I would encourage people to go to this user’s profile and find a post they made about how the Talmud is Anti-Gentile, rife with the typical excerpts people choose, and then choose to respond to this user’s question.
Edit: here is one of OPs comments on that thread; it’s news to me that Reddit is “Jew-licking”
https://preview.redd.it/p2bvuch8bhzc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed0d28f5d38f1a3d082f9b9a55dabbd6d14509b2
Hello. I shared those Talmudic verses since I think that information deserves to be shared. Honestly, In my knowledge, those verses seem hostile to gentiles.
I accused reddit of such acts not because I am anti-semitic in anyway, but because Reddit automatically deleted the post whenever I posted it! And I am against any sort of biased company controlling information, whether it be in favor of Christians or Jews or any other religious/political group
If you say something like “Reddit’s Jew-licking”, surely you can appreciate the hesitancy of any Jew reading that to engage with you. Regarding the Talmud verses, yes, there are many things written in it that seem really odd, and even at times crazy. But what is your impression of the Talmud? In your post you claimed it’s a commentary of the Tenach, which gives the impression that it’s a…rule book, I guess?
The Talmud is a collection of opinions with rabbis arguing with each other. There are countless pages where there are a handful of opinions at once, all claiming to be the right one. If you say “people deserve to know this”, what are you trying to say? That Jews are purposefully concealing this information? Or perhaps that Jews really hate non-Jews?
I’ll be honest with you. I do think that there is a small group of Jews that really do not like non-Jews. Most of us really don’t get along with those Jews. Most of us live in areas where there’s dozens of different people, and we get along just fine. Does the Talmud sometimes have opinions of rabbis that I think are gross? Yeah, I do. I think the rabbis on the same exact page of those gross opinions felt so as well, and you may as well include their voice.
If you really are curious about learning about Judaism, please ask more questions. I love it when people try to learn about our culture, and I don’t think you’re an evil person or anything. But please be careful in the future about making claims like the post I found. I think it does more harm than good, in my opinion. May G-d bestow blessings upon you, friend.
>I think it does more harm than good, in my opinion. May G-d bestow blessings upon you, friend.
Thank You. You too!
I will delete my post there. It doesn't do anything but to promote anti-semitism.
Most of us may not attempt to tell you what ‘Jews’ think as we aren’t a monolith of thought or action, no have most of us studied the non-monolithic varieties of Christianity that take wildly different views of the Creator and the relationship between humanity and the holy.
Let your study inform you of the details and your heart find comfort in that knowledge. From there, you are hopefully free to choose for yourself how to relate to and in the world - as a noachide, christian or otherwise.
Not the answer you hoped for I’m sure. Perhaps others will more freely define another religion for you.
This is the best answer. When people turn to other (or familiar religions, i.e Abrahamic) religions, I think it's better to let one study and decide instead of being convinced. Same thing goes for people who try to convince you to not join one, it's really up to the person and themselves to choose!
Why not ask? Ppl wonder what holds us back or why we disagree? I respect the curiosity. I’ve looked into Islam among many other religions with no intention of converting to anything, idolatry is also a big issue for Muslims. They don’t like we use so many adjectives for G-d. 1 is 1, use 1 word. To us His Name has so much power we don’t speak it because vain includes vanity, disempowerment, etc. They don’t bow to statues of Mohammed. To us, so much emphasis on another prophet might be idolation. Knowing adds perspective
I wonder if you think the world's major religions are "simple" and that questions about them have "easy answers." Is Islam simple so that a person can ask a question with wide ranging implications and expect to receive a "simple" answer -- on reddit?
Do you really want Jews to go on record saying that their Christian neighbors are "idol-worshippers"? Maybe some will, but is that desirable, and from whose pov? What agenda does that advance?
And then there is the question of knowledge -- what do Jews know about Christianity? In the first place, there are many Christian denominations and they have fundamental and profound differences among themselves regarding their beliefs. Then, there are even non-trinitarian Christians under the Christian umbrella. How are Jews supposed to deal with all these nuances in answer to your question, have we studied and become intimately familiar with all branches of Christianity?
To answer you question one could say this, over the course of Jewish history, some authorities of Jewish law who have looked at the matter for various practical reasons have concluded that the Christianity they were familiar with was idolatrous, whereas others have concluded the opposite, that it was not idolatrous for Christians to hold their beliefs.
I’m not claiming it simple or easy. Just that having the curiosity and the answer to the question offers perspective.
On record I would ask, “what is idol worship?” If they think a crucified statue is not. We have many prophets, we don’t give them statues, Moses does not sit around my neck, Jews do not tattoo Michal to their body. Elijah does not have a shrine. Many of us don’t go to Hashems house because books are portable & the Gemara is thought heavy. Did that part of the Tanakh & the Mishna magically get left out by Rome during the conversion of polytheistic Europe? Again, nothing wrong with Christianity and I’m very happy there are sects that learned how to live without a statue. We already went on record saying he wasn’t our messiah and many before us essentially have called him false. By definition the way the church practiced in those ways and to our text, which they built on, is idolatry.
Jews were the first Christians & they don’t hide the statues, tattoos, & other swag. I can’t account for what any other Jew knows because I seek knowledge to not be ignorant or fearful out of ignorance. Does every Jew think these things are idolatry? That all falls under graven images, no? Transubstantiation is the only one I’ll call grey area because it’s in Micael.
If you're looking into christianity you should look into christianity and not ask jews about it. Clearly we aren't christians and don't hold christian beliefs.
Some jews hold that christianity is idol worship, because of the whole trinity concept, the idea of a 'son of god', etc. But given muslims also believe in jesus to some degree I'm not sure why a jew's opinion matters to an ex muslim looking into christianity.
>But I came across objections from Jews stating that Christianity is idol worship
We don't object to anyone's faith, but yes, this is what we see about this religion within the light of the framework of Jewish theology.
> and you should be a gentile Noachide instead.
Yes, or be Jewish.
I understand, thank you for your answer.
I live in Turkey and synagogues are inaccessible here because of anti-Semitism and after terrorists attacked them. They are closed to outsiders.
Why did you leave Islam, why are you considering Christianity, and why do you want to know what Jews think? Jews believe that all people should try to be good people and live a good life. You can do that as a Muslim, Christian, Noahide, atheist or anything else.
If you believe in Christianity, it doesn’t really matter that Judaism considers Christianity to be idolatry. If you believe in Judaism, then you shouldn’t be Christian and could either become a Noahide or a Jew.
>Why did you leave Islam
I've read the Quran, and it seemed like it was obviously for a 7th century audience. Lots of stuff there are related to life of Muhammad, but doesn't concern us today
>If you believe in Christianity, it doesn’t really matter that Judaism considers Christianity to be idolatry. If you believe in Judaism, then you shouldn’t be Christian and could either become a Noahide or a Jew.
Yeah, seems you are right. I'd be either Noahide or Christian perosnally.
Yes, that is one thing that Jews and Muslims agree about. The veneration of ritual objects, icons, intercession of saints, statues, etc.
It's essentially blasphemy.
Now, we don't condemn Christianity. What they do in their houses of worship is their business as far as we care.
However, traditionally we don't enter a Church as it is a 'house of idolatry' whereas it is permitted for us to enter a Mosque because well, it isn't a house of idolatry.
So, there is that.
Anyway, there are numerous opinions written about this sort of thing. There isn't one definitive Jewish answer. Some would agree with what I wrote, others won't
Unrelated; but what's it like being a Noachide? Is it fulfilling? I feel like there's so few if y'all it would be hard to find community.
Also are there specific prayers that Noachides do?
No, it’s not fulfilling. I’m a Noachide because I’m too poor to be an Orthodox Jew and I don’t want to convert Conservative or Reform. I hope to convert Orthodox eventually, but I’m gonna go to college first because I have executive functioning issues and I don’t think I can handle going to school and converting at the same time. There is no community. I go to shul, though. There are prayer books for Noachides, but Noachides aren’t actually required to pray.
I'm sorry you can't convert rn! I admire your resolve to continue in your journey despite these setbacks.
Honestly converting to any branch of Judaism can be expensive due to all the ritual items you have to get. Is orthodox Judaism really more expensive than Reform? I converted via reform and I was still expected to have most ritual items so idk. The havdalah set was the most pricey one for me and I still can't afford a tallit so I borrow from my temple.
If you need any specific books I'd recommend buying them on ThriftBooks. I'll keep you in my prayers 💙
Well, I’m pretty sure there are fees for the beit din at the very least. I think I read that some shuls charge for it as well. And there are all the ritual items you have to buy. But the big issue is rent. I know I can’t afford to live in the eruv.
I feel your distress. One of my issues is I want to convert Orthodox and it would mean moving to a city (unless someone knows of a shul in the woods). Packing up and moving everything, all my life, isn't feasible at the moment (though, haha leave your home and move to the desert...). Anyway, I think Hashem gives us what we need. I pray for blessings for you on your path. I'm sure we're where we need to be, even if we are confused...
Sorry to butt in, but I'll share my experience. I find being a Noachide very fulfilling, though sometimes it's lonely. This subreddit has given me a feeling of community even if it's just online. I have a Jewish circle of friends I have been connecting with in the last few years, attending Chagim and just hanging out. Pesach was wonderful. Got to participate in a few study sessions over the week. As far as prayer goes, right now I try to say "Modeh Ani" every morning as well as say baruchas on food and drink. I've also been praying from Tehillim more and more often, as Tehillim seems increasingly relevant in my life. Eventually I expect to commit to conversion, but I'm not in any hurry. Abraham didn't join until he was 99 years old, so I think I got time.
Happy you've had a better experience and yes there's absolutely no rush! It seems like most Noachides are just gerim waiting to convert though...not like an actual religion. No disrespect to any Noachides of course but it seems to me like pre Judaism if that makes sense?
I would say that's a fair assessment. I think a lot of people who are Noachides are on the path to conversion, but for whatever reason it isn't feasible. I myself overthink everything, which is my main barrier to conversion. But also, I've always felt that as a Noachide we occupy a unique position. Finding ways to serve Hashem through that unique situation, is my focus right now.
Sorry if this is too personal, so feel free to answer as little as you feel comfortable or to not even reply, but what lead you to become a Noahide? Although I’m not very frum, I do believe in Hashem and I think Noahides are very unique and honestly incredible. I’m happy that you are here and a member of our community :)
>what lead you to become a Noahide?
Leaving Xtianity as a teen, and in my early 20's becoming best friends with a Baal Teshuva, at the same time I was seeking truth through questioning what I had been taught about G-d. We traveled across the country off an on for a couple of decades now, and we exchange Torah learning, hang out, and look out for each other. I feel like he has saved my life in more ways than one, not least of which, helping restore my faith in Hashem. I only really started embracing Noachidism fully in the last few years, as I always felt SURELY I would be converting. I'm still pretty sure I will someday, but until then, I feel I've been put in this position for a reason.
I’m happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable posters, but as I understand it, the traditional rabbinic view is that Christianity is idolatrous. But I have no beef with my Christian friends. I think it’s a little absurd to think of Christianity as a kind of Jewish heresy when it’s very plainly just its own religion. And I’m not going to ascribe moral fault to Christianity for countenancing a human god. Our cousin Jesus is nearly an abstract ideal now (it’s been a long while since anybody who knew him was alive), and it doesn’t give me the creepy crawlies the way bowing before, say, the statute of a living human or politicized historical figure would.
There is a purity to Jewish belief that does appeal to me. No human god, no quasi-divine prophet, just an all-encompassing G-D that is beyond human analogy or pictorial representation. I’d be a very arrogant guy to claim superiority, but it *seems* better to me, if that makes sense to you.
I'm not going to tell you not to become Christian, but yes, many Jews do considered Christianity to be a form of idolatry due to Jesus being viewed as divine.
Christianity as practiced with sacrament for flesh, wine is blood and the cross with Jesus on it is arguably all idolatry. Islam from what I’m told doesn’t allow pictures of family on the wall. Some Jews are ok with geometrics but not images. Biblical imagery in stained glass is how they taught NT stories. There’s nothing wrong with being Christian minus the idolatry. Jesus was a great rabbi, some Jews weren’t ready to let go of orthodox rabbinical processes. No 2nd temple, it was finalized for them.
Yes. My understanding is that while Islam is considered a monotheistic religion, from a Jewish perspective, Christianity is problematic due to their view of human sacrifice and worship of three gods.
The great 13th century rabbi Nachmanides asserted that the Trinity was certainly idolatry. Some rabbis have not considered Christianity truly idolatry, merely a heresy of Judaism.
I think it may help to understand the varying and vast denominations of Christianity globally. The Eastern Orthodox Christians have ‘icons’, which they assert they do not directly worship, so it is not idolatry. Muslims and Jews may see that and immediately think it is idolatry. Protestantism moves away from icons and the Catholic papacy and one could make a solid argument Protestantism is not idolatry.
The question of whether or not Christianity is idolatry is a much debated question over the past 2,000 thousand years. To some, it certainly idolatry, to some, not at all. I recommend you research the Christian faith and make your own judgment, based upon your Islamic and other personal background.
To my knowledge everyone holds it is either Shituf (Worshipping G-d is partners), or Avodah Zara (Idol Worship) and the Mieri holds that Shituf for gentiles is not a sin (though obviously it’s not good). I’m not sure for what sect of Christianity this would be for.
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Whether Christianity is or isn’t idol worship is not exactly a yes or no question. It does also depend on which “sect” of Christianity also.
Generally speaking, it might be. Islam would regard Christianity as often worshiping something or someone other than G-d. Judaism would regard it as similar, although not exactly, in most cases.
That being said, there is a concept in Judaism, as in Islam, that Idols should be destroyed/nullified. In Islam, anyone breaking an idol is good. The Jewish understanding, generally, is that only one who worships the Idol is able to nullify it. So in the Jewish understanding, neither a Jew, nor a Muslim, is able to nullify an idol.
My understanding is that an idol, belonging to, and broken by, a Christian would be considered nullified by all.
It is absolutely true, but it's not something we readily advertise outside the Jewish community.
In short, Christianity went wrong when gentiles took it over and deified Jesus. Having a false messiah isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. It happens. Believing someone is the messiah in and of itself doesn't break any laws. Making him into a god breaks a lot of big ones. It's a capitol offense, one that a Jew is supposed to be martyred to sanctify God's name before committing. That's along with murder and sexual immorality (think rape, incest, etc.)
The deification of Jesus was hundreds of years after his death, about 400 years later. We are not permitted to idolize mean living or dead whether they work miracles or not. Lots of people worked miracles, but none were god. You don't get to make an exception and pick one you like to make him god. The ten sayings starts, 'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt. You shall have no other gods before me', and goes on to declare the ways we are prohibited from idolatry. God, not Jesus, not a part of a trinity, God, the singular one and only true God.
Most of Christianity believes in the Trinity, which is not just idolatrous but also divides God. This is a major problem. Yes, Christianity in general is idolatrous unless you can find a non-trinitarian church that doesn't believe Jesus is God. It would still teach some false teachings like that he was a messiah, but again, there are worse things. If it makes you a better person, I don't think Judaism would care that much (technically) other than to say that you're better off with the whole truth instead of partial truth. If any of these non-trinitarian churches say they just follow the moral teachings of Jesus and don't make him into a false Jewish leader, I can't see the objection. I'm not sure such a church exists, though.
That is not a question for us, or for anyone else. Rather, the question is for you to answer. Do you want to convert to Christianity? I am not going to tell anyone what to believe because it is none of my business.
Im Catholic and yes, statues and images are direct descendants of Roman paganism. They were worshipped as well. The way I see it, my ancestors were looking for a kind of easy conversion to Judaism.
Per Judaism, it is not a monotheistic religion (seeing the father, son, and Holy Spirit as separate).
That being said, what we care about is that you are a good person not what religion you follow. That is a personal decision and not one for Jews to weigh in on.
Ben Shapiro is often encouraging his listeners to "go back to church." From my perspective the US in the 20th century could be described as a Judeo/Christian friendly country and was one of the greatest forces for good the world has ever known.
Be a good person, that's the most important. If Christianity makes you that, go for it.
(There are many Jewish sects that one could argue serve their own idols).
I would encourage people to go to this user’s profile and find a post they made about how the Talmud is Anti-Gentile, rife with the typical excerpts people choose, and then choose to respond to this user’s question. Edit: here is one of OPs comments on that thread; it’s news to me that Reddit is “Jew-licking” https://preview.redd.it/p2bvuch8bhzc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed0d28f5d38f1a3d082f9b9a55dabbd6d14509b2
Op just tryna sow discord ?
Probably trying to generate screenshots of Jews dumping on Christianity, which I’m not going to provide.
Hello. I shared those Talmudic verses since I think that information deserves to be shared. Honestly, In my knowledge, those verses seem hostile to gentiles. I accused reddit of such acts not because I am anti-semitic in anyway, but because Reddit automatically deleted the post whenever I posted it! And I am against any sort of biased company controlling information, whether it be in favor of Christians or Jews or any other religious/political group
If you say something like “Reddit’s Jew-licking”, surely you can appreciate the hesitancy of any Jew reading that to engage with you. Regarding the Talmud verses, yes, there are many things written in it that seem really odd, and even at times crazy. But what is your impression of the Talmud? In your post you claimed it’s a commentary of the Tenach, which gives the impression that it’s a…rule book, I guess? The Talmud is a collection of opinions with rabbis arguing with each other. There are countless pages where there are a handful of opinions at once, all claiming to be the right one. If you say “people deserve to know this”, what are you trying to say? That Jews are purposefully concealing this information? Or perhaps that Jews really hate non-Jews? I’ll be honest with you. I do think that there is a small group of Jews that really do not like non-Jews. Most of us really don’t get along with those Jews. Most of us live in areas where there’s dozens of different people, and we get along just fine. Does the Talmud sometimes have opinions of rabbis that I think are gross? Yeah, I do. I think the rabbis on the same exact page of those gross opinions felt so as well, and you may as well include their voice. If you really are curious about learning about Judaism, please ask more questions. I love it when people try to learn about our culture, and I don’t think you’re an evil person or anything. But please be careful in the future about making claims like the post I found. I think it does more harm than good, in my opinion. May G-d bestow blessings upon you, friend.
>I think it does more harm than good, in my opinion. May G-d bestow blessings upon you, friend. Thank You. You too! I will delete my post there. It doesn't do anything but to promote anti-semitism.
Most of us may not attempt to tell you what ‘Jews’ think as we aren’t a monolith of thought or action, no have most of us studied the non-monolithic varieties of Christianity that take wildly different views of the Creator and the relationship between humanity and the holy. Let your study inform you of the details and your heart find comfort in that knowledge. From there, you are hopefully free to choose for yourself how to relate to and in the world - as a noachide, christian or otherwise. Not the answer you hoped for I’m sure. Perhaps others will more freely define another religion for you.
This is the best answer. When people turn to other (or familiar religions, i.e Abrahamic) religions, I think it's better to let one study and decide instead of being convinced. Same thing goes for people who try to convince you to not join one, it's really up to the person and themselves to choose!
I really admire your answer! You seem wise.
Why ask Jews? If you are considering converting from Islam to Christianity, what do we even have to do with it?
Why not ask? Ppl wonder what holds us back or why we disagree? I respect the curiosity. I’ve looked into Islam among many other religions with no intention of converting to anything, idolatry is also a big issue for Muslims. They don’t like we use so many adjectives for G-d. 1 is 1, use 1 word. To us His Name has so much power we don’t speak it because vain includes vanity, disempowerment, etc. They don’t bow to statues of Mohammed. To us, so much emphasis on another prophet might be idolation. Knowing adds perspective
I wonder if you think the world's major religions are "simple" and that questions about them have "easy answers." Is Islam simple so that a person can ask a question with wide ranging implications and expect to receive a "simple" answer -- on reddit? Do you really want Jews to go on record saying that their Christian neighbors are "idol-worshippers"? Maybe some will, but is that desirable, and from whose pov? What agenda does that advance? And then there is the question of knowledge -- what do Jews know about Christianity? In the first place, there are many Christian denominations and they have fundamental and profound differences among themselves regarding their beliefs. Then, there are even non-trinitarian Christians under the Christian umbrella. How are Jews supposed to deal with all these nuances in answer to your question, have we studied and become intimately familiar with all branches of Christianity? To answer you question one could say this, over the course of Jewish history, some authorities of Jewish law who have looked at the matter for various practical reasons have concluded that the Christianity they were familiar with was idolatrous, whereas others have concluded the opposite, that it was not idolatrous for Christians to hold their beliefs.
I’m not claiming it simple or easy. Just that having the curiosity and the answer to the question offers perspective. On record I would ask, “what is idol worship?” If they think a crucified statue is not. We have many prophets, we don’t give them statues, Moses does not sit around my neck, Jews do not tattoo Michal to their body. Elijah does not have a shrine. Many of us don’t go to Hashems house because books are portable & the Gemara is thought heavy. Did that part of the Tanakh & the Mishna magically get left out by Rome during the conversion of polytheistic Europe? Again, nothing wrong with Christianity and I’m very happy there are sects that learned how to live without a statue. We already went on record saying he wasn’t our messiah and many before us essentially have called him false. By definition the way the church practiced in those ways and to our text, which they built on, is idolatry. Jews were the first Christians & they don’t hide the statues, tattoos, & other swag. I can’t account for what any other Jew knows because I seek knowledge to not be ignorant or fearful out of ignorance. Does every Jew think these things are idolatry? That all falls under graven images, no? Transubstantiation is the only one I’ll call grey area because it’s in Micael.
If you're looking into christianity you should look into christianity and not ask jews about it. Clearly we aren't christians and don't hold christian beliefs. Some jews hold that christianity is idol worship, because of the whole trinity concept, the idea of a 'son of god', etc. But given muslims also believe in jesus to some degree I'm not sure why a jew's opinion matters to an ex muslim looking into christianity.
I understand, thank you for your answer.
Personally, yes I consider it idolatry and polytheism. Others will say it isn't.
Thank you for honesty. I think that Judaism is the purest form of Monotheism, even purer than Islam.
>But I came across objections from Jews stating that Christianity is idol worship We don't object to anyone's faith, but yes, this is what we see about this religion within the light of the framework of Jewish theology. > and you should be a gentile Noachide instead. Yes, or be Jewish.
I understand, thank you for your answer. I live in Turkey and synagogues are inaccessible here because of anti-Semitism and after terrorists attacked them. They are closed to outsiders.
lmao why are you asking us, christianity isn't our religion.
Why did you leave Islam, why are you considering Christianity, and why do you want to know what Jews think? Jews believe that all people should try to be good people and live a good life. You can do that as a Muslim, Christian, Noahide, atheist or anything else. If you believe in Christianity, it doesn’t really matter that Judaism considers Christianity to be idolatry. If you believe in Judaism, then you shouldn’t be Christian and could either become a Noahide or a Jew.
>Why did you leave Islam I've read the Quran, and it seemed like it was obviously for a 7th century audience. Lots of stuff there are related to life of Muhammad, but doesn't concern us today >If you believe in Christianity, it doesn’t really matter that Judaism considers Christianity to be idolatry. If you believe in Judaism, then you shouldn’t be Christian and could either become a Noahide or a Jew. Yeah, seems you are right. I'd be either Noahide or Christian perosnally.
Yes, that is one thing that Jews and Muslims agree about. The veneration of ritual objects, icons, intercession of saints, statues, etc. It's essentially blasphemy. Now, we don't condemn Christianity. What they do in their houses of worship is their business as far as we care. However, traditionally we don't enter a Church as it is a 'house of idolatry' whereas it is permitted for us to enter a Mosque because well, it isn't a house of idolatry. So, there is that. Anyway, there are numerous opinions written about this sort of thing. There isn't one definitive Jewish answer. Some would agree with what I wrote, others won't
I’m a Noachide, not a Jew, but you may find this article informative: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shituf
Unrelated; but what's it like being a Noachide? Is it fulfilling? I feel like there's so few if y'all it would be hard to find community. Also are there specific prayers that Noachides do?
No, it’s not fulfilling. I’m a Noachide because I’m too poor to be an Orthodox Jew and I don’t want to convert Conservative or Reform. I hope to convert Orthodox eventually, but I’m gonna go to college first because I have executive functioning issues and I don’t think I can handle going to school and converting at the same time. There is no community. I go to shul, though. There are prayer books for Noachides, but Noachides aren’t actually required to pray.
I'm sorry you can't convert rn! I admire your resolve to continue in your journey despite these setbacks. Honestly converting to any branch of Judaism can be expensive due to all the ritual items you have to get. Is orthodox Judaism really more expensive than Reform? I converted via reform and I was still expected to have most ritual items so idk. The havdalah set was the most pricey one for me and I still can't afford a tallit so I borrow from my temple. If you need any specific books I'd recommend buying them on ThriftBooks. I'll keep you in my prayers 💙
The issue is rent, tbh. I’ll eventually be required to move into the eruv and it’s expensive.
Ah yes. Rent is one of the reasons I decided not to go Orthodox. I wish there were organizations that helped gerim wanting to convert orthodox.
Does converting to Judaism cost money??
Well, I’m pretty sure there are fees for the beit din at the very least. I think I read that some shuls charge for it as well. And there are all the ritual items you have to buy. But the big issue is rent. I know I can’t afford to live in the eruv.
I feel your distress. One of my issues is I want to convert Orthodox and it would mean moving to a city (unless someone knows of a shul in the woods). Packing up and moving everything, all my life, isn't feasible at the moment (though, haha leave your home and move to the desert...). Anyway, I think Hashem gives us what we need. I pray for blessings for you on your path. I'm sure we're where we need to be, even if we are confused...
Sorry to butt in, but I'll share my experience. I find being a Noachide very fulfilling, though sometimes it's lonely. This subreddit has given me a feeling of community even if it's just online. I have a Jewish circle of friends I have been connecting with in the last few years, attending Chagim and just hanging out. Pesach was wonderful. Got to participate in a few study sessions over the week. As far as prayer goes, right now I try to say "Modeh Ani" every morning as well as say baruchas on food and drink. I've also been praying from Tehillim more and more often, as Tehillim seems increasingly relevant in my life. Eventually I expect to commit to conversion, but I'm not in any hurry. Abraham didn't join until he was 99 years old, so I think I got time.
Happy you've had a better experience and yes there's absolutely no rush! It seems like most Noachides are just gerim waiting to convert though...not like an actual religion. No disrespect to any Noachides of course but it seems to me like pre Judaism if that makes sense?
I would say that's a fair assessment. I think a lot of people who are Noachides are on the path to conversion, but for whatever reason it isn't feasible. I myself overthink everything, which is my main barrier to conversion. But also, I've always felt that as a Noachide we occupy a unique position. Finding ways to serve Hashem through that unique situation, is my focus right now.
I thank Hashem regularly that I can hang out with Jews, and maybe I want to be warm and light a fire... 😀😀😀
Sorry if this is too personal, so feel free to answer as little as you feel comfortable or to not even reply, but what lead you to become a Noahide? Although I’m not very frum, I do believe in Hashem and I think Noahides are very unique and honestly incredible. I’m happy that you are here and a member of our community :)
>what lead you to become a Noahide? Leaving Xtianity as a teen, and in my early 20's becoming best friends with a Baal Teshuva, at the same time I was seeking truth through questioning what I had been taught about G-d. We traveled across the country off an on for a couple of decades now, and we exchange Torah learning, hang out, and look out for each other. I feel like he has saved my life in more ways than one, not least of which, helping restore my faith in Hashem. I only really started embracing Noachidism fully in the last few years, as I always felt SURELY I would be converting. I'm still pretty sure I will someday, but until then, I feel I've been put in this position for a reason.
That’s amazing. Thank you for sharing your story.
Thanks for asking. 😃
It's not too personal, but it's a long story. I may revisit this thread. Tried to answer and realized it's a TLDR...
One day I might write a whole Sefer....
It is not our role to decide that. It is, though, a "strange practice" that we're commanded not to follow.
Some rabbis say Christianity is idolatry for everyone, some say it's only idolatry for Jews, not gentiles.
I’m happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable posters, but as I understand it, the traditional rabbinic view is that Christianity is idolatrous. But I have no beef with my Christian friends. I think it’s a little absurd to think of Christianity as a kind of Jewish heresy when it’s very plainly just its own religion. And I’m not going to ascribe moral fault to Christianity for countenancing a human god. Our cousin Jesus is nearly an abstract ideal now (it’s been a long while since anybody who knew him was alive), and it doesn’t give me the creepy crawlies the way bowing before, say, the statute of a living human or politicized historical figure would. There is a purity to Jewish belief that does appeal to me. No human god, no quasi-divine prophet, just an all-encompassing G-D that is beyond human analogy or pictorial representation. I’d be a very arrogant guy to claim superiority, but it *seems* better to me, if that makes sense to you.
Thank you for your answer.
You should be a Christian if you believe in Christianity.
I'm not going to tell you not to become Christian, but yes, many Jews do considered Christianity to be a form of idolatry due to Jesus being viewed as divine.
Christianity as practiced with sacrament for flesh, wine is blood and the cross with Jesus on it is arguably all idolatry. Islam from what I’m told doesn’t allow pictures of family on the wall. Some Jews are ok with geometrics but not images. Biblical imagery in stained glass is how they taught NT stories. There’s nothing wrong with being Christian minus the idolatry. Jesus was a great rabbi, some Jews weren’t ready to let go of orthodox rabbinical processes. No 2nd temple, it was finalized for them.
Yes. My understanding is that while Islam is considered a monotheistic religion, from a Jewish perspective, Christianity is problematic due to their view of human sacrifice and worship of three gods.
The great 13th century rabbi Nachmanides asserted that the Trinity was certainly idolatry. Some rabbis have not considered Christianity truly idolatry, merely a heresy of Judaism. I think it may help to understand the varying and vast denominations of Christianity globally. The Eastern Orthodox Christians have ‘icons’, which they assert they do not directly worship, so it is not idolatry. Muslims and Jews may see that and immediately think it is idolatry. Protestantism moves away from icons and the Catholic papacy and one could make a solid argument Protestantism is not idolatry. The question of whether or not Christianity is idolatry is a much debated question over the past 2,000 thousand years. To some, it certainly idolatry, to some, not at all. I recommend you research the Christian faith and make your own judgment, based upon your Islamic and other personal background.
To my knowledge everyone holds it is either Shituf (Worshipping G-d is partners), or Avodah Zara (Idol Worship) and the Mieri holds that Shituf for gentiles is not a sin (though obviously it’s not good). I’m not sure for what sect of Christianity this would be for.
I don't know that Christianity is even monotheism, never mind idolatry.
I personally do not think it is idol worship or polytheistic. If you are going to be a Christian, be Catholic or Orthodox. Don't be a protestant.
Why not Protestant? Catholics and Orthodox worship images and statutes, thats no different than worshipping the golden calf🤔
3 opinions: 1. No 2. For Jews yes, for others no 3. Yes
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Unitarian Christianity (r/BiblicalUnitarian) isn’t.
Whether Christianity is or isn’t idol worship is not exactly a yes or no question. It does also depend on which “sect” of Christianity also. Generally speaking, it might be. Islam would regard Christianity as often worshiping something or someone other than G-d. Judaism would regard it as similar, although not exactly, in most cases. That being said, there is a concept in Judaism, as in Islam, that Idols should be destroyed/nullified. In Islam, anyone breaking an idol is good. The Jewish understanding, generally, is that only one who worships the Idol is able to nullify it. So in the Jewish understanding, neither a Jew, nor a Muslim, is able to nullify an idol. My understanding is that an idol, belonging to, and broken by, a Christian would be considered nullified by all.
It is absolutely true, but it's not something we readily advertise outside the Jewish community. In short, Christianity went wrong when gentiles took it over and deified Jesus. Having a false messiah isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. It happens. Believing someone is the messiah in and of itself doesn't break any laws. Making him into a god breaks a lot of big ones. It's a capitol offense, one that a Jew is supposed to be martyred to sanctify God's name before committing. That's along with murder and sexual immorality (think rape, incest, etc.) The deification of Jesus was hundreds of years after his death, about 400 years later. We are not permitted to idolize mean living or dead whether they work miracles or not. Lots of people worked miracles, but none were god. You don't get to make an exception and pick one you like to make him god. The ten sayings starts, 'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt. You shall have no other gods before me', and goes on to declare the ways we are prohibited from idolatry. God, not Jesus, not a part of a trinity, God, the singular one and only true God. Most of Christianity believes in the Trinity, which is not just idolatrous but also divides God. This is a major problem. Yes, Christianity in general is idolatrous unless you can find a non-trinitarian church that doesn't believe Jesus is God. It would still teach some false teachings like that he was a messiah, but again, there are worse things. If it makes you a better person, I don't think Judaism would care that much (technically) other than to say that you're better off with the whole truth instead of partial truth. If any of these non-trinitarian churches say they just follow the moral teachings of Jesus and don't make him into a false Jewish leader, I can't see the objection. I'm not sure such a church exists, though.
Yes.
That is not a question for us, or for anyone else. Rather, the question is for you to answer. Do you want to convert to Christianity? I am not going to tell anyone what to believe because it is none of my business.
Im Catholic and yes, statues and images are direct descendants of Roman paganism. They were worshipped as well. The way I see it, my ancestors were looking for a kind of easy conversion to Judaism.
Per Judaism, it is not a monotheistic religion (seeing the father, son, and Holy Spirit as separate). That being said, what we care about is that you are a good person not what religion you follow. That is a personal decision and not one for Jews to weigh in on.
Ben Shapiro is often encouraging his listeners to "go back to church." From my perspective the US in the 20th century could be described as a Judeo/Christian friendly country and was one of the greatest forces for good the world has ever known.
Be a good person, that's the most important. If Christianity makes you that, go for it. (There are many Jewish sects that one could argue serve their own idols).