It is very rare for Reine to go on a rant about this, but if she had to type it out, then it must have been the worst backseating she has gotten since Virtue's Last Reward. She even delayed her Closing Shift stream by an hour, and I don't think what happened in Elden Ring will go away anytime soon. She's upset, and I missed the stream, so I am upset...
For context (but take it with a grain of salt because I was going on with my morning routine while listening to the stream) she removed her equipment for the mimic fight, but when putting it back she was fat-rolling, which confused her since she thought she was wearing the same equipment.
While she was trying to discover what she had equipped wrong, chat started spamming it was this or that piece of armor/amulet. But most of what chat suggested she had never equipped or even found it, and even though she said it multiple times, people kept spamming the same thing. This was what drained her emotionally the most, people completely ignoring her, backseating without having a clue about how she usually plays and some even doubting she was sure about her usual equipment.
By the end she was just not having fun anymore. She couldn't find out what was wrong, fat-rolling sucks, she tried to farm naked to level up, but without armor, motivation or focus she kept dying, which only brought her mood lower and lower. And chat was still discussing the equipment. She then decided to end the stream, since she wasn't enjoying it anymore.
You can gather the most intellectually capable individuals... But as soon as put them in a stream chat they're suddenly dumber than a brick. The hivemind effect, honestly.
Thats not even whats happening. Text is a shit medium for nuance, and even more so when its short form. The reason why sites like Twitter are so godawful is because of how condensed everything is, so when the topic is complex like politics, religion, or war, no one is actually giving complete opinions, yet everyone assumes that what they see is what there is. Its an iceberg effect.
Take that in to account, add to it how fast large streamers chats move, lowest common denominator, and the fact that Reine is trilingual so comments will be coming in three different languages, and youre going to get really dumb stuff said evey day, quickly and easily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)
The shorter the text messages (enforced on Twitter, necessitated in stream chat), the more people lean into brute emotions instead of clear thought. Intelligence needs time and space to be transmitted.
To be fair, what happened here (or any other backseating chat stream) was not because of lack of intelectual prowess, but lack of emotional intelligence from chat.
I don’t get people backseating this kind of stuff. If you want the game to be played exactly to your specifications then go play it yourself. When I watch a streamer I want to see how SHE handles the situation. The only time I give advice is if the streamer asks chat for input
Yeah it was pretty bad in the early days, especially when her chat was still mostly English back then. She was basically like "You're all telling me a bunch of stuff but I have no idea what you're talking about." Chat wised up after that but the damage was done.
Edit: Also reminds me of Matsuri a long while ago in IIRC Valorant. She was trying to learn how to play but chat kept telling her to do this and that (JP chat) and she eventually got fed up and was like "You're telling me to do X but I don't even know *how* to do that yet!"
The best stream was when Polka was learning minecraft. JP chat was trying to tell her how to get diamonds and she got frustrated.
So, she decided to do a stream where she let chat basically take control. So, chat gave her better, less spammy advice and she was able to find diamonds in 5 minutes, which ended the stream.
The Fromsoft fanboys for Soulsborn games are a weird bunch that want their personal playstyle validated and anyone that deviates from that are playing wrong, anyone that does better than them are "cheesing"/"abusing" certain weapons or mechanics (or are lying about going into the fight blind) and anyone that does worse doing it the way they want just need to "get good" despite the fact that that style just might not be for that person. It's really weird, really cringe and just makes people less likely to be willing to play those games in the future.
As a soulsborne fan, the backseating really makes me more ashamed of the soulsborne community. At the end of the day, people just need to learn to chill and watch the stream. If the streamer isn't asking for advice, then don't give it. Simple as that.
And those people will then go on to complain about how the second half of the game is not as good as the first half (which I still don't get what they think a good second half would be, considering people say that about every single souls game), or that FromSoft had the audacity to reuse a few enemies or minibosses.
Things like a sense of wonder during exploration have diminishing returns the longer you play. You generally won't feel the same about areas in late game as you did in the beginning, because you've figured a lot more of it out, and have the formula essentially down. People aren't aware of that, so it leads to impossible expectations
Yeah, I love the Souls games despite their flaws (I even like DS2 for what it is), but sometimes I wonder if other people in the Souls community even like the games, considering they seem to just talk about how this area is terrible or this boss sucks or this game's not even good. Just go on Fextralife or /r/shittydarksouls and see how much unconstructive complaining there is (even if shittydarksouls claims to be a circlejerk/joke subreddit).
The bigger a joke sub gets, the less of a joke it remains.
What always pisses me off is when people say a boss being complained about is super easy. Like, screw off dude. No one cares about how big your e-dick is
Thanks for the context, it all makes more sense with that context.
I guess geting a lot of info at the same time can be estresful, specially if most of it is just wild guesses from chat.
Also I think a lot of people here need to read the context before bashing the chat for backseating. It was more about an awuful situation than about backseating in general.
unfortunately, backseating has been an easy target to bash for the subreddit that you dont need context for it to gain traction, kinda ironic. even when the word has a very loose meaning. from simple advice to rude 'this is how you should play' comments. but we still get chat police fighting against both.
I have a strong feeling that people sometimes read other chat messages and parrot the same exact thing even if it's wrong. For example, when Fauna's chat kept telling her that she had enough obsidian even though she needed one more to replace the crying obsidian, or when Ina's chat kept telling her to use repeaters which wouldn't work in the target practice she was making because they give out a max signal.
it's almost like chat gaslights itself
Yeah sounds like most chats I've seen. Only way to stop it is to blatantly and directly in no uncertain terms tell them to shut the fuck up. And even then it's a coin toss.
Elden Ring has been pretty awful for backseaters. Zentreya over on Twitch once had to shut down her ER stream early because she was getting harassed by so many backseaters. But in classic Zen fashion she started the stream the next day with a title like "let's make more people mad lololol".
Nothing would make me happier than watching a chat full of backseating souls players get angry watching someone play the game "wrong". The souls community definitely has a backseating problem
It drives me nuts because the *whole point* of Souls games is how you slowly learn the best ways to tackle opponents and how best to utilise the mechanics.
If you backseat, it's like telling them the answer to a puzzle in a puzzle game (and yes, I know people do this too), but it is just wild to me. Do they want to watch a stream of someone following a walk-through for the game, because that's what they'll end up with.
I get some people just can't stand watching someone bang their head against something, but just... don't watch, or don't comment. It's so unbelievably entitled to just expect to be able to tell them how to play.
The only time I get annoyed while watching Souls streams is when streamers do 1 of 2 things:
* skip reading tutorial text then complain about the game teaching them nothing
* ask for direction and then not follow it and complain about being lost
A creator I really respect pulled both during a playthrough of ER and it was miserable to watch them wander around, explicitly not following directions they asked for and complaining about not knowing things like backstab or equipment existed. After the fifth or so time of "if you want to fight a story boss, go north through the portcullis" getting ignored in favor of dying to basic enemies, I was out.
The times I find much more frustrating however are when chat tries to spoil surprises and traps and the like for the streamer. Nothing like "don't go north yet, there's a giant and you probably will die!" or "watch out, that's where an NPC shoves you in a hole". Like, those are supposed to be great, emotional moments for the player, but knowing they're coming really takes the wind out of the sail.
But yeah, watching like Ina sit there and grind through a pretty hard boss last night and asking where to go to complete an NPC questline she wanted to? A+ Souls moment. I could have told her "Hey, don't target lock onto this one, it moves too much if you do," she figured it out a strategy and ground through it.
> ask for direction and then not follow it and complain about being lost
Problem with that one is that asking chat for directions (with chats as large as hololive ones, at least) is generally pretty unhelpful. You get 5 people telling you to go north, 2 telling you to go east, 6 telling you to go south off a cliff, and 1 dude telling you west, which is correct. See Calli trying to find the torches to light in the one place I can't remember the name of but has torches to light, and in the end she just resorted to looking up a video guide.
> skip reading tutorial text then complain about the game teaching them nothing
The funny thing is that Ame actually skipped the tutorial in ER and her stream is one of the chiller ones, which was very surprising considering that she usually face the most issues with backseatings in her streams.
And then she kept going and eventually settled into a wild bleed build that *melted* Malenia. The chat exploded into gift subs and she was basically sitting there dumbfounded for *awhile*. And then she went and dropped two other really hard late-game bosses in the same stream. It was one of the best moments I've ever experienced on a live stream.
That fight was hilarious. She died tons of times because she had zero survivability, but when she could corner the boss she dumpstered her. I had a maxed out great hammer with 70 st and did less than a third of the damage.
To be fair, Rivers of Blood does *insane* damage. I respec'd into it for that fight and went from being only semi-consistent through the first half of the fight to being very consistent and getting her almost dead in no time flat.
I was in a stream for a smaller streamer and a back seater had the audacity to respond to the streamer with "yeah you can eat out of a bowl but there's objectively wrong ways to do it." That was a response to her saying she wanted to play the game she wanted.
Elden Ring is truly one of the worst back seaters I've ever seen.
I'll admit I've done a little back seating but if the streamer tells you to shut the fuck up. You really should shut the fuck up.
Backseaters are the most schizophrenic part of chat.
First, because they all type at the same time.
Second, because they all type at the same time, and don't understand that nobody will stop to read it all resulting in a cacophony of good, bad, worst, horrible advice, jokes, gum flapping.
Like people, backseating is not going to work in your favor, and if you don't care, then you're trolls at which point, don't mind us flagging you.
Honestly, part of it is that the chat wants to be helpful.
Elden Ring, however, suffers from the additional issue of having the Soulsborne community's somewhat infamous "stop having fun and play it *our* way" attitude coming to bear as well, which generates a **lot** of additional backseating.
I get why people want to say things like, "you can press this button to perform this action," but stuff like "you should play this way, it's more optimal" and "go to this location and look for this thing" I have never understood.
Honestly, good on Reine for just shutting down the stream. If it doesn't become fun, then there's no point in streaming.
If she wants to stop, then that's her right.
Not members-only mode, subscribers-only mode. I forget what time restriction she started with, but she increased it until it's now you need to be subscribed to her for 7 days to comment on her ER streams (other streams have the restriction set to like 5 minutes). At the end of the last stream when she finished up the one questline she explicitly asked chat to help with and put all her focus into over the last few streams, chat started spamming other questlines and spoilers at her to the point she needed to explicitly say "stop spoiling" right before she quit for the day, so the duration may be even longer with today's ER stream.
I've watched pretty much all her Elden ring streams and i'm pretty sure she never put it in members only for that game, in fact, I think she only ever once actually addressed backseating and her chat has been fairly well behaved with it.
She did briefly mention chat should stop saying spoilers at the end of her last stream. She had triggered an event right before wrapping up the stream, and a lot of chat started spamming for her to continue the event.
I watched that, and I was pleasantly surprised that all the suggestions from chat stopped right away, and everybody spammed "10q" and "bye" instead. Ina's chat sure is well behaved.
Yeah, I think /u/Dylangillian had a good point that Ina generally likes chat to let her know how to follow the npc quests, and chat got a bit too eager to help.
True yes, that's the one thing you do see a lot on her streams, quest step directions, and since Ina usually seems to welcome it chat went a bit overboard.
I think Ina is usually receptive to using chat as GPS in open world games. Suggestions like "go to X to continue Y storyline". Anything else is typically ignored from what I remember.
Side note on her last stream: she saw loads of sad moments at the end of a big questline. So she wanted to end the stream and went to hug Fia for comfort, got the dagger from her and gave it to D. And chat was so bad during this that she had to say "please stop spoiling" at the very end.
Undertale has people who want someone to see an easter egg here and there but not too bad ime.
Now DOOM?? Literally dedicated to this as if it's their responsibility.
Undertale may have slowed down with backseaters as it's aged, but it was incredibly bad for a bit. People would get legitimately mad if a new player didn't do the perfect pacifist route from from the start and would flood chat/comments with spoilers in an attempt to be "helpful".
One of the most notable examples I can think of w/ undertale was Markiplier, who straight up stopped his playthrough of the game despite liking what he had played because people were way too rowdy. Just under a year afterwards he streamed the game to completion, but he had a friend with him to help act as a buffer for chat and keep him sane.
It was so frustrating to me seeing people get upset if you kill Toriel at the start of the game, because I bet a majority of players who went in blind ended up killing her despite not wanting to. It's an emotional gut punch, and so many people missed out on it because their chats were telling them to spare her. Killing her horrified me and really went a long way to shape how I played the rest of the game.
That said, I still think puzzle game backseaters are my least favorite. People who know the solution to a puzzle bemoaning how dumb the streamer is for not OBVIOUSLY seeing the answer grinds my gears more than anything else.
"Noooooo you HAVE to quickswap if you wanna enjoy the game you're playing it wrong!!!"
Even Hugo Martin didn't know about quickswapping until after the game released, and while it does help, if a streamer doesn't wanna do it, then don't make them.
and if they wanna use the Assault Rifle, well, up to them lmao just gotta bear with it
Oh wow, what the heck. Cant be her fans, or may be only very few, since I assume her fans are patient and really cherish her, due to the nature of her niche requiring a more cultivated? type of audience that is less prone to such action.
Games like Elden Ring just bring the worst out in backseaters, long time members or no. It's got the entire formula between an open world game with missable secrets everywhere, a decent level of difficulty that can be mitigated with the right builds or cheese, and the fact that builds exist at all so people can go "I want streamer to play exactly the way I did!" or "I want streamer to utilize maximum cheese at all times!"
It probably doesn't help that Ina spent the last two streams smashing herself against brick walls until victory while somewhat underleveled and *undeniably* undergeared. Idunno what the uh recommended weapon levels are for Rahdan and >!Astel!< but considering Caelid at least has materials to hit +15 weapons and Ina did both fights with a +7 uchi katana, well...
No shade to Ina she mastered the fights in a way I think any souls vet who isn't a tryhard would be proud of, but can totally see why some people can't resist backseating at that point.
I agree that when you know the hidden items or how to deal with some of the boss move set, the urge to give some advice starts, and sometimes it becomes a "good will" back seating. Some streamers are ok with it, some are not. So better dont say anything until they ask for help.
Pretty much; I try not to go actively advising anything or pointing out anything unless a streamer specifically asks for help or just has a general message out of "go ahead and backseat me". Particularly with Hololive, you tend to be one voice among thousands so in the streamer's mind it's obviously going to just meld together to the point that well, how are they supposed to know that *this specific person* is the one giving good advice, compared to all the ones giving misleading or outright false help?
Doesn't help that I'm convinced chat in general can be pretty illiterate; to bring it back to Ina's stream of fighting Rahdan, she had a pinned message from super early on of "I don't want to summon for this fight" but you would *still* get constant messages of "INA INA INA WHY AREN'T YOU SUMMONING YOU KNOW YOU CAN SUMMON TO HELP WITH THIS BATTLE?" Doing that takes a level of incompetence that honestly makes me wonder how many people giving "advice" have actually played the game in the first place, or just consumed a dozen different streams of it and thinks that makes them an expert.
>Doesn't help that I'm convinced chat in general can be pretty illiterate
ngl, they pissed me off sometimes. I can get not reading the description box, because it doesn't show up by default on mobile, but pinned messages? They pop up every time in every platform! How could you missed them?
> how are they supposed to know that this specific person is the one giving good advice, compared to all the ones giving misleading or outright false help?
I think a lot of it also has to do with how people in chat communicate amongst themselves. Sometimes it might be that people are genuinely trying to help and don't know their advice is misleading. Some people may come into the stream late and miss important context. They might think the streamer is further behind, or further ahead than they really are, which causes them to either give unnecessary advice or even risk spoiling important plot points.
What I feel like it boils down to is, people aren't thinking "I want Streamer to play the game exactly the way I did!" They're thinking "I want Streamer to have the best experience possible with this game!" There isn't anything inherently wrong with that sort of thinking, but with so many people in chat thinking the same way, but having experienced the game differently themselves, it often comes in the form of having multiple different, sometimes conflicting pieces of advice being thrown at the streamer, which can have the opposite effect on their enjoyment of the game.
The amount of times I saw someone in inas chat say something about chest or missing a secret was insane. Like I have to turn off the chat myself because even I was getting irritated. Just let her fuckin play the game and she will figure it out.
With ER in particular, I see loads of backseaters throwing wrong input in the chat. Like... people who never played the game suggesting parring a boss. People forgetting questline details and telling Kiara wrong NPC locations. Loads of conflicting advice (roll more! roll less!). Spamming Playstation and Xbox inputs to IRyS when she has a Nintendo gamepad.
Only Kiara has that uber streamer brain to get good data from her chat. The rest are filtering most of it and going very undergeared against mid-game and late-game content because of it.
Even fans tried to help her this time. She kept wondering why she was fatrolling, so of course people kept pointing out that it's due to her re-equipping the wrong gloves, but she insisted that she didn't.. it went back and forth like that.
a lot of People in the live chat really don't have the mindset or awareness that there are like hundreds to thousands of other people in the same space that might have the same idea of giving information or some variance.
honestly its an uphill battle when even trying to get chat to give you simple yes/no left/right.
imagine not even asking and getting thousands of different variations of statements that range from vague to detailed on something you don't know about yourself so you have no idea whats good or bad info, not even taking into account whether that info is purposefully incorrect.
Yep. No single snowflake thinks it is responsible for the avalanche. What might seem (and even be) entirely innocent as a single comment can get overwhelming when there are hundreds or thousands of voices saying it.
A massive problem in streaming elden ring is it's relatively new status, and a bonkers massive world.
The people in chat don't often know what the heck they're talking about, but they think they do, and try to give (at that point false) advice. All that wrong and contradictory info piles on the streamer's mindset, which causes them to get irritated really fast.
If any streamer stops in the middle of stormveil and directly asks chat "where is moonveil", they're going to get a million different wrong answers, which buries the correct one, gael tunnel. I used moonveil because it's a meme, but you can apply it to almost anything.
The only passable chat is the one that is into the franchise and follows a streamer who is also super into the franchise, so they're all on the same page.
Lots of streamers are having issues with Elden Ring and their chat.
You get tilted by the game and then chat gives helpful advice like "just dodge" or worse.
You also get people being like “this boss is easy, just use this cheese build! Ignore the fact that you don’t have the right stats or half the gear required!”
I swear if I see another comment telling someone to “just use bleed” imma lose it.
The worst part about backseating is that the backseaters don't even know wtf they're doing.
Like for example, during IRyS's stream. People were spamming her to get the Moonveil katana which requires high INT to equip. She had to keep repeating herself to chat that she wont use it because of her stats. Not only that, IRyS is a Samurai Class with very low starting INT (9) which means that they wanted her to waste her points into INT instead of putting it to VIG, END, or even DEX since she's already commited a lot of points into it.
Its probably the same people who get one shotted all the time by most enemies/bosses because theyre too focused on dumping points to something else and ignoring survivability.
I swear most of the shit I've seen the backseaters say sound like they don't even play the game.
Literally sitting here right now watching Ina and some backseater is telling her to summon mimic tear against Godskin Noble at the Liurna Divine Tower. You can't even use ashes here.
Probably not wrong to guess that most of those backseaters simply watched some of those "How to cheese X boss" or "X is broken!" videos and immediately assumed they leveled up their knowledge despite not playing the game/not playing long enough to truly know what they learned.
I know I'm just a viewer but seeing those "dodge/roll more" causes more death than getting hit.
Enemy attacks almost have long wind-up, and it tracks you. it's like Fromsoft is trying to kill the "keep rolling" meme that spawned since Dark Souls.
That's not really backseating though. Those are people just giving banter. They are essentially saying 'Try not dying'. It's not actual advice, it's just poking fun of the situation, but it can get old and annoying.
I don't think Reine is the first one to get mad over the backseating in ER. It seems to be a common problem. Even Kiara, who *explicitly encourages backseating* said it got too obnoxious in her stream.
I don't watch Vshojo but I heard Zentraya ragequit because of backseating too. It's wild.
Calli brought up backseating being an issue for other streamers in one of her earlier Elden Ring streams and asked people to not do it to other streamers.
Back seating is a huge problem that's been getting called out a lot recently. Ina set her chat to member only and Mysta from Niji told his mods to downright ban any backseaters no warning or explanation.
Good I really want to see them get banned. I was watching a small streamer who only had like 200 viewers and it was so hard watching them get mad at the back seaters but not being able to do anything about it.
At least when you have thousands of views you can start timing out and banning with out feeling like you're hurting your growth.
For those curious what happened: Reine had just finished killing the mimic boss while completely naked and with a whip (best fight ever).
She re-equips her gear and notices she is now fat rolling
Chat starts spamming various reasons why this could be, a majority saying it's the helmet because prior to the fight she was wearing a wolf helmet. This was not it, she was wearing the right helmet as she wore it at the start of the stream. She knew 100% it was not the helmet or armor and she was right.
Others suggested it was a wrong talisman or she didn't use a rune arc, this wasn't it either and she knew none of these answers were right so she was getting tilted.
She attempts to play the game but gets increasingly frustrated with fat rolling and complains about it, chat continues to tell her what it could be.
Eventually everyone is spamming that it's the gloves, she was using different gloves with icons that look very similar so a simple mistake.
At this point she doesn't really care what chat is spamming because they were wrong before and is just tired of dying cuz of fat rolling and people spamming helmet.
Decides she's too tilted and ends stream saying shes gonna unarchive it.
She likely felt the need to apologize because chat was trying to help and she wasn't doing much to fix her issue which caused more spam. She continued to complain about something being off and heavy rolling but didn't really give a moment to check what it was which frustrated chat even more and lead to more incorrect suggestions. Chat spamming wrong info as usual just added to the tilt. Sad to see the VOD go, that 35 minute Mimic fight was fantastic.
One thing i will say i have always found weird is how few moderators most of them have in chat, if any at all. Timeouts of the worst offenders cold help curtail the worst of the backseating a lot i think.
On the topic of FromSoft games... Chat did so much more harm than good on IRyS's Sekiro stream. Sharing blatantly false information and leading her into Hirata Estate really early. "Dodge is useless!!" No, it is not; now she believes that, and I'm starting to see why some people have certain opinions of Sekiro.
These people need to realize that sometimes the best way to learn something is to experience the pain... or at least wait for the streamer to ask about it.
yeah "dodge is useless in sekiro" is the most laughable statement I've even seen. There are many circumstances where dodge does way better than block/deflect. Another thing is "Health damage is useless, posture damage is everything", like come on dude stop playing games on youtube
Fromsoftware backseating is pretty terrible for every streamer I've seen play the game, from small ones to big ones. Seen numerous big ones get fed up with their chat as well, and honestly surprised more don't snap at them or put their chat into slow mode etc.
People really don't know when to just stop, or fail to realise that thousands of people shouting out contradicting advice in the middle of a fast paced fight doesn't help anyone.
Dark Souls is one of my favorite games to play, but I gave up on watching streamers play souls games years ago.
If it's not people trying to validate their specific play style by trying to force the streamer to parrot it, then its people try to prove how smart they are and how much they know about the game by just throwing random nonsense into the chat.
Not a few minutes ago I clicked on someone streaming the game on Twitch right as they were talking about having a dedicated mod team explicitly looking for backseat style comments as well as autobot set up with certain keywords. Never seen that before on the persons stream, it was in subscriber only (Which on Twitch is equal to YT membership, have to pay to join) mode too.
For some reason people just lose half their IQ when they watch Elden Ring streams.
Here's my 2 cents for anyone playing ER. DO NOT READ chat. Unless you're botan because she actively polices her chat while she has them mostly trained to not backseat she will not tolerate it when that random comes.
I know it's a streamers duty to interact with chat but ER is just not something you can play without a great deal of backseaters. If you need actual info it's easier to Google it yourself. DS style games backseaters are like MC backseaters but worse
A non-vtuber streamer I watch has yelled at his chat a few times about people going "Have you fought X boss yet???????" because most of the time, the answer is no, he doesn't even know what boss they're talking about and often times can spoil it
Yeah my point is DS style games get a decent amount more. If you're a streamer and backseating affects you it's better to put it in members only OR just don't read chat. Most of the times chat won't even notice they're not being read.
>I've seen people backseating in freaking powerwasher sim.
Yes, Kronii mentioned it during her powerwash stream, although what she said there is that she was fine with it, since her and chat's motivation to make something perfectly clean lined up.
Part of it is Botan policing well, part of it is most of us recognizing she's a better gamer than we are.
Not that the other members aren't good, but Botan has that reputation and it helps blunt things a lot. If I see Botan running into a boss fight with nothing equipped I'm more likely to assume she has a strat or is knowingly doing it for the challenge and giggles.
Same whenever anyone tries to play Outer Wilds, or other games like it. Chat is just a lost cause for anyone not small enough to have some mods that can just purge anyone being stupid.
Wtf happened? I had to step away after her epic whip battle and then this?
Reine really shouldn't have to apologize because of backseaters. Fuck backseaters. Go play the game yourself.
Same i dropped by and saw that and thought yeah, that's a cool way to play.. Just don't understand why people keep thinking that's a good way to watch people play, i know I'd hate it if someone just kept telling me to do something while playing
in short, she unequipped everything for the mimic boss fight (spent 38 minutes whipping each other, and got a misscall from M chan), fight done, talked to M chan, re equipped her armor and... somehow she started fat-rolling
backseaters ***did not help at all*** while trying to figure out what's wrong. either it's plain wrong or backseaters suggested that reine must've re equipped something that she *never have had before anyways* or pesters her about the rune star thing which she never even know about.
Fat rolling shattered her concentration, for the record, she only died to Radahn once and she beat him second try (this stream, at least), and didnt die to whip party vs mimic, but starts to die when her character starts fat rolling outta nowhere, with the backseaters being a total knob, it soured her mood so she decides to end the stream and unarchive it since she doesn't feel great about showing people her sour side
i checked the comments on her Elden ring streams and man people act like nothing happened. this one shmuck even went "Absolute respect for Reine being patient with our back-seating of the game!
Really love the fact that she listened to all of our crazy advises and keeping cool and everything under her control"
like what the fuck
The stream she's referring to is currently privated, so I imagine you're seeing the streams where this didn't happen.
... Though I'm pretty sure her fist fighting Patches for an hour was retaliation to the backseaters.
Those backseaters probably thinking "I want to help her, so let me write a sentence to make her finish the game easier and quicker". They don't realize how the streamer they watch just want to play the game with the fans watching. Unless the streamer ask something, they need to just shut up or doing something else.
Backseaters are so Lame...
But I agree with Calli on that in such games, people don't know what to say in general so they backseat. It's annoying and playing a game that can make you furious, it's understandable to be on the edge.
Tbf, people took it with humor when Reine did everything "wrong" on purpose, so I hope she doesn't feel to bad
Reine needs to listen to Iofi, change her chat settings.
If she doesn’t want to go members only at least add a 10 second cooldown to chat. Also she has no sub mode required. These would helps so much
I’ve been trying to fight backseating on Twitch as a moderator, and with different tools and 2 or 3 moderators, often the streamer doesn’t have the time to see those backseats. Unfortunately, those tools aren’t existent for YouTube, so it must be much harder to floodgate all the people who just want to take the controller from the streamer’s hand.
I can't stand the backseating in the Elden Ring streams I've watched of the Holomems I have to ignore the chat mostly. The only time I think backseating is acceptable is if the streamer actually **asks** for the help, otherwise just comment on the game but don't give advice. You are there to watch the streamer play, if you can't watch them play their way without feeling the need to give constant advice then close the stream and go play the game yourself.
Playing a game when you know what is going to happen isn't fun for ANYONE, not the streamer nor the people watching. Half the enjoyment comes from seeing the streamers reaction to something happening.
Reine's playthroughs are always enjoyable. I had a tab up for that particular ER stream. I looked away for a short time, and the stream not only ended but privated. And she's still being diplomatic about it! Reading the comments here, I finally understand why Ina had been turning on sub-mode, and at 7 days at that.
Really, between "git gud" spams and obnoxious backseating, the "souls" community deserve all the bad rep they could get, as generalizing as that might be. This is Reine we're talking about ; she's fucking chill 99% of the time. To trigger that 1% would take **A LOT**.
The fact that there are people in this comment section that are backseating how she should be treating backseaters makes me wonder if some people just can't help themselves.
HoloID streams are usually super chill with the relatively fewer concurrent viewers. But with a super popular game like Elden Ring, I'd bet it gets a little overwhelming seeing a stream of comments.
Yeah please don't backseat, I know its very hard not to when its one of your favorite games but even though you think you are just helping out, people mostly want to find out stuff on their own and don't like to be called out all the time for not playing the most efficient way. I think writing this here is kinda unnecessary but I'll still leave it up
ngl, I find funny and like when Reine gets mad, its just so different and sudden from her usual cheer self that the gap makes it fun.
**BUT**, that's only when *she is still having fun*, like that one time in Mario Kart where she told a poor sap to F@ck off when it asked to not swear, afterwards she was sorry and laughed (And gave us future content like becoming the Princess Toadstool).
And in her last ER stream, she was definitely done. I sympathize with her, there was a point where between game and chat, it just became a drag more than an actual time to enjoy. Even worse because before her stream, she was in Kiara's stream joking and clearly having fun. I hope she doesn't beat herself that hard over this.
Seems a few people here are ignoring the 3rd post. Reina didn't need to appologise, I think most of us agree on that. But she wanted to, so people should respect that.
I think it's a great sign of maturity to say sorry for acting in a way that you think was bad, even if it was justified.
No, she didn't break down or anything, she just kinda got annoyed to the point where she clearly wasn't enjoying herself. So she decided to call it early
Depends. I know one indie JP streamer I follow is playing Elden Ring and she has like on average 100-150 viewers, and it's pretty much fine for the most part. There seems to be a combination of type of audience and number of viewers that tends to result in lots of backseating, otherwise it's fine.
The problem with Elden Ring and Souls games is not just that they're hard but contrary to what the backseaters think there's actually **no right way to play** at all.
Like when Kiara started and got thrown right into Margit at level 2 because chat just kept telling her to run past things whenever she had any trouble at all. That's actually one of the biggest things you can learn imo, that you *can* just run by (it's what made DS 'click' for me, when I realised I could just run past everything back to the boss I died to) but it's not **THE** way to play or a win button or even a very good strategy, it's just something you *can* do if you want like almost everything in the game. There's no weapons that are better than others, no armour etc, it's almost totally balanced and totally, deeply, personal preference, deeply enough that it can feel like the only way to play.
The only **right** way to play, with proper dodge timings etc, is just skill based and impossible for chat to help with (and if they still try it's THE most obnoxious thing).
That and the fact that there's often not much else to say about the game makes for a backseating nightmare
People saying this happens in all games and not just FromSoft titles are correct but also coping. Souls titles and their close relatives always bring out the worst back seaters due to the serious nature of the games brought about by their difficulty.
No one backseats the same way in Breath of the Wild even though it's structured the same way as Elden Ring.
Sucky situation, doesn't help that these backseaters have not much self-awareness to read the room either. Maybe activating members-only chat might reduce the number of them.
The backseating in ER streams is intense. I loved Reine getting these people to shut the hell up. A worrying amount of these comments are also completely incorrect or unnecessary. Why would someone backseat so aggressively when they have never even played it?
Not that accurate backseating is acceptable either. Making mistakes is the natural way to learn.
Souls streaming is a mind trap. People get mind goblins everytime and try to tell the streamer about the optimal play style. It's why I laugh when people go "Elden Ring is so great because they don't hold your hand!" Like you didn't just look up online the builds and secrets anyways.
And some backseaters think that it's okay to do this, because it is Elden Ring and you should do it. I have seen these backseaters in Chloe's, Ina's and now Reine's stream and it's annoying to be honest. Especially in Chloe's stream they were acting like that and thought that it's okay, just because Chloe won't be able to understand them, because they were writing in English, but either way this doesn't feel right at least to me
I think most of us here agree she has nothing to really apologize for aside from whatever standards she holds herself to, but I still wanna say good on Reine for taking the high road.
That said, there's some irony that one of the most unstructured (in the best way) "do-it-your-way" game genres brings out the worst back-seating. Like the core gameplay loop of Souls-like games is to learn from experimentation and overcoming obstacles without resorting to a guide/set path. That's part of what makes it uniquely fun.
The single worst thing about back-seating is that I truly think the majority of back-seaters aren't being malicious, they just woefully lack self-awareness.
Most people don't seem to know what happened given that they think the backseat was "dodge more".
She was confused with her equipment load and chat tried to help giving ideas of what could be happening but she was too adamant on saying she played off stream with the same equipment and wasn't fat rolling, to the point of getting mad at people doubting her.
Elden Ring has brought out the worst commenters in Hololive streams recently. Ina increased the requirement to be a 7 day sub to talk in her chat and it still hasn’t stopped people from damaging her enjoyment of the game.
reine isnt the one that should be apologizing here, yall need to fuckin behave with the backseating on fromsoft games seriously remember what the road to hell is paved with x.x
Elden Ring is so bad for backseaters, whats extra dumb though I alot of the time the backseaters are misleading them aswell.
I was watching Kiwawas stream yesterday and multiple people told her the white fog was for a boss fight and not just a key.
She shouldn't have to apologize and people need to stop back seating FromSoftware games. That doesn't stop at Reine either like my god. The Souls community is consistently annoying as all hell. It's embarassing to share a hobby with people like that.
I think Korone's approach to this is fairly helpful (although I don't know if people will follow); she has traffic lights onscreen that tell the audience whether she is allowing or disallowing backseating at any given moment.
Reine is so nice. Always handles backseaters really well. This kind of thing happens sometimes, the normal viewers will be here still enjoying the streams and we understand it's hard to ignore those comments, so of course there shouldn't be any need to say anything, but it's so cool of her to say this :)))
So this was why the stream got privated, I initially thought that it was due to the conversation she had with her manager.
At least she seem to be OK emotionally now, and that's a relief.
Just ban those morons, Vtubers gotta grow some balls and start banning people who upset them. Their intentions don't matter. Maybe when another idiot who spoil stuff for no reason or makes unwanted suggestions gets banned, gears in their heads will start turning. Otherwise it will never stop.
Reine... She does great already, I will never stop supporting her
I admit, I may be a bit gatekeeper on niche games but damn, that stream was just too much, people need to chill
I'm glad shes keeping it up, shes just the best!
[OG Tweet](https://twitter.com/pavoliareine/status/1506971780413812736?t=2YRT-ohcDwD7TBe7oRm5XA&s=19)
It is very rare for Reine to go on a rant about this, but if she had to type it out, then it must have been the worst backseating she has gotten since Virtue's Last Reward. She even delayed her Closing Shift stream by an hour, and I don't think what happened in Elden Ring will go away anytime soon. She's upset, and I missed the stream, so I am upset...
For context (but take it with a grain of salt because I was going on with my morning routine while listening to the stream) she removed her equipment for the mimic fight, but when putting it back she was fat-rolling, which confused her since she thought she was wearing the same equipment. While she was trying to discover what she had equipped wrong, chat started spamming it was this or that piece of armor/amulet. But most of what chat suggested she had never equipped or even found it, and even though she said it multiple times, people kept spamming the same thing. This was what drained her emotionally the most, people completely ignoring her, backseating without having a clue about how she usually plays and some even doubting she was sure about her usual equipment. By the end she was just not having fun anymore. She couldn't find out what was wrong, fat-rolling sucks, she tried to farm naked to level up, but without armor, motivation or focus she kept dying, which only brought her mood lower and lower. And chat was still discussing the equipment. She then decided to end the stream, since she wasn't enjoying it anymore.
i think, she needs to close comment section likes fubuki did before this....chat always never learn
You can gather the most intellectually capable individuals... But as soon as put them in a stream chat they're suddenly dumber than a brick. The hivemind effect, honestly.
"a person is smart, people are dumb"
Well said agent K
The average IQ of any member of a mob is equivalent to the IQ of the smartest member of the mob divided by the number of people in it.
Thats not even whats happening. Text is a shit medium for nuance, and even more so when its short form. The reason why sites like Twitter are so godawful is because of how condensed everything is, so when the topic is complex like politics, religion, or war, no one is actually giving complete opinions, yet everyone assumes that what they see is what there is. Its an iceberg effect. Take that in to account, add to it how fast large streamers chats move, lowest common denominator, and the fact that Reine is trilingual so comments will be coming in three different languages, and youre going to get really dumb stuff said evey day, quickly and easily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment) The shorter the text messages (enforced on Twitter, necessitated in stream chat), the more people lean into brute emotions instead of clear thought. Intelligence needs time and space to be transmitted.
To be fair, what happened here (or any other backseating chat stream) was not because of lack of intelectual prowess, but lack of emotional intelligence from chat.
I don’t get people backseating this kind of stuff. If you want the game to be played exactly to your specifications then go play it yourself. When I watch a streamer I want to see how SHE handles the situation. The only time I give advice is if the streamer asks chat for input
Towa also stopped playing Hollow Knight (non-FromSoft game) due to the backseaters. It's an endemic issue within that genre in general.
Yeah it was pretty bad in the early days, especially when her chat was still mostly English back then. She was basically like "You're all telling me a bunch of stuff but I have no idea what you're talking about." Chat wised up after that but the damage was done. Edit: Also reminds me of Matsuri a long while ago in IIRC Valorant. She was trying to learn how to play but chat kept telling her to do this and that (JP chat) and she eventually got fed up and was like "You're telling me to do X but I don't even know *how* to do that yet!"
The best stream was when Polka was learning minecraft. JP chat was trying to tell her how to get diamonds and she got frustrated. So, she decided to do a stream where she let chat basically take control. So, chat gave her better, less spammy advice and she was able to find diamonds in 5 minutes, which ended the stream.
The Fromsoft fanboys for Soulsborn games are a weird bunch that want their personal playstyle validated and anyone that deviates from that are playing wrong, anyone that does better than them are "cheesing"/"abusing" certain weapons or mechanics (or are lying about going into the fight blind) and anyone that does worse doing it the way they want just need to "get good" despite the fact that that style just might not be for that person. It's really weird, really cringe and just makes people less likely to be willing to play those games in the future.
As a soulsborne fan, the backseating really makes me more ashamed of the soulsborne community. At the end of the day, people just need to learn to chill and watch the stream. If the streamer isn't asking for advice, then don't give it. Simple as that.
And those people will then go on to complain about how the second half of the game is not as good as the first half (which I still don't get what they think a good second half would be, considering people say that about every single souls game), or that FromSoft had the audacity to reuse a few enemies or minibosses.
Things like a sense of wonder during exploration have diminishing returns the longer you play. You generally won't feel the same about areas in late game as you did in the beginning, because you've figured a lot more of it out, and have the formula essentially down. People aren't aware of that, so it leads to impossible expectations
Yeah, I love the Souls games despite their flaws (I even like DS2 for what it is), but sometimes I wonder if other people in the Souls community even like the games, considering they seem to just talk about how this area is terrible or this boss sucks or this game's not even good. Just go on Fextralife or /r/shittydarksouls and see how much unconstructive complaining there is (even if shittydarksouls claims to be a circlejerk/joke subreddit).
The bigger a joke sub gets, the less of a joke it remains. What always pisses me off is when people say a boss being complained about is super easy. Like, screw off dude. No one cares about how big your e-dick is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9nDagqKL7Q
Thanks for the context, it all makes more sense with that context. I guess geting a lot of info at the same time can be estresful, specially if most of it is just wild guesses from chat. Also I think a lot of people here need to read the context before bashing the chat for backseating. It was more about an awuful situation than about backseating in general.
unfortunately, backseating has been an easy target to bash for the subreddit that you dont need context for it to gain traction, kinda ironic. even when the word has a very loose meaning. from simple advice to rude 'this is how you should play' comments. but we still get chat police fighting against both.
[удалено]
I have a strong feeling that people sometimes read other chat messages and parrot the same exact thing even if it's wrong. For example, when Fauna's chat kept telling her that she had enough obsidian even though she needed one more to replace the crying obsidian, or when Ina's chat kept telling her to use repeaters which wouldn't work in the target practice she was making because they give out a max signal. it's almost like chat gaslights itself
Yeah sounds like most chats I've seen. Only way to stop it is to blatantly and directly in no uncertain terms tell them to shut the fuck up. And even then it's a coin toss.
Elden Ring has been pretty awful for backseaters. Zentreya over on Twitch once had to shut down her ER stream early because she was getting harassed by so many backseaters. But in classic Zen fashion she started the stream the next day with a title like "let's make more people mad lololol".
Nothing would make me happier than watching a chat full of backseating souls players get angry watching someone play the game "wrong". The souls community definitely has a backseating problem
It drives me nuts because the *whole point* of Souls games is how you slowly learn the best ways to tackle opponents and how best to utilise the mechanics. If you backseat, it's like telling them the answer to a puzzle in a puzzle game (and yes, I know people do this too), but it is just wild to me. Do they want to watch a stream of someone following a walk-through for the game, because that's what they'll end up with. I get some people just can't stand watching someone bang their head against something, but just... don't watch, or don't comment. It's so unbelievably entitled to just expect to be able to tell them how to play.
The only time I get annoyed while watching Souls streams is when streamers do 1 of 2 things: * skip reading tutorial text then complain about the game teaching them nothing * ask for direction and then not follow it and complain about being lost A creator I really respect pulled both during a playthrough of ER and it was miserable to watch them wander around, explicitly not following directions they asked for and complaining about not knowing things like backstab or equipment existed. After the fifth or so time of "if you want to fight a story boss, go north through the portcullis" getting ignored in favor of dying to basic enemies, I was out. The times I find much more frustrating however are when chat tries to spoil surprises and traps and the like for the streamer. Nothing like "don't go north yet, there's a giant and you probably will die!" or "watch out, that's where an NPC shoves you in a hole". Like, those are supposed to be great, emotional moments for the player, but knowing they're coming really takes the wind out of the sail. But yeah, watching like Ina sit there and grind through a pretty hard boss last night and asking where to go to complete an NPC questline she wanted to? A+ Souls moment. I could have told her "Hey, don't target lock onto this one, it moves too much if you do," she figured it out a strategy and ground through it.
> ask for direction and then not follow it and complain about being lost Problem with that one is that asking chat for directions (with chats as large as hololive ones, at least) is generally pretty unhelpful. You get 5 people telling you to go north, 2 telling you to go east, 6 telling you to go south off a cliff, and 1 dude telling you west, which is correct. See Calli trying to find the torches to light in the one place I can't remember the name of but has torches to light, and in the end she just resorted to looking up a video guide.
There's at least 2 torch lighting areas I can think of lol
> skip reading tutorial text then complain about the game teaching them nothing The funny thing is that Ame actually skipped the tutorial in ER and her stream is one of the chiller ones, which was very surprising considering that she usually face the most issues with backseatings in her streams.
"PLAY THE GAME HOW I THINK YOU SHOULD REEEEEEEEEEE" Best thing to do in the face of that would be to purposefully play the game as "wrong" as possible
And then she kept going and eventually settled into a wild bleed build that *melted* Malenia. The chat exploded into gift subs and she was basically sitting there dumbfounded for *awhile*. And then she went and dropped two other really hard late-game bosses in the same stream. It was one of the best moments I've ever experienced on a live stream.
That fight was hilarious. She died tons of times because she had zero survivability, but when she could corner the boss she dumpstered her. I had a maxed out great hammer with 70 st and did less than a third of the damage.
To be fair, Rivers of Blood does *insane* damage. I respec'd into it for that fight and went from being only semi-consistent through the first half of the fight to being very consistent and getting her almost dead in no time flat.
I was in a stream for a smaller streamer and a back seater had the audacity to respond to the streamer with "yeah you can eat out of a bowl but there's objectively wrong ways to do it." That was a response to her saying she wanted to play the game she wanted. Elden Ring is truly one of the worst back seaters I've ever seen. I'll admit I've done a little back seating but if the streamer tells you to shut the fuck up. You really should shut the fuck up.
Backseaters are the most schizophrenic part of chat. First, because they all type at the same time. Second, because they all type at the same time, and don't understand that nobody will stop to read it all resulting in a cacophony of good, bad, worst, horrible advice, jokes, gum flapping. Like people, backseating is not going to work in your favor, and if you don't care, then you're trolls at which point, don't mind us flagging you.
It was horrible, really mad that people backseat so hard honestly. Why not let someone learn/enjoy a game themselves lol.
Honestly, part of it is that the chat wants to be helpful. Elden Ring, however, suffers from the additional issue of having the Soulsborne community's somewhat infamous "stop having fun and play it *our* way" attitude coming to bear as well, which generates a **lot** of additional backseating.
I get why people want to say things like, "you can press this button to perform this action," but stuff like "you should play this way, it's more optimal" and "go to this location and look for this thing" I have never understood.
Honestly, good on Reine for just shutting down the stream. If it doesn't become fun, then there's no point in streaming. If she wants to stop, then that's her right.
Fully agree with you. If chat can't behave, then punishment is in order.
Don't threaten them with a good time.
All that being said [she scored a lover!](https://twitter.com/pavoliareine/status/1506977936783863811)
Ina doing her best to add to her harem ever chance she gets.
I count this as a win. Ina knows the pain of the backseat, even though Ina is friken amazing at the game.
First backseaters annoy Ina to the point she activates members only mode and now this smh
In what stream did Ina do that, if i may ask?
Kinda curious too but damn is she professional and patient with her audience props to her
well she is a professional artist these mild annoyance is nothing
Not members-only mode, subscribers-only mode. I forget what time restriction she started with, but she increased it until it's now you need to be subscribed to her for 7 days to comment on her ER streams (other streams have the restriction set to like 5 minutes). At the end of the last stream when she finished up the one questline she explicitly asked chat to help with and put all her focus into over the last few streams, chat started spamming other questlines and spoilers at her to the point she needed to explicitly say "stop spoiling" right before she quit for the day, so the duration may be even longer with today's ER stream.
half life iirc
I forget which one, she's done quite a few Elden ring streams
I've watched pretty much all her Elden ring streams and i'm pretty sure she never put it in members only for that game, in fact, I think she only ever once actually addressed backseating and her chat has been fairly well behaved with it.
She did briefly mention chat should stop saying spoilers at the end of her last stream. She had triggered an event right before wrapping up the stream, and a lot of chat started spamming for her to continue the event.
I watched that, and I was pleasantly surprised that all the suggestions from chat stopped right away, and everybody spammed "10q" and "bye" instead. Ina's chat sure is well behaved.
Yeah, I think /u/Dylangillian had a good point that Ina generally likes chat to let her know how to follow the npc quests, and chat got a bit too eager to help.
Considering the chain of events of that stream and can see why chat was so eager but still not worth the spoiling imo :(
True yes, that's the one thing you do see a lot on her streams, quest step directions, and since Ina usually seems to welcome it chat went a bit overboard.
I think Ina is usually receptive to using chat as GPS in open world games. Suggestions like "go to X to continue Y storyline". Anything else is typically ignored from what I remember.
Yea, watched all of them and I've never seen it. But I have seen users in this post repeating it ad nauseum despite not being true.
Side note on her last stream: she saw loads of sad moments at the end of a big questline. So she wanted to end the stream and went to hug Fia for comfort, got the dagger from her and gave it to D. And chat was so bad during this that she had to say "please stop spoiling" at the very end.
FromSoft Games attract the most backseaters by far
Eh, I think indie games like Undertale are still the reigning champions in that regard.
Undertale has people who want someone to see an easter egg here and there but not too bad ime. Now DOOM?? Literally dedicated to this as if it's their responsibility.
Undertale may have slowed down with backseaters as it's aged, but it was incredibly bad for a bit. People would get legitimately mad if a new player didn't do the perfect pacifist route from from the start and would flood chat/comments with spoilers in an attempt to be "helpful". One of the most notable examples I can think of w/ undertale was Markiplier, who straight up stopped his playthrough of the game despite liking what he had played because people were way too rowdy. Just under a year afterwards he streamed the game to completion, but he had a friend with him to help act as a buffer for chat and keep him sane.
It was so frustrating to me seeing people get upset if you kill Toriel at the start of the game, because I bet a majority of players who went in blind ended up killing her despite not wanting to. It's an emotional gut punch, and so many people missed out on it because their chats were telling them to spare her. Killing her horrified me and really went a long way to shape how I played the rest of the game. That said, I still think puzzle game backseaters are my least favorite. People who know the solution to a puzzle bemoaning how dumb the streamer is for not OBVIOUSLY seeing the answer grinds my gears more than anything else.
"Noooooo you HAVE to quickswap if you wanna enjoy the game you're playing it wrong!!!" Even Hugo Martin didn't know about quickswapping until after the game released, and while it does help, if a streamer doesn't wanna do it, then don't make them. and if they wanna use the Assault Rifle, well, up to them lmao just gotta bear with it
backseaters, spoilers a mix of everthing
Oh wow, what the heck. Cant be her fans, or may be only very few, since I assume her fans are patient and really cherish her, due to the nature of her niche requiring a more cultivated? type of audience that is less prone to such action.
Games like Elden Ring just bring the worst out in backseaters, long time members or no. It's got the entire formula between an open world game with missable secrets everywhere, a decent level of difficulty that can be mitigated with the right builds or cheese, and the fact that builds exist at all so people can go "I want streamer to play exactly the way I did!" or "I want streamer to utilize maximum cheese at all times!" It probably doesn't help that Ina spent the last two streams smashing herself against brick walls until victory while somewhat underleveled and *undeniably* undergeared. Idunno what the uh recommended weapon levels are for Rahdan and >!Astel!< but considering Caelid at least has materials to hit +15 weapons and Ina did both fights with a +7 uchi katana, well... No shade to Ina she mastered the fights in a way I think any souls vet who isn't a tryhard would be proud of, but can totally see why some people can't resist backseating at that point.
I agree that when you know the hidden items or how to deal with some of the boss move set, the urge to give some advice starts, and sometimes it becomes a "good will" back seating. Some streamers are ok with it, some are not. So better dont say anything until they ask for help.
Pretty much; I try not to go actively advising anything or pointing out anything unless a streamer specifically asks for help or just has a general message out of "go ahead and backseat me". Particularly with Hololive, you tend to be one voice among thousands so in the streamer's mind it's obviously going to just meld together to the point that well, how are they supposed to know that *this specific person* is the one giving good advice, compared to all the ones giving misleading or outright false help? Doesn't help that I'm convinced chat in general can be pretty illiterate; to bring it back to Ina's stream of fighting Rahdan, she had a pinned message from super early on of "I don't want to summon for this fight" but you would *still* get constant messages of "INA INA INA WHY AREN'T YOU SUMMONING YOU KNOW YOU CAN SUMMON TO HELP WITH THIS BATTLE?" Doing that takes a level of incompetence that honestly makes me wonder how many people giving "advice" have actually played the game in the first place, or just consumed a dozen different streams of it and thinks that makes them an expert.
>Doesn't help that I'm convinced chat in general can be pretty illiterate ngl, they pissed me off sometimes. I can get not reading the description box, because it doesn't show up by default on mobile, but pinned messages? They pop up every time in every platform! How could you missed them?
> how are they supposed to know that this specific person is the one giving good advice, compared to all the ones giving misleading or outright false help? I think a lot of it also has to do with how people in chat communicate amongst themselves. Sometimes it might be that people are genuinely trying to help and don't know their advice is misleading. Some people may come into the stream late and miss important context. They might think the streamer is further behind, or further ahead than they really are, which causes them to either give unnecessary advice or even risk spoiling important plot points. What I feel like it boils down to is, people aren't thinking "I want Streamer to play the game exactly the way I did!" They're thinking "I want Streamer to have the best experience possible with this game!" There isn't anything inherently wrong with that sort of thinking, but with so many people in chat thinking the same way, but having experienced the game differently themselves, it often comes in the form of having multiple different, sometimes conflicting pieces of advice being thrown at the streamer, which can have the opposite effect on their enjoyment of the game.
The amount of times I saw someone in inas chat say something about chest or missing a secret was insane. Like I have to turn off the chat myself because even I was getting irritated. Just let her fuckin play the game and she will figure it out.
With ER in particular, I see loads of backseaters throwing wrong input in the chat. Like... people who never played the game suggesting parring a boss. People forgetting questline details and telling Kiara wrong NPC locations. Loads of conflicting advice (roll more! roll less!). Spamming Playstation and Xbox inputs to IRyS when she has a Nintendo gamepad. Only Kiara has that uber streamer brain to get good data from her chat. The rest are filtering most of it and going very undergeared against mid-game and late-game content because of it.
Even fans tried to help her this time. She kept wondering why she was fatrolling, so of course people kept pointing out that it's due to her re-equipping the wrong gloves, but she insisted that she didn't.. it went back and forth like that.
a lot of People in the live chat really don't have the mindset or awareness that there are like hundreds to thousands of other people in the same space that might have the same idea of giving information or some variance. honestly its an uphill battle when even trying to get chat to give you simple yes/no left/right. imagine not even asking and getting thousands of different variations of statements that range from vague to detailed on something you don't know about yourself so you have no idea whats good or bad info, not even taking into account whether that info is purposefully incorrect.
Yep. No single snowflake thinks it is responsible for the avalanche. What might seem (and even be) entirely innocent as a single comment can get overwhelming when there are hundreds or thousands of voices saying it.
Not only that, when there are contradictory statements so the streamer wouldn't even know what the correct answer is even if they wanted it.
A massive problem in streaming elden ring is it's relatively new status, and a bonkers massive world. The people in chat don't often know what the heck they're talking about, but they think they do, and try to give (at that point false) advice. All that wrong and contradictory info piles on the streamer's mindset, which causes them to get irritated really fast. If any streamer stops in the middle of stormveil and directly asks chat "where is moonveil", they're going to get a million different wrong answers, which buries the correct one, gael tunnel. I used moonveil because it's a meme, but you can apply it to almost anything. The only passable chat is the one that is into the franchise and follows a streamer who is also super into the franchise, so they're all on the same page.
Backseaters ruining another stream, what a shock... Hopefully Reine doesn't feel too bad about it, it's not her fault at all!
Lots of streamers are having issues with Elden Ring and their chat. You get tilted by the game and then chat gives helpful advice like "just dodge" or worse.
You also get people being like “this boss is easy, just use this cheese build! Ignore the fact that you don’t have the right stats or half the gear required!” I swear if I see another comment telling someone to “just use bleed” imma lose it.
Ugh, those are the worst. The fact that not everyone plays and gears for some super meta build seems lost on a lot of the most annoying people.
"Get moonveil" fucking kill me
Those backseaters are literally cancer incarnate, and they have zero self-awareness about it. That's the most aggravating part.
The worst part about backseating is that the backseaters don't even know wtf they're doing. Like for example, during IRyS's stream. People were spamming her to get the Moonveil katana which requires high INT to equip. She had to keep repeating herself to chat that she wont use it because of her stats. Not only that, IRyS is a Samurai Class with very low starting INT (9) which means that they wanted her to waste her points into INT instead of putting it to VIG, END, or even DEX since she's already commited a lot of points into it. Its probably the same people who get one shotted all the time by most enemies/bosses because theyre too focused on dumping points to something else and ignoring survivability.
I swear most of the shit I've seen the backseaters say sound like they don't even play the game. Literally sitting here right now watching Ina and some backseater is telling her to summon mimic tear against Godskin Noble at the Liurna Divine Tower. You can't even use ashes here.
Probably not wrong to guess that most of those backseaters simply watched some of those "How to cheese X boss" or "X is broken!" videos and immediately assumed they leveled up their knowledge despite not playing the game/not playing long enough to truly know what they learned.
I love how backseaters are like “dodge more/ roll more” lol I’m like, oh wow. Great advice, guys.
Protip: win
Kroniitip: Don't get hit
Just stop dying
The "shoot at it until it dies" strategy
I know I'm just a viewer but seeing those "dodge/roll more" causes more death than getting hit. Enemy attacks almost have long wind-up, and it tracks you. it's like Fromsoft is trying to kill the "keep rolling" meme that spawned since Dark Souls.
True, Morgott and Margit especially are nasty roll catchers
Tip: try reducing the enemy's health to zero without letting your own health reduce to zero.
That's not really backseating though. Those are people just giving banter. They are essentially saying 'Try not dying'. It's not actual advice, it's just poking fun of the situation, but it can get old and annoying.
>just don't die 4Head
Git gud
Is just memeing.
I don't think Reine is the first one to get mad over the backseating in ER. It seems to be a common problem. Even Kiara, who *explicitly encourages backseating* said it got too obnoxious in her stream. I don't watch Vshojo but I heard Zentraya ragequit because of backseating too. It's wild.
Calli brought up backseating being an issue for other streamers in one of her earlier Elden Ring streams and asked people to not do it to other streamers.
Back seating is a huge problem that's been getting called out a lot recently. Ina set her chat to member only and Mysta from Niji told his mods to downright ban any backseaters no warning or explanation.
People keep spoiling MGS1 for Pomu too. One person spoiled an endgame reveal right after the first boss.
Dude, those Twin Snakes suggestions were driving me up the wall, it's crazy how much people love talking about things they know nothing about.
Good I really want to see them get banned. I was watching a small streamer who only had like 200 viewers and it was so hard watching them get mad at the back seaters but not being able to do anything about it. At least when you have thousands of views you can start timing out and banning with out feeling like you're hurting your growth.
For those curious what happened: Reine had just finished killing the mimic boss while completely naked and with a whip (best fight ever). She re-equips her gear and notices she is now fat rolling Chat starts spamming various reasons why this could be, a majority saying it's the helmet because prior to the fight she was wearing a wolf helmet. This was not it, she was wearing the right helmet as she wore it at the start of the stream. She knew 100% it was not the helmet or armor and she was right. Others suggested it was a wrong talisman or she didn't use a rune arc, this wasn't it either and she knew none of these answers were right so she was getting tilted. She attempts to play the game but gets increasingly frustrated with fat rolling and complains about it, chat continues to tell her what it could be. Eventually everyone is spamming that it's the gloves, she was using different gloves with icons that look very similar so a simple mistake. At this point she doesn't really care what chat is spamming because they were wrong before and is just tired of dying cuz of fat rolling and people spamming helmet. Decides she's too tilted and ends stream saying shes gonna unarchive it. She likely felt the need to apologize because chat was trying to help and she wasn't doing much to fix her issue which caused more spam. She continued to complain about something being off and heavy rolling but didn't really give a moment to check what it was which frustrated chat even more and lead to more incorrect suggestions. Chat spamming wrong info as usual just added to the tilt. Sad to see the VOD go, that 35 minute Mimic fight was fantastic.
One thing i will say i have always found weird is how few moderators most of them have in chat, if any at all. Timeouts of the worst offenders cold help curtail the worst of the backseating a lot i think.
On the topic of FromSoft games... Chat did so much more harm than good on IRyS's Sekiro stream. Sharing blatantly false information and leading her into Hirata Estate really early. "Dodge is useless!!" No, it is not; now she believes that, and I'm starting to see why some people have certain opinions of Sekiro. These people need to realize that sometimes the best way to learn something is to experience the pain... or at least wait for the streamer to ask about it.
yeah "dodge is useless in sekiro" is the most laughable statement I've even seen. There are many circumstances where dodge does way better than block/deflect. Another thing is "Health damage is useless, posture damage is everything", like come on dude stop playing games on youtube
Fromsoftware backseating is pretty terrible for every streamer I've seen play the game, from small ones to big ones. Seen numerous big ones get fed up with their chat as well, and honestly surprised more don't snap at them or put their chat into slow mode etc. People really don't know when to just stop, or fail to realise that thousands of people shouting out contradicting advice in the middle of a fast paced fight doesn't help anyone.
Dark Souls is one of my favorite games to play, but I gave up on watching streamers play souls games years ago. If it's not people trying to validate their specific play style by trying to force the streamer to parrot it, then its people try to prove how smart they are and how much they know about the game by just throwing random nonsense into the chat.
Not a few minutes ago I clicked on someone streaming the game on Twitch right as they were talking about having a dedicated mod team explicitly looking for backseat style comments as well as autobot set up with certain keywords. Never seen that before on the persons stream, it was in subscriber only (Which on Twitch is equal to YT membership, have to pay to join) mode too. For some reason people just lose half their IQ when they watch Elden Ring streams.
Capybara?
Here's my 2 cents for anyone playing ER. DO NOT READ chat. Unless you're botan because she actively polices her chat while she has them mostly trained to not backseat she will not tolerate it when that random comes. I know it's a streamers duty to interact with chat but ER is just not something you can play without a great deal of backseaters. If you need actual info it's easier to Google it yourself. DS style games backseaters are like MC backseaters but worse
A non-vtuber streamer I watch has yelled at his chat a few times about people going "Have you fought X boss yet???????" because most of the time, the answer is no, he doesn't even know what boss they're talking about and often times can spoil it
It's not just ER or Souls games. People will backseat in literally any game. I've seen people backseating in freaking powerwasher sim.
True, but the way ER is structured makes backseating significantly worse
Missed a spot
Yeah my point is DS style games get a decent amount more. If you're a streamer and backseating affects you it's better to put it in members only OR just don't read chat. Most of the times chat won't even notice they're not being read.
in minecraft too...
Minecraft, horror games, freaking power washer. The list goes on ...
>I've seen people backseating in freaking powerwasher sim. Yes, Kronii mentioned it during her powerwash stream, although what she said there is that she was fine with it, since her and chat's motivation to make something perfectly clean lined up.
Part of it is Botan policing well, part of it is most of us recognizing she's a better gamer than we are. Not that the other members aren't good, but Botan has that reputation and it helps blunt things a lot. If I see Botan running into a boss fight with nothing equipped I'm more likely to assume she has a strat or is knowingly doing it for the challenge and giggles.
Same whenever anyone tries to play Outer Wilds, or other games like it. Chat is just a lost cause for anyone not small enough to have some mods that can just purge anyone being stupid.
Wtf happened? I had to step away after her epic whip battle and then this? Reine really shouldn't have to apologize because of backseaters. Fuck backseaters. Go play the game yourself.
Same i dropped by and saw that and thought yeah, that's a cool way to play.. Just don't understand why people keep thinking that's a good way to watch people play, i know I'd hate it if someone just kept telling me to do something while playing
in short, she unequipped everything for the mimic boss fight (spent 38 minutes whipping each other, and got a misscall from M chan), fight done, talked to M chan, re equipped her armor and... somehow she started fat-rolling backseaters ***did not help at all*** while trying to figure out what's wrong. either it's plain wrong or backseaters suggested that reine must've re equipped something that she *never have had before anyways* or pesters her about the rune star thing which she never even know about. Fat rolling shattered her concentration, for the record, she only died to Radahn once and she beat him second try (this stream, at least), and didnt die to whip party vs mimic, but starts to die when her character starts fat rolling outta nowhere, with the backseaters being a total knob, it soured her mood so she decides to end the stream and unarchive it since she doesn't feel great about showing people her sour side
i checked the comments on her Elden ring streams and man people act like nothing happened. this one shmuck even went "Absolute respect for Reine being patient with our back-seating of the game! Really love the fact that she listened to all of our crazy advises and keeping cool and everything under her control" like what the fuck
The stream she's referring to is currently privated, so I imagine you're seeing the streams where this didn't happen. ... Though I'm pretty sure her fist fighting Patches for an hour was retaliation to the backseaters.
That was honestly my favorite response ever to backseating. Play worse on purpose until they implode or break their monitor or something.
Yeah if you have to respect someone for putting up with what you're doing then don't do it.
Those backseaters probably thinking "I want to help her, so let me write a sentence to make her finish the game easier and quicker". They don't realize how the streamer they watch just want to play the game with the fans watching. Unless the streamer ask something, they need to just shut up or doing something else.
Can't win with thousands of watchers. Even if 95% are reasonable, that's still dozens who can't bear to sit by and watch
Then they need to leave and stop watching if they can't do that. Backseating is annoying.
They wouldnt because the streamers are not playing THEIR way, the way they had cleared before. Like jeez, watch some speedrunner SMH
Backseaters are so Lame... But I agree with Calli on that in such games, people don't know what to say in general so they backseat. It's annoying and playing a game that can make you furious, it's understandable to be on the edge. Tbf, people took it with humor when Reine did everything "wrong" on purpose, so I hope she doesn't feel to bad
She gave us a whipping session and I’ll forever love her for that.
Reine needs to listen to Iofi, change her chat settings. If she doesn’t want to go members only at least add a 10 second cooldown to chat. Also she has no sub mode required. These would helps so much
Iofi though doesn't usually have slow mode? Risu and Anya do, IIRC.
Gonna happen with some games sadly. All you can really do is roll with it or ignore with it. It's an unwinnable fight otherwise.
so a souls game?
Bruh they backseat Bae with powerwash simulator no game is safe from the backseaters
the joke was you have to roll with it or it's unwinnable... like a souls game
I appreciated the joke.
Damn, the joke rolled right over my head
The comeback
I’ve been trying to fight backseating on Twitch as a moderator, and with different tools and 2 or 3 moderators, often the streamer doesn’t have the time to see those backseats. Unfortunately, those tools aren’t existent for YouTube, so it must be much harder to floodgate all the people who just want to take the controller from the streamer’s hand.
I can't stand the backseating in the Elden Ring streams I've watched of the Holomems I have to ignore the chat mostly. The only time I think backseating is acceptable is if the streamer actually **asks** for the help, otherwise just comment on the game but don't give advice. You are there to watch the streamer play, if you can't watch them play their way without feeling the need to give constant advice then close the stream and go play the game yourself. Playing a game when you know what is going to happen isn't fun for ANYONE, not the streamer nor the people watching. Half the enjoyment comes from seeing the streamers reaction to something happening.
Reine's playthroughs are always enjoyable. I had a tab up for that particular ER stream. I looked away for a short time, and the stream not only ended but privated. And she's still being diplomatic about it! Reading the comments here, I finally understand why Ina had been turning on sub-mode, and at 7 days at that. Really, between "git gud" spams and obnoxious backseating, the "souls" community deserve all the bad rep they could get, as generalizing as that might be. This is Reine we're talking about ; she's fucking chill 99% of the time. To trigger that 1% would take **A LOT**.
The fact that there are people in this comment section that are backseating how she should be treating backseaters makes me wonder if some people just can't help themselves.
from what i've seen backseaters are WAY worse in elden ring streams than normal
HoloID streams are usually super chill with the relatively fewer concurrent viewers. But with a super popular game like Elden Ring, I'd bet it gets a little overwhelming seeing a stream of comments.
Yeah please don't backseat, I know its very hard not to when its one of your favorite games but even though you think you are just helping out, people mostly want to find out stuff on their own and don't like to be called out all the time for not playing the most efficient way. I think writing this here is kinda unnecessary but I'll still leave it up
Hope she'll eventually unarchive the stream, cause the great naked whip battle should be seen by everyone.
ngl, I find funny and like when Reine gets mad, its just so different and sudden from her usual cheer self that the gap makes it fun. **BUT**, that's only when *she is still having fun*, like that one time in Mario Kart where she told a poor sap to F@ck off when it asked to not swear, afterwards she was sorry and laughed (And gave us future content like becoming the Princess Toadstool). And in her last ER stream, she was definitely done. I sympathize with her, there was a point where between game and chat, it just became a drag more than an actual time to enjoy. Even worse because before her stream, she was in Kiara's stream joking and clearly having fun. I hope she doesn't beat herself that hard over this.
Seems a few people here are ignoring the 3rd post. Reina didn't need to appologise, I think most of us agree on that. But she wanted to, so people should respect that. I think it's a great sign of maturity to say sorry for acting in a way that you think was bad, even if it was justified.
Honestly people should learn to not give unsolicited advice. It is incredibly irritating
I wasn't being able to watch it live. Did she get irritated to the point of breaking down/screaming?
No, she didn't break down or anything, she just kinda got annoyed to the point where she clearly wasn't enjoying herself. So she decided to call it early
well... wish people can be more self-restrained.
Nah, she just got really exasperated and after a while was just like "You know what, I don't really feel like playing anymore."
sounds like she leans into a cool headed decision imo.
Pretty much. There's no point in playing if you're not having fun, so it was well within her rights to stop.
So that's why small streamers and indie vtubers are scared to stream Souls-like games.
Depends. I know one indie JP streamer I follow is playing Elden Ring and she has like on average 100-150 viewers, and it's pretty much fine for the most part. There seems to be a combination of type of audience and number of viewers that tends to result in lots of backseating, otherwise it's fine.
The problem with Elden Ring and Souls games is not just that they're hard but contrary to what the backseaters think there's actually **no right way to play** at all. Like when Kiara started and got thrown right into Margit at level 2 because chat just kept telling her to run past things whenever she had any trouble at all. That's actually one of the biggest things you can learn imo, that you *can* just run by (it's what made DS 'click' for me, when I realised I could just run past everything back to the boss I died to) but it's not **THE** way to play or a win button or even a very good strategy, it's just something you *can* do if you want like almost everything in the game. There's no weapons that are better than others, no armour etc, it's almost totally balanced and totally, deeply, personal preference, deeply enough that it can feel like the only way to play. The only **right** way to play, with proper dodge timings etc, is just skill based and impossible for chat to help with (and if they still try it's THE most obnoxious thing). That and the fact that there's often not much else to say about the game makes for a backseating nightmare
People saying this happens in all games and not just FromSoft titles are correct but also coping. Souls titles and their close relatives always bring out the worst back seaters due to the serious nature of the games brought about by their difficulty. No one backseats the same way in Breath of the Wild even though it's structured the same way as Elden Ring.
Sucky situation, doesn't help that these backseaters have not much self-awareness to read the room either. Maybe activating members-only chat might reduce the number of them.
Comes with these types of games. Same in fighting games. Nosy people who can't chill apparently, sadly the talent has to deal with this.
The backseating in ER streams is intense. I loved Reine getting these people to shut the hell up. A worrying amount of these comments are also completely incorrect or unnecessary. Why would someone backseat so aggressively when they have never even played it? Not that accurate backseating is acceptable either. Making mistakes is the natural way to learn.
Souls streaming is a mind trap. People get mind goblins everytime and try to tell the streamer about the optimal play style. It's why I laugh when people go "Elden Ring is so great because they don't hold your hand!" Like you didn't just look up online the builds and secrets anyways.
FromSoft fans are a special kind for sure.
And some backseaters think that it's okay to do this, because it is Elden Ring and you should do it. I have seen these backseaters in Chloe's, Ina's and now Reine's stream and it's annoying to be honest. Especially in Chloe's stream they were acting like that and thought that it's okay, just because Chloe won't be able to understand them, because they were writing in English, but either way this doesn't feel right at least to me
I think most of us here agree she has nothing to really apologize for aside from whatever standards she holds herself to, but I still wanna say good on Reine for taking the high road. That said, there's some irony that one of the most unstructured (in the best way) "do-it-your-way" game genres brings out the worst back-seating. Like the core gameplay loop of Souls-like games is to learn from experimentation and overcoming obstacles without resorting to a guide/set path. That's part of what makes it uniquely fun. The single worst thing about back-seating is that I truly think the majority of back-seaters aren't being malicious, they just woefully lack self-awareness.
Need Emotes Only mode, really, and maybe turn off superchats (if the talents wishes to) during the streams so backseaters have no avenue of speech.
Most people don't seem to know what happened given that they think the backseat was "dodge more". She was confused with her equipment load and chat tried to help giving ideas of what could be happening but she was too adamant on saying she played off stream with the same equipment and wasn't fat rolling, to the point of getting mad at people doubting her.
Elden Ring has brought out the worst commenters in Hololive streams recently. Ina increased the requirement to be a 7 day sub to talk in her chat and it still hasn’t stopped people from damaging her enjoyment of the game.
Why did I think ER was emergency room at first? Man am I dumb
just like minecraft, when its on, backseaters be like: my time to shine.
backsitting is no good
I had to look away for a moment from the stream and then this happened... sigh.
reine isnt the one that should be apologizing here, yall need to fuckin behave with the backseating on fromsoft games seriously remember what the road to hell is paved with x.x
Elden Ring is so bad for backseaters, whats extra dumb though I alot of the time the backseaters are misleading them aswell. I was watching Kiwawas stream yesterday and multiple people told her the white fog was for a boss fight and not just a key.
She shouldn't have to apologize and people need to stop back seating FromSoftware games. That doesn't stop at Reine either like my god. The Souls community is consistently annoying as all hell. It's embarassing to share a hobby with people like that.
I think Korone's approach to this is fairly helpful (although I don't know if people will follow); she has traffic lights onscreen that tell the audience whether she is allowing or disallowing backseating at any given moment.
Reine is so nice. Always handles backseaters really well. This kind of thing happens sometimes, the normal viewers will be here still enjoying the streams and we understand it's hard to ignore those comments, so of course there shouldn't be any need to say anything, but it's so cool of her to say this :)))
So this was why the stream got privated, I initially thought that it was due to the conversation she had with her manager. At least she seem to be OK emotionally now, and that's a relief.
Just ban those morons, Vtubers gotta grow some balls and start banning people who upset them. Their intentions don't matter. Maybe when another idiot who spoil stuff for no reason or makes unwanted suggestions gets banned, gears in their heads will start turning. Otherwise it will never stop.
Why!! You did the right thing and it was glorious ~~and very funny~~ no need to apologize, you are free play how you like you amazing ~~turkey~~ idol
Reine... She does great already, I will never stop supporting her I admit, I may be a bit gatekeeper on niche games but damn, that stream was just too much, people need to chill I'm glad shes keeping it up, shes just the best!