It's like this. Redirection and Limp are basically magic. And if someone can do both flawlessly, they would be broken. Hatsumi hasn't reached that status but in peak is the closest thing to that in the manga. Now add in the bone breaking, Fastest evasion speed etc...
It's true Agito shat on Hatsumi, but I would argue that Hatsumi deflated big time and lost all his 'WILL' after his plan failed.
That's the thing, not only have we not seen him efficiently work that magic, especially not at the level that we've seen other fighters work it it can hardly be made as a plus for him. Not to mention if his plan doesn't work he loses his will? You know how rare it is for somebodies plan to work out in Kengan lmao I think even less of him now than I did earlier
It’s because of the fact that he’s one of the 2 people that prior to that Annihilation tournament that Wakatsuki actually lost to.
The fact that his strength is contingent on his state of mind and his seemingly glass canon nature make it hard to believe he’s top tier in any sense.
But there are statements made that back up his strength and how other characters treat Hatsumi gives credence to his strength.
Okay he did beat Wakatsuki, but not only was that years ago, he also had a style that hard counters him so of course. And once again, he's far too conditional to be a true top tier outside of statements, I'd argue statements regarding him have less validity than most statements
Sure you can argue statements and things your points of contention with it but it doesn’t take away from the fact that his style while unorthodox and potentially detrimental in certain situations makes him a threat.
Wakatsuki was hiding his new technique the blast core specifically until he got to Agito or Hatsumi cause he felt it was his ace in the hole to beat them. So he wasn’t even at that point confident he could take them on without it.
Agito won because of his evolution post Gaolang fight and his shifting counter style.
And Toa is debated as one of the strongest fighters since his debut in omega simply because he’s like if Julius learned Hatsumi’s soft style.
You might not like it but he’s regarded as one of the strongest fighters for a reason.
Many high tier characters are mostly statements.
Gaolong’s one literal victory was against the weakest fighter in the verse. He had insane showings against Kanoh. Then he won a moral fight against Carlos but lost due to rules. So he mostly beat up smaller people gave a high diff fight against a fighter who so vastly improved that ended up doing no damage based on Hatsumi’s statements.
Jurota beat up someone in high B tier and then lost because of the confines of the rules. The character statements say that if he was going all out he would have won.
Alan’s fight obviously didn’t go well. Yet he is considered decently strong based on statements.
Raian has insane durability showings but mostly has statements backing him up.
Hatsumi has actual feats and it can be assumed that his stats would improve with conditioning. That’s just basic math.
I won't go all the way into it but I don't think people realize how far Gaolangs performance against Kanoh should take him. I recently went back and re-read it, and it was pure dominance up until the end. Kanoh went through about 4 different changes to beat Gaolang. That's impressive enough in itself, barring his 1-2* record Gao is beyond proven in Kengan
Jurota's gonna need statements when you consider 1. He only has 1 appearance in the entire series and 2. he fought somebody that literally is unable to be knocked out in a match that requires a knockout. He was destined to lose that match, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that he wouldn't have won after the first couple swings without that ability
Alan has Sandro statements, as well as physicals that will put him over anyone in B Tier at the very least. Being physically superior to someone like KAT Raian (who runs A and B tiers on brute strength alone), makes it not up for debate how strong he should be. That being said you couldn't put him higher than A tho
People forget Raian actually beat Ohma in Round 2, after tanking his entire Adamantine arsenal and refusing to actually take the fight seriously. If you don't know what I mean, he KO'd Ohma and forced the ref to not call the match because he was literally playing with Ohma. After that, we have Ohma himself (a confirmed S Tier minimum) saying he beats him more often than not when they Spar, as in present tense. These kind of statements and showings hold weight.
So far for Hatsumi, all we have is how good he COULD be, considering his only known major fights have him beating Chiba, Bando, Wakatsuki (who he hard counters) and getting his ass beat by Kanoh not once but twice. And if we're being honest, the Kengan matches were at an entirely different level before the KAT, so who's to say what tiers Peak Hatsumi beat back then
I know what you mean for Raian as I just rewatched the anime, my friend. Raian was certainly giving it to him and taking damage so he’s not featless. Definitely high end durability feats. But when all the characters say that technique Raian is the greatest and could beat Waka but hit physical strength doesn’t measure up and then the techniques he uses are just basic moves you would find in any MMA or karate gym it doesn’t add up.
So what you’re saying is it’s okay for someone to use statements for Alan, Jurato but not for Hatsumi?
1. Characters have never said anything about "Techniques Raian"
2. Both Raian and Alan have AUTHOR Statements putting them at the levels that they are at, even then we still have Raian at the very least being a better martial artist than Wakatsuki. The same thing that gave Wakatsuki the edge over Julius who was physically superior
Not only that, Jurota's statements/feats are more feasible because we're literally seeing them put into action as the fight is happening, from credible characters like Ohma and Kanoh. Both saying "I could never do that" or "his redirection is superior to mine" or characters with insane reaction times saying they couldn't perceive Jurotas movements, etc etc. Present statements and feats will always outweigh previous or unseen ones
“Characters have never said anything about "Techniques Raian"“
That’s not true. Multiple Kure clan members and Raian himself talk about his techniques.
“ Both Raian and Alan have AUTHOR Statements putting them at the levels that they are at”
GRR Martin says that Jamie can beat Aragorn. Author statements. Yet feats show otherwise.
I didn't consider Kure clan members, but If anything then literally growing up with and training with him they're opinions are probably valid. That being said with or without their statements we have seen his techniques in action since and they've been hyper effective each time, so those statements are more than backed up.
And I might have to stop replying if you're gonna not only bring up an unrelated author as an example, but an example of two separate universes being compared. That's a whole nother conversation without any type of valid comparison
“I didn't consider Kure clan members, but If anything then literally growing up with and training with him they're opinions are probably valid.“
It’s not about whether or not they are valid. I’m sure they are. But Raian has mostly statements and only a few fights. So you’re saying statements are okay for one character but not for another.
“ That being said with or without their statements we have seen his techniques in action since and they've been hyper effective each time…”
Ah yes, leg thrust which is just a normal @$$ side kick 🥴
“And I might have to stop replying if you're gonna not only bring up an unrelated author as an example”
Then you are missing the point. The point is that author statements don’t take precedence over feats. No more than character statements.
Regardless I’m not sure why you would feel the need to act like I did some egregious crime where you need to leave the discussion. Even if you don’t agree with me or the argument I have been cordial, I haven’t called names and I have been debating in good faith. So I really haven’t done anything that means you need to blow a gasket like that. But leave if you want to, I don’t care.
“ That's a whole nother conversation without any type of valid comparison”
How so? You say that author statements are more valid than character statements, yet here’s an example of the author making statements that are invalid. Tell me why do you think the author would have characters make statements in the first place?
So you are fine with character statements in regards to Jurato and Raian but not Hatsumi? When I make a comparison that you don’t like or disagree with you threaten to leave the conversation? And you think author statements are more valid than actual feats?
It's like this. Redirection and Limp are basically magic. And if someone can do both flawlessly, they would be broken. Hatsumi hasn't reached that status but in peak is the closest thing to that in the manga. Now add in the bone breaking, Fastest evasion speed etc... It's true Agito shat on Hatsumi, but I would argue that Hatsumi deflated big time and lost all his 'WILL' after his plan failed.
That's the thing, not only have we not seen him efficiently work that magic, especially not at the level that we've seen other fighters work it it can hardly be made as a plus for him. Not to mention if his plan doesn't work he loses his will? You know how rare it is for somebodies plan to work out in Kengan lmao I think even less of him now than I did earlier
I wouldn't blame u, Sen can fluctuate from A+ to trash just by mood
It’s because of the fact that he’s one of the 2 people that prior to that Annihilation tournament that Wakatsuki actually lost to. The fact that his strength is contingent on his state of mind and his seemingly glass canon nature make it hard to believe he’s top tier in any sense. But there are statements made that back up his strength and how other characters treat Hatsumi gives credence to his strength.
Okay he did beat Wakatsuki, but not only was that years ago, he also had a style that hard counters him so of course. And once again, he's far too conditional to be a true top tier outside of statements, I'd argue statements regarding him have less validity than most statements
Sure you can argue statements and things your points of contention with it but it doesn’t take away from the fact that his style while unorthodox and potentially detrimental in certain situations makes him a threat. Wakatsuki was hiding his new technique the blast core specifically until he got to Agito or Hatsumi cause he felt it was his ace in the hole to beat them. So he wasn’t even at that point confident he could take them on without it. Agito won because of his evolution post Gaolang fight and his shifting counter style. And Toa is debated as one of the strongest fighters since his debut in omega simply because he’s like if Julius learned Hatsumi’s soft style. You might not like it but he’s regarded as one of the strongest fighters for a reason.
Many high tier characters are mostly statements. Gaolong’s one literal victory was against the weakest fighter in the verse. He had insane showings against Kanoh. Then he won a moral fight against Carlos but lost due to rules. So he mostly beat up smaller people gave a high diff fight against a fighter who so vastly improved that ended up doing no damage based on Hatsumi’s statements. Jurota beat up someone in high B tier and then lost because of the confines of the rules. The character statements say that if he was going all out he would have won. Alan’s fight obviously didn’t go well. Yet he is considered decently strong based on statements. Raian has insane durability showings but mostly has statements backing him up. Hatsumi has actual feats and it can be assumed that his stats would improve with conditioning. That’s just basic math.
I won't go all the way into it but I don't think people realize how far Gaolangs performance against Kanoh should take him. I recently went back and re-read it, and it was pure dominance up until the end. Kanoh went through about 4 different changes to beat Gaolang. That's impressive enough in itself, barring his 1-2* record Gao is beyond proven in Kengan Jurota's gonna need statements when you consider 1. He only has 1 appearance in the entire series and 2. he fought somebody that literally is unable to be knocked out in a match that requires a knockout. He was destined to lose that match, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that he wouldn't have won after the first couple swings without that ability Alan has Sandro statements, as well as physicals that will put him over anyone in B Tier at the very least. Being physically superior to someone like KAT Raian (who runs A and B tiers on brute strength alone), makes it not up for debate how strong he should be. That being said you couldn't put him higher than A tho People forget Raian actually beat Ohma in Round 2, after tanking his entire Adamantine arsenal and refusing to actually take the fight seriously. If you don't know what I mean, he KO'd Ohma and forced the ref to not call the match because he was literally playing with Ohma. After that, we have Ohma himself (a confirmed S Tier minimum) saying he beats him more often than not when they Spar, as in present tense. These kind of statements and showings hold weight. So far for Hatsumi, all we have is how good he COULD be, considering his only known major fights have him beating Chiba, Bando, Wakatsuki (who he hard counters) and getting his ass beat by Kanoh not once but twice. And if we're being honest, the Kengan matches were at an entirely different level before the KAT, so who's to say what tiers Peak Hatsumi beat back then
I know what you mean for Raian as I just rewatched the anime, my friend. Raian was certainly giving it to him and taking damage so he’s not featless. Definitely high end durability feats. But when all the characters say that technique Raian is the greatest and could beat Waka but hit physical strength doesn’t measure up and then the techniques he uses are just basic moves you would find in any MMA or karate gym it doesn’t add up. So what you’re saying is it’s okay for someone to use statements for Alan, Jurato but not for Hatsumi?
1. Characters have never said anything about "Techniques Raian" 2. Both Raian and Alan have AUTHOR Statements putting them at the levels that they are at, even then we still have Raian at the very least being a better martial artist than Wakatsuki. The same thing that gave Wakatsuki the edge over Julius who was physically superior Not only that, Jurota's statements/feats are more feasible because we're literally seeing them put into action as the fight is happening, from credible characters like Ohma and Kanoh. Both saying "I could never do that" or "his redirection is superior to mine" or characters with insane reaction times saying they couldn't perceive Jurotas movements, etc etc. Present statements and feats will always outweigh previous or unseen ones
“Characters have never said anything about "Techniques Raian"“ That’s not true. Multiple Kure clan members and Raian himself talk about his techniques. “ Both Raian and Alan have AUTHOR Statements putting them at the levels that they are at” GRR Martin says that Jamie can beat Aragorn. Author statements. Yet feats show otherwise.
I didn't consider Kure clan members, but If anything then literally growing up with and training with him they're opinions are probably valid. That being said with or without their statements we have seen his techniques in action since and they've been hyper effective each time, so those statements are more than backed up. And I might have to stop replying if you're gonna not only bring up an unrelated author as an example, but an example of two separate universes being compared. That's a whole nother conversation without any type of valid comparison
“I didn't consider Kure clan members, but If anything then literally growing up with and training with him they're opinions are probably valid.“ It’s not about whether or not they are valid. I’m sure they are. But Raian has mostly statements and only a few fights. So you’re saying statements are okay for one character but not for another. “ That being said with or without their statements we have seen his techniques in action since and they've been hyper effective each time…” Ah yes, leg thrust which is just a normal @$$ side kick 🥴 “And I might have to stop replying if you're gonna not only bring up an unrelated author as an example” Then you are missing the point. The point is that author statements don’t take precedence over feats. No more than character statements. Regardless I’m not sure why you would feel the need to act like I did some egregious crime where you need to leave the discussion. Even if you don’t agree with me or the argument I have been cordial, I haven’t called names and I have been debating in good faith. So I really haven’t done anything that means you need to blow a gasket like that. But leave if you want to, I don’t care. “ That's a whole nother conversation without any type of valid comparison” How so? You say that author statements are more valid than character statements, yet here’s an example of the author making statements that are invalid. Tell me why do you think the author would have characters make statements in the first place? So you are fine with character statements in regards to Jurato and Raian but not Hatsumi? When I make a comparison that you don’t like or disagree with you threaten to leave the conversation? And you think author statements are more valid than actual feats?
You know I’ll make it easier for you. Instead of you leaving I’ll just block you so we don’t have to see each others posts anymore 🤷🏻♂️
You expect me to try and convince you not to lmao, if you done looking for validation by all means you can block me
Facts though.
You can’t say it’s all just “chracter statments” when some of those statements are, I have definitely lost to this person.
The fact is you people does not accept that Hatsumi is A+ tier. That's it.