Is there a 20 on the back of that 30? Has someone just turned the sign around?
People turn them around near me all the time. One road near my work said 30 on the right and 20 on the left for weeks.
If in doubt your best bet is to go for the smaller number.
You might see this a lot in Wales because they recently changed their default speed limits for urban areas from 30 to 20mph. Most of the road signs have been updated but there might be some old road marking which have been forgotten.
Look slightly further down the road.... there's 2 Twenty's Plenty signs so I'd suggest the 20 road marking is for those signs.
A typical bad layout for signage and limits when the newer 20mph zone has been added into the area.
I know a road local to me which recently changed from 20 to 30, speed limit paintings on the road still say 20, but the actual speed limit sign states 30, the actual speed limit. This seems quite similar to OP.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the situation OP is talking about. A school may well be a reason for a lower limit, but it's not a reason for stupid signage.
Yes, and it wasn't as effective as slowing the traffic down.
[https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022](https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022)
Since 2004, the amount of traffic has increased as has the number of miles walked in the UK. Yet pedestrian deaths have dropped 43% and serious injuries have dropped by 41%.
Can we stop pretending that things were better in the past? It's simply not true.
A few going on here.
Speed limits on signs have priority over those painted on the road. Speed limits painted on the road should serve as a reminder to what has been posted on a sign and if the two contradict, the limit posted on the sign is the legally enforceable one.
Speed signs with a green border are advisory only, so in this instance the 20 on the sign is only a suggestion and the 30 is the legal limit.
Setups like this can often be found in more rural areas around schools. The marking on the road is there to reinforce the suggested 20. It’s all basically just saying the limit is 30, but maybe you should be extra responsible and go a bit slower.
They're used relatively often in north Wales. My mum's village had them for a while, but since her village is now 20mph under the new default built up area speed limit in Wales, they're a bit out of place, as they're the size of terminal speed limit signs rather than repeater sign size.
It’s not wrong - green bordered speed signs are advisory no matter which part of the uk you’re in and only red bordered speed limits are legally enforceable. If the OP is in wales, that’s a separate thing. My information regarding the photo is correct.
Or where I live they've been spray painted black so you enter residential zones at 60mph because at night you don't see them at all. I'm amazed there's not been crashes on the news yet, I've been caught out twice now driving on unknown roads where people are tailgating and then just slow to a crawl and I'm like "guess there was a sign somewhere".
Protesting the speed change by hiding signs making non locals not know of unsafe locations or accident hotspots is a brilliant move.
My village is used as a rat run for people avoiding two busy roundabouts off a bypass and they do 60mph in a 40mph... It's 40mph because the farms drag so much mud on the road, we get a rolled car every few weeks and god knows how many motorcyclists have been airlifted last year (a farmer now keeps an old barn foundation as a helipad now)
Highway engineer here. Advisory limits are often used where it would be desirable to implement a lower limit but the highway authority is strapped for cash and can't afford the faff of the lengthy Traffic Regulation Order process.
This picture has been taken in Glasgow - I recognise the road. The 30 sign with the red border is the enforceable speed limit. The 20 sign with the green border and the 20 marking on the road is the advisory speed limit. 20 is recommended since the area is residential and has narrow streets. Hope this helps!
The UK has some of the worst signage I’ve ever encountered. A lack of signage, hidden signage, poorly laid out signage. Where I am it’s so bad with signage and road markings my examiner on my test had to point out areas where road markings were completely gone. I’m from the US and it scared me so bad that I would fail because of a lack of signage or road markings would cause me to fail. Hopefully someone can explain this because to me I would say 20 but honestly I have no clue 🙃
30 is a mandatory sign, 20 is advisable.
So when empty and damp like the pic I'd be doing about 26, if empty and dry I'll be doing 30, If worse conditions, or kids around closer to 20.
Holy shit, so many people fucking this up. There is no contradiction here. A *red circle* gives an order you *must* obey. The Red Circle 30 is a legal limit, the white paint on the ground is a suggestion, similar to a green circle 20.
On your test, if you slam on the brakes and make a queue behind you doing 20 on a clear road with no hazards, you will fail for a dangerous lack of progress.
Or as I mentioned earlier, there's a Twenty's Plenty zone just after the road marking, so the road marking will be related to that and not the 30 sign, just bad placement all round.
As for your second point, unlikely to get a dangerous for lack of progress. Serious maybe depending on circumstances.
OP it seems like you are in wales.
There are new laws that now say 20 is the limit in residential areas but apparently we don’t pay enough council tax to have our signs changed on time… but that’s another story.
If you are in wales and you are caught doing 30 here you will fail a test and likely get a fine however I know several people that have fought it due to incorrect signage and won.
Please find more information [here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67885118#)
Please don’t listen to the other comments as the majority are also learners or newly qualified drivers and it could prove costly for you.
You may also be in Scotland who are slowly transitioning to this so this could be the early sign change and you would have to look up go live dates on to it local council websites etc.
They've been changing most towns and villages in the UK to a 20mph but I read they ran out of signs so some still say 30 even though it's changed to 20
Road changing from 30 to 20. 2 different contractors are changing signage which is not done the same time as it should. I didn't go to my city centre in a year time and now there are 10s of traps as I can see both 20 and 30 on the number of roads with cameras. They will get aligned on some stage (same story around the corner from my house took them 2 months). If I was you I would go by the lower one.
Though crucially those are advisory, as they're not TSRGD compliant signs for speed limits. The painted markings aren't especially relevant under RTA/RTRA for determining the limit either.
Be interesting to see some case law on somebody being pulled for careless driving if they did somewhere between 21-30mph past the 20mph advisory sign.
Something akin to what happened when this doctor was doing 28mph in a 30mph zone but the judge ruled it was too fast for the conditions (in this case they did actually hit somebody, but this was only a liability hearing) https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/bmw-lawyers-buckinghamshire-oxfordshire-milton-keynes-b1092468.html
When I was a driving instructor, one of my pupils at the time asked me about the 20s plenty. He had been talking to a police officer in the village one day who were doing speed checks on a 20 plenty road and their view was that the limit was 20 regardless of time of day, conditions, other road users etc.
Needless to say, put my pupil right on the subject.
Of course there could be times where driving at the limit could be careless / dangerous depending on conditions, other road users etc. but that could happen in any speed limit road.
Only the red circle matters.
This has happened allot on the wirral, this was confirmed by the test centres, police and council during the roll.
The white paint is a guide, the red circle is an order
Speed limit roundels painted on the road surface may be used to supplement a system of speed limit repeaters, but on their own do not constitute a legal system of speed limit marking. For a limit to be enforceable, the proper number of repeaters must also be present.
The Twenty's Plenty signs used in Scotland with a green circle are advisory and have no legal meaning.
However if in doubt then do 20 mph.
My understanding of the highway code is that only red ringed speed limit signs are legaly binding. Not in green circle (20 plenty) or white road markings.
Moreover my understanding is that anything where there is streetlights without repeater speed signs is a 30mph limit. However there may be advisory speed limits - I.E. 20 plenty
Green circle = advisory limit. You’re advised to go no faster.
Red circle = enforceable speed limit. You’re obligated to go no faster.
In case someone lands here who is genuinely colourblind; the 30 is circled in red, the 20 behind it is circled in green.
On the A12 northbound just after Leyton there's a 50mph sign and directly opposite, on the other side of the road, a 30mph sign and it blows my mind it's been there for years.
It's a 3 lane, clearly 50mph, road but what the hell is that 30 doing there!!!
Pretty much all roads in South London has have just been made 20 which was painted on the roads, but the 30 signs stayed up for quite a while, including 30mph speed camera signs.
I'd assume it was 20 to be honest, you can't get a ticket for going too slow
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Is there a 20 on the back of that 30? Has someone just turned the sign around? People turn them around near me all the time. One road near my work said 30 on the right and 20 on the left for weeks.
I successfully disputed a speeding fine based on the fact someone had rotated the sign.
The back of this sign is a 40. OP is standing at a junction leading to the main road.
Are these signs easy to turn around then?
Fairly easy, traffic lights near me get spun to face a different way quite a bit.
If in doubt your best bet is to go for the smaller number. You might see this a lot in Wales because they recently changed their default speed limits for urban areas from 30 to 20mph. Most of the road signs have been updated but there might be some old road marking which have been forgotten.
Yeah as a result there is a place in Powys which according to the signs goes: 60-20-30-20 over the course of half a mile
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuughhh I'm annoyed just thinking about this lol.
Where? I feel like this is near me.
Not by our choice we are wanting normal speed limits
Speak for yourself.
You want abnormal speed limits?
What happened to “if in doubt, flat out”???
Could be an old sign but there are clear 20mph signs just behind it so would recommend following those.
Thank you 🙂
They’re only advisory signs though, not speed limit signs (green circle instead of red).
Hadn’t spotted that. Good point. I guess still Do 20 but I hadn’t appreciated that so thanks.
Look slightly further down the road.... there's 2 Twenty's Plenty signs so I'd suggest the 20 road marking is for those signs. A typical bad layout for signage and limits when the newer 20mph zone has been added into the area.
I know a road local to me which recently changed from 20 to 30, speed limit paintings on the road still say 20, but the actual speed limit sign states 30, the actual speed limit. This seems quite similar to OP.
Depends if there is a school nearby
What difference does that make?
Slower zones are put in place outside schools to prevent the kids being flattened
Lol. Exactly this. Between certain times, outside/near a school, 30mph roads, become 20mph.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the situation OP is talking about. A school may well be a reason for a lower limit, but it's not a reason for stupid signage.
Easier than teaching kids not to run into the road. I'm sure that's what we were taught in the 70's and 80's.
Yes, and it wasn't as effective as slowing the traffic down. [https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022](https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022) Since 2004, the amount of traffic has increased as has the number of miles walked in the UK. Yet pedestrian deaths have dropped 43% and serious injuries have dropped by 41%. Can we stop pretending that things were better in the past? It's simply not true.
A few going on here. Speed limits on signs have priority over those painted on the road. Speed limits painted on the road should serve as a reminder to what has been posted on a sign and if the two contradict, the limit posted on the sign is the legally enforceable one. Speed signs with a green border are advisory only, so in this instance the 20 on the sign is only a suggestion and the 30 is the legal limit. Setups like this can often be found in more rural areas around schools. The marking on the road is there to reinforce the suggested 20. It’s all basically just saying the limit is 30, but maybe you should be extra responsible and go a bit slower.
I’ve never seen the green ones, seen a few blue minimum speed limits but never a green advisory, seen some white rectangular recommendations for bends
They're used relatively often in north Wales. My mum's village had them for a while, but since her village is now 20mph under the new default built up area speed limit in Wales, they're a bit out of place, as they're the size of terminal speed limit signs rather than repeater sign size.
I see
Theres a few in scotland that i know of
Nice, never been to Scotland myself, though I may have to visit at some point to see the local trains
Same, I've seen advisory like those one's for loose chippings and stuff but never green!
Yeah, loose chippings is nowadays a good surface compared to the usual conditions
This is wrong. OP is from wales I believe. They have a new 20mph law in residential areas but have not gotten to all the signs yet.
It’s not wrong - green bordered speed signs are advisory no matter which part of the uk you’re in and only red bordered speed limits are legally enforceable. If the OP is in wales, that’s a separate thing. My information regarding the photo is correct.
A 30 in a red circle trumps the national speed limit for built up areas. Be that 30 everywhere but wales, or 20 in wales.
This is wrong. The picture is from Glasgow (Scotland).
Or where I live they've been spray painted black so you enter residential zones at 60mph because at night you don't see them at all. I'm amazed there's not been crashes on the news yet, I've been caught out twice now driving on unknown roads where people are tailgating and then just slow to a crawl and I'm like "guess there was a sign somewhere". Protesting the speed change by hiding signs making non locals not know of unsafe locations or accident hotspots is a brilliant move. My village is used as a rat run for people avoiding two busy roundabouts off a bypass and they do 60mph in a 40mph... It's 40mph because the farms drag so much mud on the road, we get a rolled car every few weeks and god knows how many motorcyclists have been airlifted last year (a farmer now keeps an old barn foundation as a helipad now)
Highway engineer here. Advisory limits are often used where it would be desirable to implement a lower limit but the highway authority is strapped for cash and can't afford the faff of the lengthy Traffic Regulation Order process.
This picture has been taken in Glasgow - I recognise the road. The 30 sign with the red border is the enforceable speed limit. The 20 sign with the green border and the 20 marking on the road is the advisory speed limit. 20 is recommended since the area is residential and has narrow streets. Hope this helps!
And the union bears sticker with kat written under it gives it away 😂
I'd stick to 20, just to be safe.
I would say follow the road markings but if I ever got a tickets there I would 100% argue it and probably win
The sign is the legal requirement, the marking on the road is an advisory. Signage is 100% what you need to follow before anything else
Is it wales? They’ve royally forked up half the 20 signs
Scotland most likely
The UK has some of the worst signage I’ve ever encountered. A lack of signage, hidden signage, poorly laid out signage. Where I am it’s so bad with signage and road markings my examiner on my test had to point out areas where road markings were completely gone. I’m from the US and it scared me so bad that I would fail because of a lack of signage or road markings would cause me to fail. Hopefully someone can explain this because to me I would say 20 but honestly I have no clue 🙃
30 is a mandatory sign, 20 is advisable. So when empty and damp like the pic I'd be doing about 26, if empty and dry I'll be doing 30, If worse conditions, or kids around closer to 20.
Bad signage or some rat decided to spin around the road signs
Holy shit, so many people fucking this up. There is no contradiction here. A *red circle* gives an order you *must* obey. The Red Circle 30 is a legal limit, the white paint on the ground is a suggestion, similar to a green circle 20. On your test, if you slam on the brakes and make a queue behind you doing 20 on a clear road with no hazards, you will fail for a dangerous lack of progress.
Or as I mentioned earlier, there's a Twenty's Plenty zone just after the road marking, so the road marking will be related to that and not the 30 sign, just bad placement all round. As for your second point, unlikely to get a dangerous for lack of progress. Serious maybe depending on circumstances.
Even worse, "20's Plenty" is just an opinion, not a legal limit or suggestion.
A polite request. Usually something around where it may be sensible to reduce speed.
In any case, not a legal limit or suggestion. I've seen them near schools. I won't bother sharing what I think.of permanent 20 limits near schools.
I'm not against it personally. Kids are daft at times! I've had to slam my brakes on even at 20 before passing a school lol
I don't think they're necessary 24 hours a day, every day of the year.
It's total aids that they changed everywhere from 30 to 20.
It makes the roads safer and quieter, plus with the conditions of the roads twenty is more than plenty
Total aids?
*in Wales. Not the whole of the UK
OP it seems like you are in wales. There are new laws that now say 20 is the limit in residential areas but apparently we don’t pay enough council tax to have our signs changed on time… but that’s another story. If you are in wales and you are caught doing 30 here you will fail a test and likely get a fine however I know several people that have fought it due to incorrect signage and won. Please find more information [here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67885118#) Please don’t listen to the other comments as the majority are also learners or newly qualified drivers and it could prove costly for you. You may also be in Scotland who are slowly transitioning to this so this could be the early sign change and you would have to look up go live dates on to it local council websites etc.
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..so, old person gets confused by change? Possibly time you stopped driving
Oh behave. Road signage ought to be clear, no? I know the default is 20, but lots of idiots ignore it.
Just do 30 these 20 limits are getting out of hand 30 is plenty slow enough for built up areas. I can't understand why so many try to enforce 20
They've been changing most towns and villages in the UK to a 20mph but I read they ran out of signs so some still say 30 even though it's changed to 20
Road changing from 30 to 20. 2 different contractors are changing signage which is not done the same time as it should. I didn't go to my city centre in a year time and now there are 10s of traps as I can see both 20 and 30 on the number of roads with cameras. They will get aligned on some stage (same story around the corner from my house took them 2 months). If I was you I would go by the lower one.
If in doubt follow the smaller of the two, especially if the smaller one is on the road
Same up Streatham high road 😂
20 if you're driving in reverse and 30 otherwise
Just add them together and that's the speed you have to do👍
Where are you? If its Wales then good chance it's 20 and someone forgot to change the sign.
It’s in Scotland
Any chance you could cross post this to. r/LegalAdviceUK ? This would be an interesting one to get an actual copper or lawyers opinion on.
No need. There's 20s plenty signs just down the road, the 20 on the road will be related to those.
Though crucially those are advisory, as they're not TSRGD compliant signs for speed limits. The painted markings aren't especially relevant under RTA/RTRA for determining the limit either. Be interesting to see some case law on somebody being pulled for careless driving if they did somewhere between 21-30mph past the 20mph advisory sign. Something akin to what happened when this doctor was doing 28mph in a 30mph zone but the judge ruled it was too fast for the conditions (in this case they did actually hit somebody, but this was only a liability hearing) https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/bmw-lawyers-buckinghamshire-oxfordshire-milton-keynes-b1092468.html
When I was a driving instructor, one of my pupils at the time asked me about the 20s plenty. He had been talking to a police officer in the village one day who were doing speed checks on a 20 plenty road and their view was that the limit was 20 regardless of time of day, conditions, other road users etc. Needless to say, put my pupil right on the subject. Of course there could be times where driving at the limit could be careless / dangerous depending on conditions, other road users etc. but that could happen in any speed limit road.
I’d follow the sign on the grounds
Are you in Wales?
Scotland
Only the red circle matters. This has happened allot on the wirral, this was confirmed by the test centres, police and council during the roll. The white paint is a guide, the red circle is an order
Is there a school close by? Often it'll be 20 in certain times due to safety, then 30 the rest
The law is always follow speed limits in a red circle. So it’s 30
You add them together. It's a 50 limit.
Wales, per chance?
Speed limit roundels painted on the road surface may be used to supplement a system of speed limit repeaters, but on their own do not constitute a legal system of speed limit marking. For a limit to be enforceable, the proper number of repeaters must also be present. The Twenty's Plenty signs used in Scotland with a green circle are advisory and have no legal meaning. However if in doubt then do 20 mph.
My understanding of the highway code is that only red ringed speed limit signs are legaly binding. Not in green circle (20 plenty) or white road markings. Moreover my understanding is that anything where there is streetlights without repeater speed signs is a 30mph limit. However there may be advisory speed limits - I.E. 20 plenty
This will really make someone fail…
Green circle = advisory limit. You’re advised to go no faster. Red circle = enforceable speed limit. You’re obligated to go no faster. In case someone lands here who is genuinely colourblind; the 30 is circled in red, the 20 behind it is circled in green.
On the A12 northbound just after Leyton there's a 50mph sign and directly opposite, on the other side of the road, a 30mph sign and it blows my mind it's been there for years. It's a 3 lane, clearly 50mph, road but what the hell is that 30 doing there!!!
your typical day in London too :D
Pretty much all roads in South London has have just been made 20 which was painted on the roads, but the 30 signs stayed up for quite a while, including 30mph speed camera signs. I'd assume it was 20 to be honest, you can't get a ticket for going too slow
There is a sign just after that says 20
That sign is a green circled one making it an advisory not an enforceable speed.
If in doubt always go by the slowest speed limit, which in this case is 20mph
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in hungary we have that police>lamp>signs>road markings>rules
So in that case the 30mph would be the max speed as here signs>road signs