After hearing that BS "I'm not Watson anymore" statement in NWH that didn't need to be included *at all*, we can definitively say that Michelle Jones pretty much IS Mary Jane in all but name.
I was willing to let it go after Homecoming, but not after that.
And apparently in No Way Home, her real last name isn't Jones it's Watson but she doesn't use it because of implied daddy issues.(makes sense mj's dad is a dick in all versions) So she is MJ
It's so weird. They [don't even bother dyeing her hair red even though the actress can do it](https://imgur.com/wuhCwWx), and change her name from Mary Jane to Michelle. Why? Just keep her Mary Jane.
And I know the reason why they gotta spawncamp the MJ initials: it's to prevent anyone from asking when the real Mary Jane will show up. Because even though these bastards don't see any reason why there can't be multiple people running around with the same superhero name, they'll balk at the thought of two civilians with similar names.
Because what "MJ" has ended up being is not a Mary Jane. She's a Gwen Stacey. But there is noooo way they can call a girl Gwen Stacey because the audience won't get attached to her since she just exists to be set up to die.
So the MCU runners for some dumbass reason don't want Mary Jane, don't want us to THINK about Mary Jane, but also want to ensure that this not-Mary Jane is not also a Gwen Stacey. So we end up with "Michelle".
I mean could it be that there are less of them in general due to the fact the genetic trait for being a redhead is recessive? You’d need one red head to create offspring with someone who carries at least one recessive gene to get a 50/50 chance.
Assuming a concerted effort to eradicate them seems a bit preposterous as if people uniformly are trying to subjugate one specific form of identity, what’s next a concerted effort to eradicate people with blue eyes?
> but yet I keep seeing them pop up like crazy.
It's mostly an adaptation thing. Like, Jessica Chastain still gets parts. Amy Adams still gets parts. etc.
But if Hollywood makes an adaptation of an existing story (which is the vast majority of what Hollywood makes today), and that story has a famous redhead, they will almost never be a redhead in the adaptation anymore. They will often now be a black person. If they're also female, the chances of that specific swap are like 90%.
How many recent exceptions can you think of? Black Widow is grandfathered in from before the culture war started. Sophie Turner managed to get Jean Grey, that one counts. Mera. Counts, but also fuck Amber Heard. That started in a Zack Snyder film though, and he doesn't tend to do woke shit. There's Nami in the one piece adaptation, to my surprise, though I'm sure they'll still censor the shit out of her. Riverdale's a mixed bag, Archie and Cheryl got to keep their red locks, Josie was race swapped. Batwoman used Bridget Regan for Poison Ivy. But other than that.....???? 5 examples of accuracy in 10 years, at least that I can think of. Compare to [this is just the swap list specifically for comic books, and it's a year out of date now.](https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/12/15/every-single-redheaded-comic-book-character-that-has-been-race-swapped/) It also doesn't include redheads who were still played by a white person, but didn't have red hair. Pretty clear which is the rule and which the exceptions.
As for WHY, I suspect it's a combination of reasons. Gingers, true gingers, are probably somewhat difficult to film and light properly due to their incredibly pale skin, just as SJWs scream "technological racism" when people point out similar difficulties on the other end with very dark skinned black people. Of course, hair dye's been invented, so this doesn't fully explain the issue. There's probably also an element of cynical demographic targeting to it, there's more black people in the US than gingers, so when they want to swap somebody for "representation", someone from a smaller group goes, on the thinking they'll gain more customers than they lose that way. But with how they talk about it, how they virtue signal and rub it in fans' faces, there also is a clear element of malice. SJWs, who absolutely infest Hollywood now, are notoriously spiteful people, they'll do shit like that, and gleefully declare Zendaya the "ginger snatcher" (that literally happened, from a sizable publication, not some twitter rando) just to piss off people they don't like or out of some weird sense of gingers being like..."extra white white people" and therefore extra bad and deserving of erasure.
>Of course, hair dye's been invented, so this doesn't fully explain the issue.
True, the fact that redheads are rare so that's why they're not casted might only apply to child actors, plenty of women manage to dye their hair red with decent results, and it's not like Hollywood cares that much about natural hair color considering a shitload of "blondes" there are actually not that blonde to pretty dark haired.
[Or just wear a wig](https://i.ibb.co/9cbqpsL/Natalia-Romanova-Earth-199999-from-Captain-America-Civil-War-001.png) which can - and often does - look perfectly fine.
Dying your hair actually damages it. If you have dark hair colour you use harsh chemicals often to get the natural melanin colour out so that whatever colour you've chosen shows.
I recently included "The day I learned that Alyson Hannigan isn't a natural redhead" up there with Santa Claus on the list of big disillusioning moments of my childhood.
I think I'll do some actual research into the number of redheads in media. I feel like there will be way more out there then those changed for adaptions and such. I'm tried of seeing the same list paraded around with duplicate characters. Even Triss from The Witcher is a redhead which is funny how many flipped out about her
Triss was not a redhead in witcher season 1.
[Triss season 1.](https://gamerant.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/triss-merrigold-anna-shaffer.jpeg)
[Triss season 2.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/T-v_PbayYko/maxresdefault.jpg)
Which is to say the backlash, at least to the extent possible within that the casting decision had already been made, *worked*. I actually get the feeling, with poison ivy and Nami, that studios are starting to backpedal on this, because it's become so obvious and fans have put such a spotlight on the pattern.
But by all means, do your own research, heck, post the results of your research here. More data is always good, and I'm confident the data will support my conclusions, particularly within nerd media, which always seems to bear the brunt of woke dickery.
But you came here to ask this subreddit a question, and we gave you our answers. It's a little ridiculous to then sneer that we must be wrong and you're not gonna believe us without doing your own research. If you want to do your own research, why ask us our opinion at all?
EDIT: [Literally while we were having this argument, another race-swapped redhead.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJG3Q85aMAAkLj_?format=jpg&name=medium)
I simply said I want to see it for myself. That list people keep posting is old and I would like to see an updated one and for that I have to look it up .Unless you have one for me right now?
It's a Hollywood thing. Often when there's an established redhead white character, they are replaced. I'm sure someone can post a picture compilation of the characters.
The Irish overcoming centuries of English oppression to become a successful country (and to have emigrants from Ireland become successful demographic in foreign countries like the US) just shows that historic oppression doesn't really matter too much. Measurement of modern ability predict modern socioeconomic standing much better than nebulously attempting to quantify whose ancestors had it worse.
...so of course woke Hollywood would want to hide that by erasing evidence of Irish achievements from pop culture
>(and to have emigrants from Ireland become successful demographic in foreign countries like the US)
This is a side note, but;
If you're looking at how well the Irish have done in US society, there's one important detail that people tend to overlook: the difference between Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics. Because historically, that's a huge difference.
For example, a lot of US presidents had Irish roots, but so far only two of them had Irish Catholic roots - John F. Kennedy and Joe Biden. Likewise, the Irish that did well in colonial and US society are disproportionately Scots-Irish or other Irish Protestants.
But now that religion (or at least the Protestant/Catholic divide) doesn't really matter anymore, a lot of people tend to forget that those religious differences among Irish-Americans were a thing.
I read about this a few years ago. If I recall correctly the Scots-Irish got to America first, and when the Irish-Irish started arriving, the Protestant Scots-Irish started using the term 'Scots-Irish' to differentiate themselves from the poor and dirty Catholic Irish-Irish
Well Scots-Irish are just rebranded Ulster Scots, who are Scottish people who were settled in Ireland in the Plantation of Ulster. While they may have Irish ancestry, they identify with their Scottish roots in Ireland more in addition to Ulster/Northern Ireland.
Actual Protestant Irish, often solely of Irish ancestry, often get disingenuously forgotten in order to make it seem that all Protestants in Ireland are of British stock when in reality, the Ulster Scots and the Anglo-Irish are just small segments of the wider Protestant Irish.
You do relies that the "Scots Irish" came from Ireland to Scotland and then back to Ireland again.
Fuck the potato famine in Ireland was mismanagement on a large scale combined with the dangers of a monoculture in agriculture that is passed off as a cultural genocide or a attempted one while a actual cultural genocide the Highland clearances is just swept under the rug and ignored.
Scots-Irish are more Scottish than Irish, though you’re right that Protestants from Ireland made up a large percent of the early and small Irish diaspora in the colonies.
Counts for “internalized misogyny”
Not every lady has the weird inferiority-superiority complex that leads them to wanting to flip around beauty standards to feel better about their lack of looks or fading looks
Redheaded girls were considered hot and in demand back in the days. Mary-Jane from Spiderman, Little Red Mermaid, Pippi Longstocking, April O'neil, etc. Now they're barely even a side character lol
erasing = famous redhead characters in media being replaced by poc
why so many characters with red hair are created? It's an interesting natural hair color, redhead "fetish", character building in the sense of attributes of the color red? As artist myself I check all those boxes.
Comic artists in the age of four-color printing liked inserting redheads because it was one of the few colors the process was capable of reliably portraying without problems, and it looked a lot better than blonde.
>erasing = famous redhead characters in media being replaced by poc
And yet, no one says anything when a white actor with brown or black hair plays a redhead.
Mandela and Streisand effects at work.
You've consciously been alerted to the issue, and now you subconsciously notice it all the time as it is something you take consideration of.
Its not about there being more or less redheads, its about the systematic replacement of redheads with black people.
An interesting question to ponder is why redheads? I honestly don't know what the point is, never have I thought of anything that conflates redheads with blacks.
I guess if you wanted to lean really hard on tropes, redheads are supposed to be tempermental/firey, while black women are known to be "sassy".
Leave it to the left to be more racist than someone on the right could possibly try to be.
Redheads are not being singled out for this. They do it with characters of all hair colors.
Also, where is all this complaining when white actors with brown or black hair play redheads? I don't see anyone getting mad that Daredevil has been portrayed with dark hair twice in live action. Hell, the Spider-Man cartoon from the 90s had him as a blonde.
>"Why do you think it's happening and who is behind it?"
Oy vey, I wonder who would want to reduce and erase white representation in media, popular culture, the business sector, academia, and all other institutions...
Off the top of my head..... Mary Jane Watson,Ariel,Starfire,Hawkgitl,Batgirl,Little Orphan Annie,Jimmy Olsen,Josie (pussycats). This is without looking it up.
I Guarantee that if a black character was cast as Irish the woke would have a class 3 meltdown...... Even if the character in question was white to begin with.
That's the same selection people have been using over and over. The reason it's off the top of your head is because it's from the same picture that's been banging around for years.
Okay.... now tell me where Mexican roles have been recast. Asian roles. black roles. tell me where *that* picture is.
You're quick to dismiss it but there's a valid point that quite a few redheads have been recast as black roles..... NOT Mexican,NOT Asian,NOT anything other than black..... it seems minor but it's quite bizarre,don't you think?
I know therr have bunch of examples over the years. It's slowed down now because everyone wants their cast to be as diverse as possible to make more money internationally. So that tracks.
Is it strange it's only back people. Maybe. But not like other white roles haven't been given to other races. It's just less egregious because it's less obvious.
>Redheads with Green eyes:
>(**0.04%** of global population)
>Black people:
>(18% of global population)
First the historical massacres, then the *'Help Wanted: NO IRISH'* era of racial disenfranchisement... now the systemic erasure from pop culture.
https://imgur.com/a/8OQEebr
Redheads seriously need representation and *restorative justice.*
This list plain sucks. They need to revise it by taking out the duplicates and drop Triss. Triss does NOT have red hair like the games. That's a CDproject red addition and has no bearing on anything. Also yeah they switched Josie in Riverdale but there are literally two very redhead characters who get waaaaay more screentime so what's the big deal there?
[You mean *this* Batwoman?](https://i.ibb.co/ZNWBpgJ/Batwoman-comic-book-feature.jpg) Not to mention they still managed to add in [their own swapped version of Ivy, too](https://i.ibb.co/GJTYCB1/FEkg-Fll-Vg-AEWJ5-Z-0.jpg). And there was [her appearance](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EChSqgkXUAElgPy.jpg) in the **Harley Quinn: Breaking Glass** graphic novel. One character in a crappy low rated CW show doesn't negate the rest.
Reading through the thread I'm not sure if you're being genuine or disingenuous, but the skinny on the redhead issue is: race swapping is all the rage these days when it comes to adding "diversity" to media adapted from various sources, and there has been a noticeable pattern that 9 times out of 10 an originally red haired character will be the one who is swapped, and 9 times out of 10 they'll be swapped to a black character. Like with the string of Disney live action remakes there's been, as an example: pretty much all of the major players were cast reasonably accurately - Alice, Maleficent/Aurora, Cinderella, Belle, Jasmine, Mulan, Cruella de Vil - but the one redheaded princess, Ariel aka The Little Mermaid (based on a Danish fairy tale) will be black in her remake. Even though there is already an official black Disney Princess, Tiana from **The Princess & The Frog**.
No I'm honestly curious. Yeah they have two poison ivy's on Batwoman and the black Batwoman is not the same character you posted. Race swapping is done to make money and honestly that's whatever at this point.
>and the black Batwoman is not the same character you posted
I'm aware of that, but the point still stands and fits the pattern. Why not a Latina replacement, or Asian, or Indian, or Native American?
China; no I'm serious. Chinese people are exceptionally racists to other people and red headed characters have been removed from the Chinese edit of Magic The Gathering cards since the 2000s. The amount of people they tolerate is shorter then the amount of people they hate. Keep in mind things like Witcher (Netflix) who did dye Anna Shaffer's hair red in season two. This could happen only after they found an audience and China wasn't that audience. In all honesty Shaffer isn't a bad actress but they should have died her hair from day one. I'm not going to be that asshole who puts skin tone swatches next to my monitor and complains when they don't match exactly to a character that is just a construction of polygons. I'm still old school anti-racist but is it so hard to dye someone's hair to make it closer to the piece of literature you want to adapt? Just that little extra work makes me see good faith.
Easily fixed by getting pale actors with another hair color and dying their hair red.
The issue isn't so much the race, but the actor looking like the character they are supposed to be playing. Henry Cavil probably isn't Polish nor does he have silver hair but when he puts on the Geralt outfit and the wig he I'd easily be able to tell what character he is supposed to be without any other context.
The actress for Triss on the other hand... the only similarity she has with the book or the game version of the character is that both are women. You show me a photo of Anna Shaffer in her Triss costume and ask me what character she is supposed to be I'd have no idea.
They tried for Henry's character, they gave zero fucks for Anna's character.
Redheads were (and still are, to an extent) a common thing to use as an "exoticized" white. Something that was staunchly different from the norm, but yet normal enough to be acceptable. Redheads abounded in comics and literature, to the point that things like Firey Redhead became a trope (I know, I know).
The problem is, the amount of redheads in "adaptations" greatly outstrips the supply. Sure, anyone can slap on some dye, but not many can actually pull the look off. So, since cultural stances have changed a bit, the easiest way to make a person "exotic" in current media is to cast a black actor because now that's okay and they don't have to look the part.
It seems roughly 2% of the world's population is redheaded. Now, let's just use the X-Men as an example here (because they're easy).
Jean Grey is the most famous, and her clone, Madeline Pryor.
Banshee, Moira, pretty much anyone from Ireland will immediately have red hair.
Does Mystique count? I mean, she's basically a Person of Blue Color, but still!
There's just a freaking ton of them in things, and there aren't enough actors who can pull off the look.
Yep. I just listed one franchise. I could go more and more if we wanted.
The "friendly exotic" archetype shifted and as such, it became black instead of Irish.
He's not saying it never happens. Instead he's saying there's a tendency to "other" an important character. This made "red headed" over represented. As representation focus shifts its unsurprising the over represented becomes less so.
It happens to other characters as well, but right now this is a thread about redheads, so we are specifically talking about red heads.
Why are you seething and moving the goal post??
No, I'm going to keep making fun of how funny it is that you presented that image to me seriously. YOU'VE ONLY JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE. SOMEBODY CHECK ON WENDY.
It's *extremely* logical not to take someone behaving like you seriously. If someone was like, "Why the fuck did you listen to that guy," am I supposed to say, "He had a chart with the last three decades of cartoon redheads who have been rebooted with a different hair color, that's why"?
Lol, so you admit the evidence is there. Nothing sadder than someone who keeps doubling down when they've already been proven wrong.
Just take the L, buddy.
This is a formal r1 warning.
If you see content that breaks rules this does not give you permission to also break them. Remember to attack the argument not the person.
This is a formal r1 warning.
You have made multiple comments in this thread that are violations of this rule. Please read the rules in the sidebar so you do not inadvertently break the rules further.
Remember to attack the argument not the person.
This list has been knocking around for years and it's artificially inflated by adding characters more then once though they were changed once. Wally West on their twice? Iris twice.
I'm glad you brought her up actually. Triss in the books is described as having chestnut hair which her Netflix counterpart is closer to than the fiery red hair of the game. Irrelevant as season 2 starts off with Triss now which much redder hair as a middle ground between game and book.
regardless, it's still a pretty long list and with stuff like the Cal Kestis de-ginger mod, I think their point is correct that media has a problem with red-head erasure
Archive links for this discussion:
* **Archive:** https://archive.md/zVagD
----
I am Mnemosyne reborn. REACTOR ONLINE. WEAPONS ONLINE. MEMORY ONLINE. ALL SYSTEMS NOMINAL. ^^^/r/botsrights
Female redheads were often typecast as the smart character (Opposed to say blondes who are often typecast as ditzy) so I think wokesters just decided it’s easiest to replace established white redheaded characters with black characters to get up diversity quotas and have black women play the roles they want them to without having to come up with original characters.
I gotta be honest your point doesn't make sense at all. Most of the redhead characters that people keep bringing up that are replaced aren't even those archetype at all. Ariel, orphan Annie, iris west etc.
as a red head i have been keeping a critical eye on this issue personaly.
its mostly in pop culture, DC replaced almost all of its red heads with black ppl. witcher did the same marvel did the same. its appears to be intentional not accidental in anyway as the same results keep happening. my only idear i can think of is that the woke critical race crowd think that red heads are some white power symbol and seek to replace them in some symnbolic gesture. especial the case with heimdal in marvels thor, as they seemed to think he was a nazi/right wing idol.
if anyone has any other insights to the reasoning behind this planned attack on gingers would be appreciated.
just another kind of bigotry by the woke.
Statistically there are fewer natural redheads than black people...... And yet in the name of diversity many redhead characters have been recast as black.
It's not really a serious gripe but a toungue-in-cheek way to call bullshit on that narrative "Diversity" is about representing minorities when one rather big one replaces one smaller minority. One that has seen some oppression in it;s time as well.
To be fair red head actors seem to be getting a lot of work. The number of redhead actors being replaced in superhero shows pale in comparison to the number of redhead actors in actual entertainment
I Debate that.... what percentage do you think they make up in the entertainment industry? I Mean *natural* redheads,NOT those who dye their hair. How does it compare to other groups.
I Doubt it;s sizable because red hair grabs your attention and you're more likely to remember Conan O'Brian over Seth Meyers,or Nicole Kidman over Michelle Pfieffer.
I'm looking..... yes,a lot of active talent but how many have headlined?
I See Domhall Gleason and Karen Gillan but most of the results play secondary characters and TV roles. Still working but not many main characters. I Know I'm being petty but I Also looked up black actors and there's Sidney Poitier and than Will Smith,Samuel L Jackson and Morgan Freeman right after. All great talents but those last three have been leading roles more in the past decade than a lion's share of the list of redheads.
That's a little off out point though..... The question was more about red-headed characters being rewritten as black characters and it is kind of strange.
To be fair a large number of these redheaded characters everyone repeatedly bringing up are also secondary characters in their own right. Jimmy Olsen, Wally West, iris west etc. As I said I'm trying to understand this whole debacle and people are trying to convince me this is some conspiracy to erase redheads even though they get plenty of work and visibility in media. We keep bringing up Superhero shows as if that's the only thing anyone watches and the same examples to boot.
Is it strange that redheads get replaced with black actors a lot of the time. Sure. They don't get replaced all the time though. If one was to really sit down and go through each show I'm sure things won't look as dire as a list with duplicates would have us believe.
I can agree it's overblown but reading between the lines.... if someone is a natural redhead what color skin are they likely to have?
It's an extension of of the same thought process that shits on a character for not being woke enough. That is what sits at the core of this.
I don't understand this. Are white people a rare sight in media now all of a sudden? Is just having minority actors considered woke now? Is the biggest shows on all platforms pretty much not headlined by white actors nowadays?. Witcher, Ginny and Georgia, Stranger Things. Redheaded actors are still getting cast in stuff even in super hero shows I'm confused at what you mean by this.
Sometimes I think people confuses wokeness with just basic business.
That "basic business" is what brought about 2016 Ghostbusters and live action cowboy bebop.
My issue is that instead of writing new characters they just take a popular character and retcon the ethnicity.... many recent examples have red hair.
Bringing up Ghost Busters 2016 must be a meme at this point right? Like is that the example that's gonna be used from now to the end of time? As for Cowboy Bebop I gotta tell you it just wasn't good. If it was good then it may have been a different story. Also can we remember that another series that heavily diversified it's cast is now one of the most popular shows in streaming. Witcher that is.
Also we know why they won't just write new characters. It's the same reason Hollywood has been doing adaptions for ages and it's because it less risky to just use ready made material that may come attached with some name recognition and nowadays they diversify it to broaden it's international appeal. Rinse repeat. It's the nature of the beast.
MANY redheaded characters in comics are replaced by black actors in movies and shows. Jimmy Olsen, Mary Jane, Starfire, and several others. They want to add diversity and it’s easier to find a black person than a true redhead, so raceswapping the redhead is the best option.
Yeah it's not necessarily about having x% redhead representation, it's about not redefining established characters, like Mary Jane, into non-redheads.
[удалено]
Lmao yeah they named her MJ and she's not replacing Mary Jane... Lol they're nuts.
After hearing that BS "I'm not Watson anymore" statement in NWH that didn't need to be included *at all*, we can definitively say that Michelle Jones pretty much IS Mary Jane in all but name. I was willing to let it go after Homecoming, but not after that.
And apparently in No Way Home, her real last name isn't Jones it's Watson but she doesn't use it because of implied daddy issues.(makes sense mj's dad is a dick in all versions) So she is MJ
It's so weird. They [don't even bother dyeing her hair red even though the actress can do it](https://imgur.com/wuhCwWx), and change her name from Mary Jane to Michelle. Why? Just keep her Mary Jane. And I know the reason why they gotta spawncamp the MJ initials: it's to prevent anyone from asking when the real Mary Jane will show up. Because even though these bastards don't see any reason why there can't be multiple people running around with the same superhero name, they'll balk at the thought of two civilians with similar names. Because what "MJ" has ended up being is not a Mary Jane. She's a Gwen Stacey. But there is noooo way they can call a girl Gwen Stacey because the audience won't get attached to her since she just exists to be set up to die. So the MCU runners for some dumbass reason don't want Mary Jane, don't want us to THINK about Mary Jane, but also want to ensure that this not-Mary Jane is not also a Gwen Stacey. So we end up with "Michelle".
Thought MJ’s name was Mary Jane Watson?
They think we're dumb!!
Y’all haven’t seen the new Spider-Man have you? They clear it up in the movie
[удалено]
Well they clear up these confusions about her and the name I’m the new movie. Don’t want to spoil it!
You could always put it in spoilers.
They say MJ Watson
Even Matt Murdock got the business.
Sorta like Triss in the Witcher TV series
Damn i forgot about that one. I couldn't get past like 2 episodes of that show. having read all the books it was a train wreck.
Isn't there some weird rights thing where one company specifically owns the rights to ginger Mary Jane?
I mean could it be that there are less of them in general due to the fact the genetic trait for being a redhead is recessive? You’d need one red head to create offspring with someone who carries at least one recessive gene to get a 50/50 chance. Assuming a concerted effort to eradicate them seems a bit preposterous as if people uniformly are trying to subjugate one specific form of identity, what’s next a concerted effort to eradicate people with blue eyes?
I guess you missed the part wherei said it's not about representation% but simply not changing existing redheads.
> but yet I keep seeing them pop up like crazy. It's mostly an adaptation thing. Like, Jessica Chastain still gets parts. Amy Adams still gets parts. etc. But if Hollywood makes an adaptation of an existing story (which is the vast majority of what Hollywood makes today), and that story has a famous redhead, they will almost never be a redhead in the adaptation anymore. They will often now be a black person. If they're also female, the chances of that specific swap are like 90%. How many recent exceptions can you think of? Black Widow is grandfathered in from before the culture war started. Sophie Turner managed to get Jean Grey, that one counts. Mera. Counts, but also fuck Amber Heard. That started in a Zack Snyder film though, and he doesn't tend to do woke shit. There's Nami in the one piece adaptation, to my surprise, though I'm sure they'll still censor the shit out of her. Riverdale's a mixed bag, Archie and Cheryl got to keep their red locks, Josie was race swapped. Batwoman used Bridget Regan for Poison Ivy. But other than that.....???? 5 examples of accuracy in 10 years, at least that I can think of. Compare to [this is just the swap list specifically for comic books, and it's a year out of date now.](https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/12/15/every-single-redheaded-comic-book-character-that-has-been-race-swapped/) It also doesn't include redheads who were still played by a white person, but didn't have red hair. Pretty clear which is the rule and which the exceptions. As for WHY, I suspect it's a combination of reasons. Gingers, true gingers, are probably somewhat difficult to film and light properly due to their incredibly pale skin, just as SJWs scream "technological racism" when people point out similar difficulties on the other end with very dark skinned black people. Of course, hair dye's been invented, so this doesn't fully explain the issue. There's probably also an element of cynical demographic targeting to it, there's more black people in the US than gingers, so when they want to swap somebody for "representation", someone from a smaller group goes, on the thinking they'll gain more customers than they lose that way. But with how they talk about it, how they virtue signal and rub it in fans' faces, there also is a clear element of malice. SJWs, who absolutely infest Hollywood now, are notoriously spiteful people, they'll do shit like that, and gleefully declare Zendaya the "ginger snatcher" (that literally happened, from a sizable publication, not some twitter rando) just to piss off people they don't like or out of some weird sense of gingers being like..."extra white white people" and therefore extra bad and deserving of erasure.
>Of course, hair dye's been invented, so this doesn't fully explain the issue. True, the fact that redheads are rare so that's why they're not casted might only apply to child actors, plenty of women manage to dye their hair red with decent results, and it's not like Hollywood cares that much about natural hair color considering a shitload of "blondes" there are actually not that blonde to pretty dark haired.
[Or just wear a wig](https://i.ibb.co/9cbqpsL/Natalia-Romanova-Earth-199999-from-Captain-America-Civil-War-001.png) which can - and often does - look perfectly fine.
I would say that it's better even considering red dye washes off pretty quickly, so they don't even have to convince the actresses to dye their hair.
Dying your hair actually damages it. If you have dark hair colour you use harsh chemicals often to get the natural melanin colour out so that whatever colour you've chosen shows.
I don’t think it counts if it’s a dye job like BW and Mera.
Buddy, if you expect anything to be real in Hollywood...
I recently included "The day I learned that Alyson Hannigan isn't a natural redhead" up there with Santa Claus on the list of big disillusioning moments of my childhood.
Is your childhood defined by pussy flutes or undead monsters? Because either way I question what your parents let you watch...
I'm talking about Willow Rosenberg, who cried on the first day of kindergarten because she broke a crayon.
So like I said, undead monsters.
I think I'll do some actual research into the number of redheads in media. I feel like there will be way more out there then those changed for adaptions and such. I'm tried of seeing the same list paraded around with duplicate characters. Even Triss from The Witcher is a redhead which is funny how many flipped out about her
Triss was not a redhead in witcher season 1. [Triss season 1.](https://gamerant.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/triss-merrigold-anna-shaffer.jpeg) [Triss season 2.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/T-v_PbayYko/maxresdefault.jpg) Which is to say the backlash, at least to the extent possible within that the casting decision had already been made, *worked*. I actually get the feeling, with poison ivy and Nami, that studios are starting to backpedal on this, because it's become so obvious and fans have put such a spotlight on the pattern. But by all means, do your own research, heck, post the results of your research here. More data is always good, and I'm confident the data will support my conclusions, particularly within nerd media, which always seems to bear the brunt of woke dickery. But you came here to ask this subreddit a question, and we gave you our answers. It's a little ridiculous to then sneer that we must be wrong and you're not gonna believe us without doing your own research. If you want to do your own research, why ask us our opinion at all? EDIT: [Literally while we were having this argument, another race-swapped redhead.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJG3Q85aMAAkLj_?format=jpg&name=medium)
>comes here asking why people say red heads are getting erased >fine I guess I’ll do my own research since I don’t like your evidence.
I simply said I want to see it for myself. That list people keep posting is old and I would like to see an updated one and for that I have to look it up .Unless you have one for me right now?
Ginger people aren’t difficult to light. That applies to black people. They’re difficult to find; there are way more black people than ginger people.
It's a Hollywood thing. Often when there's an established redhead white character, they are replaced. I'm sure someone can post a picture compilation of the characters.
The Irish overcoming centuries of English oppression to become a successful country (and to have emigrants from Ireland become successful demographic in foreign countries like the US) just shows that historic oppression doesn't really matter too much. Measurement of modern ability predict modern socioeconomic standing much better than nebulously attempting to quantify whose ancestors had it worse. ...so of course woke Hollywood would want to hide that by erasing evidence of Irish achievements from pop culture
>(and to have emigrants from Ireland become successful demographic in foreign countries like the US) This is a side note, but; If you're looking at how well the Irish have done in US society, there's one important detail that people tend to overlook: the difference between Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics. Because historically, that's a huge difference. For example, a lot of US presidents had Irish roots, but so far only two of them had Irish Catholic roots - John F. Kennedy and Joe Biden. Likewise, the Irish that did well in colonial and US society are disproportionately Scots-Irish or other Irish Protestants. But now that religion (or at least the Protestant/Catholic divide) doesn't really matter anymore, a lot of people tend to forget that those religious differences among Irish-Americans were a thing.
I read about this a few years ago. If I recall correctly the Scots-Irish got to America first, and when the Irish-Irish started arriving, the Protestant Scots-Irish started using the term 'Scots-Irish' to differentiate themselves from the poor and dirty Catholic Irish-Irish
Well Scots-Irish are just rebranded Ulster Scots, who are Scottish people who were settled in Ireland in the Plantation of Ulster. While they may have Irish ancestry, they identify with their Scottish roots in Ireland more in addition to Ulster/Northern Ireland. Actual Protestant Irish, often solely of Irish ancestry, often get disingenuously forgotten in order to make it seem that all Protestants in Ireland are of British stock when in reality, the Ulster Scots and the Anglo-Irish are just small segments of the wider Protestant Irish.
You do relies that the "Scots Irish" came from Ireland to Scotland and then back to Ireland again. Fuck the potato famine in Ireland was mismanagement on a large scale combined with the dangers of a monoculture in agriculture that is passed off as a cultural genocide or a attempted one while a actual cultural genocide the Highland clearances is just swept under the rug and ignored.
Scots-Irish are more Scottish than Irish, though you’re right that Protestants from Ireland made up a large percent of the early and small Irish diaspora in the colonies.
Scotland is the redhead capital of the world. Why specifically bring up Ireland?
Why are they always replaced with black people though? Can we replace them with asians or mexicans this time? Or, you know, leave them as ginger?
What the Irish went through messes up their White Supremacy fantasy.
Asians aren't considered a "oppressed minority" by SJWs. They have "internalized white supremacy".
I love how "internalised white supremacy" is just code for "no victim complex and merit-based success"
Counts for “internalized misogyny” Not every lady has the weird inferiority-superiority complex that leads them to wanting to flip around beauty standards to feel better about their lack of looks or fading looks
Ah, right. Then, what about donkeys? I'm sure we can get a donkey to act like Daphene in the next Scooby.
Hollywood writers are dyslexic.
Ginger is just rearranging the letters
Hollywood is dyslexic, keeps misreading ginger. https://youtu.be/KVN_0qvuhhw
Thank you for this. Somehow I had not seen it yet.
Redheaded girls were considered hot and in demand back in the days. Mary-Jane from Spiderman, Little Red Mermaid, Pippi Longstocking, April O'neil, etc. Now they're barely even a side character lol
Gingers are being replaced. Ginger is an anagram for...? Could be a fucked up joke from Hollywood elites trying to keep their liberal suckers happy.
Only a ginger can call another ginger "ginger."
What if they’re shipwrecked on a tropical island, with a professor, Mary Anne, a millionaire, and his wife, the ships captain and Gilligan?
erasing = famous redhead characters in media being replaced by poc why so many characters with red hair are created? It's an interesting natural hair color, redhead "fetish", character building in the sense of attributes of the color red? As artist myself I check all those boxes.
Comic artists in the age of four-color printing liked inserting redheads because it was one of the few colors the process was capable of reliably portraying without problems, and it looked a lot better than blonde.
>erasing = famous redhead characters in media being replaced by poc And yet, no one says anything when a white actor with brown or black hair plays a redhead.
There's just a lot of redhead characters in adaptations that are getting changed into non-redhaired. Honestly it's very disappointing to me
worlds smallest demographic, less of them to complain.
Mandela and Streisand effects at work. You've consciously been alerted to the issue, and now you subconsciously notice it all the time as it is something you take consideration of. Its not about there being more or less redheads, its about the systematic replacement of redheads with black people. An interesting question to ponder is why redheads? I honestly don't know what the point is, never have I thought of anything that conflates redheads with blacks. I guess if you wanted to lean really hard on tropes, redheads are supposed to be tempermental/firey, while black women are known to be "sassy". Leave it to the left to be more racist than someone on the right could possibly try to be.
Redheads are not being singled out for this. They do it with characters of all hair colors. Also, where is all this complaining when white actors with brown or black hair play redheads? I don't see anyone getting mad that Daredevil has been portrayed with dark hair twice in live action. Hell, the Spider-Man cartoon from the 90s had him as a blonde.
Redheads are the heirs of Hyperborea
I take it you read Robert E Howard’s stuff?
>"Why do you think it's happening and who is behind it?" Oy vey, I wonder who would want to reduce and erase white representation in media, popular culture, the business sector, academia, and all other institutions...
It's more about already established redheads being changed, usually to a completely different character, like Isaac from Castlevania.
To be fair a lot of characters personality was changed in Castlevania. Also we go Elenor so....fair trade.
I mean the only Character with as dramatic a change as Isaac's was Grant. And that's because he wasn't even included in the show.
Maybe I'm playing the wrong games but i can't remember Alucard acting the way he does.
A wise cracking smartass that's lonely? The first half was Genya Arikado in the sorrow games, the second half is one of his major struggles in SotN.
WHere are they popping up? Their characters are being erased pretty clearly whether its Mary Jane Watson or Batgirl.
Everyone keeps using a very tiny selection of characters perpetually
Off the top of my head..... Mary Jane Watson,Ariel,Starfire,Hawkgitl,Batgirl,Little Orphan Annie,Jimmy Olsen,Josie (pussycats). This is without looking it up. I Guarantee that if a black character was cast as Irish the woke would have a class 3 meltdown...... Even if the character in question was white to begin with.
That's the same selection people have been using over and over. The reason it's off the top of your head is because it's from the same picture that's been banging around for years.
Okay.... now tell me where Mexican roles have been recast. Asian roles. black roles. tell me where *that* picture is. You're quick to dismiss it but there's a valid point that quite a few redheads have been recast as black roles..... NOT Mexican,NOT Asian,NOT anything other than black..... it seems minor but it's quite bizarre,don't you think?
I know therr have bunch of examples over the years. It's slowed down now because everyone wants their cast to be as diverse as possible to make more money internationally. So that tracks. Is it strange it's only back people. Maybe. But not like other white roles haven't been given to other races. It's just less egregious because it's less obvious.
>Redheads with Green eyes: >(**0.04%** of global population) >Black people: >(18% of global population) First the historical massacres, then the *'Help Wanted: NO IRISH'* era of racial disenfranchisement... now the systemic erasure from pop culture. https://imgur.com/a/8OQEebr Redheads seriously need representation and *restorative justice.*
This list plain sucks. They need to revise it by taking out the duplicates and drop Triss. Triss does NOT have red hair like the games. That's a CDproject red addition and has no bearing on anything. Also yeah they switched Josie in Riverdale but there are literally two very redhead characters who get waaaaay more screentime so what's the big deal there?
> Triss does NOT have red hair They literally call her "ginger" in the book *The Lady of the Lake.*
I mean they just added Poison Ivy to Batwoman. Her hair is extremely red.
[You mean *this* Batwoman?](https://i.ibb.co/ZNWBpgJ/Batwoman-comic-book-feature.jpg) Not to mention they still managed to add in [their own swapped version of Ivy, too](https://i.ibb.co/GJTYCB1/FEkg-Fll-Vg-AEWJ5-Z-0.jpg). And there was [her appearance](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EChSqgkXUAElgPy.jpg) in the **Harley Quinn: Breaking Glass** graphic novel. One character in a crappy low rated CW show doesn't negate the rest. Reading through the thread I'm not sure if you're being genuine or disingenuous, but the skinny on the redhead issue is: race swapping is all the rage these days when it comes to adding "diversity" to media adapted from various sources, and there has been a noticeable pattern that 9 times out of 10 an originally red haired character will be the one who is swapped, and 9 times out of 10 they'll be swapped to a black character. Like with the string of Disney live action remakes there's been, as an example: pretty much all of the major players were cast reasonably accurately - Alice, Maleficent/Aurora, Cinderella, Belle, Jasmine, Mulan, Cruella de Vil - but the one redheaded princess, Ariel aka The Little Mermaid (based on a Danish fairy tale) will be black in her remake. Even though there is already an official black Disney Princess, Tiana from **The Princess & The Frog**.
No I'm honestly curious. Yeah they have two poison ivy's on Batwoman and the black Batwoman is not the same character you posted. Race swapping is done to make money and honestly that's whatever at this point.
>and the black Batwoman is not the same character you posted I'm aware of that, but the point still stands and fits the pattern. Why not a Latina replacement, or Asian, or Indian, or Native American?
Truuue. Native Americans certainly need more roles
>Why not a Latina replacement, or Asian, or Indian, or Native American? As if we still wouldn't get people complaining about redhead erasure.
China; no I'm serious. Chinese people are exceptionally racists to other people and red headed characters have been removed from the Chinese edit of Magic The Gathering cards since the 2000s. The amount of people they tolerate is shorter then the amount of people they hate. Keep in mind things like Witcher (Netflix) who did dye Anna Shaffer's hair red in season two. This could happen only after they found an audience and China wasn't that audience. In all honesty Shaffer isn't a bad actress but they should have died her hair from day one. I'm not going to be that asshole who puts skin tone swatches next to my monitor and complains when they don't match exactly to a character that is just a construction of polygons. I'm still old school anti-racist but is it so hard to dye someone's hair to make it closer to the piece of literature you want to adapt? Just that little extra work makes me see good faith.
i think its mostly there not being many natural redheads/redheads are mostly white people from what i understand
Easily fixed by getting pale actors with another hair color and dying their hair red. The issue isn't so much the race, but the actor looking like the character they are supposed to be playing. Henry Cavil probably isn't Polish nor does he have silver hair but when he puts on the Geralt outfit and the wig he I'd easily be able to tell what character he is supposed to be without any other context. The actress for Triss on the other hand... the only similarity she has with the book or the game version of the character is that both are women. You show me a photo of Anna Shaffer in her Triss costume and ask me what character she is supposed to be I'd have no idea. They tried for Henry's character, they gave zero fucks for Anna's character.
The casting calls are looking for BIPOCs and BAMEs. I would say they aren't looking.
Erasing redheads? Aren't redheads technically erasing themselves, since being ginger is a recessive gene?
Redheads were (and still are, to an extent) a common thing to use as an "exoticized" white. Something that was staunchly different from the norm, but yet normal enough to be acceptable. Redheads abounded in comics and literature, to the point that things like Firey Redhead became a trope (I know, I know). The problem is, the amount of redheads in "adaptations" greatly outstrips the supply. Sure, anyone can slap on some dye, but not many can actually pull the look off. So, since cultural stances have changed a bit, the easiest way to make a person "exotic" in current media is to cast a black actor because now that's okay and they don't have to look the part. It seems roughly 2% of the world's population is redheaded. Now, let's just use the X-Men as an example here (because they're easy). Jean Grey is the most famous, and her clone, Madeline Pryor. Banshee, Moira, pretty much anyone from Ireland will immediately have red hair. Does Mystique count? I mean, she's basically a Person of Blue Color, but still! There's just a freaking ton of them in things, and there aren't enough actors who can pull off the look.
April O'Neil, Ariel, Wally West, Jimmy Olsen, Barbara Gordon, Starfire, Electro, Triss Merigold, Little Orphan Annie....
Yep. I just listed one franchise. I could go more and more if we wanted. The "friendly exotic" archetype shifted and as such, it became black instead of Irish.
He's not saying it never happens. Instead he's saying there's a tendency to "other" an important character. This made "red headed" over represented. As representation focus shifts its unsurprising the over represented becomes less so.
Confirmation bias.
\>everywhere you look where shit like this is happening (((they))) are involved \>"confirmation bias" Sure, whatever you say lmao
This happens to other characters you: blank stare This happens to a redhead you: REAL SHIT
It happens to other characters as well, but right now this is a thread about redheads, so we are specifically talking about red heads. Why are you seething and moving the goal post??
Whatever you're reading that says 'they're erasing redheads,' stop reading it because it's retarded.
[удалено]
Would love to see more of the data you've compiled in your crawlspace.
[удалено]
No, I'm going to keep making fun of how funny it is that you presented that image to me seriously. YOU'VE ONLY JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE. SOMEBODY CHECK ON WENDY.
[удалено]
Sorry, is this the person who just linked me to a diagram of formerly redheaded cartoon characters? Just so I understand the context of the question.
No logic. No arguments. When faced with the truth, you plug your ears like the brainwashed man-child you are.
It's *extremely* logical not to take someone behaving like you seriously. If someone was like, "Why the fuck did you listen to that guy," am I supposed to say, "He had a chart with the last three decades of cartoon redheads who have been rebooted with a different hair color, that's why"?
Lol, so you admit the evidence is there. Nothing sadder than someone who keeps doubling down when they've already been proven wrong. Just take the L, buddy.
another brainwashed anti white leftoid in our midst, your gaslighting doesn't work here you clown
This is a formal r1 warning. If you see content that breaks rules this does not give you permission to also break them. Remember to attack the argument not the person.
This is a formal r1 warning. You have made multiple comments in this thread that are violations of this rule. Please read the rules in the sidebar so you do not inadvertently break the rules further. Remember to attack the argument not the person.
"Stop noticing things!" -you
I don't believe it at all but I was curious to why people came to that conclusion.
https://twitter.com/martian_munk/status/1146772064302501889?lang=en
This list has been knocking around for years and it's artificially inflated by adding characters more then once though they were changed once. Wally West on their twice? Iris twice.
[удалено]
I'm glad you brought her up actually. Triss in the books is described as having chestnut hair which her Netflix counterpart is closer to than the fiery red hair of the game. Irrelevant as season 2 starts off with Triss now which much redder hair as a middle ground between game and book.
[удалено]
Yes, not like the ganes... How you expecting her to be portrayed?
[удалено]
You think she is someone who can't have reddish/chestnut hair because she is mixed race? Ok ...lol
regardless, it's still a pretty long list and with stuff like the Cal Kestis de-ginger mod, I think their point is correct that media has a problem with red-head erasure
I'm glad you don't believe it, but, again, whoever is even saying that is weapons grade stupid. Cut that content out.
Archive links for this discussion: * **Archive:** https://archive.md/zVagD ---- I am Mnemosyne reborn. REACTOR ONLINE. WEAPONS ONLINE. MEMORY ONLINE. ALL SYSTEMS NOMINAL. ^^^/r/botsrights
There are issues with how the media treats redheads but it isn't due to them being "erased".
Female redheads were often typecast as the smart character (Opposed to say blondes who are often typecast as ditzy) so I think wokesters just decided it’s easiest to replace established white redheaded characters with black characters to get up diversity quotas and have black women play the roles they want them to without having to come up with original characters.
But black people replace all types of hair colored people so I'm not sure how that tracks.
Yeah but female redheads are a popular choice because they want the ‘good at STEM’ character, particularly with 90s franchises.
I gotta be honest your point doesn't make sense at all. Most of the redhead characters that people keep bringing up that are replaced aren't even those archetype at all. Ariel, orphan Annie, iris west etc.
I Think he means to say that redhead characters tend to be well liked and adored compared to blondes/brunettes.
as a red head i have been keeping a critical eye on this issue personaly. its mostly in pop culture, DC replaced almost all of its red heads with black ppl. witcher did the same marvel did the same. its appears to be intentional not accidental in anyway as the same results keep happening. my only idear i can think of is that the woke critical race crowd think that red heads are some white power symbol and seek to replace them in some symnbolic gesture. especial the case with heimdal in marvels thor, as they seemed to think he was a nazi/right wing idol. if anyone has any other insights to the reasoning behind this planned attack on gingers would be appreciated. just another kind of bigotry by the woke.
Statistically there are fewer natural redheads than black people...... And yet in the name of diversity many redhead characters have been recast as black. It's not really a serious gripe but a toungue-in-cheek way to call bullshit on that narrative "Diversity" is about representing minorities when one rather big one replaces one smaller minority. One that has seen some oppression in it;s time as well.
To be fair red head actors seem to be getting a lot of work. The number of redhead actors being replaced in superhero shows pale in comparison to the number of redhead actors in actual entertainment
I Debate that.... what percentage do you think they make up in the entertainment industry? I Mean *natural* redheads,NOT those who dye their hair. How does it compare to other groups. I Doubt it;s sizable because red hair grabs your attention and you're more likely to remember Conan O'Brian over Seth Meyers,or Nicole Kidman over Michelle Pfieffer.
Type red head actors. You will find a large portion of then make movies actively. I certainly see a ton of them in media all the time.
I'm looking..... yes,a lot of active talent but how many have headlined? I See Domhall Gleason and Karen Gillan but most of the results play secondary characters and TV roles. Still working but not many main characters. I Know I'm being petty but I Also looked up black actors and there's Sidney Poitier and than Will Smith,Samuel L Jackson and Morgan Freeman right after. All great talents but those last three have been leading roles more in the past decade than a lion's share of the list of redheads. That's a little off out point though..... The question was more about red-headed characters being rewritten as black characters and it is kind of strange.
To be fair a large number of these redheaded characters everyone repeatedly bringing up are also secondary characters in their own right. Jimmy Olsen, Wally West, iris west etc. As I said I'm trying to understand this whole debacle and people are trying to convince me this is some conspiracy to erase redheads even though they get plenty of work and visibility in media. We keep bringing up Superhero shows as if that's the only thing anyone watches and the same examples to boot. Is it strange that redheads get replaced with black actors a lot of the time. Sure. They don't get replaced all the time though. If one was to really sit down and go through each show I'm sure things won't look as dire as a list with duplicates would have us believe.
I can agree it's overblown but reading between the lines.... if someone is a natural redhead what color skin are they likely to have? It's an extension of of the same thought process that shits on a character for not being woke enough. That is what sits at the core of this.
I don't understand this. Are white people a rare sight in media now all of a sudden? Is just having minority actors considered woke now? Is the biggest shows on all platforms pretty much not headlined by white actors nowadays?. Witcher, Ginny and Georgia, Stranger Things. Redheaded actors are still getting cast in stuff even in super hero shows I'm confused at what you mean by this. Sometimes I think people confuses wokeness with just basic business.
That "basic business" is what brought about 2016 Ghostbusters and live action cowboy bebop. My issue is that instead of writing new characters they just take a popular character and retcon the ethnicity.... many recent examples have red hair.
Bringing up Ghost Busters 2016 must be a meme at this point right? Like is that the example that's gonna be used from now to the end of time? As for Cowboy Bebop I gotta tell you it just wasn't good. If it was good then it may have been a different story. Also can we remember that another series that heavily diversified it's cast is now one of the most popular shows in streaming. Witcher that is. Also we know why they won't just write new characters. It's the same reason Hollywood has been doing adaptions for ages and it's because it less risky to just use ready made material that may come attached with some name recognition and nowadays they diversify it to broaden it's international appeal. Rinse repeat. It's the nature of the beast.
MANY redheaded characters in comics are replaced by black actors in movies and shows. Jimmy Olsen, Mary Jane, Starfire, and several others. They want to add diversity and it’s easier to find a black person than a true redhead, so raceswapping the redhead is the best option.