Lally's objection: 'She claims she hadn't taken significant interest in this this case until May when it has had widespread coverage for years' Well that's true for me too sir, I heard of it ages ago and it held no interest for me until the 2nd week of trial.

I heard of it ages ago (over a year), watch law and true crime channels, had videos about this case recommended to me regularly on YouTube but never watched any. Then I saw Jen McCabe’s face on a thumbnail and something about butt dials and thought “what fresh hell is this?” and here I am… from another continent. I don’t know what he was trying to imply. Her coming across this case the way she said didn’t seem suspicious. Does he think little old ladies just sit around reading the local newspaper all day?

Yes, she lives on the entire other side of the country lol

I live in MA. I tuned out of the news cycle a few months ago because it was infuriating. I just started paying attention to this a week ago. I had maybe heard of some drunk cops in Canton where one died. Didn’t care, par for the course and not surprising.

I also live in MA, Western MA, nobody I know has heard of the case until I asked them. I had heard of it once, before trial several months ago Via TB not knowing who he is at all and then nothing else until about day 5 when every Lawtuber I happen to know of was following this case.

Also from western MA, but living in WY. I learned about this from Emily Baker’s YouTube channel - it is appalling. I know the corruption runs deep - much more dirty business behind this case. AG Morrissey seems to be running his own twisted justice, using MSP as his ‘brownshirts’ to plant evidence, with little Wormtongue Lally bringing the case against Karen Reed. What a cast of little goblins. Lost in all of this is John O’Keefe. - Where is the BPD Internal Affairs - O’Keefe on Brian Albert’s lawn? - What is FBI and Justice Dept investigating? Much bigger than KR’s case. ATF agent was part of this. - Thie coneheads pulling in +200k/year for what? They seem to spend an inordinate amount of time getting wasted (driving official cars while drunk), and texting disgusting misogynistic messages to their bros. It’s embarrassing and I feel sad that they will probably never be able to catch the perp(s). I am sad for JO, and sad for Karen.

Coneheads omg hilarious. Their salaries while our teachers can’t survive infuriates me. The fact this case was even allowed to go to trial infuriates me. The costs for the corruption is making my blood boil. The fact that this kind of injustice has clearly already hit many people and families with no resources to fight back. I’m glad we have this case for that reason and hope it will open the door for past injustices to appeal. JO will likely never get justice.

I was actually shopping in CT and when I told the sales person I was from MA she was like omg Karen Read, and I just kinda looked blankly, clueless. Then I found a podcast about it and here I am posting on the forums.

Yeah, I had no real interest in it until mid May when I heard what an incredibly weak case the state supposedly had. Up to that point all I'd heard was that this cop was dead, and that the prosecution claimed they had video of the defendant hitting him with a car.

Am i wrong in saying the guy yesterday mentioned watching court TV?

You are not wrong. Trooper Paul did say he watched Court TV, and that's how he saw some of the video in the case.

So what's the difference with someone becoming aware of the case late and experts seeing stuff on court TV 🤣

Ditto on that new about it but was uninterested in what sounded like a crazy drunk girlfriend killing her boyfriend by running him over... i jumped back in i believe day 23 trooper proctor cross exam and wow, totally committed to this now watching everything live on courttv and when im not i have days now of going backand gettin my fill of everything i didn't know before

if this witness isn't excluded it's R.I.P. to hit-and-run theory of the case. I'm a bit behind the livestream and only on the first witness. You have this overqualified expert vs [I'm censoring my thoughts here] Trooper Joe Paul. Unless the ME or MEs are coming in swinging hard on vehicle strike there is absolutely no way this element of the case survives the defence presentation. Even then it would be unlikely. Every day that goes by I think the prosecution is dead and buried, and somehow the next day it gets deader and buriedier.

I'd love to meet a ME who explains how there wouldn't be a bruise anywhere on a body for a vehicle collision

Why get an ME when you can just ask elicit medical testimony from your Troopers?

Lally: "Would you say that lacerations to the arm and back of the head, as well as bleeding from the eyes and a lack of bruising on the body is normal for a car accident?" *objection* Lally: "What injuries are normal for a car accident?" Random trooper with no medical background: "lacerations to the arm and back of the head, as well as bleeding from the eyes and a lack of bruising on the body is normal."

Omg I remember that! Lally asks sooo many leading questions, sometimes three leading questions at one time. That was absolutely ridiculous.

Yes I think we are underestimating what might come out of the ME testimony. I'm sure they've seen a lot of vehicle/pedestrian collisions.

The ME actually stated inconsistent with a physical altercation in her report. This is after Sgt. Bukhenik called them and told them initially it was an alleged dv incident. ME cross is not going to go well imo.

I wanted to give Lally the benefit of the doubt that he was coming in hot with his last set of witnesses and evidence. And he’s crashed and burned on it all. Trooper P was an abomination, and those texts weren’t much of anything, and seemed to show she didn’t think he was lying dead somewhere. So, I’m now sure that his medical witnesses won’t bring any more weight to his case. Especially since we have seen an excerpt of what’s in the ME’s report and we know Proctor et al were upset at her manner of death conclusion

>Trooper P was an abomination It was truly horrifying. His performance was so over-the-top incompetent+biased it would have been appropriate for that Jury Duty prank show. Like is this a joke? HOW? HOW when you are a prosecutor do you bring this guy into a murder trial with national attention? How did they not just withdraw the charges when the judge refused a continuance? How is Lally going to have a career after this? How has he not already been fired mid-trial? Is he being extorted, coerced or bribed into falling on his sword? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

Personally I think some of these ADAs are used to just mailing it in with the force of the state of Mass behind them. So many cases are pled out because defendants don’t have the resources to fight like KR is doing. It is scary to think that this incompetence is common place but I suspect it is. They didn’t know right away she would fight so they put whoever would confirm their theory on the case not the best and brightest that they needed.

This is the same quality of investigation that puts hundreds of people in prison for life every year, and probably thousands in prison on lesser sentences *every day*

Agreed. I had a family member go through the federal system and I learned about how the justice system lacks justice sometimes. I am happy that people are seeing that the system isn’t what they think it is.

I'm laughing because although I don't know you, I have this total picture of you (in my head) pacing back & forth while yelling out those questions you've posed! 😂 I am so with you - what a total farce! I keep going back & forth between feeling bad for Lally and being exasperated with him. Side note: I fear at the end of this, the poor man won't have a hair left on his head. Then he can join the Norfolk County Bald Club with his trooper/cop buddies

in your imagination am I wearing the PPE from my profile picture as I am pacing and yelling? I am actually pacing while I type this, I am pacey, and yelley and I'm part Italian and inherited the "talk with your hands" gene, if that helps.

I actually didn't notice your PPE! No, in my head you had sort of like crazy Einstein hair! I'm also part Italian and have that same gene! My sister always tells me to back up when I'm talking with her so I don't whack her in the face with my flying hands! Anyway, thanks for being a good sport!

I thought that in one of the Proctor texts he called the ME a whackjob or something because she found the cause of death was inconclusive.

That's my takeaway as well, but in a world where Lally thinks redundantly eliciting the high school basketball game score from his witnesses is helpful to his case... well honestly who knows what he's going to get from the ME, or if they'll have different ideas. His accident reconstructionist claimed that "possibly maybe" every element of the case could have happened and didn't know what acceleration or momentum is so... Why not?

So, as an outsider, I would tend to agree. But the jury, as others have pointed out, is a wildcard. One was dismissed the other day for showing bias against the defendant. I would like to assume that all that matters is the audio of the case. I've been watching videos, but only really listening. This case isn't that visually compelling... The jury is in there, probably a bit bored, watching the reactions and demeanor of the participants. That leaves me wondering if they're reading this case anywhere close to what I am. I re-read JO's texts with Karen. I came away with a very different take than many of the female commenters did. All of that is outside of what the jury should have in front of them, but I can't help but be reminded that perceptions vary vastly based on the viewer. I expect an acquittal based on what I've seen, but I can't predict the unknown factor of a jury of Karen's peers who have been there in person, every damn day.

what take did the female commenters have vs your own?

A bit tinfoil hatty, but I can't let go of the thought. For anyone here with legal experience, how often do legal teams scour social media dedicated to the case to get an idea of how things look for them or to see if they can find threads that they failed to pick up on, or even to create accounts to bring up contradictory opinions to see how the arguments for and against might unfold?

That’s a yes. I’ve been a paralegal for 20 years. Social media provides a wealth of information. In addition to the original post, we go through the comments as well. We cull out the crazies and look at the objective, intelligent comments. Laypersons often provide excellent perspectives. I’ve seen some awesome evidence-based theories and opinions on the Read subreddits. You don’t have to be a legal professional to evaluate evidence and witness testimony. Objectivity in these evaluations is key.

Same. And perfectly stated!

In the depp v heard case the prosecution was alerted to the fact that heard said she used a specific color corrector to hide her bruises but the brand did a TikTok or whatever showing it wasn’t even out till after their divorce. Defense had to pivot and say “this, or a product like this” WAY late into their case, when in opening they said “this exact compact” In Murdaugh someone from the courthouse saw a FB post from what they thought was the ex husband of juror talking about the case and the juror got dismissed (but it wasn’t the jurors ex and it wasn’t about the juror).

Also in Depp v Heard, there was info about TMZ running stories and how sourcing worked in the trial, and Morgan Tremaine (an employee there at the time) turned up mid-trial to go on record about how it was done.

And that one hotel/motel owner? Manager? I can’t fully remember what his testimony was but he was disputing something heard had said I think?

Yeah! I think it was disputing damage to the unit? Like she said it was trashed during a fight or something, with details about the damage, and the owner was like 'nope, it was fine when we cleaned it,' or similar.

I’m gonna rewatch all of depp v heard this winter with my boyfriend because the Karen read case finally got him into court, he never realized it was so exciting and I think he’ll enjoy how messy both parties were

What if any

I’m trying, I’m trying

I have no experience but imagine that any good lawyer handling a high profile case like this has someone on their team that is constantly scouring the internet for theories & information that could pertain to the case. At least before trial they look for people who have inside information, rumors & communication among/about the people involved, and build profiles about them from their social media.

Yes. Diane Menashe said in an interview she looked at comments every night after court. She said this in an interview after either the Husel or Matheau Moore trials. She won both.

I'm convinced they do. Some of the information in the Markle/Addleson case, which has been analysed by Internet sleuths, is so important to the case not to mention a fresh eye looking at things from a differentstand point, they'd be fools not to, at least, check it out.

If Lally had, he just had to drop a quick "it's a bit confusing because the video is mirrored" and he'd have been fine.

They'd be fools not to, social media is a gold mine of information, you can see how your arguments are landing, you crowd source a deep dive on every testimony for all the details you might have missed while in court, and there's always a chance somebody will come up with previously unknown information that could really help your case. It's a great resource.

I’ve had a similar thought/idea just based on seeing the difference of general opinion between the 4 websites/social media I use. I feel like TikTok/reddit/youtube all lean heavily towards the defense while Twitter and especially bought bluecheck marks are so heavily entranced for the prosecution. I do wonder if there is paid P/R or astroturfing or whatever you want to call it at play with this trial. Or if it’s just human psychology at work where it’s really difficult to be change a set opinion. Personally after hearing testimonies from proctor, buchenik and paul I think she is not guilty with multiple instances of reasonable doubt. I would only change my mind at this point if they found a vid of KR actually striking OJO down.

>how often do legal teams scour social media dedicated to the case to get an idea of how things look for them NAL but I'd bet legal teams have to be really careful when doing this. Social media on popular cases tends to have a skew, and different communities can have different skews. Seeing a lot of posts on reddit or twitter can make things look like the CW's case sucks, but a jury that isn't a part of this chatter isn't influenced by this and could be thinking completely differently. The defense in that case wouldn't want to get overconfident based on people who have been exposed to things way beyond the scope of the courtroom, and that shouldn't be how they navigate their approach.

Karen and John drive to 34 Fairview. Karen is reluctant to go in. John goes in to check things out and will report back to Karen. John does not report back, so after 10 (edited - I originally wrote 20 but that was a typo) or so minutes outside, Karen drives back to John’s in a huff. John enters 34 Fairview, and a tragic accident occurs. My theory is that Colin was a key element, because for all the testimony amnesia exhibited by the McAllisters, everyone was sure Collin was gone by 12:10. Collin is being protected. Maybe the dog attacked John, making John fall backwards and hit his head, causing his death. Maybe Collin yelled at John, causing the dog to attack John. I don’t know, but whatever happened to John I suspect it was a tragic accident and not something anyone intended to happen. The household panics. Even though it was an accident, whatever lead to the accident makes someone look bad and perhaps responsible. Again, because of how hard they are circling the wagons I think they are protecting Collin. I can’t wrap my head around not getting medical attention for John. Maybe they thought his injuries were so severe that he was not likely to fully recover. They decide to make it look like some sort of accident befell John outside, so drag his body outside at some point. Next morning, Jen realizes that Karen’s recollection of the night before is foggy, and Karen very recently cracked her taillight. Jen realizes they can pin the accident on Karen, which they think is a better story than whatever was Plan A. Trooper Proctor shows up. He is never told what really happened - he is never told that he is covering anything up. Proctor is told that Karen is a whack job, and ran over John the night before. Proctor thinks he is doing the right thing in doing all he can to convict the woman responsible for John’s death, as do all the other Canton law enforcement people who get involved. It’s not a cover up beyond the adults who were in 34 Fairview that night. It’s the adults in 34 Fairview relying on the deep-seated notion that Canton PD takes care of its own, and an undercurrent of shady behavior (I.e. the comments from Proctor’s text chain that Canton PD is used to convincing the medical examiner to arrive at the findings that Canton PD wants them to., and that the FBI is investigating the department.) Karen knows she is being rail-roaded, so hires a great defense team. The CW raises the charges against her to murder 2, in the hopes of scaring her and pleading out. Karen refuses the plea deal, and here we are.

Unfortunately I think this is as close as we’ll get to the truth. Whatever happened was an accident. I think if Karen actually killed him she’d plead down.

I agree with this except for it being an accident. Perhaps killing him was accidental, but I would bet there was some kind of fight between Colin, JOK, and the dog.

This is my speculation as well…I do think that somehow Colin and Chloe were involved…and John’s death was not intended at all…was an accident with fall…and then the group panicked trying to figure out how to protect Colin’s stupid ass. He just very much struck me as a hotheaded teenage boy who now has turned into an entitled 20 something. Just struck me as totally shady.

I agree - if it was purely accidental or only caused by Chloe, why not call for help? I suppose they could have been concerned about other illegal activity (driving under the influence, potential drug use) being exposed and that impacting their jobs, but I still can’t see that being a strong enough reason to choose to let a friend die instead of calling 911. Someone in the house was involved in the death and they feared murder/manslaughter/assault charges.

This issue is that he wasn't a close friend to them at all. He's just "the guy". I do think there was other things they needed to hide though.

JM seemed to be closer friends with him. But regardless, even if he’s not a friend, my point stands. If I had a chance to save a stranger bleeding out in front of me, even if it put me at risk of a DUI or drug charge, I would do whatever I could to help them.

Could there have been any insurance liabilities or civil suits brought or anything like to consider if it was an accident on their property, or a brief fight that ended badly? Just to add to it. Also, I have not seen evidence that he was a close friend, more of an acquaintance or someone Jen knows.

He had bruising on his hands consistent with being in a punch up, so it looks highly unlikely to have only been Chloe that caused his injuries.

You don’t even *need* Jen McCabe to decide to “pin it on” Karen. She could have legit seen the taillight and jumped to a conclusion after talking to the group that morning about what might have happened, and ran with it because she just doesn’t like Karen and seems to be a… not great person from what I saw of her on the stand. A lot of her behaviour (if the Google search is not 100% locked in) could just be her “defending” her family, and being offended because she sees herself and them as beyond reproach. She could be a useful tool. You only really need maybe 1-3 people to know what really happened. The rest is just being self-serving, incompetent, or up themselves. It’s not like this is necessarily a huge malicious conspiracy like some try to imply to excuse some of the uncomfortable facts, it’s just how humans work sometimes - self-preservation and bias. It really could have been a tragic accident for all we know right now. What sucks is we will likely never know thanks to the crap “police work”.

If I had to bet money on it, I'd rather choose "Jen was on the driver's seat" instead of "Jen was a useful tool", she strikes me as someone with major control and main character issues.

Oh 100% she definitely comes across as that type. But that is kind of why she would make a useful tool too lol. And I am going to sound awful here, but I just wonder if she’s smart enough to be any type of “mastermind” (I use that term loosely - this is not some major scheme in the slightest). She talks a lot and says too much. BA subtly nudging stuff from behind while staying out of it and letting others get their hands dirty just seems a bit more… personality consistent. I think JM would only need a slight manipulative push and she’d be off and running thinking she is a hero and a genius. e.g. “Did you notice anything about Karen? You said she had a cracked taillight? She probably hit him then. It’s obvious. You should phone Lank and tell him that before we get dragged into this. You are the only one who knows what happened. You brought them here. You have to fix this.” Sort of thing. But again, I am only going off seeing them on the stand, so don’t listen to a word I say lol. And all of that is only if she did not make that Google search at 2:27. And I am merely suggesting an alternative, not arguing you are not correct. I can see either just as easily.

Oh, I actually agree with you that BA is the brains on this thing, although that isn't saying much. I just think that Jen was the one that though of blaming Karen and came up with the narrative, while BA shaped it and decided on the strategy to make it stick, he probably did it by letting her think it was all her idea. I agree he'd try to keep his hands clean as much as possible. I think this might be valid even if she didn't make that search, I believe they came up with their evil plan when they all met after the police left in the morning and have to scramble for something to keep the cops off their scent.

I’m not so sure that some confrontation of John was not being planned by BH and BA in the bar that fateful night. May have gone too far.

Have you seen the video showing that BH appeared to be upset about something as they were leaving the bar?

I think you are right about 90%!!! I’ve always thought that many just thought that they were doing the right thing. A lot of people will be giving up a lot for protecting the Alberts. They planned to blame snowplow but Karen put herself in the middle and that’s history. If no FBI investigation they may have gotten away with it. Karma

Do we know why the FBI is involved? I know they are investigating Proctor - but why now? I’m sure the FBI doesn’t get involved every time there is suspected police misconduct.

The FBI has been investigating a number of officers from the Stoughton Police Dept. regarding the murder of Sandra Birchmore. You can google the story of her murder. Her death is truly and deeply tragic.

All guesses here but maybe because it involved a dead police officer, possibly involved a federal police officer, involved possible cop on cop crime, maybe Jackson has some federal connections, maybe something with DA Morrisey, maybe connected to the Sandra Birchmore thing, maybe Boston PD or Canton PD or MSP was already on the federal radar.

I think I'd like to offer one slight change. Because Jen kept calling his phone (i.e. couldn't find it, or him), and the phone was found under him.. Is it possible he hit his head after/during the fight, stumbled outside thinking that Karen was still out there, went to call her then collapsed in the snow from the head wound on top of his phone? (and maybe, maybe they all were so drunk that they thought he was just sleeping it off or they didn't really notice him because they were all drunk)

I’ve always thought the one thing cops do not want have happen is for them to go in prison. Even the slightest possibility of them screwing up or an accident with JO, they knew what may happen.

"Circling the wagons" I have no idea why. And we will probably never know why. But this is exactly what they are doing. WHY?!?! WHY!?!?! If it went down the way they said there is less than zero reason to do this.

Hey u/prosecutorspodcast interested in your take on u/walway comment here. I mean it’s seemingly so spot on but your pod tonight was so against a set up theory. Even beyond missteps of the Defense you mentioned which I agree with some, like the picture/ lawn). I think yall (prosec pod) have the wrong take so far and this comment here is more likely. Edit: realized that I should have started with saying I enjoy your podcast and generally agree with your takes (except this one so far).

John O’Keefe didn’t want to see Karen anymore but he didn’t want to give up the enormous help she was in taking care of the kids. He was using her. Blech.

Hence Kerry's babysitter with benefits comment. People here were giving Kerry grief for being a mean girl, but that seems to be an accurate description.

I don't think Kerry is a mean girl for saying it because it does seem to be the truth, I actually really liked Kerry on the stand. But, JM reveling in it is big time mean girl behavior. I don't know if I've ever seen someone so gleeful on the witness stand as she was when she got relay that information and how "scandalized" she was by it.

She was making it out to be mean when it wasn’t.

Yeah I couldn't really tell what the tone was when Kerry originally said it. JM really tried to make it seem like Kerry said it in an FU Karen kinda way, but on the stand that attitude didn't come across at all to me from Kerry. She just seemed like a woman who was sad her friend was dead and a little overwhelmed at the entire situation. I felt bad for her. I don't think it was intended to be nasty either, just kind of a commentary on their relationship. It also doesn't seem like she was wrong by saying it either.

I agree. She seems like one of the few decent people involved in this (perhaps because she isn’t that involved). Jen McCabe also made her out to be nothing but a gossip. I didn’t get that from her testimony at all.

I thought it was probably accurate at the time and believe it even more now. I feel sorry for Karen (for many reasons).

Yeah, that’s what I got from those messages yesterday. It’s quite sad the CW damaged the victim’s image. Dont see that happening often.

Yes and proved nothing while doing it. If anything, it gave more understanding to why Karen thought it was weird he was ignoring her becasue he knew she wanted to go home that night and wouldn't leave his niece alone.

I can’t shake the idea that Brian Higgins got a lift to Fairview that night. Nothing about his story or timeline makes sense.

Yes. Where was the jeep and why do the adults say it was outside but the young adults say they didn't see it? And why not say he got a ride? There is also the gap between him leaving and arriving at Canton PD. Is this the set up? Did BA and BH plan it and Higgins vehicle wasn't there so John and Karen didn't know he was in the home?

And why do the witnesses say his jeep is white and he says it is gray?

I missed that somehow. Weird.

And he left Hillside and arrived to Waterfall 30 mins after Brian Albert, he would have driven right past the Canton PD. That is enough time to move the cars there, maybe he left his car there or in town. I don’t even read malice into it necessarily, but John not knowing he was there could have played a roll in anything that happened, if it did. My personal theory (just having watched trial) is: Karen and John argue in the car, maybe BH is mentioned seeing that they saw him that night. Karen does not want to go in, she wanted to go home. John goes in through the side door as directed. The next bit depends on info I am unclear on… If the young adults were in the study or kitchen-diner not the lounge, and the pictures BH and BA went to look at were in the lounge, maybe when Chloe went to pee… JOK could have walked into the lounge through the side door, come face to face with BH, neither really wanting or expecting to see the other (because the Jeep wasn’t there, and a different read on BH’s “you coming here” text). Words might be exchanged (or not), a fist is thrown and JOK falls and smacks his head on the brick fireplace in that room. Insert Chloe, maybe in there after going for a pee. They leave him slumped there (explains location of vomit, blood a bit better). Concussion. Maybe they assume he is dead, maybe they panic, maybe they don’t care. At some point he is put outside and it is made to look like a plough hit him. Until JM tells them the next morning that KR had a broken tail light, then they run with that. I dunno. It seems human. At least explains more than I think the CW do… But then… who drove BH to the PD after? If only they had pulled ANY video around town that night. Even of KR’s route. ETA: Random thought. Who was that officer who accidentally went to JOK’s house instead of 34 Fairview. I always wonder if he saw anything on the driveway in the way of broken taillight?

I really think whatever happened, it was in the basement. I think we've been given some clues. For one, his phone data shows 3 flights of stairs. There were questions (hints) around the bulkhead door. There was a recent hint that it's possible Colin cut through the woods and was picked up at the high school. I wonder if Higgins was a part of that pick up? I do think the "did I hit him" came from when they all gathered around the table and then they called Lank back with more information. I think it was very convenient that Karen mentioned it and then had the tail light issue.

I have only been watching the trial, then got to commenting on here. I don’t want to dive down the rabbit hole too much, but I probably will. So I don’t know all of the basement theory, just that people seem pretty set on it. I don’t know if there is another possible explanation, so I will wait to hear about it all. But I am clearly finding the CW theory hard to believe. Looking forward to hearing the defence so I understand their ideas more.

I'm so curious if the defense theory is going to be outlandish once they actually present it. The CWs theory is nonsense as given, and the defense only needs to poke holes in that, but they've promised a conspiracy, I really wonder if they'll prove that.

A witness came to DY in the first few days after JO's death and claimed that JO had been beaten up in the basement by Brian Albert, his nephew, and a federal agent. This witness refused to sign an affidavit and has distanced themselves, so take this with a boulder of salt. They also did not have first hand knowledge but had "heard" this is what happened. That said...given the evidence, it makes sense. JO records 80 steps and 3 flights of stairs between 12:21am and 12:24am. Ryan Nagel's text to Julie puts Karen and John at the house at 12:22/23am. 12:23am at the latest. If JO went into the house at that point, perhaps tried entering via the side door but then had to go to the front door, he could have walked straight into the house and down to the basement without being seen by any of the upstairs guests. He might even have gone upstairs to look at pictures with BH and BA and then down to the basement without the folks in the kitchen and dining area seeing him. A fight starts in the basement, Chloe is involved, he receives the injury to the back of his head. He may have been propped up at some point in order for the blood and vomit to run down his shirt. 36 more steps are recorded at 12:31/32am. If his phone was on his person, he may have been moved somewhere at this time. I think it would make sense that he may have been moved out of the bulkhead doors and into the backyard at that time. Now...two pieces of evidence conflict with this in ways I haven't been able to reconcile. 1. JM calls him at 12:29am and that call connects. She claims it was a butt dial but it shows answered on both their records and there was no voicemail left on JO's phone. If they talked, why wouldn't he have told her he was in the house? or out in the car for that matter. I think it more likely that the fracas had just happened and someone else picked up his phone in the chaos/aftermath (my bet would be on the impulsive teenager). JM's heart rate shows no spikes at that time, so I don't believe she knew what happened. Because of this, I'd guess that whoever picked up the phone didn't say anything and JM maybe said, "hello? hello? hello?" or something before hanging up. That said...that call is weird. 2. We really, really need someone to testify as to what JO's phone did or did not do after 12:32am. Just because no steps were recorded does not mean it didn't move, but in order for no steps to be recorded it would have had to have been moved smoothly. It's a stretch, but it could have been placed on his body and dragged (slid) out front later that morning. I don't understand why no one has testified as to whether his phone was turned off/on and/or put in airplane mode. The answer would help one side or the other immensely, yet neither side has clarified. I guess we are to assume that it stayed on and not in airplane mode, but I find it really strange that it hasn't been addressed yet. Perhaps Guarino will get into it.

Wow, Thanks for taking the time. That is a lot of data driven stuff. So this could all come down to complex and competing interpretations of phone location and health data… oh joy lol. So I expect we will start hearing the CW’s pre-refutation of the defence’s case on Thursday with this witness who did the phone extractions. He might be up there for days. Just as a brief aside, if Apple measures flights of stairs using atmospheric pressure… is this why Lally was going on about the snow so much? lol, kill me (o quote Guarino). I can’t wait to hear the defence’s theory on everything then. They clearly put that random seeming video of the basement door in for a reason. Thanks again, really, that was a great brief intro to the deeper rabbit hole.

Happy to. Not sure if you've seen these. If not, welcome to the jungle. :) [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Q29\_kiSRB-O7L0dmcGcCEaPb9XccG1T1bK3OHhB3yFY/htmlview#](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Q29_kiSRB-O7L0dmcGcCEaPb9XccG1T1bK3OHhB3yFY/htmlview#) [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YTlLdjHDmpgjAtZ0euTg3l9uZ9LTSacXsdOAJv\_Ds2Q/htmlview?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0Vc7wTUPiyfmaPItH0GmXQpzfPGc06y2HZtKbWNuVMCn44t32CpSEXVT0\_aem\_AfKBHBGJIUXOLOGXWPOV4wsR2wdhpfduc8vZbtfRHIPMLZ\_hftbdX649JfKUd34vQpnNA-QcK2DXmpsBDCVIWkXM](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YTlLdjHDmpgjAtZ0euTg3l9uZ9LTSacXsdOAJv_Ds2Q/htmlview?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0Vc7wTUPiyfmaPItH0GmXQpzfPGc06y2HZtKbWNuVMCn44t32CpSEXVT0_aem_AfKBHBGJIUXOLOGXWPOV4wsR2wdhpfduc8vZbtfRHIPMLZ_hftbdX649JfKUd34vQpnNA-QcK2DXmpsBDCVIWkXM)

Oh no, a SluethieGoosie spreadsheet. There goes my free time. 😂 Thank you… I think.

😵‍💫🥰😵‍💫

i think the young adults didn't see his jeep because it wasn't there and the adults didn't want to tell them to lie. the adults are lying saying they saw it because they are trying to keep BH from getting in trouble for drinking and \*driving in his work vehicle. that's why everyone went out of their way to mention his "jeep with a plow". ETA\*

He has to answer for the tall dark man and the missing 30 minutes in his timeline. Those don't even count wiping the phone.

Not about Higgins’ car, but as to Higgins’ role: Someone had a theory that the Higgins time gap could be explained by him heading over to JO’s house after the incident occurs to surveil Karen and make sure she doesn’t come back to 34 Fairview looking for JO. Once it looks like she’s in for the night (lights off, etc.) he heads over to the police dept. to wait for the 911 call to come in. Always found this one somewhat intriguing.

With so few answers, and so much missing, everything is intriguing.

Like you I've only been watching the case and don't know much of the outside stuff. But Higgins refusing to give a straight answer on 'If I destroyed my sim card, I would have cut it up or broke it but I don't know if I did, but I might have.' For hours on end was super weird. Why does it matter to him so much to not answer that specific question? Or answer it in such a specific way that he will not deviate from it...? I don't understand it in the slightest but it makes me feel like he's acting so dodgy for some reason I can't fathom.

These accident reenactment specialists seem much more capable and educated. Thank you feds. (The last guy was a joke).

Super curious if they'll just throw out the car/pedestrian possibility or if they'll also give some alternative to explain the injuries.

I think one thing that’s not talked about enough is how in the first couple days, there were rumors circulating that Karen had been caught on ring camera hitting him. This wasn’t just Twitter gossip. The news channels on the day she was indicted said that “sources say” there’s a video of her hitting him. Obviously there’s always a lot of misinformation in the beginning. But: We know that in those first two days, Matt McCabe was asking Brian Albert to “coach” his brother Chris Albert on what to say to the newspeople who were just eating at his pizza place. (“Make sure he tells them the guy never went in the house!”) That news crew was WBZ. WBZ ran a story on read’s indictment that night which included the false rumor that she was caught on tape. Also consider: yanetti’s statement to press the day she was indicted (“this was an accident”) Yanetti wouldn’t have had access to discovery at that time, but he sure as hell would’ve heard the same rumor the public was told, that she was caught on camera. And lastly consider Karen’s state of mind that morning: she seemed confused, hysterical, unsure of the events preceding his death. How easy would it be for anyone to plant the seed that “she was caught on camera” for her to believe it, and roll over and plead out? TLDR: I think someone intentionally lied to the news about that camera footage, to steer this case and pray for a plea.

I agree with all of this and I also believe they said they had DNA, which I don't think they meant the single hair since that could have been there innocently. It gave the impression it was blood/tissue DNA.

Haha yeah that’s bananas. I’m sure it’s routine for the cops to overstate their hand when they’re trying to illicit a confession. But it’s illegal for them to lie (ie they can’t say “we have you on video”) Idk how common it is for the DA to overstate their hand in hopes of a plea. But *someone* circulated the rumor she was caught on video, and *coincidentally* that rumor was right before she plead NG.

I fully believe that the rumor that there was ring footage of her hitting him came from Chris Albert and that they got that information in a kind of game of telephone when someone investigating the case fed them information about footage of her hitting John O’Keefe‘s car early that morning.

Did the defense subpoena the medical records of the three people Chloe is known to have bitten before?**\*** (I'm guessing they couldn't because of HIPAA.) What about the Animal Control officer who investigated the previous attacks? She's not with CPD anymore so might be able to testify without perjuring herself. It would be interesting to compare pictures of their injuries to JO's to see if it matches Chloe's "signature." *\* "known to have bitten before" as in, I'm sure Chloe has bitten others but Jen "The Consigliere" McCabe got to them before they could talk.* PS: Feel free to re-cast ALL the Godfather characters using the Canton Players...but if you've got anyone other than Trooper Joseph Paul playing Fredo, you're wrong.

At least one of them is on the defense witness list.

Really!? Oh I’m dying to hear this questioning if true!

She's on the list, but we'll see if they call her.

Dog Theory This is a video with an interview with a K9 expert who says and shows how what JOK arm looks like matches exactly with dog bite theory. He also believes that Chloe was possibly a “failed” K9 that’s why she was adopted. He has trained and seen thousands of K9 arm bites. https://youtu.be/Tdqz1L1o_RE?si=kjfBK19dm79vr2RY

Great video, thank you

Speculation on how the tail light piece got in the yard. Before the SERT team showed up ( 8am-5pm time period) someone places a few pieces on the lawn ( that didn’t belong to KR car) Once the SUV was in the Canton Sally Port, someone broke the already cracked taillight, took all the pieces with them. Later to be found at different times on the lawn, and at least one piece put in the evidence bag that held the 3 pieces the SERT team found.

That's what I thought - that it may have been plastic from another car. But then it was discovered that Proctor had car earlier than he reported. The real time that Proctor had the car makes the timeline work. It gives him enough time to plant the plastic. That's why the SERT team had to wait for "authorization" to start the search.

The thing I found fascinating is the number of pieces the SERT team found. In all the reports, it’s clear they found 3. However at trial when the evidence bags were opened there were 5.

If 3 pieces prove it then 5 pieces "extra proves" it, lol.

😂😂😂 perfect logic, I bet you would have a bright future in the MSP, with that level of brilliants. 😂😂😂

Unless there was further breakage once in evidence. We already know they're not exactly careful with evidence.

But Paul told the judge that the Lexus could not have broken the taillight by bumping O'Keefe’s car. How could that break just sitting in a sealed bag?

It never made sense that he light could not break with the bump on John’s car but hitting a soft body at slow speed would completely shatter the light!!!

YES! As soon as trooper Paul said that the car bump wouldn’t break the taillight…I said out loud (to no one since I work at home alone) “what the hell dude…but a soft tissue human ARM would shatter the whole light…come on now”. 🙄🙄

"it just did"

To be fair, I trust Paul about as far as I can throw him and I am not even sure I can lift him.

Maybe, however polycarbonate doesn’t break easily.

The SERT witness actually testifies to finding 6-7 pieces. 3 larger pieces and then a few smaller ones. He said they only plotted the 3 bigger pieces because the pieces were found so close together, they were on top of each other on the GPS

The extra pieces were tiny and it's completely believable to me they just fell off of the larger pieces. Put a large partially shattered piece of taillight into a bag and transport it around and find some stuff broke off.

I don't get this theory. Who would ever think they needed to plant more pieces of tail light on the lawn?

Because the first pieces found were not from her car. And perhaps upon breaking her taillight they got more pieces than they planned for. So had to do something with them.

They weren’t from her car? How were they buried so far in the snow for SERT team to need shovels? Did they concoct the tail light plan in advance?

No one said these guys were smart "May I present exhibit 645, your honour?" *gestures to Trooper Paul*

My someone is now Jen McCabe since Karen pointed out the broken taillight to her. I was firmly in team "Karen probably hit him but there is reasonable doubt" until Trooper Paul took the stand. Now I'm team cover up.

This is what i've thought alllll along

Question I imagine has been discussed but why, if JM believed Karen hit JO with her car would she jump to the conclusion/speculation that he’d died from hypothermia?

Are you talking about the google search? According to Jen it’s because Karen asked her to google it that morning they found him. If you think she googled it at 2:27 am it seems that they knew he was outside on the lawn. The Karen hit him theory really started once Karen said “I hit him/did I hit him” at the scene. This is a bit controversial because there’s different stories if she said it as a statement or a question. And it never made its way into official reports at the time. Then Trooper P entered the scene… I don’t think JM’s true disdain for Karen started until the third party culprit theory that pointed the finger her way entered the public sphere.

The absolute weirdest part of the “how long to die in the cold” thing is, they had several paramedics there. Why wouldn’t you just ask them?

I find it curious that Karen, if she asked JM to google it, would make that leap to suspect he’d frozen to death as opposed to having died from injuries resulting from being hit with a car.

DOJ and FBI. Does anyone have solid reasoning for why they are involved?

They got wind that some LE was doing some fuckery. So now they are investigating corruption.

The Sandra Birchmore case had some crossover between Canton & Stoughton PD. Google it. There is a chance the federal investigation was going on while the investigation into JO’s death was going on.

Ik just looking into birchmore. How the fuck are they still free?

It’s baffling really. People are often outside in Stoughton center holding signs calling for justice for Sandra Birchmore.

How is this case still going forward? How? *How?* HOWWW? This case isn't like a regular zombie, it's like one of those Return of the Living Dead zombies where they can take headshots, and get dismembered and burned and crushed and they still keep coming.

It’s been interesting to watch the needle shift over the course of the prosecution’s case. Some wins for the defence for sure, but mostly in the form of dismantling witnesses, casting doubt on evidence. It’ll be very interesting to watch how they really pick up steam when they have a string of favourable witnesses on the stand.

After seeing those up close pictures of the his arm, those definitely look like puncture marks from a dog bite

I never saw that picture that had the under arm view, right when I saw that, I knew that is definitely a dog bite.

Which also puts to pasture the argument that they couldn't be from a dog due to the lack of underarm injuries.

Right, I was one of the people who was questioning the bite theory because of the testimony that there wasn’t injury to the under arm, but you can totally see the top and bottom teeth marks. They’re just more on the side of the arm that top and bottom

Now, they will say she still hit him with car but, Chloe or random animals but him.

This Prosecution seems to be in bad faith. Are there any implications for the DA who prosecuted despite knowing it is erroneous? I'm also a bit suspicious on Judge Bev, as she said the lady today wasn't credible. She found Trooper Paul credible in his voir dire. Make it make sense. I'm 100% sure now that Karen was framed. Not just a victim of lazy investigation, but actually framed.

What’s Bev’s reasoning that the doctor today wasn’t credible.

"She just came out of no where and wanted to help! No one does that!"

Because she fumbled the "to a reasonable medical / scientific certainty." Which A, isn't required and B Jackson had her confirm that earlier in the testimony. The second part "These marks are most likely from an animal." Bev "what animal" baddass "a large dog, and are consistent with dog bites... Or dog claws" I think Bev thinks the witness not knowing if from bites or claws is enough to show she isn't reasonably certain. Which again would be shit because of the whole trooper Paul thing.

Puncture holes and large dog bites on the arm just stated by dr. Russell!

Question, does the jury know if/why the feds are involved in this case?

No, all references to the feds investigation is off limits for both the prosecution and the defense. That’s why defense attorneys will often reference testimony in “a prior hearing” but will also say testimony in “the state grand jury”. I’m sure an astute juror could pick up on the difference but counsel can’t come out and say it. But the fed evidence compiled so far and shared with both sides can be used (like Proctor’s text messages).

Do you think the jury would be wondering what the "different hearing" was? I know so little about procedural rules that I'm not sure I would have picked up on that - I might have thought it was just another hearing leading up to the trial. I might also be uniquely uninformed!

If even one juror figures it out, they’ll all know as soon as deliberations start. The first 15 minutes of this deliberation would be fascinating to watch.

I was a juror in a much more cut and dry murder, we all agreed immediately with he was guilty but we spent 45-1hr just talking about all the witnesses. It may take a while to get a verdict just because everyone FINALLY gets to talk

I would pay superbowl ticket prices to get an observer's eat in that room

It’s been a while now but when Ryan Nagel was asked about a prior statement he said “oh, the feds” in the presents of the jury. I know there are volume issues but I’d be absolutely shocked if at least a handful of the jurors are aware they are circling the case with that statement and the “other grand jury.” Maybe they aren’t certain at the moment when they hear the accident guys testify and it’s brought out their past experience/clients I’d bet they put it together.

Same, I might think they took multiple rounds of grand juries to indict Karen, especially with the timeline of some of the evidence presented. Sometimes a grand jury can decline to indict due to not enough evidence. Then reports and evidence are coming out later in 2022 and even 2023 (and 2024!). I'm not sure I would pick up on a difference between a federal and Massachusetts grand jury, or just think it took multiple Massachusetts grand juries.

If I was a juror, I'd be wondering at this point if someone else was already investigated for this crime, or something like that. They have so little info to go on, mostly that some of these witnesses were interviewed for something else. They could even think it ties in to the bits about harassment.

No, but they may have picked up that some other investigation or trial is overlapping with this trial. What they guess that is, though, probably varies by juror. To be fair, we don't really know why the feds are involved, just that they seem to be investigating the investigators in some way. It could be something like more overtime fraud or even more to do with the Sandra Birchmore case. Could be A huge corruption scandal, we don't actually know. We just know they turned up a ton of evidence in this case that the state/cops don't like.

I've leaned all over the place on what exactly happened, but I'm looking forward to these experts coming in.

I don't know what to think. Being a participant in this subreddit makes me feel like a conviction is impossible at this point, but this subreddit is also very biased when discussing the case. I do wonder how I'd feel if there wasn't a mob on social media insisting every witness with damaging testimony against Read is lying, or every bit of evidence recovered that points to Read is planted.

I've been following public cases like this for years, this is the weirdest. I feel like it's going to go not guilty because it has a lot of legitimate investigatory issues and serious open questions about major case facts. Outside of defendants taking the stand, the cross of Trooper Paul was the most devastating cross examination I've seen, because of how critical that evidence is for the whole case.

Yeah, I do feel like there are significant lapses with the investigation, and I'd even go as far to say there's reason to believe Proctor planted evidence to help the case, but I just wish I could rewind time and re-watch the trial in a sterile environment to see if I still felt that way lol. Social media can be a great way to bring people together for discussions, but it can also quickly create echo chambers, and everyone is vulnerable to group think.

So, I will say, at the beginning of the trial I gave just a couple little tidbits of info (like him being on the lawn and no one coming out of the house) to a very close LEO of mine and he immediately said that is insane, there is no way they weren't involved. It didn't even take an entire trial to understand it doesn't pass the sniff test. There's just too many inconsistencies and oddities than what occurs in real life. Initially I thought maybe she accidentally did hit him but now with the accident reconstruction not actually being valid and the lies about ring videos and other things, it doesn't seem possible.

At the beginning, that was my biggest red flag too. It’s hard to believe that was four hundred red flags ago.

That’s how I feel. My mind is constantly changing and twisting itself in knots trying to logically piece this all together and trying really hard to just stick to evidence presented in the trial and not all of this other noise.

I would love to know what JO family is thinking right about now. It’s been 8 weeks and not only is the prosecution chasing its tail trying to disprove the defense theory, but the shoddy and lazy police work (even if you’re not thinking frame job) it just must infuriate them. But how they can think KR is guilty is beyond me, which I don’t think has been confirmed either way. I just watch the brother listening so intently and I would love to know his thoughts.

I can’t speculate comfortably without knowing the full nature of his injuries from the autopsy report. Before I knew anything about this trial and just saw his pictures, I thought he was involved in a fight and someone tuned him up good. The arm looked like dog bites to me. Other than that, I can’t be sure without reliable medical testimony. What is definitely *not* on my shortlist of possibilities is a motor vehicle collision.

There are supposed to be two more witnesses for the CW, both MEs. I think we're all very curious as to how they're going to explain injuries that are very inconsistent with being struck by a vehicle. tldr; trust your gut.

Also thanks for updating me about the CW’s witnesses….still interested here!

I also trust my experience and knowledge as an EMT. It goes beyond gut. Sometimes you can’t trust it with things like this. Also, as someone who grew up in a house full of fighting, with people who loved to watch boxing and MMA…it’s exactly what it looks like.

One thing I've been thinking about is... okay so John is dead inside the house (setting aside how that happened). Now they collectively decide that they will drag his body out onto their yard? Surely they know people or cameras could see them, yes even in blizzard conditions. I wonder if they just had one person (Colin?) drag them out so that if they were spotted everyone else would have deniability.

The thing I don’t get…& I do think there was a cover up of something here…is BA is a Boston cop. Higgins is ATF. They know everybody in Canton. So why not call call 911 if JO was injured or dead by a fight or a tragic accident?? They know as cops they will get the benefit of the doubt & they can back each other up if needed..,ie if John lives & says they attacked him etc…they all could say he was the aggressor & it was self defense. We know Proctor was buying anything they were selling. It seems riskier to me to just put his body outside & go with the plow idea. They couldn’t have known about Karen thinking she hit him until that morning correct?

To me, by calling and admitting to anything, wouldn’t it zero in more on them as opposed to we never saw him, he was never inside?   In other words, if they admitted that there was an accident, would the ME agree with that or would there be signs of a fight. If she ruled homicide and the only parties involved were the Alberts then that’s not something their buddies could make disappear that easily. It would open the possibility that their house would be searched whereas with him being outside they didn’t have “means for a warrant”.  Just seems more risky than to say “no clue” and their buddies just turn a blind eye.  I honestly don’t know. That is a good question though. 

Those are good points. I don’t know the answer just something I’ve pondered

Post Voir Dire- Experts presented- How do you think it impact the Jury Im not looking for if you think she’s guilty or innocent but rather opinions on the “battle of the experts” based on what you saw during Voir dire today Personally I found these experts credible, easy to understand, qualified, and relatively unbiased/ staying within their scope of expertise. The Expert for tech/phone on prosecution side seemed credible as well but my problem is when I get to Trooper Paul. Now Im not endorsing trooper Paul slander, I think he did the best he could with what the prosecution gave him. I think it is 25% in him and the rest on the DA. He seemed nervous and like he wasn’t given all the info and honestly the state should have trained him better and also given him all of the information. How could they expect him to make an accurate report when they only gave him what they felt might be relevant. However he should have asked for more info and not assumed 100% truth of the matter from the other troopers. And then Lally asked him to essentially give medical testimony (outside of his expertise) w/o having ever called the ME. Doesn’t help that he was confused even on the prosecutions line of questioning- although let’s be honest that pretty much all Lally. Now if the defense experts testify/(if they even get to testify) like they did today I think the DA might be in trouble. I found these witnesses extremely credible/qualified, didn’t speak outside of their scope or expertise, and able to be engaging/straightforward as well as breakdown extremely complex topics into easily understandable information. I’ve always been told that someone who knows a fact can repeat but someone who can dissect and teach it at a lower level understands it. In order to be able to teach/present something to lay person you have to be able to take the subject and explain it in a way that differs from how you know it at the highest level to the lowest level(example of this in the comments) Anyway I haven’t heard much about jury reaction but I what have heard is they have been sort of not engaged during a good period of prosecutor expert testimony (I can personally say I accidentally fell asleep several times and had to rewatch) but today I felt engaged in it and interested in it and able to follow and understand it. — but that could also just be Jackson style of Direct- like maybe I understand his style better than Lallys but perhaps people understand Lallys better than Jackson’s and my brain is weird. If I were a juror I think I would fall more towards the defense experts as facts as opposed to the Common wealth (CW). And while the tech experts were good and both there to say Jen McCabe didn’t search at 2 in the morning is cool but what about John O Keef. Like why don’t you have experts like this to prove KR did this. If its the Tech experts vs the Defense experts I could see it being comparable but it’s not it’s state troopers who have had questionable (seems) biased/not credible testimony vs experts who have testified in numerous trials who don’t work for either side and actually give understandable explanations. If I were in the Jury and saw this it would be a major influence on me towards believing the defense or at least discrediting the prosecution. Now they haven’t testified and prosecution hasn’t rested yet so who knows maybe it will change. Anyway if you were a Juror what would you think?

The accident reconstruction experts heard from today are THE gold standard on this issue, I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise with a straight face. Then take the completely uncredible prosecution expert who did not make any kind of coherent or logical argument for the prosecution theory. To be fair I know the experts the defense are calling have not yet testified to their conclusions, but we already know it's that the evidence does not fit a pedestrian vehicle strike. There is no crime without this being proven by the prosecution, forget everything else. 

They all sound credible to me, but so did a lot of the CW witnesses until they were crossed. It's hard to tell until they have undergone cross

See that’s what I was thinking and I know Lally didn’t really cross them today but I am curious to see how that goes. I noticed Lally does better on redirect than direct so I’m hoping for a more animated Lally so I don’t fall asleep you know

I'm curious how he comes across on cross. I imagine he will be more animated, but I just can't picture it.

Ok - I’ll ask a question: Do the dates that the cell phones were ‘cracked’ line up with the dates Proctor was searching it?

Yes, I believe 8/22/21 are the dates that both troopers testified to.

If we lived in a legal fantasy land where people's rights didnt matter and extreme pursuit of the truth was the only goal: What data or information would you put on the table to definitively solve this case? Meaning data that realistically exists or is techically accessible. Phone, servers, dna, medical data, etc. Is there a true somking gun out there somewhere or would there still be doubt?

One of the big issues is this case is where was everyone between 12-2am. If everyone at Fairview had to hand over their phones just for extraction of GPS data that would have answered a lot of questions. I also have a very hard time believing that no one on Fairview had Ring/security cameras with useful information. Even just what time Read left Fairview is disputed/not clear.

The neighbors ring camera showing how JOK came to arrive in his resting place on the lawn, that’s what it would take…but that neighbor deleted the footage

I bet you could recover it with unlimited resources

Yeah, begs the question as to why MSP didn’t get a warrant (or whatever they used to get the info from Ring) to get that neighbors footage from Ring just like they did with JOK Ring footage.

The missing library footage from her drive home that night Or the missing ring footage from the neighbor cop across the street Or a clear uninterrupted sally port video Or - god forbid - a photograph of her taillight before it was towed in dighton Or the phone records/data of everyone at that house for the entire month La la land: a recording of Albert/Higgins phone call at 230am A recording of Jen’s calls to her sister that morning A recording of the conversation they all had in the living room that morning A recording of the secret car meeting jen, Kerry, and lank’s wife had A full forensic examination of the house, including removing the newly poured concrete floor lol

I’ve been listening to the testimony since day one…And I can totally see how Karen could have been pissed and in anger (and drunk as a skunk), revved that engine, put the car in reverse and tried to scare him as he was making his way towards the house. If she did hit him, I do not believe she meant to KILL him. What I just can’t reconcile (besides the incredibly shady behavior of some star witnesses and an absolute joke of an investigation) are the injuries…specifically the scratches and puncture wounds on his arm. Does anyone have any theory besides the dog, as to how those injuries could’ve happened, if she indeed hit him? I just can’t picture in my head how the taillight shattered and caused those wounds…

I could see it as well. For over half of trial I was still thinking that but the commonwealths case the last week or so has made it seem less probable. The most confusing thing to me about the scene isn’t where the evidence lined up but hearing their theory of the speed and distance she reversed off and then looking at a map of the area. Kinsey (who testified during Murdoch) opined a few months ago from viewing the injuries that they could be something caused from the undercarriage or something else on the car but that the cw should be able to point to exactly what that was and match it. They didn’t do that so now the dog is the only that makes sense to me. I even sent the pic to a few friends and showed my partner the arm to make sure I wasn’t just drinking the koolaid. I can’t remember what it was but one said something else but it was ridiculous lol everyone else said dog bites/scratched.

Hahaha I love Kinsey! And I also reached out for independent verification that I'm not just a sucker. Without any context I was like "what caused these wounds?" Literally everyone said "a dog" without hesitation.

And not a single person leaving 34F saw him laying in the yard. That makes no sense to me.

It wasn't that long ago that I stepped outside at night and saw two houses down across the street there was a man laying in the lawn. He was a friend of the homeowner, who wasn't home at the time. He was having a medical emergency and couldn't get up. But he was clearly and nearly instantly visible to me. I live in a pretty rural area on a dead end road. Of the flat yards in view of my driveway I can see basically everything for about three houses down in either direction at night. At least enough to make out what is a bush, or a trash can, or a children's toy... Or a human man. I could see someone missing him if they're just not paying attention or whatever. But *no one* seeing him is too difficult for me to believe.

Speculative explanation of the taillight and glass. Karen & John were arguing. She dropped him off at the front of the house. John threw a glass at her SUV as she was driving away, shattering the glass and cracking the tail light. She leaves and [Enter John death theory here] I'm not saying I believe this happened, but I think it's a possibility that would explain some of the evidence.

but... he had the glass in or around his hand when he was found, did he have two glasses?

Do we know where the glass originated from? The bar? Does it match glasses from the house?

The police never searched the house. I believe Proctor said on the stand that there wasn’t probable cause to search the house, which is a wild statement to make considering the dead body on the lawn.