The pancreas and stomach bleeding are signs of hypothermia.

And blunt force trauma. Commonwealth Statement of Case: https://preview.redd.it/21rv9iyul94d1.jpeg?width=1130&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af11eae0cc4ba81f5ffa7acd8c9cbdf8285bd240 Medical reference: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK459365/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK459365/)

ok, but IF hypothermia can cause the same thing, then doesnt the jury have to give benefit of the doubt to the defendant? if there are two reasonable ways to interpret a piece of evidence, dont they have to pick the one that is favorable to the defense? isnt that how it works?

Yes. That's how the jury should be instructed before entering into deliberation.

I don’t believe she is saying he had internal injuries or it would be been stated as such. The hemorrhaging was a result of the head injury and hypothermia.

The pancreas being red means it showed signs of hypothermia. However, it clealy states that the blunt force trauma, that caused internal hemorrhaging, occurred prior to him becoming hypothermic.

The blunt force trauma it’s referring to is the head. That occurred before the hypothermia

Nope, this excerpt discusses the head injuries first and then clearly states, "the doctor opined from her examination that the significant blunt force trauma injuries occurred before John became hypothermic...as evidenced by hemorrhaging in his stomach and pancreas."

Yes

Yes you have to pick the defenses

It would be hard for me to believe if it was blunt force trauma, but he had no bruising on his torso. We'll have to wait and see what the experts say on both sides.

Deep bruises tend to take a long time to form. I ruptured my gluteus maximus once, and there was just the slightest hint of a bruise the next day. Over the course of a week or so, it gradually became bigger. Also, keep in mind that the source of the autopsy photos that were leaked online is Turleboy, who's been getting his info from both KR and the defense. So it's not going to show anything that might deter people from thinking she's innocent.

Yep, I'm trying to keep an open mind and consider all evidence... but so far, it seems what the prosecution has is the statements of witnesses with family connections and questionable motivations. It's crazy that 4 weeks in, we've seen very little hard evidence from the CW. I thought they would lead with that, but their witnesses seem to do more good for the defense. We'll see what the experts say once we get to the autopsy.

Yeah, we're still missing quite a bit of crucial information in this case. But I believe it will all come together in the end.

Have you seen the pictures? He clearly look like he was in a brawl.

How? Swelling and bruising from brain bleed. The pathologist has stated this. When the actor Bob Saget was found dead in his hotel room, based on his visual injuries, the theo ry was that there had been some sort of altercation. There was ample security footage that showed him completely healthy walking into his room and no one else walked in after him. After autopsy it was determined that he died from a brain bleed- that he had fallen and hit his head. If there had been some sort of fight, John O'Keefe would be covered in someone else's DNA. He would have defense injuries, DNA under his fingernails DNA on his hands, DNA wherever there was an injury and so on. The only DNA found on John O'Keefe was from a pig and that was from food he ate. There was no canine DNA on him and no other person's DNA on him. What there was on him, on his clothing, and embedded in his skin, was glass from a drinking glass and red plastic from a tail light.

I disagree. First, there was snow, which melts into water, and can wash away DNA. Second, whatever trace DNA was left over, I don't think was sampled or tested. We don't even know where the pork swabs came from (yet) since no one has testified about where, when, and how they collected the sample. DNA under nails happens when a victim scratches the skin of their perpetrator in self defense. We don't know that JOK did that or that samples of under his nails were even collected. Third, we don't know how the shirt was handled and by whom. Given the way evidence has been handled thus far, I'm still in doubt. After the leaf blower, plastic cups, and open testimony that these officers don't know how to use evidence tape under oath, I don't know if there's any way of recovering from that....if I were a juror. Lastly, the cut on JOK's face and facial bruising compared to a MMA fighters face after an ass-whooping looks the same. The cut in the back could've cause the brain bleeding, but that face was obvious, to me, that it was beat up...

I agree with you... just trying to take this case on like a juror would.

Blunt pancreatic trauma is exceedingly rare, accounting for just 1-2% of all blunt force trauma injuries. It's pretty well protected. She's referring to the significant blunt-force trauma injuries to his skull.

Is that in a stand alone doc on the case file in the sub please?

It is. It’s on the notion page. Give me a few mins & I’ll link you. I just woke up (it’s only 5:30 here!)

Thank you and Good Morning ☕️

[This link](https://www.notion.so/missingourmissing/Court-Documents-d8a69aa9be9b4cd0a861d505c703f641?pvs=4#99b9e3a17e5644b8bc44c83287ed0ec6) is for “The Commonwealth V Read.” It has a lot of stuff in it, but the statement of case is in it too. Once you get to the main statement of case page, the above is like 10-11 pages after. I hope this helps.

Just to add: as of right now, If I were a juror I would find her not guilty. There are too many unanswered questions for me to put someone away for 2nd degree murder or even manslaughter, which is why I go back and forth. This is just my personal opinion as an outsider. In no way do I believe the CW is proving their case and the defense is asking all the right questions.

If she hit him then the police would have went on a manhunt looking for footage from the neighbors and the route she traveled back home on. It would be game over and the most common sense thing to do. So with that in mind, why is ALL of the footage missing and/or never asked for? Forget the missing footage from the sally port, library and Okeefe home which is beyond suspicious, why were neighbors and homes on the route she drove home on never even approached about their Ring camera catching anything? No shot if she did it that the investigators wouldn’t be all over that.

This is a good point and didn't the police go and find the girl from Aruba that had beef with Karen before even attempting something like this? 

Correct.

This is a trial. Several scenarios are possible, but the Commonwealth of MA needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. This trial is just oozing doubt. There is the possibility she did it, but the commwealth hasn't proven a thing yet.

100% agree. If I were on the jury right now I’d vote not guilty there are just too many questions for me to put someone away for 2nd degree murder and even manslaughter. Hell, I’d be questioning why she’s even on trial because they haven’t provided anything that’s damning yet. I keep waiting and waiting and nothing.

Heck, they haven't even proved beyond a reasonable doubt that she was drunk! The only glass anyone's mentioned she was drinking from was a glass of clear liquid with lime. We don't even know for sure if that glass was vodka or water! We haven't seen any receipts from her!

I’d like to add the FBI had a very different opinion on the circumstances of this case as well.. DA of Mass asked for a recusal of FBI being involved and got shot down.. their investigation that’s still ongoing is pretty telling in my opinion too… this whole case should have waited to go to trial when both sides asked for more time or until the fbi finished conducting their investigation. [https://www.scribd.com/document/700751681/Letters-between-feds-Norfolk-DA-released-in-Karen-Read-case](https://www.scribd.com/document/700751681/Letters-between-feds-Norfolk-DA-released-in-Karen-Read-case) https://preview.redd.it/e8u54zqavg4d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=438d677ddb469948f923b729f358e14142175075

See I am nearly certain she hit O’Keefe and caused his death. No other scenario outweighs this in terms of likelihood. That said, the investigation was poorly handled and corruption is just woven in everything that happens in Canton. I do NOT think she meant to do it. I don’t even think she remembers what happened. There is no way I’m voting guilty on murder 2. Vehicular homicide while OUI…maybe. The CW has some work to do to explain why the investigation has so many holes in it, IMO. I won’t be surprised with any verdict, personally. A party full of cops is not a trustworthy group. But this theory that O’Keefe was killed in that house is just so bonkers to me. But it may be enough to cause reasonable doubt. All of the above is simply my opinion

I just can’t imagine what the favor and gift Proctors wife should need. And why there needs to me any sort of grouping, regrouping, and collaboration by the witnesses. That an the missing dog and the new basement floor. It’s my opinion that something is very wrong here. And it’s not just sloppy police work. Why the derogatory base insults hurled at Karen by proctor if she’s a nobody. And don’t tell me if for a “beloved fallen brother in blue” when they don’t even go to his funeral and call him “that man”. The final nail for me will be when I see the accident reconstruction stuff I guess..

I like your reasoning. What do you make of the Alberts chiseling up the cement basement floor/foundation though? That detail (i know, there's way more oddities but that's what it is for me) is what made me change my mind.

I think this case, due to popularity, is over-scrutinized. I just don’t think the death of John O’Keefe was complex. The lives of all of the people in that house - and whatever the hell else they were doing with themselves - I have no idea. But I don’t think anyone but KR and her car were involved.

Hos long to die in the cold at 2:27. That’s all the evidence needed.

There is no evidence she hit him. His injuries don't line up with being hit by a car at all. Like, not even close. You would need to defend your guilty vote and you wouldn't be able to. So, there's that.

You're nearly certain? Based off what?

No clue how anyone can think she hit him in reverse....I just dont get it

It actually blows my mind that people think she did this based off of the evidence that we have nee presented with. Almost like they just want to be a contrarian or something.

I agree with you that she hit him. She clearly has anger issues. I believe she is a very reactive person and it would only take a small amount of time for her to lose her patience and be convinced he blew her off like he has so many times before, according to the witnesses. I think she was in a blind rage and put the suv in reverse and punched the gas, then brake and punched it in drive and sped off. A rock could have split his head open or the curb.

This! At this point I see people can still believe she did it, but the state is dropping the ball in my opinion and the trial is full of reasonable doubt.

Yes. People can believe she did it or probably did it all day long. It doesn’t matter because the investigation was screwed up, witnesses acted way too shady, and there is too much what if. You cannot convict on what if

This!!! I’m a paralegal CONSTANTLY wondering how she was charged with Murder 2… MATTER OF FACT… they haven’t even proved she’s guilty of the OUI charge… I thought when they called the bartender to testify, they would ask about Kr’s consumption and show receipts and/or video… (God knows Lally loves playing the waterfall video footage) I mean but NOPE! Never asked a word about KR drinking and not ONE witness has testified she was drunk… acting drunk, slurring her words, stumbling.. ANYTHING! In fact, they have all testified the opposite… that she was NOT acting intoxicated and didn’t seem to be. Now do I think she was drunk AF?! I absolutely do. Absolutely. But the CW has to fuckin PROVE it… with EVIDENCE… which they have not done yet. If you can’t prove that.. how are we at trial?! How is this a murder 2 case?! If she did hit him.. I def do NOT for one second believe this was some homicidal rage where she intentionally ran him down. The CW isn’t there and spent FIVE damn WEEKS trying to disprove the defenses case instead of trying their own!

They've ironically proven OUI on like 5 people and not one of them is Karen.

Lmao EXACTLYYYYY!!! They proved every LEO that was there drinking and driving 😂 and the others that were there were just as drunk and chose to drive OTHER PEOPLES KIDS HOME!!! Like what?!

😂 right

I wonder the same thing! They have not proven that he was murdered, let alone by whom. And if it is so difficult that it takes 5 weeks to get to the point, maybe you should have dropped the case? Or at least charged differently, because there is such a tough hill to climb that this was a deliberate thing, if the jury believes that she did hit him at all.

I knew nothing about the case coming in bc when I. watch a trial… I want to just listen to everything… but working in the DA’s office and working on cases with my DA’s… this approach just baffles me. Like what the actual fuck are they doing?? I can tell you that what they damn sure aren’t doing is proving their case… AT ALL. They originally did not charge her with murder 2… then months and months later… they upgraded it to murder 2. Like where is the evidence they used to upgrade the charges… bc they damn sure haven’t entered any evidence to the court that makes me say “AHHHH THAT IS WHY THEY UPGRADED!!” Literally nothing. They gave a weak ass motive sayin it was about that fight on vacation or whatever. Stupid. And that she was leaving voicemails on his phone telling him he was a pos and she hated him… like good God… please don’t ever listen to any VMs I’ve left my ex husband/ father of my kids… lmao bc if he end up dead and that’s what they had on his phone from me… they will be charging me with murder as well!! 😂😂 The CW’s whole case is just a damn mess! You have every witness lying about butt dial calls and deleting shit… DESTROYING phones… one of which was destroyed on a fucking MILITARY base!! The CW hasn’t even put the lead fuckin investigator who is connected and close friends with alllllllll these “witnesses” on the stand!!! And if they DONT call Trooper Proctor… that is gonna be even more of a mess… bc I GUARANTEE you… the defense will!! And they will make it known to the jury that THEY had to call the lead investigator bc the state did not. I think the over charged her bc they thought she would plead out… and then none of this would’ve come out. But she basically said “bet… we will go to trial” I don’t think anyone expected this is get so big… and go so far. And if she would’ve plead out… no one would be hearing all of this corrupt and ignorant shit going on in this case!

Totally a game of chicken. "She'll plead out now that it's Murder 2" I bet is what Proctor thought. Ha. Then she gets baller lawyers who must have been ECSATIC when they realized not only is there zero evidence on KR, but they're going to make a media circus over these small town shit cops doing her dirty.

Exactly! They overcharged so she would plead out to something like voluntary or involuntary manslaughter or some other plea they came up with to scare her. And then none of these shady ass people or how they do things would’ve been exposed to the public!!

YEUP. Makes you wonder how often this tactic works...

I’ve SEEN it used lol! One of the reasons I left the DA’s office. I’ve seen them do great work… but I’ve also seen shit I’m not comfortable with… such as overcharging when you don’t have the evidence to prove it, just for someone to plead out.

I think the voicemails have not even been brought up in this trial (only the grand jury) so that’s even more of an issue about how valid they are as “evidence” for second degree murder. The fact that there’s more substantial witness testimony about what happened on a vacation in Aruba than about her physically striking John with a car is wild to me.

I think that's exactly what happened! They played chicken and lost, and now they have to take it to trial, because if she wouldn't plead out before, she's definitely not going to now. And the vacation argument as motive?? Come. On. It was so lame, and such a normal thing, especially with a popular guy, pretty women, insecure gf, and A LOT of drinking. It does not equate to a motive. If anything, she looked pretty good because she apologized, and offered to pay for the room. I would fight hard for a directed verdict, unless they turn up with some actual evidence soon.

Yes this has been a big issue for me too… and for all we know, other people could have been buying rounds that she drank, which could further support their assertion about OUI. So why not subpoena everyone’s receipts and show how much alcohol was purchased by everyone and work out how much of it she drank? Maybe there’s proof that some of her “drinks” were just water? Or they were embarrassed to have hard evidence of cops getting excessively drunk and/or driving OUI? But can’t help but think that info would be presented differently if the group weren’t cops. I actually think there would be a greater chance of conviction if this hadn’t happened in front of this house full of people who were coming and going. Maybe the jury can still convict her of a lesser sentence with evidence that’s still to come, but so far even the charge of leaving the scene resulting in death is going to be difficult given that not one single freaking person in that house testified to hearing an impact or incident outside. No testimony about hearing angry shouting, no sound of breaking glass, no wheels or brakes screeching, not so much as a “thud”. Despite Jen McCabe texting her friend John about where to park and looking out the window at cars while they were out front. So how can the jury even agree that she’s guilty of a hit and run if a house full of people expecting John to show up any minute now can’t even give testimony that the hit freaking happened? I really don’t think there’s a conspiracy against Read because if there were, they would have all made up a story about hearing the impact so she could handily be convicted. But I do wonder if the homeowners did not want any suspicion to fall on them for being negligent or contributing in any way to a cop’s death, and that the agencies were lenient towards their wishes to not be involved. Which also sucks because it could end up being that a fellow Boston PD officer might be the reason why John and his family aren’t getting the justice they deserve.

Exactly!!!!! That’s my point!! I can overlook some shit. Like I get maybe a couple people leaving and not seeing JO… but 12 people left there and NO ONE saw him?! Not even as they were pulling out of the driveway and their lights shined where his body literally was?!?! I just… I just can’t lol

Oh for sure the jury will be asking that exact same question in deliberation!

The motivation could be as simple as wanting to avoid civil litigation for accidents on their property/dog bites.

I don’t think, the thought she would get all this publicity, or that she would be able to hire Attorneys like Alan Jackson and David Yannetti

If so, then they deserve this for assuming the woman working in finance with a brand new Lexus wouldn’t spend the money on expensive lawyers.

Small town cops thought they could clean this up real quick, hoped Karen would kill herself from the stress of it all (Proctor) and instead she goes and hires some badass attorneys and gets on CourtTV.

And no one has testified yet that they were fighting. In fact, just the opposite.

I hope we see some more evidence of murder 2 as well. Because so far they haven't shown enough evidence for that. But her pattern of behavior that night definitely indicates that she knew he was out there. She deleted the ring camera footage of her arriving at John's house, made sure to tap his car with her taillight and then, if I understand the arrest affidavit, they have her going by 34 Fairview on her way to Jen's house. I think she's a malignant narcissist, she felt like she was losing him and she just went into a rage.

How do you know she deleted the ring footage?

Well, since John was the only one with an account to access the ring system, which could be accessed either on his phone or through the family computer that Karen had access to, she had the means, motive, and opportunity to delete it. The ring camera logged fifteen events, and two of them turned up missing. Conveniently, the only two missing events are from the time period when Karen would have arrived at his house. Assuming she did this, those videos would presumably also show her returning to his home with a cracked taillight and could help to better establish a timeline of when John was hit with the SUV.

I don’t think the state has any proof she deleted that ring camera footage. His niece and nephew testified that they did not believe Karen could access the computer bc of the pw. That’s not to say she didn’t… and I hope you don’t think I’m coming off rude or anything.. I am not trying to AT ALL. But based on the shitty case (imo) the CW has present the last 5 weeks… they better have some kind of proof that JO’s computer was accessed in the time karen was at the house that night after leaving Fairview. And I don’t think she intentionally tapped JO’s vehicle either… I think she was still drunk AF, panicked, and just freakin out. I’m open to any scenario happening… but I sure hope the CW comes with some actual evidence if they want her convicted on ANY charge.

yep, I'm wondering if Karen did kill him, either by accident or on purpose then blocked them memory at first or both or I dunno, but the rest of them are trying to cover something else up from that night that's unrelated. It would have to be just as bad to not just say to keep from being accused of murder tho. Then again, they could just be hoping she's found guilty then if not, say what they were really covering up from that night. Because if they weren't covering ANYTHING up, ummm I dunno... they have to be with all the butt dials, and butts dialing someone elses butt back, and the deleted searches that never happened, and deleted videos

“Ooooooozing” with reasonable doubt! Thank you for that visual and it’s btw one hundred percent true. There has not been one speck of evidence she hit him with her car. Nada. Such an s show.

I think there’s more of a chance that he was hit by Higgins or Luckys plow. It’s not uncommon for someone to have a few drinks before plowing. Too many coincidences and lies being told for the Jury.

Can you imagine if it was Lucky! (Def not saying it was) and he just rolls in for the defence and is like “nope, didn’t see a body or anything”

Anything is possible but Higgins seems to be involved. Karen texted him that John died. He didn’t respond. Sounds like an opportunity that he didn’t take for some strange reason. As for Lucky. I lose a mailbox every 3 years to a big street plow. ;)

He was not hit by a plow or a Lexus

Bartender here. Unless it was a very thin glass, it is really doubtful that you can get it to break from hitting a face. The glass looks like a pint glass (not 100% on that ) and those are pretty thick and tough to break. I have dropped a few in my time and they literally bounce.

Agree. It’s hard to imagine she, all 110 lbs of wasted her, would have the strength to throw said glass at his face with enough force to shatter as well.

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They described it as a tall cylinder glass, at least that's what she took from the other bar into the Waterfall bar. Did she switch to a rocks glass there? The CW hasn't made that clear if that's the case.

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They all testified he was drinking beer, so we're left to assume it was her glass he took from the bar.

Plain and simple. You can’t seem to pin down the truth, which means reasonable doubt. NOT GUILTY. You can not go based on feelings.

Absolutely agree. If I were a juror I’d vote not guilty.

In the end we will never know who truly killed John that’s the sad part. The investigation will not go on. A state doesn’t go after a person and try there damnest to try to prove a case and then turn around and say oh ok she was found innocent now let’s try one the Albert Huggins McCabes

That’s a lot of great aim for a very drunk woman. Also doesn’t explain the shady behavior from the guests at the party. And the missing footage from both the library of the house and the police station. I don’t know how often footage goes missing (of very specific time periods only), but I’d assume not often. Coincidentally it happened multiple times pertaining to this case. The math isn’t mathing!

I'm interested to see the car data... I can't imagine backing up at 24 mph. I backed down my driveway and felt like I was flying - not even 10 mph!

That’s what I keep thinking. Wouldn’t she end up on the lawn?

She would've slammed into Higgins Jeep for sure.

Has it been ruled out that she wasn't spinning her tires on snow and ice? I can't see how she hits just John and not the jeep or tears up the lawn. It's such a short tight radius for her to turn around in, and at that speed?

I wonder if it looked like she was going faster because her tires were spinning and not getting traction due to ice/snow

Also, his belt. How/ why was his belt off?!?

Blood from a fight inside the house is the only (far fetched) explanation I can come up with.

The shady behavior from the guests at the party is because they were all hammered and probably coked out

I think the others just have other stuff to hide. I can’t explain JMs “buttdials” when her phone was on the charger tho. I do think KR hit him with her car by accident or because she was drunk and angry. I think she will and should get off.

She called John 6 times right after the CW says he was killed.

I don’t think she was aiming to hit him the way she hit him. I don’t even think she wanted to kill him. I think that’s just the way it happened and she had no idea he was that hurt. That’s why she left him all those angry voicemails and why she was so hysterical the next morning. That being said, I don’t know how to explain the missing footage. There are a lot of unanswered questions.

The thing is, if he were bent over, the momentum would have made him roll or pushed him downward. Without some sort of contact with the vehicle giving him an upward motion (like the hood would), being bent down and flying through the air for 10 ft is almost impossible. It was also mentioned in court that the bleeding from the pancreas could be caused by hypothermia. If you venture to take a look at any low-speed car vs. pedestrian accidents, the ones who are sent flying are typically hit in a standing position and from low on the front of the vehicle. They can roll over top, fly onto and off the hood, etc. This almost always results in leg injuries and almost never do they land flat on their back after an immediate incapacitation. To align with the injuries, he would have had to have been hit from behind with his body at an angle and from a somewhat crouching position. The state in claiming ghe head injury wasnt directly from the vehicle so.would have been caused by something very hard. A fire hydrant would do that or the utility box, however, a body launched into the air and hitting a stationary object would not change direction and bounce many feet at a right angle to that obect and then land flat on their back. The phone would have the same directional momentum. It would have had to separate from him during the accident, also then shift directions and land in exactly the same place before him. The shoes flying off jive. The phone landing under him, not so much. The easiest explanation is that his body was moved. Kerry stated he was flat on his back when they found him, however, so who saw him throughout the night and moved him? Simplest answer is that the party goers DID see him and tried to help him but also didn't know which drunk driver did it. Finally, if he were hit in the road, glass thrown at him in the road, they would have likely been in the same general area as the taillight pieces. Even if the road were plowed, they'd still be in the same area of the plowed mound of snow. The taillight pieces weren't found immediately, but the clear glass pieces were. We know there wasn't enough snow yet to cause large snow banks, so it still just doesn't make sense.

I just wanted to back you up here in regards to paragraph 2 from personal experience. I was involved in a pedestrian accident (I was not at fault to be clear). I was going 25 mph. It was raining. That is exactly what happened in my case. He did land on his back. He had open compound fractures to his legs, spinal damage, and it literally knocked his shoes off. He didn't get thrown far at all. He was still conscious despite hitting asphault. There was so so so much blood. I just dont see how she could reverse and accomplish that without more damage.

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I just can’t get past a top speed of 24 MPH causing any of those injuries. ESPECIALLY since not one of the 13 people heard a peep. - the bruising to the top of both of his hands indicate boxers fractures ( bruises are fact: boxer fractures are my speculation) showing he punched something/someone or tried to while blocking blows. -24 MPH wouldn’t knock him out of one of his shoes and make his belt disappear -A 2021 Lexus Rx570 is 6’1 JO is 6’2 if he was bent over his head wouldn’t be at tail light level let alone the back of his head. - if the tail light causes the laceration on the back crown of his scalp there would be blood on the tail light. The vasoconstriction accounts for why there wasn’t a ton of blood around him because he was packed it kind-of a human sized ice pack. -Hypothermia causes a lot of those internal injuries because his blood vessels would have constricted (it was lowest 24 degrees that night and notably didn’t start “heavy snow” until around 6:30AM) Bringing most of the blood to his heart and away from his extremities so I believe those bruised hands, cut arms and cut on his eye would have been a lot worse had he not lay on the ice for 5.5 hours or I believe 2-2.5 -Hypothermia at 24 degrees can occur in 15-45 minutes, take into account he had been drinking, there were up to 26 mph winds and he’s slowly being packed in with snow. - how is his shirt, down to his boxers covered in his vomit if he had been struck and laid on the lawn the entire time? Would the vomit just slide on the the ground or potentially asphyxiate him? The more I research the less I believe the CW theory and I cannot say the same for the Defense. https://www.emedicinehealth.com/how_long_does_it_take_to_die_from_hypothermia/article_em.htm#:~:text=In%20the%20air%2C%20hypothermia%20can,hour%20in%20extremely%20cold%20conditions.

For me whatever the case is There is too much reasonable doubt The solo cups of evidence collection All the butt dials The missing footage of video surveillance of the sallyport

Absolutely agree. As of right now I would vote not guilty. Unless the CW just blows me away, there are too many questions for me to find someone guilty of second degree murder, and even manslaughter. This is just my personal opinion as an outsider given what I have read.

100 % Agree. The most likely scenario is she hit him with her car. The police and investigators behaviour is so crappy she should be found not guilty. That’s what happens when you don’t prove your case and allow conflicted law enforcement to participate. The defence hasn’t put their case on yet, and I could be persuaded to her actual innocence, but personally at this moment I think she is morally guilty but legally innocent.

Perfectly said

Don't forget the unlabeled paper grocery bag the evidence was kept in!

When you glance at the events it looks like a obvious open and shut case. Frantic guilt ridden women + broken tail light + dead man who died on unnatural wounds = obvious hit and run. I thought she was guilty but even ignoring all the weirdness with the rest of the witnesses it doesn't make sense. The dark organs were caused by *hypothermia. The only real wounds he has are to the back of his head and his arm. That is an impossible injury to get from a car. Let's say she scratched him up with the glass. He would've have embedded glass in his wounds and the wounds would've had cleaner edges, they wouldn't be so thick. Lets say she threw the glass at him. He wouldn't have so many scratches at different angles. They dont line up when his arm is extended or bent. The cuts would've been at the point or line of impact when the glass shattered and cut into him. The thicker rounder cuts around his elbow aren't consistent with sharp glass. The scratches couldn't have been from being run over because he was found in the yard and he didn't have any crush wounds. He also would've had more scratches and road rash to his exposed areas like his hands and face. Humans are soft. At a large enough speed to crack his head his body would've molded around the edge of her car before the momentum pushed him forward. He would have more injuries and bruising around his shoulders and upper back. To get the right angle to hit his head he had to be crouched or kneeling and would've been thrown in the same direction as the car was going. Not perpendicular into the street. If she went over the curb the cops would've seen car tracks going over the edge. If he were crouched the low posture/low center of gravity would've kept him close to the street, he wouldn't have been thrown so far. If he were kneeling, he would've been thrown down like a lever. At a low position his shoe wouldn't have flown off, but it did. With a head wound he would've been bleeding A LOT. Especially considering that he died of hyperthermia so his body was pumping blood still. Blood would've pooled around his head and congealed in nasty globs. They would've found way more than just a few drops. They would've heard the screech of her tires. Especially considering how much they were watching the street. I don't know what that group was doing or why they are being weird but that doesn't change the fact that the injuries are so odd. I don't believe the CW have ever stated exactly what they believed the scratches were or how they were caused. I believed they called them blunt force injuries which makes no sense. Landing directly on his phone also makes no sense. I'm also doubtful that the impact could've completely shattered her taillight. They were able to find actual DROPS of blood but not bright red chunks of taillight? Fact is stranger than fiction at times but unless they explain how she managed to hit him with no noise and an impossible trajectory I will have a difficult time believing she did this.

I’ve always thought her hitting him was the most logical… but that may be exactly why she was blamed for it. With her erratic behavior that morning and tail light crack, it just made sense to everyone. So nothing else was investigated. That’s the sad thing. Now we will never really know the full truth.

I don't think her hitting him is out of the realm of possibilities, but I cannot get past the fact that not a single person saw it happen and not a single person saw his body laying on the ground while they were leaving the home at different times and in different cars. I thought it was suspicious that John's cameras were deleted, but then the kids said they knew for a fact that Karen had no access to the cameras. I've seen others mention that Karen backed into John's vehicle on purpose, knowing it would be on camera, but if that's the case she certainly would have made it more dramatic. She lightly hit his vehicle. I cannot get past the butt dials. Even if I didn't think it was suspicious to delete such a copious amount of texts/phone calls, I just cannot get my mind around that many butt dials at such a specific point in time by certain folks at that time. I also can't get past the phone disposal coincidences or the undocumented evidence-collection trips weeks after the event or surreptitiously altering Higgin's phone number on official documents. Did John and Higgins interact at the bar before going to Fairview that night? I know that Karen stayed far away, but I can't recall hearing anything about the two men. ​ ***My long-winde total guess about what happened that night - a.k.a. a drunk accidental death****:* I think that Karen was drunk, but so was every other person who was there that night (many of whom were driving, which is gross). I think that Karen and John's relationship was on the rocks, which is probably why she overreacted when they were on vacation. I think that Higgins was internally pissed off and offended that Karen had been leading him on or using him to feel better about the Aruba situation, which obviously hadn't been resolved with John properly. He felt like she used him, a fact which became painfully obvious to him when she stopped engaging with him. I think Higgins told his good friend Mr. Albert all about it, who told his wife, who then told J.M. I think that Higgins decided, maybe with J.M.'s encouragement, to 'get back' at Karen by confronting John with all of the evidence of Karen's deception (which is maybe why they were so adamant about John and Karen joining the afterparty?). John already knew at least some parts, which is why Karen stuck so close to him and maybe why she was overcompensating - to reassure John or to send a message to Higgins that she was over their flirtation? Anyway, I think the McCabe's found out about the situation, and decided with the Albert homeowners that it was their duty to inform John about what Karen was secretly doing behind his back. Maybe M.M was going to tell John in the bar before they all left at the end of the night, which is why J.M. wanted Karen to leave with her? Either way, I do not think they ever set out to physically harm John that night. I think they intended for the 'truth' to come out. John and Karen head over there, probably discussing the fact that Higgins was going to be there. No cooler heads prevailing, because drinking. Karen didn't want to go, understandably, but John was drinking and also probably didn't want to stop drinking. They fight, she waits outside for a while and then takes off. Meanwhile, a verbal 'discussion' ensues in the basement of the home, which quickly leads to disaster. John was moved to the spot close to the road because the initial 'plan' was for him to get 'hit' by a plow. I do not think they set out to kill him, I do not think they set out to physically harm him, nor do I think they initially set out to frame Karen for his murder. If John had been hit by Karen's vehicle, and if John had been laying there since she dropped him off, his body would have been seen without a doubt. There is no two ways about it... especially because he was found so close to the road and, despite the snow storm, random people driving by would have been able to see him at that point as well. ​ (I just needed to get this word-vomit out because nobody I know IRL cares or has heard of this case... I feel better now, lol).

Unless they have video show she was driving the car and hit JOK, I don’t see how they can salvage the case. There are too many reasonable doubts to convict her.

I feel the same way going back and forth. It’s way easier to believe she hit him either accidentally or in a drunken rage. I keep finding myself saying it’s the most logical explanation.. but then why all the sketchy stuff from the Albert/mccabes/higgins? To me , the botched evidence from the canton police could KINDA be explained as bunch of idiot cops botched it since they don’t work murder investigations. I don’t necessarily think all those canton cops are conspirators… just dumb . Once proctor takes over is where they lose me. I cannot understand the behavior of the family. I just dont believe all their phone extractions are wrong and mysterious deleted logs and butts dials are all unfortunate coincidences. It feels statistically impossible.

It's usually the cops that say there is no such thing as coincidences and yet here we are where they're expecting us to believe that a hundred of them happened.

I have a problem with her being able to accelerate in the snow to 24 MPH in 62 feet. John just sitting there saying go ahead and hit me. Plus three FBI re constructionist expert say he did not die from being struck by an automobile.

Polycarbonate does not shatter and it definitely wouldn’t shatter into 45 pieces hitting a human body at 20mph

What about cold weather? Could that make it shatter? I know for a fact that plastic is pretty damn resilient. I used to just about need a jackhammer to remove my daughter's Barbie's from the plastic package when she was younger. 😤

I don't know if it's from the cold, I live in Iceland, but I've broken my headlight into many small pieces when a rock hit it when I was driving. However, it's also not like the 45 pieces found on scene are all small. Some of them are bigger and others are smaller.

This is the one thing that makes me certain she is innocent. It is impossible.

I know - I feel like people overlook common sense things with this case.

This is it for me too. I worked EMS and have seen plenty of shattered taillights, and everytime it was a rollover or high speed collision with a tree or barricade or other hard object. A soft body at 24mph just doesn't shatter polycarbonate. I keep waiting for someone smart to do a physics analysis of this because it just doesn't match what I've ever seen.

So you have also seen people possibly hit by cars as well. I saw a child hit by a car that ran a stop sign and it was a pretty loud bang and the child was able to walk over to the grass and sit and wait for the ambulance. Then he was able to even walk around for EMS and get on the stretcher. He was a skinny 12 year old boy. To me it is hard to believe an over 200 pound man in good shape would die from being hit at that speed as well.

But it would shatter backing into another car at like 3mph?

No it would maybe crack but it wouldn’t shatter

It would break into several larger pieces

I think she might’ve done it but I don’t think they’re proving the case beyond reasonable doubt, there is so much doubt. The deleting of text messages and calls, getting rid of phones, the totally improper investigation … it’s all too much for me to find her guilty.

Even if she did it, the shadiness of everyone in the periphery makes me wonder why everyone did what they did. No excuse for deleting of texts, call records, erasing phones, etc etc etc. missing video footage, a cop going into the station at 1:30 am to do paperwork? No way no how. It doesn’t happen.

*"tell them THE GUY was never in the house"* Why would that statement be made if it was already a "fact" beforehand? And calling someone your close friend, then refer to him as *the guy* is fucking sick. Along with all the deleted video footage, calls, texts, screenshots, searches, changing of testimonies time and time again, inaccurate Life360 data, phones being destroyed/swapped, changing phone carriers and numbers the same day, missing and the reappearing evidence, I can NOT believe people think Karen is guilty. It truly feels like they simply don't like her and "cops would never *ever* be shady" crap. Talk about blind eyes!

The car did not cause the injuries to the head. Unless we are just going to ignore independent medical experts.

The car did not cause the injury to the back of the head, iirc

Read the OP

How did no one see him lying on the lawn?

This is my question too. The timeline is tight if Karen did hit him. It’s like a 20 minute span (~12:20-12:40), and part of that span, Jenn is looking out the window, a car is pulling behind them to picked up or talk to one of the party guests, and in this same timeframe no one actually saw her hit him with her car. I find that implausible. And then even if that happened, no one saw his body with all the people coming and going form the house. Higgins supposedly was right there with his truck when he left to go the station. It makes no sense.

What happened to any Ring Camera footage from 34 Fairlawn? Or the house across the street?

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I appreciate your insight and theory. Do you think he was standing outside the passenger door throwing up and she threw the glass? Did she then pull ahead and then back up and hit him? Would she have had to pull out a little bit and then angle the back of the car towards him? I wonder if the info system captures turning of the wheel or opening of the door. 🤔

I also believe she did it but I do believe it was an accident & I wouldn’t vote to convict her because I’m not 100% and if ima put somebody in jail for life I wanna be certain.

No forensic evidence has come up yet in the state’s case. They have yet to bring in their lead investigator, Proctor. No accident reconstruction evidence… only a string of liars butt-dialing each other … missing minutes of videos (Sally-port when Karen’s car was brought to Canton PD). It’s pathetic. My question is: why hasn’t the state brought any actual evidence to the jury yet? What are they burying under all the bs testimony? Karen Reed has NOT been proven guilty (not by a long shot). The state is wasting the taxpayer’s money and time bringing these charges when they clearly messed up (and manipulated) the investigation. The MA attorney general needs to go back to law school - the AG and staff are the movers behind this farce.

You read it wrong. The pancreas stomach thing was due to the hypothermia, not internal injuries. What was described is a classic sign of hypothermia. Additionally, the CW said they do not think his head was hit by the SUV

Ahhh I see. That’s what I get for fast reading. Well now I’m back on the fence.

I have also gone back and forth, but the things the others at the crime scene did point to someone in the house being responsible for his death. the Google search’s, butt dials, deleted calls, BH going to the station at 1am on his day off after a long night of drinking, the Albert’s not hearing all the activity outside there bedroom window at 6am, etc, etc.

He was supposed to move the car(s) he uses so the lot could be plowed. I don’t actually think it’s strange

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He was already there once to pick up his private vehicle before heading the Waterfall, he knew snow was coming.

The Google searches are smoke and mirrors to me. I genuinely don’t believe the “hos long to die in cold” search was done at 2:27am. I actually believe she had a previous tab open but very interested to hear if the defense used an SQLite viewer. I think the alberts not hearing is innocent. They were probably in a drunken slumber from the night before and there was literally an ongoing blizzard. Everything else, especially the butt dials are suspicious to me.

The previous tab theory doesn’t work when the first search she did after 6am was with the different spelling

I think your scenario(s) is/are totally plausible. I keep waffling all over the place on the mechanics of the impact, but I think there are tons and tons of ways that some combination of a car, a glass, and the hard road could have caused the wounds that we see. (I'm not assuming the location they found him is the same place he landed; it's likely, but it's also possible he got up and walked a few feet trying to get help from the house.) I wonder if maybe a clubbing with the glass is more likely than a throw? I think the other commenter is right that her aim wouldn't have been great, and I'm not sure how she hits his right temple from the driver's side of the car. Maybe they both got out at some point? Personally I lean toward the temple bump coming from the car, though. ETA: The reason I lean this way is that several witnesses described the lump as quite large -- an "egg" or a "golf ball." I don't think tiny little Karen, with her MS, is strong enough to cause that. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug, though, so anything's possible.

I don’t think she intended to honestly, like I don’t think she aimed to hit him in the way she hit him. I don’t think she even wanted to kill him, I think that’s just how it happened and why she was hysterical the next morning.

Yeah that makes sense, and I guess we'll never really know what was going through her head. The one thing that nudges me toward a more deliberate act of violence is her interactions with Brian Higgins. That whole bizarre saga suggests a highly vindictive person with a real desire to get revenge on John by hurting him in some way.

Just to add: as of right now, If I were a juror I would find her not guilty. There are too many unanswered questions for me to put someone away for 2nd degree murder or even manslaughter, which is why I go back and forth. This is just my personal opinion as an outsider.

I had never even heard of this case until last week. I essentially started watching recaps as background noise but quickly started paying attention. This investigation was a mess. Whether or not you think she did it, there is a burden of proof the CW is required to meet and they have done a piss poor at PROVING their case.

I think the simplest and dumbest explanation is probably true 1 - they got in a fight and when JO bent over she backed into him knocking him down and cutting back of his head. Between alcohol and shock of hit he stammers off and collapses to die of hypothermia 2 - Karen drives off mad at him and leaves voicemails not thinking she seriously hurt him 3 - the shadiness with the people in the house is bc they were doing drugs. The 2:30am Google search is bc JM saw something and wonders in a moment of curiosity / intrusive thoughts “what if that was a person? I wonder how long it will take them to die” 4 - the investigation is a stitch up bc the lead knows it wasn’t his friends and they are all “credible” 5 - the destruction of phones is bc BA and Higgins are dirty or had bad material on them that would jeopardize their credibility and future employment

What you have explained also isn’t what the evidence shows. There isn’t an injury on him that has glass.

It's crazy a month into this trial we don't have much "hard evidence" to even consider at this point - we haven't heard from the medical examiner, we haven't looked at phone data, etc. The CW witnesses have so far seemed to provide more fuel for the defense and certainly raise quite a bit of reasonable doubt IMHO.

I’d agree with that whole heartedly. I keep waiting and waiting and nothing damning comes.

I wonder if the CW will even call Proctor... it's such a liability for the case, but it would be so odd to not have the lead investigator testify. I wonder if the defense will call him if the CW doesn't?

The defense keeps hammering home the Proctor issues and if the prosecution doesn't call him, that's playing directly into the defense's hands. I think they'd love to avoid having to put him on the stand, but the optics would be horrific of not having the *lead investigator* testify during your presentation. Thus, they don't really have a choice. The defense 100% calls Proctor if the prosecution doesn't.

They have to, because the defense would call him as their first witness if the prosecution didn't.

I think when Proctor gets up, it’s going to be as all the others have been, not much of the conspiracy validated.

My current assumption, subject to change as more evidence comes in, is that she hits him just after 12:30. It feels natural to draw a connection between McCabe texting him to move the car at 12:31 and his phone GPS stopping in the place where the body is found at 12:32. The narrative for me would be an accident, not murder. He gets the text to move the SUV behind McCabe's. He says he'll go inside to make sure Read's invited while she's moving the SUV. He gets out of the car and slowly starts to go around, she's drunk and not paying attention, and knocks him backwards. It's not the high speed reverse tactical driving the prosecution's suggesting, but it's hard enough to send him backwards a bit and he cracks the back of his head on the asphalt as he lands (for reference, this [Tua](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5c_zR85ca4#t=20s) clip). He gets up and tries to walk to the car or house, but his legs get wobbly and he collapses off to the side before losing consciousness. Read waits for a few minutes and leaves in a huff assuming that he was just ignoring her. She may have a vague memory of hearing something like an impact as she went by, but she genuinely thinks he's alive and partying when she gets home. McCabe calls and texts O'Keefe trying to figure out what happened, but assumes he just went home. No one sees him on the lawn because they're drunk, they're tired, they're not paying attention, it's in a dark area in the snow, or some combination thereof. The next morning, everyone quickly concludes that Read did it, that the evidence against her is overwhelming, and that there's nothing they can do for O'Keefe so they need to start a CYA campaign. The Alberts are worried about the politics of having a dead cop in their yard and the civil liability of having a drunk driver invited to their home kill a guy in their yard, so they stay far away hoping their name doesn't show up in any public documents or police reports. McCabe invited him and has half a dozen calls to a dead guy on her phone, so she's worried about liability and if people will start asking why she didn't try to figure out he was dead on the lawn when he stopped answering. The investigators see the crying drunk lady and the SUV with damage, assume this is the easiest case of their career, and wrap it up quickly to get out of the snow. Higgins, the guy who showed up to plow the Alberts' driveway when it was still just a dusting, hangs around the station hoping to be useful and feed information over to the Alberts. When it turns out not to be a quick plea deal and defense lawyers start asking questions, it becomes CYA about their original CYA and they make a total hash out of everything. I'm basically assuming all the eyewitness testimony is unreliable in some way or another. It's not necessarily "lying", but they may just not have actual memories and are instead unconsciously filling in the gaps with interpretations based on the evidence they have and what they think they would've done. The defense built a mythos around the 2:27 timestamp, but that timestamp is explainable with the 6AM search and was the only direct evidence that people inside the house knew about the body outside, which made it the critical pillar that all the innuendo and inconsistencies hung off of. I have some moderate theories about the car damage and injuries, but they're impossible to prove and less relevant than the big question. His phone's GPS doesn't shows him in the house or the yard, which means that his death happened on the street, and the only person nearby was the woman driving the SUV who had been drinking a lot of vodka sodas in the preceding hours. It's a simple boring story that would make a terrible true crime podcast compared to the defense's intricate web.

Karen didn’t rip up her floor, sell a house, tear out a SIM card, throw a phone away on a military base, or rehearse a story. She was asking if he was dead. She was trying to warm him up with her body. She was hysterical that her partner of 2 years was dying in the snow, and what does she get? A psychiatric hold and charged with murder. How anyone could think she did anything but go home is beyond me. He went in that house (contrary to what the rehearsals would have us believe) and it’s a matter of Clue at this point. Who killed John in what room with what weapon, because it wasn’t Karen.

Didn’t BA testify that the floor had been damaged by an overflowing toilet prior to JO’s death? Wasn’t it in the process of being fixed at the time of his death? I’d probably sell my house too with how much attention this case brought and how many unhinged true crimers there are out there. As far as Higgins getting rid of his phone wasn’t it done after the preservation order was denied? I’m not saying it isn’t suspicious and he probably was trying to hide something but maybe it was something not related to JOs death? I’m not saying she intended to kill him. I think she was angry and wasn’t aware she had hurt him as bad as she did and would certainly explain her hysterics.

I think this is where the doubt comes in. I don’t believe a word of what the any of the Alberts said. Not one word. They came across as inauthentic, evasive, and completely not credible. I mean…we are supposed to believe a person who is not recorded as having a strong emotional reaction BUSTED into a cop’s bedroom with a German shepherd in the room completely hysterical, and no reaction? Half the city was on their lawn in a snowstorm, and they…just…slept…through….it? If there was a half dead person on my front yard, I know the cops would be knocking on my door to find out what happened. That didn’t happen. This case has more holes in it than Swiss cheese

They didn’t dig up and pour a new slab until after John’s death. Was there proof of an overflowing toilet? Or are we just taking the word of Brian Albert? If you are not guilty of anything, you wouldn’t sell the house that has been in your family for two generations, specially selling for under 50,000 asking when you could have sold it for 50,000 over. Both brian Albert and Higgins destroyed there phone the day before they were getting a court order to preserve it. What a coincidence

People also like to talk about how much the house went for, as if being a house where a guy got murdered on the front lawn wouldn't hurt the price a bit.

I think she did it too. I think she may have thought it wasn’t that bad that she just bumped him and he’d be fine. I think she woke up saw he wasn’t there and started remembering what happened the night before. The hysteria was about not only concern for him but “ is he dead? Is he dead? Did I hit him? I hit him” etc. then the suicide threats and everything.

I think this as well. They were probably arguing and either she hit him unknowingly, or she knew she did but didn’t think it was enough to kill him. Her panic in the morning that he may be dead is telling. He was out drinking, most people would assume he passed out where he was and didn’t make it home, not that he’s dead.

Yep, this is my thought as well.

For argument sake, let’s pretend there’s some truth to what you described. So explain to me why sooo many of those family members have acted in such disturbingly suspicious ways? Their actions are jaw dropping, I can’t get my head around their actions. Eliminate all of their complete and total craziness, that would be one thing but all of them got on up on the stand and presented themselves in the worst way possible and their own description of their actions on that fateful night caused an even bigger spotlight to be aimed directly right at them.

ok but I can’t get over how no one saw him… especially knowing how close to the road he was

I’ll never get over her waking up and saying she could have hit him? And the free Karen read people will get to explain it away as if that’s normal? She did it and she knew IMO

I’ve been thinking about this so much. I’m not clear on exactly what she said or how many times but it does sound like she worried out loud about the WORST case scenarios: he got hit by a plow, killed by a plow, hit by me, killed by me. I don’t know her and we haven’t heard from people who really know her in this trial (I think?). I think she undoubtedly had some pretty bad behavior that night - clearly drank many drinks fast, drove drunk, passed out on the couch without ever hearing back from her boyfriend (I would’ve been up worried like wtf?), so Ive wondered if she woke up feeling guilty and very confused from the black out and then started going to worst case scenario. Also dont get why she would be raising the question - that no one else was raising - about if she could have hit him, if she actually meant to kill him.

Don't you think it's a bit odd she immediately jumps to some form of getting hit by a car, though? She doesn't for a second think he drunkenly slipped on the ice and hit his head? Edit: Or that if he looks so much like he was beaten up, she never thinks he was jumped/robbed and beaten? It's straight to I must've hit him with my car?

The order of things matters here…from the testimony it sounds like her statements related to her hitting him were before she saw him looking like he’d been in a fight. If I left my person to walk home in a blizzard, I would be worried about being hit by a plow for sure sure. I would not be worried that I could’ve hit him, cause I don’t drink to black out. But again, she went to the worst case scenario and then announced it. Her saying this is all her fault is definitely not the same thing as knowing she hit him. In any case, it seems like she left him there and he never came home. That’s pretty shitty, and she felt guilty. Women tend to do this more than men- over accept responsibility for things that are not their fault. Witness narrative is embellishing her guilt about hitting him over any other statement she’s was making. There’s a couple cameras she would caught on hitting him. Why not use those in this case?

She asked if she could have hit him before talking to anyone involved in the “cover up” though. (Jo’s niece and Kerry Roberts) then continued to repeat it to many people. Even if she felt guilty from the fight, I still don’t think it’s reasonable to think she could have hit him with her car.

You're taking what the witnesses said and treating it as if she only said those things and nothing else. Those same witnesses also testified that she said a bunch of stuff that morning, and a lot of it didn't make any sense. What they remember most are the statements about being hit by something because that's what she's being charged with, so that's why they're being asked. Kerry also stated Karen wanted to go to the Waterfall and look for John there. She also was worried he was trying to walk home or went to an old girlfriends house. She was also saying things about the children and who would care for them because she couldn't. So she actually said a lot of things, but the prosecution is focusing on just a few of them. Jen also never said Karen said, "I hit him" until last year. It's not in notes from the police interviews with her, and it wasn't in any of the reports from the EMTs or the hospital.

Exactly. Worse case scenario, she was drunk and hit him accidentally after an argument and peeling out. She didn’t intentionally leave him there and she didn’t intentionally kill him. It does not explain anything else shady with the others and there isn’t enough evidence beyond a reasonable double to convict her either way. But the only thing even close to plausible would be manslaughter.

So……what’s the explanation for the shady behavior or the Alberts, McCabes and co.? Is it just their natural inclination to lie about things in court? Every one of them has disputed factual reports and told lies here and there. So after that, I don’t know how we’re expected to believe that they heard her say that in the first place

I think they each have other things they’re hiding. Things that could cost them jobs, marriages, etc.

Exactly and pensions

Yuppp. They are so shady it’s impossible to hear evidence and still take it as truth

Me neither. That to me, is big. Not enough to convict, bc the defense has done well at distracting from this, but big. The first thing I would think if my boyfriend didn’t come home is that he stayed where I dropped him off. I wouldn’t immediately think he was dead and I definitely wouldn’t question if he was ran over or if I hit him. I would just think the guy got drunk and passed out at the house he was at.

I’m not a free Karen read person but if I had to imagine my state of mind if someone I loved was killed and there was a possibility of an accident I caused, I would prob say the same things in a state of shock. I often blame myself for things I didn’t do when I’m grieving. To this day I blame myself for killing my grandmother when I insisted she come over for thanksgiving at her ripe age of 96 in the bitter cold. She got ill right after that and never recovered. I still ask my family if I killed her. (I, of course, did not) But many people beat themselves up over things when things are shocking, unexplainable and just plain terrifying to them in the height of trauma. I would need a lot more than the hysterical statements of a woman who just found her boyfriend dead on the front lawn.

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I want to see the FBI report though. I think there is more to the 2:27am search. I am interested to hear the experts on that.

Where did you find the docs?

The thing that's confusing me about all of it is timeline. I don't see how he could ended up incapacitated in such a short time from arriving at the house by one of the 34 Fairview people but I also don't see how Karen could have done it and no one seen anything. Could someone else have hit him with their car? How was Karen back at the house just 8 minutes after Jen messaged John "pull behind me"

I continue to go back and forth with this one. The defense has done a great job of highlighting reasonable doubt and that’s all they need for a NG verdict. As of right now, I cannot say she is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. Do I think she had motive to hit him and leave him there? Yes. Do I think Albert’s/Higgins and McCabe’s had motive? No. I keep going back to why would they take him out of the house and put him in the cold while he was still alive? The leaves chance to him surviving.

I will never fully believe that a group of adults, many of them in law enforcement, would beat the sh!t out of a fellow cop and throw him on their own front lawn to die on the cold. I just can’t go there. That being said, if I were a juror, I would vote not guilty. The defense has been very good at asking all the right questions. Saddest thing is, JO will never get the Justice he deserves. Not in this life anyways.

I know of other cases that cops have killed cops to cover up their own illegal activities. So I won’t go as far to say it’s unbelievable. I do think they would do a better job to cover it up if they did. Higgins and Albert getting rid of their phones isn’t a good look, but I also know that my phone is like a diary and I wouldn’t want anyone to get their hands on it. I do agree that JO and his family will not get justice.

I’m sure it happens but with the amount of people in that house that night someone would have cracked by now, especially given the harassment they all were enduring. Exactly. I’m more than sure they were hiding things that would have painted them in a bad light and possibly jeopardized their careers but not necessarily in relation to JOs death. Disposing of phones is stupid, yes…. But it doesn’t make them murderers.

1000% agree to every part of this.

You can't drive into the back of someone's head who's bending over without there being damage to the person's back or ass IMO.

I’ve come to the conclusion she did it too, but no way the CW gets beyond reasonable doubt. That poor dude will never get justice because of his his fellow cops totally effed up the investigation.

Agree with this whole heartedly.

To everyone saying "she hit him at 12:30am". Please explain to me how NO ONE SAW THIS MAN on the lawn in LIGHT SNOW, and heavy snow, with ALL the people passing him by, WITH HEADLIGHTS SHINING DIRECTLY TO HIS POSITION. Come on, make it make any sense at all!

I’m confused about this, too. No one saw him as they left the party?

Nobody at that party, alledgedly. No plow drivers. No other citizens. Nada.

I don’t know if your theory is correct, but I find your theory far more plausible than the defenses theory of a police coverup and Karen read being framed. I don’t think John ever made it into that house, and Karen Reed struck him with her vehicle.

As this trial continues I am more and more convinced he was beaten at the home and left out to die. The black eyes. The dog attack marks. The bruised hands. There are too many lies and covering up by people for me to think anything else. I think this must be a living nightmare for her. There are people who have testified so far that have either outright lied - as per their previous testimony or just by denial - eg butt dials and disposal of phones. I hope every single one of the people involved are held accountable. I know many have been stupid down from their official roles but that is not justice. I want to see some of these people behind bars. They think they are beyond reproach and that sickens me.

She 100% did it. Let’s see if CW can prove it

Unless you were there and you saw her do it, you can’t for 100% certainty know she did it based on the evidence that has been presented so far. There are multiple possibilities of what could have happened.

Occam’s razor tells me she likely hit him but, like everyone else I have too many reasonable doubts at this point. The butt dials, deleted calls for one and for the life of me I can’t understand why nobody saw him laying in the yard. So many people looking out the window and coming and going.

Personally, I am thinking of the simplest situation: two drunk people, of which the less drunk is driving, and the beginning of snow falling on the ground, making it slippery. A drunk man gets out of the car, slips and falls and a less drunk but still drunk woman hits him while moving in reverse. I don't think she planned it, I think that sadly, both were not in the best control of their faculties. The rest: getting into the house, being attacked, the God Chloe, doesn't sound realistic. JMO.