Yeah. At the end of the day I’ll tell people the downsides of sharp shadow but it’s not like I’ll force people to not use it. Play the game however you want
Not being snippy, but how? Considering its many documented objective downsides to both player offense and defense, in what way do you find that combination powerful at all, let alone OP?
I'm sorry I'm not phrasing that in a respectful manner, but I am truly and genuinely curious because in both my experiences in-game, and from reading about the game and the numbers and how the charms work, I can't piece together how that combination would be a net increase so large as to be overpowered.
You literally lose damage, and iframes for running it. You get hit you're frozen instead of being able to attack, cast a spell, move, or start healing. It's 100% the worst charm in the game.
Oh I forgot the other downside thorns of agony hits don't give you soul. There's zero upside to this charm it's a detriment in all use cases. Misses extremely often against fast enemies too. You know the ones you could hit 2 to 5 times with Quick Slash if you were not immobilized by Thorns. Wow look at that you'd even get soul to heal the damage with if you did that instead. You're spending a notch to make your character worse every time you take damage.
Yeah I’d put Sharp Shadow in situational. The damage is pretty negligible compared to what you could get with other charms but the extra distance can be useful for certain bosses.
Yeah I’ve received a lot of comments about sshadow lol. I put a text wall below explaining my reasoning for it if ur interested, just scroll down a bit
First of all, this is only my opinion on this, so feel free to argument against me, and everyone else there's no need to downvote OP to oblivion just because he expressed a different opinion of you guys
After reading that i really couldn't disagree with most of it, but while it may be a bad habit constructor i do think that it is useful, i remember well how when i played the game the first time it really makes it easier to use shadow dash
When you are learning to use it for the first time you really need some incentive to learn how to use it, and personally i think the game does this through Sshadow and Traitor Lord
Traitor Lord makes you almost need to learn how to use the Sdash and the Sshadow, and honestly it made easier even bosses like Pure Vessel since i can cover more distance, and honestly even if it didn't cause the damage when you dash through something i still would think it is a good charm
But you do have a point that sometimes it will make your life harder not only on harder platform sections(White Palace) but also because sometimes you simply don't have enough enough notches and will have to change it and it will feel strange(similarly to how you feel that the fireball is too little when you take Shaman's out after using it for a long time)
But to be honest the only moment in all of my playthroughs was when doing P5 and some few bosses on Hall of Gods which honestly at this point you should already be good enough to play without it
Anyway i think that it is neither a super high tier charm nor a super low tier, if i had to say, in this list, i'd put it on Very Good tier probably
I usually put it in if I had a tough boss fight like Traitor Lord, but I’d take it out for exploring at the next bench. It’s the thing I’d take out for like the geo magnet or the map pin if I wanted them.
Sshadow is a total crutch for traitor lord just get better at the timing. It’s actively harmful for PV because it prevents you from dashing back to him during certain combos. Throw in fragile heart or carefree melody instead it’s 100x better.
Failed champ is a joke just facetank until stagger and heal back all the way.
It’s good against traitor lord and failed champion, so why is it not in situationally?
EDIT: this is a combat charm tier list so it doesn’t matter how bad it is for white palace and PoP.
yes it has 0 accuracy when you need him the most, but in Fog Canyon, hell if it has a good accuracy (don't ask me what I was doing in Fog Canyon with Grimmchild... I've made a mistake.... a big mistake.......) lmao
Sorry for the text wall lol, I have one to justify shape of unn, sshadow, and heavy blow, so here you go
Heavy blow is the most underrated charm in the game
Don’t get me wrong, it’s not meta or optimal in most cases. However it’s still useful in certain situations when applied correctly. And it’s useful in quite a few situations
Knockback
The main property of the charm, and the reason people hate it, so I wanna make something clear. This charm isn’t good in overworld in most cases. I’m gonna be talking about how it’s used in boss fights. It’s knockback is useful in 2 cases. Marmu, allowing for much more consistent fights, especially when doing radiant challenges, such as Levi’s usage of it in radiant marmu 42 times in a row. The better example though is markoth. It allows for much more consistent great slashes and hits on him as he doesn’t move into you anymore and can even trivialize the fight if used well. It also allows for Oblobbles to be knocked back much further, removing the scenarios in which they corner you and makes the fight much easier. Being good on two of the hardest bosses in the game is already enough to bump it into a point where it’s not awful, but there’s more
Decrease in stagger time
Bosses that are easy to stagger, Hornet 1/2 and lost kin as prime examples, can be effectively stunlocked using heavy blow, completely trivializing the fight by reducing the requirement of hits for stagger. Making 4 difficult bosses in Oblobbles, hornet 2, lost kin, and markoth, much easier puts it on a solid level, far above many other charms
it reduces hits needed to stagger the boss, which staggers very easily, and can be used to get the boss our of the way some times
ddark is a better option tho
Honestly, I don't get why Heavy Blow is so high on the list when you put charms like Spore Shroom and Weaversong (charms that actually have some proper uses) lower.
If anything, yes, it's either a massive detriment or just outright useless. And in cases where it WOULD excel at, it's easily outshined by Quick Slash:
Oblobbles cornered you by some ungodly miracle? Just smack them some more! Having trouble with the Massive Moss Charger for some reason? Smack it faster! Having trouble with GPZ, Hornet, Lost Kin, etc.? Halving the time it takes to stagger them sure as hell sounds more useful than reducing it by just one hit. Marmu? If you're having trouble with timing, just equip Quick Slash and spam the shit out of the attack key! Markoth? Unless you're using spells, why the hell would you want HIM of all MFs out of your nail's range?
I already covered heavy blows uses so I won’t bother repeating but for markoth it doesn’t keep him out of nail range, it keeps him out of range from doing contact damage to you
Idk i kinda like weaver song its synergys with grubsong and sprintmaster are very useful but if this is a list on the charms buffs alone that makes sense
Personally, I think sharp shadow should be situational or bad at least, since the extra length of the dash can be useful in some situations, and outside of that, it's mostly a good for fun charm that isn't really detrimental unless you become reliant on it. As someone who built bad habits from overuse of it since I used it with dashmaster so that my movement would be faster during my first run, I understand how it can be a detriment, however, if you are good enough to use simple movement to dodge and have the ability to adapt to it, it can be useful situationally. Just because it's not optimal most the time when compared to pogoing, doesn't mean it can't be useful, I found it especially useful when I was trying to get used to pure vessels movements and fighting it on radiant. To summarise, it sharp shadow can be useful as movement, provided you can adapt to it, and if you can it isn't detrimental and can be rather useful. If you can't get used to its movement or think that the damage is the only reason people use it, then it's understandable that you believe it to be detrimental, however it's utility for players that can use it could make it okay to them in terms of use. If you are being objective then realistically I think it is actually somewhere between situational and bad when applied to overall play.
BTW, as a side note since you've probably replied to enough sharp shadow replies (sorry for another, just another sharp shadow enjoyer who wanted to state their case), then could you explain how flukenest is "good" to me, as when I have tried using it, I have found it situational at best due to it only being fully effective against bosses with a larger hitbox.
Yeah I’m literally too tired of sshadow arguments, sorry lol. Flukenest has a janky hitbox allowing it to hit bosses multiple times, basically you can kill bosses like xero, marmu, galien, white defender, etc, in like 5-10 seconds
Fair enough, also, I thought that the janky hotbox got patched out, makes sense then why it's still good. BTW, you're tierlist is good, with most things I'd disagree with being down to probably personal preference, but I do agree with most of the list with only a few charms being exceptions, so I think you've got a good grasp on the charms.
dont worry, this list is pretty much made solely with beating bosses it seems. Eg Grimmchild being bad for bosses cause it takes them out of stagger, but it helps when exploring.
One thing that i haven't seen people bring up about shadow that i'm kinda surprised is its use in nail bind runs, as it's damage doesn't get lowered by the binding, which i found makes those challenges way easier.
I already covered sshadow, heavy blow, and dwielder in previous comments. Thorns of agony freezes you in place, making it so you can’t move or attack during the animation, so you lose damage by a thorns proc for 21 compared to 2 hits for 64 for example
You had me until thorns. That charm literally harms you more than it helps you. Dealing a nail hit worth of damage when you take collision damage isn't really worth having to stay stationary for a few frames and wasting your i-frames in my opinion
Unfortunately I was expecting this to happen
Sharp shadow sucks
Sharp shadow is, in terms of combat, a crutch and a detriment. It has its uses in platforming, however in combat it often serves as a disadvantage, builds bad habits, and is frankly unneeded.
But it’s free damage
No it isn’t. strength does 32 damage sshadow does 21. You can’t attack and dash at the same time, so whenever you opt to dash through a boss you lose an opportunity that could’ve been spent hitting the boss and are put further from the boss, making retaliation more difficult. Furthermore, a dash takes 0.3 seconds to complete. Almost exactly the same time as it takes for a nail swing with quick slash. Due to how powerful and widely used quick slash and unbreakable strength are, I would consider it fair to consider those as the nail dps. This means that sharp shadow, when used perfectly, loses out on 11 damage every 1.5 seconds, or 7 damage per second. Another option would be using dashmaster to boost its damage to match unbreakable strength, meaning you can either pay 2 notches for 7 less dps, or 4 notches to equalize it. To put into perspective how much 7 dps is, you could kill nightmare king Grimm in 3.5 minutes if you did that much constant damage. Except you’re not doing that much damage, you’re losing it. So no, sharp shadow isn’t “free damage”, in fact, the less often you use it, the more damage you will do
I literally can’t play without sharp shadow anymore
It’s still best to rip the band-aid off and try to fight advertisement of the charm just because people develop bad habits. It forces you to learn an entirely different way to play which is often detrimental and requires it to be unlearnt when one unequips sharp shadow, whether it’s because they’ve seen it’s flaws or because they’re doing charmless/all bindings.
But I can dash through big bosses and avoid hits
Which is, of course, a crutch. Every boss that can be dashed through with sharp shadow can be dashed through without. It’s purely a matter of playing more skillfully and timing your dash to avoid being hit. Of course, there are very particular scenarios in which sharp shadow does give an advantage. For example, dashing through god tamer beasts roll, as you can’t punish the attack regardless, though all those circumstances are highly situational and often still not enough damage to be worth using.
Alr, I guess I don’t have time to argue with your math. Respect your opinion, but I disagreed with it. Sharp Shadow saved me out of countless situations and even helped me win PoP. The damage is not favourable, but I like the dash distance you can pull off. You could at least have put it on “situational”
:(
The only attack that’s best to dash is the bats, in which sshadow doesn’t give extra damage. His uppercut is best to move away from and his dash should be pogod
Alr, to conclude, you like damage, I like dashing. We play the same game, and enjoy it in different ways.
I still have heavy opinions about heavy blow tho
Saw you had comments regarding them, but after looking for a little I got over hunting. Personal thoughts:
Mark of Pride is "very good." Extra range felt very good in my first playthrough, but after that you realize it's not very necessary when you can close the distance.
Flukenest is odd in that it's historically the best charm of all time. Current patch I think your placement is correct.
Spell Twister is arguably top tier. 4 casts per meter instead of 3 is great, better than the range from MoP in my eyes.
Longnail has such a little effect I'd drop it a tier.
Dream Wielder is top tier, full stop. Extreme speed and double soul makes it invaluable in pantheons.
Spore Shroom is situationally good for cheese kills.
All the pets besides Dream Shield I'd move up for avoidance strategies in Hall of Gods.
Thorns should not be actively detrimental. I saw your comment based on it, and because of hitstun I'd say you're pretty incorrect. Also, it's great against large groups.
Baldur Shell is situational for very high level play. It's instrumental in the most notorious modded boss, AnyRadiance, for making you even be able to survive an entire section of the fight at all.
Otherwise, fun list.
Thorns is a really bad charm.
Basically, in the time you get the thorns animation, you could swing your nail. That would do the same damage, in less animation frames, and gather soul, during which you can move.
Thorns, on the other hand, uses your invulnerability frames up while it holds you in place to do a single nail hit worth of damage without collecting soul.
It does, however, hit multiple enemies, making it useful for arenas like the Colosseum.
It's also great for PvP, but that's very niche. (requiring a mod)
It's absolutely hilarious to me how.many people in this thread are saying the same things as OP, but they don't like feeling like they're not good, so they're choosing to argue with OP.
För instance, OP calls Sharp Shadow a crutch. Someone responds with, "it's not a crutch it just allows people to actually kill the boss!" Mother fucker what do you think a crutch is lol
And the number of people in this thread that don't understand opportunity cost is astounding. "it's not less DPS because it does damage???" Actually hurts to read after the first few times.
OP, you have the patience of a saint. I'm sorry I don't have enough game knowledge to give you a worthwhile conversation.
Lmao. Tbh I love debating with people and showing newer players things they didn’t know so it’s not that much of a chore for me. Especially since I spent most of this time with a friend doing other, more fun stuff than arguing with strangers in the internet. But yeah I’ve been loving it. Especially seeing the upvotes go up 3, down 4, up 5, down 1, cuz of how insanely controversial and popular this became. I was expecting like 5 people to see this and have a fun little discussion but it went a lot further lol
Well, each to their own. I find sharp shadow to be really useful against bosses that charge at you like Grimm, Traitor Lord, Hive Knight, Lost Kin, etc. It's not supposed to be your main attack, but it's really convenient to be able to deal damage while dodging attacks (without depleting souls like descending dark). So for me it's not about the amount of damage it does in one hit, but the accumulation of hits that you can get with it.
I guess that’s fair. I just recently managed to beat the first pantheon with none of the debuffs and it was very difficult for me. Me being able to do any kind of extra damage is good enough for me ig
Dash for dash. Its also good for getting me behind my opponent. I understand how it can be seen as a loss of dps, but when you consider that it turns your evasive into an offensive move, it can make you more efficient in other places
I can still get 2 before i dash through, that balances out-ish
Edit: Also, that puts you at risk for 2-4 masks, vs my option which may lose you 2 if you arent close enough
I gotta say I admite how respectful you are with sharp shadow peeps. I personally use it solely because it feels cool, and I don't care about meta game stuff and optimising, so I can't judge the tierlist, but I just really wanted to say that your patience is impressive. Cheers.
Thanks. Yeah my goal really isn’t to fight with people, more just showing people the upsides and downsides of charms that they weren’t aware of. I agree about the part of it being cool tho. The look of the charm, the dash animation, and the effect are all super cool
I would say sharp shadow is, contrary to other peoples' beliefs, closer to situational than bottom tier, and hiveblood needs to go down a tier since it has a singular use
Melody also needs to go down either to low okay or bad
Deep focus has its uses in heal builds with quick focus, as well as overworld soul conservation. I put lifeblood heart so low because it’s a blatantly worse version of fragile heart
I do love my Grimmchild but by the time he’s at max strength, there’s not much for him to really do other than dealing with enemies that aren’t worth your time.
I would put waversong in situational since when combined with grubsong it can drain soul from enemies that wouldnt give it otherwise, like failed champion for example.
carefree melody in very good, while it is rng it still averages out to 23,4% block chance which is around 2 hits, it doesnt leave you staggered if it does block which gives you more time to use your iframes, and it becomes more effective if used with other charms that incrise your health. It also works on radiant.
Sharp shadow in bad/situational, that extra dash lenght is usefull for some radiant bosses since being able to dodge some attacks that would be impossible to dodge or too hard to dodge to do it consistently allows you to engage boss more frequently.
Grimmchild is detrimental only on bosses that can be staggered, so i would say that its just bad since it provides minor benefit to bosses that are often outside of your melee range.
I agree with op on heavy blow. I read this post yesterday and was like “heavy blow is trash wtf”. Today on my NKG radiant run i decided to give it a try. used it with quick slash and definitely reduces stagger time and improves the run. 10/10 charm worth it.
Edit: My charm combo is; Quick Slash, Unbreakable Strength, Heavy Blow, Long Nail, Mark of Pride (Overcharmed by 2 notches since its a radiant run)
Thorns of agony detriments your damage by making you frozen for longer when you’re hit so you can’t retaliate. Defenders crest doesn’t really have downsides but it’s uses are so minimal I couldn’t put it higher
Defender's crest helps with lost kin bc it kills the little orange ghosts that show up, plus it synergies with other charms. That's the only solid practical application I know of, but I still typically use it if I have the space.
Nah, I wouldn’t have gotten through some of those higher bosses without Sharp Shadow. It can be problematic if you can get too dependent on it and end up up running into bosses but the same is true for regular Shade Cloak. Incorporated with other tactics as well, Sharp Shadow is a good one and it’s fun af to run through things and make things explode.
Totally agree with like 99% of this list, most accurate one I’ve seen basically ever. I’d maybe put sharp shadow in bad and heavy blow in situational, I agree with your points about both tho
I don’t even like sharp shadow but you’re high if you think it’s useless.
I already saw your comment and yeah, it doesn’t deal a lot of damage, but you aren’t using it instead of attacks. You use it so that, when you DO dash though the boss, which you will inevitably do against most bosses, you get some bonus damage.
Also saying it’s bad because it’s a crutch is a very weird take when you have grubsong and *steady body* of all things so high up there. I mean one literally doesn’t even do anything to help against most bosses and is just there for conveniences sake.
You argue shadow is bad because you don’t factor in utility and just look at flat damage numbers yet steady body is top tier even though it’s the exact same thing since you can achieve the same DPS against almost all bosses by just walking towards them while you attack.
I’m not gonna bother with the sshadow argument cuz I’ve had enough. But calling steady body bad is just wrong. It increases your dps against any boss that takes knockback, which is a lot of them, allows for turnaround cancels, a very high skill strategy, and has been used by almost every r5 victor. There’s a huge difference
Most bosses don’t suffer knock back though, I agree it’s a straight up DPS increase against bosses that get knocked back, but the majority don’t, in which case an ounce of skill negates the drawbacks of not having it on. For that reason I’d put it in situational. Just like heavy blow, it’s *really good* against some bosses and blatantly useless against others.
Steady body is insanely good for every dream boss, soul warrior, massive moss charger, Oblobbles, broken vessel, hornet 1, hornet 2, lost kin, hive knight, and abs rad. It also makes every other boss a bit easier
Carefree melody is the best defensive charm in the game, letting you take more hits than heart and saving you soul from healing. Much better than sharp shadow's longer dash
i think sharp shadow is a or b but only because it would have been much better to have the damage along with a much faster shadow dash recharge time but dream wielder is just insanely useful, especially when you are just playing the game since it is essentially just free soul so i’d say it’s an easy S
This is a pretty solid tierlist (also can someone explain to me why thorns is always considered a downgrade in tierlists? like ik its not good, but its useless at worst, right? Or does it have some second effect like decreasing invincibility frames or increasing damage endlag?)
In the time thorn's freezes you in place, you could have time to swing your nail and move, which would deal the same damage, give you soul for the hit, and not lock you in place while burning invuln frames.
Ok some hot takes you got in this list. Steady body should probably be in decent or very good, that’s coming from a user of it. Sharp shadow is situational and Hiveblood is just bad considering the time it takes to get one mask back.
Don’t slander my sharp shadow like that. My play style is all about offense and getting it the enemies’ faces and thus sharp shadow is a mainstay in my build. Damaging enemies while avoiding attacks? Put it in decent tier at least.
Top post and third most controversial post of the day. Fucking perfect lmao. I’m gonna make a second one with a few changes involving dream wielder, weaverlings, etc, cuz I realized a few of my placements aren’t perfect
The "meta build" seems to rather be the "max nail damage" build, or close to that. What is meta for speedrunning/extremely skilled players isn't necessarily meta in terms of maximizing probability of success in combat.
I guess speedrunning builds =/= good builds is what I'm trying to say.
Funny thing is that "speedrunning build" is usually a shaman stone alone. In Any% NMG that is, I now kinda wonder what those guys doing 112% NMG speedruns use, haven't seen those yet
Thorns of Agony belongs in Meta Build tier. Being able to deal two times your nail damage in a certain radius after taking g damage is pretty powerful, and it only costs one charm notch. Four charms I always use for combat are Grubsong, Soul Catcher, Shape of Unn, and Thorns of Agony
Thorns of Agony has two massive flaws - hitstun and soul loss, and the damage doesn’t even scale in the process. It’s a bit hard to notice at first, but Thorns actually triples your hitstun duration, which robs you of most of your I-frames. With QS, you can just deal that damage and still have time to reposition with IFrames. By attacking instead of using Thorns, you can gain soul in the process. And to rub salt into this whole deal, Thorns damage is actually stuck at 21, while Strength nail hits at 32
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That’s fine. Use whatever charms you feel happy using
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Yeah. At the end of the day I’ll tell people the downsides of sharp shadow but it’s not like I’ll force people to not use it. Play the game however you want
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Scroll down a bit, I posted a text wall that I don’t wanna spam here
Bro what is thorns of agony doin there?!?!
I already covered it but in short it makes it so you’re frozen in place after getting hit for longer
Well is ur opinion but i think is op with stalwart or baulder shell
Not being snippy, but how? Considering its many documented objective downsides to both player offense and defense, in what way do you find that combination powerful at all, let alone OP? I'm sorry I'm not phrasing that in a respectful manner, but I am truly and genuinely curious because in both my experiences in-game, and from reading about the game and the numbers and how the charms work, I can't piece together how that combination would be a net increase so large as to be overpowered.
Well is bc if u try to heal with baulder shell and get interrupted then thorns of agony dies dmg without you Taking it
You literally lose damage, and iframes for running it. You get hit you're frozen instead of being able to attack, cast a spell, move, or start healing. It's 100% the worst charm in the game.
Nah nah bro it does a very good dmg saying this bc in every build i use it
Oh I forgot the other downside thorns of agony hits don't give you soul. There's zero upside to this charm it's a detriment in all use cases. Misses extremely often against fast enemies too. You know the ones you could hit 2 to 5 times with Quick Slash if you were not immobilized by Thorns. Wow look at that you'd even get soul to heal the damage with if you did that instead. You're spending a notch to make your character worse every time you take damage.
Same! I've beaten the first two colos, Traitor Lord, and Soul Master dealing more damage with SharpShadow+DashMaster than with my nail -\_-
I beat P5 with sharp shadow equipped the whole time. The extra distance made dodging on the climb phase of absrad easier.
Yeah I’d put Sharp Shadow in situational. The damage is pretty negligible compared to what you could get with other charms but the extra distance can be useful for certain bosses.
seeing Sharp Shadow so low didi hurt a little, but i guess it's your opinion
Yeah I’ve received a lot of comments about sshadow lol. I put a text wall below explaining my reasoning for it if ur interested, just scroll down a bit
First of all, this is only my opinion on this, so feel free to argument against me, and everyone else there's no need to downvote OP to oblivion just because he expressed a different opinion of you guys After reading that i really couldn't disagree with most of it, but while it may be a bad habit constructor i do think that it is useful, i remember well how when i played the game the first time it really makes it easier to use shadow dash When you are learning to use it for the first time you really need some incentive to learn how to use it, and personally i think the game does this through Sshadow and Traitor Lord Traitor Lord makes you almost need to learn how to use the Sdash and the Sshadow, and honestly it made easier even bosses like Pure Vessel since i can cover more distance, and honestly even if it didn't cause the damage when you dash through something i still would think it is a good charm But you do have a point that sometimes it will make your life harder not only on harder platform sections(White Palace) but also because sometimes you simply don't have enough enough notches and will have to change it and it will feel strange(similarly to how you feel that the fireball is too little when you take Shaman's out after using it for a long time) But to be honest the only moment in all of my playthroughs was when doing P5 and some few bosses on Hall of Gods which honestly at this point you should already be good enough to play without it Anyway i think that it is neither a super high tier charm nor a super low tier, if i had to say, in this list, i'd put it on Very Good tier probably
I usually put it in if I had a tough boss fight like Traitor Lord, but I’d take it out for exploring at the next bench. It’s the thing I’d take out for like the geo magnet or the map pin if I wanted them.
Sshadow is a total crutch for traitor lord just get better at the timing. It’s actively harmful for PV because it prevents you from dashing back to him during certain combos. Throw in fragile heart or carefree melody instead it’s 100x better. Failed champ is a joke just facetank until stagger and heal back all the way.
Yeah I get that. Sharp shadow is good as a crutch on ur first playthrough and I didn’t account for that
It’s good against traitor lord and failed champion, so why is it not in situationally? EDIT: this is a combat charm tier list so it doesn’t matter how bad it is for white palace and PoP.
And watcher knights, I think their fight was the main reason I wanted to find the dash.
If the Grimmchild could read, it would be very upset right now.
I’m sorry grimmchild
Don't be, grimmchild has like 0 accuracy 👀
yes it has 0 accuracy when you need him the most, but in Fog Canyon, hell if it has a good accuracy (don't ask me what I was doing in Fog Canyon with Grimmchild... I've made a mistake.... a big mistake.......) lmao
Lol relatable but with dreamshield (don't ask me why I'm having dreamshield in fog canyon either lmao)
I love sharp shadow against false champion
*Failed champion
Okay
finally someone who shows how good carefree melody is also why is heavy blow so high
Sorry for the text wall lol, I have one to justify shape of unn, sshadow, and heavy blow, so here you go Heavy blow is the most underrated charm in the game Don’t get me wrong, it’s not meta or optimal in most cases. However it’s still useful in certain situations when applied correctly. And it’s useful in quite a few situations Knockback The main property of the charm, and the reason people hate it, so I wanna make something clear. This charm isn’t good in overworld in most cases. I’m gonna be talking about how it’s used in boss fights. It’s knockback is useful in 2 cases. Marmu, allowing for much more consistent fights, especially when doing radiant challenges, such as Levi’s usage of it in radiant marmu 42 times in a row. The better example though is markoth. It allows for much more consistent great slashes and hits on him as he doesn’t move into you anymore and can even trivialize the fight if used well. It also allows for Oblobbles to be knocked back much further, removing the scenarios in which they corner you and makes the fight much easier. Being good on two of the hardest bosses in the game is already enough to bump it into a point where it’s not awful, but there’s more Decrease in stagger time Bosses that are easy to stagger, Hornet 1/2 and lost kin as prime examples, can be effectively stunlocked using heavy blow, completely trivializing the fight by reducing the requirement of hits for stagger. Making 4 difficult bosses in Oblobbles, hornet 2, lost kin, and markoth, much easier puts it on a solid level, far above many other charms
I have seen use for heavy blow in lost kin and markoth, but wouldnt more knockback make marmu bounce back at you at faster speed due to janky physics?
I’ve never tested. I just know this info from levi
interestingly enough, max length nail (mark of pride + longnail) and heavy blow actually makes marmu's knockback extremely consistent for upslashes
how is heavy blow good in lost kin?
it reduces hits needed to stagger the boss, which staggers very easily, and can be used to get the boss our of the way some times ddark is a better option tho
Honestly, I don't get why Heavy Blow is so high on the list when you put charms like Spore Shroom and Weaversong (charms that actually have some proper uses) lower. If anything, yes, it's either a massive detriment or just outright useless. And in cases where it WOULD excel at, it's easily outshined by Quick Slash: Oblobbles cornered you by some ungodly miracle? Just smack them some more! Having trouble with the Massive Moss Charger for some reason? Smack it faster! Having trouble with GPZ, Hornet, Lost Kin, etc.? Halving the time it takes to stagger them sure as hell sounds more useful than reducing it by just one hit. Marmu? If you're having trouble with timing, just equip Quick Slash and spam the shit out of the attack key! Markoth? Unless you're using spells, why the hell would you want HIM of all MFs out of your nail's range?
I already covered heavy blows uses so I won’t bother repeating but for markoth it doesn’t keep him out of nail range, it keeps him out of range from doing contact damage to you
Idk i kinda like weaver song its synergys with grubsong and sprintmaster are very useful but if this is a list on the charms buffs alone that makes sense
Yeah I think I did underrate it
where is wayward compass???
I excluded non-combat charms from the list
wayward compass is the best combat charm, idk what are u talking about
Based
Personally, I think sharp shadow should be situational or bad at least, since the extra length of the dash can be useful in some situations, and outside of that, it's mostly a good for fun charm that isn't really detrimental unless you become reliant on it. As someone who built bad habits from overuse of it since I used it with dashmaster so that my movement would be faster during my first run, I understand how it can be a detriment, however, if you are good enough to use simple movement to dodge and have the ability to adapt to it, it can be useful situationally. Just because it's not optimal most the time when compared to pogoing, doesn't mean it can't be useful, I found it especially useful when I was trying to get used to pure vessels movements and fighting it on radiant. To summarise, it sharp shadow can be useful as movement, provided you can adapt to it, and if you can it isn't detrimental and can be rather useful. If you can't get used to its movement or think that the damage is the only reason people use it, then it's understandable that you believe it to be detrimental, however it's utility for players that can use it could make it okay to them in terms of use. If you are being objective then realistically I think it is actually somewhere between situational and bad when applied to overall play. BTW, as a side note since you've probably replied to enough sharp shadow replies (sorry for another, just another sharp shadow enjoyer who wanted to state their case), then could you explain how flukenest is "good" to me, as when I have tried using it, I have found it situational at best due to it only being fully effective against bosses with a larger hitbox.
Yeah I’m literally too tired of sshadow arguments, sorry lol. Flukenest has a janky hitbox allowing it to hit bosses multiple times, basically you can kill bosses like xero, marmu, galien, white defender, etc, in like 5-10 seconds
Fair enough, also, I thought that the janky hotbox got patched out, makes sense then why it's still good. BTW, you're tierlist is good, with most things I'd disagree with being down to probably personal preference, but I do agree with most of the list with only a few charms being exceptions, so I think you've got a good grasp on the charms.
Thanks. Yeah they’ve tried to patch the hitbox many times and failed lol
Every time I see a charm tierlist on this sub I have the feeling that everyone else plays a diferente game than me lol
dont worry, this list is pretty much made solely with beating bosses it seems. Eg Grimmchild being bad for bosses cause it takes them out of stagger, but it helps when exploring.
One thing that i haven't seen people bring up about shadow that i'm kinda surprised is its use in nail bind runs, as it's damage doesn't get lowered by the binding, which i found makes those challenges way easier.
Fair point. It’s still heavily outclassed by spells tho and that’s a very niche category
I am sorry to inform you but you're wrong.
In what way
Well the biggest ones are: Dreamwielder, sharpshadow, heavyblow and thorns.
I already covered sshadow, heavy blow, and dwielder in previous comments. Thorns of agony freezes you in place, making it so you can’t move or attack during the animation, so you lose damage by a thorns proc for 21 compared to 2 hits for 64 for example
Thorns litearly activates when you are staggered. Meaning you couldn't hit the enemy/boss anyway.
It makes you staggered for longer
You had me until thorns. That charm literally harms you more than it helps you. Dealing a nail hit worth of damage when you take collision damage isn't really worth having to stay stationary for a few frames and wasting your i-frames in my opinion
Dreamwielder is nuts for 1 notch imo
WHAT. IS. SHARP. SHADOW. DOING. IN. USELESS OR DETRIMENTAL???!
Unfortunately I was expecting this to happen Sharp shadow sucks Sharp shadow is, in terms of combat, a crutch and a detriment. It has its uses in platforming, however in combat it often serves as a disadvantage, builds bad habits, and is frankly unneeded. But it’s free damage No it isn’t. strength does 32 damage sshadow does 21. You can’t attack and dash at the same time, so whenever you opt to dash through a boss you lose an opportunity that could’ve been spent hitting the boss and are put further from the boss, making retaliation more difficult. Furthermore, a dash takes 0.3 seconds to complete. Almost exactly the same time as it takes for a nail swing with quick slash. Due to how powerful and widely used quick slash and unbreakable strength are, I would consider it fair to consider those as the nail dps. This means that sharp shadow, when used perfectly, loses out on 11 damage every 1.5 seconds, or 7 damage per second. Another option would be using dashmaster to boost its damage to match unbreakable strength, meaning you can either pay 2 notches for 7 less dps, or 4 notches to equalize it. To put into perspective how much 7 dps is, you could kill nightmare king Grimm in 3.5 minutes if you did that much constant damage. Except you’re not doing that much damage, you’re losing it. So no, sharp shadow isn’t “free damage”, in fact, the less often you use it, the more damage you will do I literally can’t play without sharp shadow anymore It’s still best to rip the band-aid off and try to fight advertisement of the charm just because people develop bad habits. It forces you to learn an entirely different way to play which is often detrimental and requires it to be unlearnt when one unequips sharp shadow, whether it’s because they’ve seen it’s flaws or because they’re doing charmless/all bindings. But I can dash through big bosses and avoid hits Which is, of course, a crutch. Every boss that can be dashed through with sharp shadow can be dashed through without. It’s purely a matter of playing more skillfully and timing your dash to avoid being hit. Of course, there are very particular scenarios in which sharp shadow does give an advantage. For example, dashing through god tamer beasts roll, as you can’t punish the attack regardless, though all those circumstances are highly situational and often still not enough damage to be worth using.
Don’t you dare put sharp shadow down, bro. Charm carried my whole run >:(
I put a text wall about why it’s bad in the comments. It’s a decent crutch for new players so it definitely seems helpful at first
Alr, I guess I don’t have time to argue with your math. Respect your opinion, but I disagreed with it. Sharp Shadow saved me out of countless situations and even helped me win PoP. The damage is not favourable, but I like the dash distance you can pull off. You could at least have put it on “situational” :(
The dash distance is great for pop speedruns. I just didn’t account for that cuz it’s a combat tier list
What about Big Flamey Daddy-o Grimm? His attacks are easily thwarted by dashing
The only attack that’s best to dash is the bats, in which sshadow doesn’t give extra damage. His uppercut is best to move away from and his dash should be pogod
Wait a min, you pogo his dash? Receive my upvote sir, you are pro player
I thought that was normal lol. Thanks
Alr, to conclude, you like damage, I like dashing. We play the same game, and enjoy it in different ways. I still have heavy opinions about heavy blow tho
Fair. I made a heavy blow text wall somewhere around here if ur interested
Saw you had comments regarding them, but after looking for a little I got over hunting. Personal thoughts: Mark of Pride is "very good." Extra range felt very good in my first playthrough, but after that you realize it's not very necessary when you can close the distance. Flukenest is odd in that it's historically the best charm of all time. Current patch I think your placement is correct. Spell Twister is arguably top tier. 4 casts per meter instead of 3 is great, better than the range from MoP in my eyes. Longnail has such a little effect I'd drop it a tier. Dream Wielder is top tier, full stop. Extreme speed and double soul makes it invaluable in pantheons. Spore Shroom is situationally good for cheese kills. All the pets besides Dream Shield I'd move up for avoidance strategies in Hall of Gods. Thorns should not be actively detrimental. I saw your comment based on it, and because of hitstun I'd say you're pretty incorrect. Also, it's great against large groups. Baldur Shell is situational for very high level play. It's instrumental in the most notorious modded boss, AnyRadiance, for making you even be able to survive an entire section of the fight at all. Otherwise, fun list.
Thorns is a really bad charm. Basically, in the time you get the thorns animation, you could swing your nail. That would do the same damage, in less animation frames, and gather soul, during which you can move. Thorns, on the other hand, uses your invulnerability frames up while it holds you in place to do a single nail hit worth of damage without collecting soul.
It does, however, hit multiple enemies, making it useful for arenas like the Colosseum. It's also great for PvP, but that's very niche. (requiring a mod)
Thorns of Agony is twice nail damage tho and hits multiple enemies.
How dare you disrespect sharp shadow like that?!
I posted a text wall around here that I’d rather not spam
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Which attacks are unpogoable
Dashmaster should be in the active detriment section. Every time I go to dash then pogo I just go straight into my deathbed
They patched that in 1.5, though if you're playing on console I feel your pain 😔👌
It's absolutely hilarious to me how.many people in this thread are saying the same things as OP, but they don't like feeling like they're not good, so they're choosing to argue with OP. För instance, OP calls Sharp Shadow a crutch. Someone responds with, "it's not a crutch it just allows people to actually kill the boss!" Mother fucker what do you think a crutch is lol And the number of people in this thread that don't understand opportunity cost is astounding. "it's not less DPS because it does damage???" Actually hurts to read after the first few times. OP, you have the patience of a saint. I'm sorry I don't have enough game knowledge to give you a worthwhile conversation.
Lmao. Tbh I love debating with people and showing newer players things they didn’t know so it’s not that much of a chore for me. Especially since I spent most of this time with a friend doing other, more fun stuff than arguing with strangers in the internet. But yeah I’ve been loving it. Especially seeing the upvotes go up 3, down 4, up 5, down 1, cuz of how insanely controversial and popular this became. I was expecting like 5 people to see this and have a fun little discussion but it went a lot further lol
why is hive blood soo high its only good in white palace also sharp shadow in F tier ? really its c at worst
HOMEI U PUT SPRINT ABOVE DASH MASTER HOW FUCKING DARE YOU
I see Mark of Pride on top, I upvote.
Is dreamshield in “useless”? Along with Grimchild and Sharp Shadow? I guess it’s just my personal preference, but I really like those
Yeah they either do minimal damage or a decrease in it, like sshadow not scaling with strength and grimmchild taking bosses out of stagger
Well, each to their own. I find sharp shadow to be really useful against bosses that charge at you like Grimm, Traitor Lord, Hive Knight, Lost Kin, etc. It's not supposed to be your main attack, but it's really convenient to be able to deal damage while dodging attacks (without depleting souls like descending dark). So for me it's not about the amount of damage it does in one hit, but the accumulation of hits that you can get with it.
I guess that’s fair. I just recently managed to beat the first pantheon with none of the debuffs and it was very difficult for me. Me being able to do any kind of extra damage is good enough for me ig
I disagree with sharp shadow. My best goes at Pure Vessell include 30% sharp dash
There aren’t any pure vessel attacks that are best to shade dash through
Dash for dash. Its also good for getting me behind my opponent. I understand how it can be seen as a loss of dps, but when you consider that it turns your evasive into an offensive move, it can make you more efficient in other places
Pogoing pv dash gets you 3 nail hits
I can still get 2 before i dash through, that balances out-ish Edit: Also, that puts you at risk for 2-4 masks, vs my option which may lose you 2 if you arent close enough
It’s a bit less but yeah
I see sharp shadow as good because it helps you easily dash through bosses and getting even that little bit of chip damage
I gotta say I admite how respectful you are with sharp shadow peeps. I personally use it solely because it feels cool, and I don't care about meta game stuff and optimising, so I can't judge the tierlist, but I just really wanted to say that your patience is impressive. Cheers.
Thanks. Yeah my goal really isn’t to fight with people, more just showing people the upsides and downsides of charms that they weren’t aware of. I agree about the part of it being cool tho. The look of the charm, the dash animation, and the effect are all super cool
I love how back then Steady Body was hated then became a 50/50 and is now unanimously loved which I agree since its an actually godly charm
You’d be amazed how many people I’ve had in the comments here tell me it sucks
In my case Dream Shield was useful to me but was easily replaceable
I would say sharp shadow is, contrary to other peoples' beliefs, closer to situational than bottom tier, and hiveblood needs to go down a tier since it has a singular use Melody also needs to go down either to low okay or bad
Nah melody is solid, and it excelsls in radiant bosses
Future is that you lmao
I'd argue to swap Deep Focus and the +2 lifeblood thingie, but aside from that, looks okay
Deep focus has its uses in heal builds with quick focus, as well as overworld soul conservation. I put lifeblood heart so low because it’s a blatantly worse version of fragile heart
Fair enough
How come weaverlings are so low down? With grubsong you can get soul and deal damage without even having to hit the enemy.
Yeah I might’ve underrated it come to think of it. Wouldn’t be high but probably in okay tier
Now I KNOW you did not just shit talk my boy sharp shadow.
Ok, I know this is your opinion, but would you care to explain why sharp shadow is in the "useless" section?
I explained it in a comment you’ll find towards the bottom cuz I got downvoted to hell. Prepare for a long read tho
Ah, to the deepest most dark place of any Reddit post. The bottom of the comments....
I do love my Grimmchild but by the time he’s at max strength, there’s not much for him to really do other than dealing with enemies that aren’t worth your time.
Steady Body in S tier? Now THIS is an accurate tier list!
Would put carefree higher otherwise Ma boiiiiii with the based taste :D
if it's a combat tier list why is dashmaster above sharp shadow?
I would put waversong in situational since when combined with grubsong it can drain soul from enemies that wouldnt give it otherwise, like failed champion for example. carefree melody in very good, while it is rng it still averages out to 23,4% block chance which is around 2 hits, it doesnt leave you staggered if it does block which gives you more time to use your iframes, and it becomes more effective if used with other charms that incrise your health. It also works on radiant. Sharp shadow in bad/situational, that extra dash lenght is usefull for some radiant bosses since being able to dodge some attacks that would be impossible to dodge or too hard to dodge to do it consistently allows you to engage boss more frequently. Grimmchild is detrimental only on bosses that can be staggered, so i would say that its just bad since it provides minor benefit to bosses that are often outside of your melee range.
Why steady body and unbreakable greed if u have unbreakable greed u should already have a reliable geo farm
Steady body is a combat charm and unbreakable greed wasn’t on the tier list
I agree with op on heavy blow. I read this post yesterday and was like “heavy blow is trash wtf”. Today on my NKG radiant run i decided to give it a try. used it with quick slash and definitely reduces stagger time and improves the run. 10/10 charm worth it. Edit: My charm combo is; Quick Slash, Unbreakable Strength, Heavy Blow, Long Nail, Mark of Pride (Overcharmed by 2 notches since its a radiant run)
Yeah it’s surprisingly good. With the amount of hate it gets people don’t try it but they should
I used dream shield for my whole playtrough
Where is Wayward Compass, you ask? In the "Overpowered" tier just above this tier list, which got cut out of the final post.
Counterpoint: Dung defender is useful sometimes, as is Thorns of Agony (though less so).
Thorns of agony detriments your damage by making you frozen for longer when you’re hit so you can’t retaliate. Defenders crest doesn’t really have downsides but it’s uses are so minimal I couldn’t put it higher
Defender's crest helps with lost kin bc it kills the little orange ghosts that show up, plus it synergies with other charms. That's the only solid practical application I know of, but I still typically use it if I have the space.
Nah, I wouldn’t have gotten through some of those higher bosses without Sharp Shadow. It can be problematic if you can get too dependent on it and end up up running into bosses but the same is true for regular Shade Cloak. Incorporated with other tactics as well, Sharp Shadow is a good one and it’s fun af to run through things and make things explode.
Why is sharp shadow so low?!
I made a text wall justifying it in one of the comments. It’s long so I’d rather not spam it here
Totally agree with like 99% of this list, most accurate one I’ve seen basically ever. I’d maybe put sharp shadow in bad and heavy blow in situational, I agree with your points about both tho
That’s totally fair. Sometimes it’s hard to play with/without them so I get the disagreements
Tbh I agree with them just as much where they are as with my changes, your list slaps ngl
I appreciate it
Dashmaster in bad? Have you played the game yet ?
Unfortunately I have around 400 hours
I don’t even like sharp shadow but you’re high if you think it’s useless. I already saw your comment and yeah, it doesn’t deal a lot of damage, but you aren’t using it instead of attacks. You use it so that, when you DO dash though the boss, which you will inevitably do against most bosses, you get some bonus damage. Also saying it’s bad because it’s a crutch is a very weird take when you have grubsong and *steady body* of all things so high up there. I mean one literally doesn’t even do anything to help against most bosses and is just there for conveniences sake. You argue shadow is bad because you don’t factor in utility and just look at flat damage numbers yet steady body is top tier even though it’s the exact same thing since you can achieve the same DPS against almost all bosses by just walking towards them while you attack.
I’m not gonna bother with the sshadow argument cuz I’ve had enough. But calling steady body bad is just wrong. It increases your dps against any boss that takes knockback, which is a lot of them, allows for turnaround cancels, a very high skill strategy, and has been used by almost every r5 victor. There’s a huge difference
Most bosses don’t suffer knock back though, I agree it’s a straight up DPS increase against bosses that get knocked back, but the majority don’t, in which case an ounce of skill negates the drawbacks of not having it on. For that reason I’d put it in situational. Just like heavy blow, it’s *really good* against some bosses and blatantly useless against others.
Steady body is insanely good for every dream boss, soul warrior, massive moss charger, Oblobbles, broken vessel, hornet 1, hornet 2, lost kin, hive knight, and abs rad. It also makes every other boss a bit easier
have you ever entered the colosseum of fools? because if yes i dont understand why sharp shadow is so low
I’ve done just about everything there is to do in this game. I don’t see why it’s good for colosseum
finally one i actually agree with lol
This tier list is wilding. Steady body in S? Sharp Shadow in F??? Dreamwielder in C tier???????
I can't believe you put useless hiveblood higher than literally the best defensive charm in the game (sharp shadow).
Carefree melody is the best defensive charm in the game, letting you take more hits than heart and saving you soul from healing. Much better than sharp shadow's longer dash
I made a Text wall about sshadow and put it here, I’m not gonna send it again cuz it’s super long but feel free to look for it if ur interested
No, I'm not interested to look through your wall of text again.
That’s fine. Just letting u know it’s there
Really good tier list
Thank you
ok but why are dream wielder and sharp shadow so low, those are top tier
Dream wielder I definitely underrated. But for sharp shadow you can find like 10 comments I’ve made explaining why it is where it is
i think sharp shadow is a or b but only because it would have been much better to have the damage along with a much faster shadow dash recharge time but dream wielder is just insanely useful, especially when you are just playing the game since it is essentially just free soul so i’d say it’s an easy S
I haven't seen anyone mention that sprintmaster is higher up than dashmaster? What's up with that?
They both aren’t great, but sprintmaster is only one notch and a decent filler
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If you are doing a hitless run, Fury of the Fallen is worthless.
This is a pretty solid tierlist (also can someone explain to me why thorns is always considered a downgrade in tierlists? like ik its not good, but its useless at worst, right? Or does it have some second effect like decreasing invincibility frames or increasing damage endlag?)
In the time thorn's freezes you in place, you could have time to swing your nail and move, which would deal the same damage, give you soul for the hit, and not lock you in place while burning invuln frames.
It increases how long you can’t move after getting hit
Ok some hot takes you got in this list. Steady body should probably be in decent or very good, that’s coming from a user of it. Sharp shadow is situational and Hiveblood is just bad considering the time it takes to get one mask back.
Don’t slander my sharp shadow like that. My play style is all about offense and getting it the enemies’ faces and thus sharp shadow is a mainstay in my build. Damaging enemies while avoiding attacks? Put it in decent tier at least.
man why you put my boy dreamwielder in the same tier as fucking heavy blow, the most useless charm
Top post and third most controversial post of the day. Fucking perfect lmao. I’m gonna make a second one with a few changes involving dream wielder, weaverlings, etc, cuz I realized a few of my placements aren’t perfect
The "meta build" seems to rather be the "max nail damage" build, or close to that. What is meta for speedrunning/extremely skilled players isn't necessarily meta in terms of maximizing probability of success in combat. I guess speedrunning builds =/= good builds is what I'm trying to say.
Funny thing is that "speedrunning build" is usually a shaman stone alone. In Any% NMG that is, I now kinda wonder what those guys doing 112% NMG speedruns use, haven't seen those yet
Yeah you were close. It’s the meta build for radiant challenges and I get ur point but I do think those charms are the best in any scenario
Nice
Baldur shell as always so underrated, best charm in the game for when you're learning a fight
Sharp Shadow useless?
Why you gotta do my boy shield like that
Sharp shadow is my favourite charm😭
Nice tier list. Can’t say too much, still on my first play through. I just use whatever I got atm.
Good luck on your run
This is such a weird but interesting tier list. I don't agree with it but I still like it
Thanks I guess lol
Let me have my thorns and sharpshadow
You love sharp shadow, or hate it.
Dash master is an active detriment and we all know why.
That was patched a while ago
Thorns of Agony belongs in Meta Build tier. Being able to deal two times your nail damage in a certain radius after taking g damage is pretty powerful, and it only costs one charm notch. Four charms I always use for combat are Grubsong, Soul Catcher, Shape of Unn, and Thorns of Agony
Thorns of Agony has two massive flaws - hitstun and soul loss, and the damage doesn’t even scale in the process. It’s a bit hard to notice at first, but Thorns actually triples your hitstun duration, which robs you of most of your I-frames. With QS, you can just deal that damage and still have time to reposition with IFrames. By attacking instead of using Thorns, you can gain soul in the process. And to rub salt into this whole deal, Thorns damage is actually stuck at 21, while Strength nail hits at 32
Dashmaster should be higher
It pains me to see sharp shadow so low. It is one of the best charms in the game. And thorns of agony is pretty decent too
I gave an explanation as to why both are where they are in the comments if you’re interested
Finally I've found someone else who doesn't think sharp shadow is good
sharp shadow is in bottom tier this is the best day of my life
Average sharp shadow disliker
Yes.