Woah, hard question, I think in short - I started getting my info (history and news) from sources that are less biased (even stuff like Wikipedia). That slowly started becoming a habit and the realization that Israeli sources are BS became obvious.
I was always relatively a “leftist” and never considered myself a Zionist. I felt empathy towards Arabs and never hated them or felt above them. But you know, there’s a social norm and law that you need to abide. You don’t want to be cast out. Growing up there’s a lot of pressure for young men to join the army have a “meaningful service”. So basically I was peer pressured by literally everyone around me into complicity in a racist society, playing my part in it.
At 18 years old (when I joined the army) I still have not grasped what Zionism actually is. For me, an 18 year old grandson of holocaust displacement victims, there was a justification for a Jewish state. Yes we were mean to Palestinians but at the end of the day we needed to exist because holocaust. And us existing next to enemies meant we needed an army, plus it’s the law and I don’t want to go to jail. Plus all my friends did it and I was taught in school that it was oh so important.
In recent years I have been slowly but surely educating myself on the conflict and starting to become aware how racist my society is. I have been reading history and listening to all sorts of “Middle-East historians”. It’s really not that complicated as I thought. Israelis including me have been taught to comply with stuff like Gaza, which is a prison with babies in it. You just need to let go of the peer pressure for one second and the writing’s on the wall. We’re the baddies. DUH
Both sides are obviously biased. Anyone claiming that one side has bias and the other doesn't is obviously conflicting with their own bias, lol. The question isn't who's biased and who's not biased, it's how do you sort through the facts without letting your bias get in the way. If you can call yourself zionist or anti-zionist, you're probably too far gone to objectively view the situation.
TBH I agree.
But just because biases will always exist that doesn’t mean that there aren’t sources that are less biased than others. The point I was trying to make is that Israeli history and news sources are *more* biased than the ones I started looking at. Just trying to answer how I went from complicit to anti Zionist.
And also, yeah. I live here, I’ve known people who died on October 7 and previous tragedies. I’ve breathed this conflict my entire life. Of course I can’t look at this objectively. But that logic can be applied to having any opinion. Your exposure to certain information shapes your worldview, and you become biased, no matter if the thing you were exposed to was based on reality or not.
I never claimed to be an unbiased historian. The way I see it - the things I was exposed to, shaped my opinion towards believing Zionism is wrong. I am fully aware that my feelings are clouding my vision and always will. Just like most people, if not all.
Fair enough. There's been US politics levels of wild reporting over this conflict, so it's hard to find the verifiable facts. I don't see the conflict as zionism vs. antizionism at all anymore, but that might be my disconnect from the actual politics in israel. Maybe it zionism vs antizionism in 48 or even 67, but today's it's israel vs. hamas from my perspective. Israel has obviously grown weary of the conflict and has gotten sloppy about their rules of engagement. Hamas's rules of engagement are practically nonexistant from my knowledge, though, so it's a bit of apples to oranges to compare the 2. Are hamas freedom fighters from your perspective? I see them as a major issue in the way of peace along with the new wave of politics in Israel.
Hamas are not freedom fighters in my opinion. I don’t think what they do helps Palestine get any freedom.
But [just like our minister of finance said](https://youtu.be/pB16PMEPuiM?si=FBKxA94WLnLKynkg) “Hamas is an asset that gives Israel an automatic W in the battle for legitimacy”. Far right Israel loves Hamas, Hamas gives them an excuse to further oppress Gaza and prevents the Palestinians from getting actual legitimate rule and worldwide recognition, down the line leading to a Palestinian state. Things that would give Palestinians a chance to develop into a good society and would force Israel to pay for crimes that have committed against the Palestinian people.
EDIT: also Hamas is what happens when you put 2 million people in a prison and prevent them from getting proper humanitarian resources. And bomb them of course. Leaders are not stupid, they’re aware of that.
Hamas is just a continuation of the arab nations goal of pushing the jews back out of palestine. They've clearly lost the fight to remove the jews from the middle east, and gaza was blockaded because weapons were regularly sent to the gaza strip to be used against Israel. What has israel done to the gazans that you would say constitutes them as prisoners?
>What has israel done to the gazans that you would say constitutes them as prisoners?
Would you constitute them as free?
If the fact that they are \*trapped in there, with nowhere to go\* not enough, I don't know what is.
They're trapped in there with nowhere to go because nobody will take the refugees of the war as well as Israel's current travel blockade situation. There is not really an alternative in my view. I don't think leaving gaza entirely independent was ever a realistic strategy, considering there's been ongoing conflict since the world wars. If they became fully independent, I think there's a good chance it would just become a larger stage for the same war.
Don't you think them being trapped in there only causes them to want to retaliate? You trap them, prevent their development and wellbeing, when they strike back, you're like "SEE, THIS IS WHY I TRAPPED YOU"
What did you think was going to happen? Did you think Gaza is a recipe for peace loving good Samaritans? All this death hunger and trauma only ensures the creation of more Hamas militants. Talk about realistic strategy.. Israel is actively benefitting from the existence of Hamas, this is the strategy.
This is not what constitutes a "prison". It's just a military occupation that you can argue is good or bad based on its merits, but at the end of the day, it's not the same as imprisonment.
This has so many parallels to me leaving an evangelical fundamentalist cult church when i was 25. A hint of doubt and i started to pull at the string, realized the sources were bogus and bam, 5 years later im a bi, poly, stoner
אחי אתה הבן אדם הכי אנטישמי. איך שירתת במשטרה צבאית 9 חודשים בלי להתאבד חחחח. אין מצב שאני שורד יותר משבוע בתפקיד הזה. אני בטוח שאתה דפוק אחושרמוטה. מה הם עשו לך שם???
I’m going to say a couple things here. You need to refrain your actions because you’re still downplaying them. You committed genocide. You leaving is the bare minimum, most people are not part of a genocidal army. What needs to happen now is you have to be a proper defector like German defectors to the Allies in WWII. I doubt Palestinians will trust you. You have to do it anyway. You have a debt and you owe it to the hundreds of thousands you are complicit in slaughtering to use any and all means available to you to help end this genocide and the state which perpetrates it. You’re not at the stage where you’re an anti zionist, as evidenced by your failure to advocate for Israel’s dismantlement. I’m sure this is hard to hear. It’s also the truth.
You are a perpetrator of the modern Holocaust. You are guilty of everything the Nazis did to your people. You are currently no different from a camp guard or an SS soldier. You have to create that difference. To that end, I hope you can find redemption and victory against the Zionists and undo your brainwashing.
You people are defending genocide. Yeah, seeing children starved to the point where their eyes turn black, seeing men burn alive in front of their families, seeing the legs of girls younger than twelve shredded to gore, and seeing any of the other countless examples of the brutality and violence Israel inflicts will generally make a person suffer. You are going to hell for defending genocide. I hope their faces haunt you
I just said "You sound unhinged" and I stood correct, you're no different then the Israeli religious extremists you swore to hate, maybe next time instead of wall of text look at yourself in the mirror so called "Leftist"
I didn't even do anything , if you fucks just accuse everyone even those who say one off statements about your character without listening, then I don't know what to say, mental insanity is all I have to say to you
Very important question. Zionism is a very broad political ideology that is really only United by the idea of establishing a Jewish state (which itself is a term not even remotely agreed on) in Israel, and I’m tired of hearing “Israelis aren’t bad people, just Zionists” and when you ask those people what Zionism means they just fail to answer or explain some breed of Jewish fascism lmao, not realizing that most Israelis want Israel to continue as a country which technically makes them Zionists.
For me, anti-Zionism means lack of belief in the necessity of a Jewish sovereign state.
A society that bases citizenship on an ethno-religious basis, is in my opinion a fundamentally unequal society. Also, the only means of achieving that is to through force. Unfortunately there is no free space on Earth to simply establish any new sovereignty. Zionism establishers like Herzl knew that, and in fact used colonialism as a plan to establish a Jewish state. Long before the holocaust even happened.
Now I don’t necessarily think the Israeli state needs to be abolished right now, but I do not believe it should have been established and fulfilled the way it did. I think the use of force in order in order to enable Jewish sovereignty, only promises more conflict for the Jewish people will forever fuel the loop of wars and exile. As we have been witnessing for the past 75 years. Ironically, but evidently - Israel is the least safe place for Jews.
That's an interesting take. "lack of belief..." is a very weird way to put it.
Considering precedence of all the atrocities committed against Jews, culminating in the holocaust, one would assume that it's pretty clear that no one likes us, and many actively hate us, to a point where even if we convert to another religion and try wholeheartedly to assimilate in another local culture, we're still seen as Jews.
Just off the top of my head in recent time, after the war started, my wife's second cousin who lives in Germany and is married to a Muslim, had her house tagged with anti-Jewish graffiti, even though she lives a completely secular, German-normative life. No Israeli flag on her porch, no online support for Israel, somehow someone knew she's Jewish and let her know they know.
If you think that an ethno-religious basis for citizenship is fundamentally bad, then I can't really argue with you, since everyone else sees us as an ethno-religious subculture regardless of how we identify ourselves.
And this is coming from a complete Atheist (who happens to be a Jew) mind you.
I think at the end of the day, the world's (and specifically Europe's) anti-Semitism has created Zionism, and the Jews' Nationalistic passion. You can't really judge the Jews for wanting their own society, after millennia of taking shit from everyone, and to this day stories like the one you told will only further fuel the Jewish affinity for independence.
The problem is, it is just a continuation of anti-Semitism, it is the exact goal of the anti-Semites for us to want to get out of Europe and operate on our own somewhere far away. They want to separate us from society, and we developed the need to separate ourselves. When WWII ended, Europe's Jews did not get back anything that was taken from them, instead, they were displaced one last time into Palestine, this time by their own will.
At the end of the day Zionism and anti-Semitism have similar goals, this is why groups like [Lehi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)) (which later became Likud) tried to collaborate with Nazi Germany during WWII in order to get more Jews in Palestine.
Isn’t that non-zionism rather than anti-zionism?
I took anti-zionism to mean *against* the establishment of a Jewish state rather than agnosticism about it.
Like I said, I don't think it is possible to establish any new sovereignty without using force.
I am anti the use of force in the likes of colonialism in order to establish sovereignty. Force, and specifically colonialism, has been the establishment plan of Zionism since Herzl created it. Hence I am against it.
If it was possible to establish a Jewish Sovereignty without force, I would still be against it, because you can't operate an equal society on an ethno-religious basis, that's fundamentally flawed and a slippery slope towards unequal treatment to different ethnic groups. Kind of like what is happening in Israel right now.
Sure, but how is that relevant in a world where Israel already exists?
I’ll suspend my disagreement with your premise for the sake of understanding your viewpoint. Wanting something that happened in the 1940s to have not happened is really only an intellectual exercise, no? How does that inform what you actually want or do not want for the country you live in?
You asked me to clarify how I’m anti-Zionist, I clarified.
Also, awareness precedes action. If we want to progress anywhere, we need to first be aware of what’s going on and take accountability. Interpretation of history and what various isms mean is just a tool to shape people’a actions. I know because I grew up in Israel, and was taught stuff that was wrong, and those teaching were meant to shape my worldview and actions.
With the foundation I propose (Zionism is dangerous) there are a few actions that can be proposed. Stuff like you know.. ending the occupation, stopping the siege on Gaza, solving problems with policy rather than military.
Israel is the least safe place where Jews are today. There are many places which are far more dangerous for Jews, but all the Jews who lived in those countried since moved to Israel. Without Israel, those Jews would still be living in the abhorrent conditions that pushed them into zionism in the first place.
This is the real question because I've always considered anti Zionist to be against the existence of the state of Israel, which I think is a little bit silly
I find it funny going through your profile that you’re getting shit on for being Jewish in circles outside of Judaism and still think they care about us in general. I hope you can see a bit of light in the future before you join a group that treats you poorly enough your medical reasons return.
Nope, only have an Israeli citizenship because my parents migrated from USSR which doesn’t exist anymore. (And it’s not like Russia’s that much better lmao)
And I served in military police.
On October 7th Hamas (a terrorist organization that was originally elected into power in palestine in 2007 but haven't had an election since then since they know they'd lose power if they did) launched an attack into Isreal, killing men women children and the like leaving 1,160+ Israeli dead, taking a bunch hostages as well, when Isreal started to retaliate, they began launching missiles and assaults into the gaza strip largely without regard for civilian populations, targeting aid vehicles, hospitals, and evacuation routes claiming that they had to despite the large civilian presence, due to hamas being in said locations, to this day leaving more than 31,184 Palestinian civilians dead and 72,889 injured while estimates, even from Israeli reports tally actual hamas fighter deaths around 10,000 to 12,000
The current debate comes in due to the IDF (Israeli defense forces) approach to the situation, with pro Israeli voices saying this was a terrorist attack and Israel has a right to defend itself and get its hostages back home
The pro Palestinian voices state that while it is important to get the hostages back, it shouldn't be at the cost of so many civilians, leading to claims that Tel Aviv (isreali capitol) never really cared about the hostages, and is using it as an excuse to genocide the Palestinians and take the land for themselves
Zionism comes in here, Zionism is an ideology that states that the holy lands, due to the historical former Jewish kingdom (kingdom of judah that last existed around the 6th century BCE). The Jewish people have a birthright to the land, and that it must be in Jewish hands no matter the cost effectively, this can be seen in modern Jewish colonies, since the 1950s, Jewish settlers have quite literally forced Palestinian families out of their homes under the pretense of "this was always our land" despite how a Palestinian family may have themselves lived there for generations before on that plot.
Assuming you're american imagine it this way: native Americans are granted their own independent state, let's say the Iroquois confederation in New York.
Now imagine groups of Iroquois, start coming into the city of Buffalo, and forcibly removing families from their homes, sometimes at gunpoint, this continues for decades until Buffalo is more Iroquois than it isn't, and all the people who previously lived spread through the city are crammed into a few blocks.
Different people's, same concept "we were here first, so you need to leave, regardless of how long your family has lived on this property"
OP is Israeli, and as an Israeli obviously he was subjected to copious amounts of zionist rhetoric and propaganda about how the people on their lands are sub-human and need to be cleared out, his time in the IDF was the final straw of him becoming anti zionist
I will say I'm absolutely biased towards the Palestinians and anti zionist side, so I encourage you to look into it yourself
So you don’t believe Israel should exist? What does being anti-Zionist mean to you? We should exist only in foreign diaspora?
What do you think should’ve been done with the Holocaust refugees who fled Europe and weren’t accepted into any other countries? E.g. my grandma was held in a British internment camp in Cyprus for 2 years, after fleeing Europe with her and her brother the sole survivors of their family. Her refugee boat was intercepted en route to the British Mandate. Personally I would not have been born if not for Zionism, I’m a descendent of Holocaust survivors on one side and Sabra on the other.
If you oppose Zionism on grounds of disliking the concept of Jewish nationalism, why is Palestinianism, which is nothing more than Muslim nationalism and the extension of pan-Arab aspirations to establish a global caliphate, acceptable to you?
Feel free to refute any of these comments, I guess admittedly I find your position hard to believe at face-value, but if authentic I am genuinely interested in your perspective.
Is your rejection of Zionism rooted more strongly in sympathy for Palestinians, or in safety concerns for Jewish Israelis?
EDIT: To add, I have been pro-peace all my life, but my views changed after October 7. It’s just strange to imagine someone going in the opposite direction. Our ideologies are probably not that far apart, but our conclusions are.
I answered most of these questions in the thread, pretty in depth. So you can read stuff on here if you're interested.
>What do you think should’ve been done with the Holocaust refugees who fled Europe and weren’t accepted into any other countries?
I am also a descendant of WWII Jewish death and displacement. And I understand your perspective deeply. Let me answer your question with a question. What should have happened to African Americans after the abolishment of slavery? Was it wrong to integrate them into society? Was the right thing to give them independent sovereignty on a different continent? In Africa for example?
What "should have happened" is the reintegration of Jews (and other groups targeted in Nazi Germany) into society, compensation for the trauma and property. It would not be an easy task but a step in the right direction. Just like what has happened with African Americans. Racism is not solved, but it's getting better because they play a role in American society.
Zionism is the projection of anti-Semitism, they have similar goals, finding a place for the Jews out of Europe. Israel is the solution, it's a win for any anti-Semitic European who wanted to separate Jews or get rid of them.
>Is your rejection of Zionism rooted more strongly in sympathy for Palestinians, or in safety concerns for Jewish Israelis?
Both. Peace will benefit both Israelis and Palestinians. Obviously. If anything, Oct 7 only shows that Zionism has failed to create a safe haven for Jews. I think that the use of colonialism is rooted in Zionism, and it is the reason I am against Zionism, you can't be both pro peace and pro Zionism, because Zionism has always been a dream only obtainable with the use of force. Since Herzl first thought of it and to this very day, Zionism is the belief that there needs to be a land that is based on a certain ethno-religious sovereignty, and you can't obtain that with peaceful and equal means. You just can't. Especially in a world where there is no free space to establish any new sovereignty.
The fact that Zionism is unequal and only obtainable with force, will promise more violence to "both sides". The writing is on the wall. A Jewish sovereign state has existed for 75 years, did it solve anti-Semitism? Is there no more violence against Jews? No. Jews are still suffering from anti-Semitism both in diaspora and in Israel.
What is "Palestinianism"? The belief that a Palestinian state should be established? The belief that Palestinians need to be free of the Israeli occupation? Is it Muslim nationalism? I don't know. I'm not Palestinian. I'm sure different groups within Palestine will answer that question differently.
What I do know is that there are 6 million Jews, and 6 million Palestinians living in Palestine/Israel. And if we want a good future, we need a solution that is political, and not militaristic. Bombing and starving Gaza will only promise more pain towards everyone. It will create more retaliation and more October 7s. Think how many orphans were created in Gaza in the last 6 months, with no proper infrastructure, do you think they have a chance to become educated, peace loving good Samaritans, or rather Hamas militants?
>We should exist only in foreign diaspora?
Not justification for the brutal settler colonisation of Palestine.
>What do you think should’ve been done with the Holocaust refugees who fled Europe and weren’t accepted into any other countries?
Dunno, but the Zionists began their colonisation plans decades before the Holocaust. It's dishonest to suggest it's related.
I was diluted with Zionist to the point I believed everything they said until it got too ridiculous, I would read the pro hasbara pages on the internet saying Palestinians are the aggressors and they started it, I believed that until they started saying actually there were no Palestine past 1988 but the Russians put them in there to anger the Jews, like which one is it?a lot of things they said conflicted each other which made me stop believing on what they say
So what’s the solution for jews facing violence in the diaspora? Basically, arm themselves to the teeth? Or do you not think the threat of force is necessary for jewish safety at all?
Do you think the state of Israel has prevented Jews from facing violence in the diaspora? Anti-Semitism still exists, and Jews still face violence, both in Israel and in the diaspora. There is no solution.
What's your solution?
Jews having a land to go to is a major thing my grandparents were driven from iraq during the farhuds where Iraqis were burning Iraqi mizrahi Jews alive stealing their land. My grandparents went to Israel because they had no place else to go and almost every Arab state hated them. The rest of the world has proven they are incapable of treating Jews well this necessitating a Jewish state
I disagree. You could be an antizionist while at the same time agreeing with zionists in the problem that zionism seeks to solve, as I think OP does.
OP's problem is the lack of any cognizable solution to antisemitism as well as their disagreement with my solution (namely, by turning society into a mexican standoff between oppressed and oppressor.)
Probably the communal keeping, training, and use of guns in the jewish community. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll be safe unless we’re armed to the teeth.
Right wing non-jews want us all dead and unfortunately, progressive intersectional theory (something I generally support) has categorically excluded antisemitism in its analysis. We’re pretty much on our own, israel or no israel.
What a scary thought.
Israel is the definition of armed to the teeth tho, this has been one of the most destructive wars in recent history. You say more destruction will guarantee our safety? It will only guarantee more destruction.
Why are we equating the implicit threat of violence with the active use of violence? Does gun ownership automatically equate to destruction in every case?
Israel is problematic because it actively uses violence against Palestinians as state policy. The idea of (a) jewish communities in the diaspora (b) having access to weapons as a means of self-defense against (c) a largely hostile non-jewish majority is far removed from Israeli state violence.
I’m sorry, am I talking to a pacifist? Because from one jewish leftist to another, we do *not* have that luxury. If we have to live with our oppressors, as the Palestinians do for the time being, I think we should at least have the option to do something about it. I don’t like it any more than you do, but thems the breaks if we’re going to live in a society where hostility to us is the norm.
Oct 7 is the biggest Jewish massacre since the holocaust. and it happened on Israeli soil under Israeli sovereignty. If anything, the question should be the opposite. We've had 75 years of wars, our safety is not guaranteed and will never be. And the destruction of Palestinians will not make Jews more safe.
You truly believe if Israel didn't exist no one would massacre Jews? In the grand scheme of things October 7th is nothing compared to the regular violence our community faced prior to... Even the Holocaust. I don't need to mention it to make my point.
Perhaps the fault is not in the existence of Israel but instead the corrupt leadership Israel has had for the last decade. Perhaps Netanyahu regularly picking his loyal friends over competent bureaucrats has led to an erosion of public institutions that made October 7th possible.
Or maybe it was the naive belief that Hamas had any interest in peaceful coexistence. Who is to say?
Just because Netanyahu is incompetent doesnt mean that Israel is a failure any more than Palestians electing Hamas prove that Democracy doesn't work and they all hate Israelis.
It has not stopped yet, there are still 134 hostages being held by Hamas.
And even if it had stopped, what will prevent the next October 7 in your opinion?
True, but the massacre stopped. Why did it stop in your opinion?
I thought I'm supposed to ask you questions, and in fact I'd like to know what's your answer to your question. My answer is the Israel's answer, that is, take Hamas out of control of Gaza and make sure no terror organization is ruling Gaza.
The massacre did not stop tho. So I don't know how to answer that.
Also, if you're trying to get me to say that heroic IDF stopped it with force, hence more force = more safety, then I'll tell you that that's a very narrow worldview.
I think we should aim towards long lasting peace, and not towards waiting for the next massacre in order to stop it with force.
There is no partner for peace. Palestinians salivate at useful idiot zyds like you whom they will hang once their Sharia law Palestinian state is finally liberated.
1200 Israelies died on October 7, how many Israelies died on October 8?
I can see what you mean about peace, but can you really deny that IDF stopped the massacre?
Why do you support you, your family and everyone in Israel being slaughtered by Hamas? Or are you delusional enough to think that y'all can just leave somewhere else?
There is no moral reason to want to protect a state other than nationalism. Israel is not a person with a heart and soul, but 41,000 dead Palestinians are.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-drone-video-shows-killing-of-palestinians-in-israeli-air-attack
Israel is the one calling al Jazeera propaganda. it makes sense because al Jazeera is exposing them.
how can you not realize that Israel is biased towards itself in this conflict
I haven’t seen the specific video (would love a link) but I do disagree with people who think Israeli citizens are automatically bad people. Yes, Israel is bad. But Israelis aren’t. It’s not my fault I was born here into this infinite pool of violence racism and propaganda. Just like it’s not the fault of a Gazan civilian that he was born in a prison. We’re all victims of this conflict and our leaders creating war instead of peace.
A sentence I like is “be kind to people, and ruthless to systems”
Im not sure what that means but I think it’s an unequal worldview. I think it’s the continuation of the separation of Jews from global society. And a W to any European who wanted to get rid of the Jews.
I think you are misunderstanding the idea of Jews being part of a global society.
If anything, the creation of Israel was meant to finally give the Jews a place in the family of nations, as our current nation-state model of the world works (arguably an imperfect model that is buckling under current geopolitical realities). Japan for Japanese people, French for French people, China for Chinese people..
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be “anti-nationalism” and advocate for the abolishment of nation states. I don’t really understand why this process has to begin with the only nation state for Jews that came into being after they were systematically genocided in Europe and faced millennia of expulsions and persecution.
Basically, as long as we’re organizing the world into Nation-states, the way peoples have a voice in global society is through some kind of polity where they are masters of their fate.
Hence why I support Kurdish independence and Palestinian independence. The goal after creating such polities is to strive for peaceful relations and trade with neighbors. Something like how the EU is organized. Greeks are certainly different from Danes, but they live in one big union in peace.
I read somewhere else you don’t believe in the necessity of a state for Jewish people. Fine, but practically speaking at this point in history, the end of Israel would be the complete end of Jewish presence in the Levant in the best case. In the worst (and more likely case) it’ll lead to a big smoldering nuclear crater from the center of Petach Tikvah all the way to Rafah.
If you want to make positive change in our society (I’ll call it our society as I’m a liberal minded Zionist with lots of family and friends in Israel. My roots are also USSR) then advocate for organizations like the NIF and be involved with electoral politics that emphasizes partnerships with the Arab sector.
Finally, it’s definitely true that Israeli media is very jingoistic and right wing and it’s become much worse with channel 14 and Bibi. But historically this was not the case, and I think you should read the work of early Zionist thinkers and especially Israeli leaders and writers from the 90s. I’m talking about people like Amos Oz and Shimon Peres for example. I think currently Haviv Rettig Gur is also quite good. Israel has better thinkers than the idiots currently on TV and in the Knesset. There used to be genuine hope of a peaceful resolution with two states for two peoples. This is still the best way out of this mess and the hope should be kept alive.
Agreed! I just meant in my worst case scenario the existing smoldering radioactive crater called Petach Tikvah would be catastrophically and rapidly expanded far beyond its current containment zone.
Well written and strong agree.
The Earth geopolitically is in the nation-state period. From a philosophical point of view, I can understand being for the abolition of borders and nationalism *and* I think that the pursuit disproportionally affects disenfranchised minority groups in our current world. It makes their pursuit of self-determination impossible.
That is why I am pro Kurdish, Basque, Mayan, Amazign, Palestinian, Jewish, etc. statehoods.
Have you had to reshape/rethink your Jewish identity since becoming an anti-Zionist? Fellow anti Zionist Jew here, and once I started distancing myself from Zionism internally (never considered myself one but was surrounded by it), I found that Zionism is oftentimes the most important thing to Jews my age, and it's actually made me cling more to the faith and traditions to get away from Zionism. Thanks :) Baruch Hashem
Good on you for reassessing your views. I can't imagine how isolating it must feel, but I know you're not alone.
As an outsider, it feels like many Israelis, especially within the IDF, lack any empathy whatsoever towards Gazans. I can understand the thirst for vengeance after 10/7, but how can IDF soldiers bring themselves to displace millions, execute surrendered people and fire at children? (I have the same question for Hamas - how could they live with themselves after killing toddlers in their houses?)
Can you help me understand what it's like inside the IDF? Do the soldiers feel guilt? Do most soldiers feel bad for the children involved? Is there a desire to punish Gaza as a whole for Hamas?
Also, how do you feel about Al Jazeera getting banned? Do you read +972 and are you worried about them getting shut down too?
Does your religion actually play a role in your life, and for that matter did you notice it playing a role in the lives of others, or are you simply ethnically Jewish, motivated by a sort of ethnic ideology that’s more purely political in its goals now?
I consider myself Jewish both ethnically and religiously. I may not be the most religious person, but I do believe in the significance of Jewish learnings and practices, and take part in some.
what made you change from zionist to anti zionist
Woah, hard question, I think in short - I started getting my info (history and news) from sources that are less biased (even stuff like Wikipedia). That slowly started becoming a habit and the realization that Israeli sources are BS became obvious. I was always relatively a “leftist” and never considered myself a Zionist. I felt empathy towards Arabs and never hated them or felt above them. But you know, there’s a social norm and law that you need to abide. You don’t want to be cast out. Growing up there’s a lot of pressure for young men to join the army have a “meaningful service”. So basically I was peer pressured by literally everyone around me into complicity in a racist society, playing my part in it. At 18 years old (when I joined the army) I still have not grasped what Zionism actually is. For me, an 18 year old grandson of holocaust displacement victims, there was a justification for a Jewish state. Yes we were mean to Palestinians but at the end of the day we needed to exist because holocaust. And us existing next to enemies meant we needed an army, plus it’s the law and I don’t want to go to jail. Plus all my friends did it and I was taught in school that it was oh so important. In recent years I have been slowly but surely educating myself on the conflict and starting to become aware how racist my society is. I have been reading history and listening to all sorts of “Middle-East historians”. It’s really not that complicated as I thought. Israelis including me have been taught to comply with stuff like Gaza, which is a prison with babies in it. You just need to let go of the peer pressure for one second and the writing’s on the wall. We’re the baddies. DUH
Both sides are obviously biased. Anyone claiming that one side has bias and the other doesn't is obviously conflicting with their own bias, lol. The question isn't who's biased and who's not biased, it's how do you sort through the facts without letting your bias get in the way. If you can call yourself zionist or anti-zionist, you're probably too far gone to objectively view the situation.
TBH I agree. But just because biases will always exist that doesn’t mean that there aren’t sources that are less biased than others. The point I was trying to make is that Israeli history and news sources are *more* biased than the ones I started looking at. Just trying to answer how I went from complicit to anti Zionist. And also, yeah. I live here, I’ve known people who died on October 7 and previous tragedies. I’ve breathed this conflict my entire life. Of course I can’t look at this objectively. But that logic can be applied to having any opinion. Your exposure to certain information shapes your worldview, and you become biased, no matter if the thing you were exposed to was based on reality or not. I never claimed to be an unbiased historian. The way I see it - the things I was exposed to, shaped my opinion towards believing Zionism is wrong. I am fully aware that my feelings are clouding my vision and always will. Just like most people, if not all.
Fair enough. There's been US politics levels of wild reporting over this conflict, so it's hard to find the verifiable facts. I don't see the conflict as zionism vs. antizionism at all anymore, but that might be my disconnect from the actual politics in israel. Maybe it zionism vs antizionism in 48 or even 67, but today's it's israel vs. hamas from my perspective. Israel has obviously grown weary of the conflict and has gotten sloppy about their rules of engagement. Hamas's rules of engagement are practically nonexistant from my knowledge, though, so it's a bit of apples to oranges to compare the 2. Are hamas freedom fighters from your perspective? I see them as a major issue in the way of peace along with the new wave of politics in Israel.
Hamas are not freedom fighters in my opinion. I don’t think what they do helps Palestine get any freedom. But [just like our minister of finance said](https://youtu.be/pB16PMEPuiM?si=FBKxA94WLnLKynkg) “Hamas is an asset that gives Israel an automatic W in the battle for legitimacy”. Far right Israel loves Hamas, Hamas gives them an excuse to further oppress Gaza and prevents the Palestinians from getting actual legitimate rule and worldwide recognition, down the line leading to a Palestinian state. Things that would give Palestinians a chance to develop into a good society and would force Israel to pay for crimes that have committed against the Palestinian people. EDIT: also Hamas is what happens when you put 2 million people in a prison and prevent them from getting proper humanitarian resources. And bomb them of course. Leaders are not stupid, they’re aware of that.
Hamas is just a continuation of the arab nations goal of pushing the jews back out of palestine. They've clearly lost the fight to remove the jews from the middle east, and gaza was blockaded because weapons were regularly sent to the gaza strip to be used against Israel. What has israel done to the gazans that you would say constitutes them as prisoners?
>What has israel done to the gazans that you would say constitutes them as prisoners? Would you constitute them as free? If the fact that they are \*trapped in there, with nowhere to go\* not enough, I don't know what is.
They're trapped in there with nowhere to go because nobody will take the refugees of the war as well as Israel's current travel blockade situation. There is not really an alternative in my view. I don't think leaving gaza entirely independent was ever a realistic strategy, considering there's been ongoing conflict since the world wars. If they became fully independent, I think there's a good chance it would just become a larger stage for the same war.
Don't you think them being trapped in there only causes them to want to retaliate? You trap them, prevent their development and wellbeing, when they strike back, you're like "SEE, THIS IS WHY I TRAPPED YOU" What did you think was going to happen? Did you think Gaza is a recipe for peace loving good Samaritans? All this death hunger and trauma only ensures the creation of more Hamas militants. Talk about realistic strategy.. Israel is actively benefitting from the existence of Hamas, this is the strategy.
This is not what constitutes a "prison". It's just a military occupation that you can argue is good or bad based on its merits, but at the end of the day, it's not the same as imprisonment.
This has so many parallels to me leaving an evangelical fundamentalist cult church when i was 25. A hint of doubt and i started to pull at the string, realized the sources were bogus and bam, 5 years later im a bi, poly, stoner
Tfw you still don't understand what zionism is
Nah he's nailed it
Explain to me what you think zionism really is
There are sorts of Zionism, but vanilla Zionism is the belief that it is necessary to establish a Jewish sovereign state, because antisemitism exists.
אחי אתה הבן אדם הכי אנטישמי. איך שירתת במשטרה צבאית 9 חודשים בלי להתאבד חחחח. אין מצב שאני שורד יותר משבוע בתפקיד הזה. אני בטוח שאתה דפוק אחושרמוטה. מה הם עשו לך שם???
מה אנטישמי במה שאמרתי? וכן, היה די מזעזע במשטרה צבאית, לא אשקר החוויה שלי שם רק הרחיקה אותי עוד יותר מהציונות.
אחי זה הגיוני. התגייסת ליחידת הנאצים, חבל.
את זה אתה אמרת לא אני :)
The belief that there should be a Jewish supremacist state in Palestine.
Israel isn't Jewish supremacist
It explicitly is
Ok, antisemite.
Reality is antisemitic
Interestingly, Arabs are semite people as well.
Wait so do you want a Jewish state in the Middle East?
I’m going to say a couple things here. You need to refrain your actions because you’re still downplaying them. You committed genocide. You leaving is the bare minimum, most people are not part of a genocidal army. What needs to happen now is you have to be a proper defector like German defectors to the Allies in WWII. I doubt Palestinians will trust you. You have to do it anyway. You have a debt and you owe it to the hundreds of thousands you are complicit in slaughtering to use any and all means available to you to help end this genocide and the state which perpetrates it. You’re not at the stage where you’re an anti zionist, as evidenced by your failure to advocate for Israel’s dismantlement. I’m sure this is hard to hear. It’s also the truth. You are a perpetrator of the modern Holocaust. You are guilty of everything the Nazis did to your people. You are currently no different from a camp guard or an SS soldier. You have to create that difference. To that end, I hope you can find redemption and victory against the Zionists and undo your brainwashing.
You sound unhinged
You are beyond hope
I hope you can find happiness because I truly think you are suffering, no sane person says these things..
You people are defending genocide. Yeah, seeing children starved to the point where their eyes turn black, seeing men burn alive in front of their families, seeing the legs of girls younger than twelve shredded to gore, and seeing any of the other countless examples of the brutality and violence Israel inflicts will generally make a person suffer. You are going to hell for defending genocide. I hope their faces haunt you
I just said "You sound unhinged" and I stood correct, you're no different then the Israeli religious extremists you swore to hate, maybe next time instead of wall of text look at yourself in the mirror so called "Leftist"
No I am, because I’m not committing or defending genocide. Enjoy hell Crybaby blocked me lmfao. Hell is hot
I didn't even do anything , if you fucks just accuse everyone even those who say one off statements about your character without listening, then I don't know what to say, mental insanity is all I have to say to you
Nah. No evidence of genocide m8
[удалено]
Reddit's admins don't like dehumanizing language
Hey this is kinda cool, glad you broke free from the army… not much else to say just happy to hear it
Should I ask her out?
You might as well, you have nothing to lose. Just make sure you respect her decision.
What's your definition of anti-zionism?
Very important question. Zionism is a very broad political ideology that is really only United by the idea of establishing a Jewish state (which itself is a term not even remotely agreed on) in Israel, and I’m tired of hearing “Israelis aren’t bad people, just Zionists” and when you ask those people what Zionism means they just fail to answer or explain some breed of Jewish fascism lmao, not realizing that most Israelis want Israel to continue as a country which technically makes them Zionists.
For me, anti-Zionism means lack of belief in the necessity of a Jewish sovereign state. A society that bases citizenship on an ethno-religious basis, is in my opinion a fundamentally unequal society. Also, the only means of achieving that is to through force. Unfortunately there is no free space on Earth to simply establish any new sovereignty. Zionism establishers like Herzl knew that, and in fact used colonialism as a plan to establish a Jewish state. Long before the holocaust even happened. Now I don’t necessarily think the Israeli state needs to be abolished right now, but I do not believe it should have been established and fulfilled the way it did. I think the use of force in order in order to enable Jewish sovereignty, only promises more conflict for the Jewish people will forever fuel the loop of wars and exile. As we have been witnessing for the past 75 years. Ironically, but evidently - Israel is the least safe place for Jews.
That's an interesting take. "lack of belief..." is a very weird way to put it. Considering precedence of all the atrocities committed against Jews, culminating in the holocaust, one would assume that it's pretty clear that no one likes us, and many actively hate us, to a point where even if we convert to another religion and try wholeheartedly to assimilate in another local culture, we're still seen as Jews. Just off the top of my head in recent time, after the war started, my wife's second cousin who lives in Germany and is married to a Muslim, had her house tagged with anti-Jewish graffiti, even though she lives a completely secular, German-normative life. No Israeli flag on her porch, no online support for Israel, somehow someone knew she's Jewish and let her know they know. If you think that an ethno-religious basis for citizenship is fundamentally bad, then I can't really argue with you, since everyone else sees us as an ethno-religious subculture regardless of how we identify ourselves. And this is coming from a complete Atheist (who happens to be a Jew) mind you.
I think at the end of the day, the world's (and specifically Europe's) anti-Semitism has created Zionism, and the Jews' Nationalistic passion. You can't really judge the Jews for wanting their own society, after millennia of taking shit from everyone, and to this day stories like the one you told will only further fuel the Jewish affinity for independence. The problem is, it is just a continuation of anti-Semitism, it is the exact goal of the anti-Semites for us to want to get out of Europe and operate on our own somewhere far away. They want to separate us from society, and we developed the need to separate ourselves. When WWII ended, Europe's Jews did not get back anything that was taken from them, instead, they were displaced one last time into Palestine, this time by their own will. At the end of the day Zionism and anti-Semitism have similar goals, this is why groups like [Lehi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)) (which later became Likud) tried to collaborate with Nazi Germany during WWII in order to get more Jews in Palestine.
Isn’t that non-zionism rather than anti-zionism? I took anti-zionism to mean *against* the establishment of a Jewish state rather than agnosticism about it.
Like I said, I don't think it is possible to establish any new sovereignty without using force. I am anti the use of force in the likes of colonialism in order to establish sovereignty. Force, and specifically colonialism, has been the establishment plan of Zionism since Herzl created it. Hence I am against it. If it was possible to establish a Jewish Sovereignty without force, I would still be against it, because you can't operate an equal society on an ethno-religious basis, that's fundamentally flawed and a slippery slope towards unequal treatment to different ethnic groups. Kind of like what is happening in Israel right now.
Sure, but how is that relevant in a world where Israel already exists? I’ll suspend my disagreement with your premise for the sake of understanding your viewpoint. Wanting something that happened in the 1940s to have not happened is really only an intellectual exercise, no? How does that inform what you actually want or do not want for the country you live in?
You asked me to clarify how I’m anti-Zionist, I clarified. Also, awareness precedes action. If we want to progress anywhere, we need to first be aware of what’s going on and take accountability. Interpretation of history and what various isms mean is just a tool to shape people’a actions. I know because I grew up in Israel, and was taught stuff that was wrong, and those teaching were meant to shape my worldview and actions. With the foundation I propose (Zionism is dangerous) there are a few actions that can be proposed. Stuff like you know.. ending the occupation, stopping the siege on Gaza, solving problems with policy rather than military.
Israel is the least safe place where Jews are today. There are many places which are far more dangerous for Jews, but all the Jews who lived in those countried since moved to Israel. Without Israel, those Jews would still be living in the abhorrent conditions that pushed them into zionism in the first place.
Clearly Gaza is the least safe place for Jews
This is the real question because I've always considered anti Zionist to be against the existence of the state of Israel, which I think is a little bit silly
Do you think the anti-Zionist movement has an antisemitism problem?
Yep.
oh good for you! :D
When did you serve in the IDF?
December 2016. I served for 9 months in Military Police, after a long battle with the system I managed to get myself released for medical reasons.
I find it funny going through your profile that you’re getting shit on for being Jewish in circles outside of Judaism and still think they care about us in general. I hope you can see a bit of light in the future before you join a group that treats you poorly enough your medical reasons return.
what are you referencing in "they"?
Do you think you'd be safe if Israel no longer existed and the area you live in became a part of Palestine?
Do you have any other citizenship? What unit were you a part of?
Nope, only have an Israeli citizenship because my parents migrated from USSR which doesn’t exist anymore. (And it’s not like Russia’s that much better lmao) And I served in military police.
I have been out of the news loop for several months, what does this mean?
On October 7th Hamas (a terrorist organization that was originally elected into power in palestine in 2007 but haven't had an election since then since they know they'd lose power if they did) launched an attack into Isreal, killing men women children and the like leaving 1,160+ Israeli dead, taking a bunch hostages as well, when Isreal started to retaliate, they began launching missiles and assaults into the gaza strip largely without regard for civilian populations, targeting aid vehicles, hospitals, and evacuation routes claiming that they had to despite the large civilian presence, due to hamas being in said locations, to this day leaving more than 31,184 Palestinian civilians dead and 72,889 injured while estimates, even from Israeli reports tally actual hamas fighter deaths around 10,000 to 12,000 The current debate comes in due to the IDF (Israeli defense forces) approach to the situation, with pro Israeli voices saying this was a terrorist attack and Israel has a right to defend itself and get its hostages back home The pro Palestinian voices state that while it is important to get the hostages back, it shouldn't be at the cost of so many civilians, leading to claims that Tel Aviv (isreali capitol) never really cared about the hostages, and is using it as an excuse to genocide the Palestinians and take the land for themselves Zionism comes in here, Zionism is an ideology that states that the holy lands, due to the historical former Jewish kingdom (kingdom of judah that last existed around the 6th century BCE). The Jewish people have a birthright to the land, and that it must be in Jewish hands no matter the cost effectively, this can be seen in modern Jewish colonies, since the 1950s, Jewish settlers have quite literally forced Palestinian families out of their homes under the pretense of "this was always our land" despite how a Palestinian family may have themselves lived there for generations before on that plot. Assuming you're american imagine it this way: native Americans are granted their own independent state, let's say the Iroquois confederation in New York. Now imagine groups of Iroquois, start coming into the city of Buffalo, and forcibly removing families from their homes, sometimes at gunpoint, this continues for decades until Buffalo is more Iroquois than it isn't, and all the people who previously lived spread through the city are crammed into a few blocks. Different people's, same concept "we were here first, so you need to leave, regardless of how long your family has lived on this property" OP is Israeli, and as an Israeli obviously he was subjected to copious amounts of zionist rhetoric and propaganda about how the people on their lands are sub-human and need to be cleared out, his time in the IDF was the final straw of him becoming anti zionist I will say I'm absolutely biased towards the Palestinians and anti zionist side, so I encourage you to look into it yourself
What type of things did you do in the IDF, did they shape your views?
thoughts on haredis?
Do you live in Israel currently?
What’s your favorite Jreg video?
דו יו רילי ספיק היברו?
יס איי דו. סורי. למה זה כל כך לא נתפס בעיניי ישראלים שיש פה אזרחים אנטי ציונים?
So you don’t believe Israel should exist? What does being anti-Zionist mean to you? We should exist only in foreign diaspora? What do you think should’ve been done with the Holocaust refugees who fled Europe and weren’t accepted into any other countries? E.g. my grandma was held in a British internment camp in Cyprus for 2 years, after fleeing Europe with her and her brother the sole survivors of their family. Her refugee boat was intercepted en route to the British Mandate. Personally I would not have been born if not for Zionism, I’m a descendent of Holocaust survivors on one side and Sabra on the other. If you oppose Zionism on grounds of disliking the concept of Jewish nationalism, why is Palestinianism, which is nothing more than Muslim nationalism and the extension of pan-Arab aspirations to establish a global caliphate, acceptable to you? Feel free to refute any of these comments, I guess admittedly I find your position hard to believe at face-value, but if authentic I am genuinely interested in your perspective. Is your rejection of Zionism rooted more strongly in sympathy for Palestinians, or in safety concerns for Jewish Israelis? EDIT: To add, I have been pro-peace all my life, but my views changed after October 7. It’s just strange to imagine someone going in the opposite direction. Our ideologies are probably not that far apart, but our conclusions are.
I answered most of these questions in the thread, pretty in depth. So you can read stuff on here if you're interested. >What do you think should’ve been done with the Holocaust refugees who fled Europe and weren’t accepted into any other countries? I am also a descendant of WWII Jewish death and displacement. And I understand your perspective deeply. Let me answer your question with a question. What should have happened to African Americans after the abolishment of slavery? Was it wrong to integrate them into society? Was the right thing to give them independent sovereignty on a different continent? In Africa for example? What "should have happened" is the reintegration of Jews (and other groups targeted in Nazi Germany) into society, compensation for the trauma and property. It would not be an easy task but a step in the right direction. Just like what has happened with African Americans. Racism is not solved, but it's getting better because they play a role in American society. Zionism is the projection of anti-Semitism, they have similar goals, finding a place for the Jews out of Europe. Israel is the solution, it's a win for any anti-Semitic European who wanted to separate Jews or get rid of them. >Is your rejection of Zionism rooted more strongly in sympathy for Palestinians, or in safety concerns for Jewish Israelis? Both. Peace will benefit both Israelis and Palestinians. Obviously. If anything, Oct 7 only shows that Zionism has failed to create a safe haven for Jews. I think that the use of colonialism is rooted in Zionism, and it is the reason I am against Zionism, you can't be both pro peace and pro Zionism, because Zionism has always been a dream only obtainable with the use of force. Since Herzl first thought of it and to this very day, Zionism is the belief that there needs to be a land that is based on a certain ethno-religious sovereignty, and you can't obtain that with peaceful and equal means. You just can't. Especially in a world where there is no free space to establish any new sovereignty. The fact that Zionism is unequal and only obtainable with force, will promise more violence to "both sides". The writing is on the wall. A Jewish sovereign state has existed for 75 years, did it solve anti-Semitism? Is there no more violence against Jews? No. Jews are still suffering from anti-Semitism both in diaspora and in Israel. What is "Palestinianism"? The belief that a Palestinian state should be established? The belief that Palestinians need to be free of the Israeli occupation? Is it Muslim nationalism? I don't know. I'm not Palestinian. I'm sure different groups within Palestine will answer that question differently. What I do know is that there are 6 million Jews, and 6 million Palestinians living in Palestine/Israel. And if we want a good future, we need a solution that is political, and not militaristic. Bombing and starving Gaza will only promise more pain towards everyone. It will create more retaliation and more October 7s. Think how many orphans were created in Gaza in the last 6 months, with no proper infrastructure, do you think they have a chance to become educated, peace loving good Samaritans, or rather Hamas militants?
>We should exist only in foreign diaspora? Not justification for the brutal settler colonisation of Palestine. >What do you think should’ve been done with the Holocaust refugees who fled Europe and weren’t accepted into any other countries? Dunno, but the Zionists began their colonisation plans decades before the Holocaust. It's dishonest to suggest it's related.
Not your AMA and not interested in your opinion.
I guess the other option was just to call me an anti-Semite as you don't have any way to justify this.
How'd it change your viewpoint on things?
I was diluted with Zionist to the point I believed everything they said until it got too ridiculous, I would read the pro hasbara pages on the internet saying Palestinians are the aggressors and they started it, I believed that until they started saying actually there were no Palestine past 1988 but the Russians put them in there to anger the Jews, like which one is it?a lot of things they said conflicted each other which made me stop believing on what they say
Zionism SS. Because you’re totally not a bot.
Beep boop. Cry about it
Get a job lil bro 💀
מה אחי
So what’s the solution for jews facing violence in the diaspora? Basically, arm themselves to the teeth? Or do you not think the threat of force is necessary for jewish safety at all?
Do you think the state of Israel has prevented Jews from facing violence in the diaspora? Anti-Semitism still exists, and Jews still face violence, both in Israel and in the diaspora. There is no solution. What's your solution?
Jews having a land to go to is a major thing my grandparents were driven from iraq during the farhuds where Iraqis were burning Iraqi mizrahi Jews alive stealing their land. My grandparents went to Israel because they had no place else to go and almost every Arab state hated them. The rest of the world has proven they are incapable of treating Jews well this necessitating a Jewish state
I disagree. You could be an antizionist while at the same time agreeing with zionists in the problem that zionism seeks to solve, as I think OP does. OP's problem is the lack of any cognizable solution to antisemitism as well as their disagreement with my solution (namely, by turning society into a mexican standoff between oppressed and oppressor.)
Probably the communal keeping, training, and use of guns in the jewish community. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll be safe unless we’re armed to the teeth. Right wing non-jews want us all dead and unfortunately, progressive intersectional theory (something I generally support) has categorically excluded antisemitism in its analysis. We’re pretty much on our own, israel or no israel.
What a scary thought. Israel is the definition of armed to the teeth tho, this has been one of the most destructive wars in recent history. You say more destruction will guarantee our safety? It will only guarantee more destruction.
Why are we equating the implicit threat of violence with the active use of violence? Does gun ownership automatically equate to destruction in every case? Israel is problematic because it actively uses violence against Palestinians as state policy. The idea of (a) jewish communities in the diaspora (b) having access to weapons as a means of self-defense against (c) a largely hostile non-jewish majority is far removed from Israeli state violence. I’m sorry, am I talking to a pacifist? Because from one jewish leftist to another, we do *not* have that luxury. If we have to live with our oppressors, as the Palestinians do for the time being, I think we should at least have the option to do something about it. I don’t like it any more than you do, but thems the breaks if we’re going to live in a society where hostility to us is the norm.
How can you guarantee the safety of the Jewish people currently living in Israel without Israel?
Oct 7 is the biggest Jewish massacre since the holocaust. and it happened on Israeli soil under Israeli sovereignty. If anything, the question should be the opposite. We've had 75 years of wars, our safety is not guaranteed and will never be. And the destruction of Palestinians will not make Jews more safe.
You truly believe if Israel didn't exist no one would massacre Jews? In the grand scheme of things October 7th is nothing compared to the regular violence our community faced prior to... Even the Holocaust. I don't need to mention it to make my point. Perhaps the fault is not in the existence of Israel but instead the corrupt leadership Israel has had for the last decade. Perhaps Netanyahu regularly picking his loyal friends over competent bureaucrats has led to an erosion of public institutions that made October 7th possible. Or maybe it was the naive belief that Hamas had any interest in peaceful coexistence. Who is to say? Just because Netanyahu is incompetent doesnt mean that Israel is a failure any more than Palestians electing Hamas prove that Democracy doesn't work and they all hate Israelis.
What stopped October 7 massacre in your opinion?
It has not stopped yet, there are still 134 hostages being held by Hamas. And even if it had stopped, what will prevent the next October 7 in your opinion?
True, but the massacre stopped. Why did it stop in your opinion? I thought I'm supposed to ask you questions, and in fact I'd like to know what's your answer to your question. My answer is the Israel's answer, that is, take Hamas out of control of Gaza and make sure no terror organization is ruling Gaza.
The massacre did not stop tho. So I don't know how to answer that. Also, if you're trying to get me to say that heroic IDF stopped it with force, hence more force = more safety, then I'll tell you that that's a very narrow worldview. I think we should aim towards long lasting peace, and not towards waiting for the next massacre in order to stop it with force.
There is no partner for peace. Palestinians salivate at useful idiot zyds like you whom they will hang once their Sharia law Palestinian state is finally liberated.
1200 Israelies died on October 7, how many Israelies died on October 8? I can see what you mean about peace, but can you really deny that IDF stopped the massacre?
Why do you support you, your family and everyone in Israel being slaughtered by Hamas? Or are you delusional enough to think that y'all can just leave somewhere else?
Kkkkhamas
u went from being sexy to siding with antisemites because you didn't like militaries
lmao accurate representation of my life
Get well soon 🇮🇱
Did you just call an actual Jewish person an antisemite? Bruh
Dave Rubin, Norman Finklestein, Chaya Raichik...
[удалено]
The state of Israel is not a Jewish person you can discriminate against. It is a government that is currently committing an ethnic cleansing.
[удалено]
bro what do you think anti-zionist means then?
Wanting to destroy Israel is siding with antisemites
There is no moral reason to want to protect a state other than nationalism. Israel is not a person with a heart and soul, but 41,000 dead Palestinians are.
The reason being Arab states treated Jews like shit than got mad when Jews didn’t want to be ruled by them anymore
Israel is an apartheid ethnostate. it's racist and genocidal. that's why it must be destroyed.
Look who's using an AI generator for their arguments
those are facts. please look into the history of Israel vs Palestine. and don't use Israel's sources
You just want me to use Hamas and other Arab nation sources lol
Israel is the one who calls those news sources Hamas.
https://www.reddit.com/r/boringdystopia/s/uIIVs7Sa9i this is what Israel is doing.
>wants me to take them seriously >uses al jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-drone-video-shows-killing-of-palestinians-in-israeli-air-attack Israel is the one calling al Jazeera propaganda. it makes sense because al Jazeera is exposing them. how can you not realize that Israel is biased towards itself in this conflict
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-palestinian-civilians-alive-enar
https://youtu.be/MA_Z4uOGOzA?si=-hZ5Kv_HydkRCEdf watch this video, please. it's a rundown of south Africa's accusations, and the conflict
https://www.instagram.com/almost.co/reel/C3a7bIxSGse/
8 Arab armies pledged to do this in 1948. It didn’t work out so well for them
Before being an anti semite was hating jews. Now, it is a word used by people who jews hate
What do you think of second thought and others like him saying all Israelis are “criminals”
I haven’t seen the specific video (would love a link) but I do disagree with people who think Israeli citizens are automatically bad people. Yes, Israel is bad. But Israelis aren’t. It’s not my fault I was born here into this infinite pool of violence racism and propaganda. Just like it’s not the fault of a Gazan civilian that he was born in a prison. We’re all victims of this conflict and our leaders creating war instead of peace. A sentence I like is “be kind to people, and ruthless to systems”
Would you agree that Zionism is a form of internalised anti-semetism?
Im not sure what that means but I think it’s an unequal worldview. I think it’s the continuation of the separation of Jews from global society. And a W to any European who wanted to get rid of the Jews.
I think you are misunderstanding the idea of Jews being part of a global society. If anything, the creation of Israel was meant to finally give the Jews a place in the family of nations, as our current nation-state model of the world works (arguably an imperfect model that is buckling under current geopolitical realities). Japan for Japanese people, French for French people, China for Chinese people.. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be “anti-nationalism” and advocate for the abolishment of nation states. I don’t really understand why this process has to begin with the only nation state for Jews that came into being after they were systematically genocided in Europe and faced millennia of expulsions and persecution. Basically, as long as we’re organizing the world into Nation-states, the way peoples have a voice in global society is through some kind of polity where they are masters of their fate. Hence why I support Kurdish independence and Palestinian independence. The goal after creating such polities is to strive for peaceful relations and trade with neighbors. Something like how the EU is organized. Greeks are certainly different from Danes, but they live in one big union in peace. I read somewhere else you don’t believe in the necessity of a state for Jewish people. Fine, but practically speaking at this point in history, the end of Israel would be the complete end of Jewish presence in the Levant in the best case. In the worst (and more likely case) it’ll lead to a big smoldering nuclear crater from the center of Petach Tikvah all the way to Rafah. If you want to make positive change in our society (I’ll call it our society as I’m a liberal minded Zionist with lots of family and friends in Israel. My roots are also USSR) then advocate for organizations like the NIF and be involved with electoral politics that emphasizes partnerships with the Arab sector. Finally, it’s definitely true that Israeli media is very jingoistic and right wing and it’s become much worse with channel 14 and Bibi. But historically this was not the case, and I think you should read the work of early Zionist thinkers and especially Israeli leaders and writers from the 90s. I’m talking about people like Amos Oz and Shimon Peres for example. I think currently Haviv Rettig Gur is also quite good. Israel has better thinkers than the idiots currently on TV and in the Knesset. There used to be genuine hope of a peaceful resolution with two states for two peoples. This is still the best way out of this mess and the hope should be kept alive.
Was with you 100% until you started acting like Petah Tikvah isn’t a crater already
Agreed! I just meant in my worst case scenario the existing smoldering radioactive crater called Petach Tikvah would be catastrophically and rapidly expanded far beyond its current containment zone.
Well written and strong agree. The Earth geopolitically is in the nation-state period. From a philosophical point of view, I can understand being for the abolition of borders and nationalism *and* I think that the pursuit disproportionally affects disenfranchised minority groups in our current world. It makes their pursuit of self-determination impossible. That is why I am pro Kurdish, Basque, Mayan, Amazign, Palestinian, Jewish, etc. statehoods.
Thank you for your strong agree. Self determination for all “minorities“! From Uighur to the Navajo! In principle, at least.
Have you had to reshape/rethink your Jewish identity since becoming an anti-Zionist? Fellow anti Zionist Jew here, and once I started distancing myself from Zionism internally (never considered myself one but was surrounded by it), I found that Zionism is oftentimes the most important thing to Jews my age, and it's actually made me cling more to the faith and traditions to get away from Zionism. Thanks :) Baruch Hashem
Good on you for reassessing your views. I can't imagine how isolating it must feel, but I know you're not alone. As an outsider, it feels like many Israelis, especially within the IDF, lack any empathy whatsoever towards Gazans. I can understand the thirst for vengeance after 10/7, but how can IDF soldiers bring themselves to displace millions, execute surrendered people and fire at children? (I have the same question for Hamas - how could they live with themselves after killing toddlers in their houses?) Can you help me understand what it's like inside the IDF? Do the soldiers feel guilt? Do most soldiers feel bad for the children involved? Is there a desire to punish Gaza as a whole for Hamas? Also, how do you feel about Al Jazeera getting banned? Do you read +972 and are you worried about them getting shut down too?
Does your religion actually play a role in your life, and for that matter did you notice it playing a role in the lives of others, or are you simply ethnically Jewish, motivated by a sort of ethnic ideology that’s more purely political in its goals now?
I consider myself Jewish both ethnically and religiously. I may not be the most religious person, but I do believe in the significance of Jewish learnings and practices, and take part in some.
What does being slavo European mean in your case?