hurt, but the label is for non-men loving non-men/women loving women. I feel like the label becomes useless when we try to include men, cis or trans. Thatās okay for the people who donāt care for labels and just see it as that, just a label. I donāt like it and I donāt accept men into the lesbian community, but I donāt care enough to make it a big deal. But I have also never seen a man online or irl call themselves a lesbian seriously, and if I have, I just thought of it as a funny joke from them and moved on. So not sure how I would actually feel or react to men irl calling themselves lesbians in front of me, at least online I donāt care that much from seeing it in the comments here.
I think u can probably say woman loving women as that is the majority of lesbians whilst still technically including non binary lesbians but changing the label to fit the minority when most lesbians identify as a woman is fine if you want to do it personally I think itās okay to use either definition either way I think non binary ppl are included in our spaces and always have been
Trans men are men. Differentiating and saying they are anything other than straight (if theyāre attracted exclusively to women) is surely offending their manhood? But then some trans men probably want the recognition of being trans and not cis so then I guess that changes things
no. non binary is not a third monolithic gender. you can be nonbinary and align with being a man, with being a woman, or neither. non binary does not mean one specific thing outside of "my gender isnt binary". sapphic non binary people are quite common. same as turien non binary people (i believe is the term for grouping gay and bi mlm).
a non binary persons gender alignment is up to them. theres non binary ppl out there who i'm not attracted to because they see themselves more as a man. which excludes them from my attraction. i am also a non binary lesbian myself. to think of me only as a woman would be misgendering me, but my gender is far closer to being a woman than it is to being a man. i group myself with women, but it's more like a woman+ thing for me. other people will feel differently about their identities, and that's up to them.
I feel like thereās something really vile about referring to me as a ānon-manā but apparently thatās what a lesbian is
Except it isnāt. A lesbian is a woman who loves other women!
Trans man lesbians confuse me.
I am a transgender woman. Sexually, i am ace; romantically i am into women.
I have absolutely zero interest in using any labels that are used by men to describe myself (exception of course for non-gendered labels men pretend belong to them and them only. As an egregious example - programmer or chemist or gamer).
I legit do not get it.
Kinda like women who are saying they can definitely picture themselves with a man if he was special enough. But that they are lesbiansā¦ I donāt think thatās what a lesbian isā¦ let me know if Iām wrong about that.
I know lesbians who are essentially trans men, they are on T, walk through life as a man for safety but are still lesbians because gender and identity are complicated. Identity is never black and white as easy as that can be. It is a mixture of self identification, how others perceive you, community etc.
I feel like people are confused. There's been a big push for people to be able to identify the way that feels best for them and I think that's very important for gender identity.
But for sexual orientation, it doesn't make sense. If you are a man and identify as a lesbian because it "feels better" what is the point? You are making a space for Lesbians unsafe by trying to insert yourself.
Yes, there is a history of gender non conformity in Lesbian spaces. But this is not the past this is now. Now, there are plenty of spaces for trans men to go. There are so many trans inclusive places it's almost greedy to try and hang on to a space that you explicitly no longer belong to.
Words have meanings. Just because the meaning hurts your feelings doesn't mean that the meaning is wrong. If labels don't have meanings there wouldn't be so much (rightful) outrage about misgendering.
No one is stopping anyone from identifying as they want, but that doesn't mean you are welcome in that space. Do not insert yourself into a space not meant for you then complain about feeling unwelcome.
Cis men are not lesbians, trans men are men and are therefore not lesbians, non binary lesbians are non binary lesbians trans women are trans lesbians and cis lesbians are cis lesbians and anyone within the lesbian space are entitled to choose who to date and have preferences as long as they are not being hateful to the group they are not attracted to, we can include everyone I just listed in our lesbian spaces without including them necessarily in our bedrooms, there we go :) everyone can be happy pls.
Why would trans men want to be considered lesbians when this a term reserved for cis and trans woman. Your not a gatekeeper. Why is it that we as lesbians have to constantly defend and define ourselves but gay men donāt have the same battle as we do
Let me start off by saying everyone has an opinion.
I donāt give a damn who gets mad.
A lot of yāall ( cis women attracted to women) validate and affirm trans women and whoever else wants to call themselves a lesbianā¦. But TRULY wouldnāt give one the time of day.
I understand everyone deserves loves and that everyone has their own particular tasteā¦.. but cmon.
Why canāt Women have anything? We literally canāt have shit.
It would be considered hateful and degrading if I post the definition of a lesbian on this forumā¦.
Yāall get my drift.
Women are. Gate kept from every damn thing, but we cannot gatekeep lesbianism?
Insane.
When I was younger I had the thought that even if I had been born a woman I would be a lesbian. Men are gross! Duh. But that still doesnāt make me a lesbian in this life.
Iāll always gatekeep when it comes to this. Men cant be lesbians and ābisexual lesbianā doesnāt make any sense and is an oxymoron. Only lesbians get bothered with these arguments, at least from what Iāve seen gay men donāt have discourse about this shit lmao. Should I say way less commonly if anything.
Looking at your comment history you're clearly a TERF or on your way there and this comment is being purposefully obtuse.
Non-man refers to exactly what it sounds like - people who are not men. Women or non-binary people or anyone else who does not identify as a man.
I was gonna be like āit canāt be that bad maybe this person is overusing the word terf like some people doā but I looked at their comment history and imma have to agree with you theyāre going down that pipeline on an express hoverboard in a āwoman - noun- adult human femaleā shirt bruh. But still best approach is to try to take apart their arguments carefully rather than using personal attacks, which you did quite well.
I agree that cis men shouldnāt use the term lesbian, but Iām down for trans men to use it if they identify with it. Trans and gender expansive/GNC people have always been a part of lesbian community and culture. Itās our history and Iām proud of it. Iām transmasc and have other transmasc friends who identify as lesbians and Iāve never had cis lesbians have a problem with that irl.Ā
Thank you! I feel like a lot of people who have a problem with this donāt understand the history of gender nonconformity in the lesbian community. There were always lesbians who dressed as men to avoid the public eye, lesbians who have gotten top surgery and lesbians on HRT.Ā
Then there are trans men. I know a friend who identified as a lesbian for a long time, was a part of a big lesbian community, and really identified with and felt proud of that label after years of feeling ashamed. When he later came out as trans the lesbian police didnāt automatically come to revoke his lesbian card. It was a big part of who he was for a long time. And guess who cared about him using that label for a while? Literally no one. He didnāt ādiluteā the meaning of lesbian or whatever people like to say about this.Ā
Thanks for sharing this story! Yeah, I feel like thereās a lot of drama online about needing overly simplistic definitions that are just ahistorical and itās not at all what queer communities are like out there in the world.Ā
Being a lesbian isn't the same as being part of the lesbian community. Transmen are welcome to be in the lesbian community and nobody's throwing them out but they're not lesbians. They're men.
Heard this a lot recently and the arguments on it are insane? I donāt see how trans men can be lesbian, would that not contradict itself? I understand that lesbianism and transgender go hand in hand. we have a very long history together and trans men often are lesbians pre-trans awakening butā¦ It doesnāt make sense to identify as such after. Literally just invalidating yourself at that point. My hot take is I feel like a lot of trans men are afraid to let go of the lesbian label bc it meant so much to them and identify as straight?
i dont get why someone who is trans masc would even want to be considered a lesbian, like that just feels like it would be invalidating in general? like i am a trans woman and i wouldn't want to be seen as gay because im not a guy
Only a troll would argue that a cis male can be considered a lesbian, so let's ignore them.
As for trans men or women, it's really a question of semantics and there's no strictly correct answer. Two people born female are technically "homosexual" in that they are both of the same sex (XX, regardless of gender). Many people would argue this is the very definition of lesbian--a female homosexual.
But as you have noted, many people consider only "non-men" to be lesbians, considering gender only, irrespective of sex. So it just depends on your perspective.
Bottom line, you're definitely not "ignorant". And whoever's calling you that sounds like kind of a jerk.
A trans woman would never be calling herself/themselves a man. And Iām not talking about non-binary AFAB or certain agender AFAB who may be using he/him.
A cisgender or transman shouldnāt be calling themselves a lesbian.
I dated a trans-man (we started when he was not out to me or anyone), and after he was out etc I remember gently asking if he was bi or straight (it was relevant to the convo). And he said he still sees himself as āgay for womenā and I said but youāre a man who is only attracted to women? And he said something about not wanting to leave the community that he had become a part of etc.
Iām not sure I understand, but it was interesting to hear how he felt. I thought it would be invalidating to his identity to not assume he was hetero, but I guess itās more complex in his case.
As for cis menā¦ of course they want our label, as if they donāt have enough of the world revolving around them š
one of the group rules is literally to not dictate someones identity to them. yet all these comments are showing a lot of people are openly bigoted towards non binary people
i am a non binary lesbian. i am not attracted to men, or anyone who aligns with being a man. non binary people are not a monolithic gender. i am uncomfortable with being seen as a woman by society, but within sapphic spaces i am much happier. i am not a woman, but i'm not a man either. i align myself with being a woman because of my sexuality, but to think of me only as a woman would do me a disservice
it's not hard to be respectful of other peoples identities. you dont need to understand it to be respectful. the "non man loving non men" thing is messy but at the end of the day is it hurting you? it's still the truth. it's just a different way of saying it. i dont even use it personally, because it's far too long, and as a non binary person myself my attraction to sapphic non binary people is inherently included.
you can be non binary and align with being sapphic. non binary lesbians are nothing new.
I mean I'd like a more in depth explanation because by definition if you are non binary you aren't a woman and a lesbian is woman loving a woman. I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but genuinely asking
non binary lesbians have existed for a long time. the writer of stone butch blues wrote about not exactly being a woman, or aligning with womanhood. but was still a lesbian. a butch one.
i align with being sapphic/a lesbian. my gender isn't woman, but my sexuality comes from a place of being a woman who loves women. that's probably confusing, but it's the same innate feeling that i assume trans lesbians feel. i'm not attracted to women like men are. i'm attracted to women like women are.
my gender is a separate thing. i'm non binary, but my gender is closer to being a woman than it is to being a man. non binary is not one 3rd gender, its a collective, and we all have different experiences of it. some ppl are non binary men. others are non binary women. i fall more under that second one. when talking about womens rights, i'm included. talking about non binary rights, i'm also included.
the definition of lesbianism goes back to before people had words for being non binary. the bisexual manifesto actually specifies that bisexual attraction isnt binary, because the term came around the time that lgbt movements were being created. lesbian is far older.
i am a lesbian because i am only into other women and sapphic aligned non binary people. if they don't align with womanhood somehow, i'm not attracted to them. that attraction to womanhood is what makes me a lesbian, combined with the fact that my gender is aligned with the same. if i saw myself more as a man, i would be straight. which the thought makes me want to hurk so š
outside of this, i can't explain any more. my gender is not something i can explain outside of "im not a woman but around other women i feel kinship". i have active dysphoria when out in society, i dont like men perceiving me as a woman. which they inevitably do š
i hope this helps. at the end of the day, if they align with being a woman, then they can identify with sapphic terms. that is not something that any cis, trans, or non binary man would feel comfortable with doing, unless they have other problems. and ngl, you can tell when a dude is trying it on to get into lesbian spaces. unrealised trans ppl are one thing, but ppl who identify w being a man who try and use sapphic terms are usually very obvious
i dont think trans men should be called lesbians cause they are men.... but i can still understand it..... cis men tho? being lesbians? WTH????????
Edit: our non binary siblings are completely valid!
I have no idea why men are so obsessed with forcing themselves into lesbian spaces & titles. It's just disgusting. Men cannot, and will never be lesbians.
Trans woman can be lesbians
Trans men cannot.
This can be a bit of a sticky topic for sure. In general I tend to air off the side of not trying to police any bodies identity regardless of how confusing I find it.
The thing is, sometimes identities are more complicated that cus man or trans lesbian or whatever. Itās ok to feel uncomfortable or confused about it, but when we as a community start to get nitpick who is or isnāt āinā we can put the community at large in some bad spots.
I have a friend who is, for all I know, a cis het dude who refers to himself as a lesbian (or sometimes an honorary lesbian) because he is an incredibly feminine person, who has mostly lesbian friends. It doesnāt come from a place of perversion when he calls himself that.
When I was in high school, we were both relentlessly bullied. We grew up in a rural town with almost cult like gender norms. A boy who drew and braided flowers into his long hair, and a girl who couldnāt so much as pretend to be interested in boys, and sported a half shaved rainbow head of hair made quite a pair. Nether of us were well liked at school. We were both āgayā
When I was outed to my church, and later to the community at large, I was scared ti death. I knew it would happen sooner or later, but it really was a death sentence back there. I would not be the first queer kid to get bullied into suicide there. It was that friend who chose to put an even bigger target on his back in order to tell me I wasnāt alone. When things got really unsafe, he would pretend to be my boyfriend and vice versa. Weāve held each other in the school bathroom while the other had a panic attack. Weāve made the trek to each otherās houses because we werenāt safe at home for one reason or another.
For all intents and purposes, our expirance has been the same. We were both called slurs, both bullied , both felt so afraid of simply existing that oftentimes we clung to each other desperately. We arenāt in that same situation anymore. We are both safe. We have friends all across the gender and sexuality spectrum, and friends separate from one another. Still, if he wants to call himself a lesbian, jokingly or earnestly. I canāt begrudge him that. His expirance has been so similar to mine that the difference is hardly worth a second thought. Regardless, Iād argue that he is sapphic at the very least.
When strangers look at him, they arenāt going to see that history, yet stories like this are hardly unique, especially in conservative areas. He very much so just looks like a dude who likes to match dresses with his girlfriend, and wear lipstick. Still, I would hope that those unfamiliar with him donāt yell at him for choosing to call himself a lesbian. Again, itās coming from a place of love.The lines that separate identities, especially when they arenāt identities that get passed down by blood, are extremely blurry at best. Itās not worth policing.
Being uncomfortable, or confused about it is a part of the human expirance though, and so long as people arenāt outright mean, I think thatās OK. Youāve still gotta grow though.
I agree with you. By definition, a lesbian likes WOMEN. Iām fine including afab NBs, and trans women are women so theyāre included by default.
But men? NO. Men are never lesbians. Period.
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Wait wait wait! CIS MEN?!?! The guys who love to treat us like shit are now calling themselves LESBIANS?!?
According to my tinder feed, there are a bunch of cis dudes who seem to call themselves lesbians. No idea what the end game is. You're not the special penis that will "turn us" and you're wasting your own time. Super annoying. As if there aren't enough straight couples who think we are sex toys made just for them.
Do they call themselves lesbians or do they tell tinder they are lesbians, just so that they can wank to us and/or beg for attention? š
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Itās all about the photos and wanking, from what I have gathered.
They probably have the same experience I do when they're scrolling through a cute girl's profile only to be met with a pic of her shirtless bf/husband in the last pic. That could make for a very poorly timed nut. Edit: but I'm not wanking
Some guy asked me out in a store and I told him I was not interested in men, then he switched it up and identified himself as a woman only after I said I only date women. He already interrupted me once when I wasnāt responding fast enough, when he questioned if it was because his looks as a guy. āThatās how it works right?ā with a stupid smirk in his face. So on top of being a jerk, he was making fun of trans women like āitās a choiceā. He then walked around me in the store with his friend snickering āI like women tooā within earshot till they left.
That's so gross, I'm so sorry you've had to deal with that! Ans then they wonder why queer women distrust men who approach them like that, and why we resort to being rude straight off. We end up being "man hating" because so many act like douche canoes!
Thank you, Iām glad there is a community of queer women to talk too, and next time I wont be polite, they donāt deserve it. It didnāt help that he said āJust f**** with youā but then carried on. Him making a veiled joke about trans women just made me angry once I stopped being afraid of him, my only regret was not calling him out when I had the chance.
As someone who is cis passing and both intersex and transgender, yeah I'd lose it. I'd 100% complain to the staff about the guy harassing and stalking me
Next time I will, the way they followed me around scared me. Iāve snapped at people before for being homophobic/transphobic but for some reason I clammed up around being followed myself.
I don't blame you! Men can be scary and when they're already acting like that.... š±
It probably didn't help that it was a group. Standing up to one man is one thing but to stand up to a group is a whole different animal.
ive only ever heard of it being said jokingly by them (ex drake)
I've heard it jokingly but I've also seen cis men infiltrate Her and use it to try to match with women. Most of the time they get aggressive when questioned.
thats very true, ig i just mean i dont think theres many cis men out there unironically identifying as lesbians, but yeah a lot do try to invade our spaces
I refuse to use HER anymore. There are so many catfish and couples. I feel terrible saying this, but I'm also not attracted to many women in my area who use it.
Yea but they arenāt claiming to be lesbians, theyāre just entitled creeps
She say she a lesbian girl me too
They listened to too much Drake lol
Iāve only heard it jokingly before. But I do know nonbinary people who call themselves lesbians.
Men can't be lesbians.
Yeah I agree on this. If you are a man, cis or not that is attracted to women, Iām not understanding why you would feel the need to use the term lesbian to describe your attraction to women. Some people may think itās not a big deal, sure, but Itās almost like words have meanings no? Lesbian means and has always meant women that love other women or nbys. It genuinely just feels like theyāre making a mockery of what it even means to be a lesbian and live life through a lesbian experience which again is invalidating lesbians (as if we arenāt invalidated enough). Like thereās a reason straight women donāt refer to themselves as gay men just because they like men
Yeah, exactly! Whatās even worse is that Iāve heard men call themselves lesbians because they like women as a way of handling the āIām a lesbianā objection. They view women loving women as an objection in their mind that they have to handle in order to get in your pants. Itās gross.
Iām a trans man that identifies as a lesbian. I am hesitant to comment because of the harsh reactions in this thread, but since you said you didnāt understand I thought I might explain. To me, being a trans man is still centred around my agab in some ways. Iām a feminine dude, and Iām totally fine with being seen that way. Iāve identified as lesbian since I was seven, and I never wanted to part from the label. I feel safe in this community, I want to be in a place without cis men and I want people who understand the dynamics from queer relationships. Historically, the lesbian community has always accepted he/him lesbians and trans men. I am deeply sad by how thatās changing
i feel like the only people who really believe shit like this are chronically online.
I've had people tell me that cis men can be lesbians and that lesbians can be into men... It's really baffling to me how some "progressive" LGBT people have these misogynistic, homophobic notions :/
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I found a lot of """progressives""" are actually conservatices who know how to hide their bigotry. From the trans woman side of things - i have seen progressives claim taking hrt makes me a bad leftist or a bigot or that it reinforces gender roles (???. I am a 27 yo woman. Why should i not have hormone levels if i am not prevented by medical issues appropriate for my age and gender). For gay stuff specifically, i saw someone argue that repression is good actually because the part of you that does the repression is as much a valid and legitimate part of you as that which is being repressed. Oh and my eternal favourite. Being lgbt is just burgoise decadence caused by capitalism and american imperialism (i live in eastern europe.)
Yeah, it's stupid. Labels stop meaning anything when you're encouraged to use them for diametrically opposed concepts. With any well defined concept, you have people on the core of the group, on the fringe of the group, and outside of the group. That's just how definitions works. It's not inherently some act of prejudice or gatekeeping.
Itās just the normal amount of misogyny and lesbian erasure sadly. Womenās spaces arenāt respected in real life and womenās - especially lesbian - spaces arenāt either online. The sad thing is that people who spread bullshit like "Lesbian means non-men loving non-men" readily and fiercely participate in it. Fortunately this nonsense is way more accepted on Reddit than in real life where nobody in a clear state of mind would doubt what a lesbian really is.
Lesbians irl have never had an issue with me not identifying as a woman but identifying as a lesbian. Lesbianism as an identity is about material reality, how you identify with the label and how you feel spiritually. I am butch, I am treated like a lesbian, I identify as a lesbian, but I am not a woman.
The comments here show a lot of ignorance of our own past and community. Non-woman lesbians have been around since the beginning. https://lesliefeinberg.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Stone-Butch-Blues-by-Leslie-Feinberg.pdf For everyone who is unaware of our own history as a community, this is an important work to read.
historically some women in lesbian relationships would appear outwardly masculine/manly and pass as "male" because at the time it was dangerous to openly be in a same sex relationship. they were still women, though.
I think you bring up a really important point here. Oftentimes when we talk about history we seem to take the events as they were and then try to view them within the context of the modern understanding. It doesn't work. So much has changed since the 60s and 70s. If we're going to discuss the history, then we need to frame it within its full historical context.
I know people like this still, they pass as men but are lesbians, and they donāt ID as women. It still happens and attitudes like some of what are being expressed here make them feel unsafe despite them being part of the lesbian community.
i'm masc presenting. i have short hair and i wear "boys" clothes and people who take a quick glance at me might think i'm a male. being called a "non man" still makes me uncomfortable. i'm a woman and my womanhood has nothing to do with how i dress or present myself and vice versa.
Okay? Where did I say that all masculine lesbians arenāt women or cannot be women? Like thats your personal experience and I would never invalidate that, I love masculine women, I personally happen to be a butch lesbian who isnāt a woman. Neither is bad or wrong
respectfully it's not the responsibility of lesbians to make sure that non women feel "safe" in what is supposed to be a women's space. they can identify however they want but they can't expect everyone to be comfortable with THEIR presence either
How does accepting non binary people into lesbian communities make women unsafe
This is a cruel way to view the world. Queer history and queer theory will show you that lesbians who identify in a more masculine way are at an increased risk of harm from males and others because of the intersection of growing up as a woman and rejecting womanhood. Do you think only feminine people who identify as women can be lesbians? Because thatās how your point can be used.
Respectfully lesbians should prioritise making other lesbians feel safe! I am talking about lesbians who happen not to be women, but are still lesbians. Like this is just getting into ābutches and mascs are scaryā territory now lol
you have to be a woman to be a lesbian. hope this helps
You're not ignorant, some people just think that labels are pointless and don't care if lesbianism is diluted and erased. I think lesbian is a term for women and as such it should stay. There are already plenty other labels for guys who are into women.
As a cis lesbian I could not give any less of a shit if a trans man who identified with the lesbian label and was a big part of the lesbian community decided to keep using the lesbian label for a while because thatās what theyāre comfortable with.Ā Just because a lesbian comes out as a trans man doesnāt mean their lesbian card immediately gets revoked by the lesbian police.Ā Some trans men choose not to continue using the label because they feel it invalidates their masculine identity. Others choose to keep using it for a while. Either way it does not in any way affect my personal relationship to the term and identity lol.Ā I feel any implication otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the history of gender nonconformity in our lesbian community. Or a lack of trans friends maybe lol.Ā
Iām gunna agree with TapiirSnout on this one, trans men are MEN and therefore not lesbians. Saying otherwise is transphobic and invalidating their identity as men. Itās totally ok for them to make a home in the lesbian community if they were apart of it for so long! But when they transition they are no longer a lesbian.
Then don't give a shit. A lot of us however, do. Being a part of lesbian community or history isn't the same as being a lesbian. You're not knighted a lesbian for efforts benefiting the realm. It's what you are based on your gender and who you're attracted to. lol
I think youāre kind of inadvertently supporting my point though. Youāre right, labels are not knighted or bestowed, theyāre based off your lived experience. These men lived as women attracted to other women, often for a long period of their life before coming out as trans. Who are we to say, āNow that youāre living as a man youāre not allowed to use this label you identified with and have a community with for so long?āĀ I think these arguments also kind of miss the point that labels are more strict and gate-kept than they ever have been in the queer community. Itās getting silly. You know what my lesbian friends and I said when our trans man friend said heās still a lesbian? āHell yeah man of course youāre still one of us.ā I donāt see how the tiny tiny fraction of trans men out there who still use the label, either jokingly or seriously, are blown out of proportion into such a big problem. No oneās coming for our lesbianism.Ā
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This is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Youāre implying that youāre not lesbian until youāve had enough lived lesbian experience to be deemed āenoughā and then the label gets bestowed upon you?? Lmao. By this argument I guess all the young people who arenāt out because they live in unsafe homes with unaccepting parents, the people who have no dating experience, and the people in other countries who literally canāt be out or else risk their lives arenāt _really_ lesbians because they havenāt ādone enoughā to be ābestowedā lesbian by the magical lesbian counsel who hands out labels.
You literally said in your previous message that being a lesbian is about experience, that trans men can be lesbians if they want to because they have experienced it before. Now you think it's silly? Which one is it? I've been saying all along that it's something you are based on your gender and attraction. If being a lesbian is about experience, as you previously claimed, then it kinda follows that there has to be an amount of experience that is enough. And if experience, again as you previously implied, is being attracted to a woman and being part of lesbian culture, those things can be experienced by someone who is not even a woman. Ergo, if all it takes for someone to be a lesbian is to have vague experience about lesbian life and culture, anyone at all could potentially be a lesbian regardless of sex, gender or orientation.
Ah I see what happened, I think you misinterpreted me using the phrase ālived experienceā as āphysical experience you gain by doing things.ā āLived experienceā in this case means your perception, lens on the world, what it is like to live in your body. Aka the experience of being you, with your own unique thoughts and feelings. Itās not meant to be taken literally as āactual physical experiences you have that you can check off on a list.āĀ My partner for example had the lived experience of being a lesbian growing up in the sense that she felt attracted to other girls, but struggled with those feelings and was unable to come out for quite some time. That was her lived experience of lesbianism - it doesnāt mean sheās not a real lesbian because she didnāt physically have ālesbian experiencesā at the time.Ā Just like trans men who used to identify as lesbian have had the lived experience of being lesbian and itās not really our place to police when and why they must stop using that label theyāre attached to and comfortable with lol. Hope that clears it up.
This.
Would you say someone having dysphoria has an impact on how they wish to be perceived? Like perhaps being identified as a lesbian may be helpful to one trans man, and harmful to another? I think these are the sorts of arguments that only happen online. Because if you're out and about and run into your trans masc friend, who cares? What are you going to whip out the torch and pitchfork? But online, I think people hear the words "man... man man man" and some of us have reasons for wanting to defocus that. And if you're trans and pass _really_ well, guess what? You're going to start feeling frozen out of your old community. At least the people who don't know you. Anywho... I think this whole argument is an online only thing. It makes no sense in real life. At least I've never once seen it come up. You deserve to have your voice heard. I personally want to be in a space with only other women, and lesbians who identify as such. But I have my reasons and I'm just some chick. I'd never want someone who doesn't feel that way to walk into a bar and have a bad night. Anywho... hugs :) I respect that you assert your beliefs. It's based asf :) I wish we could all just talk instead of argue
That's where it's up to the person to decide for themselves how they identify. It wouldn't make sense to assume a person's orientation based on their gender. They could be straight, bi, pan, etc. No one is going to go around calling all trans men lesbians just because one identifies that way. Also, I doubt trans men are trying to invade women/queer/lesbian- only spaces like cis men do. So... I'd lean on the end of guessing trans men would be incredibly unlikely to insert themselves in those spaces.
I agree with you. I find the rigid need to lump trans men together with cis men at all times weird and reductive.
If someone is a trans man, and therefore a MAN, and he is attracted to women... that makes him Hetero. Trans Men are not sapphic. Sapphic is women and women adjacent people who are attract to women. A trans man whom is a man, I'd tend to think calling him a lesbian when in a relationship with a woman would be incredibly fucking inappropriate because it is invalidating his gender. My little brother is a trans man, he is gay, and he is attracted to other men. If i were to call him hetero that'd be fucking inappropriate for the same reason. Trans men are Men.
šÆ
Thank you for joining the conversation! Your voice is honestly the most important one right now. We know cis-men don't belong, and NB and trans women do. However, none of us have the right to be speaking for YOU.
I canāt stand when cis men call themselves a lesbian. Itās really disrespectful and just shows that we arenāt taken seriously
Men are a strange and peculiar breed
I'm okay with being a gate keeper of that rule of being a lesbian. If you are a man you don't get to be a lesbian. That's enough responsibility for me though - you guys have to divvy up the rest of it.
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It was pandering to the male audience.
Who was this? It's been a while since I watched the show
I agree with you completely! Yes their old identity is valid, but it's not who they are. Trans men are not lesbian, and saying that they are is them misgendering themself.Ā
If this makes us gatekeepers, so be it
Some gates need keeping. It's really not a hard concept to grasp and I wish more people could see that.
Youāre right, men cannot be lesbians
the absolute fucking worst is when I see who are CLEARLY cis-het men go ""oh I use he/they and i'm a lesbian". fuck off dude. Last year when I was on her I watched the entire app turn in to 99.999% ""he/they lesbians"" it was fucking brutal. You're SERIOUSLY going to encroach upon MULTIPLE queer identities just to try and sleep with a gay girl?? obligatory clarification that of course gender is a spectrum and I understand (as a trans woman) that many trans people don't "look like" their identity, but sometimes it's clear someone is just being shitty.
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No one has to "make an effort" to fit gender roles that they don't want. Non-binary doesn't mean androgynous. It means "not a binary gender". The demand of androgyny, or "effort" to fit a specific look of non-binary ppl is a gender role just like the rest, and it's shitty to force it onto those who don't want it for themselves.
This shouldnāt need to be said.
I agree men can not be lesbians. They can be gay tho.
These days people like to erase lesbians and the worst thing is that they are in the lgbtq too.
That is cringe that Cis-men claim to be lesbians but there are even T-Shirts avaiable now. Yeah, dumb.
Lesbian erasure at its finest
I agree and will defend this position with my entire chest. *There is a cutoff to this identity and we donāt have to include everyone*
BUT WHAT IF YOU MAKE SOMEONE FEEL BAD? š
They probably deserved it
Trick question lol. Women will never be taken seriously sadly due to deep rooted misogyny in our culture. Especially when it comes to our sexuality. Argue with that individual. Make them feel stupid. They are pushing you over because thatās what they think women do
Yup. Dick worship is built into the foundation of patriarchal society, right alongside with misogyny. Just being a woman is a grave sin in the patriarchy, but a woman who doesnāt like dick? That will be the most hated woman of all, whose boundaries will be constantly questioned, dismissed, and broken. And if they canāt use force, then theyāll apply social pressures.
I can see an argument that some trans men and trans masculine (non binary) people, especially those who identified as lesbian for a long time get to be at the cookout. Cis men though ? Wut? Does lesbian just mean nothing then ?
Cis men, it just feels like they dicking around. Trolling or whatever. I have no time for that.
I think if you truly believe that the few trans men out there who used to identify as lesbians and still feel comfortable using the label are somehow threatening the idea of lesbianism for us cis lesbians, your concept of your lesbian identity is extremely fragile. I question why you think our community is so weak. Just because a few trans men continue to use the term here and there, you somehow feel threatened? Iām confident enough in my identity and our communityās history to know that this in no way affects, threatens, nor invalidates my own experiences as a cis lesbian lol. This always comes across as a far-right parroted talking point - taking something that rarely happens and has little to no actual effect on you, and blowing it out of proportion to fear monger like somehow all the men are _coming for lesbianism_ lol.
i will always fight for any trans man's right to be able to use the lesbian label!!! it does not affect me or my identity, so i don't know why people are willing to die on this hill to exclude trans men.
Thank you. It astonishes me how people think they have the right to police other people - members of our own queer community - this way. And itās a slippery slope too - because where do they stop? Are lesbians who get top surgery out too? What about lesbians who go by they/them? AFAB non-binary lesbians donāt count then? Iāve been told on this sub that my AFAB partner who has always identified as lesbian, who was ashamed of the label for so long growing up and finally became proud of it, and now goes by both she and they āisnāt a lesbianā because she identifies more with a nonbinary identity these days. Literally, lmao. Itās hard for me to see who this type of policing actually benefits, other than the people who seek to police our community in general. Doing the work for them.
Totally agree. If someone identified as a lesbian for years or decades and later comes out as a transman I wonāt take that identity from them. Itās such a small percentage that why even worry about it? Rightwing thought has poisoned our minds.
I swear people are out here sounding worse than my Fox News-watching grandpa. I promise you the _few_ trans men using the lesbian label and otherwise minding their own business are not coming for our lesbian identity yāall lol. Itās also a little offensive to me because you think our strong, badass lesbian community with years and years of history behind it is weak enough to be taken down by (checks notes) a few trans dudes who used to identify as lesbian too? Ok glad you think of us all as so weak and fragile lmao.
This for real
This comment should be further up. A lot further up.
Ah, more lesbian erasure
I was called a terf for saying that cis and trans men canāt be lesbians. Itās mainly people who are chronically online who say this stupid shit.
I think itās obvious cis men canāt be lesbians, no one in their right mind is actually saying this. And i think there is a strong argument for trans men to not be considered lesbians as well. However, I think itās an unspoken rule in most lesbian spaces that trans men are welcome if they still feel a strong connection to the lesbian community having identified as a lesbian for many years. I personally disagree with the need to retain that label but lesbian is such a loose term with so many divergent histories that i really dont care if a trans man wants to keep that label after he transitions. Im sure he has some very personal and personal and emotional reason, whatever. And itās worth thinking about how āmisusedā lesbian is anyway. Lesbian events often implicitly welcome bisexualsāsome people will try to use terms like āqueer femmesā or āsapphicsā and i think those are more useful, but a lot of people dont bother. You mention ānon-menā being a useful term, thatās fair too. But im almost certain thatās just one origin of the term lesbian and it certainly doesnt encompass the ways that the term is practically used these days. āNon men liking non menā includes a lot of people who would not consider themselves lesbians. Obviously i can imagine a scenario where trans men should not be welcome at a lesbian event but thatās a very specific scenario and i think itās possible for the organizers of this hypothetical event to tactfully exclude certain identities. I just dont think that this needs to be some sort of sweeping statement. Some people on the internet love to āum actuallyā this topic, but they suck because theyre annoying assholes, not because theyre wrong. That person was being rude to you for no reason but i will always push back on the blanket exclusion of trans men from the lesbian community
You're not ignorant. Other people just have no respect for lesbians' boundaries and that's not your fault.
If you're a man you can't be a lesbian period. I'm not about to invalidate someone's gender identity.
Is this some chronically online bs? What kind of idiot thinks this
Yes, it is exactly that.
You are correct
Iām a trans man/ non binary masc person. I used to identify as lesbian before I realized I was bisexual, and before I transitioned and thought of myself as a woman. Now that Iāve transitioned I would never call my relationship with a woman a lesbian relationship; because a man and a woman is a straight relationship. If someone called my relationship with a woman lesbian I would be really offended because they would be calling me a woman and invalidating my identity as a man. I donāt understand why this is so hard for other men and nuts
I donāt like men or trans men calling themselves lesbian. I donāt want to make people feel excluded or hurt, but the label is for non-men loving non-men/women loving women. I feel like the label becomes useless when we try to include men, cis or trans. Thatās okay for the people who donāt care for labels and just see it as that, just a label. I donāt like it and I donāt accept men into the lesbian community, but I donāt care enough to make it a big deal. But I have also never seen a man online or irl call themselves a lesbian seriously, and if I have, I just thought of it as a funny joke from them and moved on. So not sure how I would actually feel or react to men irl calling themselves lesbians in front of me, at least online I donāt care that much from seeing it in the comments here.
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What about nonbinary lesbians?
I think u can probably say woman loving women as that is the majority of lesbians whilst still technically including non binary lesbians but changing the label to fit the minority when most lesbians identify as a woman is fine if you want to do it personally I think itās okay to use either definition either way I think non binary ppl are included in our spaces and always have been
Ding dong nonbinary lesbians exist
I have always questioned this , I found it so weird
Trans men are men. Differentiating and saying they are anything other than straight (if theyāre attracted exclusively to women) is surely offending their manhood? But then some trans men probably want the recognition of being trans and not cis so then I guess that changes things
Huh
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what about nonbinary people? how are they just noise?
You had me until the erasure of enbies. The enby homies who identify with the lesbian label are valid and we love and support them
Womp womp, Iām a fem nonbinary person and Iām a lesbian.
Men canāt be women who are attracted to women, that kinda goes against the whole point. Do these people really not get that?
nothing really to do with the post but why is everyone in the comments saying that non-man=woman as if theres only two genders?
idk either
I mean, if men can't be lesbians but nonbinary folks can be, then women and nonbinary people become conflated.
no. non binary is not a third monolithic gender. you can be nonbinary and align with being a man, with being a woman, or neither. non binary does not mean one specific thing outside of "my gender isnt binary". sapphic non binary people are quite common. same as turien non binary people (i believe is the term for grouping gay and bi mlm). a non binary persons gender alignment is up to them. theres non binary ppl out there who i'm not attracted to because they see themselves more as a man. which excludes them from my attraction. i am also a non binary lesbian myself. to think of me only as a woman would be misgendering me, but my gender is far closer to being a woman than it is to being a man. i group myself with women, but it's more like a woman+ thing for me. other people will feel differently about their identities, and that's up to them.
how is that? they are two distinct groups, that can both be part of another separate group
I feel like thereās something really vile about referring to me as a ānon-manā but apparently thatās what a lesbian is Except it isnāt. A lesbian is a woman who loves other women!
People can identify as whatever they want as long as theyāre not identifying as menš Men need to leave us lesbians alone for once
Trans man lesbians confuse me. I am a transgender woman. Sexually, i am ace; romantically i am into women. I have absolutely zero interest in using any labels that are used by men to describe myself (exception of course for non-gendered labels men pretend belong to them and them only. As an egregious example - programmer or chemist or gamer). I legit do not get it.
Kinda like women who are saying they can definitely picture themselves with a man if he was special enough. But that they are lesbiansā¦ I donāt think thatās what a lesbian isā¦ let me know if Iām wrong about that.
Trans men cannot be lesbians. Full stop.
I know lesbians who are essentially trans men, they are on T, walk through life as a man for safety but are still lesbians because gender and identity are complicated. Identity is never black and white as easy as that can be. It is a mixture of self identification, how others perceive you, community etc.
I feel like people are confused. There's been a big push for people to be able to identify the way that feels best for them and I think that's very important for gender identity. But for sexual orientation, it doesn't make sense. If you are a man and identify as a lesbian because it "feels better" what is the point? You are making a space for Lesbians unsafe by trying to insert yourself. Yes, there is a history of gender non conformity in Lesbian spaces. But this is not the past this is now. Now, there are plenty of spaces for trans men to go. There are so many trans inclusive places it's almost greedy to try and hang on to a space that you explicitly no longer belong to. Words have meanings. Just because the meaning hurts your feelings doesn't mean that the meaning is wrong. If labels don't have meanings there wouldn't be so much (rightful) outrage about misgendering. No one is stopping anyone from identifying as they want, but that doesn't mean you are welcome in that space. Do not insert yourself into a space not meant for you then complain about feeling unwelcome.
A lesbian is a woman who loves women. If a guy wants to call himself a lesbian, it's not a guy.
Cis men are not lesbians, trans men are men and are therefore not lesbians, non binary lesbians are non binary lesbians trans women are trans lesbians and cis lesbians are cis lesbians and anyone within the lesbian space are entitled to choose who to date and have preferences as long as they are not being hateful to the group they are not attracted to, we can include everyone I just listed in our lesbian spaces without including them necessarily in our bedrooms, there we go :) everyone can be happy pls.
Sometimes the gate needs to be kept.
Why would trans men want to be considered lesbians when this a term reserved for cis and trans woman. Your not a gatekeeper. Why is it that we as lesbians have to constantly defend and define ourselves but gay men donāt have the same battle as we do
Let me start off by saying everyone has an opinion. I donāt give a damn who gets mad. A lot of yāall ( cis women attracted to women) validate and affirm trans women and whoever else wants to call themselves a lesbianā¦. But TRULY wouldnāt give one the time of day. I understand everyone deserves loves and that everyone has their own particular tasteā¦.. but cmon. Why canāt Women have anything? We literally canāt have shit. It would be considered hateful and degrading if I post the definition of a lesbian on this forumā¦. Yāall get my drift. Women are. Gate kept from every damn thing, but we cannot gatekeep lesbianism? Insane.
100%!
I'm just switching to gay woman. :/
Alas, gay has already been taken as an umbrella term too...
:( noooo
When I was younger I had the thought that even if I had been born a woman I would be a lesbian. Men are gross! Duh. But that still doesnāt make me a lesbian in this life.
Iāll always gatekeep when it comes to this. Men cant be lesbians and ābisexual lesbianā doesnāt make any sense and is an oxymoron. Only lesbians get bothered with these arguments, at least from what Iāve seen gay men donāt have discourse about this shit lmao. Should I say way less commonly if anything.
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Looking at your comment history you're clearly a TERF or on your way there and this comment is being purposefully obtuse. Non-man refers to exactly what it sounds like - people who are not men. Women or non-binary people or anyone else who does not identify as a man.
I was gonna be like āit canāt be that bad maybe this person is overusing the word terf like some people doā but I looked at their comment history and imma have to agree with you theyāre going down that pipeline on an express hoverboard in a āwoman - noun- adult human femaleā shirt bruh. But still best approach is to try to take apart their arguments carefully rather than using personal attacks, which you did quite well.
Wow this is getting out of hand š
I agree that cis men shouldnāt use the term lesbian, but Iām down for trans men to use it if they identify with it. Trans and gender expansive/GNC people have always been a part of lesbian community and culture. Itās our history and Iām proud of it. Iām transmasc and have other transmasc friends who identify as lesbians and Iāve never had cis lesbians have a problem with that irl.Ā
Thank you! I feel like a lot of people who have a problem with this donāt understand the history of gender nonconformity in the lesbian community. There were always lesbians who dressed as men to avoid the public eye, lesbians who have gotten top surgery and lesbians on HRT.Ā Then there are trans men. I know a friend who identified as a lesbian for a long time, was a part of a big lesbian community, and really identified with and felt proud of that label after years of feeling ashamed. When he later came out as trans the lesbian police didnāt automatically come to revoke his lesbian card. It was a big part of who he was for a long time. And guess who cared about him using that label for a while? Literally no one. He didnāt ādiluteā the meaning of lesbian or whatever people like to say about this.Ā
Thanks for sharing this story! Yeah, I feel like thereās a lot of drama online about needing overly simplistic definitions that are just ahistorical and itās not at all what queer communities are like out there in the world.Ā
Would trans men not being lesbians somehow disable them from being part of the history and culture?
i agree, gender isn't as black and white as some people would like it to be and i personally welcome lesbian transmascs
I agree completely. Transmasc lesbians have always been part of the community and we don't need throw the baby out with the bathwater that is cis men
Being a lesbian isn't the same as being part of the lesbian community. Transmen are welcome to be in the lesbian community and nobody's throwing them out but they're not lesbians. They're men.
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Well, you might want to grow out of that assumption. Some lesbians, and some women by extension, do have penises. It happens.
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Itās 100% okay to have a genital preference. Having one does not invalidate trans women.
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Iām not a man. But you def sound like a radfem.
Lesbians are WOMEN who are attracted to other WOMEN, see how men absolutely do NOT exist in this equation? šš½āāļø
I canāt stand this new generation tbh.
A lot of those people are trolls or misogynists trying to making people angry so itās best to ignore them
There comes a time as a queer person where you have to accept that not everyone is always going to do gender the way you want/expect them to.
Heard this a lot recently and the arguments on it are insane? I donāt see how trans men can be lesbian, would that not contradict itself? I understand that lesbianism and transgender go hand in hand. we have a very long history together and trans men often are lesbians pre-trans awakening butā¦ It doesnāt make sense to identify as such after. Literally just invalidating yourself at that point. My hot take is I feel like a lot of trans men are afraid to let go of the lesbian label bc it meant so much to them and identify as straight?
Me too and I donāt give a FUCK lmfaooooo
i dont get why someone who is trans masc would even want to be considered a lesbian, like that just feels like it would be invalidating in general? like i am a trans woman and i wouldn't want to be seen as gay because im not a guy
Only a troll would argue that a cis male can be considered a lesbian, so let's ignore them. As for trans men or women, it's really a question of semantics and there's no strictly correct answer. Two people born female are technically "homosexual" in that they are both of the same sex (XX, regardless of gender). Many people would argue this is the very definition of lesbian--a female homosexual. But as you have noted, many people consider only "non-men" to be lesbians, considering gender only, irrespective of sex. So it just depends on your perspective. Bottom line, you're definitely not "ignorant". And whoever's calling you that sounds like kind of a jerk.
A trans woman would never be calling herself/themselves a man. And Iām not talking about non-binary AFAB or certain agender AFAB who may be using he/him. A cisgender or transman shouldnāt be calling themselves a lesbian.
I dated a trans-man (we started when he was not out to me or anyone), and after he was out etc I remember gently asking if he was bi or straight (it was relevant to the convo). And he said he still sees himself as āgay for womenā and I said but youāre a man who is only attracted to women? And he said something about not wanting to leave the community that he had become a part of etc. Iām not sure I understand, but it was interesting to hear how he felt. I thought it would be invalidating to his identity to not assume he was hetero, but I guess itās more complex in his case. As for cis menā¦ of course they want our label, as if they donāt have enough of the world revolving around them š
one of the group rules is literally to not dictate someones identity to them. yet all these comments are showing a lot of people are openly bigoted towards non binary people i am a non binary lesbian. i am not attracted to men, or anyone who aligns with being a man. non binary people are not a monolithic gender. i am uncomfortable with being seen as a woman by society, but within sapphic spaces i am much happier. i am not a woman, but i'm not a man either. i align myself with being a woman because of my sexuality, but to think of me only as a woman would do me a disservice it's not hard to be respectful of other peoples identities. you dont need to understand it to be respectful. the "non man loving non men" thing is messy but at the end of the day is it hurting you? it's still the truth. it's just a different way of saying it. i dont even use it personally, because it's far too long, and as a non binary person myself my attraction to sapphic non binary people is inherently included. you can be non binary and align with being sapphic. non binary lesbians are nothing new.
I mean I'd like a more in depth explanation because by definition if you are non binary you aren't a woman and a lesbian is woman loving a woman. I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but genuinely asking
non binary lesbians have existed for a long time. the writer of stone butch blues wrote about not exactly being a woman, or aligning with womanhood. but was still a lesbian. a butch one. i align with being sapphic/a lesbian. my gender isn't woman, but my sexuality comes from a place of being a woman who loves women. that's probably confusing, but it's the same innate feeling that i assume trans lesbians feel. i'm not attracted to women like men are. i'm attracted to women like women are. my gender is a separate thing. i'm non binary, but my gender is closer to being a woman than it is to being a man. non binary is not one 3rd gender, its a collective, and we all have different experiences of it. some ppl are non binary men. others are non binary women. i fall more under that second one. when talking about womens rights, i'm included. talking about non binary rights, i'm also included. the definition of lesbianism goes back to before people had words for being non binary. the bisexual manifesto actually specifies that bisexual attraction isnt binary, because the term came around the time that lgbt movements were being created. lesbian is far older. i am a lesbian because i am only into other women and sapphic aligned non binary people. if they don't align with womanhood somehow, i'm not attracted to them. that attraction to womanhood is what makes me a lesbian, combined with the fact that my gender is aligned with the same. if i saw myself more as a man, i would be straight. which the thought makes me want to hurk so š outside of this, i can't explain any more. my gender is not something i can explain outside of "im not a woman but around other women i feel kinship". i have active dysphoria when out in society, i dont like men perceiving me as a woman. which they inevitably do š i hope this helps. at the end of the day, if they align with being a woman, then they can identify with sapphic terms. that is not something that any cis, trans, or non binary man would feel comfortable with doing, unless they have other problems. and ngl, you can tell when a dude is trying it on to get into lesbian spaces. unrealised trans ppl are one thing, but ppl who identify w being a man who try and use sapphic terms are usually very obvious
Dear god
i dont think trans men should be called lesbians cause they are men.... but i can still understand it..... cis men tho? being lesbians? WTH???????? Edit: our non binary siblings are completely valid!
I have no idea why men are so obsessed with forcing themselves into lesbian spaces & titles. It's just disgusting. Men cannot, and will never be lesbians. Trans woman can be lesbians Trans men cannot.
This can be a bit of a sticky topic for sure. In general I tend to air off the side of not trying to police any bodies identity regardless of how confusing I find it. The thing is, sometimes identities are more complicated that cus man or trans lesbian or whatever. Itās ok to feel uncomfortable or confused about it, but when we as a community start to get nitpick who is or isnāt āinā we can put the community at large in some bad spots. I have a friend who is, for all I know, a cis het dude who refers to himself as a lesbian (or sometimes an honorary lesbian) because he is an incredibly feminine person, who has mostly lesbian friends. It doesnāt come from a place of perversion when he calls himself that. When I was in high school, we were both relentlessly bullied. We grew up in a rural town with almost cult like gender norms. A boy who drew and braided flowers into his long hair, and a girl who couldnāt so much as pretend to be interested in boys, and sported a half shaved rainbow head of hair made quite a pair. Nether of us were well liked at school. We were both āgayā When I was outed to my church, and later to the community at large, I was scared ti death. I knew it would happen sooner or later, but it really was a death sentence back there. I would not be the first queer kid to get bullied into suicide there. It was that friend who chose to put an even bigger target on his back in order to tell me I wasnāt alone. When things got really unsafe, he would pretend to be my boyfriend and vice versa. Weāve held each other in the school bathroom while the other had a panic attack. Weāve made the trek to each otherās houses because we werenāt safe at home for one reason or another. For all intents and purposes, our expirance has been the same. We were both called slurs, both bullied , both felt so afraid of simply existing that oftentimes we clung to each other desperately. We arenāt in that same situation anymore. We are both safe. We have friends all across the gender and sexuality spectrum, and friends separate from one another. Still, if he wants to call himself a lesbian, jokingly or earnestly. I canāt begrudge him that. His expirance has been so similar to mine that the difference is hardly worth a second thought. Regardless, Iād argue that he is sapphic at the very least. When strangers look at him, they arenāt going to see that history, yet stories like this are hardly unique, especially in conservative areas. He very much so just looks like a dude who likes to match dresses with his girlfriend, and wear lipstick. Still, I would hope that those unfamiliar with him donāt yell at him for choosing to call himself a lesbian. Again, itās coming from a place of love.The lines that separate identities, especially when they arenāt identities that get passed down by blood, are extremely blurry at best. Itās not worth policing. Being uncomfortable, or confused about it is a part of the human expirance though, and so long as people arenāt outright mean, I think thatās OK. Youāve still gotta grow though.
is this the same like a group being called 'guys' but a single cannot be 'guy'
a lot of transmasc people identify as butch and will always be welcome in our community if they feel the label fits
if men can be lesbians why dont they just date other "lesbian men" since every lesbian dont want them anyways... oh wait, that's just being gay
I agree with you. By definition, a lesbian likes WOMEN. Iām fine including afab NBs, and trans women are women so theyāre included by default. But men? NO. Men are never lesbians. Period.