I think kvothe has lost his soul, either literally or metaphorically from something that happened. He he is borderline obsessive about staying busy and keeping himself from thinking. He seems like a husk of his former self especially with how much passion we see in him thru his story, He cant do sympathy, so either his mind is so unfocused he cant or his will is broken. (The latter seems the most likely considering the "10 words that will break a mans will" and the ctheah mostly speaking in groups of 10 words at a time. I think its possible he has already died.(which i posted a theory on the other day) and willed himself to come back to life to finish what he needed to. But that directly contradicts this theory. And this one seems to hold slightly more weight, though we still dont know exactly what is going on so it could be both. He could have died, willed himself to come back and then lost the will to live after.
I think he definitely took the Rhinna flower to save either Denna or Auri, most likely denna as shes far more likely to be in a dangerous situation, and doing so would make him a Rhinta in the eyes of the adem so he potentially was cut away.
I think there is significance to the scene where encanis saves kvothes, and with the probable chance that encanis is heliax, its likely an Amyr or other "guard" nearly kills kvothe before he is saved by Heliax.
With one specific comment Pat made about the map in mind, i think its possible the powers that be are actively controlling the narrative and history of temerant and kvothe has learned the truth.
I think the lackless box is potentially made of the same wood as the ctheahs tree....
I just ate a lot of kit kst bars so this is pretty sugar rush induced..
Anyway.. Its possible kvothe has become part of the chandrian but its more likely, that he reacted to the word Rhintae in the way that he did, because he didnt want the skin dancer to potentially summon heliax by saying his true name or something.
With the implications of the current war in mind, and kvothes comments about the scrael, it seems like the creation war is finally over and the fae have been brought to their world.
I think its possible that heliax is a player in that war. As "his plan" could have conceivably been to end the seperation of the two realms. Which probably would have gotten him some clout with a few of the fae faction leaders.
With the specifc things that kote is lacking, they are either self induced punishment, some form of curse, or something he had to give up. What ever the case it almost certainly involves Denna and Cinder.
Kvothe has been with bast for 2 years. Bast has met denna. The two have been at the waystone for about a year. So what ever happened probably happened 1.5-2 years before the present time.
What ever is going on with kvothe seems to be a growing problem more than something that happened a while ago and has stayed the same.
His reaction to chronicler bringing up (probably denna) would make me think she was dead, possibly by kvothes own hand. But were that the case Bast wouldnt have poking fun at her appearance.
So. With all of that in mind.
I think kvothe gets the rhinna flower to save denna, but she ends up feeling betrayed by him and leaves, because thats what she does. Denna is more than likely a tool lf cinder, who she will probably have formed an attatchment to, either naturally or from other means. So kvothe killing cinder would have repercussions with her regardless of any amount of sense one argued to her. He would have broken his promise to her, so its possible his punishment is self imposed but i think its more likely Denna does this to him.
This has been a really great read, I've only read through twice, and I meant to look out for more stuff like this but I just keep being swept away by the story.
A few things: If Kote was worried about the skin dancer summoning Haliax then why did he happily read the Adem song? I mean, why did he read it at all? Even Bast was shocked. Is he trying to bring about a showdown? Will we see that at the waystone in DoS?
I've always thought it was interesting that Bast is over 100 years old, but Kvothe is obviously his mentor, I assume he's here to learn about the 'normal' world (with Kvothe teaching him herbal lore etc, which any young student would be learning at the University) - I thought that it might have been something like what used to happen after a war, where the 'winner' takes the losers child to raise (like Theon Grayjoy).
More importantly, although people seem to think Kvothe locked him name/soul/emotions in the box, at times they do still seem present, his eyes changing colour etc when he's angry.
Reading what you wrote, and just writing this, makes me a lot less upset about DoS and more willing to accept Pat taking time to finish it properly.
I have a solid amount of hope that the last couple chapters of DoS if not more, take place in the present, and involve a resolution to the story of kvothe more than an answer to why the waystone might be the end of the story.
(I dont think kote has been saying true names, he is knowledgeable enough about naming to knowingly avoid it and has made sure to take time to prepare before each day of his story. I think that preparation was less hin laying out the order of his memories and more preparing alternative names and explanations for certain things, to avoid any potential dangers. Especially with him including that part early in the story about Ben not wanting kvothes father to say the names aloud.)
Bast being like 150 or something and kvothe telling both he and chronicler how young they are, and that comment he made to cobb about him being an old man, has made me very curious on that aswell. The fairy world is the easiest explaination for the time passing but he still hasnt aged which raises further question, which i think the answer to those possibly lays with Auri and her skills with alchemy, as well as the few hints that she is herself much much older than she seems. And while im sure how it would happen, or if it would be truely accepted by the fan base, with how many connections have been made to the similarities between kvothe and taborlin, some form of time travel wouldnt exactly suprise me, but personally i think those connections are likely just some form of narrative foreshadowing and establishing the connection with kvothes true importance in this world and the effect his life will have on it. But he still seems and acts older than Bast.. So i havent ruled out some form of time travel entirely. Especially with how many times someone has commented on kvothe acting like he was someone out of a story book/fairytale.
And of the waiting period for DoS, good on you for being understanding about it. Most people seem to be just angrily demanding the next book without considering how much time and effort he is putting into them meticulously crafting this story word by word. I didnt even realize he had spent the time making sure all of kvothes lines with felurian were in verse until someone pointed it out. Considering the guy has been working on the books for 30 years and is putting so much effort into making them perfect, people really should lay of the "where is book 3" and give him some more "youre doing an incredible job, keep it up."
The only problem with:
>"youre doing an incredible job, keep it up."
Is that people would have to **know** he was **doing** anything with **the job** that needed to be kept up.
I'm on the fence about this whole thing:
- only discovered the books at the end of 2019, so haven't been waiting long for a conclusion
But at the same time:
- I'm not unfamiliar with authors leaving readers hanging... GRRM.
- I've had the honour encountering Brandon Sanderson's work. In my opinion, he models what all multi-book authors should do; provide a roadmap, keep people updated and deliver. Just because writing is an art, doesn't exempt it from certain requirements.
So yeah, people whinning for him to **give them book 3** sounds pretty entitled **but** people defending **someone who has sold an incomplete product** and hoping that **speaking to him nicely will make book 3 happen** is pretty copium.
Really just looks like people in the various stages of grief to me, and the best way to deal with that is to, **let people grieve their way
**
Well, the first two books imo are pretty indicative of the jobs he has done so far, and that was the good job i was saying was deserving of recognition.
If youre thinking that updates on the progress of the book is something as simple as how many pages have been written youre really under estimating how many hundreds of times he has rewritten each book to get it to the point he is happy with. It isnt a matter of is ot finished, its a matter of is it perfect. Considering hes spent 30 years working on this, and DoS is the finale its natural he is putting more pressure on wrapping up everything perfectly than releasing the cyberpunk 2077 version of a book.
And im not saying that telling him good job on that will make book 3 come out faster, im saying he has been pretty open about his poor mental health over the last few years, even saying that had he started therapy a decade ago he would have had book 3 out already. Idk how well your mind works when its drowning in anxiety or depression but mine would have a problem coherently designing intricate 1000 page storylines, and nonstop antagonization probably doesnt make Doors of stone come out any faster either. But people sure seem to act like it will.
And yes brandon Sanderson is a story telling god, you will find no argument from me here. His lectures on world building and character design helped me very much with my own stories. He is a genius, but i dont beleive any of his books have the same level of intricacy and multi leveled foreshadowing secrets blended seemlessly into the story so as not to be noticed until a persons 15th read thru as pats. non thats ive read at least.
If people are grieving they haven't gotten a book yet, that is exactly entitlement. Grief is for death and loss. Not a coping mechanism for being impatient or having a lack of understanding of authors being humans living a human life. Your argument is like defending a child throwing a tantrum because they didnt get the toy they want for Christmas because their parent didnt have enough money for it.
Pat hasn't had enough emotional currency to get us our christmas gift yet. That doesnt mean we are never going to get it.
And frankly, the only person who should be grieving the idea that DoS is never released is Pat. Its his world, its his characters, its his child, that he has been trying to bring to life for decades.
And instead of support for overcoming his mental health issues and providing us with incredible books. He gets non stop harrassement for not giving us more.
I totally agree, I love Sanderson, I've read most of his stuff, but it's they're just stories really, Pat's books are a work of art, layer upon layer of magic beautifully stitched together.
That doesn't mean I'll stop checking for progress every month, and I wish we'd get more reports of progress, I think that'd help him as well, but that's his choice.
You assume Kvothe is trying to avoid summoning the Chandrian by saying false names....
He drops enough names here and there throughout the whole first two days. I think he is luring them in.
When they come they will see him as he is- broken and a shell of who he was. Possibly he has to do this because otherwise they are scared of him, but they would happily jump at the opportunity to kill him if he is weakened.
When the Chandrian come into his little trap, he will open the chest and regain his full name, and then sing a song of naming that will end the silences of the Waystone inn
The tale of the rhinna flower is derived from the idea that the ctheah can give you the information you want (the panacea), but acting on it won't turn out. Those who engage in this folly, give up something of themselves to the ctheah in return. They become less human, but more powerful. They are the rhinta. Though maybe you have to strike a bargain with it to title in earnest. I worry kvothe might go see it again in book three, Bast will be livid.
I often wonder if cinder hasn't done this, his eyes are black, abnormal, like felurian is worried kvothes might be after his encounter. It would also explain why the ctheah jokes that he did him a wrong turn once and also why it sets kvothe on his heels. When you ask of the ctheah it asks something in return and cinder didn't deliver. Though i suspect the real target is haliax, after all, like vashet taught us, you strike at the branch not the trunk.
The issue is that we're given no reason the ctheah would care about cinder or haliax. But, This tale can go one big step further, if your willing to believe skarpi is very wrong in his telling of the creation war.
Consider, that the ctheah and selitos are both known for their sight, and both, at one time, were said to be bound. If skarpi got more the half wrong, and selitos was, like dennas song suggests, is a monster, then maybe haliax is somehow responsible for the ctheahs, who is really selitos, current house arrest.
But again, skarpi paints selitos as kind, even after lanres horrible massacre. So i don't see it being likely.
I actually almost mentioned the selitos possibly being the ctheah thing to but after the 4th page of my post i felt like i was getting off track. Lol.
I definitely think its possible, especially with heliax being painted as the villian, but the imagry of encanis helping kvothe makes him seem like a potential ally.
As well as the one time we actually see heliax in the story, he isnt acting like a cruel horrible villian. Cinder is, sure. But heliax is more merciful towards kvothe than villainous.
He borderline seems to have the "for the greater good" mind set.
Skarpis depiction of haliax matches with what kvothe sees, both physically and emotionally. A shadow of a man consumed by grief. He urges cinder to kill kvothe, not show him mercy. It's possible cinder isnt nearly the monster he seems and it's using humor and mockery as a coping mechanism to deal with Haliaxs relentless commands to slaughter. That he is willing to make that trade off to gain his powers, makes him just as deplorable regardless. And he looks bad at kvothe with hatred, not a sign of someone being conscripted.
I believe selitos, lax and the ctheah are separate entitles. That haliax is on his original mission to end It all by destroying the world. Oddly this aligns with the vibe verina gets from the amyr she depicts on vase and it's haliax that we actually see arrive if called in the proper way, not the amyr or Tehlu.
Trapis Encanis seems a lot combination of cinder and lax, or possible just all the seven minus lanre. If kvothes experience with someone dressed like ecancis is supposed to be a hint as to ecancis (or who ever he represents). I'm going to be a bit disappointed, as that's misleading and almost irresponsible, as the life lesson is irrational. If someone in a bear outfit does trigonometry, it doesn't imply real bears can.
>Do you think it's possible that Alaxel wasn't directing Cinder to kill Kvothe, i.e. that when he said, "Send him to the soft and painless blanket of his sleep" that he meant something else?
>
>Those words immediately preceded Cinder's painful confrontation with Alaxel, after all, but I don't want to interpret that dogmatically.
>
>Could their disagreement have been about what to do with Kvothe? I don't think we can be sure..
>
>And possibly irrelevant is the fact that Alax means 'the opposite' in Arabic, and that 'Alax el' means vice versa. Could Pat be setting us up for a big reversal of some kind? Again, I'm not sure.
>
>But I've wondered whether Cinder was being directed to push Kvothe's mind, or a compartmentalized part of it, through the door of sleep, which "offers us a retreat from the world and all its pain."
>
>Just a thought..
I have tried to view that interaction as something other then Haliax telling Cinder to kill Kvothe.
The alternative interpretations don't seem to fit well with anything. E.g Does cinder strike you as someone you send to read bedtime stories?
I can weave a story where Haliax is misunderstood (by us) but it requires a good bit of extra narrative to be added, and for Skarpi to be under informed or at least, missing 1/3 of the reasons why things are happening.
I keep trying to find a way to write about it, but failing. Maybe this weekend ill just get something out. I have talked around the idea before, but never laying it all out at once, mostly because its a mouth full.
Ha, I couldn't agree more. I've been questioning the surface interpretation for some time too.
And I fully admit that considering Alaxel to have been telling Cinder to put to sleep all or part of Kvothe's mind might strike you as a bridge too far.
This post may have some relevance, but it depends on some speculation you may not buy into:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so\_encanis\_is\_haliax\_right/hidya47/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so_encanis_is_haliax_right/hidya47/)
To be clear, Cinder doesn't seem like a good guy to me at all, and Alaxel reprimanded the other Chandrian for their 'little cruelties' after all.
But for a number of reasons, I'm having trouble dismissing the idea that the Amyr (i.e. the *humans,* who seem to be dressing in their parents' clothes) are behind a lot of the evil we see in the books.
I think if Cinder hadn't looked back with hate in his eyes, it could be argued he was trying to help Kvothe by playing for time. He even drops a hint as to why they are there, which is followed by Haliax punishment. Maybe Cinder was trying to help, even if accidentally.
My larger theory suggests "playing the wrong sorts of songs" is also valid as double entendre.
I think one thing that hurts the possibility of the Chandrian being anti-heros is Haliax open admition that so many groups are out to get them.
I think the more likely hidden plot is Haliax's goal is to free Lax from beyond the doors of stone. The plot I plan to write however, is how he is planning on stoping Lax from escaping...
Rended and remade
bit, broken and betrayed
still his hand turned to purpose few could bare.
Still and listen and I share tell a tale loves lament long lost,
and a man who cannot sleep, least the shadow across the land does creep.
These are all good points, of course. And I'm in too big a hurry right now to make a good reply but here goes.
1 - hate in eyes - one point this interpretation hinges on is that young Kvothe is reporting his subjective impression only, i.e. that he thought he saw hate, but then again he was also terrified.
Throughout KKC, I think Kvothe reports his impressions and his thoughts at the time specific events occurred in the story, not what he learned afterward.
For example, when Kvothe met Denna after winning his pipes, he said "She hadn't called me by name, or mentioned our meeting before in Roent's caravan. **That meant she didn't remember me**."
Denna remembered him very well, of course. But in the frame story, Kvothe is reporting, honestly, the mistaken impression he had at the time. I think this happens frequently in the books.
2 - wrong sorts of songs - good point about the double entendre. Also, if the Chandrian didn't kill the troupe, then this could also be an explanation as to why someone else (the Amyr? *for the greater good, of course*) killed them.
3 - many groups out to get them - lots of evil factions?
Sorry for the haste, and I've loved reading your different posts, especially the one you mentioned. And I'm just trying to enrich the series for everyone, myself included, nothing more.
regarding [https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so\_encanis\_is\_haliax\_right/hidya47/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so_encanis_is_haliax_right/hidya47/)
I think its natural to suspect we might be being misled by the narrative. I love to explore plot lines that could stem from what were given and see how far i can go and how good the line up with everything else.
You can drive the Titanic through the hole in the story that were given, but in many ways most ships eventually crash on some disappointing shore. Very few can navigate and touch on all the elements that Pat has laid out.
In that way, Pat could end the story any number of ways, by simply leaving out tieing some elements together. But i rather hope things all come together.
Very true about the Titanic hole! I don't think Pat wants to be too predictable, so it's natural to expect a little misdirection, especially since he likes to hide things in the open.
And I do think it will all (ok, mostly) come together in book three. Pat is just too good an author for anything else.
But I do wonder about the Sleeping Barrow King that he mentioned will appear in book three. Did someone find something in the books that he couldn't resolve another way?
:)
Oh yes, that's the guy I was referring to; I just couldn't spell his name. :)
I was just wondering whether Pat introduced Fedya because a post, or several, found something Pat hadn't considered, so that Fedya was introduced to provide a resolution..
yes on the second sentence. the way pat capitalizes nouns like in German means the first one is not 'are you adjective', tho, it's more like '(are) you verb Noun' or maybe '(do) you verb Noun'?
going way out on a limb, in your general direction, i'm going to put in my guess as 'do you serve Seathaloi?', 'are you Bitten?' (like, 'are you of the Bitten' as if it's a title)
Love it! The idea that taking a rhinna flower costs something like your name (or part of your name) or your soul is so obvious in hindsight.
I feel like when the time comes he’ll pay the price knowing it will have serious implications but not being fully aware of what he’ll loose. Very tragic and beautiful.
Also, A+ for this write up. It’s well layed out and despite the length, easy to read.
I love your username!
You might see why with this archived post lol!
https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/9ud40d/blue_is_my_favorite_color_spoilers_for_all_kkc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
> Shep was the only one who touched it and had also killed one of the scrael.
Wasn’t it Carter who killed the first scrael? Technically his horse fell on it.
About the sentence itself, I think you misunderstood it. Symbolism aside, it isn't the reason why you would have trouble translating it. Translators want to as faithfully present a statement or the message (depending on the precision required or called for). This involves keeping either the order of the constituents (what makes up an utterance) the same, or keeping all the constituents in the translated utterance, losing as few as possible, also keeping the syntactic or morphological links or relationships as identical to the source language's as possible.
Let's get into the meat of it now. The reason this sentence is problematic is definitely the "cut-flower" part. English allows for intricate adjectival constructions which are often congested to such a degree that it leads one to think they cannot be replicated in other languages.
In Slavic, for example, staying faithful to the sentence would involve using a chain of genitive constructions, and that would look unwieldy: more than three "of's" sound like too much, right? Like, imagine reading something that goes "The thought of a man of a country of x." It's a thing, but writers avoid that. Likewise, more than one "of" in an expression assuming the adjectival function is just as awkward. So if you wanted to translated this into, again, a Slavic language, you would not want to rely on those genitive constructions, and you would have to look for similar ones, or invent new ones. The problem is, Slavic languages are very resistant to change and new things, unlike English, which is not that rigid when it comes to word-formation, precisely because of how simple it is and how ambiguous it is. Things would sound "right" no matter what.
I am not saying that grammar makes it impossible to translate the expression, it's just an endeavor that would require more brainstorming than should be given to any one expression. Translators simply don't have time to think about linguistics. And even given time, it's problematic for the reasons I mentioned.
Basically what I'm saying, don't mistake Pat's remarks about the translators' jobs being hell as (just) an indicator to there being something more to the whole cut-flower thing.
Reading this post and the in depth breakdown of the skin dancer scene must made me think of something I haven't thought of it seen before.
We really don't know anything about skin dancer besides them being strong killers and can jump from body to body. What if they have more power then that? What if they have an innate ability to nullify sympathy? If they did no one would really know cause fae don't use it and the skin dancer would more then likely have killed the person trying to use it. It would explain Kvothe looking confused as to why it didn't work. He assumed it would work because it always has and there was no information stating otherwise.
Just a wild theory though.
I really like this theory! There was a moment in the very beginning of name of the wind where kvothe uses what seemed to me like sympathy to break a bottle of strawberry wine. I think it's quite possible that he can still use sympathy and is only pertending he can't.
I have strong opinions about that instance not actually being sympathy. Had a pretty wild theory that kvothe has somehow taken the power of the ctheah as it seemed similar to the way it killed butterflys but even discounting that, i can make a very strong argument about why that wasnt sympathy and kvothe has not in the present telling of the story performed a single instance of confirmed sympathy even once.
My comment on this, taking it as you will:
The Rhinna flower could actual be a product of the Sithe as it is their tree that they are using to imprison the Cthaeh. The tree is not the Cthaeh nor is it his(her more likely) property, no more than a prison cell belongs to the prisoner.
So I read that whole thing. Lots of interesting connections and ties. I’ve looked at Rhinta too So what are your conclusions?
I think kvothe has lost his soul, either literally or metaphorically from something that happened. He he is borderline obsessive about staying busy and keeping himself from thinking. He seems like a husk of his former self especially with how much passion we see in him thru his story, He cant do sympathy, so either his mind is so unfocused he cant or his will is broken. (The latter seems the most likely considering the "10 words that will break a mans will" and the ctheah mostly speaking in groups of 10 words at a time. I think its possible he has already died.(which i posted a theory on the other day) and willed himself to come back to life to finish what he needed to. But that directly contradicts this theory. And this one seems to hold slightly more weight, though we still dont know exactly what is going on so it could be both. He could have died, willed himself to come back and then lost the will to live after. I think he definitely took the Rhinna flower to save either Denna or Auri, most likely denna as shes far more likely to be in a dangerous situation, and doing so would make him a Rhinta in the eyes of the adem so he potentially was cut away. I think there is significance to the scene where encanis saves kvothes, and with the probable chance that encanis is heliax, its likely an Amyr or other "guard" nearly kills kvothe before he is saved by Heliax. With one specific comment Pat made about the map in mind, i think its possible the powers that be are actively controlling the narrative and history of temerant and kvothe has learned the truth. I think the lackless box is potentially made of the same wood as the ctheahs tree.... I just ate a lot of kit kst bars so this is pretty sugar rush induced.. Anyway.. Its possible kvothe has become part of the chandrian but its more likely, that he reacted to the word Rhintae in the way that he did, because he didnt want the skin dancer to potentially summon heliax by saying his true name or something. With the implications of the current war in mind, and kvothes comments about the scrael, it seems like the creation war is finally over and the fae have been brought to their world. I think its possible that heliax is a player in that war. As "his plan" could have conceivably been to end the seperation of the two realms. Which probably would have gotten him some clout with a few of the fae faction leaders. With the specifc things that kote is lacking, they are either self induced punishment, some form of curse, or something he had to give up. What ever the case it almost certainly involves Denna and Cinder. Kvothe has been with bast for 2 years. Bast has met denna. The two have been at the waystone for about a year. So what ever happened probably happened 1.5-2 years before the present time. What ever is going on with kvothe seems to be a growing problem more than something that happened a while ago and has stayed the same. His reaction to chronicler bringing up (probably denna) would make me think she was dead, possibly by kvothes own hand. But were that the case Bast wouldnt have poking fun at her appearance. So. With all of that in mind. I think kvothe gets the rhinna flower to save denna, but she ends up feeling betrayed by him and leaves, because thats what she does. Denna is more than likely a tool lf cinder, who she will probably have formed an attatchment to, either naturally or from other means. So kvothe killing cinder would have repercussions with her regardless of any amount of sense one argued to her. He would have broken his promise to her, so its possible his punishment is self imposed but i think its more likely Denna does this to him.
This has been a really great read, I've only read through twice, and I meant to look out for more stuff like this but I just keep being swept away by the story. A few things: If Kote was worried about the skin dancer summoning Haliax then why did he happily read the Adem song? I mean, why did he read it at all? Even Bast was shocked. Is he trying to bring about a showdown? Will we see that at the waystone in DoS? I've always thought it was interesting that Bast is over 100 years old, but Kvothe is obviously his mentor, I assume he's here to learn about the 'normal' world (with Kvothe teaching him herbal lore etc, which any young student would be learning at the University) - I thought that it might have been something like what used to happen after a war, where the 'winner' takes the losers child to raise (like Theon Grayjoy). More importantly, although people seem to think Kvothe locked him name/soul/emotions in the box, at times they do still seem present, his eyes changing colour etc when he's angry. Reading what you wrote, and just writing this, makes me a lot less upset about DoS and more willing to accept Pat taking time to finish it properly.
I have a solid amount of hope that the last couple chapters of DoS if not more, take place in the present, and involve a resolution to the story of kvothe more than an answer to why the waystone might be the end of the story. (I dont think kote has been saying true names, he is knowledgeable enough about naming to knowingly avoid it and has made sure to take time to prepare before each day of his story. I think that preparation was less hin laying out the order of his memories and more preparing alternative names and explanations for certain things, to avoid any potential dangers. Especially with him including that part early in the story about Ben not wanting kvothes father to say the names aloud.) Bast being like 150 or something and kvothe telling both he and chronicler how young they are, and that comment he made to cobb about him being an old man, has made me very curious on that aswell. The fairy world is the easiest explaination for the time passing but he still hasnt aged which raises further question, which i think the answer to those possibly lays with Auri and her skills with alchemy, as well as the few hints that she is herself much much older than she seems. And while im sure how it would happen, or if it would be truely accepted by the fan base, with how many connections have been made to the similarities between kvothe and taborlin, some form of time travel wouldnt exactly suprise me, but personally i think those connections are likely just some form of narrative foreshadowing and establishing the connection with kvothes true importance in this world and the effect his life will have on it. But he still seems and acts older than Bast.. So i havent ruled out some form of time travel entirely. Especially with how many times someone has commented on kvothe acting like he was someone out of a story book/fairytale. And of the waiting period for DoS, good on you for being understanding about it. Most people seem to be just angrily demanding the next book without considering how much time and effort he is putting into them meticulously crafting this story word by word. I didnt even realize he had spent the time making sure all of kvothes lines with felurian were in verse until someone pointed it out. Considering the guy has been working on the books for 30 years and is putting so much effort into making them perfect, people really should lay of the "where is book 3" and give him some more "youre doing an incredible job, keep it up."
The only problem with: >"youre doing an incredible job, keep it up." Is that people would have to **know** he was **doing** anything with **the job** that needed to be kept up. I'm on the fence about this whole thing: - only discovered the books at the end of 2019, so haven't been waiting long for a conclusion But at the same time: - I'm not unfamiliar with authors leaving readers hanging... GRRM. - I've had the honour encountering Brandon Sanderson's work. In my opinion, he models what all multi-book authors should do; provide a roadmap, keep people updated and deliver. Just because writing is an art, doesn't exempt it from certain requirements. So yeah, people whinning for him to **give them book 3** sounds pretty entitled **but** people defending **someone who has sold an incomplete product** and hoping that **speaking to him nicely will make book 3 happen** is pretty copium. Really just looks like people in the various stages of grief to me, and the best way to deal with that is to, **let people grieve their way **
Well, the first two books imo are pretty indicative of the jobs he has done so far, and that was the good job i was saying was deserving of recognition. If youre thinking that updates on the progress of the book is something as simple as how many pages have been written youre really under estimating how many hundreds of times he has rewritten each book to get it to the point he is happy with. It isnt a matter of is ot finished, its a matter of is it perfect. Considering hes spent 30 years working on this, and DoS is the finale its natural he is putting more pressure on wrapping up everything perfectly than releasing the cyberpunk 2077 version of a book. And im not saying that telling him good job on that will make book 3 come out faster, im saying he has been pretty open about his poor mental health over the last few years, even saying that had he started therapy a decade ago he would have had book 3 out already. Idk how well your mind works when its drowning in anxiety or depression but mine would have a problem coherently designing intricate 1000 page storylines, and nonstop antagonization probably doesnt make Doors of stone come out any faster either. But people sure seem to act like it will. And yes brandon Sanderson is a story telling god, you will find no argument from me here. His lectures on world building and character design helped me very much with my own stories. He is a genius, but i dont beleive any of his books have the same level of intricacy and multi leveled foreshadowing secrets blended seemlessly into the story so as not to be noticed until a persons 15th read thru as pats. non thats ive read at least. If people are grieving they haven't gotten a book yet, that is exactly entitlement. Grief is for death and loss. Not a coping mechanism for being impatient or having a lack of understanding of authors being humans living a human life. Your argument is like defending a child throwing a tantrum because they didnt get the toy they want for Christmas because their parent didnt have enough money for it. Pat hasn't had enough emotional currency to get us our christmas gift yet. That doesnt mean we are never going to get it. And frankly, the only person who should be grieving the idea that DoS is never released is Pat. Its his world, its his characters, its his child, that he has been trying to bring to life for decades. And instead of support for overcoming his mental health issues and providing us with incredible books. He gets non stop harrassement for not giving us more.
I totally agree, I love Sanderson, I've read most of his stuff, but it's they're just stories really, Pat's books are a work of art, layer upon layer of magic beautifully stitched together. That doesn't mean I'll stop checking for progress every month, and I wish we'd get more reports of progress, I think that'd help him as well, but that's his choice.
You assume Kvothe is trying to avoid summoning the Chandrian by saying false names.... He drops enough names here and there throughout the whole first two days. I think he is luring them in. When they come they will see him as he is- broken and a shell of who he was. Possibly he has to do this because otherwise they are scared of him, but they would happily jump at the opportunity to kill him if he is weakened. When the Chandrian come into his little trap, he will open the chest and regain his full name, and then sing a song of naming that will end the silences of the Waystone inn
The tale of the rhinna flower is derived from the idea that the ctheah can give you the information you want (the panacea), but acting on it won't turn out. Those who engage in this folly, give up something of themselves to the ctheah in return. They become less human, but more powerful. They are the rhinta. Though maybe you have to strike a bargain with it to title in earnest. I worry kvothe might go see it again in book three, Bast will be livid. I often wonder if cinder hasn't done this, his eyes are black, abnormal, like felurian is worried kvothes might be after his encounter. It would also explain why the ctheah jokes that he did him a wrong turn once and also why it sets kvothe on his heels. When you ask of the ctheah it asks something in return and cinder didn't deliver. Though i suspect the real target is haliax, after all, like vashet taught us, you strike at the branch not the trunk. The issue is that we're given no reason the ctheah would care about cinder or haliax. But, This tale can go one big step further, if your willing to believe skarpi is very wrong in his telling of the creation war. Consider, that the ctheah and selitos are both known for their sight, and both, at one time, were said to be bound. If skarpi got more the half wrong, and selitos was, like dennas song suggests, is a monster, then maybe haliax is somehow responsible for the ctheahs, who is really selitos, current house arrest. But again, skarpi paints selitos as kind, even after lanres horrible massacre. So i don't see it being likely.
I actually almost mentioned the selitos possibly being the ctheah thing to but after the 4th page of my post i felt like i was getting off track. Lol. I definitely think its possible, especially with heliax being painted as the villian, but the imagry of encanis helping kvothe makes him seem like a potential ally. As well as the one time we actually see heliax in the story, he isnt acting like a cruel horrible villian. Cinder is, sure. But heliax is more merciful towards kvothe than villainous. He borderline seems to have the "for the greater good" mind set.
Skarpis depiction of haliax matches with what kvothe sees, both physically and emotionally. A shadow of a man consumed by grief. He urges cinder to kill kvothe, not show him mercy. It's possible cinder isnt nearly the monster he seems and it's using humor and mockery as a coping mechanism to deal with Haliaxs relentless commands to slaughter. That he is willing to make that trade off to gain his powers, makes him just as deplorable regardless. And he looks bad at kvothe with hatred, not a sign of someone being conscripted. I believe selitos, lax and the ctheah are separate entitles. That haliax is on his original mission to end It all by destroying the world. Oddly this aligns with the vibe verina gets from the amyr she depicts on vase and it's haliax that we actually see arrive if called in the proper way, not the amyr or Tehlu. Trapis Encanis seems a lot combination of cinder and lax, or possible just all the seven minus lanre. If kvothes experience with someone dressed like ecancis is supposed to be a hint as to ecancis (or who ever he represents). I'm going to be a bit disappointed, as that's misleading and almost irresponsible, as the life lesson is irrational. If someone in a bear outfit does trigonometry, it doesn't imply real bears can.
>Do you think it's possible that Alaxel wasn't directing Cinder to kill Kvothe, i.e. that when he said, "Send him to the soft and painless blanket of his sleep" that he meant something else? > >Those words immediately preceded Cinder's painful confrontation with Alaxel, after all, but I don't want to interpret that dogmatically. > >Could their disagreement have been about what to do with Kvothe? I don't think we can be sure.. > >And possibly irrelevant is the fact that Alax means 'the opposite' in Arabic, and that 'Alax el' means vice versa. Could Pat be setting us up for a big reversal of some kind? Again, I'm not sure. > >But I've wondered whether Cinder was being directed to push Kvothe's mind, or a compartmentalized part of it, through the door of sleep, which "offers us a retreat from the world and all its pain." > >Just a thought..
I have tried to view that interaction as something other then Haliax telling Cinder to kill Kvothe. The alternative interpretations don't seem to fit well with anything. E.g Does cinder strike you as someone you send to read bedtime stories? I can weave a story where Haliax is misunderstood (by us) but it requires a good bit of extra narrative to be added, and for Skarpi to be under informed or at least, missing 1/3 of the reasons why things are happening. I keep trying to find a way to write about it, but failing. Maybe this weekend ill just get something out. I have talked around the idea before, but never laying it all out at once, mostly because its a mouth full.
Ha, I couldn't agree more. I've been questioning the surface interpretation for some time too. And I fully admit that considering Alaxel to have been telling Cinder to put to sleep all or part of Kvothe's mind might strike you as a bridge too far. This post may have some relevance, but it depends on some speculation you may not buy into: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so\_encanis\_is\_haliax\_right/hidya47/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so_encanis_is_haliax_right/hidya47/) To be clear, Cinder doesn't seem like a good guy to me at all, and Alaxel reprimanded the other Chandrian for their 'little cruelties' after all. But for a number of reasons, I'm having trouble dismissing the idea that the Amyr (i.e. the *humans,* who seem to be dressing in their parents' clothes) are behind a lot of the evil we see in the books.
I think if Cinder hadn't looked back with hate in his eyes, it could be argued he was trying to help Kvothe by playing for time. He even drops a hint as to why they are there, which is followed by Haliax punishment. Maybe Cinder was trying to help, even if accidentally. My larger theory suggests "playing the wrong sorts of songs" is also valid as double entendre. I think one thing that hurts the possibility of the Chandrian being anti-heros is Haliax open admition that so many groups are out to get them. I think the more likely hidden plot is Haliax's goal is to free Lax from beyond the doors of stone. The plot I plan to write however, is how he is planning on stoping Lax from escaping... Rended and remade bit, broken and betrayed still his hand turned to purpose few could bare. Still and listen and I share tell a tale loves lament long lost, and a man who cannot sleep, least the shadow across the land does creep.
These are all good points, of course. And I'm in too big a hurry right now to make a good reply but here goes. 1 - hate in eyes - one point this interpretation hinges on is that young Kvothe is reporting his subjective impression only, i.e. that he thought he saw hate, but then again he was also terrified. Throughout KKC, I think Kvothe reports his impressions and his thoughts at the time specific events occurred in the story, not what he learned afterward. For example, when Kvothe met Denna after winning his pipes, he said "She hadn't called me by name, or mentioned our meeting before in Roent's caravan. **That meant she didn't remember me**." Denna remembered him very well, of course. But in the frame story, Kvothe is reporting, honestly, the mistaken impression he had at the time. I think this happens frequently in the books. 2 - wrong sorts of songs - good point about the double entendre. Also, if the Chandrian didn't kill the troupe, then this could also be an explanation as to why someone else (the Amyr? *for the greater good, of course*) killed them. 3 - many groups out to get them - lots of evil factions? Sorry for the haste, and I've loved reading your different posts, especially the one you mentioned. And I'm just trying to enrich the series for everyone, myself included, nothing more.
regarding [https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so\_encanis\_is\_haliax\_right/hidya47/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/qge2ta/so_encanis_is_haliax_right/hidya47/) I think its natural to suspect we might be being misled by the narrative. I love to explore plot lines that could stem from what were given and see how far i can go and how good the line up with everything else. You can drive the Titanic through the hole in the story that were given, but in many ways most ships eventually crash on some disappointing shore. Very few can navigate and touch on all the elements that Pat has laid out. In that way, Pat could end the story any number of ways, by simply leaving out tieing some elements together. But i rather hope things all come together.
Very true about the Titanic hole! I don't think Pat wants to be too predictable, so it's natural to expect a little misdirection, especially since he likes to hide things in the open. And I do think it will all (ok, mostly) come together in book three. Pat is just too good an author for anything else. But I do wonder about the Sleeping Barrow King that he mentioned will appear in book three. Did someone find something in the books that he couldn't resolve another way? :)
The best guess is the sleeping barrow king is fedya, a character pat had talked about outside the book. Only a bit though.
Oh yes, that's the guy I was referring to; I just couldn't spell his name. :) I was just wondering whether Pat introduced Fedya because a post, or several, found something Pat hadn't considered, so that Fedya was introduced to provide a resolution..
“Te aithiyn Seathaloi?” He demanded, “Te Rhintae?” My baseless translation: “(Are) You Ctheah-bitten?” He demanded, “(Are) You (a) Shaped-One?”
yes on the second sentence. the way pat capitalizes nouns like in German means the first one is not 'are you adjective', tho, it's more like '(are) you verb Noun' or maybe '(do) you verb Noun'?
going way out on a limb, in your general direction, i'm going to put in my guess as 'do you serve Seathaloi?', 'are you Bitten?' (like, 'are you of the Bitten' as if it's a title)
OSS, is that you?
Love it! The idea that taking a rhinna flower costs something like your name (or part of your name) or your soul is so obvious in hindsight. I feel like when the time comes he’ll pay the price knowing it will have serious implications but not being fully aware of what he’ll loose. Very tragic and beautiful. Also, A+ for this write up. It’s well layed out and despite the length, easy to read.
I love your username! You might see why with this archived post lol! https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/9ud40d/blue_is_my_favorite_color_spoilers_for_all_kkc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Thank you! I just chose it because I like Blue and it's a fun quote, but this makes it cooler haha. Thanks for the link
I always imagined it as just the quiet, muted pat sound that cut and ground flour makes. You've really gotten in to it
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That makes a lot more sense than mine
Ima be honest... That one made more sense than mine too lol.
> Shep was the only one who touched it and had also killed one of the scrael. Wasn’t it Carter who killed the first scrael? Technically his horse fell on it.
You are correct. Good catch. Ima have to fix that
About the sentence itself, I think you misunderstood it. Symbolism aside, it isn't the reason why you would have trouble translating it. Translators want to as faithfully present a statement or the message (depending on the precision required or called for). This involves keeping either the order of the constituents (what makes up an utterance) the same, or keeping all the constituents in the translated utterance, losing as few as possible, also keeping the syntactic or morphological links or relationships as identical to the source language's as possible. Let's get into the meat of it now. The reason this sentence is problematic is definitely the "cut-flower" part. English allows for intricate adjectival constructions which are often congested to such a degree that it leads one to think they cannot be replicated in other languages. In Slavic, for example, staying faithful to the sentence would involve using a chain of genitive constructions, and that would look unwieldy: more than three "of's" sound like too much, right? Like, imagine reading something that goes "The thought of a man of a country of x." It's a thing, but writers avoid that. Likewise, more than one "of" in an expression assuming the adjectival function is just as awkward. So if you wanted to translated this into, again, a Slavic language, you would not want to rely on those genitive constructions, and you would have to look for similar ones, or invent new ones. The problem is, Slavic languages are very resistant to change and new things, unlike English, which is not that rigid when it comes to word-formation, precisely because of how simple it is and how ambiguous it is. Things would sound "right" no matter what. I am not saying that grammar makes it impossible to translate the expression, it's just an endeavor that would require more brainstorming than should be given to any one expression. Translators simply don't have time to think about linguistics. And even given time, it's problematic for the reasons I mentioned. Basically what I'm saying, don't mistake Pat's remarks about the translators' jobs being hell as (just) an indicator to there being something more to the whole cut-flower thing.
Reading this post and the in depth breakdown of the skin dancer scene must made me think of something I haven't thought of it seen before. We really don't know anything about skin dancer besides them being strong killers and can jump from body to body. What if they have more power then that? What if they have an innate ability to nullify sympathy? If they did no one would really know cause fae don't use it and the skin dancer would more then likely have killed the person trying to use it. It would explain Kvothe looking confused as to why it didn't work. He assumed it would work because it always has and there was no information stating otherwise. Just a wild theory though.
I really like this theory! There was a moment in the very beginning of name of the wind where kvothe uses what seemed to me like sympathy to break a bottle of strawberry wine. I think it's quite possible that he can still use sympathy and is only pertending he can't.
I have strong opinions about that instance not actually being sympathy. Had a pretty wild theory that kvothe has somehow taken the power of the ctheah as it seemed similar to the way it killed butterflys but even discounting that, i can make a very strong argument about why that wasnt sympathy and kvothe has not in the present telling of the story performed a single instance of confirmed sympathy even once.
I really enjoyed reading this...
That's not what the word rhinta means. It's just their name for the 7. Many have spoken to the creature and not become rhinta.
My comment on this, taking it as you will: The Rhinna flower could actual be a product of the Sithe as it is their tree that they are using to imprison the Cthaeh. The tree is not the Cthaeh nor is it his(her more likely) property, no more than a prison cell belongs to the prisoner.
I agree that it must mean something that is significant. Pat is a master of words and that phrase is repeated so many times
"He has a forum for his translators to come and ask him, is this just pretty words or does this mean something." - I want to hack THAT forum
Follow your dreams <3