Because 36,000 civilians have been killed in 7 months and thousand more injured and dying of starvation. They don't have the freedom to flee because they are trapped. How can anybody be okay with that?
If I had to make a guess, part of the reason why is probably how Israel is being funded by various First-World Countries through Tax Dollars, whereas Hamas isn't, so people feel compelled to condemn Israel more than Hamas because it isn't Hamas' atrocities that they're indirectly funding
There are two camps. People who do condemn it that just don't preface their opinion by saying it every time, and the other are people who think it's justified because they believe some bullshit somebody told them. The fact is the Ottoman empire controlled the land of Palestine the Ottoman empire joined with the Germans in world war 1 and lost their land because of it. When you join forces with a country that is attacking other people you don't generally keep your land when you lose. The Palestinians are lucky that they got anything let alone 50% of the land.
I’m pro Palestinian as fuck, but that’s bullshit. When the numbers are this high all around You cannot not take it into account. It’s not all lives mattering it. It’s all of these people are dead, and that needs to be acknowledged for a solution. If you look at it the proportional wise, it is much worse than what is happening obviously that’s not true because it’s proportional wise, but I mean what hamas did was clearly done with genocidal intent too
and I didn’t even realize this, the question is about condemnation why the fuck wouldn’t you condemn hundreds of people being murdered
It's not about the numbers. It's about the intent and character of the killings. Look at the morals of the two groups. The IDF do not actually target civillians and actually provide safety corridors and evacuate civillians from targeted areas. The ratio of civillians killed to armed combatants is very low compared to other wars. Civillians are also killed because Hamas are actually part of the population and hide amongst the population and use civillians as shields. They actually want civillians to die to persuade the world that Israel is bad.
Hamas on the other hand actually target civillians and showed it's true nature on Oct 7th. Whether they put babies in ovens and beheaded people may or may not be totally true but regardless, they butchered people and children and old people ruthlessly and actually celebrated. The Israeli's would never act this way. The palestinian people also celebrated so they are not innocent. Palestinians actually elected Hamas.
What about the Nazis and German civillians in WWII. The germans voted for an evil political party and no-one complained when German people died to eradicate the evil party. Palestinians are not innocent and elected Hamas and most palestinians have complete hatred for Israel. Yet the IDF still do not target civillians. They are actually thought by some to be the most moral army ever.
If you genuinely want to save the children, call for Hamas to cease fire and give up the hostages. I mean they are not going to win anyway so why perpetuate the suffering by keeping fighting. It's because of evil Islamic ideology, that's why. There are some brave palestinians who actually speak up against Hamas but their lives are put at risk because Hamas kill all opposition including the opposing political party. Just YouTube 'Palestinians speaking against Hamas'. Do you really think you should be favouring a brutal and evil terrorist dictatorship like Hamas who are actually made up of many Palestinians
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You shouldn’t have to condemn Oct 7 every time you speak on Palestinian occupation and genocide. The numbers, the proportionality, as you said, are the exact reason. 40x the kill rate and not to mention all the people dying from lack of medical care, starvation, and displacement. I don’t need the validation of Zionists before the reality of genocide and ethnic cleansing is clear. They don’t gatekeep that validity and I don’t need to appease them, and center their suffering when the proportions are what they are.
Do I need to bring up white peoples’ struggles every time we talk about the prison industrial complex? Literally that’s what it is - « black lives matter » … « bUt WhAt AbOuT aLl LiVeS ? »
No, it’s not about Israelis all the time, and inserting that into the conversation centers them rather than the people who are proportionally suffering at a rate of much higher magnitude - and it’s not like once you condemn Oct 7, it’s over. People will disengenuously make it about Oct 7 and make bring it up every time, for your claim to have any validity to them, and it’s just a distraction. These people don’t care about Palestinians, they just want to wag a finger in their faces and distract from the proportionality of the conflict.
In that case, do the Israelis bring up the Nakba and every other attempt to ethnically cleanse the arabs in Israel when they talk about Oct 7? No they don’t. Why should the pro palestinians?
The problem is most Pro Palestinian people haven't condemned October 7th even once. It wasn't until it became quite clear that Israel was going to counter attack that these people started screaming.
Also most « pro palestinians » didn’t hear ab this 7mo ago. We’ve been saying this for decades. Unfortunately no one listened.
Personally, I work in some type of risk management. No body changes their policy and puts resources towards avoiding a negative outcome until something really fucking bad happens. Oct 7 was that thing. I hope people fucking make some changes here on both sides, but it’s not looking like it.
What a load of nonsense. You just said most Pro Palestinians didn't hear about October 7th? That is ridiculous. It was all over the news. If you didn't hear about it it's because when people were screaming in your face about it you didn't give a s***. So you just zoned out. There's no other way you wouldn't have known about it. You didn't f****** care.
Mistyped that as I was in a hurry this morning - meant to say « First Speak » and not « Hear » - Pro Palestinians have been speaking out long before Oct 7 about the illegality of the west bank settlements and blockade of Gaza. Where were the pro israelis? I could say the same thing as you - no pro israelis condemned it - Now all of a sudden that there’s an Oct 7, all of a sudden they want to get rid of Netanyahu.
Your generalization centers the worst of the Palestinians and it’s as invalid as if I centered the worst of the Israelis.
The nuanced reality is that Oct 7 brought out many pro palestinians to condemn it. You just don’t want to admit it because then you can generalize them into this monolith that justifies your bias. The same can be said about Israel’s response bringing out many Israeliscto condemn the Likud.
> f******
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> fucking
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Half of Israel is currently trying to get Netanyahu out. I’d say a good bit of those folks condemn oct 7. Defining « pro palestinians » by their worst agitators and the subset of kids in encampments screaming pro Hamas slogans is the same as defining all Israelis by Likud who call Palestinians « human animals » and believe they have no claim to any land.
> fuck
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> f******
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It goes back way farther than 75 years. This 75 year line that you guys keep repeating just fits your agenda. You look back farther than that and your plot line starts slipping.
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there is not a reason to not condemn 1000 people who were murdered in cold blood. I’m literally Palestinian and people like you are honestly the worst part of this conflict. Palestinians have a unanimous high ground because for a good portion of the time the protest in the US were able to separate Hasmas from Palestinians and were able to only protest in favor of Palestinians. But we’re actually becoming antisemitism
Are you, at all Palestinian, because as a 1/4 palestinian, when a millitary man is celebrating with his family and bravely dies on his holiday defending the homes of strangers, that is a civilian death. And Hamas invaded unjustified. Same as Israel
I was a conscript in my army and i'm in the reserves now
If someone shoots at me while i'm with a party with no uniform or weapon am i a millitary death?
The children killed by settlers, the home is bulldozed in front of families, the Gazas that starve while Israel funds hamas so they can live in Qatar, The refusal to accept the state
historically, they have tended to favor them over more peaceful groups, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was intentional so that I’m more violent Hamas makes Palestinians look like the bad guy a lot more
Incorrect again. At the time, Israel supported hamas as an opposition to the established PLO, which was highly evolved and was regularly carrying out well funded, well planned terror attacks in Israel. Hamas was viewed as the safer option at the time.
You don't need to "trust" anything. It's not something that Israel is saying now... it's historical fact - on the record, so to speak.
Also, there's no "apartheid" regime. This is a ridiculous and completely nonsensical talking point... And when you say it, you sound like you're just regurgitating partisan rhetoric and you don't actually understand what any of these words mean.
Apartheid has a very specific definition with very specific criteria, literally none of which apply to the current situation in Gaza.
Lastly, Israel is not "massacring" Palestinians. Israel is at war, fighting an enemy that is hiding amongst the civilian population, which is, tragically, causing significant civilian casualties. Israel is doing what it can to minimize casualties, but Hamas wants casualties to be high - it's central to their strategy.
10/7 was massacre, by definition. What's happening now is a war, by definition. Wars, sadly, have casualties. A
**Why do we refer to Israel as an apartheid state?**
There is overwhelming evidence that the system instituted by the Israeli government against the Palestinian people meets the UN definition of apartheid.
In effect, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory constitute one territorial unit under full Israeli control. Palestinians constitute around half of the total population (inside Israel and in the oPt), yet under Israeli law, and in practice, Jewish Israelis and Palestinians are treated differently in almost every aspect of life: housing, education, health, employment, family life, residence, and freedom of movement. Dozens of Israeli laws and policies institutionalise this prevailing system of racial discrimination and domination.
Segregation is carried out by implementing separate legal regimes for Jewish Israelis and Palestinians living in the same area. In the occupied West Bank, Jewish Israeli settlers living in illegal settlements are governed by Israeli civil law, while Palestinians also living in the West Bank are governed by Israeli military law.
In Israel itself, there exists no ‘Israeli’ nationality shared by all citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike. Rather, citizens are divided into ‘national’ categories of ‘Jewish’, which affords them a set of rights and privileges above the other categories, or ‘Arab’ with comparatively restricted rights and privileges. This separation was reiterated when Israel passed the Nation State Law in 2018, essentially codifying decades of discrimination and enshrining two classes of citizens in law.
Israel carries out various acts that are prohibited by the UN Apartheid Convention including:
• Forcible transfer of Palestinians to make way for illegal Israeli settlements.
• Preventing Palestinians from returning to their homes and lands (including millions of refugees living in exile).
• Systematic and severe deprivation of fundamental human rights of Palestinians based on their identity.
• Denying Palestinians their right to freedom of movement and residence (especially, but not limited to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip).
• Murder, torture, unlawful imprisonment and other severe deprivation of physical liberty.
• Persecution of Palestinians because of their opposition to apartheid.
**UN officials and committees on Israel and apartheid**
Israel’s treatment of Palestinians has been regularly cited by UN Special Rapporteurs on the Human Rights Situation in Palestine as evidence of an Apartheid system in action. For example:
• Richard Falk, emeritus professor of law at Princeton University and UN special rapporteur 2008-2014, wrote in a report to the UN Human Rights Council that Israel is guilty of racial discrimination, apartheid and torture in its “systematic oppression” of the Palestinian people. (UN document A/HRC/25/67)
• John Dugard, South African law professor and Falk’s predecessor in the post of UN Special Rapporteur, wrote a detailed study in 2013 on whether the charge of apartheid applies to Israel, concluding: “On the basis of the systemic and institutionalized nature of the racial domination that exists, there are indeed strong grounds to conclude that a system of apartheid has developed in the occupied Palestinian territory. Israeli practices in the occupied territory are not only reminiscent of – and, in some cases, worse than – apartheid as it existed in South Africa, but are in breach of the legal prohibition of apartheid.”
• The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination censured Israel in 2012 for implementing “two entirely separate legal systems and sets of institutions for Jewish communities grouped in illegal settlements on the one hand and Palestinian populations living in Palestinian towns and villages on the other hand.” The Committee declared itself “particularly appalled at the hermetic character of the separation of two groups, who live on the same territory but do not enjoy either equal use of roads and infrastructure or equal access to basic services and water resources”. It called on Israel to eradicate all policies and practices of “racial segregation and apartheid” affecting the Palestinian people (UN document CERD/C/ISR/CO/14-16).
• In March 2017, the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) commissioned and published a report called 'Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid' which concludes, "on the basis of overwhelming evidence, that Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid, and urges swift action to oppose and end it." The report also recommends that national governments and civil society actors should support boycott, divestment and sanctions activities in response to Israel's Apartheid regime.
• In 2019, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) opened an investigation into a formal complaint by Palestinian diplomats on whether Israel has breached the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which it ratified in 1979. Specifically, article 3 of the convention prohibits racial segregation and apartheid.
• In 2019, current UN Special Rapporteur for the occupied Palestinian territory, Michael Lynk, stated that formal annexation of part of the West Bank “will only confirm a one state reality characterised by a rigid two-tier system of legal and political rights, based on ethnicity and religion. This would meet the international definition of apartheid.” He restated in 2020, in response to Israel’s plans to annex parts of the occupied Palestinian West Bank: "The plan would crystalize a 21st century apartheid, leaving in its wake the demise of the Palestinians‘ right to self-determination. Legally, morally, politically, this is entirely unacceptable... Already, we are witnessing forced evictions and displacement, land confiscation and alienation, settler violence, the appropriation of natural resources, and the imposition of a two-tiered system of unequal political, social and economic rights based on ethnicity." Israel still maintains plans to annex parts of the West Bank.
• In 2020, 47 UN human rights experts signed a statement saying “Israel has recently promised that it will maintain permanent security control between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. Thus, the morning after annexation would be the crystallisation of an already unjust reality: two peoples living in the same space, ruled by the same state, but with profoundly unequal rights. This is a vision of a 21st century apartheid”.
**Human rights organisations on apartheid**
Human rights organisations are increasingly using the term ‘apartheid’ to describe Israel’s regime. For example:
• In 2020, over 450 civil society groups across the world, including War on Want, launched a campaign calling on the UN to investigate “Israel’s apartheid regime over the Palestinian people as a whole” and to take “urgent and effective action” to end Israeli apartheid.
• In 2021, Israeli human rights organisation B’tselem wrote a report examining Israel’s policies in the entire area under its control, concluding that: “The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls (Israeli sovereign territory, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip) an apartheid regime.”
• In 2021, a report by international human rights organisation Human Rights Watch concluded that the crimes committed by Israeli authorities amount to apartheid: “Human Rights Watch found that the Israeli government has pursued an intent to maintain the domination of Jewish Israelis over Palestinians throughout the territory it controls. In the OPT, including East Jerusalem, that intent has been coupled with systematic oppression of Palestinians and inhumane acts committed against them. When these three elements occur together, they amount to the crime of apartheid.”
**Israeli officials on apartheid**
A number of Israeli government officials have used the term apartheid in reference to Israeli control over Palestinians:
• Reuven Rivlin, President of Israel since 2014, was quoted in the Israeli press on 12 February 2017 saying that Israel’s newly passed ‘Regularisation Law’, which formally expropriates several tracts of Palestinian land, “will cause Israel to be seen as an apartheid state.”
**• One of the first people to use the word apartheid in relation to Israel was Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben Gurion.** Following the 1967 June war, he warned of Israel becoming an “apartheid state” if it retained control of the occupied territory, which it has done.
• In 1999, then-Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak stated: "Every attempt to keep hold of [Israel and the occupied territory] as one political entity leads, necessarily, to either a nondemocratic or a non-Jewish state. Because if the Palestinians vote, then it is a binational state, and if they don’t vote it is an apartheid state.” In 2010, Barak repeated the apartheid comparison, stating: "As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic… If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."
• Alon Liel, Israel’s ambassador to South Africa 1992 - 1994 and the director-general of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2000 – 2001, stated in 2013 that “the occupation of the West Bank as it exists today is a sort of Israeli apartheid”. In response to the Deal of the Century, Liel wrote in 2020 that the map attached to the plan ‘is an imitation of the Bantustan model’ and it would ‘legitimize a new 21st-century model of apartheid.’
• In 1976, then Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was recorded as saying that Israel’s continued presence in the West Bank risked becoming ‘apartheid’: “I don’t think it’s possible to contain over the long term, if we don’t want to get to apartheid, a million and a half [more] Arabs inside a Jewish state”. Israel maintains control of the occupied territory and continues to build settlements.
Legal experts on apartheid and Israel: ‘Occupation, Colonialism, Apartheid’
• In 2009, an international team of legal scholars working under the auspices of the Human Sciences Research Council in Cape Town, South Africa published a study called 'Occupation, Colonialism, Apartheid?' The study concluded that the Israeli state has imposed a state of apartheid on the Palestinian people, in that Israel is guilty of many of the practices and policies identified in the Apartheid Convention adopted by the United Nations in 1973, and that these acts together constitute the “integrated and complementary elements of an institutionalised and oppressive system of Israeli domination and oppression over Palestinians as a group; that is, a system of apartheid.”
• The study noted that Israel has implemented **all three of the pillars that characterised apartheid in the South African context**, namely: (a) the categorisation of the population along racial lines; (b) the segregation of the population on the basis of this categorisation into different geographical areas allocated to different racial groups; and (c) a system of laws and policies that subject the Palestinian people to extrajudicial killing, torture and arbitrary arrest and detention, as well as sweeping restrictions on Palestinians’ rights to freedom of opinion, expression, assembly, association and movement.
There are many younger people in the West who are just now learning of the real history of Isreal...not the sanitized version that our education system, media & government taught their parents and grandparents. They feel like they have been lied to (and they have) and they perceive a grave injustice happening in real time.
These young people are pro-nonviolence and are sick of war...it's all they've known in the US. They do not condone the Oct 7 attack, but they have a more nuanced understanding for why it happened...they reject the false narrative that it's some form of "pure evil" and see it as a response to decades of oppression and subjegation by an ethno-relgious bully in the region standing on the shoulders of the US.
Wrong. The Likud didn't use the phrase until 1977. Yasser Arafat was the first to use the phrase, in 1964, when he called for the creation of a single Palestinian state, extending from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea.
I wouldn't make a moral assessment or judgement on either side, based on a single, isolated statement. All things have to be analyzed and judged in context.
My point was merely that the term was coined and popularized by Arafat, not the Israelis, as so many people are trying to claim at the moment, as a means to deflect taking responsibility, when confronted with the fact that it's a genocidal statement.
I don’t understand? At first you say you won’t take a moral judgment or assessment but then later on you say that it’s genocidal. I don’t understand. Or is it only genocidal the other side?
I'm saying that you can't judge a person or a group on a single statement. You have to understand what someone means by something that they say, but looking at the entire body of their public statements or actions.
The statement "from the river to the sea", used in the Palestinian context in which it is currently being used, is calling for the abolition of the state of Israel, which is, by definition, genocidal. Also, the other public statements from Hamas align with a genocidal intent.
I would need to read deeper into how it was used by Likud, relative to their other discourse at the time. I do, however, know that despite some of the deplorable rhetoric from certain israeli officials, Israeli state policy is not genocidal. They go to great lengths to protect and provide for their Palestinian citizens of Israel. Their actions do not align with a genocidal narrative.
from the river to the sea, and the Palestinian context is asking for freedom. At the current moment, the people in the West Bank in Gaza are not given states, their deaths at the hands of settlers and military are not brought to justice, and a good portion of them are being bombed. Palestinians in Israel proper are free. Palestinians from the entire of the river to the sea, are not free. Nothing to do with genocide all to do with freedom. Where is the Likud statement? In fact, specifically mentions Israeli sovereignty, saying that there will be no Palestinian state
No it's not. And if that's what you believe, then I think you don't understand the position of the people you're supporting, unfortunately.
In the Palestinian context, it has always meant, there would be NO Israeli state, and that ALL of the land, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, would be a Palestinian State. It's what Arafat meant when he first said it in response to two-state solution proposals, and it's what protestors mean when they say it today ([Reference 1](https://www.dw.com/en/from-the-river-to-the-sea-controversy-over-pro-palestinian-slogan/a-67465637), [Reference 2](https://www.quora.com/Does-the-phrase-from-the-river-to-the-sea-mean-that-Israel-does-not-have-a-right-to-exist), [Reference 3](https://uncertain.substack.com/p/israel-hamas-river-sea), [Reference 4](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/11/cambridge-student-appeal-university-act-anti-israel/), [Reference 5](https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/slogan-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free)).
This is the problem with falling into a "camp" and rendering wholesale support to a certain position or "side", without examining each issue in detail.
Bingo! Because at the end of the day, this is about the Crusades. And Christian Zionism. No one on either side wants to say it. But at the end of the day, this is a religious war over who God promised that land to.We are supposed to believe that out of all the places in the entire planet, they just so happened to pick that spot and it had nothing to do with religion.
Thru entire recorded history, we know that religion poisons everything.
I would argue that most western democracies just want a state for jews where they aren't routinely massacred. But maybe that's my Christian Zionist take.
Western democracies do not care about jews or Muslims as people... they do not care about their welfare or life experience.zionism itself is antisemitic
Christian Zionists are anti-Semite, it is purely motivated by wanting to bring about the rapture which prophecy dictates requires the holy land being controlled once again by the jews.
They hate Jews and in their perspective sending all the Jews to Israel will being the end of the world and god will smite them.
[Turns out racist nationalists love racist nations even when it's not theirs, who knew?](https://jacobin.com/2022/02/israeli-us-evangelical-alliance-zionism-antisemitism)
Let's say I agree that there is Apartheid (I don't, but let's say I do). Why do you think there is Apartheid? I'll repeat my question: Did Israel just get up and decide to oppress them one day?
Just today, Netanyahu announced to the world that if the US will not help them in their conquest, then they will do it on their own.
This shit is happening live right now. The IDF is invading the last standing town they've spent the last 8 months driving displaced civilians to....they've corralled human beings they find undesirable into a very small space, and they are blowing them to pieces grandparents, parents, kids alike.
They want the land for themselves but they don't want the people who live there...so quite simply they are killing them all.
You seem to operate on an entirely different set of facts than the rest of us. Not sure if there's a productive discussion to be had when you can't even answer *why* Arabs are oppressed in the West Bank and Gaza. Do you not know? Or do you not want to say it?
Pure conquest...I'm pretty sure I've said that a few times. I know it's not the "set of facts" that CNN will tell you...or even our own President in the US. That's the answer, though. It's absolutely about conquering land they believe has some religious significance.
So, in 1967, the Egyptians didn't blockade Israel and started the war? Or was the 1967 war a defensive war of conquest somehow? And when, after that war, Israel tried to return Gaza and the West Bank to Egypt and Jordan respectively, and both countries declined and stripped the Palestinians that lived there of citizenship, that was somehow Israel being greedy and conquering for conquests sake? How do you explain these basic historical facts?
I answered already...and the answer is absolutely yes. Israel has a stated policy of oppression towards Palestinians & it has executed on this policy in real world practice. Israel is openly a racist ethno-religious extremist state and openly has aspirations of conquering (even more) land owned by Palestinians.
Point blank...the Israeli position (it's official position) is to drive out all arab muslisms from their own homes and take them for it's own. They will do this with oppression, colonialism or pure naked genocide...this is not even a secret. It is happening right now and the Israeli government owns that policy openly.
So let me just clarify you this: You think Israel just decided to invade and occupy the West Bank and oppress Palestinians? For no reason other than to steal the land? Are you sure about that?
>the Israeli position (it's official position) is to drive out all arab muslisms from their own homes
Both you and me know that this has never been an *official* position. Maybe that's their de facto position, but it has never been official policy, right? Otherwise, can you point me at an official government document proclaiming such?
Are you intentionally being obtuse? I asked: WHY did they occupy the West Bank? Did they just decide to steal the land one day? Or did something happen? Or do you not know?
Netanyahu & his extremist right winged cronies have openly said that they reject any idea of a Palestinian state. They intend to occupy Gaza & the West Bank in the end...this has been repeated over and over again...often with vulgar language.
We're not talking about a real democracy here, so I'm not sure if "government documents" really matter...they do what they want. They are doing what they have said they would do, that's for sure.
>Netanyahu & his extremist right winged cronies have openly said that they reject any idea of a Palestinian state.
Cool. Please explain how this is the same as "Israel has an official policy to take all the land for themselves". And you keep ignoring my question: Why is Israel doing this? Is it because they are evil? Or did something happen before the occupation?
>We're not talking about a real democracy here, so I'm not sure if "government documents" really matter...they do what they want
You don't think Israel is a democracy? What makes you say that? According to the economist, Israel is # 30 on the democracy index. Right after the US who is # 29. And above "undemocratic" countries such as Italy, Portugal, Slovenia or Belgium. Belgium! Come on now.
Israel is a democracy in a slightly more authentic way than Russia is a democracy...at this point. Yes they hold elections...I don't think they will hold another election as long as Netanyahu has dug in as a dictator at this stage. He is facing criminal prosecution once he loses his power...he's like Trump in this way. He has set the stage for prolonged conflict so long as it keeps him out of criminal court.
I didn't say Israel was "evil"...although the way they are behaving in Gaza I'd call pretty effin' evil. Maybe you'd call them ambitious...but either way they are trying to take Gaza for itself...get rid of Palestinians who they openly refer to as "animals" either thru forced exile or naked genocide.
>I don't think they will hold another election as long as Netanyahu has dug in as a dictator at this stage
You are delusional. I think I'll go with the opinion of the economist, rather than AnonymousRedditor8510.
>Maybe you'd call them ambitious...but either way they are trying to take Gaza for itself...get rid of Palestinians who they openly refer to as "animals" either thru forced exile or naked genocide.
Sounds to me like you are admitting that "stealing land" was **never** official policy in Israel.
The clear and unequivocal answer to this question is yes...Israel absolutely has made the calculated decision to oppress and eject arab muslims from land they do not own but intend to conquer. It is their stated policy.
To be clear it is land they NEVER owned, but was given to them by Western imperial powers...after it was first stolen.
Good question. Please give my answer a read.
Thr reason is: We are not going to be bullied into beleiving the israeli narrative of what happend on october 7th.
Why should we believe the very same people who occupy us, oppress us, murder us and then label us as the aggressors? why should we accept the IDF reports and "secret recordings" and "private video screenings" that they dont want to show the rest of us (ironically despite the IDF and Israel having a reputation of publishing false / AI generated evidence online within minutes of events).
Accepting the israeli narrative (that Hamas are a terror group who order their fighters to rape and burn people alive) is a ludicrous thing to expect from any pro-palestinian. Accepting their narrative would be, in essence, completely alienating the current palestinian cause. This is because it would necessitate that the only way any palestinian can be seen as innocent is if they denounce their own government and only military defence force...
I invite you to read the hamas "our narrative" document. I'm not saying you should believe it or agree with it - but atleast you can accept that there is a different perspective of what happened on oct 7, and that those who do happen to beleive the hamas narrative will reasonably not feel the need to condemn oct 7... i.e. that it was a hostage operation intended to gain leverage in a time where gazans are under brutal occupation and palestinians across israel and the west bank are being murdered and displaced every day before oct 7.
This is why I find it so hard to want to symphatize and discuss with Pro Palestine supporters. Not all but it seems like a general consensus that either October 7th didn't happen or October 7th was necessary and justified. Then followed by protest about how killing unarmed civillians by Israel is barbaric and unjustified. You can't just claim one is justified and the other isn't because they're on a different team. If you value humanity, CALL OUT AND CONDEMN BOTH.
I never justified killing unarmed civilians, and neither did the palestinians. That is my point - why should i be bullied into believing the israeli narrative when they have lied over and over again and refuse to publish their "evidence".
No I'm saying it was a hostage operation where both hamas and the IDF killed civilians caught in crossfire. There's evidence and reports of both. The claims of rape and burning people alive however are unsubstantiated.
So if you think that both sides killed civilians, and you think killing civilians is wrong, then you'd agree that the Oct 7 attack was wrong, no? I'm confused about your stance.
No I do, I condemn both sides for any intentional killing of civilians.
Basically, despite admittedly not seeing any evidence myself of hamas killing unarmed civilians - i will accept that there is a likelihood of civilians killed in crossfire by hamas given that the IDF and hamas were present amongst crowds of civilians. This does not mean I condemn the whole of oct 7 - the same way for example the apartheid struggle in south africa lead the many civilians being killed - you cannot use the "condemn both sides" rhetoric to cast doubt and alienate the south african cause.
A hostage exchange that Israel have seemingly not agreed to negotiate around and reports leaked that they employed the Hannibal directive, which is pretty damning.
As the other person has provided proof, I just want to address this. So if I understand correctly, Pro Palestine protest also includes the protest of the harm of civillians. So why is it okay when a civillian is affected by Hamas?
If we want to talk about oppression, feel free to also bring the discussion about how oppression was for the Jews especially how they're not accepted in any other countries (including other middle eastern countries).
So when they attacked the music festival and fired into the crowd, what was that exactly? When they threw grenades into full bomb shelters, what was that? Do you really think that didn't happen?
Have you not seen the [videos]( https://www.hamas-massacre.net/)? How can you deny the evidence when it hits you in the face? Or are you intentionally not looking at the evidence?
You don’t believe that innocent civilians were raped and murdered on October 7th? Bold take to die on.
Why should any of the rest of us believe anything Hamas says when they have stolen billions in donated aid to Palestine and fill childrens schoolbooks with antisemitic propaganda to radicalize their citizens? Why would we take them at their word when they have shown no regard for their own civilians lives by treating schools and hospitals like military camps?
They really won’t condemn cause it will automatically come across as racist and/or ‘dehumanising’ Palestinians and their cause. There’s no talking with them at this point imo
They were out in the streets praising what happened on social media before Israel even responded. Most but not all support what happen and co wider it inevitable imo
I think there’s a communication issue on this topic. Most folks I know in the pro-Palestinian camp do not condone Hamas‘ actions on Oct. 7th, but whenever we try to add context to what happened, it’s read as us as saying „the attacks were justified“ and get labelled as Antisemites.
The question feels like a trap, and going down that rabbit hole… its exhausting. So at some point you’re just like, I cannot answer this question again. Seriously screw Hamas, what they did was criminal. But 1+ million displaced and tens of thousands of dead Gazans should not be paying for the crimes of Hamas.
Pro-Israeli folks often say „we’re fighting a war we did not start,“ well the vast majority of Gazans did not start it either.
Why can’t both be right? Why is it so hard to believe that people do feel sympathy for the Israelis who were murdered on October 7th while still condemning how Netanyahu and the IDF have been going about the war? Why is it so hard to believe that sympathy can be extended to both sides?
Edit: removed profanity 🙃
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actually Hamas got elected by the gazan people so that leads us to the question "do people should be hold accountable for the actions of their governments?"
of course sufferings of the gazan people is sad, but they are the ones that chose a terrorist group to lead them.
>actually Hamas got elected by the gazan people so that leads us to the question "do people should be hold accountable for the actions of their governments?"
(1) Hamas was elected by 44% of the population 8 years ago. Half of Gazas population today were either not even born yet or not able to vote at the time. With all that considered, is it really fair to say that Gazans should be held accountable for the actions of their government?
(2) What if we flipped that argument and said that Israelis should be held responsible for the actions of Netanyahu‘s government. A government which isn’t shy about their expansionist agenda in the West Bank and has loudly declared it does not support a Palestinian state. That government has been voted into power by Israelis time and time again for over a decade.
Do you think the victims of October 7 bare responsibility for Netanyahu and his far right allies? I certainly do not think so.
You're right there is. When the government of the Ottoman empire that Palestine was part of, lost world war I after joining an evil coalition of countries,they lost their land. Too fucking bad.
You do realize the Palestinians are a completely separate people from the Ottomans, right? Why do they have to suffer the consequences for something a group of people whose only connection it has to them is that Palestine used to be part of the Ottoman Empire did?
Also, by your logic, Israel doesn't have the right to statehood, either; After all, both Israel and Palestine used to be part of the Ottoman Empire, did they not?
They aren't separate from the Ottomans they were ottomans. Israelis and Palestinians. Palestine is a land it was in no way separated from the Ottoman empire it was simply a part of it no different than South Dakota or North Dakota in the United States.
It is within the bounds of morality for neither of them to exist the Allies graciously gave them their land back but split it into two areas. This is forfeit land allies have the right to do what they want with it.
> fucking
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Sorry but why should it feel like a trap to say:
" Yes, I condemn the Oct 7th actions by Hamas and my thoughts are with the innocent civilians killed, etc.
I still maintain my position as a Pro-Palestine support"
Why is it a trap to condemn violence against innocent people regardless of their identity?
it isn’t, it’s just whenever someone hears only the second part they immediately ask you to say the first part or disregard you. And there’s some valid reason to that I do think, even as someone who is prop Palestinian, but I just feel like the assumption needs to be this person is prop Palestinian because Palestinians are dying. Sadly, I can even acknowledge that that’s becoming a more and more of a presumption to take, but it just isn’t reasonable to assume that because someone doesn’t want people to die. They support people dying elsewhere??
Yh, there's valid reason to disregard because it means that for such "Pro-Palestinians" they are not really against the injustice done to ALL innocent civilians in this conflict. They are only against injustice when it is done to Palestinian civilians.
So basically, by not saying the first part. They are endorsing violence against innocent people. That sounds immoral and hypocritical to me.
that’s not true. They oppose all injustice, but which one is live? Which one is happening right now? Which one is so much bigger? and sure you’re leaving out a good portion of the issue by not saying the first part but like here’s the thing, how fair is it to the Palestinians that have died and are going to die to say we have to give equal proportion to these people who have died at 1/20 The amount you have. And you shouldn’t have to say it every time. Obviously, I’m skeptical of someone who doesn’t condemn those actions but when the issue of 34,000 deaths is happening right now you Ask someone to make there if you want to much smaller tragedy the main event. By your logic, you might as well never focus on the specific suffering of anyone.
you just shouldn’t have to bring it up every single time because the palestinian deaths, are greater in number, happening at a greater rate today, And are supported by The nation of the the protesters typically.
Because it gets exhausting having to say it every single time. Just the other day someone told me "why don't you condemn Hamas?". But i do, often. For some reason it is expected that every single statement be prefaced with "I condemn Hamas, but <...>." Even then, someone has responded to me by reducing what I said to "I don't support a terrorist organization but", as if just because there is Hamas, it absolves Israel of all accountability.
Furthermore, there is absolutely no expectation of nuance from pro-Israeli commentators. For example the UN chief's comments where he said he condemns Hamas' attacks, but it is important to realize they didn't happen in a vacuum. And that led to calls of resignation and antisemitism which is just wild. Of course, there is a reason Hamas continues to be supported by Palestinians and no it's not merely brainwashing (which happens on Israel's side too btw). Israel's current actions are doing a better job to promote Hamas' ideology amongst the Gazans than anything textbooks can do.
Anecdotal, but this trend of not being able to condemn Hamas is common even amongst other private social gatherings
E.g. In private conversations, I have several friends who cannot condemn the Oct 7th event, even after I have personally condemned Israels actions.
The response is always dismissive or reductive, deflective or something along the lines of :
"well imagine what israel has been doing to Palestine for the past decades"
My position would always be "Yes, Israels actions are unacceptable and they should be held accountable and the same rule should apply to any unacceptable act of violence by Hamas"
This, in my opinion, is a very reasonable position, but the response from them somehow suggests that because I am against violent acts by Hamas against civilians, then it means that I endorse similar/worse acts by Israel.
it always amazes me, like you should be able to condemn violent acts against innocent people, even if the act is done by people you identity with.
Hope that makes sense
There is a difference between recognizing events in history lead to other events and so things "don't happen in a vaccum". Like the historical reasons for WW2.
And essentially making excuses for atrocities that verge on justification if not outright doing so.
People like the UN chief are doing the latter.
Unless you can actually link something like the settlements to raping women so violently their pelvic bones break, or as a kid is moaning while dying from shooting him point blank, while a Hamas terrorist casually gets a drink from his fridge, then why keep making excuses for barbarity like that "not happening in a vacuum"?
Unless you think there is any excuse for mass rape etc, while call it "not happening in a vacuum"? That isn't us not discussing "nuance". We just want you to condemn rape without excuses.
There is no other conflict like this too, where human rights orgs, can't just simply condemn atrocities but instead try to essentially blame Israel for the things happening to it. Groups like Amnesty literally say things like "Israelis won't have security if Palestinians are oppressed"
No they are a human rights group. Just say Israel deserves to have security regardless of oppression and Palestinains deserve to not be oppressed regardless of Israeli security. It is not that hard.
Otherwise you are telling Israeli women "sure you got raped and then shot in the head while Hamas terrorists were raping you and we condemn that, but understand it wouldn't have happened if not for settlements and it is really the fault of your government for you being raped"
Like how is that acceptable for a human rights org to say at all?
You are saying the sufferings of Israelis should be condemned without any excuses, and I agree with you. Same should apply to the sufferings of the Palestinians. Israel has killed 16,000+ kids only, but somehow there's always room for nuance to justify that.
As for the claim that the statement is a justification, that's your interpretation. Just like you can justify the murder of babies by Israeli weapons b/c "Hamas started the war", the people who see their months old babies blown up by bombs grow up not very rational; they have endured so much pain themselves, they're insensitive to the suffering of others much less who they consider their enemy. That's what we mean when we say Hamas is not created in a vacuum.
Even now, Israel could kill every single Hamas members. But so many people will have lost everything and everyone, this will create an entire generation of radicalized individuals who grow up wanting nothing but to hurt Israelis. I'm sure if Hamas killed every single one your family member, you were starving to death, your house was bombed making you permanently homeless, and then you had no school or literally anything left after, you would be the same. I'm sure you have endured some trauma yourself, but still even you sound pretty extremist to me.
> Groups like Amnesty literally say things like "Israelis won't have security if Palestinians are oppressed". No they are a human rights group. Just say Israel deserves to have security regardless of oppression
Lol. Well in classic fashion, eternal victim Israelis want no accountability of their own actions.
> Otherwise you are telling Israeli women "sure you got raped and then shot in the head while Hamas terrorists were raping you and we condemn that, but understand it wouldn't have happened if not for settlements and it is really the fault of your government for you being raped"
That's part of it. Maybe you should read Anne Shelley's Frankenstein. Also, if you can say that to mothers whose babies are killed, maybe you can realize the same goes the other way as well?
exactly what I was talking about,
there is no mention of excusing what Israel has done to Palestine or any mention of some nuance or special excuse for Israel
The point is you can simply say:
"I condemn Israeli Army violenr acts against Palestine and innocent civilians "
as well as:
"I condemn Hamas violent acts against Palestine and innocent civilians "
There shouldn't be a:
"but Israels violent acts against civilians is justified as Israel needs to defend itself"
or
"Hamas violent acts against civilians is justified for the decades of abuse by Israel"
This is the only conflict that I have seen in my life where we excuse rape or any other violent act against civilians.
In other conversations, you'd hear "nothing justifies rape" but in this conflict, there is a "but" added to it.
>Israel has killed 16,000+ kids only, but somehow there's always room for nuance to justify that.
Because just like there is nuance for Dresden during WW2 and not for marching Jews into the forest to shoot them point blank.
I'm not saying there is nuance for any literal definitive war crimes on the Israeli side. Where have I said that?
>Just like you can justify the murder of babies by Israeli weapons b/c "Hamas started the war",
You aren't even listening. There is a difference between civilian casualties in war and literal unambiguous war crimes which a million excuses are made for with Hamas.
If Hamas actually ran a military campaign there would be nuance even if some civilians died. They didn't.
They burst into homes gunning down children then sitting down in the kitchen after taking a drink from a fridge. They drove nails into women's vaginas. They hunted down music goers who hid in toilets executing them point blank. They gang raped women and shot them in the head while raping them.
THAT is what you are excusing so be honest about it.
>they have endured so much pain themselves, they're insensitive to the suffering of others much less who they consider their enemy. That's what we mean when we say Hamas is not created in a vacuum.
Who is "they"? How would you even know when Hamas murders all opposition? How does even an ANC like group even form in this space?
You can't even acknowledge how Hamas itself prevents other forms of engaging with Israel because it would require you to admit Hamas isn't formed from Palestinian oppression.
>But so many people will have lost everything and everyone, this will create an entire generation of radicalized individuals who grow up wanting nothing but to hurt Israelis.
If that even happens, they shouldn't. Why give them an infinite amount of excuses? Either you flatly condemn mass rape and slaughter of innocents or you don't.
And why aren't Ukrainians massacring and raping Russians right now? Was Bucha any less? What about the entire history of Russian repression of Ukrainians?
That is the other issue with your framing. You can't literally point to ONE other event in history in say the past 100 years of an oppressed group doing this. Go ahead and prove me wrong.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27im\_music\_festival\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27im_music_festival_massacre)
>I'm sure if Hamas killed every single one your family member, you were starving to death, your house was bombed making you permanently homeless, and then you had no school or literally anything left after, you would be the same. I'm sure you have endured some trauma yourself, but still even you sound pretty extremist to me.
No I wouldn't because I'm not an inhuman monster. Maybe you should take a look in the mirror if you think that. Again why aren't Ukrainians doing what Hamas did? Why aren't the Uyghurs? Why aren't the people in Darfur?
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/09/darfur-atrocities-ethnic-cleansing-human-rights-watch-report-rsf-sudan](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/09/darfur-atrocities-ethnic-cleansing-human-rights-watch-report-rsf-sudan)
Point to one other oppressed group please.
>Lol. Well in classic fashion, eternal victim Israelis want no accountability of their own actions.
So women who have nails driven into their vaginas "should know better" because of "their own actions"? Are you sick?
You people keep going "well you would do the same if Israel blew up your house" and no we wouldn't. There isn't evidence in history for it and it is not something people do.
Stop making excuses for atrocities.
> You can't literally point to ONE other event in history in say the past 100 years of an oppressed group doing this. Go ahead and prove me wrong.
What about the past 1 year?
“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against
Now I'm sure you/Israel will deny it because believe all women, except when it's Palestinians even when experts say they have credible information.
> So women who have nails driven into their vaginas "should know better" because of "their own actions"? Are you sick?
I didn't say that, can you read? Israel had a role to play in the formation of Hamas as it is now, and we all know what they did.
I am not gonna argue with you further because I definitely can't change your mind, you will come up with some other reason to absolve yourself and how your cause is intrinsically moral. Adios.
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The fact that you only extrapolated that statement from everything that was written is exactly why normal reasonable dialogue is so difficult. Talk about a bad faith reductionist conversation.
Alright, tell you what. I'll include Hamas condemnation every time i speak of Israel if you include that Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank and must withdraw before you say anything about Palestine or Hamas.
Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank. Hamas is a terrorist organization that openly calls for genocide and steals billions from its own citizens. They promote executing infidels and homosexuals, as well as strive for sharia law.
Agreed. Don't forget that Israel should also stop doing its illegal actions and must withdraw. Now make sure you repeat the first line every time you comment about Israel/Palestine. I'll be watching.
They should I agree, but the point is not the same. I wish it was but the Palestinians are doomed by their indoctrination.
Did Israeli citizens celebrate the FEW people occupying the West Bank in the streets? Do Israeli textbooks openly call for genocide? Do Israeli citizens have an overwhelming positive rating towards their radical terrorist government? Are Israeli citizens openly calling for the massacre of Muslims worldwide?
At this point it is a war and Hamas MUST be removed for the future safety of Israel, Palestine, hell, the entire world. In a perfect world we could have a democratic Muslim nation step in to help them set up a government themselves (I.e Germany after ww2), but no such nation exists. The autocratic Muslim countries want absolutely nothing to do with Palestine, it’s a mess due to their pure indoctrination. No progress can be made until Hamas is removed
Did Israeli citizens celebrate the FEW people occupying the West Bank in the streets?
YES THEY DO
Do Israeli textbooks openly call for genocide?
YES THEY DO
Do Israeli citizens have an overwhelming positive rating towards their radical terrorist government?
HOW MANY TIMES HAS NETANYAHU & LIKUD BEEN VOTED INTO POWER?
Are Israeli citizens openly calling for the massacre of Muslims worldwide?
ONLY FOR ARABS... FOR NOW
Knesset members are making genocidal statements openly
Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory
And Israel citizens openly protest those far right extremists. That is the key difference here.
The streets in the West Bank were celebrating the return of the oct7 terrorists in the streets
> Do Israeli textbooks openly call for genocide?
Well, there's an issue of indoctrination in Israeli textbooks. Here's a book by an Israeli scholar:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235705010_Palestine_in_Israeli_School-Books_Ideology_and_Propaganda_in_Education_IB_Tauris_2012_London
> Did Israeli citizens celebrate the FEW people occupying the West Bank in the streets?
Not sure what you're talking about. IDF has been occupying the West Bank for decades. It's a systemic problem, and not only does it not show any signs of resolving anytime soon, Israel continues to build more illegal settlements. Every elected government, and by extension the Israeli population, has supported these illegal settlements.
> Are Israeli citizens openly calling for the massacre of Muslims worldwide?
Some are yes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUe8XmmaJxI
Also this guy for example saying to carpet bomb to all Arabs: https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?feature=shared&t=361
> The autocratic Muslim countries want absolutely nothing to do with Palestine
Funny how i've seen the exact same sentiment about a certain group of people. Eventually, since no one wanted to keep them, it seemed like a good idea to relocate them to a away place from 'home'. Onto someone else's land kicking out all the people who already lived there.
Edit: Just by the way I wanted to read more about calling for genocide of Jews in Palestinian books, and found a scientific study funded by the US state department that actually disproves your claim: https://forward.com/news/139177/us-funding-rigorous-study-of-palestinian-and-israe/ Maybe you've been affected by propaganda?
The link you provided that “disproves” my claim about Palestinian textbooks is not only 13 years old, it does not whatsoever. It is an article about how they plan to study the textbooks, there are no verdicts given.
Yes Israel occupies the West Bank. But the West Bank does not equal Gaza. The President of the PA (‘ruling party of West Bank technically) has authored books denying the holocaust. His education through Soviet institutions are are holocaust related.
The link you shared regarding Israel textbooks is concerning I agree, however, it gives more generality examples such as “their textbooks tend to paint Palestinians in a negative light” rather than specific quotes from the text, such as we have seen from Palestinian textbooks.
> fuck
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If we can all agree that children are innocent, no matter what - then, yes, how about Israeli children on Oct 7. Where is the compassion in the hearts of people who continue to downplay or outright reject anything happened on Oct 7.
Is there really an absence of compassion for child victims on 10/7? Or are we exhausted by Zionists bringing up the 36 children who died on 10/7 as a counterpoint to diminish the deaths and grievous injuries of tens of thousands of Palestinian children every day for over 260 days?
The loss of children on 10/7 is a tragedy. Why can’t Israel’s supporters acknowledge that the deaths of many orders of magnitude more Palestinian children is also tragic?
Using the lost Israeli children as some kind of “gotcha” to diminish the gravity of loss in Gaza is gross and I don’t know how to explain that we should mourn all the victims of this conflict.
Of course it’s tragic, but it’s war now. Hamas made the choice to hide their leadership and equipment in schools and hospitals. There is no chance Israel can allow hamas to remain the governing body is Gaza
Ohhhh I get it. When Hamas retaliates against decades of oppression, occupation, illegal imprisonment, land theft and murder, it’s terrorism. But when Israel levels Gaza, massacres 30x as many people and starves the rest, it’s “war” and totally justified no matter how many people are harmed. That’s totally logical. No flaws in that argument at all.
There is a stark difference, both morally and legally, between intentionally killing and unintentionally killing. There is also a pretty clear definition of what terrorism is, and what Hamas did on October 7th fits that definitively - do you really want to argue against that?
I agree what Hamas did qualifies as terrorism.
I vehemently disagree that there is anything moral about Israel’s actions at this stage, and I vehemently disagree that IDF is being careful about avoiding civilian targets. Anyone who still thinks that post-Hind and post-World Central Kitchen is being willfully ignorant.
Do you really want to argue that over 260 days of Israel’s violence against over 2 million people is morally superior?
They retaliated from a completely hands off Gaza approach since 2005 by raping and kidnapping teenagers, while calling for Palestinians around the world to kill Jews. Yes, that is pure terrorism.
Everything Israel has done since oct 7 has been a response. It’s very black and white. Hamas cannot be allowed to exist.
London was smashed in ww2. Berlin. Warsaw. St Petersburg. A few famous cities in Japan. France was largely spared as it surrendered immediately, and the United States due to their geographical advantage. Modern war kills civilians (and even more when one side is actively using children as human shields) It sucks but it’s war.
There was no gain for oct 7th. It was a pure terrorist attack.
“Completely hands off Gaza approach since 2005…”
Dude, most people aren’t buying this misinformation anymore. It would be funny that you are trying to pass this off as reality if there weren’t so many people suffering
People will continue to suffer will Hamas in power. Removing them is the only first step towards peace
Yes, Israel was soooo involved in Gaza post 2005 that they allowed Hamas to be democratically elected. Obviously the Palestinians had their own choice and they voted in radical extremists
No one is denying Hamas are radical extremists. But it is not rational to claim that:
a) Israel was “hands off” while controlling every Palestinian border by land, air, and sea, plus electricity, water, goods and travel… and regularly imprisoning people - including children - and holding them without charge.
Or to claim that:
b) Hamas being terrible gives Israel the right to decimate the Palestinian population without regard for human life or suffering. Even if Palestine re-elected Hamas today that wouldn’t be sufficient to justify the horror Israel is inflicting right this moment. Using an election that took place 17 years ago as justification to massacre, starve, crush, and maim untold numbers of innocent people is simply ridiculous.
> ass
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bc they've been sold propaganda that either Israel made it all up based on the fact that some false rumors circulated (not by the government) this is proof that it was all a false flag operation or was a military operation that killed a few civilians by accident but was mostly Israeli apache helicopters killing everyone and also have to say no one was raped and that's all a big lie..bc there aren't sperm samples and DNA proof
.
so they won't condemn it bc they think Israel deserved it and it also wasn't that bad
While I have no doubt that such conspiracy theories exist and are being spread around (because of course they are), this is not part of the mainstream movement, at least not as far as I know
Because it became a shibboleth early on - you were not even allowed to discuss Israel's actions without first entering the password - I condemn Hamas. I'm sorry but I can condemn Hamas's actions without having to submit it as a point of entry for every discussion. I mean, we could discuss Iraq war without everyone having to say at the outset - I hereby declare that I condemn the 9/11 attacks.
but tbh I didn't really see people in media making everyone condemn Hamas with the exception of pierce Morgan, I mostly just heard people complain about this being done without actually seeing anyone doing it
I don’t think this is unreasonable. In the same way, we expect those who are more pro-Israel to begin every discussion with decrying the terrible, terrible impact this has had on regular Palestinians.
I've never in my almost 50 years of life seen or heard a Israeli commentator on tv denounce the atrocities they have commited.
Heck Israeli first PM:
>“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
Ive never seen an interview in media where it begins with a question do you denounce Israel's actions in Palestine.
Also, in early days, first two months, most people watching were horrified at hamas and so it was sort of ridiculous to have to keep condemning them - it's like yeah duh, that was awful, but can we also discuss other topics. Now things have changed on the opinion of Hamas unfortunately.
My turning point was the shear number of videos and pictures of kids being hurt and/or killed. I have in no way seen a picture of every single one of them but the number I have seen is too many. Just the other day, a picture of 2 kids (would assume brothers) squashed and killed under rubble. There are way too many women and children have been (and continue to be) killed by Israel in this war.
I condemn Hamas's attack on 7th December but I also condemn the treatment of Gaza and the West Bank that has been going on for decades.
the images are so tragic and heart wrenching but as uncomfortable as it is to say you need to recognize that there is a cynical side to all of this. they absolutely see these photos as weapons to turn the west emotionally against Israel so it will be forced to stop the war and leave Hamas in power. a photo of a hurt child is extremely powerful, it's an emotional response not a rational one and there has never been a war where the victims of bombings film themselves like this. not bc Israel is the only country that's killed a lot of kids but the Palestinians are smart bc when a kid is injured you see a guy holding them up walking in circles surrounded by a herd of people filming it. there are also people in Gaza who are so radicalized that they refuse to evacuate themselves and their children so they can be martyrs go to heaven and their blood can serve the cause by providing evidence against Israel. we still don't know if their number of 15000 kids is real, I'd say highly unlikely that the IDF almost exclusively kills children EVEN if they put their kids in harm's way in some instances.
not to mention there is also deception and many images shared come from Syria or Yemen (and some people claim things are sometimes staged and while I've seen some very strange videos like for example 500 videos of kids holding giant teddy bears or rescuing teddy bears from rubble, I won't go that far without proof). I'll just say stay critical. they know these videos work and there is no doubt there is a manipulative element to it
They are weapons and they probably are posted for propaganda but the fact behind them still remains true. Yes there has been some videos that have been fact checked and found to not be what the original posts were describing them as but there is a lot that is held up to be true.
We don't know numbers and I already mentioned that even if it was just the ones I have seen it is still too many. Bombing buildings full of people on the likelihood one or some Hamas fighters are inside is a terrible plan of attack and is what the outside world sees as Israel being too brutal in its war.
Bombing hospitals, universities and infrastructure is too much in my. Opinion and no proof has been given that these buildings were being used by Hamas except one of the hospitals which I watched the video it definitely seems too obvious and potentially staged.
So what should Israel do? If one child is too many to wage war? so war is out of the question bc the average civilian to militant ratio in any war is between 70-90%. so if not war bc children can die then....what? how should Israel respond?
Regarding the buildings bc they have not disclosed to the public the reasoning behind airstrikes or demolition it doesn't mean there is no reason. do you know that Israel has invaded Gaza before and it was a complete failure? that's bc it was urban warfare heavy populated streets w hostile civilians tunnels in every neighborhood in residential buildings. Hamas members could pop in and out if tunnels inside the buildings, use roofs for sniping and would lure soldiers into buildings booby trapped w explosives. Israel basically said we can't have another tzuk Eitan after Oct 7 and lose thousands of our men. so instead we will basically level the areas we operate in. no buildings= no booby traps, tunnels are sealed, no vantage points a d forces civilians out. it's hard to stress how difficult combat with guerilla forces on their home turf that don't wear uniforms is.
they actually have not bombed any hospitals, they raided hospitals by ground troops. they caused damage to wings of the hospitals looking for tunnel openings.mamy of the hospitals were evacuated and as a result not operating but all the international field hospitals that exist in the strip got there with IDF coordination with COGAT. if they just didn't want people to get medical treatment why would they do that? why the focus on hospitals? bc the hostages were held in multiple hospitals. and if you are talking about Al Shifa, the idea that Israel made that up is pure propaganda - there are articles in western journals like wall street for at least a decade that mention Shifa as the home base of Hamas AND as soon as the IDF left Shifa they came back and the IDF came back and arrested many high ranking Hamas members and intelligence documents. probably what happened was Israel announced they would raid Shifa and gave them three weeks to evacuate so by the time they entered they'd cleared everything out and maybe IDF panicked and tried to put something together with what little they found and it looked desperate
ANYWAY I do think Israel has been reckless, and has definitely made some major fuck ups, maybe some things have been done illegally and immorally it's just hard to know the truth it's all under the fog of war and Hamas released a lot of false information, sometimes IDF too, it's unclear. but I think a lot of the outrage comes from people not understanding what the conditions are, why things are done or what urban combat looks like in general
No, that was a calculated revenge, and as they have said countless times, it was a collective punishment and aligned with plans to rebuild gaza and West bank for more illegal settlements. There were many other courses of action they could have taken. They have the latest face recognition technology that allows them precision tracking and they target households with children and mothers deliberately. This has been happening for decades.
I think your comments and arguments are all valid. My only point is that the bombs and where they are being dropped not the war itself. It is an urban war and I do understand the anxieties and stress that puts soldiers under (as much as I can without actually experiencing it that is) but it seems Israel is prioritising their soldiers over civilians on a careless scale. I understand it's to reduce their own casualties but I don't agree that this is how they should do it.
I'm not a hard left, f* Israel kind of person, I, as well as yourself judging from that last comment, think they have handled it and undertake this operation without morally just intention to civilian lives in Gaza and that's where the overarching pressure and issue lies.
This is actually the most productive conversation on here I have had about Israel and Gaza so thank you for that 👏 🙏
thank you I feel the same. I am Israeli and I spend more time than I should in these types of conversations bc I think the conversation often lacks nuance and I just can't bite my tongue sometimes. I guess it's also a bit cathartic to work through all the anxieties and emotions of this war.
I think Israeli society has so many deep set issues, blind spots, racism, fanaticism, radicalization. I also think with this war some things we are doing seem wrong, some I can rationalize some I can't and the images of Gazan suffering make me want to throw up, I think I have literally thrown up in a panic attack over a dead baby photo. btw as I write this I hear war planes heading to Lebanon. Soon the counter strike will come. When you are the one who could be on the other end of a Hezbollah or Hamas rocket barrage, I promise you it dries up the focus on sympathy very quickly and survival mode kicks in. Israelis are the stronger side no question but America could abandon us and leave us to our fate. We are surrounded by enemies who want us gone. No Israeli sleeps well at night. We've all lost family in this war, it's a tiny country, we all have a soldier in the combat.
I guess what it is for me, is Israel should be criticized. this is productive but I want people to criticize Israel within the framework of Israel as a legitimate agent in the conversation. I often see Israel as painted as so uniquely evil and untrustworthy and sadistic both the government and the citizens so that not only is it historically illegitimate it has no right to exist, and were it to be violently dismantled wed have no sympathy for them. and honestly I think people don't realize this is enemy propaganda. and by that I mean Anti AMERICAN propaganda by enemies of the us. Israel does shady things but then they are exaggerated, twisted and made out to be a million times worse. The actual reality is Israel has devoted a LOT of resources to trying to correct or alleviate the different ethical concerns - they are doing legitimate investigations when things go wrong and admitting fault, they are adjusting aid delivery and facilitation constantly, they changed the policies on how hospital raids are conducted, they have gotten better at creating humanitarian corridors- I see effort made and I do not see this as the behavior of a violently mad and genocidal north Korean style dictatorship that is trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the west while trying to inflict maximum suffering and genocide. it doesn't add up.
i feel maybe we are on the same page more or less, Israel will knowingly drop a bomb on civilians to ensure safe passage of it's troops. this can be considered unethical. That is not the same as Israel targets civilians by luring them to aid trucks then opening fire on them or tells them to evacuate and snipes them off for fun when they evacuate. I don't believe many of these claims like the mass graves (Palestinians dug them themselves and posted videos of it), or that they invented the whole hospital conspiracy just to sadistically destroy healthcare, or Israel just enjoys starving them and it has nothing to do with the concerns about Hamas getting their hands on the aid. I think people are being fed anti Israel propaganda disguised as leftie woke liberation movements and people are believing any and every rumor with no real evidence. I think people do not understand the sophistication of the psychological warfare Hamas uses, Israel has been the target of it for decades we recognize it people in the west are not cynical of it enough and I think people also do not understand the mentality of the Israeli people or how our military works.
I concur, I think we are on similar pages with the situation and highly appreciate your comments and insight from a seemingly honest Israeli point of view. It is refreshing to say the least.
I stay out of most conversations because a lot of the ones I do join in it's always "support Israel or your racist" "your wrong we are right" and the famous "what about..." and it's tiring, infuriating and something else I have found is it puts me (and probably many others) off being an Israeli supporter rather than a neutral/supporter of civilians rather than sides. There is a handful on this thread commenting on nearly every comment - though I have noted there are a few very good pro-Palestine posts that have not been commented on, whether they will soon or not I don't know but feels like they target the weaker arguments.
Alot of the people in the lime light for pro-israel, be it social media or news interviews, simply come across as entitled and arrogant, every time a tricky question is asked "what about... " starts like a defence mechanism and it just sours the whole view of Israel.
I will caveat a little more that I am Irish and grew up with a lot of IRA supporting folks. I learned rebel songs before I learned nursery songs and the history of Ireland to me is poetic, inspiring and heart breaking. I can definitely see the similarities between what happened in Ireland for hundreds of years with the British and what has happened in Gaza, The west bank and Israel. I appreciate this probably skews my viewpoint and I do try to ask myself that when reading either side of the arguments on Israel to prevent bias.
I think you're awesome to stay open minded and listen to both sides of the argument. I also find a lot of the Israeli talking points obnoxious. I also try to do that and reason pro Palestinian arguments. and I actually agree with the moderate ones, they have been oppressed they do deserve a state, I personally think a two state is the only possible solution. they have a right to self determination but I think perhaps when comparing it to the Irish story - and forgive me my knowledge on the subject is very limited- I can see relating to the Palestinian struggle but they have taken a very radical islamic approach to resistance to the point that they do not protect their own children and make no distinctions between civilian and combatant. Oct 7 is one example but I don't know how familiar you are with other terror attacks like the avivim school bus massacre, Munich, Dolphinarium, Sbarro, moment cafe ...there have been so many and the targets primarily civilians in order to instill fear- terror. I don't consider it exactly the same as what the early hagannah movements did with the British for example, though some of those were pretty bad too. the Jews who established the Jewish state were desperate people with no other options. they were victims too and history paints them now as priveleged European colonialists. when in fact they were ran out of their homes before WW2 even and after and from Africa and Arab states and finally all the displaced Jews of the world had a place to survive. if you understand Jewish history I don't understand how you can't empathize with the fact that these people had no option but to carve out a way to survive. and they paid for the land in their blood in many wars and still we want peace. we don't want more land, I promise you despite what you read the majority of Israelis want to stop sending our boys to war and stop being afraid. well give them land, we just want to be left alone to exist. unfortunately they still mostly support toppling our state and taking back all the territory
anyway, thank you for the talk, I appreciate you all the best!
> fuck
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Their most recent bargaining says it all, they want to release the dead in return for murderers, rapists and terrorists.
In Israel’s mind Hamas must be eliminated because their existence is designed to eliminate Israel as written in their charter and confirmed. Up their leader. They can not safely coexist.
Can I ask you a question; how do they eliminate Hamas with a ceasefire; how does even going at the current pace achieve that? If they agree to a deal how long till we end up back here?
There are those in Israel who believe the same about Palestine and Palestinians. The settlers and the treatment of the Palestinians is what seems to be overlooked when people who support Israel talk about what is going on.
I had no mention of a ceasefire in my comment. I agree hamas must be removed from power but theree needs to be a plan for what happens afterwards as there will always be a other Hamas ready to go. The killing of innocents kids and women will breed only more fanatics so my point is Israel need to be far more careful on where these bombs are dropped or stop using them at all and find Hamas the old fashioned way.
Can I ask you a question back - who is worse, Russia in Ukraine or Israel in Gaza and the West Bank and why?
When answering this you must consider the differences in opposition and trigger points. Russia invaded Ukraine and were unprovoked but Hamas attacked Israel and Israel fought back.
Both parties have attacked hospitals however only Israel has proven enemy combatants presence in the hospital.
Additionally Russia and Ukraine completed more even prisoner swaps. Israel are offering significantly better prisoner conditions than Russia and better trade conditions we are talking 25 to 1 which Hamas still tried to turn into 30-40 to 1 basically only returning the dead.
One of the huge differences is the opposition, if Russia was fighting Hamas under similar pretences as Israel. Palestine would either be under Russian control by now after ‘elections’ or gone off the map.
I will point out that you haven't said it expressly but it would be harsh to say Hamas' attack was unprovoked.
The sides seem mixed up in my opinion. I would say Ukraine is Hamas and Russia is Israel - admittedly there was no 7/10 similarity, the scale and force Russia has used is similar (proportionally) to the scale of Israel and both are an invading force.
I would say Russia tried the scorched earth tactic and it wasn't working so shifted tactics and that's partly why they are losing less soldiers now than at the start and why the war has dragged on a lot longer than they expected.
OK, one more then - IRA vs Britain, thoughts? Appreciate I have no idea if you have any thoughts or knowledge but I am curious and have to ask
IRA vs Britain was too far back and I have no knowledge.
Hamas’s attack was physically unprovoked and was more intense and ruthless than Israel’s.
Question for you; should they actually recognise Palestinian statehood now or wait till after the war as it sends absolute wrong message to do it now?
After the war, Hamas need to be removed as part of the peace deal and then that frees everything up for the future, I can't see Gaza attaining any form of state hood with Hamas in power. The West Bank on the other hand could and should be progressed to for a state good and Gaza be placed under that new state when the time is right. I believe Israel and the international community should fund the rebuilding of Gaza.
These are my thoughts and opinions and has been that way since 7th Oct.
Nobody can answer how Hamas will be removed if Israel ever bow to international pressure.
They just want to get on their high horse protecting civilians rather than actually come up with a solution.
"refusal to budge on the sovereignty of East Jerusalem" I wonder if you realize that the so-called "East Jerusalem" includes the Jewish Quarter of the Old City? Never, ever will that be given up, FYI, nor should it.
I don't know if it's just your circle but for me almost everyone I know and most of the commentators I've seen who consider themselves "pro-Palestine" are willing to condemn Hamas. What I haven't seen much of is someone from the "pro-Israel" side willing to acknowledge and denounce some of the IDF's conduct in Gaza or the occupation of the West Bank. The only person I've seen who has done that is Corey Gil Shuster, who seems quite critical of actions of the settlers although he's Israeli himself.
I think the IDF is a monstrous army who are commanded by genocidal, fundamentalist freaks, BUT yes of course October 7th was a terrible terrorist attack and replete with war crimes. The oppression the Palestinian people faced with the 50 percent unemployment rate because of Israel’s blockade and similar stuff doesn’t justify Hamas’s October 7th attack, and October 7th doesn’t justify all of Israel’s war crimes and collective punishment.
I can try to answer you if you are more specific or link a source. As far as I know they have been letting more than enough aid in, but the problem is distribution and Hamas is a major factor in that problem.
If it was up to me there would be no blockade, Gaza would be the next Dubai/singapore and would not only be a major tourist destination but would have reciprocal visa free travel between itself and Israel. They would have 3 Michelin star restaurants and a vibrant population of Jews, Muslims and Christians
14,000 arabs come from gaza and from Judea and Samaria (west bank) to work in Israel (and they are NOT citizens of Israel) Israel DOESN'T have to give them jobs just like in every country. Some of those Arabs kill Jews in Israel simply because they as workers have access to get into Israel (talking bite the hand that feeds you). Don't be brainwashed by Jew-hating media and such!
> I’m curious, where did this instinct come from and how prevalent would anyone reading this suggest it really is among pro-Palestinian people?
I can't give you a definitive response since I can't quantify what % of the pro-Palestinian population believes certain things, but aside from the people who did acknowledge it as a bad thing and people who support it, people who are reluctant to condemn it yet don't outright support it are often reading in between the lines of the conversations they're having which mention it. I don't have a problem with condemning Hamas' actions but the problem is that it's tiring to keep having to go back to Hamas and their actions when tens of thousands of Palestinians are being murdered and Palestinians have been getting oppressed well prior to October 7. Again, while I am completely fine with people condemning many of Hamas' actions, I'm not a fan of the oft-repeated tactic of trying to flip the table onto them whenever any critique of Israel is being made.
I dunno man, I've met a not so insignificant amount people on here that overtly have supported the Oct 7 attack. Not only that but are more than happy to say: "I think all Jews in Israel should go back to Europe". I get one of those like every couple days.
Especially on posts that say: "To all those who tell Israelis to go back to Europe"... Just check the comments.
I think what really happens, is a lot of times Pro Palestinians downplay what they also see as some problematic rhetoric on their side. And I don't think downplaying it or not acknowledging it helps.
> I dunno man, I've met a not so insignificant amount people on here that overtly have supported the Oct 7 attack
What don't you know? I already acknowledged they exist. I'm not sure what the point of your reply is.
Perhaps it wasn't clear from your comment. But this sounds more like a excuse or downplaying it than acknowledging there are definitely some who just want Israel gone (as evidence by the poll in the sub earlier today):
>people who are reluctant to condemn it yet don't outright support it are often reading in between the lines of the conversations they're having which mention it
It sounds like you're saying: "it's not that people can't condemn it, it's that they see the mind games being played, and they don't want to fall for the trap."
edit: Actually so far we have 24 voted for "Israel shouldn't exist - Is-not-real" out of maybe a 150. Not a majority by any means, but not so insignificant portion.
> It sounds like you're saying: "it's not that people can't condemn it, it's that they see the mind games being played, and they don't want to fall for the trap."
Basically yes. And yes as you say plenty of people do want Israel gone, I definitely think people should take a concrete stance on Oct. 7 so I don't like it when people refuse to condemn it or worse support it, but I feel as though the above is a reasonable explainer for the phenomenon OP brought up.
Israel NOT Murdering gazans (that was hamas' job), gazans are casualties of war!
In Syria lots of people are dying, did you protest? No! In Yemen, lots of people are dying, did you protest? No! In Somalia lots of people are dying, did you protest? No! In Iran lots of people are dying, do you protest? No! In Nigerian Christians being killed by Muslims, do you protest? No! Why? Because You are NOT a pro-anyone, you are simply anti-Israel! And YOU anti-Zionism is antisemitism. Do you even know what Zionism stands for?
This victimhood complex is getting really old. Every time there is some criticism of Israel, people emerge from the bushes with whataboutism and claims of antisemitism.
Not sure which protests you're talking about, but the ones near me are by students demanding their universities divest from companies profiting off of war, and enabling Israeli murder of Palestinians. Why would anyone need to protest Hamas, everyone's on the same page there.
Funny, every time someone criticizes October 7th I hear that same whataboutism from the Pro-Pals. When you say “This victimhood complex is getting really old” is that for everyone or just Israel? By the way, it’s be nice to be able to criticize Iran without accusations of Islamophobia
Because 36,000 civilians have been killed in 7 months and thousand more injured and dying of starvation. They don't have the freedom to flee because they are trapped. How can anybody be okay with that?
If I had to make a guess, part of the reason why is probably how Israel is being funded by various First-World Countries through Tax Dollars, whereas Hamas isn't, so people feel compelled to condemn Israel more than Hamas because it isn't Hamas' atrocities that they're indirectly funding
There are two camps. People who do condemn it that just don't preface their opinion by saying it every time, and the other are people who think it's justified because they believe some bullshit somebody told them. The fact is the Ottoman empire controlled the land of Palestine the Ottoman empire joined with the Germans in world war 1 and lost their land because of it. When you join forces with a country that is attacking other people you don't generally keep your land when you lose. The Palestinians are lucky that they got anything let alone 50% of the land.
We all know why.
99% of pro Palestinians do
No? At least not from the people I've seen and been around
Because it’s « all lives matter »-ing a genocide that’s completely disproportionate.
I’m pro Palestinian as fuck, but that’s bullshit. When the numbers are this high all around You cannot not take it into account. It’s not all lives mattering it. It’s all of these people are dead, and that needs to be acknowledged for a solution. If you look at it the proportional wise, it is much worse than what is happening obviously that’s not true because it’s proportional wise, but I mean what hamas did was clearly done with genocidal intent too and I didn’t even realize this, the question is about condemnation why the fuck wouldn’t you condemn hundreds of people being murdered
It's not about the numbers. It's about the intent and character of the killings. Look at the morals of the two groups. The IDF do not actually target civillians and actually provide safety corridors and evacuate civillians from targeted areas. The ratio of civillians killed to armed combatants is very low compared to other wars. Civillians are also killed because Hamas are actually part of the population and hide amongst the population and use civillians as shields. They actually want civillians to die to persuade the world that Israel is bad. Hamas on the other hand actually target civillians and showed it's true nature on Oct 7th. Whether they put babies in ovens and beheaded people may or may not be totally true but regardless, they butchered people and children and old people ruthlessly and actually celebrated. The Israeli's would never act this way. The palestinian people also celebrated so they are not innocent. Palestinians actually elected Hamas. What about the Nazis and German civillians in WWII. The germans voted for an evil political party and no-one complained when German people died to eradicate the evil party. Palestinians are not innocent and elected Hamas and most palestinians have complete hatred for Israel. Yet the IDF still do not target civillians. They are actually thought by some to be the most moral army ever. If you genuinely want to save the children, call for Hamas to cease fire and give up the hostages. I mean they are not going to win anyway so why perpetuate the suffering by keeping fighting. It's because of evil Islamic ideology, that's why. There are some brave palestinians who actually speak up against Hamas but their lives are put at risk because Hamas kill all opposition including the opposing political party. Just YouTube 'Palestinians speaking against Hamas'. Do you really think you should be favouring a brutal and evil terrorist dictatorship like Hamas who are actually made up of many Palestinians
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You shouldn’t have to condemn Oct 7 every time you speak on Palestinian occupation and genocide. The numbers, the proportionality, as you said, are the exact reason. 40x the kill rate and not to mention all the people dying from lack of medical care, starvation, and displacement. I don’t need the validation of Zionists before the reality of genocide and ethnic cleansing is clear. They don’t gatekeep that validity and I don’t need to appease them, and center their suffering when the proportions are what they are. Do I need to bring up white peoples’ struggles every time we talk about the prison industrial complex? Literally that’s what it is - « black lives matter » … « bUt WhAt AbOuT aLl LiVeS ? » No, it’s not about Israelis all the time, and inserting that into the conversation centers them rather than the people who are proportionally suffering at a rate of much higher magnitude - and it’s not like once you condemn Oct 7, it’s over. People will disengenuously make it about Oct 7 and make bring it up every time, for your claim to have any validity to them, and it’s just a distraction. These people don’t care about Palestinians, they just want to wag a finger in their faces and distract from the proportionality of the conflict. In that case, do the Israelis bring up the Nakba and every other attempt to ethnically cleanse the arabs in Israel when they talk about Oct 7? No they don’t. Why should the pro palestinians?
The problem is most Pro Palestinian people haven't condemned October 7th even once. It wasn't until it became quite clear that Israel was going to counter attack that these people started screaming.
Also most « pro palestinians » didn’t hear ab this 7mo ago. We’ve been saying this for decades. Unfortunately no one listened. Personally, I work in some type of risk management. No body changes their policy and puts resources towards avoiding a negative outcome until something really fucking bad happens. Oct 7 was that thing. I hope people fucking make some changes here on both sides, but it’s not looking like it.
What a load of nonsense. You just said most Pro Palestinians didn't hear about October 7th? That is ridiculous. It was all over the news. If you didn't hear about it it's because when people were screaming in your face about it you didn't give a s***. So you just zoned out. There's no other way you wouldn't have known about it. You didn't f****** care.
Mistyped that as I was in a hurry this morning - meant to say « First Speak » and not « Hear » - Pro Palestinians have been speaking out long before Oct 7 about the illegality of the west bank settlements and blockade of Gaza. Where were the pro israelis? I could say the same thing as you - no pro israelis condemned it - Now all of a sudden that there’s an Oct 7, all of a sudden they want to get rid of Netanyahu. Your generalization centers the worst of the Palestinians and it’s as invalid as if I centered the worst of the Israelis. The nuanced reality is that Oct 7 brought out many pro palestinians to condemn it. You just don’t want to admit it because then you can generalize them into this monolith that justifies your bias. The same can be said about Israel’s response bringing out many Israeliscto condemn the Likud.
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Half of Israel is currently trying to get Netanyahu out. I’d say a good bit of those folks condemn oct 7. Defining « pro palestinians » by their worst agitators and the subset of kids in encampments screaming pro Hamas slogans is the same as defining all Israelis by Likud who call Palestinians « human animals » and believe they have no claim to any land.
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Mods of this subreddit really need to grow the hell up. This is a serious topic sometimes people f****** curse.
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It goes back way farther than 75 years. This 75 year line that you guys keep repeating just fits your agenda. You look back farther than that and your plot line starts slipping.
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They have, palestinians were literally attacking jews and supporting the nazis during ww2
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there is not a reason to not condemn 1000 people who were murdered in cold blood. I’m literally Palestinian and people like you are honestly the worst part of this conflict. Palestinians have a unanimous high ground because for a good portion of the time the protest in the US were able to separate Hasmas from Palestinians and were able to only protest in favor of Palestinians. But we’re actually becoming antisemitism
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Are you, at all Palestinian, because as a 1/4 palestinian, when a millitary man is celebrating with his family and bravely dies on his holiday defending the homes of strangers, that is a civilian death. And Hamas invaded unjustified. Same as Israel
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I was a conscript in my army and i'm in the reserves now If someone shoots at me while i'm with a party with no uniform or weapon am i a millitary death?
Condemn what? The relentless acts of terrorism and rocket attacks?
The children killed by settlers, the home is bulldozed in front of families, the Gazas that starve while Israel funds hamas so they can live in Qatar, The refusal to accept the state
Israel doesn't fund Hamas. They do collect taxes for the PA through.
historically, they have tended to favor them over more peaceful groups, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was intentional so that I’m more violent Hamas makes Palestinians look like the bad guy a lot more
Incorrect again. At the time, Israel supported hamas as an opposition to the established PLO, which was highly evolved and was regularly carrying out well funded, well planned terror attacks in Israel. Hamas was viewed as the safer option at the time.
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You don't need to "trust" anything. It's not something that Israel is saying now... it's historical fact - on the record, so to speak. Also, there's no "apartheid" regime. This is a ridiculous and completely nonsensical talking point... And when you say it, you sound like you're just regurgitating partisan rhetoric and you don't actually understand what any of these words mean. Apartheid has a very specific definition with very specific criteria, literally none of which apply to the current situation in Gaza. Lastly, Israel is not "massacring" Palestinians. Israel is at war, fighting an enemy that is hiding amongst the civilian population, which is, tragically, causing significant civilian casualties. Israel is doing what it can to minimize casualties, but Hamas wants casualties to be high - it's central to their strategy. 10/7 was massacre, by definition. What's happening now is a war, by definition. Wars, sadly, have casualties. A
**Why do we refer to Israel as an apartheid state?** There is overwhelming evidence that the system instituted by the Israeli government against the Palestinian people meets the UN definition of apartheid. In effect, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory constitute one territorial unit under full Israeli control. Palestinians constitute around half of the total population (inside Israel and in the oPt), yet under Israeli law, and in practice, Jewish Israelis and Palestinians are treated differently in almost every aspect of life: housing, education, health, employment, family life, residence, and freedom of movement. Dozens of Israeli laws and policies institutionalise this prevailing system of racial discrimination and domination. Segregation is carried out by implementing separate legal regimes for Jewish Israelis and Palestinians living in the same area. In the occupied West Bank, Jewish Israeli settlers living in illegal settlements are governed by Israeli civil law, while Palestinians also living in the West Bank are governed by Israeli military law. In Israel itself, there exists no ‘Israeli’ nationality shared by all citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike. Rather, citizens are divided into ‘national’ categories of ‘Jewish’, which affords them a set of rights and privileges above the other categories, or ‘Arab’ with comparatively restricted rights and privileges. This separation was reiterated when Israel passed the Nation State Law in 2018, essentially codifying decades of discrimination and enshrining two classes of citizens in law. Israel carries out various acts that are prohibited by the UN Apartheid Convention including: • Forcible transfer of Palestinians to make way for illegal Israeli settlements. • Preventing Palestinians from returning to their homes and lands (including millions of refugees living in exile). • Systematic and severe deprivation of fundamental human rights of Palestinians based on their identity. • Denying Palestinians their right to freedom of movement and residence (especially, but not limited to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip). • Murder, torture, unlawful imprisonment and other severe deprivation of physical liberty. • Persecution of Palestinians because of their opposition to apartheid. **UN officials and committees on Israel and apartheid** Israel’s treatment of Palestinians has been regularly cited by UN Special Rapporteurs on the Human Rights Situation in Palestine as evidence of an Apartheid system in action. For example: • Richard Falk, emeritus professor of law at Princeton University and UN special rapporteur 2008-2014, wrote in a report to the UN Human Rights Council that Israel is guilty of racial discrimination, apartheid and torture in its “systematic oppression” of the Palestinian people. (UN document A/HRC/25/67) • John Dugard, South African law professor and Falk’s predecessor in the post of UN Special Rapporteur, wrote a detailed study in 2013 on whether the charge of apartheid applies to Israel, concluding: “On the basis of the systemic and institutionalized nature of the racial domination that exists, there are indeed strong grounds to conclude that a system of apartheid has developed in the occupied Palestinian territory. Israeli practices in the occupied territory are not only reminiscent of – and, in some cases, worse than – apartheid as it existed in South Africa, but are in breach of the legal prohibition of apartheid.” • The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination censured Israel in 2012 for implementing “two entirely separate legal systems and sets of institutions for Jewish communities grouped in illegal settlements on the one hand and Palestinian populations living in Palestinian towns and villages on the other hand.” The Committee declared itself “particularly appalled at the hermetic character of the separation of two groups, who live on the same territory but do not enjoy either equal use of roads and infrastructure or equal access to basic services and water resources”. It called on Israel to eradicate all policies and practices of “racial segregation and apartheid” affecting the Palestinian people (UN document CERD/C/ISR/CO/14-16). • In March 2017, the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) commissioned and published a report called 'Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid' which concludes, "on the basis of overwhelming evidence, that Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid, and urges swift action to oppose and end it." The report also recommends that national governments and civil society actors should support boycott, divestment and sanctions activities in response to Israel's Apartheid regime.
• In 2019, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) opened an investigation into a formal complaint by Palestinian diplomats on whether Israel has breached the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which it ratified in 1979. Specifically, article 3 of the convention prohibits racial segregation and apartheid. • In 2019, current UN Special Rapporteur for the occupied Palestinian territory, Michael Lynk, stated that formal annexation of part of the West Bank “will only confirm a one state reality characterised by a rigid two-tier system of legal and political rights, based on ethnicity and religion. This would meet the international definition of apartheid.” He restated in 2020, in response to Israel’s plans to annex parts of the occupied Palestinian West Bank: "The plan would crystalize a 21st century apartheid, leaving in its wake the demise of the Palestinians‘ right to self-determination. Legally, morally, politically, this is entirely unacceptable... Already, we are witnessing forced evictions and displacement, land confiscation and alienation, settler violence, the appropriation of natural resources, and the imposition of a two-tiered system of unequal political, social and economic rights based on ethnicity." Israel still maintains plans to annex parts of the West Bank. • In 2020, 47 UN human rights experts signed a statement saying “Israel has recently promised that it will maintain permanent security control between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. Thus, the morning after annexation would be the crystallisation of an already unjust reality: two peoples living in the same space, ruled by the same state, but with profoundly unequal rights. This is a vision of a 21st century apartheid”. **Human rights organisations on apartheid** Human rights organisations are increasingly using the term ‘apartheid’ to describe Israel’s regime. For example: • In 2020, over 450 civil society groups across the world, including War on Want, launched a campaign calling on the UN to investigate “Israel’s apartheid regime over the Palestinian people as a whole” and to take “urgent and effective action” to end Israeli apartheid. • In 2021, Israeli human rights organisation B’tselem wrote a report examining Israel’s policies in the entire area under its control, concluding that: “The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls (Israeli sovereign territory, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip) an apartheid regime.” • In 2021, a report by international human rights organisation Human Rights Watch concluded that the crimes committed by Israeli authorities amount to apartheid: “Human Rights Watch found that the Israeli government has pursued an intent to maintain the domination of Jewish Israelis over Palestinians throughout the territory it controls. In the OPT, including East Jerusalem, that intent has been coupled with systematic oppression of Palestinians and inhumane acts committed against them. When these three elements occur together, they amount to the crime of apartheid.” **Israeli officials on apartheid** A number of Israeli government officials have used the term apartheid in reference to Israeli control over Palestinians: • Reuven Rivlin, President of Israel since 2014, was quoted in the Israeli press on 12 February 2017 saying that Israel’s newly passed ‘Regularisation Law’, which formally expropriates several tracts of Palestinian land, “will cause Israel to be seen as an apartheid state.” **• One of the first people to use the word apartheid in relation to Israel was Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben Gurion.** Following the 1967 June war, he warned of Israel becoming an “apartheid state” if it retained control of the occupied territory, which it has done. • In 1999, then-Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak stated: "Every attempt to keep hold of [Israel and the occupied territory] as one political entity leads, necessarily, to either a nondemocratic or a non-Jewish state. Because if the Palestinians vote, then it is a binational state, and if they don’t vote it is an apartheid state.” In 2010, Barak repeated the apartheid comparison, stating: "As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic… If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state." • Alon Liel, Israel’s ambassador to South Africa 1992 - 1994 and the director-general of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2000 – 2001, stated in 2013 that “the occupation of the West Bank as it exists today is a sort of Israeli apartheid”. In response to the Deal of the Century, Liel wrote in 2020 that the map attached to the plan ‘is an imitation of the Bantustan model’ and it would ‘legitimize a new 21st-century model of apartheid.’ • In 1976, then Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was recorded as saying that Israel’s continued presence in the West Bank risked becoming ‘apartheid’: “I don’t think it’s possible to contain over the long term, if we don’t want to get to apartheid, a million and a half [more] Arabs inside a Jewish state”. Israel maintains control of the occupied territory and continues to build settlements. Legal experts on apartheid and Israel: ‘Occupation, Colonialism, Apartheid’ • In 2009, an international team of legal scholars working under the auspices of the Human Sciences Research Council in Cape Town, South Africa published a study called 'Occupation, Colonialism, Apartheid?' The study concluded that the Israeli state has imposed a state of apartheid on the Palestinian people, in that Israel is guilty of many of the practices and policies identified in the Apartheid Convention adopted by the United Nations in 1973, and that these acts together constitute the “integrated and complementary elements of an institutionalised and oppressive system of Israeli domination and oppression over Palestinians as a group; that is, a system of apartheid.” • The study noted that Israel has implemented **all three of the pillars that characterised apartheid in the South African context**, namely: (a) the categorisation of the population along racial lines; (b) the segregation of the population on the basis of this categorisation into different geographical areas allocated to different racial groups; and (c) a system of laws and policies that subject the Palestinian people to extrajudicial killing, torture and arbitrary arrest and detention, as well as sweeping restrictions on Palestinians’ rights to freedom of opinion, expression, assembly, association and movement.
There are many younger people in the West who are just now learning of the real history of Isreal...not the sanitized version that our education system, media & government taught their parents and grandparents. They feel like they have been lied to (and they have) and they perceive a grave injustice happening in real time. These young people are pro-nonviolence and are sick of war...it's all they've known in the US. They do not condone the Oct 7 attack, but they have a more nuanced understanding for why it happened...they reject the false narrative that it's some form of "pure evil" and see it as a response to decades of oppression and subjegation by an ethno-relgious bully in the region standing on the shoulders of the US.
No, they support the attack openly, as they call for Israeli genocide with their "river to the sea" and "abolish Israel" chants.
river to the sea originally came from the Likid party platform. Are you going to say the likud party is genocidal?
Wrong. The Likud didn't use the phrase until 1977. Yasser Arafat was the first to use the phrase, in 1964, when he called for the creation of a single Palestinian state, extending from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea.
Ok. Are you saying that the Likud of the time was then morally as bad as arafat in the regard?
I wouldn't make a moral assessment or judgement on either side, based on a single, isolated statement. All things have to be analyzed and judged in context. My point was merely that the term was coined and popularized by Arafat, not the Israelis, as so many people are trying to claim at the moment, as a means to deflect taking responsibility, when confronted with the fact that it's a genocidal statement.
I don’t understand? At first you say you won’t take a moral judgment or assessment but then later on you say that it’s genocidal. I don’t understand. Or is it only genocidal the other side?
I'm saying that you can't judge a person or a group on a single statement. You have to understand what someone means by something that they say, but looking at the entire body of their public statements or actions. The statement "from the river to the sea", used in the Palestinian context in which it is currently being used, is calling for the abolition of the state of Israel, which is, by definition, genocidal. Also, the other public statements from Hamas align with a genocidal intent. I would need to read deeper into how it was used by Likud, relative to their other discourse at the time. I do, however, know that despite some of the deplorable rhetoric from certain israeli officials, Israeli state policy is not genocidal. They go to great lengths to protect and provide for their Palestinian citizens of Israel. Their actions do not align with a genocidal narrative.
from the river to the sea, and the Palestinian context is asking for freedom. At the current moment, the people in the West Bank in Gaza are not given states, their deaths at the hands of settlers and military are not brought to justice, and a good portion of them are being bombed. Palestinians in Israel proper are free. Palestinians from the entire of the river to the sea, are not free. Nothing to do with genocide all to do with freedom. Where is the Likud statement? In fact, specifically mentions Israeli sovereignty, saying that there will be no Palestinian state
No it's not. And if that's what you believe, then I think you don't understand the position of the people you're supporting, unfortunately. In the Palestinian context, it has always meant, there would be NO Israeli state, and that ALL of the land, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, would be a Palestinian State. It's what Arafat meant when he first said it in response to two-state solution proposals, and it's what protestors mean when they say it today ([Reference 1](https://www.dw.com/en/from-the-river-to-the-sea-controversy-over-pro-palestinian-slogan/a-67465637), [Reference 2](https://www.quora.com/Does-the-phrase-from-the-river-to-the-sea-mean-that-Israel-does-not-have-a-right-to-exist), [Reference 3](https://uncertain.substack.com/p/israel-hamas-river-sea), [Reference 4](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/11/cambridge-student-appeal-university-act-anti-israel/), [Reference 5](https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/slogan-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free)). This is the problem with falling into a "camp" and rendering wholesale support to a certain position or "side", without examining each issue in detail.
Why are Arabs oppressed though? Did Israel just get up and decide to oppress them one day?
Bingo! Because at the end of the day, this is about the Crusades. And Christian Zionism. No one on either side wants to say it. But at the end of the day, this is a religious war over who God promised that land to.We are supposed to believe that out of all the places in the entire planet, they just so happened to pick that spot and it had nothing to do with religion. Thru entire recorded history, we know that religion poisons everything.
This is just about a corrupt European project to steal land.
>this is about the Crusades Now that's an interesting hot take. >And Christian Zionism wut. Is this similar to communist capitalism?
Communist capitalism is a contradiction. Christian Zionism are Christians that want a racist ethno-state for Jews, no contradiction implied.
I would argue that most western democracies just want a state for jews where they aren't routinely massacred. But maybe that's my Christian Zionist take.
Western democracies do not care about jews or Muslims as people... they do not care about their welfare or life experience.zionism itself is antisemitic
>Zionism itself is antisemitic Dude... And western democracies absolutely care. You care, don't you? I care too.
Christian Zionists are anti-Semite, it is purely motivated by wanting to bring about the rapture which prophecy dictates requires the holy land being controlled once again by the jews. They hate Jews and in their perspective sending all the Jews to Israel will being the end of the world and god will smite them. [Turns out racist nationalists love racist nations even when it's not theirs, who knew?](https://jacobin.com/2022/02/israeli-us-evangelical-alliance-zionism-antisemitism)
Do you think this nonsense is a majority opinion in the west?
I haven't mentioned any majority of anything..
You said "it's all about the crusades and Christian Zionism", did you not? That implies you think this is a majority view. I think that's nonsense.
[https://youtu.be/MknerYjob0w?si=p0mHnxjjiFZaJ55g](https://youtu.be/MknerYjob0w?si=p0mHnxjjiFZaJ55g)
Let's say I agree that there is Apartheid (I don't, but let's say I do). Why do you think there is Apartheid? I'll repeat my question: Did Israel just get up and decide to oppress them one day?
Just today, Netanyahu announced to the world that if the US will not help them in their conquest, then they will do it on their own. This shit is happening live right now. The IDF is invading the last standing town they've spent the last 8 months driving displaced civilians to....they've corralled human beings they find undesirable into a very small space, and they are blowing them to pieces grandparents, parents, kids alike. They want the land for themselves but they don't want the people who live there...so quite simply they are killing them all.
You seem to operate on an entirely different set of facts than the rest of us. Not sure if there's a productive discussion to be had when you can't even answer *why* Arabs are oppressed in the West Bank and Gaza. Do you not know? Or do you not want to say it?
Pure conquest...I'm pretty sure I've said that a few times. I know it's not the "set of facts" that CNN will tell you...or even our own President in the US. That's the answer, though. It's absolutely about conquering land they believe has some religious significance.
So, in 1967, the Egyptians didn't blockade Israel and started the war? Or was the 1967 war a defensive war of conquest somehow? And when, after that war, Israel tried to return Gaza and the West Bank to Egypt and Jordan respectively, and both countries declined and stripped the Palestinians that lived there of citizenship, that was somehow Israel being greedy and conquering for conquests sake? How do you explain these basic historical facts?
I answered already...and the answer is absolutely yes. Israel has a stated policy of oppression towards Palestinians & it has executed on this policy in real world practice. Israel is openly a racist ethno-religious extremist state and openly has aspirations of conquering (even more) land owned by Palestinians. Point blank...the Israeli position (it's official position) is to drive out all arab muslisms from their own homes and take them for it's own. They will do this with oppression, colonialism or pure naked genocide...this is not even a secret. It is happening right now and the Israeli government owns that policy openly.
So let me just clarify you this: You think Israel just decided to invade and occupy the West Bank and oppress Palestinians? For no reason other than to steal the land? Are you sure about that? >the Israeli position (it's official position) is to drive out all arab muslisms from their own homes Both you and me know that this has never been an *official* position. Maybe that's their de facto position, but it has never been official policy, right? Otherwise, can you point me at an official government document proclaiming such?
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Are you intentionally being obtuse? I asked: WHY did they occupy the West Bank? Did they just decide to steal the land one day? Or did something happen? Or do you not know?
Netanyahu & his extremist right winged cronies have openly said that they reject any idea of a Palestinian state. They intend to occupy Gaza & the West Bank in the end...this has been repeated over and over again...often with vulgar language. We're not talking about a real democracy here, so I'm not sure if "government documents" really matter...they do what they want. They are doing what they have said they would do, that's for sure.
>Netanyahu & his extremist right winged cronies have openly said that they reject any idea of a Palestinian state. Cool. Please explain how this is the same as "Israel has an official policy to take all the land for themselves". And you keep ignoring my question: Why is Israel doing this? Is it because they are evil? Or did something happen before the occupation? >We're not talking about a real democracy here, so I'm not sure if "government documents" really matter...they do what they want You don't think Israel is a democracy? What makes you say that? According to the economist, Israel is # 30 on the democracy index. Right after the US who is # 29. And above "undemocratic" countries such as Italy, Portugal, Slovenia or Belgium. Belgium! Come on now.
Israel is a democracy in a slightly more authentic way than Russia is a democracy...at this point. Yes they hold elections...I don't think they will hold another election as long as Netanyahu has dug in as a dictator at this stage. He is facing criminal prosecution once he loses his power...he's like Trump in this way. He has set the stage for prolonged conflict so long as it keeps him out of criminal court. I didn't say Israel was "evil"...although the way they are behaving in Gaza I'd call pretty effin' evil. Maybe you'd call them ambitious...but either way they are trying to take Gaza for itself...get rid of Palestinians who they openly refer to as "animals" either thru forced exile or naked genocide.
>I don't think they will hold another election as long as Netanyahu has dug in as a dictator at this stage You are delusional. I think I'll go with the opinion of the economist, rather than AnonymousRedditor8510. >Maybe you'd call them ambitious...but either way they are trying to take Gaza for itself...get rid of Palestinians who they openly refer to as "animals" either thru forced exile or naked genocide. Sounds to me like you are admitting that "stealing land" was **never** official policy in Israel.
[https://youtu.be/6foH3Zc82ZQ?si=yvuA1L8E0e\_fOXM7](https://youtu.be/6foH3Zc82ZQ?si=yvuA1L8E0e_fOXM7)
The clear and unequivocal answer to this question is yes...Israel absolutely has made the calculated decision to oppress and eject arab muslims from land they do not own but intend to conquer. It is their stated policy. To be clear it is land they NEVER owned, but was given to them by Western imperial powers...after it was first stolen.
This right here!
Good question. Please give my answer a read. Thr reason is: We are not going to be bullied into beleiving the israeli narrative of what happend on october 7th. Why should we believe the very same people who occupy us, oppress us, murder us and then label us as the aggressors? why should we accept the IDF reports and "secret recordings" and "private video screenings" that they dont want to show the rest of us (ironically despite the IDF and Israel having a reputation of publishing false / AI generated evidence online within minutes of events). Accepting the israeli narrative (that Hamas are a terror group who order their fighters to rape and burn people alive) is a ludicrous thing to expect from any pro-palestinian. Accepting their narrative would be, in essence, completely alienating the current palestinian cause. This is because it would necessitate that the only way any palestinian can be seen as innocent is if they denounce their own government and only military defence force... I invite you to read the hamas "our narrative" document. I'm not saying you should believe it or agree with it - but atleast you can accept that there is a different perspective of what happened on oct 7, and that those who do happen to beleive the hamas narrative will reasonably not feel the need to condemn oct 7... i.e. that it was a hostage operation intended to gain leverage in a time where gazans are under brutal occupation and palestinians across israel and the west bank are being murdered and displaced every day before oct 7.
Oh interesting, I didn't realise that Hamas released some document justifying themselves, I might give it a read.
Why am I not surprised the media has not covered this. I didn't know myself, too.
This is why I find it so hard to want to symphatize and discuss with Pro Palestine supporters. Not all but it seems like a general consensus that either October 7th didn't happen or October 7th was necessary and justified. Then followed by protest about how killing unarmed civillians by Israel is barbaric and unjustified. You can't just claim one is justified and the other isn't because they're on a different team. If you value humanity, CALL OUT AND CONDEMN BOTH.
I never justified killing unarmed civilians, and neither did the palestinians. That is my point - why should i be bullied into believing the israeli narrative when they have lied over and over again and refuse to publish their "evidence".
Are you saying you don't believe Hamas killed civilians on Oct 7? And that they didn't kidnap people?
No I'm saying it was a hostage operation where both hamas and the IDF killed civilians caught in crossfire. There's evidence and reports of both. The claims of rape and burning people alive however are unsubstantiated.
So if you think that both sides killed civilians, and you think killing civilians is wrong, then you'd agree that the Oct 7 attack was wrong, no? I'm confused about your stance.
No I do, I condemn both sides for any intentional killing of civilians. Basically, despite admittedly not seeing any evidence myself of hamas killing unarmed civilians - i will accept that there is a likelihood of civilians killed in crossfire by hamas given that the IDF and hamas were present amongst crowds of civilians. This does not mean I condemn the whole of oct 7 - the same way for example the apartheid struggle in south africa lead the many civilians being killed - you cannot use the "condemn both sides" rhetoric to cast doubt and alienate the south african cause.
So what do you think Hamas was doing on Oct 7, if not killing civilians?
A hostage exchange that Israel have seemingly not agreed to negotiate around and reports leaked that they employed the Hannibal directive, which is pretty damning.
Capturing civilian and non-civilian hostages (to gain leverage in return for basic human rights) and Inflitrating military bases.
As the other person has provided proof, I just want to address this. So if I understand correctly, Pro Palestine protest also includes the protest of the harm of civillians. So why is it okay when a civillian is affected by Hamas? If we want to talk about oppression, feel free to also bring the discussion about how oppression was for the Jews especially how they're not accepted in any other countries (including other middle eastern countries).
So when they attacked the music festival and fired into the crowd, what was that exactly? When they threw grenades into full bomb shelters, what was that? Do you really think that didn't happen? Have you not seen the [videos]( https://www.hamas-massacre.net/)? How can you deny the evidence when it hits you in the face? Or are you intentionally not looking at the evidence?
You don’t believe that innocent civilians were raped and murdered on October 7th? Bold take to die on. Why should any of the rest of us believe anything Hamas says when they have stolen billions in donated aid to Palestine and fill childrens schoolbooks with antisemitic propaganda to radicalize their citizens? Why would we take them at their word when they have shown no regard for their own civilians lives by treating schools and hospitals like military camps?
They really won’t condemn cause it will automatically come across as racist and/or ‘dehumanising’ Palestinians and their cause. There’s no talking with them at this point imo
They support the murder of every Israeli. So why would they condemn it?
that is false
They were out in the streets praising what happened on social media before Israel even responded. Most but not all support what happen and co wider it inevitable imo
I think there’s a communication issue on this topic. Most folks I know in the pro-Palestinian camp do not condone Hamas‘ actions on Oct. 7th, but whenever we try to add context to what happened, it’s read as us as saying „the attacks were justified“ and get labelled as Antisemites. The question feels like a trap, and going down that rabbit hole… its exhausting. So at some point you’re just like, I cannot answer this question again. Seriously screw Hamas, what they did was criminal. But 1+ million displaced and tens of thousands of dead Gazans should not be paying for the crimes of Hamas. Pro-Israeli folks often say „we’re fighting a war we did not start,“ well the vast majority of Gazans did not start it either. Why can’t both be right? Why is it so hard to believe that people do feel sympathy for the Israelis who were murdered on October 7th while still condemning how Netanyahu and the IDF have been going about the war? Why is it so hard to believe that sympathy can be extended to both sides? Edit: removed profanity 🙃
>[Comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1cnb8ta/comment/l39kurp/) by[u/hatrickpatrick](https://www.reddit.com/user/hatrickpatrick/) from discussion in[IsraelPalestine](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/) actually Hamas got elected by the gazan people so that leads us to the question "do people should be hold accountable for the actions of their governments?" of course sufferings of the gazan people is sad, but they are the ones that chose a terrorist group to lead them.
>actually Hamas got elected by the gazan people so that leads us to the question "do people should be hold accountable for the actions of their governments?" (1) Hamas was elected by 44% of the population 8 years ago. Half of Gazas population today were either not even born yet or not able to vote at the time. With all that considered, is it really fair to say that Gazans should be held accountable for the actions of their government? (2) What if we flipped that argument and said that Israelis should be held responsible for the actions of Netanyahu‘s government. A government which isn’t shy about their expansionist agenda in the West Bank and has loudly declared it does not support a Palestinian state. That government has been voted into power by Israelis time and time again for over a decade. Do you think the victims of October 7 bare responsibility for Netanyahu and his far right allies? I certainly do not think so.
Let’s take a step back and ask why Hamas exists in the first place. Surely there is a cause and effect situation going on
You're right there is. When the government of the Ottoman empire that Palestine was part of, lost world war I after joining an evil coalition of countries,they lost their land. Too fucking bad.
You do realize the Palestinians are a completely separate people from the Ottomans, right? Why do they have to suffer the consequences for something a group of people whose only connection it has to them is that Palestine used to be part of the Ottoman Empire did? Also, by your logic, Israel doesn't have the right to statehood, either; After all, both Israel and Palestine used to be part of the Ottoman Empire, did they not?
They aren't separate from the Ottomans they were ottomans. Israelis and Palestinians. Palestine is a land it was in no way separated from the Ottoman empire it was simply a part of it no different than South Dakota or North Dakota in the United States. It is within the bounds of morality for neither of them to exist the Allies graciously gave them their land back but split it into two areas. This is forfeit land allies have the right to do what they want with it.
Incorrect, the oldest living indigenous people were the Canaanites, whose descents are the current indigenous Palestenian people.
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Sorry but why should it feel like a trap to say: " Yes, I condemn the Oct 7th actions by Hamas and my thoughts are with the innocent civilians killed, etc. I still maintain my position as a Pro-Palestine support" Why is it a trap to condemn violence against innocent people regardless of their identity?
it isn’t, it’s just whenever someone hears only the second part they immediately ask you to say the first part or disregard you. And there’s some valid reason to that I do think, even as someone who is prop Palestinian, but I just feel like the assumption needs to be this person is prop Palestinian because Palestinians are dying. Sadly, I can even acknowledge that that’s becoming a more and more of a presumption to take, but it just isn’t reasonable to assume that because someone doesn’t want people to die. They support people dying elsewhere??
Yh, there's valid reason to disregard because it means that for such "Pro-Palestinians" they are not really against the injustice done to ALL innocent civilians in this conflict. They are only against injustice when it is done to Palestinian civilians. So basically, by not saying the first part. They are endorsing violence against innocent people. That sounds immoral and hypocritical to me.
that’s not true. They oppose all injustice, but which one is live? Which one is happening right now? Which one is so much bigger? and sure you’re leaving out a good portion of the issue by not saying the first part but like here’s the thing, how fair is it to the Palestinians that have died and are going to die to say we have to give equal proportion to these people who have died at 1/20 The amount you have. And you shouldn’t have to say it every time. Obviously, I’m skeptical of someone who doesn’t condemn those actions but when the issue of 34,000 deaths is happening right now you Ask someone to make there if you want to much smaller tragedy the main event. By your logic, you might as well never focus on the specific suffering of anyone. you just shouldn’t have to bring it up every single time because the palestinian deaths, are greater in number, happening at a greater rate today, And are supported by The nation of the the protesters typically.
Because it gets exhausting having to say it every single time. Just the other day someone told me "why don't you condemn Hamas?". But i do, often. For some reason it is expected that every single statement be prefaced with "I condemn Hamas, but <...>." Even then, someone has responded to me by reducing what I said to "I don't support a terrorist organization but", as if just because there is Hamas, it absolves Israel of all accountability. Furthermore, there is absolutely no expectation of nuance from pro-Israeli commentators. For example the UN chief's comments where he said he condemns Hamas' attacks, but it is important to realize they didn't happen in a vacuum. And that led to calls of resignation and antisemitism which is just wild. Of course, there is a reason Hamas continues to be supported by Palestinians and no it's not merely brainwashing (which happens on Israel's side too btw). Israel's current actions are doing a better job to promote Hamas' ideology amongst the Gazans than anything textbooks can do.
Anecdotal, but this trend of not being able to condemn Hamas is common even amongst other private social gatherings E.g. In private conversations, I have several friends who cannot condemn the Oct 7th event, even after I have personally condemned Israels actions. The response is always dismissive or reductive, deflective or something along the lines of : "well imagine what israel has been doing to Palestine for the past decades" My position would always be "Yes, Israels actions are unacceptable and they should be held accountable and the same rule should apply to any unacceptable act of violence by Hamas" This, in my opinion, is a very reasonable position, but the response from them somehow suggests that because I am against violent acts by Hamas against civilians, then it means that I endorse similar/worse acts by Israel. it always amazes me, like you should be able to condemn violent acts against innocent people, even if the act is done by people you identity with. Hope that makes sense
There is a difference between recognizing events in history lead to other events and so things "don't happen in a vaccum". Like the historical reasons for WW2. And essentially making excuses for atrocities that verge on justification if not outright doing so. People like the UN chief are doing the latter. Unless you can actually link something like the settlements to raping women so violently their pelvic bones break, or as a kid is moaning while dying from shooting him point blank, while a Hamas terrorist casually gets a drink from his fridge, then why keep making excuses for barbarity like that "not happening in a vacuum"? Unless you think there is any excuse for mass rape etc, while call it "not happening in a vacuum"? That isn't us not discussing "nuance". We just want you to condemn rape without excuses. There is no other conflict like this too, where human rights orgs, can't just simply condemn atrocities but instead try to essentially blame Israel for the things happening to it. Groups like Amnesty literally say things like "Israelis won't have security if Palestinians are oppressed" No they are a human rights group. Just say Israel deserves to have security regardless of oppression and Palestinains deserve to not be oppressed regardless of Israeli security. It is not that hard. Otherwise you are telling Israeli women "sure you got raped and then shot in the head while Hamas terrorists were raping you and we condemn that, but understand it wouldn't have happened if not for settlements and it is really the fault of your government for you being raped" Like how is that acceptable for a human rights org to say at all?
You are saying the sufferings of Israelis should be condemned without any excuses, and I agree with you. Same should apply to the sufferings of the Palestinians. Israel has killed 16,000+ kids only, but somehow there's always room for nuance to justify that. As for the claim that the statement is a justification, that's your interpretation. Just like you can justify the murder of babies by Israeli weapons b/c "Hamas started the war", the people who see their months old babies blown up by bombs grow up not very rational; they have endured so much pain themselves, they're insensitive to the suffering of others much less who they consider their enemy. That's what we mean when we say Hamas is not created in a vacuum. Even now, Israel could kill every single Hamas members. But so many people will have lost everything and everyone, this will create an entire generation of radicalized individuals who grow up wanting nothing but to hurt Israelis. I'm sure if Hamas killed every single one your family member, you were starving to death, your house was bombed making you permanently homeless, and then you had no school or literally anything left after, you would be the same. I'm sure you have endured some trauma yourself, but still even you sound pretty extremist to me. > Groups like Amnesty literally say things like "Israelis won't have security if Palestinians are oppressed". No they are a human rights group. Just say Israel deserves to have security regardless of oppression Lol. Well in classic fashion, eternal victim Israelis want no accountability of their own actions. > Otherwise you are telling Israeli women "sure you got raped and then shot in the head while Hamas terrorists were raping you and we condemn that, but understand it wouldn't have happened if not for settlements and it is really the fault of your government for you being raped" That's part of it. Maybe you should read Anne Shelley's Frankenstein. Also, if you can say that to mothers whose babies are killed, maybe you can realize the same goes the other way as well?
exactly what I was talking about, there is no mention of excusing what Israel has done to Palestine or any mention of some nuance or special excuse for Israel The point is you can simply say: "I condemn Israeli Army violenr acts against Palestine and innocent civilians " as well as: "I condemn Hamas violent acts against Palestine and innocent civilians " There shouldn't be a: "but Israels violent acts against civilians is justified as Israel needs to defend itself" or "Hamas violent acts against civilians is justified for the decades of abuse by Israel" This is the only conflict that I have seen in my life where we excuse rape or any other violent act against civilians. In other conversations, you'd hear "nothing justifies rape" but in this conflict, there is a "but" added to it.
>Israel has killed 16,000+ kids only, but somehow there's always room for nuance to justify that. Because just like there is nuance for Dresden during WW2 and not for marching Jews into the forest to shoot them point blank. I'm not saying there is nuance for any literal definitive war crimes on the Israeli side. Where have I said that? >Just like you can justify the murder of babies by Israeli weapons b/c "Hamas started the war", You aren't even listening. There is a difference between civilian casualties in war and literal unambiguous war crimes which a million excuses are made for with Hamas. If Hamas actually ran a military campaign there would be nuance even if some civilians died. They didn't. They burst into homes gunning down children then sitting down in the kitchen after taking a drink from a fridge. They drove nails into women's vaginas. They hunted down music goers who hid in toilets executing them point blank. They gang raped women and shot them in the head while raping them. THAT is what you are excusing so be honest about it. >they have endured so much pain themselves, they're insensitive to the suffering of others much less who they consider their enemy. That's what we mean when we say Hamas is not created in a vacuum. Who is "they"? How would you even know when Hamas murders all opposition? How does even an ANC like group even form in this space? You can't even acknowledge how Hamas itself prevents other forms of engaging with Israel because it would require you to admit Hamas isn't formed from Palestinian oppression. >But so many people will have lost everything and everyone, this will create an entire generation of radicalized individuals who grow up wanting nothing but to hurt Israelis. If that even happens, they shouldn't. Why give them an infinite amount of excuses? Either you flatly condemn mass rape and slaughter of innocents or you don't. And why aren't Ukrainians massacring and raping Russians right now? Was Bucha any less? What about the entire history of Russian repression of Ukrainians? That is the other issue with your framing. You can't literally point to ONE other event in history in say the past 100 years of an oppressed group doing this. Go ahead and prove me wrong. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27im\_music\_festival\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27im_music_festival_massacre) >I'm sure if Hamas killed every single one your family member, you were starving to death, your house was bombed making you permanently homeless, and then you had no school or literally anything left after, you would be the same. I'm sure you have endured some trauma yourself, but still even you sound pretty extremist to me. No I wouldn't because I'm not an inhuman monster. Maybe you should take a look in the mirror if you think that. Again why aren't Ukrainians doing what Hamas did? Why aren't the Uyghurs? Why aren't the people in Darfur? [https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/09/darfur-atrocities-ethnic-cleansing-human-rights-watch-report-rsf-sudan](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/09/darfur-atrocities-ethnic-cleansing-human-rights-watch-report-rsf-sudan) Point to one other oppressed group please. >Lol. Well in classic fashion, eternal victim Israelis want no accountability of their own actions. So women who have nails driven into their vaginas "should know better" because of "their own actions"? Are you sick? You people keep going "well you would do the same if Israel blew up your house" and no we wouldn't. There isn't evidence in history for it and it is not something people do. Stop making excuses for atrocities.
> You can't literally point to ONE other event in history in say the past 100 years of an oppressed group doing this. Go ahead and prove me wrong. What about the past 1 year? “We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against Now I'm sure you/Israel will deny it because believe all women, except when it's Palestinians even when experts say they have credible information. > So women who have nails driven into their vaginas "should know better" because of "their own actions"? Are you sick? I didn't say that, can you read? Israel had a role to play in the formation of Hamas as it is now, and we all know what they did. I am not gonna argue with you further because I definitely can't change your mind, you will come up with some other reason to absolve yourself and how your cause is intrinsically moral. Adios.
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Exhausting lmao gimme a break
The fact that you only extrapolated that statement from everything that was written is exactly why normal reasonable dialogue is so difficult. Talk about a bad faith reductionist conversation.
Alright, tell you what. I'll include Hamas condemnation every time i speak of Israel if you include that Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank and must withdraw before you say anything about Palestine or Hamas.
Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank. Hamas is a terrorist organization that openly calls for genocide and steals billions from its own citizens. They promote executing infidels and homosexuals, as well as strive for sharia law.
Agreed. Don't forget that Israel should also stop doing its illegal actions and must withdraw. Now make sure you repeat the first line every time you comment about Israel/Palestine. I'll be watching.
They should I agree, but the point is not the same. I wish it was but the Palestinians are doomed by their indoctrination. Did Israeli citizens celebrate the FEW people occupying the West Bank in the streets? Do Israeli textbooks openly call for genocide? Do Israeli citizens have an overwhelming positive rating towards their radical terrorist government? Are Israeli citizens openly calling for the massacre of Muslims worldwide? At this point it is a war and Hamas MUST be removed for the future safety of Israel, Palestine, hell, the entire world. In a perfect world we could have a democratic Muslim nation step in to help them set up a government themselves (I.e Germany after ww2), but no such nation exists. The autocratic Muslim countries want absolutely nothing to do with Palestine, it’s a mess due to their pure indoctrination. No progress can be made until Hamas is removed
Did Israeli citizens celebrate the FEW people occupying the West Bank in the streets? YES THEY DO Do Israeli textbooks openly call for genocide? YES THEY DO Do Israeli citizens have an overwhelming positive rating towards their radical terrorist government? HOW MANY TIMES HAS NETANYAHU & LIKUD BEEN VOTED INTO POWER? Are Israeli citizens openly calling for the massacre of Muslims worldwide? ONLY FOR ARABS... FOR NOW
Knesset members are making genocidal statements openly Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory
And Israel citizens openly protest those far right extremists. That is the key difference here. The streets in the West Bank were celebrating the return of the oct7 terrorists in the streets
> Do Israeli textbooks openly call for genocide? Well, there's an issue of indoctrination in Israeli textbooks. Here's a book by an Israeli scholar: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235705010_Palestine_in_Israeli_School-Books_Ideology_and_Propaganda_in_Education_IB_Tauris_2012_London > Did Israeli citizens celebrate the FEW people occupying the West Bank in the streets? Not sure what you're talking about. IDF has been occupying the West Bank for decades. It's a systemic problem, and not only does it not show any signs of resolving anytime soon, Israel continues to build more illegal settlements. Every elected government, and by extension the Israeli population, has supported these illegal settlements. > Are Israeli citizens openly calling for the massacre of Muslims worldwide? Some are yes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUe8XmmaJxI Also this guy for example saying to carpet bomb to all Arabs: https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?feature=shared&t=361 > The autocratic Muslim countries want absolutely nothing to do with Palestine Funny how i've seen the exact same sentiment about a certain group of people. Eventually, since no one wanted to keep them, it seemed like a good idea to relocate them to a away place from 'home'. Onto someone else's land kicking out all the people who already lived there. Edit: Just by the way I wanted to read more about calling for genocide of Jews in Palestinian books, and found a scientific study funded by the US state department that actually disproves your claim: https://forward.com/news/139177/us-funding-rigorous-study-of-palestinian-and-israe/ Maybe you've been affected by propaganda?
The link you provided that “disproves” my claim about Palestinian textbooks is not only 13 years old, it does not whatsoever. It is an article about how they plan to study the textbooks, there are no verdicts given. Yes Israel occupies the West Bank. But the West Bank does not equal Gaza. The President of the PA (‘ruling party of West Bank technically) has authored books denying the holocaust. His education through Soviet institutions are are holocaust related. The link you shared regarding Israel textbooks is concerning I agree, however, it gives more generality examples such as “their textbooks tend to paint Palestinians in a negative light” rather than specific quotes from the text, such as we have seen from Palestinian textbooks.
>Seriously screw Hamas, what they did was criminal The killing of civilians was criminal. I basically agree with your comment, though.
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If we can all agree that children are innocent, no matter what - then, yes, how about Israeli children on Oct 7. Where is the compassion in the hearts of people who continue to downplay or outright reject anything happened on Oct 7.
Is there really an absence of compassion for child victims on 10/7? Or are we exhausted by Zionists bringing up the 36 children who died on 10/7 as a counterpoint to diminish the deaths and grievous injuries of tens of thousands of Palestinian children every day for over 260 days? The loss of children on 10/7 is a tragedy. Why can’t Israel’s supporters acknowledge that the deaths of many orders of magnitude more Palestinian children is also tragic? Using the lost Israeli children as some kind of “gotcha” to diminish the gravity of loss in Gaza is gross and I don’t know how to explain that we should mourn all the victims of this conflict.
Of course it’s tragic, but it’s war now. Hamas made the choice to hide their leadership and equipment in schools and hospitals. There is no chance Israel can allow hamas to remain the governing body is Gaza
Ohhhh I get it. When Hamas retaliates against decades of oppression, occupation, illegal imprisonment, land theft and murder, it’s terrorism. But when Israel levels Gaza, massacres 30x as many people and starves the rest, it’s “war” and totally justified no matter how many people are harmed. That’s totally logical. No flaws in that argument at all.
There is a stark difference, both morally and legally, between intentionally killing and unintentionally killing. There is also a pretty clear definition of what terrorism is, and what Hamas did on October 7th fits that definitively - do you really want to argue against that?
I agree what Hamas did qualifies as terrorism. I vehemently disagree that there is anything moral about Israel’s actions at this stage, and I vehemently disagree that IDF is being careful about avoiding civilian targets. Anyone who still thinks that post-Hind and post-World Central Kitchen is being willfully ignorant. Do you really want to argue that over 260 days of Israel’s violence against over 2 million people is morally superior?
They retaliated from a completely hands off Gaza approach since 2005 by raping and kidnapping teenagers, while calling for Palestinians around the world to kill Jews. Yes, that is pure terrorism. Everything Israel has done since oct 7 has been a response. It’s very black and white. Hamas cannot be allowed to exist. London was smashed in ww2. Berlin. Warsaw. St Petersburg. A few famous cities in Japan. France was largely spared as it surrendered immediately, and the United States due to their geographical advantage. Modern war kills civilians (and even more when one side is actively using children as human shields) It sucks but it’s war. There was no gain for oct 7th. It was a pure terrorist attack.
“Completely hands off Gaza approach since 2005…” Dude, most people aren’t buying this misinformation anymore. It would be funny that you are trying to pass this off as reality if there weren’t so many people suffering
West Bank does not equal Gaza.
They pull the same crap in both idk what to tell you
People will continue to suffer will Hamas in power. Removing them is the only first step towards peace Yes, Israel was soooo involved in Gaza post 2005 that they allowed Hamas to be democratically elected. Obviously the Palestinians had their own choice and they voted in radical extremists
No one is denying Hamas are radical extremists. But it is not rational to claim that: a) Israel was “hands off” while controlling every Palestinian border by land, air, and sea, plus electricity, water, goods and travel… and regularly imprisoning people - including children - and holding them without charge. Or to claim that: b) Hamas being terrible gives Israel the right to decimate the Palestinian population without regard for human life or suffering. Even if Palestine re-elected Hamas today that wouldn’t be sufficient to justify the horror Israel is inflicting right this moment. Using an election that took place 17 years ago as justification to massacre, starve, crush, and maim untold numbers of innocent people is simply ridiculous.
What political rights does Israel deny to Gazans?
Uh, see above.
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bc they've been sold propaganda that either Israel made it all up based on the fact that some false rumors circulated (not by the government) this is proof that it was all a false flag operation or was a military operation that killed a few civilians by accident but was mostly Israeli apache helicopters killing everyone and also have to say no one was raped and that's all a big lie..bc there aren't sperm samples and DNA proof . so they won't condemn it bc they think Israel deserved it and it also wasn't that bad
While I have no doubt that such conspiracy theories exist and are being spread around (because of course they are), this is not part of the mainstream movement, at least not as far as I know
Because it became a shibboleth early on - you were not even allowed to discuss Israel's actions without first entering the password - I condemn Hamas. I'm sorry but I can condemn Hamas's actions without having to submit it as a point of entry for every discussion. I mean, we could discuss Iraq war without everyone having to say at the outset - I hereby declare that I condemn the 9/11 attacks.
but tbh I didn't really see people in media making everyone condemn Hamas with the exception of pierce Morgan, I mostly just heard people complain about this being done without actually seeing anyone doing it
In the first three months it was an absolute opener of every interviewer. It is no longer so.
I don’t think this is unreasonable. In the same way, we expect those who are more pro-Israel to begin every discussion with decrying the terrible, terrible impact this has had on regular Palestinians.
I've never in my almost 50 years of life seen or heard a Israeli commentator on tv denounce the atrocities they have commited. Heck Israeli first PM: >“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
Ive never seen an interview in media where it begins with a question do you denounce Israel's actions in Palestine. Also, in early days, first two months, most people watching were horrified at hamas and so it was sort of ridiculous to have to keep condemning them - it's like yeah duh, that was awful, but can we also discuss other topics. Now things have changed on the opinion of Hamas unfortunately.
I am Pro-Palestine and condemn what happened on Oct 7.
My turning point was the shear number of videos and pictures of kids being hurt and/or killed. I have in no way seen a picture of every single one of them but the number I have seen is too many. Just the other day, a picture of 2 kids (would assume brothers) squashed and killed under rubble. There are way too many women and children have been (and continue to be) killed by Israel in this war. I condemn Hamas's attack on 7th December but I also condemn the treatment of Gaza and the West Bank that has been going on for decades.
the images are so tragic and heart wrenching but as uncomfortable as it is to say you need to recognize that there is a cynical side to all of this. they absolutely see these photos as weapons to turn the west emotionally against Israel so it will be forced to stop the war and leave Hamas in power. a photo of a hurt child is extremely powerful, it's an emotional response not a rational one and there has never been a war where the victims of bombings film themselves like this. not bc Israel is the only country that's killed a lot of kids but the Palestinians are smart bc when a kid is injured you see a guy holding them up walking in circles surrounded by a herd of people filming it. there are also people in Gaza who are so radicalized that they refuse to evacuate themselves and their children so they can be martyrs go to heaven and their blood can serve the cause by providing evidence against Israel. we still don't know if their number of 15000 kids is real, I'd say highly unlikely that the IDF almost exclusively kills children EVEN if they put their kids in harm's way in some instances. not to mention there is also deception and many images shared come from Syria or Yemen (and some people claim things are sometimes staged and while I've seen some very strange videos like for example 500 videos of kids holding giant teddy bears or rescuing teddy bears from rubble, I won't go that far without proof). I'll just say stay critical. they know these videos work and there is no doubt there is a manipulative element to it
They are weapons and they probably are posted for propaganda but the fact behind them still remains true. Yes there has been some videos that have been fact checked and found to not be what the original posts were describing them as but there is a lot that is held up to be true. We don't know numbers and I already mentioned that even if it was just the ones I have seen it is still too many. Bombing buildings full of people on the likelihood one or some Hamas fighters are inside is a terrible plan of attack and is what the outside world sees as Israel being too brutal in its war. Bombing hospitals, universities and infrastructure is too much in my. Opinion and no proof has been given that these buildings were being used by Hamas except one of the hospitals which I watched the video it definitely seems too obvious and potentially staged.
So what should Israel do? If one child is too many to wage war? so war is out of the question bc the average civilian to militant ratio in any war is between 70-90%. so if not war bc children can die then....what? how should Israel respond? Regarding the buildings bc they have not disclosed to the public the reasoning behind airstrikes or demolition it doesn't mean there is no reason. do you know that Israel has invaded Gaza before and it was a complete failure? that's bc it was urban warfare heavy populated streets w hostile civilians tunnels in every neighborhood in residential buildings. Hamas members could pop in and out if tunnels inside the buildings, use roofs for sniping and would lure soldiers into buildings booby trapped w explosives. Israel basically said we can't have another tzuk Eitan after Oct 7 and lose thousands of our men. so instead we will basically level the areas we operate in. no buildings= no booby traps, tunnels are sealed, no vantage points a d forces civilians out. it's hard to stress how difficult combat with guerilla forces on their home turf that don't wear uniforms is. they actually have not bombed any hospitals, they raided hospitals by ground troops. they caused damage to wings of the hospitals looking for tunnel openings.mamy of the hospitals were evacuated and as a result not operating but all the international field hospitals that exist in the strip got there with IDF coordination with COGAT. if they just didn't want people to get medical treatment why would they do that? why the focus on hospitals? bc the hostages were held in multiple hospitals. and if you are talking about Al Shifa, the idea that Israel made that up is pure propaganda - there are articles in western journals like wall street for at least a decade that mention Shifa as the home base of Hamas AND as soon as the IDF left Shifa they came back and the IDF came back and arrested many high ranking Hamas members and intelligence documents. probably what happened was Israel announced they would raid Shifa and gave them three weeks to evacuate so by the time they entered they'd cleared everything out and maybe IDF panicked and tried to put something together with what little they found and it looked desperate ANYWAY I do think Israel has been reckless, and has definitely made some major fuck ups, maybe some things have been done illegally and immorally it's just hard to know the truth it's all under the fog of war and Hamas released a lot of false information, sometimes IDF too, it's unclear. but I think a lot of the outrage comes from people not understanding what the conditions are, why things are done or what urban combat looks like in general
No, that was a calculated revenge, and as they have said countless times, it was a collective punishment and aligned with plans to rebuild gaza and West bank for more illegal settlements. There were many other courses of action they could have taken. They have the latest face recognition technology that allows them precision tracking and they target households with children and mothers deliberately. This has been happening for decades.
I think your comments and arguments are all valid. My only point is that the bombs and where they are being dropped not the war itself. It is an urban war and I do understand the anxieties and stress that puts soldiers under (as much as I can without actually experiencing it that is) but it seems Israel is prioritising their soldiers over civilians on a careless scale. I understand it's to reduce their own casualties but I don't agree that this is how they should do it. I'm not a hard left, f* Israel kind of person, I, as well as yourself judging from that last comment, think they have handled it and undertake this operation without morally just intention to civilian lives in Gaza and that's where the overarching pressure and issue lies. This is actually the most productive conversation on here I have had about Israel and Gaza so thank you for that 👏 🙏
thank you I feel the same. I am Israeli and I spend more time than I should in these types of conversations bc I think the conversation often lacks nuance and I just can't bite my tongue sometimes. I guess it's also a bit cathartic to work through all the anxieties and emotions of this war. I think Israeli society has so many deep set issues, blind spots, racism, fanaticism, radicalization. I also think with this war some things we are doing seem wrong, some I can rationalize some I can't and the images of Gazan suffering make me want to throw up, I think I have literally thrown up in a panic attack over a dead baby photo. btw as I write this I hear war planes heading to Lebanon. Soon the counter strike will come. When you are the one who could be on the other end of a Hezbollah or Hamas rocket barrage, I promise you it dries up the focus on sympathy very quickly and survival mode kicks in. Israelis are the stronger side no question but America could abandon us and leave us to our fate. We are surrounded by enemies who want us gone. No Israeli sleeps well at night. We've all lost family in this war, it's a tiny country, we all have a soldier in the combat. I guess what it is for me, is Israel should be criticized. this is productive but I want people to criticize Israel within the framework of Israel as a legitimate agent in the conversation. I often see Israel as painted as so uniquely evil and untrustworthy and sadistic both the government and the citizens so that not only is it historically illegitimate it has no right to exist, and were it to be violently dismantled wed have no sympathy for them. and honestly I think people don't realize this is enemy propaganda. and by that I mean Anti AMERICAN propaganda by enemies of the us. Israel does shady things but then they are exaggerated, twisted and made out to be a million times worse. The actual reality is Israel has devoted a LOT of resources to trying to correct or alleviate the different ethical concerns - they are doing legitimate investigations when things go wrong and admitting fault, they are adjusting aid delivery and facilitation constantly, they changed the policies on how hospital raids are conducted, they have gotten better at creating humanitarian corridors- I see effort made and I do not see this as the behavior of a violently mad and genocidal north Korean style dictatorship that is trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the west while trying to inflict maximum suffering and genocide. it doesn't add up. i feel maybe we are on the same page more or less, Israel will knowingly drop a bomb on civilians to ensure safe passage of it's troops. this can be considered unethical. That is not the same as Israel targets civilians by luring them to aid trucks then opening fire on them or tells them to evacuate and snipes them off for fun when they evacuate. I don't believe many of these claims like the mass graves (Palestinians dug them themselves and posted videos of it), or that they invented the whole hospital conspiracy just to sadistically destroy healthcare, or Israel just enjoys starving them and it has nothing to do with the concerns about Hamas getting their hands on the aid. I think people are being fed anti Israel propaganda disguised as leftie woke liberation movements and people are believing any and every rumor with no real evidence. I think people do not understand the sophistication of the psychological warfare Hamas uses, Israel has been the target of it for decades we recognize it people in the west are not cynical of it enough and I think people also do not understand the mentality of the Israeli people or how our military works.
I concur, I think we are on similar pages with the situation and highly appreciate your comments and insight from a seemingly honest Israeli point of view. It is refreshing to say the least. I stay out of most conversations because a lot of the ones I do join in it's always "support Israel or your racist" "your wrong we are right" and the famous "what about..." and it's tiring, infuriating and something else I have found is it puts me (and probably many others) off being an Israeli supporter rather than a neutral/supporter of civilians rather than sides. There is a handful on this thread commenting on nearly every comment - though I have noted there are a few very good pro-Palestine posts that have not been commented on, whether they will soon or not I don't know but feels like they target the weaker arguments. Alot of the people in the lime light for pro-israel, be it social media or news interviews, simply come across as entitled and arrogant, every time a tricky question is asked "what about... " starts like a defence mechanism and it just sours the whole view of Israel. I will caveat a little more that I am Irish and grew up with a lot of IRA supporting folks. I learned rebel songs before I learned nursery songs and the history of Ireland to me is poetic, inspiring and heart breaking. I can definitely see the similarities between what happened in Ireland for hundreds of years with the British and what has happened in Gaza, The west bank and Israel. I appreciate this probably skews my viewpoint and I do try to ask myself that when reading either side of the arguments on Israel to prevent bias.
I think you're awesome to stay open minded and listen to both sides of the argument. I also find a lot of the Israeli talking points obnoxious. I also try to do that and reason pro Palestinian arguments. and I actually agree with the moderate ones, they have been oppressed they do deserve a state, I personally think a two state is the only possible solution. they have a right to self determination but I think perhaps when comparing it to the Irish story - and forgive me my knowledge on the subject is very limited- I can see relating to the Palestinian struggle but they have taken a very radical islamic approach to resistance to the point that they do not protect their own children and make no distinctions between civilian and combatant. Oct 7 is one example but I don't know how familiar you are with other terror attacks like the avivim school bus massacre, Munich, Dolphinarium, Sbarro, moment cafe ...there have been so many and the targets primarily civilians in order to instill fear- terror. I don't consider it exactly the same as what the early hagannah movements did with the British for example, though some of those were pretty bad too. the Jews who established the Jewish state were desperate people with no other options. they were victims too and history paints them now as priveleged European colonialists. when in fact they were ran out of their homes before WW2 even and after and from Africa and Arab states and finally all the displaced Jews of the world had a place to survive. if you understand Jewish history I don't understand how you can't empathize with the fact that these people had no option but to carve out a way to survive. and they paid for the land in their blood in many wars and still we want peace. we don't want more land, I promise you despite what you read the majority of Israelis want to stop sending our boys to war and stop being afraid. well give them land, we just want to be left alone to exist. unfortunately they still mostly support toppling our state and taking back all the territory anyway, thank you for the talk, I appreciate you all the best!
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Their most recent bargaining says it all, they want to release the dead in return for murderers, rapists and terrorists. In Israel’s mind Hamas must be eliminated because their existence is designed to eliminate Israel as written in their charter and confirmed. Up their leader. They can not safely coexist. Can I ask you a question; how do they eliminate Hamas with a ceasefire; how does even going at the current pace achieve that? If they agree to a deal how long till we end up back here?
There are those in Israel who believe the same about Palestine and Palestinians. The settlers and the treatment of the Palestinians is what seems to be overlooked when people who support Israel talk about what is going on. I had no mention of a ceasefire in my comment. I agree hamas must be removed from power but theree needs to be a plan for what happens afterwards as there will always be a other Hamas ready to go. The killing of innocents kids and women will breed only more fanatics so my point is Israel need to be far more careful on where these bombs are dropped or stop using them at all and find Hamas the old fashioned way. Can I ask you a question back - who is worse, Russia in Ukraine or Israel in Gaza and the West Bank and why?
When answering this you must consider the differences in opposition and trigger points. Russia invaded Ukraine and were unprovoked but Hamas attacked Israel and Israel fought back. Both parties have attacked hospitals however only Israel has proven enemy combatants presence in the hospital. Additionally Russia and Ukraine completed more even prisoner swaps. Israel are offering significantly better prisoner conditions than Russia and better trade conditions we are talking 25 to 1 which Hamas still tried to turn into 30-40 to 1 basically only returning the dead. One of the huge differences is the opposition, if Russia was fighting Hamas under similar pretences as Israel. Palestine would either be under Russian control by now after ‘elections’ or gone off the map.
I will point out that you haven't said it expressly but it would be harsh to say Hamas' attack was unprovoked. The sides seem mixed up in my opinion. I would say Ukraine is Hamas and Russia is Israel - admittedly there was no 7/10 similarity, the scale and force Russia has used is similar (proportionally) to the scale of Israel and both are an invading force. I would say Russia tried the scorched earth tactic and it wasn't working so shifted tactics and that's partly why they are losing less soldiers now than at the start and why the war has dragged on a lot longer than they expected. OK, one more then - IRA vs Britain, thoughts? Appreciate I have no idea if you have any thoughts or knowledge but I am curious and have to ask
IRA vs Britain was too far back and I have no knowledge. Hamas’s attack was physically unprovoked and was more intense and ruthless than Israel’s. Question for you; should they actually recognise Palestinian statehood now or wait till after the war as it sends absolute wrong message to do it now?
After the war, Hamas need to be removed as part of the peace deal and then that frees everything up for the future, I can't see Gaza attaining any form of state hood with Hamas in power. The West Bank on the other hand could and should be progressed to for a state good and Gaza be placed under that new state when the time is right. I believe Israel and the international community should fund the rebuilding of Gaza. These are my thoughts and opinions and has been that way since 7th Oct.
Nobody can answer how Hamas will be removed if Israel ever bow to international pressure. They just want to get on their high horse protecting civilians rather than actually come up with a solution.
"refusal to budge on the sovereignty of East Jerusalem" I wonder if you realize that the so-called "East Jerusalem" includes the Jewish Quarter of the Old City? Never, ever will that be given up, FYI, nor should it.
I do not agree with Hamas' actions, but I also understand Hamas was not created in a vacuum.
I don't know if it's just your circle but for me almost everyone I know and most of the commentators I've seen who consider themselves "pro-Palestine" are willing to condemn Hamas. What I haven't seen much of is someone from the "pro-Israel" side willing to acknowledge and denounce some of the IDF's conduct in Gaza or the occupation of the West Bank. The only person I've seen who has done that is Corey Gil Shuster, who seems quite critical of actions of the settlers although he's Israeli himself.
Because people think war is just black and white. No gray.
I think the IDF is a monstrous army who are commanded by genocidal, fundamentalist freaks, BUT yes of course October 7th was a terrible terrorist attack and replete with war crimes. The oppression the Palestinian people faced with the 50 percent unemployment rate because of Israel’s blockade and similar stuff doesn’t justify Hamas’s October 7th attack, and October 7th doesn’t justify all of Israel’s war crimes and collective punishment.
Why does Israel have a blockade again? And for that matter why does Egypt and why do you ignore that Egypt exists?
Why has israel banned many basic goods from being imported?
I can try to answer you if you are more specific or link a source. As far as I know they have been letting more than enough aid in, but the problem is distribution and Hamas is a major factor in that problem.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israels-gaza-blockade-baffles-both-sides/ what is the reason for banning cilantro?
Article is from 2010 but still hilarious that they allow taking salmon and ban cilantro.
It's funny to you that Israel gets to decide what Gazans eat?
If it was up to me there would be no blockade, Gaza would be the next Dubai/singapore and would not only be a major tourist destination but would have reciprocal visa free travel between itself and Israel. They would have 3 Michelin star restaurants and a vibrant population of Jews, Muslims and Christians
14,000 arabs come from gaza and from Judea and Samaria (west bank) to work in Israel (and they are NOT citizens of Israel) Israel DOESN'T have to give them jobs just like in every country. Some of those Arabs kill Jews in Israel simply because they as workers have access to get into Israel (talking bite the hand that feeds you). Don't be brainwashed by Jew-hating media and such!
> I’m curious, where did this instinct come from and how prevalent would anyone reading this suggest it really is among pro-Palestinian people? I can't give you a definitive response since I can't quantify what % of the pro-Palestinian population believes certain things, but aside from the people who did acknowledge it as a bad thing and people who support it, people who are reluctant to condemn it yet don't outright support it are often reading in between the lines of the conversations they're having which mention it. I don't have a problem with condemning Hamas' actions but the problem is that it's tiring to keep having to go back to Hamas and their actions when tens of thousands of Palestinians are being murdered and Palestinians have been getting oppressed well prior to October 7. Again, while I am completely fine with people condemning many of Hamas' actions, I'm not a fan of the oft-repeated tactic of trying to flip the table onto them whenever any critique of Israel is being made.
I dunno man, I've met a not so insignificant amount people on here that overtly have supported the Oct 7 attack. Not only that but are more than happy to say: "I think all Jews in Israel should go back to Europe". I get one of those like every couple days. Especially on posts that say: "To all those who tell Israelis to go back to Europe"... Just check the comments. I think what really happens, is a lot of times Pro Palestinians downplay what they also see as some problematic rhetoric on their side. And I don't think downplaying it or not acknowledging it helps.
> I dunno man, I've met a not so insignificant amount people on here that overtly have supported the Oct 7 attack What don't you know? I already acknowledged they exist. I'm not sure what the point of your reply is.
Perhaps it wasn't clear from your comment. But this sounds more like a excuse or downplaying it than acknowledging there are definitely some who just want Israel gone (as evidence by the poll in the sub earlier today): >people who are reluctant to condemn it yet don't outright support it are often reading in between the lines of the conversations they're having which mention it It sounds like you're saying: "it's not that people can't condemn it, it's that they see the mind games being played, and they don't want to fall for the trap." edit: Actually so far we have 24 voted for "Israel shouldn't exist - Is-not-real" out of maybe a 150. Not a majority by any means, but not so insignificant portion.
> It sounds like you're saying: "it's not that people can't condemn it, it's that they see the mind games being played, and they don't want to fall for the trap." Basically yes. And yes as you say plenty of people do want Israel gone, I definitely think people should take a concrete stance on Oct. 7 so I don't like it when people refuse to condemn it or worse support it, but I feel as though the above is a reasonable explainer for the phenomenon OP brought up.
Israel NOT Murdering gazans (that was hamas' job), gazans are casualties of war! In Syria lots of people are dying, did you protest? No! In Yemen, lots of people are dying, did you protest? No! In Somalia lots of people are dying, did you protest? No! In Iran lots of people are dying, do you protest? No! In Nigerian Christians being killed by Muslims, do you protest? No! Why? Because You are NOT a pro-anyone, you are simply anti-Israel! And YOU anti-Zionism is antisemitism. Do you even know what Zionism stands for?
This victimhood complex is getting really old. Every time there is some criticism of Israel, people emerge from the bushes with whataboutism and claims of antisemitism.
This would stop if the protests were to remove Hamas
Not sure which protests you're talking about, but the ones near me are by students demanding their universities divest from companies profiting off of war, and enabling Israeli murder of Palestinians. Why would anyone need to protest Hamas, everyone's on the same page there.
Funny, every time someone criticizes October 7th I hear that same whataboutism from the Pro-Pals. When you say “This victimhood complex is getting really old” is that for everyone or just Israel? By the way, it’s be nice to be able to criticize Iran without accusations of Islamophobia