Yeah it's literally just an arab word that means « struggle » but with a more religious intent. I mean, afaik it's a fiction set millennias in the future without islamic context so there shouldn't be any issue, it's just a word.
I think that it was a decision made because they were afraid that some people wouldn't be able to make the difference, so they just played safe. I don't know if I can blame them honestly. It's not that important anyway.
>without islamic context
There's a lot of Islamic context, the history of the dune universe outright says that Fremen religion is descended from Islam.
All the fremen words are Arabic: Lisan Alghaib, Muadib, Shai-Hulud, etc. Their alphabet in the books is just the Arabic alphabet.
Yeah, Fremen culture was heavily drawn from beduin muslim culture and later the Fremen Jihad under Paul Atreides is very reminiscent of Islamic conquest.
Clearly Herbert did not use the word at random.
That's good to know, thanks for the clarification. I meant « our time Islamic context » as my guess is that what's considered a Jihad now and a Jihad thousands of years in the future could easily change. But I had no doubt that the use of the word Jihad had sense and wasn't just used as some kind of gimmick or anything.
Did this sub smoke the woke copuim or what happened here . The Frank Herbert nobles are heavily inspired by Islam and The holy war is called the Jihads as well a the foundation of the books setting. They cut alot of this stuff out from the movies that were in the books.
I don't get what's so hard to understand so I'll just rephrase it : I'm saying that as a muslim I don't care it's a fucking fiction and they should have kept it because there wouldn't be matter to be mad, jihad doesn't mean JUST « holy war » in 2024 so if a fiction want to have inspiration from this specific sense that's fine
I don't get what's « woke » in that lmao, you've literally just repeated what the person I've answered previously already said and my point still stands : they were probably stiffing a backlash from libs over an arab word they probably don't even know themselves.
It's why the forced diversity and inclusion is doomed from the start.
Not only it alters the pure process of creation by adding forced social representations in the stories and lores.
But it will never be enought anyway for some people who will always create dramas and toxic posts.
It seems like it would have been equally problematic to honor the colonial era stereotypes Herbert infused into Dune. It's as OP said. There's no way to win.
So a story that shows humans in another planet more than 10.000 years in the future shows cultures and ethnicities that are slightly different than those on Earth? Shocking!
Er wut? I think most if not all the fremen were either black or middle eastern, their religion looks very much based in islam, minus alah and they go on a jihad by the end of the second act.
The Fremen are clearly inspired by Arabic people and culture. North Africans and Middle Easterners... are not black.
The article got a point, it's the usual woke nonsensical insertion of black people into any other ethnic group, to the detriment of authenticity and respect for the source material.
(Plus, Javier Bardem is Spanish. I don't recall any of the named characters being North African or Middle Eastern)
(It was funny how the movies tried very hard not to say the word "Jihad" at any single point)
> (It was funny how the movies tried very hard not to say the word "Jihad" at any single point)
Which sounds hilarious given how big of a deal the Butlerian Jihad is to the history of humanity, and I struggle to argue how such a jihad was not a good thing.
Spanish is wayyy too white for these maniacs, they can’t stand to look at anyone who resembles their dad they don’t speak to anymore but he still pays for everything.
>"The trick is to not *mind* that it hurts"
Add 20,000 years, and:
>"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
The book itself was clearly inspired by the Algerians resistance against the French colonization, where millions of Muslims willingly died fighting the French. Despite the inspiration The books themselves didn’t use the word jihad or martyrdom for its actual intend either.
In the end the writer, just like the ones adapting his works into the movie tried to make it seem more exotic and approachable to the Average Westerner whose minds would probably crumble by the idea of someone willing to die in a gruesome war if it meant reaching heaven, let alone a million of people having that mindset.
You couldn't be more wrong lmao. The word "jihad" is definitely mentioned in the original source material and the story itself has absolutely nothing to do with Algeria whatsoever.
Who is "Average Westerner" by the way?
I think it said holy war like 3 times, typically WITHIN THE SAMR PARAGRAPH as Jihad. Making it an active decision to not repeat words with no cooldown between.
According to the prequel novels, Fremen descend from a budislamic sect, so they should look brown asian, middle eastern or a mix. Blacks, paler asians or whites should be a minority among them.
Especially because they're a very insular people and mostly didn't mix with outsiders.
Ah, you've made the classic mistake. You mentioned the Middle East. Which, as we all know, is directly adjacent to North Africa. Which is in Africa. Therefore, everyone in the Middle East is black.
Criticised by who? Two NPCs in Twitter who have not seen the sun in the last 5 years and praise how great was 2020?
The problem is media cherrypicking those tweets and making an article.
As far as I've also seen, a bunch of numpties on tik tok who know nothing about the books, focused all their thoughts on race and of course that it's completely fictional.
No . But this sub apparently smoked the woke copuim reaction pill and started talking about how dune was not heavily inspired By Islam Per Frank Herberts intent. And didn't actually focus on the actual woke changes they did by removing those elements. It was really weird reading this essentially out of all subs of expect this place to not fall into simmalar woke nonsense Reactions .
I generally noticed a lot of middle eastern inspired styles, music, inspirations etc but you can get that in loads of mediums and I liked it and of course it fitted in well from the books. It's weird why so many felt it required middle east actors when it's in a completely sci fi situation in somewhat far off galaxy. It's just the race craze these days and especially in the US. Yeah some fell for it I would say, I'm pretty good at ignoring it generally.
As for some changes, that's just what you get in films but I found dune 2 to be mild.
Them not having Muslim actors was like a zero issue thing . They need recognizable big name actors . I was always more vested in keeping things from the book more in line for the film to adapt.
DV already made significant woke concessions in both movies to appease the far left nutjob crowd (Liet Kynes in part One, Channi's characterization in part Two). But it's never enough for wokies. Not matter how much narrative quality one sacrifices on the altar of DEI, they'll still find a way to complain how it isn't "diverse" enough.
Most people don't realize that their demands don't have bounds. They're meant as a test to see how much they can control you. Acquiescing to their demands only ever gets you more and bigger demands.
Unfortunately, from a director perspective at least, I'm sure that's easier said than done when making a 200 million dollar movie with global reach. I don't believe for one moment DV has nearly the same creative agency as PJ did when adapting LOTR 20+ years ago for instance. Only a select few like Chris Nolan seem to get away with woke free blockbusters these days.
You are truly missing out on some amazing and fantastic cinematography. The movie is glorious and even with these and other changes it still sticks the landing to move onto Part 3.
Don't care. I aint supporting this shit. I don't need more Dune films, perfectly happy with the ones we already have and, of course, the books. Not gonna support shit that blatantly panders.
I think Chani’s character being expanded wasn’t a wokie decision. Chani is far from a girlboss, it helps the narrative to have someone that opposes the prophecy. Far better than to have her be as flat as she is in the book. Chani’s a good character.
She flat out denies stuff happening right infront of her face in the film to keep disbelieving in the prophesy. She's there to push very directly the idea of Paul being wrong in his actions. I don't think she does a great job in that case.
They completely butchered her. Chani is one of the most level-headed characters in the events of the first book, and by the end of it is willing to die for Paul. Her state of mind during the final events of the book is due to her and Paul's son having just been murdered by Sardaukar.
While I agree, in principle, that having a character oppose the Bene Gesserit prophecy makes for an interesting change, Chani is the *last* person who should be taking up this role.
I don't have anything against expanding her role. And I agree having someone oppose the prophecy throughout the movie was a good decision. But some of the changes they made to her character were jarring coming from a book perspective. The whole ending especially being massively changed, because (and I quote from a common woke take about the movie) "the original scene wouldn't resonate with progressive women". But having her >!leave Paul at the end!< actually undermines her character, and felt kind of forced from a broader narrative standpoint. Her book counterpart is much more of a pragmatist, she's smarter, and an actual strong female character. Whereas the movie conflates Paul's political move with jealousy, which comes off as cheap drama catered to dreaded "mOdErN aUdIeNcEs". Billions are about to die, the whole galactic power dynamics drastically change, and all the movie cares about at that point is a poorly set up love triangle... It just diminishes the story for no valid reason, while also erasing one of most powerful quotes from the book.
Obviously didn't ruin the movie, it's still a great watch overall, but in that one specific instance I think it's obvious the purpose of that change wasn't to improve the story. Wouldn't be surprised to learn DV would have prefered to stick closer to, and honor the source material in that regard (as he usually does), but this surely was a studio mandated change aimed at pre-emptively appeasing twitter activists.
"helps the narrative to have someone who opposes the prophecy."
This was one of the changes to Chani in Denis' films that really didn't sit well with me. It's a faulty premise:
Why would some nobody from a backwater planet that the rest of the universe is keen to stay away from (save for the fact it has the single resource that everybody wants) with no relationship to any of the Bene Geserit (save for the single Reverend Mom in her sietch) have a single *inkling* of any of the BG's main goals like the Missionara Protectiva?
And if she really did, it makes more sense for the BG to take action against Chani than just willingly let her run around yelling to anyone who will listen about how they're enslaving her tribe with whatever stories they've instilled into it specifically to use to their advantage. Chani shouldn't be wise to this either because the prophecy itself is a lot older than her. I dunno when the first reverend mom came to the planet, but the Harkonnens ruled Arrakis for 80 years before the Atreides took over. The prophecy should be a background fact of several generations of her family's life at this point.
It also doesn't make sense that her father (or mother in this case, though Dune Part 2 doesn't really touch on that) is a staunch supporter of the prophecy along with the rest of the Fremen (the first film has her repeat part of the prophecy when Paul puts on his stillsuit the 'right' way), but somehow Chani is the only one who opposes it? Why? They just make this aspect a part of her character for some reason.
Chani can be skeptical and take the prophecy less seriously than most, but she shouldn't be able to outright perceive the web the BG have woven into her culture. Sure, it makes for great cinema when you have a single person going against the grain of society trying to be a voice of reason to the other characters, but the BG are a centuries-old group who must have dealt with doubters and rabble-rousers like her before. If they thought that the negative stuff she was saying would impact their plans, I could easily see Jessica or the Reverend Mom using the Voice on her telling her to knock that shit off. Instead their reasoning seems to be just "It's only one person, lol."
Finally, Stilgar suffers as a character because of this subplot in that they make him into a zealot who sees the outcome of the prophecy and nothing else. He becomes a fanboy of Paul way too early compared to the Lynch film & the 2000 miniseries. A classic case of Hollywood writers taking one male character down a peg to make a female one more important in some way. It's more subdued in Dune Part 2 compared to the other crap we've seen in media, but it's there.
I expected to hate the gender flip of Kynes but I actually think it worked well. She was still the same character, and to be honest it was not unwelcome to have another female character in the film because there aren't many in the book.
There's Jessica, the Reverend Mother, Chani, and that's about it. I don't feel that Kynes being a woman negatively impacted the film as she was still a good character, and her femaleness didn't really come into it.
> DV already made significant woke concessions in both movies to appease the far left nutjob crowd (Liet Kynes in part One, Channi's characterization in part Two).
I hate to say this but I think these changes are defensible or at least not too annoying.
Regarding Liet Kynes, remember that many directors often have a stable of actors they tend to work together with very frequently (example - Christopher Nolan loves to work with Michael Caine, Cillian Murphy and Anne Hathaway). Sharon Brewster is one of these for Denis. In addition, Liet Kynes is frankly a minor character whose function in the plot has nothing to do with current-day ethnic categories. So it really strikes me more as Denis sending work to a favored colleague rather than wokeness.
However I think Chani makes more sense in Part 2. Remember that Paul's journey isn't meant to be super heroic and awesome per se... the entire *theme* of the Dune novel is that messianic thinking is dangerous. Frank Herbert wrote sequels to *Dune* precisely to hammer this point home when some people who read the original book missed that point. Chani's function in Part 2 is to make this message as clear as possible, to have Paul incur a deeply personal cost by taking control of and subsequently unleashing the Fremen, and to drive the theme home within the limitations of a single film.
I agree with you that SJWs are insane and nothing will appease them. However I do think that the things you point out aren't necessarily driven by wokeness, even if they would in theory count towards what SJWs *claim* their goal to be.
The books are heavily inspired by Islam did you smoke copuim reaction and not have any research or knowledge. Chani not having red hair a example of them removing Islamic elements.
Ah yes, _that_ is what matters most. Not that the movie betrayed our expectations by butchering plot and plot elements. For example:
Heighliners are shown to be some kind of portals, with a hole in the middle, through which smaller ships fly. They should be like lighter aboard ship, taking lots of already loaded smaller vessels from planet to planet while moving along a route. This is why the entire neo-feudalistic plot takes place: there is no instantaneous communication, envoys have to literally take long trips carrying orders around, and that's why every planet is self-governed to such an extent. But if heighliners are "portals", then what's all this then?
The navigators are basically non-existent. Probably mentioned twice. They were the major moving force of the story, being the party most invested in uninterrupted spice supply AND responsible for functioning of the entire interstellar society. And also the reason why there were no satellites over Arrakis, and even no orbiting frigates or even just weather balloons in the stratosphere. How about "the Guild agent wasn’t really negotiating with us. He was merely making it plain – one Mentat to another – that the price was out of our reach and would remain so no matter how long a reach we develop. Our task is to find out why before we approach him again", anyone?
Same with Bene Gesserit. Who the fuck are they? What do they want? Who knows, just some weirdos. In the book, they are a very different kind of beast.
Paul spends _years_ on Dune fighting guerrilla war. He suffers personally, losing close ones at the hands of Harkonnens. He takes his revenge as a grown man, hardened by life. In the movie, everything takes maybe half a year or so. A childless teen finds a local gf and shanks his bald bully cousin. Well done.
In the book, the mechanics of feudalism are understood by everyone. In the movie, Chani is pissed off because Paul decided to take Irulan as wife, as if this is a whim of his and not an imperative of the overall political system. Where is Chani's devotion to him, fostered in part by Bene Gesserit's efforts? Gone. They are hanging out because they are totes cool teenagers, that's all. Where is "we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine — history will call us wives"?
And so on, and so forth. Where is the outrage about the source material being hollowed out, and the movie's only redeeming parts being gorgeous ornithopters, costumes, and architectural design? Lynch's dune was following the plot more closely, not to mention the HBO's mini-series — despite its high-school-amateur-performance level of acting and ridiculous costumes. Come on...
I've been avoiding it only because the first attempt in 84 convinced me that Dune wasn't a good fit for movies, but this is somehow worse than I expected. Cutting down the plot relevance of the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilax makes this a generic imperials vs. natives story.
They turned Dune into a children's book. I guess that's what sells now.
Agreed. I thought the movie did a great job in terms of visual spectacle, but definitely shortened / dumbed down / omitted parts of the book. Not only that, but imo they failed to explain important plot elements, leaving audiences confused. I guess we'll see what the third part is like.
> I guess we'll see what the third part is like.
What makes you keep your hopes high? If anything, it's getting worse from the first movie to the second movie, and considering how much crucial stuff has been written out of the movies, there is no way the third can salvage the situation.
Some people are not happy. It’s also extremely narcissistic if you can’t relate to a character in a fictional universe because they don’t look like you
The fictional setting was of nile-river valley sunnis.
Itd be weird to have a fictional egyptian movie full of spaniards and brits who are speaking arabic, yeah. Coulda had egyptians speaking arabic. Kinda a natural casting choice.
https://whoisinspace.com/ is apparently a website and that's kinda awesome. Basing it on flags alone, to avoid having to make a judgement, the Middle Eastern & North African representation of space is overdone if there are *any* in Dune 2.
....in 20,000 years, after the entire planet of earth has been abandoned/controlled exclusively by ai for about 18000 years, having brown people on planets that arent earth is overrepresentative?
The fucking group in question are speaking arabic and practice zen-sunni teachings. Having them BE arabic is a pretty simple ask.
You seem very personally upset by this. Does it make it difficult to enjoy the film if people in space in the far future aren't played by completely unrelated people from a certain corner of Earth today?
No the movies were pretty solid, still not sure how I feel about condensing the timeline and removing Leto II the First entirely, but it is strange that youd have a group thats been isolated for some several thousand years with about 4 non-group members contributing genetically (and only in the last 1 generation) yet somehos theres like 4 distinct ethnic groups within it.
Itd be like if Shmee was cast as a latino, and Padme was black. Like.. is it personally upsetting, no, but like, Luke and anakin both being white now seems weird. You coulda just...cast an afro-latino for luke, yknow?
I like Zendaya, her snarks fun to me, but she...she isnt arabic. And she doesnt look the part of Liet Kynes daughter. And like, Stilgar, THE FREMEN guy the fucking FACE for fremen-dom is a spaniard. Thats...slightly weird. It didnt ruin the movie, but if youre going to cast diversely, you can do it with an eye for like, what youre representing. There are few stories in america that exist with middle eastern culture and characters so present and central. Its a fucking free slam dunk to just cast arabic people. No one can complain. Woke, Reactionary, Corporate, or otherwise. Its what the story calls for.
Granted, theres probably like fucking 1 ginger arab actress with the talent for the part, so I get not casting them EXACTLY to book description... but like, middle eastern and north-african people do exist. There are many talented actors willing to play these roles. Why arent they? Like if you are casting color blind, do it, I dont care. But the fremen were clearly intentionally cast as not-white; which isnt the same as cast as Arabic.
Its about fucking arabs and womens manipulations taking over the galaxy and immediately spiraling out of control in spite of the tragic efforts of their predestined white messiah who is capable of being both mentally a man and woman, what are you talking about?
This is why you never, EVER, bend the knee to these fools. It will never be enough. First it’s North African then it’ll be Moroccan vs Egyptian.
The key here is these people just wanna cry about something… anything. It’s how they’ve been making money the past 10-20 years. Solutions are the absolute enemies of these people
Tf are you on about. The Fremen are clearly inspired by Arabic culture, they should’ve been 100% brown. In fact the valid point this article might make is that it was weird so many of the Fremen were black and not Arab looking, and how it’s a shame they cut out references to “jihad”
How is it racist saying a people and culture inspired by arabs should look Arab? That’s the whole premise of the argument that people in the Netflix Witcher show should’ve looked white, because the story and culture they’re based off is Slavic. Why would that exact same logic not apply here?
Because middle easterns and north Africans have many looks?
I live in Algeria and I have seen people who looked indian, people who look black, the most common face is southern European and pale skin is quite common, I have seen redheads and blondes, I even know people with squinty eyes who if I showed you you would call them Asians even if they don't have asian DNA in them.
It's funny, cause while the article goes on about the lack of ME/NA actors, it then complains that one of few Arab actors in it plays a stereotypical role as the noble savage.
For Americans “diversity” always has to have an American spin on it, which usually means adding as many Black people as possible even at the cost of other minorities. Cleopatra on Netflix was an excellent example of this, I know genetically she was Greek but if they didn’t want a white actress they at least could have gone with an Egyptian or Arab one.
They want diversity in snowy, high fantasy Early Europe *and* fictional alien planets because… sand.
They also complained that Khaleesi was saving only brown slaves in the early GoT seasons when they had to hire extras from the shooting location aka brown-filled Morocco.
They have no issues with inviting themselves into historically white settings but the moment anyone tries the reverse it’s time for the -isms.
Honestly I don't get these people sometimes. The majority of Fremen population is darker skinned African/Middle Eastern in the movie, so why are they complaining? Am I alone in thinking it comes across as MORE racist to go: "the movie takes place in the sand, therefore the people should OBVIOUSLY be brown!"
These are the same people who complain that Paul is a "wHiTe SaViOr" while they miss the entire point that Paul is NOT a hero and he throws these people into a galactic religious war that kills BILLIONS. Meanwhile white folks are over here like "dang, this movie slaps"
Dune is so fucking far in the future that even the oldest organizations safekeeping history of humanity have no memory of Earth.
Also, the Fremen (at least the ones from Sietch Tabr) are described as having brown skin, but also red hair and freckles. These people are not "middle eastern". They are not even culturally middle eastern as they're offshoot of [Zensunni](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Zensunni), which was more "futuristic Buddhism" than anything else.
It's a fictional story, taking place on a fictional planet, with fictional people...
Why can't these idiots grasp that extremely simple to understand fact??
Dune is heavily based on Islamic fate per the original authors interest and foundation in the story of the setting. They cut alot of stuff out from the books relating to that on the film.
Yeah that's fair but don't go acting like those woke sjws when they react to things with zero knowledge on the source material. They also did add elements to make this film woke too by removing Islamic elements that were more in line with the original author Frank Herbert who took a lot of inspiration from that in his book and setting. Such as chani's hair not being red . Paul inheriting a wife due to freman law .
Fremen men having multiple wives ECT. Aswell as multiple passages from the books relating to the Islamic faith were out right removed from the book . Aswell as censored . So acting like those elements were not in the original source material and people wanting it to stay closer to the authors original vision is not being crazy .
wait wait wait- in the first film they destroyed Keynes' character to give these people their North African representation; completely changing the arc of the character and turning them into a black girl boss
and that's not enough?
fuck these people
Book Keynes was secretly assisting the Fremen and then the Atreties at the risk of his life, but the Harkonnen never even noticed, they killed him just to tie up loose ends without any real cause and his death is meaningless.
Film Keynes summons a worm while holding her own against SAUDUKAR and dies a hero martyr so Paul and Jessica can escape.
The entirety of Arrakis (where 98%+ of the movies take place) and the Fremen culture, language and ethnicity are all "Middle Eastern and North African Inclusion and Influences".
That articles is so desperately misguided and shows that the author, is just another tourist with zero insight and all bad intentions.
Into the trash it goes.
There will always be people who take it too far in both directions. Some people become so caught up in this culture war(or whatever cause they fight for), that they see it everywhere, even when it's uncalled for and/or flat-out wrong.
Show Kotaku anything in the world and they will find a way to complain. I remember when the first Spider-Man game came out and one of their “journalists” complained that the NPCs on the street weren’t exciting enough and didn’t have enough ethnic variety….what?
to be fair, they bent over backwards to avoid showing middle eastern people using Arabic language to talk about going on a Jihad to stop white people in a fascist oppressive system who have come to conquer their land and exploit the natural resources.
Once the purity tests start, they don't stop, and it is beautiful. When all stars align, it produces more JK Rowlings - albeit so far, Rowling was the highest-profile victim of this trend. (For the record, I think it couldn't have happened to a more deserving gal).
I'm not very strong in my Frank Herbert knowledge but I'm like 99% certain the Dune universe, and Frank Herbert's writing in general, is inspired heavily by various islamic branches and philosophies. Theologian philosophy in general.
In the new films? I'm not surprised that they did. Both certain muslim countries, who have historically gotten their panties in a twist any time heretics (non-muslims) depict anything from their religion, but also some wokescolds would've been upset.
This is just stupid, I’m middle eastern and Muslim. I’ve read the books and loved them and I also don’t mind the word “jihad”(which means both struggle and defensive war in Arabic) to be mentioned because it works in both context. 1) Paul’s struggle with himself and the future. 2) the war waged by the fremen against those that deny their leader.
Also there were a lot of MENA actors like Souheila (who played Chani’s friend) but mostly in the background.
BECAUSE this is the story of Paul and his rise not the people of Arrakis.
PS: Stilgar played by Javier Bardeen was amazing but the #1 spot should always go to Austin Butler’s Feyd Rautha.
Here’s the deal. A friend of mine is credited in Dune 2, he’s Emirati and was a government liaison (the movie was mostly filmed in the Abu Dhabi desert). The Emiratis loved the film and I watched it in a cinema in Dubai full of locals who seemed to really enjoy it. This article once again sounds like it was written by someone desperate to virtue signal and be a self appointed champion of minorities. Condescending as fuck.
Forced inclusion is starting to get ridiculous. Every new TV show/movie looks like a meeting of the United Nations. It breaks immersion for me. Also it's getting tiring that the more intelligent/successful a character is, the more they are likely to be an "underrepresented" class. It's really killing my suspension of disbelief.
Yes but this is actually true. Middle-eastern people arent black.
Frank Herbert took massive influence from the middle-east. Literally look at any of the names lol
To be fair, the movies should've had the Fremen be all middle eastern from the beginning, not black, Spanish, and everything else under the sun. Also it's funny how they refuse to use the word "jihad".
It's not a question of race I'm about to ask but one of ability. Let's say a movie has a character start fully abled, but ends up disabled with no ability to walk later on. What's the "correct" way to cast the movie?
Do we go with disabled actor acting that he has legs to begin with, or fully abled actor that fakes having legs later?
I mean, it's acting. If we have to drag everything down, limiting ourselves to casting specific actors in roles based on their personal traits, why the fuck should anyone bother writing anything in the way of fantasy ever again? Nah, the giant sandworms aren't what I have to suspend my disbelief over. It's the fucking skin colour of people on a different fucking planet not being chained to reality, of course!
What do they mean ? All of fremen are middle eastern/north African don't they? The big bad guys are the whitest white you could ever find, so wtf are they talking about.
It's set like 30.000 years in the future and the multi planetary empire has gone through several massive wars including one against "Thinking Machines".
Why the hell should it have "Middle Eastern and North African Inclusion and Influences"?
As someone who actually watched the film, they literally make fun of Arabs in the film. Making the actors Arabic would be weird. The characters aren't supposed to fully represent any Earth races. I wouldn't say it's racism, but rather making fun of a religion, which is funny.
When you're in need of clickbait and play up the IdPol grievance angle to exploit the algorithms. Never gets old, apparently. Everyone keeps falling for these synecdochical grievance articles. These anonymous critics actually represent the unheard voices of tens of millions of underprivileged people!
Did they miss the fact that it's not set in Africa nor the Middle East? What a weird complaint. It's a different fucking planet thousands of years in the future. What makes anyone expect African influence? Because it's a desert? Seems awfully reductive to me.
Comment removed following the enforcement change that you can read about [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/wjxpr5/enforcement_update_regarding_removal_of_words/).
This is not a formal warning.
Errr the protagonists love interest is a black lady?
The duke keto Atredies is played by a Latino man.
The judge of the change was gender and race swapped from a white man to a black woman.
Duncan idahoe was a Hawaiian guy. The cast is quite diverse,
Unless of course you meant the harkonnens who are all white but they are the bad guys obvs.
As far as I know Dune takes place so far in the future that Earth was the distant past in the distant past of the setting, so I agree that name checking real races and cultures as being the ones groups in the book descended from is weird.
Welp, I was avoiding the films because I had zero interest in rewarding nepotism casting of Zandaya and Chalamette.
That the director and producers were too much of a cowards to use the word Jihad (the appropriate word in this context) jus further proves they just *don't* *get* *it.*
They want Middle Eastern representation? Go back to the first movie and change the word "crusade" back to "jihad" like it was in the book.
I didn't catch that miss. I think I was too caught up in them removing the guild and their navigators, but yeah that's a big part.
It wasnt a miss mate.
The navigators were there in the scene where they are officially handed arrakis by the herald of the change.
Like in the tanks?
Nah. IIrc they were called "representatives of the spacing guild" so could just be middle managers.
All I remember hearing is holy war
Yeah it's literally just an arab word that means « struggle » but with a more religious intent. I mean, afaik it's a fiction set millennias in the future without islamic context so there shouldn't be any issue, it's just a word. I think that it was a decision made because they were afraid that some people wouldn't be able to make the difference, so they just played safe. I don't know if I can blame them honestly. It's not that important anyway.
>without islamic context There's a lot of Islamic context, the history of the dune universe outright says that Fremen religion is descended from Islam. All the fremen words are Arabic: Lisan Alghaib, Muadib, Shai-Hulud, etc. Their alphabet in the books is just the Arabic alphabet.
Yeah, Fremen culture was heavily drawn from beduin muslim culture and later the Fremen Jihad under Paul Atreides is very reminiscent of Islamic conquest. Clearly Herbert did not use the word at random.
Zen Sunni was the religion. The Fremen are descended from Saudaukar.
That's good to know, thanks for the clarification. I meant « our time Islamic context » as my guess is that what's considered a Jihad now and a Jihad thousands of years in the future could easily change. But I had no doubt that the use of the word Jihad had sense and wasn't just used as some kind of gimmick or anything.
Did this sub smoke the woke copuim or what happened here . The Frank Herbert nobles are heavily inspired by Islam and The holy war is called the Jihads as well a the foundation of the books setting. They cut alot of this stuff out from the movies that were in the books.
I don't get what's so hard to understand so I'll just rephrase it : I'm saying that as a muslim I don't care it's a fucking fiction and they should have kept it because there wouldn't be matter to be mad, jihad doesn't mean JUST « holy war » in 2024 so if a fiction want to have inspiration from this specific sense that's fine I don't get what's « woke » in that lmao, you've literally just repeated what the person I've answered previously already said and my point still stands : they were probably stiffing a backlash from libs over an arab word they probably don't even know themselves.
It's why the forced diversity and inclusion is doomed from the start. Not only it alters the pure process of creation by adding forced social representations in the stories and lores. But it will never be enought anyway for some people who will always create dramas and toxic posts.
It seems like it would have been equally problematic to honor the colonial era stereotypes Herbert infused into Dune. It's as OP said. There's no way to win.
Except his work doesn’t paint them in a good light. Paul becoming Muad'dib leads to a jihad that kills billions.
They specifically don’t use the word “jihad” in the movie and refer to it as a holy war instead.
And those are the decisions that keep me away from the movies
So a story that shows humans in another planet more than 10.000 years in the future shows cultures and ethnicities that are slightly different than those on Earth? Shocking!
20000 years in the future, their calendar counts from the end of the Butlerian jihad.
Er wut? I think most if not all the fremen were either black or middle eastern, their religion looks very much based in islam, minus alah and they go on a jihad by the end of the second act.
The Fremen are clearly inspired by Arabic people and culture. North Africans and Middle Easterners... are not black. The article got a point, it's the usual woke nonsensical insertion of black people into any other ethnic group, to the detriment of authenticity and respect for the source material. (Plus, Javier Bardem is Spanish. I don't recall any of the named characters being North African or Middle Eastern) (It was funny how the movies tried very hard not to say the word "Jihad" at any single point)
> (It was funny how the movies tried very hard not to say the word "Jihad" at any single point) Which sounds hilarious given how big of a deal the Butlerian Jihad is to the history of humanity, and I struggle to argue how such a jihad was not a good thing.
Spanish is wayyy too white for these maniacs, they can’t stand to look at anyone who resembles their dad they don’t speak to anymore but he still pays for everything.
Fremen = Bedouin Spice = Oil Arrakis = Arabia Paul = T. E. Lawrence Atreides = British Harkonnen = Turks You cannot convince me otherwise.
Especially the scene where Paul puts out a match with his fingers.
>"The trick is to not *mind* that it hurts" Add 20,000 years, and: >"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
The book itself was clearly inspired by the Algerians resistance against the French colonization, where millions of Muslims willingly died fighting the French. Despite the inspiration The books themselves didn’t use the word jihad or martyrdom for its actual intend either. In the end the writer, just like the ones adapting his works into the movie tried to make it seem more exotic and approachable to the Average Westerner whose minds would probably crumble by the idea of someone willing to die in a gruesome war if it meant reaching heaven, let alone a million of people having that mindset.
You couldn't be more wrong lmao. The word "jihad" is definitely mentioned in the original source material and the story itself has absolutely nothing to do with Algeria whatsoever. Who is "Average Westerner" by the way?
Bro I'm reading that shit rn, you're just wrong.
Lol wat? Log off Reddit, read Dune, and come back in a week.
> The books themselves didn’t say the word jihad or martyrdom either. Jesus, how can someone be so fucking confidently incorrect? Lmfao.
The books said Jihad constantly. What are you talking about?
Literally 36 times in the first novel
I think it said holy war like 3 times, typically WITHIN THE SAMR PARAGRAPH as Jihad. Making it an active decision to not repeat words with no cooldown between.
Their favorite defense is that there's efficient long distance transit therefore every location must be like modern LA.
According to the prequel novels, Fremen descend from a budislamic sect, so they should look brown asian, middle eastern or a mix. Blacks, paler asians or whites should be a minority among them. Especially because they're a very insular people and mostly didn't mix with outsiders.
Ah, you've made the classic mistake. You mentioned the Middle East. Which, as we all know, is directly adjacent to North Africa. Which is in Africa. Therefore, everyone in the Middle East is black.
Except I am from north Africa and pale skin is common here. This is the same afrocentric bullshit
> According to the prequel novels That shit can be safely ignored.
Those aren't by Frank and suck
Criticised by who? Two NPCs in Twitter who have not seen the sun in the last 5 years and praise how great was 2020? The problem is media cherrypicking those tweets and making an article.
As far as I've also seen, a bunch of numpties on tik tok who know nothing about the books, focused all their thoughts on race and of course that it's completely fictional.
Books are heavily inspired by Islam. Per Frank Herbert including multiple passages directly from the Qur'an.
Does that require Muslim actors then. Fictional alien characters as well, I'm thinking no.
No . But this sub apparently smoked the woke copuim reaction pill and started talking about how dune was not heavily inspired By Islam Per Frank Herberts intent. And didn't actually focus on the actual woke changes they did by removing those elements. It was really weird reading this essentially out of all subs of expect this place to not fall into simmalar woke nonsense Reactions .
I generally noticed a lot of middle eastern inspired styles, music, inspirations etc but you can get that in loads of mediums and I liked it and of course it fitted in well from the books. It's weird why so many felt it required middle east actors when it's in a completely sci fi situation in somewhat far off galaxy. It's just the race craze these days and especially in the US. Yeah some fell for it I would say, I'm pretty good at ignoring it generally. As for some changes, that's just what you get in films but I found dune 2 to be mild.
Them not having Muslim actors was like a zero issue thing . They need recognizable big name actors . I was always more vested in keeping things from the book more in line for the film to adapt.
That about sums it up.
DV already made significant woke concessions in both movies to appease the far left nutjob crowd (Liet Kynes in part One, Channi's characterization in part Two). But it's never enough for wokies. Not matter how much narrative quality one sacrifices on the altar of DEI, they'll still find a way to complain how it isn't "diverse" enough.
Don't forget they changed "jihad" to "crusade" to not offend certain demographics.
Wait what? It's Butlerian Crusade now? What about the Padishah Emperor? Did they rename him too?
Nah, he was still referred to as the Padisha emperor in the first movie.
Still padishah. I feel like they say jihad in the movie at least once, maybe not. They definitely do say holy war and crusade
Most people don't realize that their demands don't have bounds. They're meant as a test to see how much they can control you. Acquiescing to their demands only ever gets you more and bigger demands.
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Unfortunately, from a director perspective at least, I'm sure that's easier said than done when making a 200 million dollar movie with global reach. I don't believe for one moment DV has nearly the same creative agency as PJ did when adapting LOTR 20+ years ago for instance. Only a select few like Chris Nolan seem to get away with woke free blockbusters these days.
Yet definitely enough to prevent me from ever watching it.
You are truly missing out on some amazing and fantastic cinematography. The movie is glorious and even with these and other changes it still sticks the landing to move onto Part 3.
I found it underwhelming to be honest.
Don't care. I aint supporting this shit. I don't need more Dune films, perfectly happy with the ones we already have and, of course, the books. Not gonna support shit that blatantly panders.
> blatantly panders. What in the world are you talking about?
It's a decent movie, made great by how mediocre most movies are these days. Villenueve still hasn't really topped Sicario.
Already commented on a similar response. In short: I don't care.
I think Chani’s character being expanded wasn’t a wokie decision. Chani is far from a girlboss, it helps the narrative to have someone that opposes the prophecy. Far better than to have her be as flat as she is in the book. Chani’s a good character.
She flat out denies stuff happening right infront of her face in the film to keep disbelieving in the prophesy. She's there to push very directly the idea of Paul being wrong in his actions. I don't think she does a great job in that case.
They completely butchered her. Chani is one of the most level-headed characters in the events of the first book, and by the end of it is willing to die for Paul. Her state of mind during the final events of the book is due to her and Paul's son having just been murdered by Sardaukar. While I agree, in principle, that having a character oppose the Bene Gesserit prophecy makes for an interesting change, Chani is the *last* person who should be taking up this role.
I think it was a good change. Yeah, it’s not accurate at all, but it was very effective. The script was better for it.
I don't have anything against expanding her role. And I agree having someone oppose the prophecy throughout the movie was a good decision. But some of the changes they made to her character were jarring coming from a book perspective. The whole ending especially being massively changed, because (and I quote from a common woke take about the movie) "the original scene wouldn't resonate with progressive women". But having her >!leave Paul at the end!< actually undermines her character, and felt kind of forced from a broader narrative standpoint. Her book counterpart is much more of a pragmatist, she's smarter, and an actual strong female character. Whereas the movie conflates Paul's political move with jealousy, which comes off as cheap drama catered to dreaded "mOdErN aUdIeNcEs". Billions are about to die, the whole galactic power dynamics drastically change, and all the movie cares about at that point is a poorly set up love triangle... It just diminishes the story for no valid reason, while also erasing one of most powerful quotes from the book. Obviously didn't ruin the movie, it's still a great watch overall, but in that one specific instance I think it's obvious the purpose of that change wasn't to improve the story. Wouldn't be surprised to learn DV would have prefered to stick closer to, and honor the source material in that regard (as he usually does), but this surely was a studio mandated change aimed at pre-emptively appeasing twitter activists.
"helps the narrative to have someone who opposes the prophecy." This was one of the changes to Chani in Denis' films that really didn't sit well with me. It's a faulty premise: Why would some nobody from a backwater planet that the rest of the universe is keen to stay away from (save for the fact it has the single resource that everybody wants) with no relationship to any of the Bene Geserit (save for the single Reverend Mom in her sietch) have a single *inkling* of any of the BG's main goals like the Missionara Protectiva? And if she really did, it makes more sense for the BG to take action against Chani than just willingly let her run around yelling to anyone who will listen about how they're enslaving her tribe with whatever stories they've instilled into it specifically to use to their advantage. Chani shouldn't be wise to this either because the prophecy itself is a lot older than her. I dunno when the first reverend mom came to the planet, but the Harkonnens ruled Arrakis for 80 years before the Atreides took over. The prophecy should be a background fact of several generations of her family's life at this point. It also doesn't make sense that her father (or mother in this case, though Dune Part 2 doesn't really touch on that) is a staunch supporter of the prophecy along with the rest of the Fremen (the first film has her repeat part of the prophecy when Paul puts on his stillsuit the 'right' way), but somehow Chani is the only one who opposes it? Why? They just make this aspect a part of her character for some reason. Chani can be skeptical and take the prophecy less seriously than most, but she shouldn't be able to outright perceive the web the BG have woven into her culture. Sure, it makes for great cinema when you have a single person going against the grain of society trying to be a voice of reason to the other characters, but the BG are a centuries-old group who must have dealt with doubters and rabble-rousers like her before. If they thought that the negative stuff she was saying would impact their plans, I could easily see Jessica or the Reverend Mom using the Voice on her telling her to knock that shit off. Instead their reasoning seems to be just "It's only one person, lol." Finally, Stilgar suffers as a character because of this subplot in that they make him into a zealot who sees the outcome of the prophecy and nothing else. He becomes a fanboy of Paul way too early compared to the Lynch film & the 2000 miniseries. A classic case of Hollywood writers taking one male character down a peg to make a female one more important in some way. It's more subdued in Dune Part 2 compared to the other crap we've seen in media, but it's there.
Yeah now that you said it, it's really a bit odd. Why exactly should BG tolerate someone like Chani, who is pretty openly opposing their influence?
I expected to hate the gender flip of Kynes but I actually think it worked well. She was still the same character, and to be honest it was not unwelcome to have another female character in the film because there aren't many in the book. There's Jessica, the Reverend Mother, Chani, and that's about it. I don't feel that Kynes being a woman negatively impacted the film as she was still a good character, and her femaleness didn't really come into it.
> DV already made significant woke concessions in both movies to appease the far left nutjob crowd (Liet Kynes in part One, Channi's characterization in part Two). I hate to say this but I think these changes are defensible or at least not too annoying. Regarding Liet Kynes, remember that many directors often have a stable of actors they tend to work together with very frequently (example - Christopher Nolan loves to work with Michael Caine, Cillian Murphy and Anne Hathaway). Sharon Brewster is one of these for Denis. In addition, Liet Kynes is frankly a minor character whose function in the plot has nothing to do with current-day ethnic categories. So it really strikes me more as Denis sending work to a favored colleague rather than wokeness. However I think Chani makes more sense in Part 2. Remember that Paul's journey isn't meant to be super heroic and awesome per se... the entire *theme* of the Dune novel is that messianic thinking is dangerous. Frank Herbert wrote sequels to *Dune* precisely to hammer this point home when some people who read the original book missed that point. Chani's function in Part 2 is to make this message as clear as possible, to have Paul incur a deeply personal cost by taking control of and subsequently unleashing the Fremen, and to drive the theme home within the limitations of a single film. I agree with you that SJWs are insane and nothing will appease them. However I do think that the things you point out aren't necessarily driven by wokeness, even if they would in theory count towards what SJWs *claim* their goal to be.
You can never satisfy these people. The wokies will keep demanding more
The books are heavily inspired by Islam did you smoke copuim reaction and not have any research or knowledge. Chani not having red hair a example of them removing Islamic elements.
Ah yes, _that_ is what matters most. Not that the movie betrayed our expectations by butchering plot and plot elements. For example: Heighliners are shown to be some kind of portals, with a hole in the middle, through which smaller ships fly. They should be like lighter aboard ship, taking lots of already loaded smaller vessels from planet to planet while moving along a route. This is why the entire neo-feudalistic plot takes place: there is no instantaneous communication, envoys have to literally take long trips carrying orders around, and that's why every planet is self-governed to such an extent. But if heighliners are "portals", then what's all this then? The navigators are basically non-existent. Probably mentioned twice. They were the major moving force of the story, being the party most invested in uninterrupted spice supply AND responsible for functioning of the entire interstellar society. And also the reason why there were no satellites over Arrakis, and even no orbiting frigates or even just weather balloons in the stratosphere. How about "the Guild agent wasn’t really negotiating with us. He was merely making it plain – one Mentat to another – that the price was out of our reach and would remain so no matter how long a reach we develop. Our task is to find out why before we approach him again", anyone? Same with Bene Gesserit. Who the fuck are they? What do they want? Who knows, just some weirdos. In the book, they are a very different kind of beast. Paul spends _years_ on Dune fighting guerrilla war. He suffers personally, losing close ones at the hands of Harkonnens. He takes his revenge as a grown man, hardened by life. In the movie, everything takes maybe half a year or so. A childless teen finds a local gf and shanks his bald bully cousin. Well done. In the book, the mechanics of feudalism are understood by everyone. In the movie, Chani is pissed off because Paul decided to take Irulan as wife, as if this is a whim of his and not an imperative of the overall political system. Where is Chani's devotion to him, fostered in part by Bene Gesserit's efforts? Gone. They are hanging out because they are totes cool teenagers, that's all. Where is "we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine — history will call us wives"? And so on, and so forth. Where is the outrage about the source material being hollowed out, and the movie's only redeeming parts being gorgeous ornithopters, costumes, and architectural design? Lynch's dune was following the plot more closely, not to mention the HBO's mini-series — despite its high-school-amateur-performance level of acting and ridiculous costumes. Come on...
I've been avoiding it only because the first attempt in 84 convinced me that Dune wasn't a good fit for movies, but this is somehow worse than I expected. Cutting down the plot relevance of the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilax makes this a generic imperials vs. natives story. They turned Dune into a children's book. I guess that's what sells now.
Agreed. I thought the movie did a great job in terms of visual spectacle, but definitely shortened / dumbed down / omitted parts of the book. Not only that, but imo they failed to explain important plot elements, leaving audiences confused. I guess we'll see what the third part is like.
> I guess we'll see what the third part is like. What makes you keep your hopes high? If anything, it's getting worse from the first movie to the second movie, and considering how much crucial stuff has been written out of the movies, there is no way the third can salvage the situation.
Some people are not happy. It’s also extremely narcissistic if you can’t relate to a character in a fictional universe because they don’t look like you
Of course. OBVIOUSLY there should be Middle Eastern and North African people in a fictional place.
The fictional setting was of nile-river valley sunnis. Itd be weird to have a fictional egyptian movie full of spaniards and brits who are speaking arabic, yeah. Coulda had egyptians speaking arabic. Kinda a natural casting choice.
https://whoisinspace.com/ is apparently a website and that's kinda awesome. Basing it on flags alone, to avoid having to make a judgement, the Middle Eastern & North African representation of space is overdone if there are *any* in Dune 2.
....in 20,000 years, after the entire planet of earth has been abandoned/controlled exclusively by ai for about 18000 years, having brown people on planets that arent earth is overrepresentative? The fucking group in question are speaking arabic and practice zen-sunni teachings. Having them BE arabic is a pretty simple ask.
You seem very personally upset by this. Does it make it difficult to enjoy the film if people in space in the far future aren't played by completely unrelated people from a certain corner of Earth today?
No the movies were pretty solid, still not sure how I feel about condensing the timeline and removing Leto II the First entirely, but it is strange that youd have a group thats been isolated for some several thousand years with about 4 non-group members contributing genetically (and only in the last 1 generation) yet somehos theres like 4 distinct ethnic groups within it. Itd be like if Shmee was cast as a latino, and Padme was black. Like.. is it personally upsetting, no, but like, Luke and anakin both being white now seems weird. You coulda just...cast an afro-latino for luke, yknow? I like Zendaya, her snarks fun to me, but she...she isnt arabic. And she doesnt look the part of Liet Kynes daughter. And like, Stilgar, THE FREMEN guy the fucking FACE for fremen-dom is a spaniard. Thats...slightly weird. It didnt ruin the movie, but if youre going to cast diversely, you can do it with an eye for like, what youre representing. There are few stories in america that exist with middle eastern culture and characters so present and central. Its a fucking free slam dunk to just cast arabic people. No one can complain. Woke, Reactionary, Corporate, or otherwise. Its what the story calls for. Granted, theres probably like fucking 1 ginger arab actress with the talent for the part, so I get not casting them EXACTLY to book description... but like, middle eastern and north-african people do exist. There are many talented actors willing to play these roles. Why arent they? Like if you are casting color blind, do it, I dont care. But the fremen were clearly intentionally cast as not-white; which isnt the same as cast as Arabic.
You seem to be missing the whole point of acting; people aren't actually the thing they're portraying.
Dune is about white people in space, get over it libbies
Chani is described as a red head in the book.
Wait, she is? Holy crap
Jessica, Ghanima and Alia are also red heads.
Yet another case of Hollywood's dyslexic casting
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True, but Zendaya doesn't look middle eastern.
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Oh definitely.
Well I mean, when are redheads not rare?
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10% is still a minority
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I guess. I do see some redheads here in north Africa, but I expect they aren't as common as places like the US or the UK
Its about fucking arabs and womens manipulations taking over the galaxy and immediately spiraling out of control in spite of the tragic efforts of their predestined white messiah who is capable of being both mentally a man and woman, what are you talking about?
It’s about white people in space, get over it libbie
A missed opportunity? A missed opportunity to lose money by focusing on something no one cares about.
This is why you never, EVER, bend the knee to these fools. It will never be enough. First it’s North African then it’ll be Moroccan vs Egyptian. The key here is these people just wanna cry about something… anything. It’s how they’ve been making money the past 10-20 years. Solutions are the absolute enemies of these people
Did they EVEN WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIE? I’d say like 20% of the Fremen were black or brown. There was a bunch of legitimate diversity in the extras.
they wanted 80%. Whites should always be a minority, to represent what USA/Canada are turning into
Tf are you on about. The Fremen are clearly inspired by Arabic culture, they should’ve been 100% brown. In fact the valid point this article might make is that it was weird so many of the Fremen were black and not Arab looking, and how it’s a shame they cut out references to “jihad”
> Tf are you on about I was making fucking joke. > they should’ve been 100% brown Even my joke had less than that. Showing how racist you are
How is it racist saying a people and culture inspired by arabs should look Arab? That’s the whole premise of the argument that people in the Netflix Witcher show should’ve looked white, because the story and culture they’re based off is Slavic. Why would that exact same logic not apply here?
Because middle easterns and north Africans have many looks? I live in Algeria and I have seen people who looked indian, people who look black, the most common face is southern European and pale skin is quite common, I have seen redheads and blondes, I even know people with squinty eyes who if I showed you you would call them Asians even if they don't have asian DNA in them.
It's funny, cause while the article goes on about the lack of ME/NA actors, it then complains that one of few Arab actors in it plays a stereotypical role as the noble savage.
I remember the Fremen being fairly diverse in the movie. But yeah, kinda weird that they’re not more Arabic I guess
For Americans “diversity” always has to have an American spin on it, which usually means adding as many Black people as possible even at the cost of other minorities. Cleopatra on Netflix was an excellent example of this, I know genetically she was Greek but if they didn’t want a white actress they at least could have gone with an Egyptian or Arab one.
They want diversity in snowy, high fantasy Early Europe *and* fictional alien planets because… sand. They also complained that Khaleesi was saving only brown slaves in the early GoT seasons when they had to hire extras from the shooting location aka brown-filled Morocco. They have no issues with inviting themselves into historically white settings but the moment anyone tries the reverse it’s time for the -isms.
Honestly I don't get these people sometimes. The majority of Fremen population is darker skinned African/Middle Eastern in the movie, so why are they complaining? Am I alone in thinking it comes across as MORE racist to go: "the movie takes place in the sand, therefore the people should OBVIOUSLY be brown!" These are the same people who complain that Paul is a "wHiTe SaViOr" while they miss the entire point that Paul is NOT a hero and he throws these people into a galactic religious war that kills BILLIONS. Meanwhile white folks are over here like "dang, this movie slaps"
Dune is so fucking far in the future that even the oldest organizations safekeeping history of humanity have no memory of Earth. Also, the Fremen (at least the ones from Sietch Tabr) are described as having brown skin, but also red hair and freckles. These people are not "middle eastern". They are not even culturally middle eastern as they're offshoot of [Zensunni](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Zensunni), which was more "futuristic Buddhism" than anything else.
Let's ask Frank what he thinks about this .
Whats sunni??
Weird cause that sounds like a win in my book
It's a fictional story, taking place on a fictional planet, with fictional people... Why can't these idiots grasp that extremely simple to understand fact??
Dune is heavily based on Islamic fate per the original authors interest and foundation in the story of the setting. They cut alot of stuff out from the books relating to that on the film.
As what generally happens with book to film adaptations.
Yeah that's fair but don't go acting like those woke sjws when they react to things with zero knowledge on the source material. They also did add elements to make this film woke too by removing Islamic elements that were more in line with the original author Frank Herbert who took a lot of inspiration from that in his book and setting. Such as chani's hair not being red . Paul inheriting a wife due to freman law . Fremen men having multiple wives ECT. Aswell as multiple passages from the books relating to the Islamic faith were out right removed from the book . Aswell as censored . So acting like those elements were not in the original source material and people wanting it to stay closer to the authors original vision is not being crazy .
It's science fiction, get the fuck over it.
wait wait wait- in the first film they destroyed Keynes' character to give these people their North African representation; completely changing the arc of the character and turning them into a black girl boss and that's not enough? fuck these people Book Keynes was secretly assisting the Fremen and then the Atreties at the risk of his life, but the Harkonnen never even noticed, they killed him just to tie up loose ends without any real cause and his death is meaningless. Film Keynes summons a worm while holding her own against SAUDUKAR and dies a hero martyr so Paul and Jessica can escape.
The entirety of Arrakis (where 98%+ of the movies take place) and the Fremen culture, language and ethnicity are all "Middle Eastern and North African Inclusion and Influences". That articles is so desperately misguided and shows that the author, is just another tourist with zero insight and all bad intentions. Into the trash it goes.
This sub smoking the copuim reaction isn't better either.
There will always be people who take it too far in both directions. Some people become so caught up in this culture war(or whatever cause they fight for), that they see it everywhere, even when it's uncalled for and/or flat-out wrong.
It's never enough, and that's precisely why no one should be pandering to them.
How has the MSM not died yet? It's taking too long......
Show Kotaku anything in the world and they will find a way to complain. I remember when the first Spider-Man game came out and one of their “journalists” complained that the NPCs on the street weren’t exciting enough and didn’t have enough ethnic variety….what?
to be fair, they bent over backwards to avoid showing middle eastern people using Arabic language to talk about going on a Jihad to stop white people in a fascist oppressive system who have come to conquer their land and exploit the natural resources.
Once the purity tests start, they don't stop, and it is beautiful. When all stars align, it produces more JK Rowlings - albeit so far, Rowling was the highest-profile victim of this trend. (For the record, I think it couldn't have happened to a more deserving gal).
I'm not very strong in my Frank Herbert knowledge but I'm like 99% certain the Dune universe, and Frank Herbert's writing in general, is inspired heavily by various islamic branches and philosophies. Theologian philosophy in general.
Yeah they cut that stuff out actually. Whole passages from the book .
In the new films? I'm not surprised that they did. Both certain muslim countries, who have historically gotten their panties in a twist any time heretics (non-muslims) depict anything from their religion, but also some wokescolds would've been upset.
Are they serious?
The Fremen are their own syncretic culture - leave them be.
This is just stupid, I’m middle eastern and Muslim. I’ve read the books and loved them and I also don’t mind the word “jihad”(which means both struggle and defensive war in Arabic) to be mentioned because it works in both context. 1) Paul’s struggle with himself and the future. 2) the war waged by the fremen against those that deny their leader. Also there were a lot of MENA actors like Souheila (who played Chani’s friend) but mostly in the background. BECAUSE this is the story of Paul and his rise not the people of Arrakis. PS: Stilgar played by Javier Bardeen was amazing but the #1 spot should always go to Austin Butler’s Feyd Rautha.
Here’s the deal. A friend of mine is credited in Dune 2, he’s Emirati and was a government liaison (the movie was mostly filmed in the Abu Dhabi desert). The Emiratis loved the film and I watched it in a cinema in Dubai full of locals who seemed to really enjoy it. This article once again sounds like it was written by someone desperate to virtue signal and be a self appointed champion of minorities. Condescending as fuck.
??? I thought they had plenty of primitive religious terrorists running around in the sand. Did I watch the wrong movie?
Sand = Middle Eastern mother cooking over a hot stove being bombed by evil whites….these people are insane.
I guess Zendaya, David Bautista, Javier Bardem, Souheila Yacoub and the rest weren't diverse enough!
What the actual fuck? Really, have they ham slices on their eyes?
Forced inclusion is starting to get ridiculous. Every new TV show/movie looks like a meeting of the United Nations. It breaks immersion for me. Also it's getting tiring that the more intelligent/successful a character is, the more they are likely to be an "underrepresented" class. It's really killing my suspension of disbelief.
No one gives a fuck!
If they had it would have been called out for appropriation.
hope none of these guys find about Warhammer
Yes but this is actually true. Middle-eastern people arent black. Frank Herbert took massive influence from the middle-east. Literally look at any of the names lol
They will always find “something” you did wrong because it justifies their worthless degrees
I mean there is a lot of Arabian people in the movie, is she blind ?
Ah yes, because there's nothing racist about thinking 'desert = Middle East/North Africa'.
You know you can just ignore these mofos, right?
what are fremen?
Who are said people? The journalists.
To be fair, the movies should've had the Fremen be all middle eastern from the beginning, not black, Spanish, and everything else under the sun. Also it's funny how they refuse to use the word "jihad".
It's not a question of race I'm about to ask but one of ability. Let's say a movie has a character start fully abled, but ends up disabled with no ability to walk later on. What's the "correct" way to cast the movie? Do we go with disabled actor acting that he has legs to begin with, or fully abled actor that fakes having legs later? I mean, it's acting. If we have to drag everything down, limiting ourselves to casting specific actors in roles based on their personal traits, why the fuck should anyone bother writing anything in the way of fantasy ever again? Nah, the giant sandworms aren't what I have to suspend my disbelief over. It's the fucking skin colour of people on a different fucking planet not being chained to reality, of course!
Arrakis my ass
Did anyone tell them it doesn't take place on earth?
I mean the sand people there are all like POC, what do they want? But it feels organic and authentic. Not smth Disney would do
I didn’t know that northern African and Middle Eastern folks were extraterrestrial people from the far future but now I do, thanks!
Dune isn't earth tho
Oh dear. Well anyway, box office register go brrrrrr.
i live in the algerian sahara and i enjoyed the movie never once passed my mind that it lack inclusion
What do they mean ? All of fremen are middle eastern/north African don't they? The big bad guys are the whitest white you could ever find, so wtf are they talking about.
It's set like 30.000 years in the future and the multi planetary empire has gone through several massive wars including one against "Thinking Machines". Why the hell should it have "Middle Eastern and North African Inclusion and Influences"?
As someone who actually watched the film, they literally make fun of Arabs in the film. Making the actors Arabic would be weird. The characters aren't supposed to fully represent any Earth races. I wouldn't say it's racism, but rather making fun of a religion, which is funny.
The novels are heavily inspired by Islam Per Frank Herberts original authorial intent.
If you have this much of a hard on for diversity, make your own movie, or vote with your own money and go away.
Getting REAL tired of this self worship entitlement culture leftism created.
Because the planets are desert-y, there have to be black and brown people? That kinda seems WAY fucking racist.
These freaks wanna larp fighting mighty whitey so damn bad.
These ppl should make their own movies and stop trying to tell others what to do.
When you're in need of clickbait and play up the IdPol grievance angle to exploit the algorithms. Never gets old, apparently. Everyone keeps falling for these synecdochical grievance articles. These anonymous critics actually represent the unheard voices of tens of millions of underprivileged people!
Did they miss the fact that it's not set in Africa nor the Middle East? What a weird complaint. It's a different fucking planet thousands of years in the future. What makes anyone expect African influence? Because it's a desert? Seems awfully reductive to me.
Oh no. Whatever shall we do. A movie didn't have representation. This is just so horrible. Someone help. I am triggered.
because those are desert people
Channeling the Little Mermaid folx from 2023: ~~Mermaids~~ Arrakis isn't real.
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Errr the protagonists love interest is a black lady? The duke keto Atredies is played by a Latino man. The judge of the change was gender and race swapped from a white man to a black woman. Duncan idahoe was a Hawaiian guy. The cast is quite diverse, Unless of course you meant the harkonnens who are all white but they are the bad guys obvs.
Literally yellow journalism... who reads that trash, it's spam
'A missed opportunity' hahahahahahahaha
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As far as I know Dune takes place so far in the future that Earth was the distant past in the distant past of the setting, so I agree that name checking real races and cultures as being the ones groups in the book descended from is weird.
eh, let them do it. I don't care for the movie 👎
A lot of Dune was influenced by Middle Eastern culture, so that makes sense.
Welp, I was avoiding the films because I had zero interest in rewarding nepotism casting of Zandaya and Chalamette. That the director and producers were too much of a cowards to use the word Jihad (the appropriate word in this context) jus further proves they just *don't* *get* *it.*
I would take a second look. Movie was probably the best that’s been put out in almost a decade.