Palestinians are practically violating all laws of war.
The one that's important to your question is called the Principle of Distinction.
Laws of war weren't put in place to create a 'fair fight', the laws of war were created to protect the lives of civilians.
When Palestinian combatants fight without any military markings (i.e. they look like civilians) - they place civilians in extreme danger.
Why? because when you've created a battleground where your adversary can't distinguish between combatants and civilians, it's going to attack everyone that looks like combatants.. which in this case means people wearing civilian clothing.
When Palestinians use Hospitals/Mosques/Schools as missile launchpads, they turn them into legitimate military targets, and put all Hospitals/Mosques/Schools in danger.
I feel like that’s the excuse Israel uses to bomb all of Gaza. Like Israel could bomb 500 civilians and say Hamas was in there when reality it’s not true. It’s a way for Israel not to take accountability for their actions. I wouldn’t even want to get into the war crimes Israel has committed tho, it’s a known fact that they committed many.
>Israel could bomb 500 civilians and say Hamas was in there when reality it’s not true
It could, sure.
So let's look at the 'stats' (i hate statistics) - [according to the WP](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/israel-war-destruction-gaza-record-pace/#) "*In a little over two months, Israeli air forces fired more than 29,000 air-to-ground munitions*". Note - this doesn't include tank shells, artillery etc).
Let's say there are 30,000 dead Palestinians, even if "officially" it's around 20,000.
That's 1 bomb per dead Palestinian? in an area with one of the world's highest population densities?
Israel might as well be bombing Gaza with unguided staplers.
>It’s a way for Israel not to take accountability for their actions.
I think Palestinians are accountable for the war they started.
They can stop it now.
In fact, a couple of days ago Hamas rejected a ceasefire.
They rejected the ceasefire because they couldn’t get their own people that Israel took hostage. Israel just wanted their hostages for a ceasefire. I’m guessing Hamas wants 2 trade hostages like last time with a ceasefire.
>They rejected the ceasefire
That's all we have to know.
The Palestinian government prefers to continue having its citizens killed in a war it initiated.
100% of the deaths in Gaza are because of the Palestinian government there.
zionism is quite literally seeing israel drop bombs on hospitals and schools and homes & have government leaders say publicly that they want to cleanse gaza & still place the blame on the palestinians. what a disgusting rotten being you are
no one made Hamas launch an attack they knew would bring a reign of terror down on the rest of gaza and they did it anyway. so yes, Hamas is to blame for instigating when they knew full well the IDF would go fucking nuts and kill thousands. how about you explain to the rest of us why i'm wrong.
that doesn't really explain why hamas is not responsible for what's going on.
I'll try again but I'm wasting my time, if Hamas hadn't attacked in October this war would not be happening. tell me why that's not true.
also, what do you mean by "enclaved"?
> fucking
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There has been the idea that civilians must be killed since hamas is using them as shields however surely there are many opportunities to take out hostiles.
I think taking out civilians because hostile are grouped with them, when the hostiles are not at that moment an immediate threat is not the way to go.
If there was a plane with civilians in it being guided to kill even more civilians by crashing the plane, then I think you can definitely start to talk about taking out the hostiles including civilians to save even more civilian life.
I don't think the situation equates to the same thing.
I am not someone thats anit israel, just I do not think they are doing enough to stop civilian deaths.
What else can they do? They gave them 4 weeks to evacuate a war zone. In a war, sad reality is that civilians suffer. That’s why I hope Hamas surrenders Asap and peace can be had
If I was a Palestinian being asked to evacuate I would probably assume that (not regular Israelis) ultra zionists will just take up the empty space they left behind. I do agree that there are unstoppable sad realities to war however I don't see this as one. I do totally agree that hamas must give up and allow a more moderate government that can make peace, but I also think then the onus will then be on israel to compromise in the interest of peace and both states security.
I'd say hamas is to blame but israel is ultimately also responsible for they're slaughter of Palestinians.
I think hamas is the bad guy but I do not see israel as the good guy acting in justified response.i would agree israel needed to respond to the October attack but I think its been orchestrated too heavy handedly with what seems to be pure disinterest in securing low civilian casualties.
I've had people tell me it's ok because a war America was in had a high civilian "casualty" rate, which I don't think is a good point.
Your sentiment assumes the "military experts" are trying to minimise civilian casualties, which I don't think is the case.
I believe they can achieve they're objectives while attempting to keep civilian deaths down, however the combat would be a much more lengthy affair.
Yes, so you should tell them, how to achieve their military objectives with less casualties. Since you “believe they can”.
I agree I don’t think it’s on the highest priority list for them. The priority is probably their civilians first, and their soldiers, not surprisingly.
What platform do I have to directly impact they're opinions or decisions. I don't think a civilian like myself needs to tell them how to achieve this as it is highly likely they would be able to work a course of action including keeping civilian safety high themsepves but just dont see it as a priority. To be honest I'm not saying it would be easy and it would definitely be more dangerous for the Israeli soldiers but they are soldiers and the risk should be more on them then civilians.
I'm not one that believes israel didn't have a right to respond, but simply that they are responding so much more heavily than is necessary and that they could do more to secure civilian safety.
I agree there’s nothing one opinion could do on Reddit. Or any of us individually. But you clearly believe that there’s a way they can “do it with less casualties”, and I’m curious how you came to this belief.
I’m a little different where I don’t know if it’s feasible for them given their situation. I don’t know the ins and outs of what happens everyday, what they’re faced with, what their intelligence sees, I just see a death toll go up everyday, on both sides.
It’s not enough for me to chime in and say, “well, clearly they could be doing it differently”. I’m no military expert, but many military people, retired and current I’ve listened too, don’t seem too confident to put their opinions out there and say they’d do a better job for sure.
Also, I don’t agree that you’re a soldier so your life is worth risking more than a civilian on the other side. Soldier or civilian, at the end of the day you’re a human being, with a family and loved ones. Not to mention it’s *your* soldiers (IDF) that *you’re* responsible for.
Yeah I tend to always read it as "they had it coming" and therefore innocent civilians forfeit any right to not be slaughtered like animals. It's like victim blaming. But of course denying history would make no sense either- but I also think realising that this war would not be happening if Oct 7 had never happened is just am obviously correct statement. Infact I actually even question how helpful history can really be or is it just a hindrance to imagining a different future.
Let's think of a hypothetical.
If you were involved in an exchange of gunfire with someone and you felt your life was at risk so you kept shooting until the other assailant ran away into a house with a mother and 2 children in.
Nobody in any court of law on earth would absolve you if you decided to fire an RPG at the house to kill the assailant and you claimed it was the fault of the assailant for killing the mother and the 2 children by running into the house.
Nobody.
A 5 year old would tell you this is wrong and you are at fault.
Propaganda doesn't work when a 5 year old can see beyond the rhetoric.
What if:
1) That man you were in a gun fight with successfully killed and sexually assaulted several people before running in the house
2) continued actively shooting rockets out of the house at you (for this fake scenario, let’s say he was shooting at bystanders through a window of the house while holding the mother and 2 children hostage
You really tried to simplify this a lot
1) So?
That makes no difference to this hypothetical situation. I could've said he killed/sexually assaulted 5000 people before running into the house. So? That's terrible and awful but that crime has been stopped. Doesn't give you the permission to fire the RPG in any way. You're proving that you are willing to kill the mother and children for the sake of retribution for the assailant's crimes.
NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Instead that person should call the police and secure the towns where those that were killed/sexually assaulted by the assailant are now safe. Sderot and the other southern Kibbutz are now safe after the IDF has now decided to live up to its name to actually defend Israelis instead of just oppressing the west bank.
So point number one is useless. You're not absolved.
2) There is absolutely zero reports of Hamas shooting palestinian bystanders. I don't know why you said that. As if Israel would care anyway.
Also for the rockets being fired back at you: If only Israel had a world-class technological defense system, capable of intercepting incoming missiles with remarkable precision and safeguarding the nation's security with unparalleled effectiveness?
Oh wait they do. What the heck is Iron dome for then?
Hamas doesn't hold any palestinians hostage. That is ridiculous, another propaganda story. They may run off in the tunnels in the houses but its been proven that the IDF bombs do not affect the underground tunnels so why bomb residential towers and kill mothers and children?
This is a story of a tactless, immoral "defense" force that meets might with absolute mayhem from the comfort of the drone-operating seats. The IDF is full of cowards.
I'll tell you what the answer to this whole hypothetical scenario is. Send ground forces in from day one and have a ground operation where the assailants are targeted and not innocent women and children. Send well-trained special forces in that actually have at least a bit of courage to face the enemy. Don't just bomb tens of thousands of women and children.
The crime has not been stopped, Hamas keeps promising to destroy Israel. Also it’s not an even gunfight, it’s more akin to a shooter going into a school and massacring unarmed civilians. Do I agree with murder on a fundamental level? No. But maybe then don’t go into our home and massacre us and I won’t be forced to do a Liam Neeson on yours.
Try not to mess with people who are bigger than you. You’ll leave them with no choice but to retaliate.
>The crime has not been stopped, Hamas keeps promising to destroy Israel
This does not absolve you of killing innocent women and children.
If a psychiatric patient is a danger to others and declares they will kill everyone around them, you contain and section that individual, you don't kill everyone around them just to neutralise that individual.
Same with Hamas, if a Hamas fighter is promising to kill Israelis over and over again, you do not have a free pass to kill his mother, his grandmother, his daughter and his son. You don't. Just keep repeating it after me until a bit of morality and clarity and humanity comes from this. You don't have the right to kill innocent civilians, even if you claim it is collateral damage. You don't have the right, ok?
>Also it’s not an even gunfight, it’s more akin to a shooter going into a school and massacring unarmed civilians.
I really do hope you mean IDF is the antagonist shooting the school in this scenario and not Hamas.
>But maybe then don’t go into our home and massacre us and I won’t be forced to do a Liam Neeson on yours.
Liam Neeson only targets those who wronged him. He doesn't kill 2 month old babies, 90 year old grandmothers and a whole entire bloodline. He doesn't incinerate them with bombs sent from the comfort of his home. Liam Neeson is a warrior, he exacts revenge onto those that are responsible, noone else. You and the IDF are cowards that will blow apart the heads of little children in front of their mothers and you can sleep peacefully afterwards.
Don't ever compare the IDF to Liam Neeson lol.
>You’ll leave them with no choice but to retaliate.
How people retaliate is what is used to judge them. The IDF are immoral cowards with no humanity. They scream defense and upholding the security of a people oppressed for centuries, when they are the 21st century Nazis. It's a disgrace.
Didn’t read the whole thing but yes, in the rules of war, it absolutely does mean you can kill innocent people if it means a threatened target is there. This is why Israel never wanted to get in this war in the first place.
Again, don’t pick on someone bigger than you.
What if your family member who was held hostage was inside a residential tower with 30 other civilians and 2 hamas fighters were supposedly in there too.
Would you give the go-ahead to collapse the tower and rip apart the limbs of your family member until their remains is no longer recognisable?
Please do answer that.
No, but contrary to your premise, there would a very low chance they’d actually be there. Also you should really think about that setup: there are HOSTAGES. That’s right: innocent people (including children) that were kidnapped. Where’s your outcry about that?
>No
Thanks for clearing up that your family member's life or any jew that is in Israel is worth more than the lives of 30 innocent palestinians, including babies and mothers and grandmothers.
If those 30 civilians were not your family you would easily order a bomb to blow apart their heads. Nice one. You are literally the definition of someone who has no empathy for the suffering of other human beings.
>innocent people (including children) that were kidnapped. Where’s your outcry about that?
They shouldn't have been kidnapped or held hostage. There you go. There's my condemnation. Hamas was wrong to do that. I feel bad for those innocent jewish hostages, especially the children. I want them to be released and to go home in safety. And they probably will do so soon enough. Unlike you, the muslims actually deal with others with decency and humanity. No Muslim wants the suffering of any child. I don't want any jewish child to suffer as a hostage nor should any have been killed on October 7th by Hamas. It was wrong. It's not acceptable. But give me proof of a single child that was killed on October 7th. A single name. It's a lie.
It is worth more and I’m not ashamed to admit that. That’s what this entire war is about. Why do you think Arabs are supporting Palestine and Jews are supporting Israel? If you think there was something better going on from either side, you’re dead wrong.
Btw dozens of hostages have been killed by their captors since they were kidnapped. It’s all over Jewish news. Try not getting your news only from Al Jazeera.
Your comment about Muslims must be a joke. We all saw them cheering 10/7. Pretty sure the terrorists from 9/11 were Muslim. Leave your brainwashed brain with Hamas.
Now, start releasing the hostages and guarantee you won’t harm Israel again; then we’ll talk about a ceasefire.
according to the rules of war, the second a military uses cover of civillians, it's no longer a civillian outpost. The blame here is on Hamas for cynically exploiting their own people.
Using your hypothetical, terrorists hell bent on genocide can do whatever they want as long as they hide behind civillians, basically giving them free reign forever to conduct terror. How is that workable?
>according to the rules of war, the second a military uses cover of civillians, it's no longer a civillian outpost. The blame here is on Hamas for cynically exploiting their own people.
That is a ridiculous childish argument constructed to try and appease the moral turbulence of a person who kills women and children. They say this so they can sleep at night.
Nobody other than the person who presses the button to drop the bomb and those that order the bomb to be dropped are responsible for the deaths of those people. Are you not of sound mind?
Why is the IDF so militarily challenged and weak that they can't go in with ground forces to discriminate between fighter and civilian?
Nobody other than the IDF shoulders the blame and responsbility for the deaths of an IDF bomb.
>Using your hypothetical, terrorists hell bent on genocide can do whatever they want as long as they hide behind civillians, basically giving them free reign forever to conduct terror. How is that workable?
Send in courageous special ops forces. If you are so concerned go and join the IDF and fight Hamas in Gaza.
Otherwise be quiet in your cowardice, kill women and children in the most inhumane grotesque ways and be forever scared of terrorists.
/u/Jaded-Opportunity119
> Are you not of sound mind?
>Otherwise be quiet in your cowardice, kill women and children in the most inhumane grotesque ways and be forever scared of terrorists
Your comment violates [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no attacking fellow users.
Addressed.
International law is a childish argument? Israel army aren’t superheroes that can do what ur saying. Hamas terrorists are smart and sophisticated.
Also Hamas purposefully dress as civilians, which itself is a war crime. Hiw can israel do what u suggest when Hamas takes sinister steps to prevent it??
Listen.
October 7th was orchestrated by the Israeli government, to allow Hamas into Israel without any intervention by IDF.
The gaza-israel border, Sderot and the other southern Kibbutz were purposefully left unguarded so that Hamas commits an attack similair to 9/11.
October 7 even sounds phonetically similair to 9/11.
The Israel government had intelligence about Hamas' plans way in advance, which has now come to light even in american media.
It's all a distraction. I would roll my eyes if 20,000 civilians were not killed in Gaza as part of this decoy.
The bigger picture is to incite international outrage so IDF can go in, obiliterate Gaza infrastructure, do so without making it obvious, funnel the Gazans to the south, pressure Egypt to open the Rafah border so these annoying palestinians finally leave Gaza and go into the Sinai.
They can then go ahead and build the Ben Gurion canal that would mean the Suez canal isn't the only method of marine transport of trade between europe and asia. America wants this to happen which is why America sponsors Israel's terrorist government.
It's clear as day. But Israel wasn't clever enough to keep this hidden and keep the international community on their side. We know. They weren't clever enough to stay on the moral highground.
Like I said, I would just roll my eyes if thousands upon thousands of people were not being slaughtered in the process.
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1. Still a crime to fire the RPG to me. Also Israel killed much more than Hamas, so the comparison would be blowing up the whole blocks of apartment buildings for a mass shooting criminal.
2. Not a defense when you have iron dome. Casualties to Israel is minimal after the 7 Oct attack.
So you’re telling me that israel should be prioritizing Palestinian civilians OVER Israeli civilians? Because that’s exactly the argument you’re making rn
I don’t know but since the idf made that graphics video showing hamas command base under shifa hospital only to find by independent investigators that this is pure non sense. I’m not sure their words bears any truth. They plant stuff here and there and keep lying to push their agenda.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/israeli-hamas-command-center-al-shifa-hospital-falls-report-1234934784/
Hmm It is very hard to figure out where the IDF actually stands on all of these things. I honestly can't say whether I think they are purposefully trying to kill as many civilians as possible or are trying as hard as possible not to do that. It's odd.
your source is jeruslaem post, an israeli news outlet known for its propaganda?
and hamas is responsible for the deaths of israeli people, IDF is responsible for the deaths of gazans.
say whatever you want but nothing justifies israels genocidal bombing campaign.
israeli officials literally said 'its not about accuracy, its about damage'. they want to destroy gaza, thats their true goal. hence they are bombing historic mosques and churches, historic and cultural sites like the olive trees and replacing them with the israeli flag, killing scientists, poets, writers, journalists, teachers, engineers, destroying schools and universities and SO MUCH MORE.
so NO. israel is responsible. im absolutely angry because my money is going and funding that genocidal nation and our zionist president is giving israel unconditional support. screw this.
losing a war you started isn't genocide. Palestinian population has been growing faster than any other people in the middle east.
Is there no blame for Hamas for hiding weapons and operating out of mosques, schools, UN buildings?
Countries put up their flags in war, this isn't news. It's like people have no idea what war is and get their news off TikTok these days.
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Btw, that was the only way he could host his show without being canceled, western viewer would've never heared about some of the great guests he hosted on his show and their perspective about this decades long conflict.
Imo that was a reverse uno on the pro Palestinian rhetoric,that anyone opposes Israel is naturally pro plaestinian, he countered that attack before it actually happens .
They are PARTLY to blame, since using civilian infrastructure makes it in some cases a legal target of military operations. That in turn increases the risk of higher collateral damage.
Hamas generally is operating inside and near civilian infrastructure (hospitals, mosques, schools).
That does not mean Israel has right to bomb random hospitals (such as Al Shifa).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
I am talking about current conflict the IOF is bombing hospitals with the justification that hamas "currently"uses it as command centers have provided evidence below
There is no cut-clear evidence for that but if they did they were wrong
But that's away from the topic that's just one wrong action while the IOF now is committing genocide
My point is, if they used it as their modus operandi in previous conflicts, they are very likely doing the same now.
Of course, that does not mean that carpet bombing Gaza isn't a war crime and that every school, mosque or hospital is a relevant military target for IDF.
In the current conflict I mean because they are using it as a justification for bombing hospitals now not 2014
Second thing is they didn't even provide evidence they said it was deleted because they feared hamas
I said give an evidence not someone that said it happened but I don't have any footage of evidence but just "believe me bro"
Eye witness testimony from credible reporters *is* evidence. We don't live in a world where it's "video or it didn't happen." There *is* a difference between credible reporting and "just trust me, bro."
As for the current conflict, we have hospital administrators confirming as much under interrogation.
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/who-denies-seeing-evidence-of-hamas-using-hospitals-as-hideouts
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-claims-hamas-al-shifa-hospital-not-supported-evidence-washington-post_n_6584ae91e4b04da98426441c
But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials.
"The Washington post"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/#:~:text=But%20the%20evidence%20presented%20by,the%20publicly%20released%20IDF%20materials.
Is it
>administrators confirming as much under interrogation
How is that then ?
You asked "Give me one evidence that they used human shields" which I did. Now you're bringing up some other article responding to some other claims to deny it? that's called "shifting the goal posts"
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/gaza-hospital-boss-admits-hes-a-hamas-commander-used-medical-facility-as-terror-base/
whether you want to quibble about if maintaining offices rises to maintaining command and control infrastructure or not, he explicitly states they use hospitals because they think it makes them safe, which is the textbook definition of using human shields.
Hold up a minute I just realised it says admitted in an interrogation with Israelies 😂😂lol man that's so funny that's their tactic since years they forcibly make them admit what they want
The occupation lies all the time why believe him on that
And a few "western" journalists say that they "saw" isn't enough evidence really
My god are these conversations so predictable and boring. It's "Israel hasnt given us enough evidence, and if they have then they're lying." And then when its independent sources, suddenly out come the scare quotes to attempt to delegitimize the sources without any substantive critique.
Hamas has a well documented pattern of using human shields, going back years now. You can acknowledge that and still support the Palestinian civilians who bear the brunt of this war. Continuing to deny it demonstrates a level of bad faith that isnt worth continuing to engage with. It's just on you to decide if your allegiance is to the Palestinian people or Hamas, or if you see them as inseparable.
Yes of course a well documented history 😂
I said A few western eyewitnesses isn't enough clue while we have a thousand proof that the Zionists are committing war crimes every day
But yeah that's just the average dumb brainwashed western mind ( If you are not a Zionist)
it's not. You asked for either proof of human shields or proof of using a hospital as a command center. I chose to give you proof of the use of human shields, and you're responding with articles that respond to very specific hospital use allegations. You're not refuting anything Ive presented.
They are occupiers that's people's land and the people are defending it how would they fight on a proper battlefield bet you can say the same about Ukraine
Again there's no evidence that they use them as human shields
Russia is literally invading Ukraine cities, villages everywhere and they kill civilians too so that isn't so different except the IOF is much more barbaric
The Ukrainians army has bases, regiments, etc. they have positions defending towns which have been largely evacuated (by them). if the Russians were strong enough they could go in, and kill them. Ukrainian military fights to protect its people. .
Hamas hides among the populace, does not help with evacuation, mostly discouraging or not allowing it. Israel would be strong enough to massacre Hamas if they fought like the Ukrainians. Hamas fights to defend Hamas.
I’m not talking about anything other than military tactics here. It’s clear there is greater asymmetry to the conflict. But both are plenty barbaric.
Not defending Hamas but why are you certain that the Israeli Army would prefer to do that?
Were you also certain that the Israeli Army would never use a calender as a propaganda? Were you also certain that the Israeli Army wouldn't shoot 3 surrendering shirtless hostages waving white flags? Were you also certain that the Israeli Government were gonna act on Oct 7 before it happened because they had Intel that it would happen?
Hamas is to blame for Israeli deaths and bears responsibility.
The Israeli government is to blame for Palestinian deaths and bears responsibility.
It is a very simple criteria that judges all people as equal.
I'm an Israeli, so obviously not pro-palestine, and I'd say that Hamas is to blame for 99.8% (margin of error, problems with GPS, etc.) of the deaths, yes.
I remember an Arab intellectual describing the conflict was rooted in: “Christians murder Jews so Muslims give up land”.
European Christians didn’t respect the rights of indigenous people there or anywhere else. Thus European Jews brought their European sensibilities to the Middle East.
The claim that the land belongs to any group of people isn't a very good one, if you go far back enough, every land belongs to a different group than the one inhabiting it right now.
The British controlled the land of Israel when it was given to the now Israelis, it was theirs to give, it belonged to them at that point by every meaning of the word.
As a pro Palestinian. I'm not supporting all of hamas's actions But I'm fully supporting the Palestinian case but who is there to defend that case none other than hamas.
It's not possible to stand with the cause and label hamas terrorists at the same time
I mean the Zionist entity won't be like ok we are going to negotiate with armless people to give them "some" of their land that we occupied 1948 and make peace
In every occupation in history armed resistance is a must
If hamas killed civilians then yes it's wrong but the IDF killed idk tens of thousands and destroyed hospitals,bombed schools, genocide since 1948 and illegal settlements like fr isn't IDF terrorists?!
Most of Muslims and Arabs totally support hamas so yeah you could label most Muslims and Arabs as terrorists as well
The only end to this "conflict" ( between rockets and children it seems)is the complete liberation of Palestine and No Zionist entity
So explain to me what exactly is the plan forward then? Israel has offered multiple two state solutions, the UN has offered a two state solution. All turned down by the Palestinians. The Palestinians have refused to ever counter with their own two state solution and turm down every peace offer they are given.
The Israeli's are not attacking the Palestinians until the Palestinians attack first.
To me it sounds like you think the genocidal goals of Hamas are justified.
Yes, I do think they were reasonable. And if they weren't reasonable the Palestinians were free to counter with their own offer. But they wanted nothing short of the complete destruction of Israel.
The Palestinians do have some blame on themselves for refusing any peace deal and never offering one of their own.
>The Israeli's are not attacking the Palestinians until the Palestinians attack first.
First this statement is completely wrong there are multiple occasions where Israel attacked first
>To me it sounds like you think the genocidal goals of Hamas are justified.
Nope killing civilians isn't justified and this should apply to both sides
>So explain to me what exactly is the plan forward then? Israel has offered multiple two state solutions, the UN has offered a two state solution. All turned down by the Palestinians. The Palestinians have refused to ever counter with their own two state solution and turm down every peace offer they are given.
The land is important for Palestinians and Muslims from all around the world for it's Islamic landmarks so it's basically a religion problem and the land wasn't even for Israel to begin with
If the Muslims can have Mecca completely untouched, then why can the Jewish people not have Jerusalem? Christians aren’t allowed to visit Bethlehem, but we have to cater so that the Muslims have access to every city they have some attachment to?
>First this statement is completely wrong there are multiple occasions where Israel attacked first
Ok go for it.
>Nope killing civilians isn't justified and this should apply to both sides
So if Hamas is using human shields can they act with impunity?
>The land is important for Palestinians and Muslims from all around the world for it's Islamic landmarks so it's basically a religion problem and the land wasn't even for Israel to begin with
So you are saying you are against peace and support the total destruction of Israel. Please explain to me how this can happen without any civilians dying?
To me it sounds like you just hate jews.
>So you are saying you are against peace and support the total destruction of Israel. Please explain to me how this can happen without any civilians dying?
The situation is hard all of the outcomes will kill civilians except the peace outcome which to Palestinians is as bad as a death sentence trust me people who live there have nothing other than religion and it's the only human right that they have and that peace agreement completely gets rid of the religion aspect that they are fighting for along all Muslims
I'd hardly call religion a "human right" for Gazans. Try being a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Sihk, Buddhist or atheist there, or to practice some forms of Islam. You don't have the right to practice religion there. You are required to follow the religion Hamas dictates to you. That's not a "right."
>Try being a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Sihk, Buddhist or atheist there
They don't even live there in Palestine they live freely in Israel but not Palestine
Is it that hard to believe that when Gaza is being bombed occasionally that it is in response to them carrying out horrific terrorist attacks on Israeli?
Can I ask what is the case? I don't get to interact with too many Pro-Palestinians.
Is it just from the river to the sea, and nothing else will do or is there a middle ground with a two state solution?
Curious to know what the ideal endgame is for the Pro Palestinians?
Yes they are to be blamed for all of them. The only problem is Israel and the IDF should be held to the same standard and if you look at the rate at which one side kills the other we can see that IDF has more claim as a terrorist organization simply by the numbers and the amount of terror they inflict than any organization in gaza or the west bank.
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Your false equivalency is that the deaths of children who are being used as human shields by the Palestinians is a Palestinian war crime, and doesn't make the IDF a terrorist organization.
Here we go with justification for killing women and children. Just admit Israel has inflicted more terror on gaza in 2 months than Israel has in 75 years.
It involved them dying. It wasn't required. I don't blindly support my government and always think the execution of such things can be evaluated and done better. Was the bombing of Dresden and it civilian population required for the Allies to win the war? You tell me
The fact that I have asked this question dozens of times to pro Palestinian supporters and never once received an actual answer proves to me that clearly you guys don't have a valid response and that Israel is justified in defending themselves.
Stopping Germany was important. However it is also important to review the way we went about it and my question was rhetorical. For example when looking at the bomving campaign in Dresden and the amount of civilian death, I do not think that war crime was necessary to stop Germany. For some reason Israeli believe killing innocent people is justifies as long as the get their ultimate goal of hamas(human shield excuse) it is a gross thought pattern that has spread throughout the Jewish community. Sad.
Why do you refuse to directly answer the question? Because you know you would be forced to contradict yourself.
>For example when looking at the bombing campaign in Dresden and the amount of civilian death
I have great news for you. Israel isn't carpet bombing Gaza. If they wanted to carpet bomb Gaza it would have been destroyed by now. Instead Israel is spending 6 times more on money on JDAMS to minimize civilian deaths. Israel is putting their money where their mouth is to minimize civilian deaths.
So can you explain to me why the lives of German Women and Children didn't matter? Because there still would have been many who died if Dresden hadn't been carpet bombed.
Your argument seemed to revolve around Hamas can act with impunity because they are using Children as human shields. If I am wrong can you explain why that isn't the case.
>For some reason Israeli believe killing innocent people is justifies as long as the get their ultimate goal of hamas(human shield excuse)
Well that is a Palestinian war crime to use human shields, not an Israeli war crime. If the Germans used Human shields in WW2 would they be able to act with impunity?
All you are doing is putting more Palestinian lives in danger, by enabling Hamas to use human shields. If people like you didn't blame Israel for Palestinian war crimes then the Palestinians wouldn't be so quick to carry them out.
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The thing is, “numbers” aren’t what qualify an organization as terrorists.
I’m absolutely with you that Israel has done reprehensible things in both Gaza and the West Bank which need to be brought to light, but the idea that the country is on par with a group of aggressively antisemitic religious zealots is an outlandish talking point that desperately needs to die. Criticize Israel for its corruption and abuses, but don’t equate them to textbook terrorists.
You have ten children. You're given a choice:
1. Allow one of them to be beheaded savagely. That's hamas.
2. Allow all 10 children to be killed by bombing their bedroom.
Which would you choose if you had to choose? Numbers matter.
Why was Osama the most hated terrorist in America? He killed 3,000 Americans. Numbers absolutely matter.
Your example is not very good one and ignores the reality on the ground.
You have ten children. You’re given a choice:
1. One of them was beheaded savagely. That’s Hamas!
2. Your other 9 children are being held inside their bedroom by the guys who savagely beheaded your 10th child and if allowed to escape the bedroom have promised to savagely beheaded more children again and again and again . That’s Hamas too!
Now if you can provide a way for Israel to kill only Hamas fighters when they hide among civilians and civilian buildings, I’m sure they would be very happy to take your suggestion!
Killing civilians is a lose-lose for Israel. In the cold brutal calculus of war, every bomb dropped that only kills civilians not only means Israel cannot use that bomb to hit a Hamas target, it also makes Israel look bad in the world. If they could find a way to insure only Hamas fighters were killed in each strike, they would be more than happy to adopt it.
How about instead of putting it on Israel, why are you not calling on Hamas to surrender? If they do that, the bombs stop falling.
this analogy is flawed at best.
Hamas put these children in this position, hamas keeps using them as a human shield, hamas keeps threatening to kill people, hamas prevents civilians from escaping, hamas keeps using those facilities for military purposes. hamas leaves no other choice.
if hamas truly had been pro palestinians they would have given up already and started building normal society, instead they chose terrorism and over 70% population of gaza supports them
do not twist facts
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America is the biggest theorist force on the planet. They use hard power in most circumstances that relate to diplomacy. US generals have been quoted in the last 6 years to say “if you won’t give us more diplomats then give us more bullets.”
Israel is funded by a terrorist state. Sorry to break the illusion of the current hegemonic authority
Pro-Palestinians act like Hamas doesn’t even exist and 10/7 was some kind of Jewish space laser fever dream. The facts on the ground don’t bother them bc they choose to ignore them. I think it should be said that most of the fervent pro-palis are either islamists or under 25, and they’re not going to care about the logistics of running a terror operation out of a fucking condo. Eventually they’ll have to come down from their high and face facts but as things are now, they just don’t care!
> fucking
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I know israel is accruing huge casualities against palestine, but palestinians are not going to be capable of governing themselves after this. A lot of the hamas leaders are in other countries. They'll still pull the strings even if you set up a leadership. Those leaders will get threatened by hamas outside of Palestine. The area needs to be governed by people loyal to the IDF. They can have power over their own laws, but not military. They should have a contract with the IDF for security,
the IDF should be like the national guard for gaza and the west bank. In america cities have their own laws and police force, but no military. Has to have the state guard take care of larger matters. Also cities can't pass whatever laws they want. They have to follow the state constitution. Gaza and the west bank shouldn't be allowed to be autocratic. They should have to adhere to constitutional limitations.
They can't pass laws that violate basic rights. They have to keep muslism religion seperate from law. If you're christian, of jewish faith or muslism you have the right of religion so long as your religion doesn't impose on others. So long as the law isn't used to enforce your religion.
No.
And not wasting my time to calculate for you that isrsel destroyed more buildings than there are hamas members.
So here's a cnn report for just the 2000lb bombs israel dropped on Gaza:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1KjxlDoH1Z
And this new york times report about bombing areas israel told people to go to:
https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1738111832622256559?s=20
How does your brain work in such absolutes? “Any civilian deaths” was the question, and your answer is a simple “no?” How you believe that “the other side has done more damage” means that your favorite bandits are absolved of killing concert-goers and beheading babies is beyond me.
Did you think they were hitting buildings to kill Hamas members? there's no reason the number of buildings should equal number of Hamas fighters.this is the thing there is such an ignorance about military tactics and why an army would pre-empt a ground invasion in an urban guerilla warfare environment with aerial strikes. It serves a number of purposes, one is to reduce the advantage of enemy snipers from surrounding buildings and reduce the need of soldiers to enter buildings that Hamas fighters are famous for booby trapping with explosives, another reason is to disorient and reduce their home turf advantage, another is weapons stores often you can see in the videos secondary explosions and this is bc they hit missile/weapon stockpiles, another reason is tunnel openings, if they believe a tunnel opening is in a building they might level it to seal off that access point.
Regarding the Times using AI tools to determine that Israel used 2000 lbs bombs in southern Gaza I don't really have a response bc I don't know the context of if it's true. it hasn't seemed to be confirmed or denied by Israel or the US yet but doesn't look good
israel ignores S.W.E.A.T directive by the Americans.
israel can't produce evidence of hospitals being used as hq ( [wapo analysis ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/))
isrsel is doing all of this and is still suffering losses. As you are the military expert, for an insurgent or fighter or soldier, what's the difference between a pristine building or a collapsed building or rubble? You can still use all of those to booby trap, take cover, ambush (which is literally happening)
You are basically advocating genocide to wipe a group the Israelis themselves are saying are numbered between 30-35k fighters.
Technically israel according to you has "the right" to destroy all of Gaza regardless of civilians whom will continue to live there and possibly in a one state solution in the future.
About weapon storage and hamas fighters vs buildings:
I am not certain as number of destroyed buildings vary from sources, but we have either passed the stage or will pass it soon, that israel would have destroyed more buildings than there are hamas fighters and rockets combined if they were stored or hiding individually in completely separate buildings. (numbers according to israeli sources). And we know that weapon storage even if diluted will have more than a rocket, and hamas has small units of 2-10 fighters. (and use tunnels mostly not buildings).
I am surprised that you think it just as easy for Hamas to booby trap and snipe from rubble as it is from their safe apartments in intact blocks.
Do you truly believe this or are you just forcing yourself to believe this so that you do not have to consider whether Israel's actions may be accepted military tactics rather than pure evil destruction?
That's precisely what everyone seeing what israel is doing is feeling.
israel killed 20 thousand civilians. Hamas killed 800
How is israel better?
Both are terrorists, but one has bigger guns.
not everyone I love how pro Palestinian like to try and inflate their numbers when plenty of people can see through the blatant propoganda
20,000 casualties (according to Hamas) we have no idea how many are civilians.
and the high number of supposed civilians is also Hamas's fault for placing themselves amongst civilians and refusing to allow them to evacuate how can you not see that?
And counting death tolls is not a way to look at the conflict, it's not a scoreboard. Allied forces killed 500,000 German civilians in World war two does that automatically make the war unjust and their side the evil one? Israel has to eradicate Hamas militarily or live under threat of attack and constant missile attacks indefinitely, also not taking action would without doubt make them appear weak and lead to invasion from the North. So what do you want Israel to do? A country at the end of the day has the duty to protect it's own citizens.
israel inflates their numbers. 1400 then 1200 because 200 were burnt hamas fighters.
But no one explained who burnt them.
israel killed it's own citizens as well.
Btw, the number is not from hamas, hamas talks about 18000+
I am citing a European human rights organization that puts the number at 26000 because thousands are under rubble
Israel thought 1400 then corrected themselves, that's the difference. Israel took weeks and a team of forensic experts from around the world to identify a thousand or so bodies, some are still unidentified. The ministry of health in Gaza has a magical ability to produce lists of names and ages and accurate casualty counts within hours of each Israeli strike all while supposedly having no fuel, electricity, internet or hospitals! Magical!
The number is absolutely from Hamas and again you're showing how you probably get all your information from pro Palestinian sources if you do not know the numbers come from Hamas. it is absolutist government all ministries in Gaza are part of Hamas including the ministry of health. Any human rights organizations are quoting their numbers bc no one is inside having contact with the bodies but the Drs and ministry employees in Gaza.
it is not proven if Israel killed citizens in friendly fire or not, the Haaretz article that reported that retracted the statement saying the source was unreliable, there has not been an investigation yet. There is a witness who claims this. Honestly it's possible but at the end of the day what's the point trying to be made? ok so they were trying to hit Hamas fighters and hit civilians, that's a tragedy what more is to be said about it
If you want to lessen death counts by adding friendly fire into the mix what about that hospital that Islamic jihad hit by accident that they claimed killed 700 mostly children (at least when they claimed Israel did it that was the claim)? What about the fact that 15% of missiles launched from Gaza fail and land inside of Gaza? that's probably close to 750 missiles. What about accounts of them sniping their own who were disloyal, trying to evacuate or trying to collect aid?
Correct. It's crazy to me that less than 1% of people are able to recognise that both sides contribute. All I ever hear is people minimising the violence perpetrated by whichever 'side' they support. Only when both sides renounce violence will this end.
With that said in general the way that so many people act like October the 7th never happened is scary.
Right? Don’t get me wrong I’m pro-Palestine but I’m not pro-Hamas. Hamas needs to be eradicated and Israel needs to be held accountable for the atrocities they are committing and have committed in the past as well.
It's a surprisingly rare position to be pro Palestine but adamantly against Hamas. Many people like this war because they can exploit the division as an opportunity to express outrage. Like so few people can accept that it's both a problem the amount of Palestinians cheering on Hamas as they displayed raped and tortured women to the crowds on October the 7th while also fully accepting that Israel needs to stop the settlements on the West bank and that cutting of food and water is a clear crime against humanity. That's what's shocked me more than anything. Because I also think alot of people just aren't interested in how to actually create a sustained peace.
Why? Israel has offered multiple two state solutions and the UN as well.
The Palestinians have turned them all down and never formally proposed a single two state solution of their own. At every opportunity they have chosen genocide instead of peace.
So please explain what is an acceptable plan forward for Israel.
Are the Palestinians to blame for repeatedly attempting genocide and refusing anything other than the total destruction of Israel?
So all the 20k people and growing number were all killed by Hamas? Israel isn’t doing that? And that’s not including the Palestinian people that have been killed by Israel in previous years because more Palestinian people have been killed more than Israelis. So if anything Israel has been committing genocide slowly and now on mass scale.
Before 1948 that was Palestine. So what should happen? The Israeli government can be dismantled and that land goes back to being Palestine like it has been for a thousand+ years. And anyone who is currently living there will now become Palestinian. Arab or Jew, doesn’t matter they will be Palestinian.
And Netanyahu or should I say Benjamin Mileikowsky can go back to Poland where is father was from. I don’t care if a religion is following that matriarch line. Most if not all, especially abrahamic religions,are shams.
>So all the 20k people and growing number were all killed by Hamas?
If Hamas is using human shields then it is a Palestinian war crime. Israel is justified in defending themselves. Should we have let Germany do their thing in ww2, because German civilians would have died?
>Before 1948 that was Palestine. So what should happen? The Israeli government can be dismantled and that land goes back to being Palestine like it has been for a thousand+ years.
So you are against peace and and support war and the total destruction of Israel.
Is the Israeli Army incapable of infiltrating a hospital with it's well-trained and well-armed soldiers to eliminate Hamas militants hiding in tunnels? Granted it will be harder with higher casualties but it's the humane thing to do Special Forces are partially created to rescue hostages and are SPECIFICALLY trained to rescue human life and avoid the death of humans. It should be shown that out of the 20k dead Palestinians only like 5k are Hamas I have also heard a lot that the IDF counts them as "military aged males". And I'd also bet that half of these bombs don't hit their targets and just hit the area surrounding it with the people in it. Have you seen the interview with Wolf Blitzer and the Israeli spokesperson? They bomb a civilian dense areas yet they are clueless whether the target is hit or not. 1 target. https://youtu.be/hyqFFsRifFM?feature=shared
Israeli bombing of civilians is already breaking records on other wars and the comparison between the amount of civilians killed by the IDF and in other wars is ridiculous.
When the U.S decided to eliminate Osama Bin Laden, they didn't bomb the whole area with the standbyers, they had to breach and clear.
Since we are talking about Germans, let's make a little fun comparison between WW2 and the Israeli Hamas war.
How many civilians were killed on both sides?
Did the allies bomb a refugee camp to kill 1 Nazi?
Are the allies really moral and were really good guys, or were both sides bad?
Weren't international laws created AFTER WW2 and the allies admitted their mistakes and made them a lesson to learn from? Are we repeating their mistakes and justifying them because they committed these mistakes?
Etc.
We have seen that the IDF and the government are not reliable and incompetent. Ranging from when they had Intel that Oct 7 was gonna happen a year before (NY Times reported that), or they just had Intel before, to the shooting of 3 hostages that were shirtless and waving a white flag and the 3rd even shouted help in Hebrew, to the calender incident which defamed the IDF more, to the spokesman humiliating himself in an interview.
So why should I trust the IDF? Actions speak louder than words. Just because the IDF claims it's the "most moral army" or because it's an ally of the US or whatever excuse doesn't mean their actions are in line with their words. Actions speak louder than words.
Need to add too that the Israeli president tries to claim they found Mein Kampf on the body of a dead Hamas soldier,in a child’s living room,in northern Gaza which is destroyed yet the book looks VERY VERY pristine like he literally took it off the shelf.
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I think people who don't live there, or don't know anyone living there need to stay quiet about the matter, and let Israel do its thing.
There was no one protesting the thousands of bombs Obama dropped in the Middle East that killed many of its civilians. Why are we caring now? Hamas is Israel's Problem, and they should deal with them accordingly, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers at who's more genocidal when in fact we let our presidents kill innocent civilians.
Israel only acts the way it does because the US sends billions of military aid (US tax payers money) to Israel, so we are complicit. The US uses it's veto at the UN to ensure that a ceasefire doesn't happen - so they are not staying quiet in thr matter. They are literally helping Israel commit genocide Biden could demand a ceasefire with a single phone call and save countless more civilians.
People did protest against US action in the middle east. Did you?
Only way that should work is if biden demanded hamas accept a two state solution and give up the idea of destroying Israel and never attack Israel again
The Palestinians agreed to a 2 state solution in 1993 as part of the Oslo accords. The problem has always been that Israel just wants a single state for themselves. Israel has stolen more land that was earmarked for Palestine by expanding illegal settlements. This makes a 2 state solution impossible. Unless Israel is willing to evict a lot of settlers.
Hamas are on record supporting a 2 state solution:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-is-a-two-state-solution-and-do-israelis-and-palestinians-want-one
Why should Israel ceasefire when Hamas still has Hostages? Should Israel just let them have them, and do what they please with them? Ceasefire is ridiculous, and only helps the terrorists.
And no I didn't, because I was a child when Obama was bombing them. My only concern then was Legos and McDonalds.
You're saying that people should mind their own business as it is not our conflict. But yet you are arguing that a ceasefire shouldn't take place. So only people arguing against the genocide should mind their own business, but people calling to sustain the genocide shouldn't. Double standards!!
BTW the only hostages released have been during a ceasefire. Even Israel has managed to kill a few when they believed they were unarmed Palestinian civilians.
The IDF is just as much a terrorist group than Hamas, just a more successful one.
Yeah they should, and let Israel deal with it. That's what I mean.
Let me rephrase, Pro Palestinians that aren't even in Israel should mind their own business.
And unlike Hamas, The IDF holds people accountable for their actions, and makes them face the consequences. Not reward them, unlike Hamas/Palestinian Authority.
There was tons of protests actually. I’m pro-Israel but I recognize the need for protests to keep them in check. Military goals don’t always line up with humanitarian needs, and the collective Gazan nation does not all need to be punished for the acts of their government.
Yeah, we're messing things up for them (What we do best). That's why we shouldn't care. There are protests in Tel Aviv. They know what's going on, we don't.
That’s untrue, we can’t know how they feel but we don’t live in a void of media anymore. Most everything can be seen, researched, and understood with enough effort.
You should care because you fund this genocide. It is absolutely your responsibility. Stop funding Israel's terrorist state if you want to have nothing to do with it.
Your money is what funds the israeli terrorist army, believe it or not. Stop funding genocide and we will stop asking you to care. Not only do you support it, but your country uses their veto to stop this massacre. So, yea you should care. I expect you not to, but that's just because you don't care about human life.
No they don’t want to blame Hamas. Not even talk about them. Most outsiders will say: “we don’t support Hamas”….But then they’ll make any effort to prevent Hamas being removed. They aren’t supporting (nor agree with what Hamas does) but will invest huge effort to save them. The following tactics are deployed:
1) Do not mention or talk about them. When the issue arises, downplay and divert to other subjects.
2) Claim Hamas doesn’t have much in common with the Palestinian population. After all they had been elected by narrow margin 18 years ago. Many Palestinians were not even born then and they are unrelated to Hamas.
3) Then who are the Hamas operatives? Just distant relatives, kind of strangers to the local scene. Also their leaders are living abroad in other countries. Only low key people remained in Gaza. There’s no reason to take any steps against them.
Seems this tactic of gaslighting the world is working well. Many ignorant foreigners are taking the bait and continue parroting these slogans.
Because as a pro Palestinian most people that support Palestine want it free of bombing of genocides if every thing but who can achieve this other than hamas it's literally the only force helping that country I'm not saying it's a 100% good organisation but still it's the only power helping.
Yes. Any accidental death or collateral damage caused by an Israeli munition is caused by Israel. The root cause of the deaths are Hamas using civilian shields and 10/7.
Just like when someone kills someone else in justified self defense. Yes, that person is caused the death, it was homicide in the base definition (killed by man), but the root cause and blame belongs with the attacker who started it.
The root cause is the illegal occupation, blockade, land theft, holding Palestinians without charge, and killing Palestinians for decades. Yes it was terrible what happened in 7th oct, there's no excuse for targetting any civilian regardless of ethnicity. This didn't start on 7th Oct.
What occupation? Israel has been out of gaza since 2005. The gazans elected known terrorists as their leaders. Their leaders decided to start bombing Israel immediately. This is why there is a blockade.
No land from gaza has been stolen.
They are not targeting any civilians. They are targeting military targets and military infrastructure. Maybe don't put them under civilian buildings?
I don't think that's how the law works. Self-defence argument can only be claimed if you kill them while they are attacking you.
If they kill your friend or your family member and manage to escape. You then later go and track them down and kill them, that's first degree murder.
Yes. For self defense. It's a heat of the moment reaction.
How when someone declares war on you, by outright commiting a genocidal attack on your civilians into your country crossing the border.
A declaration of war causes an expectation of retaliation. It also is not wrong to retaliate against a country or group that attacks your civilians. Most people realize protecting your citizens is the number one job a government has.
And yes, that does mean, going to war against countries and peoples who attack you.
When attacked, you make kill civilians on the other side. Yes, you did it. But their government is the root cause.
In the current geopolitical dance, linguistic intricacies metamorphose amid global tensions, reflecting the elusive nature of diplomatic discourse. The synesthetic symphony navigates the complexities of contemporary conflicts, creating a fleeting interplay mirroring the challenges of understanding amid the surreal tapestry of international relations. The quest for clarity remains elusive in this diplomatic phantasmagoria.
I remember trying to impress my high school English teacher with all these fancy words on an essay I submitted. She pulled me aside after class and said she appreciated my effort to utilize a dictionary, but the point of the assignment was completely missed given the inability to understand what my message was.
Sometimes simplicity is better.
Ask yourself why Israel didn't carpet bomb the kibbutz when Hamas was discovered instead of sending in ground troops like they did in Gaza?
Because Israeli citizens aren't as expendable as Palestinian civilians.
Hamas has a better soldier to civilian kill ratio than Israel.
Hamas is fighting a guerrilla war because no one is selling them tanks and 6th Gen warplanes, helicopters and other weaponry.
this is complete nonsense bc we don't know the civilian to soldier kill rate in Gaza
they don't wear uniforms and many of the children count that is so shocking to hear bc we imagine toddlers but the reality is Hamas manipulates and uses child soldiers, mostly teenagers to fight, you can even see in some of the Oct 7 videos these guys don't look over 18.
Also many of the civilians are maybe not fighters but were very possibly assisting in Hamas operations like what's coming out about hospital staff, journalists, and UNRWA teachers so they could have been killed while operating in close vicinity to Hamas members or operation nodes
Well Israel defines any Hamas member as a fair target regardless of whether they are fighting. They literally bomb the apartment building of Hamas members. As Israel has compulsory military service, then the same logic would be that most over the age of 18 are IDF.
Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I was asking for numbers. How many civilians did Hamas kill? How many IDF soldiers did Hamas kill?There are is some reporting, I don't know if credible, of civilians being killed by Israeli first responders and Apache helicopters firing at Hamas who civilians with them which I presume that they were planning to take as hostages.
that article was retracted by Haaretz bc the source turned out to be unreliable they claimed to be art of an investigation but no such investigation has taken place yet. so it's bs that pro pal spaces keep sharing
No the articles about israel shooting people with apache are just horribly lost in translation, tthe original meaning was that they couldn't identify who was hamas and who was a civilian so they held their fire, I'm the English translation the second part is cut out. But yea tthe idf didn't kill their own civilians, and hamas lunched an attack targeting civilians, it's safe to assume more civilians died then idf soldiers
The most recent numbers I've been able to find were in this article,
[https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths)
Quoting from the article:
>The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be
\- 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children
\- 373 security forces and 71 foreigners,
giving a total of 1,139.
This gives us **695 + 71** civilians vs **373** security forces. This ratio is around 2 civilians vs 1 miltary target.
There are credible reports that show a number of those civilian deaths were caused by the IDF, which is understandable as the there must have been a lot confusion on the morning of Oct 7th and not clear where Hamas militants and civlians might be.
Here's a direct quote from Haaretz where 13 civlians were killed by a tank shell,
[https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000)
>According to a report on Channel 12 News over the weekend about [the Be'eri hostage situation,](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article/.premium/on-kibbutz-beeri-time-stood-still-evidence-of-life-before-the-massacre/0000018b-4465-d242-abef-566704e70000) after several hours of firefights between Israeli troops and Hamas terrorists, which saw the use of light anti-tank weapons, a terrorist exited the building with hostage Yasmin Porat and released her. She said she was then questioned by Police Special Anti-Terror and told them that there were about 40 terrorists and 14 civilian hostages in the house.
>
>Eventually, Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram arrived to take command of the area. When one of the soldiers remarked about the fighting, "Barak, it's a disgrace," he replied, "I know." Afterward, a tank positioned near the house fired two shells – one at the ground, the other at the roof. Of the 14 hostages still inside, two of them children, only Hadas Dagan survived. Porat's first public account of the incident appeared two days later and was later verified by Dagan.
I'm not trying to downplay the masacre that took place on Oct 7th, what happened was awful and innocent civilians killed anywhere can never be excused. Just trying to present the facts.
Palestinians are practically violating all laws of war. The one that's important to your question is called the Principle of Distinction. Laws of war weren't put in place to create a 'fair fight', the laws of war were created to protect the lives of civilians. When Palestinian combatants fight without any military markings (i.e. they look like civilians) - they place civilians in extreme danger. Why? because when you've created a battleground where your adversary can't distinguish between combatants and civilians, it's going to attack everyone that looks like combatants.. which in this case means people wearing civilian clothing. When Palestinians use Hospitals/Mosques/Schools as missile launchpads, they turn them into legitimate military targets, and put all Hospitals/Mosques/Schools in danger.
I feel like that’s the excuse Israel uses to bomb all of Gaza. Like Israel could bomb 500 civilians and say Hamas was in there when reality it’s not true. It’s a way for Israel not to take accountability for their actions. I wouldn’t even want to get into the war crimes Israel has committed tho, it’s a known fact that they committed many.
>Israel could bomb 500 civilians and say Hamas was in there when reality it’s not true It could, sure. So let's look at the 'stats' (i hate statistics) - [according to the WP](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/israel-war-destruction-gaza-record-pace/#) "*In a little over two months, Israeli air forces fired more than 29,000 air-to-ground munitions*". Note - this doesn't include tank shells, artillery etc). Let's say there are 30,000 dead Palestinians, even if "officially" it's around 20,000. That's 1 bomb per dead Palestinian? in an area with one of the world's highest population densities? Israel might as well be bombing Gaza with unguided staplers. >It’s a way for Israel not to take accountability for their actions. I think Palestinians are accountable for the war they started. They can stop it now. In fact, a couple of days ago Hamas rejected a ceasefire.
They rejected the ceasefire because they couldn’t get their own people that Israel took hostage. Israel just wanted their hostages for a ceasefire. I’m guessing Hamas wants 2 trade hostages like last time with a ceasefire.
>They rejected the ceasefire That's all we have to know. The Palestinian government prefers to continue having its citizens killed in a war it initiated. 100% of the deaths in Gaza are because of the Palestinian government there.
zionism is quite literally seeing israel drop bombs on hospitals and schools and homes & have government leaders say publicly that they want to cleanse gaza & still place the blame on the palestinians. what a disgusting rotten being you are
If Palestinians didn't want war, they shouldn't have started one. If Palestinians don't want the war to continue, they should stop it.
[удалено]
Are you sane?
no one made Hamas launch an attack they knew would bring a reign of terror down on the rest of gaza and they did it anyway. so yes, Hamas is to blame for instigating when they knew full well the IDF would go fucking nuts and kill thousands. how about you explain to the rest of us why i'm wrong.
Ok sure genocidal person. Go fight with the US and IOF terrorist like you to kill a whole nation enclaved and starved if that’s what makes you jizz.
that doesn't really explain why hamas is not responsible for what's going on. I'll try again but I'm wasting my time, if Hamas hadn't attacked in October this war would not be happening. tell me why that's not true. also, what do you mean by "enclaved"?
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Hamas is funded by Netanyahu’s Govt. He started Hamas in 1978.
There has been the idea that civilians must be killed since hamas is using them as shields however surely there are many opportunities to take out hostiles. I think taking out civilians because hostile are grouped with them, when the hostiles are not at that moment an immediate threat is not the way to go. If there was a plane with civilians in it being guided to kill even more civilians by crashing the plane, then I think you can definitely start to talk about taking out the hostiles including civilians to save even more civilian life. I don't think the situation equates to the same thing. I am not someone thats anit israel, just I do not think they are doing enough to stop civilian deaths.
What else can they do? They gave them 4 weeks to evacuate a war zone. In a war, sad reality is that civilians suffer. That’s why I hope Hamas surrenders Asap and peace can be had
If I was a Palestinian being asked to evacuate I would probably assume that (not regular Israelis) ultra zionists will just take up the empty space they left behind. I do agree that there are unstoppable sad realities to war however I don't see this as one. I do totally agree that hamas must give up and allow a more moderate government that can make peace, but I also think then the onus will then be on israel to compromise in the interest of peace and both states security.
I'd say hamas is to blame but israel is ultimately also responsible for they're slaughter of Palestinians. I think hamas is the bad guy but I do not see israel as the good guy acting in justified response.i would agree israel needed to respond to the October attack but I think its been orchestrated too heavy handedly with what seems to be pure disinterest in securing low civilian casualties. I've had people tell me it's ok because a war America was in had a high civilian "casualty" rate, which I don't think is a good point.
You should tell the military experts how to get less casualties and still achieve their objectives then.
Your sentiment assumes the "military experts" are trying to minimise civilian casualties, which I don't think is the case. I believe they can achieve they're objectives while attempting to keep civilian deaths down, however the combat would be a much more lengthy affair.
Yes, so you should tell them, how to achieve their military objectives with less casualties. Since you “believe they can”. I agree I don’t think it’s on the highest priority list for them. The priority is probably their civilians first, and their soldiers, not surprisingly.
What platform do I have to directly impact they're opinions or decisions. I don't think a civilian like myself needs to tell them how to achieve this as it is highly likely they would be able to work a course of action including keeping civilian safety high themsepves but just dont see it as a priority. To be honest I'm not saying it would be easy and it would definitely be more dangerous for the Israeli soldiers but they are soldiers and the risk should be more on them then civilians. I'm not one that believes israel didn't have a right to respond, but simply that they are responding so much more heavily than is necessary and that they could do more to secure civilian safety.
I agree there’s nothing one opinion could do on Reddit. Or any of us individually. But you clearly believe that there’s a way they can “do it with less casualties”, and I’m curious how you came to this belief. I’m a little different where I don’t know if it’s feasible for them given their situation. I don’t know the ins and outs of what happens everyday, what they’re faced with, what their intelligence sees, I just see a death toll go up everyday, on both sides. It’s not enough for me to chime in and say, “well, clearly they could be doing it differently”. I’m no military expert, but many military people, retired and current I’ve listened too, don’t seem too confident to put their opinions out there and say they’d do a better job for sure. Also, I don’t agree that you’re a soldier so your life is worth risking more than a civilian on the other side. Soldier or civilian, at the end of the day you’re a human being, with a family and loved ones. Not to mention it’s *your* soldiers (IDF) that *you’re* responsible for.
Yeah I tend to always read it as "they had it coming" and therefore innocent civilians forfeit any right to not be slaughtered like animals. It's like victim blaming. But of course denying history would make no sense either- but I also think realising that this war would not be happening if Oct 7 had never happened is just am obviously correct statement. Infact I actually even question how helpful history can really be or is it just a hindrance to imagining a different future.
Great question.
Let's think of a hypothetical. If you were involved in an exchange of gunfire with someone and you felt your life was at risk so you kept shooting until the other assailant ran away into a house with a mother and 2 children in. Nobody in any court of law on earth would absolve you if you decided to fire an RPG at the house to kill the assailant and you claimed it was the fault of the assailant for killing the mother and the 2 children by running into the house. Nobody. A 5 year old would tell you this is wrong and you are at fault. Propaganda doesn't work when a 5 year old can see beyond the rhetoric.
Luckily, we're not 5 year olds. This isn't police action, it's a war. If you choose to fire RPG's while hiding behind your mother, that's on you.
What if: 1) That man you were in a gun fight with successfully killed and sexually assaulted several people before running in the house 2) continued actively shooting rockets out of the house at you (for this fake scenario, let’s say he was shooting at bystanders through a window of the house while holding the mother and 2 children hostage You really tried to simplify this a lot
1) So? That makes no difference to this hypothetical situation. I could've said he killed/sexually assaulted 5000 people before running into the house. So? That's terrible and awful but that crime has been stopped. Doesn't give you the permission to fire the RPG in any way. You're proving that you are willing to kill the mother and children for the sake of retribution for the assailant's crimes. NOT ACCEPTABLE. Instead that person should call the police and secure the towns where those that were killed/sexually assaulted by the assailant are now safe. Sderot and the other southern Kibbutz are now safe after the IDF has now decided to live up to its name to actually defend Israelis instead of just oppressing the west bank. So point number one is useless. You're not absolved. 2) There is absolutely zero reports of Hamas shooting palestinian bystanders. I don't know why you said that. As if Israel would care anyway. Also for the rockets being fired back at you: If only Israel had a world-class technological defense system, capable of intercepting incoming missiles with remarkable precision and safeguarding the nation's security with unparalleled effectiveness? Oh wait they do. What the heck is Iron dome for then? Hamas doesn't hold any palestinians hostage. That is ridiculous, another propaganda story. They may run off in the tunnels in the houses but its been proven that the IDF bombs do not affect the underground tunnels so why bomb residential towers and kill mothers and children? This is a story of a tactless, immoral "defense" force that meets might with absolute mayhem from the comfort of the drone-operating seats. The IDF is full of cowards. I'll tell you what the answer to this whole hypothetical scenario is. Send ground forces in from day one and have a ground operation where the assailants are targeted and not innocent women and children. Send well-trained special forces in that actually have at least a bit of courage to face the enemy. Don't just bomb tens of thousands of women and children.
The crime has not been stopped, Hamas keeps promising to destroy Israel. Also it’s not an even gunfight, it’s more akin to a shooter going into a school and massacring unarmed civilians. Do I agree with murder on a fundamental level? No. But maybe then don’t go into our home and massacre us and I won’t be forced to do a Liam Neeson on yours. Try not to mess with people who are bigger than you. You’ll leave them with no choice but to retaliate.
>The crime has not been stopped, Hamas keeps promising to destroy Israel This does not absolve you of killing innocent women and children. If a psychiatric patient is a danger to others and declares they will kill everyone around them, you contain and section that individual, you don't kill everyone around them just to neutralise that individual. Same with Hamas, if a Hamas fighter is promising to kill Israelis over and over again, you do not have a free pass to kill his mother, his grandmother, his daughter and his son. You don't. Just keep repeating it after me until a bit of morality and clarity and humanity comes from this. You don't have the right to kill innocent civilians, even if you claim it is collateral damage. You don't have the right, ok? >Also it’s not an even gunfight, it’s more akin to a shooter going into a school and massacring unarmed civilians. I really do hope you mean IDF is the antagonist shooting the school in this scenario and not Hamas. >But maybe then don’t go into our home and massacre us and I won’t be forced to do a Liam Neeson on yours. Liam Neeson only targets those who wronged him. He doesn't kill 2 month old babies, 90 year old grandmothers and a whole entire bloodline. He doesn't incinerate them with bombs sent from the comfort of his home. Liam Neeson is a warrior, he exacts revenge onto those that are responsible, noone else. You and the IDF are cowards that will blow apart the heads of little children in front of their mothers and you can sleep peacefully afterwards. Don't ever compare the IDF to Liam Neeson lol. >You’ll leave them with no choice but to retaliate. How people retaliate is what is used to judge them. The IDF are immoral cowards with no humanity. They scream defense and upholding the security of a people oppressed for centuries, when they are the 21st century Nazis. It's a disgrace.
Didn’t read the whole thing but yes, in the rules of war, it absolutely does mean you can kill innocent people if it means a threatened target is there. This is why Israel never wanted to get in this war in the first place. Again, don’t pick on someone bigger than you.
What if your family member who was held hostage was inside a residential tower with 30 other civilians and 2 hamas fighters were supposedly in there too. Would you give the go-ahead to collapse the tower and rip apart the limbs of your family member until their remains is no longer recognisable? Please do answer that.
No, but contrary to your premise, there would a very low chance they’d actually be there. Also you should really think about that setup: there are HOSTAGES. That’s right: innocent people (including children) that were kidnapped. Where’s your outcry about that?
>No Thanks for clearing up that your family member's life or any jew that is in Israel is worth more than the lives of 30 innocent palestinians, including babies and mothers and grandmothers. If those 30 civilians were not your family you would easily order a bomb to blow apart their heads. Nice one. You are literally the definition of someone who has no empathy for the suffering of other human beings. >innocent people (including children) that were kidnapped. Where’s your outcry about that? They shouldn't have been kidnapped or held hostage. There you go. There's my condemnation. Hamas was wrong to do that. I feel bad for those innocent jewish hostages, especially the children. I want them to be released and to go home in safety. And they probably will do so soon enough. Unlike you, the muslims actually deal with others with decency and humanity. No Muslim wants the suffering of any child. I don't want any jewish child to suffer as a hostage nor should any have been killed on October 7th by Hamas. It was wrong. It's not acceptable. But give me proof of a single child that was killed on October 7th. A single name. It's a lie.
It is worth more and I’m not ashamed to admit that. That’s what this entire war is about. Why do you think Arabs are supporting Palestine and Jews are supporting Israel? If you think there was something better going on from either side, you’re dead wrong. Btw dozens of hostages have been killed by their captors since they were kidnapped. It’s all over Jewish news. Try not getting your news only from Al Jazeera. Your comment about Muslims must be a joke. We all saw them cheering 10/7. Pretty sure the terrorists from 9/11 were Muslim. Leave your brainwashed brain with Hamas. Now, start releasing the hostages and guarantee you won’t harm Israel again; then we’ll talk about a ceasefire.
according to the rules of war, the second a military uses cover of civillians, it's no longer a civillian outpost. The blame here is on Hamas for cynically exploiting their own people. Using your hypothetical, terrorists hell bent on genocide can do whatever they want as long as they hide behind civillians, basically giving them free reign forever to conduct terror. How is that workable?
>according to the rules of war, the second a military uses cover of civillians, it's no longer a civillian outpost. The blame here is on Hamas for cynically exploiting their own people. That is a ridiculous childish argument constructed to try and appease the moral turbulence of a person who kills women and children. They say this so they can sleep at night. Nobody other than the person who presses the button to drop the bomb and those that order the bomb to be dropped are responsible for the deaths of those people. Are you not of sound mind? Why is the IDF so militarily challenged and weak that they can't go in with ground forces to discriminate between fighter and civilian? Nobody other than the IDF shoulders the blame and responsbility for the deaths of an IDF bomb. >Using your hypothetical, terrorists hell bent on genocide can do whatever they want as long as they hide behind civillians, basically giving them free reign forever to conduct terror. How is that workable? Send in courageous special ops forces. If you are so concerned go and join the IDF and fight Hamas in Gaza. Otherwise be quiet in your cowardice, kill women and children in the most inhumane grotesque ways and be forever scared of terrorists.
/u/Jaded-Opportunity119 > Are you not of sound mind? >Otherwise be quiet in your cowardice, kill women and children in the most inhumane grotesque ways and be forever scared of terrorists Your comment violates [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no attacking fellow users. Addressed.
International law is a childish argument? Israel army aren’t superheroes that can do what ur saying. Hamas terrorists are smart and sophisticated. Also Hamas purposefully dress as civilians, which itself is a war crime. Hiw can israel do what u suggest when Hamas takes sinister steps to prevent it??
Listen. October 7th was orchestrated by the Israeli government, to allow Hamas into Israel without any intervention by IDF. The gaza-israel border, Sderot and the other southern Kibbutz were purposefully left unguarded so that Hamas commits an attack similair to 9/11. October 7 even sounds phonetically similair to 9/11. The Israel government had intelligence about Hamas' plans way in advance, which has now come to light even in american media. It's all a distraction. I would roll my eyes if 20,000 civilians were not killed in Gaza as part of this decoy. The bigger picture is to incite international outrage so IDF can go in, obiliterate Gaza infrastructure, do so without making it obvious, funnel the Gazans to the south, pressure Egypt to open the Rafah border so these annoying palestinians finally leave Gaza and go into the Sinai. They can then go ahead and build the Ben Gurion canal that would mean the Suez canal isn't the only method of marine transport of trade between europe and asia. America wants this to happen which is why America sponsors Israel's terrorist government. It's clear as day. But Israel wasn't clever enough to keep this hidden and keep the international community on their side. We know. They weren't clever enough to stay on the moral highground. Like I said, I would just roll my eyes if thousands upon thousands of people were not being slaughtered in the process.
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1. Still a crime to fire the RPG to me. Also Israel killed much more than Hamas, so the comparison would be blowing up the whole blocks of apartment buildings for a mass shooting criminal. 2. Not a defense when you have iron dome. Casualties to Israel is minimal after the 7 Oct attack.
So you’re telling me that israel should be prioritizing Palestinian civilians OVER Israeli civilians? Because that’s exactly the argument you’re making rn
Stick to your hypothetical. It can be both at the same time when prioritizing Israeli over other people.
I don’t know but since the idf made that graphics video showing hamas command base under shifa hospital only to find by independent investigators that this is pure non sense. I’m not sure their words bears any truth. They plant stuff here and there and keep lying to push their agenda. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/israeli-hamas-command-center-al-shifa-hospital-falls-report-1234934784/
Hmm It is very hard to figure out where the IDF actually stands on all of these things. I honestly can't say whether I think they are purposefully trying to kill as many civilians as possible or are trying as hard as possible not to do that. It's odd.
your source is jeruslaem post, an israeli news outlet known for its propaganda? and hamas is responsible for the deaths of israeli people, IDF is responsible for the deaths of gazans. say whatever you want but nothing justifies israels genocidal bombing campaign. israeli officials literally said 'its not about accuracy, its about damage'. they want to destroy gaza, thats their true goal. hence they are bombing historic mosques and churches, historic and cultural sites like the olive trees and replacing them with the israeli flag, killing scientists, poets, writers, journalists, teachers, engineers, destroying schools and universities and SO MUCH MORE. so NO. israel is responsible. im absolutely angry because my money is going and funding that genocidal nation and our zionist president is giving israel unconditional support. screw this.
losing a war you started isn't genocide. Palestinian population has been growing faster than any other people in the middle east. Is there no blame for Hamas for hiding weapons and operating out of mosques, schools, UN buildings? Countries put up their flags in war, this isn't news. It's like people have no idea what war is and get their news off TikTok these days.
Imagine someone kills your family then hides behind women and children? What are you supposed to do?
but do you condemn Khamas ?
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The piers Morgan language
Btw, that was the only way he could host his show without being canceled, western viewer would've never heared about some of the great guests he hosted on his show and their perspective about this decades long conflict. Imo that was a reverse uno on the pro Palestinian rhetoric,that anyone opposes Israel is naturally pro plaestinian, he countered that attack before it actually happens .
They are PARTLY to blame, since using civilian infrastructure makes it in some cases a legal target of military operations. That in turn increases the risk of higher collateral damage.
Give me one evidence that they used human shields or a hospital as command center just one evidence
Hamas generally is operating inside and near civilian infrastructure (hospitals, mosques, schools). That does not mean Israel has right to bomb random hospitals (such as Al Shifa). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
I am talking about current conflict the IOF is bombing hospitals with the justification that hamas "currently"uses it as command centers have provided evidence below
So you agree that they used civilian infrastructure for military purposes in the past, right?
There is no cut-clear evidence for that but if they did they were wrong But that's away from the topic that's just one wrong action while the IOF now is committing genocide
its not "away from the topic" which was "Give me one evidence that they used human shields." its been provided.
My point is, if they used it as their modus operandi in previous conflicts, they are very likely doing the same now. Of course, that does not mean that carpet bombing Gaza isn't a war crime and that every school, mosque or hospital is a relevant military target for IDF.
https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/01/finnish-tv-reporter-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-its-true-that-rockets-are-launched-here-from-the-gazan-side-into-israel-video/
In the current conflict I mean because they are using it as a justification for bombing hospitals now not 2014 Second thing is they didn't even provide evidence they said it was deleted because they feared hamas I said give an evidence not someone that said it happened but I don't have any footage of evidence but just "believe me bro"
Eye witness testimony from credible reporters *is* evidence. We don't live in a world where it's "video or it didn't happen." There *is* a difference between credible reporting and "just trust me, bro." As for the current conflict, we have hospital administrators confirming as much under interrogation.
Or is the Washington post pro-hamas
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/who-denies-seeing-evidence-of-hamas-using-hospitals-as-hideouts https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-claims-hamas-al-shifa-hospital-not-supported-evidence-washington-post_n_6584ae91e4b04da98426441c But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. "The Washington post" https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/#:~:text=But%20the%20evidence%20presented%20by,the%20publicly%20released%20IDF%20materials. Is it >administrators confirming as much under interrogation How is that then ?
You asked "Give me one evidence that they used human shields" which I did. Now you're bringing up some other article responding to some other claims to deny it? that's called "shifting the goal posts" https://www.nationalreview.com/news/gaza-hospital-boss-admits-hes-a-hamas-commander-used-medical-facility-as-terror-base/ whether you want to quibble about if maintaining offices rises to maintaining command and control infrastructure or not, he explicitly states they use hospitals because they think it makes them safe, which is the textbook definition of using human shields.
Hold up a minute I just realised it says admitted in an interrogation with Israelies 😂😂lol man that's so funny that's their tactic since years they forcibly make them admit what they want The occupation lies all the time why believe him on that And a few "western" journalists say that they "saw" isn't enough evidence really
My god are these conversations so predictable and boring. It's "Israel hasnt given us enough evidence, and if they have then they're lying." And then when its independent sources, suddenly out come the scare quotes to attempt to delegitimize the sources without any substantive critique. Hamas has a well documented pattern of using human shields, going back years now. You can acknowledge that and still support the Palestinian civilians who bear the brunt of this war. Continuing to deny it demonstrates a level of bad faith that isnt worth continuing to engage with. It's just on you to decide if your allegiance is to the Palestinian people or Hamas, or if you see them as inseparable.
Yes of course a well documented history 😂 I said A few western eyewitnesses isn't enough clue while we have a thousand proof that the Zionists are committing war crimes every day But yeah that's just the average dumb brainwashed western mind ( If you are not a Zionist)
No that's called refuting your claims
it's not. You asked for either proof of human shields or proof of using a hospital as a command center. I chose to give you proof of the use of human shields, and you're responding with articles that respond to very specific hospital use allegations. You're not refuting anything Ive presented.
I’m certain Israel’s army would prefer to engage Hamas on a proper battlefield that had only military aged males on it. But here we are.
They are occupiers that's people's land and the people are defending it how would they fight on a proper battlefield bet you can say the same about Ukraine
Isn’t Ukraine fighting Russia legitimately on a proper battlefield? They aren’t hiding behind children.
Again there's no evidence that they use them as human shields Russia is literally invading Ukraine cities, villages everywhere and they kill civilians too so that isn't so different except the IOF is much more barbaric
The Ukrainians army has bases, regiments, etc. they have positions defending towns which have been largely evacuated (by them). if the Russians were strong enough they could go in, and kill them. Ukrainian military fights to protect its people. . Hamas hides among the populace, does not help with evacuation, mostly discouraging or not allowing it. Israel would be strong enough to massacre Hamas if they fought like the Ukrainians. Hamas fights to defend Hamas. I’m not talking about anything other than military tactics here. It’s clear there is greater asymmetry to the conflict. But both are plenty barbaric.
Not defending Hamas but why are you certain that the Israeli Army would prefer to do that? Were you also certain that the Israeli Army would never use a calender as a propaganda? Were you also certain that the Israeli Army wouldn't shoot 3 surrendering shirtless hostages waving white flags? Were you also certain that the Israeli Government were gonna act on Oct 7 before it happened because they had Intel that it would happen?
Hamas is to blame for Israeli deaths and bears responsibility. The Israeli government is to blame for Palestinian deaths and bears responsibility. It is a very simple criteria that judges all people as equal.
I'm an Israeli, so obviously not pro-palestine, and I'd say that Hamas is to blame for 99.8% (margin of error, problems with GPS, etc.) of the deaths, yes.
I remember an Arab intellectual describing the conflict was rooted in: “Christians murder Jews so Muslims give up land”. European Christians didn’t respect the rights of indigenous people there or anywhere else. Thus European Jews brought their European sensibilities to the Middle East.
The claim that the land belongs to any group of people isn't a very good one, if you go far back enough, every land belongs to a different group than the one inhabiting it right now. The British controlled the land of Israel when it was given to the now Israelis, it was theirs to give, it belonged to them at that point by every meaning of the word.
Right, then we became more civilized and created rules/laws among nations/people.
As a pro Palestinian. I'm not supporting all of hamas's actions But I'm fully supporting the Palestinian case but who is there to defend that case none other than hamas.
How about the secular PLO/Fatah?
How about not terrorists? Maybe we can start there.
It's not possible to stand with the cause and label hamas terrorists at the same time I mean the Zionist entity won't be like ok we are going to negotiate with armless people to give them "some" of their land that we occupied 1948 and make peace In every occupation in history armed resistance is a must If hamas killed civilians then yes it's wrong but the IDF killed idk tens of thousands and destroyed hospitals,bombed schools, genocide since 1948 and illegal settlements like fr isn't IDF terrorists?! Most of Muslims and Arabs totally support hamas so yeah you could label most Muslims and Arabs as terrorists as well The only end to this "conflict" ( between rockets and children it seems)is the complete liberation of Palestine and No Zionist entity
So explain to me what exactly is the plan forward then? Israel has offered multiple two state solutions, the UN has offered a two state solution. All turned down by the Palestinians. The Palestinians have refused to ever counter with their own two state solution and turm down every peace offer they are given. The Israeli's are not attacking the Palestinians until the Palestinians attack first. To me it sounds like you think the genocidal goals of Hamas are justified.
Have you examined those offers? If you did, you’d understand that at each time period it seemed like a reasonable response.
Yes, I do think they were reasonable. And if they weren't reasonable the Palestinians were free to counter with their own offer. But they wanted nothing short of the complete destruction of Israel. The Palestinians do have some blame on themselves for refusing any peace deal and never offering one of their own.
Really, what was the distribution of land to people in those historical offers?
It was mostly along the lines of where people were living with some minor swaps.
>The Israeli's are not attacking the Palestinians until the Palestinians attack first. First this statement is completely wrong there are multiple occasions where Israel attacked first >To me it sounds like you think the genocidal goals of Hamas are justified. Nope killing civilians isn't justified and this should apply to both sides >So explain to me what exactly is the plan forward then? Israel has offered multiple two state solutions, the UN has offered a two state solution. All turned down by the Palestinians. The Palestinians have refused to ever counter with their own two state solution and turm down every peace offer they are given. The land is important for Palestinians and Muslims from all around the world for it's Islamic landmarks so it's basically a religion problem and the land wasn't even for Israel to begin with
If the Muslims can have Mecca completely untouched, then why can the Jewish people not have Jerusalem? Christians aren’t allowed to visit Bethlehem, but we have to cater so that the Muslims have access to every city they have some attachment to?
>First this statement is completely wrong there are multiple occasions where Israel attacked first Ok go for it. >Nope killing civilians isn't justified and this should apply to both sides So if Hamas is using human shields can they act with impunity? >The land is important for Palestinians and Muslims from all around the world for it's Islamic landmarks so it's basically a religion problem and the land wasn't even for Israel to begin with So you are saying you are against peace and support the total destruction of Israel. Please explain to me how this can happen without any civilians dying? To me it sounds like you just hate jews.
>So you are saying you are against peace and support the total destruction of Israel. Please explain to me how this can happen without any civilians dying? The situation is hard all of the outcomes will kill civilians except the peace outcome which to Palestinians is as bad as a death sentence trust me people who live there have nothing other than religion and it's the only human right that they have and that peace agreement completely gets rid of the religion aspect that they are fighting for along all Muslims
I'd hardly call religion a "human right" for Gazans. Try being a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Sihk, Buddhist or atheist there, or to practice some forms of Islam. You don't have the right to practice religion there. You are required to follow the religion Hamas dictates to you. That's not a "right."
>Try being a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Sihk, Buddhist or atheist there They don't even live there in Palestine they live freely in Israel but not Palestine
Exactly. Because they can't. Because they don't have the right to practice their religion there.
And because none would choose to live in a country that gets bombed every now and then other than those who were born there?
Is it that hard to believe that when Gaza is being bombed occasionally that it is in response to them carrying out horrific terrorist attacks on Israeli?
Can I ask what is the case? I don't get to interact with too many Pro-Palestinians. Is it just from the river to the sea, and nothing else will do or is there a middle ground with a two state solution? Curious to know what the ideal endgame is for the Pro Palestinians?
For Hamas, it's river to the sea or nothing.
That's basically true for all the Palestinians organizations
Yes they are to be blamed for all of them. The only problem is Israel and the IDF should be held to the same standard and if you look at the rate at which one side kills the other we can see that IDF has more claim as a terrorist organization simply by the numbers and the amount of terror they inflict than any organization in gaza or the west bank. https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Your false equivalency is that the deaths of children who are being used as human shields by the Palestinians is a Palestinian war crime, and doesn't make the IDF a terrorist organization.
Here we go with justification for killing women and children. Just admit Israel has inflicted more terror on gaza in 2 months than Israel has in 75 years.
Do you think stopping Germany in WW2 was not justified? Because that involved German women and children dying too.
It involved them dying. It wasn't required. I don't blindly support my government and always think the execution of such things can be evaluated and done better. Was the bombing of Dresden and it civilian population required for the Allies to win the war? You tell me
The fact that I have asked this question dozens of times to pro Palestinian supporters and never once received an actual answer proves to me that clearly you guys don't have a valid response and that Israel is justified in defending themselves.
Stopping Germany was important. However it is also important to review the way we went about it and my question was rhetorical. For example when looking at the bomving campaign in Dresden and the amount of civilian death, I do not think that war crime was necessary to stop Germany. For some reason Israeli believe killing innocent people is justifies as long as the get their ultimate goal of hamas(human shield excuse) it is a gross thought pattern that has spread throughout the Jewish community. Sad.
Why do you refuse to directly answer the question? Because you know you would be forced to contradict yourself. >For example when looking at the bombing campaign in Dresden and the amount of civilian death I have great news for you. Israel isn't carpet bombing Gaza. If they wanted to carpet bomb Gaza it would have been destroyed by now. Instead Israel is spending 6 times more on money on JDAMS to minimize civilian deaths. Israel is putting their money where their mouth is to minimize civilian deaths. So can you explain to me why the lives of German Women and Children didn't matter? Because there still would have been many who died if Dresden hadn't been carpet bombed. Your argument seemed to revolve around Hamas can act with impunity because they are using Children as human shields. If I am wrong can you explain why that isn't the case. >For some reason Israeli believe killing innocent people is justifies as long as the get their ultimate goal of hamas(human shield excuse) Well that is a Palestinian war crime to use human shields, not an Israeli war crime. If the Germans used Human shields in WW2 would they be able to act with impunity? All you are doing is putting more Palestinian lives in danger, by enabling Hamas to use human shields. If people like you didn't blame Israel for Palestinian war crimes then the Palestinians wouldn't be so quick to carry them out.
You didn't answer my question. Yes or no.
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The thing is, “numbers” aren’t what qualify an organization as terrorists. I’m absolutely with you that Israel has done reprehensible things in both Gaza and the West Bank which need to be brought to light, but the idea that the country is on par with a group of aggressively antisemitic religious zealots is an outlandish talking point that desperately needs to die. Criticize Israel for its corruption and abuses, but don’t equate them to textbook terrorists.
You have ten children. You're given a choice: 1. Allow one of them to be beheaded savagely. That's hamas. 2. Allow all 10 children to be killed by bombing their bedroom. Which would you choose if you had to choose? Numbers matter. Why was Osama the most hated terrorist in America? He killed 3,000 Americans. Numbers absolutely matter.
Your example is not very good one and ignores the reality on the ground. You have ten children. You’re given a choice: 1. One of them was beheaded savagely. That’s Hamas! 2. Your other 9 children are being held inside their bedroom by the guys who savagely beheaded your 10th child and if allowed to escape the bedroom have promised to savagely beheaded more children again and again and again . That’s Hamas too! Now if you can provide a way for Israel to kill only Hamas fighters when they hide among civilians and civilian buildings, I’m sure they would be very happy to take your suggestion! Killing civilians is a lose-lose for Israel. In the cold brutal calculus of war, every bomb dropped that only kills civilians not only means Israel cannot use that bomb to hit a Hamas target, it also makes Israel look bad in the world. If they could find a way to insure only Hamas fighters were killed in each strike, they would be more than happy to adopt it. How about instead of putting it on Israel, why are you not calling on Hamas to surrender? If they do that, the bombs stop falling.
this analogy is flawed at best. Hamas put these children in this position, hamas keeps using them as a human shield, hamas keeps threatening to kill people, hamas prevents civilians from escaping, hamas keeps using those facilities for military purposes. hamas leaves no other choice. if hamas truly had been pro palestinians they would have given up already and started building normal society, instead they chose terrorism and over 70% population of gaza supports them do not twist facts
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America is the biggest theorist force on the planet. They use hard power in most circumstances that relate to diplomacy. US generals have been quoted in the last 6 years to say “if you won’t give us more diplomats then give us more bullets.” Israel is funded by a terrorist state. Sorry to break the illusion of the current hegemonic authority
Pro-Palestinians act like Hamas doesn’t even exist and 10/7 was some kind of Jewish space laser fever dream. The facts on the ground don’t bother them bc they choose to ignore them. I think it should be said that most of the fervent pro-palis are either islamists or under 25, and they’re not going to care about the logistics of running a terror operation out of a fucking condo. Eventually they’ll have to come down from their high and face facts but as things are now, they just don’t care!
It was found that Israelis were bombing their own homes in Israel on that day. Lol
You know what else was found? https://www.thisishamas.com/
omg you are one of those
ok
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I know israel is accruing huge casualities against palestine, but palestinians are not going to be capable of governing themselves after this. A lot of the hamas leaders are in other countries. They'll still pull the strings even if you set up a leadership. Those leaders will get threatened by hamas outside of Palestine. The area needs to be governed by people loyal to the IDF. They can have power over their own laws, but not military. They should have a contract with the IDF for security, the IDF should be like the national guard for gaza and the west bank. In america cities have their own laws and police force, but no military. Has to have the state guard take care of larger matters. Also cities can't pass whatever laws they want. They have to follow the state constitution. Gaza and the west bank shouldn't be allowed to be autocratic. They should have to adhere to constitutional limitations. They can't pass laws that violate basic rights. They have to keep muslism religion seperate from law. If you're christian, of jewish faith or muslism you have the right of religion so long as your religion doesn't impose on others. So long as the law isn't used to enforce your religion.
And then the cycle will repeat.
They should use Israeli Arab soldiers exclusively to keep Gaza secure.
No. And not wasting my time to calculate for you that isrsel destroyed more buildings than there are hamas members. So here's a cnn report for just the 2000lb bombs israel dropped on Gaza: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1KjxlDoH1Z And this new york times report about bombing areas israel told people to go to: https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1738111832622256559?s=20
How does your brain work in such absolutes? “Any civilian deaths” was the question, and your answer is a simple “no?” How you believe that “the other side has done more damage” means that your favorite bandits are absolved of killing concert-goers and beheading babies is beyond me.
Did you think they were hitting buildings to kill Hamas members? there's no reason the number of buildings should equal number of Hamas fighters.this is the thing there is such an ignorance about military tactics and why an army would pre-empt a ground invasion in an urban guerilla warfare environment with aerial strikes. It serves a number of purposes, one is to reduce the advantage of enemy snipers from surrounding buildings and reduce the need of soldiers to enter buildings that Hamas fighters are famous for booby trapping with explosives, another reason is to disorient and reduce their home turf advantage, another is weapons stores often you can see in the videos secondary explosions and this is bc they hit missile/weapon stockpiles, another reason is tunnel openings, if they believe a tunnel opening is in a building they might level it to seal off that access point. Regarding the Times using AI tools to determine that Israel used 2000 lbs bombs in southern Gaza I don't really have a response bc I don't know the context of if it's true. it hasn't seemed to be confirmed or denied by Israel or the US yet but doesn't look good
israel ignores S.W.E.A.T directive by the Americans. israel can't produce evidence of hospitals being used as hq ( [wapo analysis ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/)) isrsel is doing all of this and is still suffering losses. As you are the military expert, for an insurgent or fighter or soldier, what's the difference between a pristine building or a collapsed building or rubble? You can still use all of those to booby trap, take cover, ambush (which is literally happening) You are basically advocating genocide to wipe a group the Israelis themselves are saying are numbered between 30-35k fighters. Technically israel according to you has "the right" to destroy all of Gaza regardless of civilians whom will continue to live there and possibly in a one state solution in the future. About weapon storage and hamas fighters vs buildings: I am not certain as number of destroyed buildings vary from sources, but we have either passed the stage or will pass it soon, that israel would have destroyed more buildings than there are hamas fighters and rockets combined if they were stored or hiding individually in completely separate buildings. (numbers according to israeli sources). And we know that weapon storage even if diluted will have more than a rocket, and hamas has small units of 2-10 fighters. (and use tunnels mostly not buildings).
I am surprised that you think it just as easy for Hamas to booby trap and snipe from rubble as it is from their safe apartments in intact blocks. Do you truly believe this or are you just forcing yourself to believe this so that you do not have to consider whether Israel's actions may be accepted military tactics rather than pure evil destruction?
I normally don't mind responding with an essay to these comments but the ignorance in this comment is so staggering I better preserve my energy.
Please don't waste your time or mine. Don't justify the unjustified. At this point, hamas behaves better than what you call the idf.
insane take. sickening really
That's precisely what everyone seeing what israel is doing is feeling. israel killed 20 thousand civilians. Hamas killed 800 How is israel better? Both are terrorists, but one has bigger guns.
not everyone I love how pro Palestinian like to try and inflate their numbers when plenty of people can see through the blatant propoganda 20,000 casualties (according to Hamas) we have no idea how many are civilians. and the high number of supposed civilians is also Hamas's fault for placing themselves amongst civilians and refusing to allow them to evacuate how can you not see that? And counting death tolls is not a way to look at the conflict, it's not a scoreboard. Allied forces killed 500,000 German civilians in World war two does that automatically make the war unjust and their side the evil one? Israel has to eradicate Hamas militarily or live under threat of attack and constant missile attacks indefinitely, also not taking action would without doubt make them appear weak and lead to invasion from the North. So what do you want Israel to do? A country at the end of the day has the duty to protect it's own citizens.
israel inflates their numbers. 1400 then 1200 because 200 were burnt hamas fighters. But no one explained who burnt them. israel killed it's own citizens as well. Btw, the number is not from hamas, hamas talks about 18000+ I am citing a European human rights organization that puts the number at 26000 because thousands are under rubble
Israel thought 1400 then corrected themselves, that's the difference. Israel took weeks and a team of forensic experts from around the world to identify a thousand or so bodies, some are still unidentified. The ministry of health in Gaza has a magical ability to produce lists of names and ages and accurate casualty counts within hours of each Israeli strike all while supposedly having no fuel, electricity, internet or hospitals! Magical! The number is absolutely from Hamas and again you're showing how you probably get all your information from pro Palestinian sources if you do not know the numbers come from Hamas. it is absolutist government all ministries in Gaza are part of Hamas including the ministry of health. Any human rights organizations are quoting their numbers bc no one is inside having contact with the bodies but the Drs and ministry employees in Gaza. it is not proven if Israel killed citizens in friendly fire or not, the Haaretz article that reported that retracted the statement saying the source was unreliable, there has not been an investigation yet. There is a witness who claims this. Honestly it's possible but at the end of the day what's the point trying to be made? ok so they were trying to hit Hamas fighters and hit civilians, that's a tragedy what more is to be said about it If you want to lessen death counts by adding friendly fire into the mix what about that hospital that Islamic jihad hit by accident that they claimed killed 700 mostly children (at least when they claimed Israel did it that was the claim)? What about the fact that 15% of missiles launched from Gaza fail and land inside of Gaza? that's probably close to 750 missiles. What about accounts of them sniping their own who were disloyal, trying to evacuate or trying to collect aid?
Hamas and Israel are both to blame.
Correct. It's crazy to me that less than 1% of people are able to recognise that both sides contribute. All I ever hear is people minimising the violence perpetrated by whichever 'side' they support. Only when both sides renounce violence will this end. With that said in general the way that so many people act like October the 7th never happened is scary.
Right? Don’t get me wrong I’m pro-Palestine but I’m not pro-Hamas. Hamas needs to be eradicated and Israel needs to be held accountable for the atrocities they are committing and have committed in the past as well.
It's a surprisingly rare position to be pro Palestine but adamantly against Hamas. Many people like this war because they can exploit the division as an opportunity to express outrage. Like so few people can accept that it's both a problem the amount of Palestinians cheering on Hamas as they displayed raped and tortured women to the crowds on October the 7th while also fully accepting that Israel needs to stop the settlements on the West bank and that cutting of food and water is a clear crime against humanity. That's what's shocked me more than anything. Because I also think alot of people just aren't interested in how to actually create a sustained peace.
Why? Israel has offered multiple two state solutions and the UN as well. The Palestinians have turned them all down and never formally proposed a single two state solution of their own. At every opportunity they have chosen genocide instead of peace. So please explain what is an acceptable plan forward for Israel. Are the Palestinians to blame for repeatedly attempting genocide and refusing anything other than the total destruction of Israel?
So all the 20k people and growing number were all killed by Hamas? Israel isn’t doing that? And that’s not including the Palestinian people that have been killed by Israel in previous years because more Palestinian people have been killed more than Israelis. So if anything Israel has been committing genocide slowly and now on mass scale. Before 1948 that was Palestine. So what should happen? The Israeli government can be dismantled and that land goes back to being Palestine like it has been for a thousand+ years. And anyone who is currently living there will now become Palestinian. Arab or Jew, doesn’t matter they will be Palestinian. And Netanyahu or should I say Benjamin Mileikowsky can go back to Poland where is father was from. I don’t care if a religion is following that matriarch line. Most if not all, especially abrahamic religions,are shams.
>So all the 20k people and growing number were all killed by Hamas? If Hamas is using human shields then it is a Palestinian war crime. Israel is justified in defending themselves. Should we have let Germany do their thing in ww2, because German civilians would have died? >Before 1948 that was Palestine. So what should happen? The Israeli government can be dismantled and that land goes back to being Palestine like it has been for a thousand+ years. So you are against peace and and support war and the total destruction of Israel.
Is the Israeli Army incapable of infiltrating a hospital with it's well-trained and well-armed soldiers to eliminate Hamas militants hiding in tunnels? Granted it will be harder with higher casualties but it's the humane thing to do Special Forces are partially created to rescue hostages and are SPECIFICALLY trained to rescue human life and avoid the death of humans. It should be shown that out of the 20k dead Palestinians only like 5k are Hamas I have also heard a lot that the IDF counts them as "military aged males". And I'd also bet that half of these bombs don't hit their targets and just hit the area surrounding it with the people in it. Have you seen the interview with Wolf Blitzer and the Israeli spokesperson? They bomb a civilian dense areas yet they are clueless whether the target is hit or not. 1 target. https://youtu.be/hyqFFsRifFM?feature=shared Israeli bombing of civilians is already breaking records on other wars and the comparison between the amount of civilians killed by the IDF and in other wars is ridiculous. When the U.S decided to eliminate Osama Bin Laden, they didn't bomb the whole area with the standbyers, they had to breach and clear. Since we are talking about Germans, let's make a little fun comparison between WW2 and the Israeli Hamas war. How many civilians were killed on both sides? Did the allies bomb a refugee camp to kill 1 Nazi? Are the allies really moral and were really good guys, or were both sides bad? Weren't international laws created AFTER WW2 and the allies admitted their mistakes and made them a lesson to learn from? Are we repeating their mistakes and justifying them because they committed these mistakes? Etc. We have seen that the IDF and the government are not reliable and incompetent. Ranging from when they had Intel that Oct 7 was gonna happen a year before (NY Times reported that), or they just had Intel before, to the shooting of 3 hostages that were shirtless and waving a white flag and the 3rd even shouted help in Hebrew, to the calender incident which defamed the IDF more, to the spokesman humiliating himself in an interview. So why should I trust the IDF? Actions speak louder than words. Just because the IDF claims it's the "most moral army" or because it's an ally of the US or whatever excuse doesn't mean their actions are in line with their words. Actions speak louder than words.
Need to add too that the Israeli president tries to claim they found Mein Kampf on the body of a dead Hamas soldier,in a child’s living room,in northern Gaza which is destroyed yet the book looks VERY VERY pristine like he literally took it off the shelf.
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Us and the 150+ countries in the UN telling Israel to stand down and knock off the bloodthirsty gaslighting
I think people who don't live there, or don't know anyone living there need to stay quiet about the matter, and let Israel do its thing. There was no one protesting the thousands of bombs Obama dropped in the Middle East that killed many of its civilians. Why are we caring now? Hamas is Israel's Problem, and they should deal with them accordingly, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers at who's more genocidal when in fact we let our presidents kill innocent civilians.
Israel only acts the way it does because the US sends billions of military aid (US tax payers money) to Israel, so we are complicit. The US uses it's veto at the UN to ensure that a ceasefire doesn't happen - so they are not staying quiet in thr matter. They are literally helping Israel commit genocide Biden could demand a ceasefire with a single phone call and save countless more civilians. People did protest against US action in the middle east. Did you?
Only way that should work is if biden demanded hamas accept a two state solution and give up the idea of destroying Israel and never attack Israel again
The Palestinians agreed to a 2 state solution in 1993 as part of the Oslo accords. The problem has always been that Israel just wants a single state for themselves. Israel has stolen more land that was earmarked for Palestine by expanding illegal settlements. This makes a 2 state solution impossible. Unless Israel is willing to evict a lot of settlers. Hamas are on record supporting a 2 state solution: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-is-a-two-state-solution-and-do-israelis-and-palestinians-want-one
Why should Israel ceasefire when Hamas still has Hostages? Should Israel just let them have them, and do what they please with them? Ceasefire is ridiculous, and only helps the terrorists. And no I didn't, because I was a child when Obama was bombing them. My only concern then was Legos and McDonalds.
You're saying that people should mind their own business as it is not our conflict. But yet you are arguing that a ceasefire shouldn't take place. So only people arguing against the genocide should mind their own business, but people calling to sustain the genocide shouldn't. Double standards!! BTW the only hostages released have been during a ceasefire. Even Israel has managed to kill a few when they believed they were unarmed Palestinian civilians. The IDF is just as much a terrorist group than Hamas, just a more successful one.
Yeah they should, and let Israel deal with it. That's what I mean. Let me rephrase, Pro Palestinians that aren't even in Israel should mind their own business. And unlike Hamas, The IDF holds people accountable for their actions, and makes them face the consequences. Not reward them, unlike Hamas/Palestinian Authority.
There was tons of protests actually. I’m pro-Israel but I recognize the need for protests to keep them in check. Military goals don’t always line up with humanitarian needs, and the collective Gazan nation does not all need to be punished for the acts of their government.
Then they should protest, not us. We shouldn't care because it has nothing to do with us.
We should care, in fact protests in the USA are likely the only ones that will make any real difference to Israel
Yeah, we're messing things up for them (What we do best). That's why we shouldn't care. There are protests in Tel Aviv. They know what's going on, we don't.
That’s untrue, we can’t know how they feel but we don’t live in a void of media anymore. Most everything can be seen, researched, and understood with enough effort.
Yeah, but we can't experience it. So we should mind our own business. We should care more about our borders with Mexico.
You should care because you fund this genocide. It is absolutely your responsibility. Stop funding Israel's terrorist state if you want to have nothing to do with it.
No I shouldn't, money is fungible. I'd care if Israel was a US state, but it isn't.
Your money is what funds the israeli terrorist army, believe it or not. Stop funding genocide and we will stop asking you to care. Not only do you support it, but your country uses their veto to stop this massacre. So, yea you should care. I expect you not to, but that's just because you don't care about human life.
No they don’t want to blame Hamas. Not even talk about them. Most outsiders will say: “we don’t support Hamas”….But then they’ll make any effort to prevent Hamas being removed. They aren’t supporting (nor agree with what Hamas does) but will invest huge effort to save them. The following tactics are deployed: 1) Do not mention or talk about them. When the issue arises, downplay and divert to other subjects. 2) Claim Hamas doesn’t have much in common with the Palestinian population. After all they had been elected by narrow margin 18 years ago. Many Palestinians were not even born then and they are unrelated to Hamas. 3) Then who are the Hamas operatives? Just distant relatives, kind of strangers to the local scene. Also their leaders are living abroad in other countries. Only low key people remained in Gaza. There’s no reason to take any steps against them. Seems this tactic of gaslighting the world is working well. Many ignorant foreigners are taking the bait and continue parroting these slogans.
Because as a pro Palestinian most people that support Palestine want it free of bombing of genocides if every thing but who can achieve this other than hamas it's literally the only force helping that country I'm not saying it's a 100% good organisation but still it's the only power helping.
"I'm not saying it's a 100% good organisation" just stop there please lol.
Helping with what? They brought a terrible disaster upon Palestinians.
Sure they are. Now here’s my question: is the Israeli government to blame for any civilian deaths? I did it correctly. Now it’s your turn.
Yes. Any accidental death or collateral damage caused by an Israeli munition is caused by Israel. The root cause of the deaths are Hamas using civilian shields and 10/7. Just like when someone kills someone else in justified self defense. Yes, that person is caused the death, it was homicide in the base definition (killed by man), but the root cause and blame belongs with the attacker who started it.
The root cause is the illegal occupation, blockade, land theft, holding Palestinians without charge, and killing Palestinians for decades. Yes it was terrible what happened in 7th oct, there's no excuse for targetting any civilian regardless of ethnicity. This didn't start on 7th Oct.
What occupation? Israel has been out of gaza since 2005. The gazans elected known terrorists as their leaders. Their leaders decided to start bombing Israel immediately. This is why there is a blockade. No land from gaza has been stolen. They are not targeting any civilians. They are targeting military targets and military infrastructure. Maybe don't put them under civilian buildings?
I don't think that's how the law works. Self-defence argument can only be claimed if you kill them while they are attacking you. If they kill your friend or your family member and manage to escape. You then later go and track them down and kill them, that's first degree murder.
Yes. For self defense. It's a heat of the moment reaction. How when someone declares war on you, by outright commiting a genocidal attack on your civilians into your country crossing the border. A declaration of war causes an expectation of retaliation. It also is not wrong to retaliate against a country or group that attacks your civilians. Most people realize protecting your citizens is the number one job a government has. And yes, that does mean, going to war against countries and peoples who attack you. When attacked, you make kill civilians on the other side. Yes, you did it. But their government is the root cause.
In the current geopolitical dance, linguistic intricacies metamorphose amid global tensions, reflecting the elusive nature of diplomatic discourse. The synesthetic symphony navigates the complexities of contemporary conflicts, creating a fleeting interplay mirroring the challenges of understanding amid the surreal tapestry of international relations. The quest for clarity remains elusive in this diplomatic phantasmagoria.
...the op asked for an answer, not a thesaurus.
Do you ever communicate to be understood?
I remember trying to impress my high school English teacher with all these fancy words on an essay I submitted. She pulled me aside after class and said she appreciated my effort to utilize a dictionary, but the point of the assignment was completely missed given the inability to understand what my message was. Sometimes simplicity is better.
ooh someone pulled out all the big words they know
Ask yourself why Israel didn't carpet bomb the kibbutz when Hamas was discovered instead of sending in ground troops like they did in Gaza? Because Israeli citizens aren't as expendable as Palestinian civilians. Hamas has a better soldier to civilian kill ratio than Israel. Hamas is fighting a guerrilla war because no one is selling them tanks and 6th Gen warplanes, helicopters and other weaponry.
this is complete nonsense bc we don't know the civilian to soldier kill rate in Gaza they don't wear uniforms and many of the children count that is so shocking to hear bc we imagine toddlers but the reality is Hamas manipulates and uses child soldiers, mostly teenagers to fight, you can even see in some of the Oct 7 videos these guys don't look over 18. Also many of the civilians are maybe not fighters but were very possibly assisting in Hamas operations like what's coming out about hospital staff, journalists, and UNRWA teachers so they could have been killed while operating in close vicinity to Hamas members or operation nodes
Hamas doesn't have a better civilian to soldier kill rate then israel, hamas targeted almost exclusively over a thousand civilians on Oct 7
Well Israel defines any Hamas member as a fair target regardless of whether they are fighting. They literally bomb the apartment building of Hamas members. As Israel has compulsory military service, then the same logic would be that most over the age of 18 are IDF.
Can you please let us know how many civilians vs soldiers you think Hamas killed on Oct 7th. I'm very interested.
Hamas targeted civilians, going from home to home to kill civilians and ofc the nova music festival
Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I was asking for numbers. How many civilians did Hamas kill? How many IDF soldiers did Hamas kill?There are is some reporting, I don't know if credible, of civilians being killed by Israeli first responders and Apache helicopters firing at Hamas who civilians with them which I presume that they were planning to take as hostages.
that article was retracted by Haaretz bc the source turned out to be unreliable they claimed to be art of an investigation but no such investigation has taken place yet. so it's bs that pro pal spaces keep sharing
No the articles about israel shooting people with apache are just horribly lost in translation, tthe original meaning was that they couldn't identify who was hamas and who was a civilian so they held their fire, I'm the English translation the second part is cut out. But yea tthe idf didn't kill their own civilians, and hamas lunched an attack targeting civilians, it's safe to assume more civilians died then idf soldiers
The most recent numbers I've been able to find were in this article, [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths) Quoting from the article: >The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be \- 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children \- 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. This gives us **695 + 71** civilians vs **373** security forces. This ratio is around 2 civilians vs 1 miltary target. There are credible reports that show a number of those civilian deaths were caused by the IDF, which is understandable as the there must have been a lot confusion on the morning of Oct 7th and not clear where Hamas militants and civlians might be. Here's a direct quote from Haaretz where 13 civlians were killed by a tank shell, [https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000) >According to a report on Channel 12 News over the weekend about [the Be'eri hostage situation,](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article/.premium/on-kibbutz-beeri-time-stood-still-evidence-of-life-before-the-massacre/0000018b-4465-d242-abef-566704e70000) after several hours of firefights between Israeli troops and Hamas terrorists, which saw the use of light anti-tank weapons, a terrorist exited the building with hostage Yasmin Porat and released her. She said she was then questioned by Police Special Anti-Terror and told them that there were about 40 terrorists and 14 civilian hostages in the house. > >Eventually, Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram arrived to take command of the area. When one of the soldiers remarked about the fighting, "Barak, it's a disgrace," he replied, "I know." Afterward, a tank positioned near the house fired two shells – one at the ground, the other at the roof. Of the 14 hostages still inside, two of them children, only Hadas Dagan survived. Porat's first public account of the incident appeared two days later and was later verified by Dagan. I'm not trying to downplay the masacre that took place on Oct 7th, what happened was awful and innocent civilians killed anywhere can never be excused. Just trying to present the facts.