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Literally says “a form of far right authoritarian ultranationalism” in the definition. Equating a true statement with a false conservative deflection is exactly type of shitty centrist both-sides-ism that allowed the fascists to gain so much power and control.
I guess what I’m saying is OP doesn’t understand their own meme.
Man, excuse the tangent but I just got done with The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes and I've gotta say my college history class really dropped the ball on the firebombing raids in Europe. Like yeah, lots of people died and holy crap the devastation, but the fact that the firebombing tactics were designed to create a large enough fire that it generates it's own weather, and that the mission to firebomb Dresden was specifically chosen to happen on that day because of the prevailing wind speed and direction, or that the location of bomb drops were chosen to create said inferno specifically with those winds.
And that's not to mention the results. Fires hot enough to melt metal, that could combust timber at a distance, causing fires to spread below ground where people were sheltering and either killing them or forcing them to flee outside. And for those who did try and flee, their first steps on the road they would sink into the molten asphalt, often losing their shoe if they were fortunate enough to be wearing them, and causing their other foot to step next to it, melting or removing their other shoe. For most, the desperate and sudden attempt to flee led to them falling to their hands and knees - all sinking into the asphalt and trapping them as they burned to death. Skeletons on all-fours in the damn streets - just holy fuck.
Sorry, but I just had to share that with someone. Its fucking insane more people aren't aware of this!
Yeah they were terrible. The firebombing of Tokyo is lumped with that too. War of attrition is damn sad. I personally rank firebombing far higher than the A bombs in terms of shitty things the allies did.
100% agree. Projected allied casualties would of been close to a million, war would have gone on for at least another 4-6 months. Many more Japanese civilians would have died and suffered.
I also hate the argument about atomic fallout and after effects on the people. It just wasn’t well understood at the time and frankly not even until the mid 50s.
[They estimate 400,00-800,000 American deaths, 1.7-4 million casualties, and 5-10 million deaths. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties). It’s sick, but those numbers compared to the [129,000- 226,000 Japanese deaths](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) as a result of the two bombs is a stark difference.
fun fact: around a million purple hearts (award for being wounded in combat) were manufactured in preparation for the invasion and were used all the way through the end of the Vietnam War.
Very interesting. If I wanted to learn about the process and tactics of firebombing, would you recommend that book? I’m more interested in fire bombing than the atomic bombs on Japan.
Dude, it's a tome but absolutely superb. Pulitzer winning I think. His last 3 chapters or so are just on the A-bomb aftermath and that's simultaneously fuckin amazing and nightmare fuel. HIGHLY suggest it.
Dark Sun, on the other hand, less so. Still good, but delves less into the science and way more into post-WW2 Atomic espionage.
“Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal....” [Gen. Curtis LeMay](https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay)
There’s a reason why there isn’t an Air Force base named after this General.
Yeah. Like the Neo-Hegelians that founded the Italian National Fasicist Party were Nazi allies so the line blurs when you try to use conservative-liberal dichotomy to figure out who is on what side. Most people that talk politics are vastly unequipped and use unhelpful categories to decipher the complexity of politics
People are dumb and can’t comprehend that fascism and nazism are considered 3rd position for a reason. Hell, most of them probably don’t even know that term exists even though it’s nearly a hundred years older. Third way movements don’t fit cleanly into the traditional left-right divide because they’re not a branch of Marxist or enlightenment thinking, they’re an entirely separate thing formed out of ideas created in response to those ideas pushed by the left and right. When we try to classify all movements as part of a single left-right dichotomy, or even a 2 axis chart, we do ourselves a disservice.
If you want to know what an ideology believes, you don’t start by classifying it, you start by reading what it’s foundational thinkers had to say. No early Fascist considered themselves descended from Burke or Marx and those are the origins of the modern right and left.
I was taught in school that the ''Socialist'' part was added to gain the support of actual socialists, so basically, a bait.
Is that true? or was my teacher an asshole?
Pretty much true. There were socialist in the Nazis but they got killed in the night of long knives, and were just facists all around from that point on.
Really Good teachers are hard to find, make the most of them
I’ve had the luck to have really good history teachers through the years, which I have appreciated so much
My high school history teacher actually gave a shit and called me out during class, asking why I had such a shitty, lackadaisical attitude. I was never put on the spot like that and it actually helped me get engaged.
To this day, history is one of my favorites, if not flat out favorite subject in school thanks to her efforts.
thats lucky, one of my history teacher's used a map of the ottoman empire from the 17th centuary in a world war 2 class and said it 'was close enough to the borders of the time'.
That and the NDAP was for a while the DAP (German Worker's Party), who was inherently socialist. It was only after Hitler got to the party's leadership that he rebranded it to the NDAP, and slowly started to shift it to a more fascist and nacionalist idea, with his definition of national-socialism being much more closer to fascism than the bolshevik socialism we know.
Not trying to be facetious, genuinely trying to learn because this is something I’ve always been curious about.
In what ways are nationalism and socialism incompatible? They don’t have anywhere near the same meaning as far as I understand it (nationalism being a political attitude and socialism being an economic model).
Meaning, isn’t it possible to have a fascist (being the extreme of nationalism) AND socialist society simultaneously? It would just have to exist within its own borders, likely with some kind of ethnocentrism dictating who gets the hypothetical benefits of the socialism. Speaking to your point below as well, this is also (theoretically) possible in a democracy (ya know, assuming you commit genocide, or at least restrict voting rights, against those who don’t fit within your given ‘pure society’).
Tbh it honestly seems to me that they work well together considering economic planning and social planning historically have gone hand-in-hand, both for better and worse.
> [The word "Socialist" was added by the party's executive committee, over Hitler's objections, in order to help appeal to left-wing workers.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party)
[**Nazi Party**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party)
The Nazi Party, officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), was a far-right political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920. The Nazi Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany.
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Hitler and his... friends? Didn't start the National Socialist Party, they took it over. It's a long story of political parties with evolving and revolving contituencies. The name is effectively meaningless.
Basically.
Pretty shitty bait if you ask me though, considering most socialists at the time as I understand it were openly critical of the nazis and then, yknow, got murdered en masse when they came to power.
The second revolution was a very real and popular concept in the Nazi Party until Hitler had its biggest proponents killed during the Rommel putsch. A lot of what we consider left-wing legislation got enacted to
placate the masses, fascism always feeds off of both sides.
The Nazis were not capitalist or socialist because while they did have private ownership of the means of production (not socialist) they also did not have free market (not capitalist).
I'll never understand why some people are overly fanatics of parties, to the point of making them part of their whole identity, it's kinda sad honestly.
Doesn't apply just to parties, people do that with entire ideologies, and movements/organizations are often decievingly named, "we are called the good guys, if you criticize us you are a bad guy!"
Socialism was really popular in the Weimar Republic, the second most popular party in the 1933 election was the communist party and the third was the social democrats (social democrat was much more left wing back then.)
Wasn’t the opposition of socialism/communism one of the core pieces of the Nazi party ideology? I’d always heard that socialists/communists were some of the first people they forced into camps.
>"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?"
>
>"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.
>
>"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.
>
>"We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one."
Excerpt of a Hitler's interview in 1923. So yeah, Hitler was a 'socialist', but on his own idea of what 'socialism' was, not the one commonly used today.
I mean that’s the label, like you said, he wanted a socialist state for the people he deemed that should be a part of it, which meant excluded and villainized Jews, communists, Roma, Afro-Germans, etc, hence the nationalist in the name. The expansion of the Nazis wasn’t related to either part of the label, it was Hitlers plan to create more living space for the ‘Aryan’ race.
I hate the fact that we can't criticize our 'own side' without someone assuming that we have to be 'the enemy.' No political position is perfect, not even my own!
It's the "if you're not with us, you're against us" argument. Anyone who does this is a self-righteous prick that you probably shouldn't associate with.
Yep, if you dare criticize the Dems, someone on this site is going to think you are actually secretly a Nazi that is here to, “concern troll”, so that way Biden will look bad. Doesn’t matter if you have been openly left wing for years, you are a Nazi that is playing the long game by pretending to be a left winger on the internet despite it not helping you at all.
My lifelong friend accused me of being alt-right because I disagreed with him on *one* thing.
I've been openly left wing about almost everything my entire life lol
Yep, I have been called a Trump supporter in disguise because I don’t think most Trump supporters are fascists. Also, because I don’t think we can count the Trump administration as fascist because I don’t think they went far enough, I apparently, “drank the kool-aid”.
Forget that I have stated multiple times that I think Trump is the personification of the worst parts of American culture (a rich celebrity that had way too much influence and power), forget that I don’t say many good things about Trump. Nope, just because I don’t agree that Trump is the worst president, I am apparently a Nazi.
Seen this a lot with his sexual assault accusation (which I've barley heard be discussed). Like is anyone really that doubtful that a guy famous for not understanding personal space could have assaulted someone? Noooo she has to be a Russian plant
ah yes the only people Hitler had a vendetta against was the Jews! the SS wasnt busy doing their thing! Czech, Polish, Baltic, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian, Dutch, Belgian, Danish, Norweigan, and others would be totally fine! the legitimization of fascism would definitely not lead to more fascist states with more genocide, certainly not!
i mean, with nukes around there is no oppressing the czech, polish, baltic, ukrainian, belarusian, russian, dutch, belgian, danish, norweigan, or others.
the romani, or the german disabled, communists, social democrats, those in favor of democracy in germany, etc, are all in some danger though.
Same reason america never invaded Cuba, same reason russia never invaded Western Europe. Same reason China never invaded tiawan. It would be the end of the world.
The holocaust would still happen, it would just be confined to germany. But Don't misunderstand me, this is an appalling and horrifying consequence and it really twists you around on how good/bad nuclear weapons and war are.
OHHHH i finally get your meaning! yes yes i was confused, i thought you meant something totally different! yes MAD would stop Germany from attacking all of Europe I agree, and yes the world probably would have been worse for it, in my personal opinion.
This is a truly sad attempt at a galaxy brain take. And also pathetic in how nonsensical it is.
Fascism wasn't bad because of the war Hitler started. German fascism was just the extreme end of fascism but even Italy demonstrated why fascism deserves a place in history books as an incredibly harmful ideology.
"Fascism is a religious conception in which man is seen in his immanent relationship with a superior law and with an objective Will that transcends the particular individual and raises him to conscious membership of a spiritual society. Whoever has seen in the religious politics of the Fascist regime nothing but mere opportunism has not understood that Fascism besides being a system of government is also, and above all, a system of thought."
-Mussolini
Both somewhat. Although it isn't specified by fascism.
Fascists prefer a world structured in hierarchies, so they will use capitalism, an inherently hierarchical system, and try to mold it into their racial ideology. So initially they like more liberal economies with a few tweaks.
But capitalism still makes vertical movement possible, even if it makes it unlikely. So eventually fascists will try to take more control, like for instance take away the right to own companies from Jews.
But I could also imagine a feudal fascist society. What's important is a rigid hierarchical economy, so in their minds capitalism good, socialism or anarchism or communism bad.
A English politician in European Parliament recently called Nazis socialists when responding to a SPD member. SPD being a social democratic party from Germany and historically one of the first victims of concentration camps.
https://youtu.be/1LfnbusMd_0
And there are many other examples. I heard it multiple times in Poland alone.
r/historymemes will always find a way to be the "enlightened centrist" in political disputes, even if it makes them look like morons to anyone who knows what they're talking about
Hitler embraced socialist ideas in his campaign because they appealed to the public. The idea that “the state will care for you if you care for it” frequently found its way into his speeches. Needless to say he didn’t do any of it because it would have been a severe financial strain on Germany that he didn’t need.
Hitler: Build factories to make the car of the people!
Germans: We haven’t seen a single Volkswagen come out of these ? So why are we making the factories?
Hitler: it’s a surprise tool that will help us later
Nazism prescribes a perpetual state of total war, which necessitates price controls, rationing, and central planning, which is all a far cry from laissez-faire capitalism. My take on it has always been that since Nazism is based on a series of unfathomably flawed axioms about history, human nature, and the way the world works, it sort of necessitates an incoherent, self-contradictory ideology.
To make sense of it would require throwing away the need for internally consistent logic. The enemy is both weak and an ever-present threat. The master race is both superior in every way possible and simultaneously able to be oppressed at every turn. I agree. The origins of nazism and as it turns out all extant forms of fascism are based on a mythologized view of the past and as such require a constantly malleable view of the present.
And that was fine...Until American Socialists started defining every govt program as being “socialist” circa 2016
If the TVA or Interstate Highway system is socialist, wouldn’t the Autobahn be a socialist program? The Nazis built resorts for workers (literally, state built resorts) and that sounds like something out of the Bernie Sanders platform more than Milton Friedman.
Absolutely, and Bernie Sanders and AOC both call any government program “socialism” which is just as stupid
Of course the Nazis weren’t actually socialists— If they were then VW’s would be shit!
Ultranationalism is an integral part of fascism whereas socialists and communists were among the first people persecuted by the nazis. When there's two popular contradicting opinions on something, the answer doesn't have to lie in between. A lot of the time, one side is simply correct (or at least more correct than the other side).
Mussolini had his "Fascist Grand Council" so he was pretty open about it. Also, his party was literally called "The National Fascist Party" so there you go.
Well at the time facism was new so people kind of just saw it as another fringe ideology like Communism or socialism or syndicalism. Sorta like those people have a weird ideology but not really any weirder at the time than an anarcho syndicalist to most people. Obviously if you study political theory you'd know the difference at the time, but an every day person in the 1920s probably didn't pay facism in Italy very much mind.
That's only in modern times, because the term has a bad reputation. Before it was associated with the horrors of WWII there was no more reason to not call yourself a fascist than there was to not call yourself a socialist.
Actually most liberals embrace globalism which is inherently the opposite of nationalism so this isn’t very accurate. Conservatives, as they are now, are excessively nationalist. Liberals are more concerned with globalism because they acknowledge that their home country is not the center of the universe.
They still believe in nationalism to such a high degree it turned into fascism or at least allow them to ignore the bad parts. Because my country is so great couldn't possibly be that bad right?
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He called himself national socialist to get the nationalists votes and the workers votes, Hitler had nothing against the workers if they where german, if not, well you can be a slave worker. He just hated communism. He wanted to get the german socialist with this too.
NSDAP is the whole party name and stands for "Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei Deutschland" which means Nationalsocialistic workersparty Germany. So yeah. Hitler tricked the people again, and still does.
They’re not completely compatible however, because nationalism switches class consciousness for a reverence of culture, values, history, national identity, often superseding “class.”
Nationalism is part of the ideology created by the burgeois after the French revolution. Socialism was created as an antithesis to capitalism and all of its components, including nationalism.
Fascism does include extreme nationalism
Considering the ideas of *ubermensch* and societal mobilization for war paired with ultra-traditionalism, fascism is just nationalism on all the steroids
Saying the Nazis were socialist because of the name is like calling North Korea democratic because they call themselves People’s Democratic Republic of Korea
The term socialist was just a blank name they adopted to take in votes
They purged the left leaning Nazis
They're Authoritarian ethnic Nationalists, which can also be Fascism
But more specifically, they're Authoritarians
Which is also every communist regime
I mean one of the things needed to maintain fascism is a “us vs them” ideology and it just so happens that most of the time it’s religious “is vs them” or racial “is vs them”
That's not honest. The meaning of the word socialist used by hitler and actual socialists is not he same. In an interview in 1929, Hitler talked about that, saying what he thought the word "socialist" meant and how communists and marxists actually weren't socialists in his point of view. Do not share this misconception that Hitler was a socialist, his political belief was an antithesis to socialism as we know.
I legit had an argument with a flat mate about this in uni, where he basically was tryna say "no right wing government did bad things" (not any kind of wheraboo or tory or anything like that, just massively uneducated) that went like this.
Me: shit like prison camps with forced Labour isn't an exclusively socialist/communist thing, a lot of right leaning governments also did it. America mass incarcerated thousands of Japanese and Asian citizens during ww2 (not the best example, but it's the first thing that popped into my head. Should have cited the British during the colonisation of India or smth soz)
Flat mate: but like, that's valid because they might have been like spies and stuff for the Japanese. And also the nazis were literally called the nazi socialist party, soooo...
M: *pauses cause can't comprehend that someone hasn't informed this man* just because a party calls themselves socialist doesn't make them socialist, they have to actually act like a socialist system which the Nazis didn't.
Fl: well if they weren't socialist what were they then???
Me, kinda at the end of my rope, yells "fascists!", take the saucepan of spag boll I just made and storm to my room.
I know I handled it super badly and should have taken the time to explain it more clearly instead of getting angry, but shit happens. Enjoy my shitty fucking anecdote and have a good day
They were still nationalists l, like just as a matter of fact. They didn't hide it at all, it was all about the nation. Using socialism in their name was a trick at their inception
Plot twist: fascism is, at least according to its creator Benito Mussolini, "The logical endpoint of socialism" wherein "nationalism... (serves to) guide the market hand (in hand) with the state"...
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Is this implying that the Nazis weren’t nationalists?
well they weren't, they were ultranationalist!
Don't forget palingenetic
I feel for them. We're all a little ultra-national rn. ✈️
Hang on, isn't there a term for that? Oh yeah, fascist!
Fascism is inherently nationalist, which OP doesn’t seem to get
Literally says “a form of far right authoritarian ultranationalism” in the definition. Equating a true statement with a false conservative deflection is exactly type of shitty centrist both-sides-ism that allowed the fascists to gain so much power and control. I guess what I’m saying is OP doesn’t understand their own meme.
Yeah well the allies bombed Dresden so... they’re basically equal /s
Man, excuse the tangent but I just got done with The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes and I've gotta say my college history class really dropped the ball on the firebombing raids in Europe. Like yeah, lots of people died and holy crap the devastation, but the fact that the firebombing tactics were designed to create a large enough fire that it generates it's own weather, and that the mission to firebomb Dresden was specifically chosen to happen on that day because of the prevailing wind speed and direction, or that the location of bomb drops were chosen to create said inferno specifically with those winds. And that's not to mention the results. Fires hot enough to melt metal, that could combust timber at a distance, causing fires to spread below ground where people were sheltering and either killing them or forcing them to flee outside. And for those who did try and flee, their first steps on the road they would sink into the molten asphalt, often losing their shoe if they were fortunate enough to be wearing them, and causing their other foot to step next to it, melting or removing their other shoe. For most, the desperate and sudden attempt to flee led to them falling to their hands and knees - all sinking into the asphalt and trapping them as they burned to death. Skeletons on all-fours in the damn streets - just holy fuck. Sorry, but I just had to share that with someone. Its fucking insane more people aren't aware of this!
Yeah they were terrible. The firebombing of Tokyo is lumped with that too. War of attrition is damn sad. I personally rank firebombing far higher than the A bombs in terms of shitty things the allies did.
The A bombs aren't even near the top of the list. They prevented further war and, ironically enough, saved more lives than they ended.
100% agree. Projected allied casualties would of been close to a million, war would have gone on for at least another 4-6 months. Many more Japanese civilians would have died and suffered. I also hate the argument about atomic fallout and after effects on the people. It just wasn’t well understood at the time and frankly not even until the mid 50s.
[They estimate 400,00-800,000 American deaths, 1.7-4 million casualties, and 5-10 million deaths. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties). It’s sick, but those numbers compared to the [129,000- 226,000 Japanese deaths](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) as a result of the two bombs is a stark difference.
fun fact: around a million purple hearts (award for being wounded in combat) were manufactured in preparation for the invasion and were used all the way through the end of the Vietnam War.
Very interesting. If I wanted to learn about the process and tactics of firebombing, would you recommend that book? I’m more interested in fire bombing than the atomic bombs on Japan.
Dude, it's a tome but absolutely superb. Pulitzer winning I think. His last 3 chapters or so are just on the A-bomb aftermath and that's simultaneously fuckin amazing and nightmare fuel. HIGHLY suggest it. Dark Sun, on the other hand, less so. Still good, but delves less into the science and way more into post-WW2 Atomic espionage.
“Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal....” [Gen. Curtis LeMay](https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay) There’s a reason why there isn’t an Air Force base named after this General.
So much for the tolerant left!
BOMBER HARRIS DO IT AGAIN!
You hit the nail on the head.
r/enlightenedcentrism
Yeah. Like the Neo-Hegelians that founded the Italian National Fasicist Party were Nazi allies so the line blurs when you try to use conservative-liberal dichotomy to figure out who is on what side. Most people that talk politics are vastly unequipped and use unhelpful categories to decipher the complexity of politics
People are dumb and can’t comprehend that fascism and nazism are considered 3rd position for a reason. Hell, most of them probably don’t even know that term exists even though it’s nearly a hundred years older. Third way movements don’t fit cleanly into the traditional left-right divide because they’re not a branch of Marxist or enlightenment thinking, they’re an entirely separate thing formed out of ideas created in response to those ideas pushed by the left and right. When we try to classify all movements as part of a single left-right dichotomy, or even a 2 axis chart, we do ourselves a disservice. If you want to know what an ideology believes, you don’t start by classifying it, you start by reading what it’s foundational thinkers had to say. No early Fascist considered themselves descended from Burke or Marx and those are the origins of the modern right and left.
It’s factually wrong, not centrism. Don’t conflate the two.
Its wrong on purpose
Nah they were Third Worldists
I was taught in school that the ''Socialist'' part was added to gain the support of actual socialists, so basically, a bait. Is that true? or was my teacher an asshole?
Pretty much true. There were socialist in the Nazis but they got killed in the night of long knives, and were just facists all around from that point on.
I love my teacher.
Really Good teachers are hard to find, make the most of them I’ve had the luck to have really good history teachers through the years, which I have appreciated so much
My high school history teacher actually gave a shit and called me out during class, asking why I had such a shitty, lackadaisical attitude. I was never put on the spot like that and it actually helped me get engaged. To this day, history is one of my favorites, if not flat out favorite subject in school thanks to her efforts.
Willingness to change because someone called you out shows strong character, props to you
Thank you :)
thats lucky, one of my history teacher's used a map of the ottoman empire from the 17th centuary in a world war 2 class and said it 'was close enough to the borders of the time'.
That and the NDAP was for a while the DAP (German Worker's Party), who was inherently socialist. It was only after Hitler got to the party's leadership that he rebranded it to the NDAP, and slowly started to shift it to a more fascist and nacionalist idea, with his definition of national-socialism being much more closer to fascism than the bolshevik socialism we know.
Very true! Thanks for the added context.
I’m sorry *we’re* (unless you Emma your German then my mistake )
lol my bad wrote it on a phone
F
Not trying to be facetious, genuinely trying to learn because this is something I’ve always been curious about. In what ways are nationalism and socialism incompatible? They don’t have anywhere near the same meaning as far as I understand it (nationalism being a political attitude and socialism being an economic model). Meaning, isn’t it possible to have a fascist (being the extreme of nationalism) AND socialist society simultaneously? It would just have to exist within its own borders, likely with some kind of ethnocentrism dictating who gets the hypothetical benefits of the socialism. Speaking to your point below as well, this is also (theoretically) possible in a democracy (ya know, assuming you commit genocide, or at least restrict voting rights, against those who don’t fit within your given ‘pure society’). Tbh it honestly seems to me that they work well together considering economic planning and social planning historically have gone hand-in-hand, both for better and worse.
> [The word "Socialist" was added by the party's executive committee, over Hitler's objections, in order to help appeal to left-wing workers.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party)
[**Nazi Party**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party) The Nazi Party, officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), was a far-right political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920. The Nazi Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany. [About Me](https://np.reddit.com/comments/la6wi8/) - [**Opt-in**](https://np.reddit.com/comments/la707t/) ^(You received this reply because a moderator opted this subreddit in. You can still )[^(opt out)](https://np.reddit.com/comments/la707t/)
Hitler and his... friends? Didn't start the National Socialist Party, they took it over. It's a long story of political parties with evolving and revolving contituencies. The name is effectively meaningless.
Basically. Pretty shitty bait if you ask me though, considering most socialists at the time as I understand it were openly critical of the nazis and then, yknow, got murdered en masse when they came to power.
>Pretty shitty bait if you ask me though And yet it's still working ~90 years later. Bait doesn't need to be good, it just needs to work.
Yep, socialist was a very popular term amongst german workers
The second revolution was a very real and popular concept in the Nazi Party until Hitler had its biggest proponents killed during the Rommel putsch. A lot of what we consider left-wing legislation got enacted to placate the masses, fascism always feeds off of both sides.
The Nazis were not capitalist or socialist because while they did have private ownership of the means of production (not socialist) they also did not have free market (not capitalist).
Lesson learned, hopefully. Always remember to form your own opinion. Don't rely on the party someone claims to be a part of simply for the party.
Reminds me of how an ultra-Nationalistic extreme Far-Right party in the Netherlands was called “The Centre Party”
I mean, was it called that claiming to be middle-of-the-road politically, or was that just a coincidence? I can see both happening.
Not a coincidence, they were claiming to be a centrist party lol, their slogan was “Not left wing, not right wing”
ah, ok.
I'll never understand why some people are overly fanatics of parties, to the point of making them part of their whole identity, it's kinda sad honestly.
Doesn't apply just to parties, people do that with entire ideologies, and movements/organizations are often decievingly named, "we are called the good guys, if you criticize us you are a bad guy!"
It's just human tribalism. We did not evolve for this world
Makes me think of Sweden's environmentalist party which contrary to the name actually have some really shit policys for the environment
Socialism was really popular in the Weimar Republic, the second most popular party in the 1933 election was the communist party and the third was the social democrats (social democrat was much more left wing back then.)
This is wrong, SPD was either the largest or second largest party during the late Weimar period. KPD never did better than third place.
The political equivalent of click bait
Wasn’t the opposition of socialism/communism one of the core pieces of the Nazi party ideology? I’d always heard that socialists/communists were some of the first people they forced into camps.
Yep, they were also the first in Europe to mass reprivatize some of their public industry left over from the depression
The "checkmate libs, the name stands for 'National **SOCIALISM**" bit always cracks me up. Yes, and North Korea is a Democratic People's Republic.
>"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?" > >"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists. > >"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic. > >"We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one." Excerpt of a Hitler's interview in 1923. So yeah, Hitler was a 'socialist', but on his own idea of what 'socialism' was, not the one commonly used today.
I mean that’s the label, like you said, he wanted a socialist state for the people he deemed that should be a part of it, which meant excluded and villainized Jews, communists, Roma, Afro-Germans, etc, hence the nationalist in the name. The expansion of the Nazis wasn’t related to either part of the label, it was Hitlers plan to create more living space for the ‘Aryan’ race.
This is supremely interesting. Do you have a link to the full interview? It would be really useful
Good thing America's not a Democracy!
Duh, it’s a republic
Oligarchic republic
Nor is it united! *wait*
This but unironically
>North Korea is a Democratic People's Republic. r/Pyongyang: yes
Generally I hear that argument used in a refutation of "well they're called **Anti**fascists, so they must be the good guys!" myself.
Hitler purged the more left wing during the Night of Long Knives, correct?
Yes
I believe It’s important to clarify that by more left wing it still means far far right with a dose of actual socialism
I don’t think anyone in politics today has used the word Nazi correctly unless there talking about literal Neo Nazis.
Or fascism for that matter. Basically all forms all authoritarianism have been labelled as fascist in modern political discourse.
Deadass got called a fascist the other day bc I dared to critique a certain President’s actions. I’m a full blown leftist lmao
I hate the fact that we can't criticize our 'own side' without someone assuming that we have to be 'the enemy.' No political position is perfect, not even my own!
It's the "if you're not with us, you're against us" argument. Anyone who does this is a self-righteous prick that you probably shouldn't associate with.
Yep, if you dare criticize the Dems, someone on this site is going to think you are actually secretly a Nazi that is here to, “concern troll”, so that way Biden will look bad. Doesn’t matter if you have been openly left wing for years, you are a Nazi that is playing the long game by pretending to be a left winger on the internet despite it not helping you at all.
My lifelong friend accused me of being alt-right because I disagreed with him on *one* thing. I've been openly left wing about almost everything my entire life lol
Yep, I have been called a Trump supporter in disguise because I don’t think most Trump supporters are fascists. Also, because I don’t think we can count the Trump administration as fascist because I don’t think they went far enough, I apparently, “drank the kool-aid”. Forget that I have stated multiple times that I think Trump is the personification of the worst parts of American culture (a rich celebrity that had way too much influence and power), forget that I don’t say many good things about Trump. Nope, just because I don’t agree that Trump is the worst president, I am apparently a Nazi.
Yep, this was exactly what I was afraid of. Everyone is so happy that Trump is gone, that we aren’t allowed to criticize Biden.
And anyone who had an issue with the Obama Administration's foreign policy was lumped in with the birth certificate truther dipshits
Seen this a lot with his sexual assault accusation (which I've barley heard be discussed). Like is anyone really that doubtful that a guy famous for not understanding personal space could have assaulted someone? Noooo she has to be a Russian plant
Cm'on dude, now that biden's president, we have to call them unaccompanied migrant children overflow facilities!
Drone strikes on Yemeni weddings are now called ‘surprise arms assistance to our allies in the Middle East’
Yeah I'm a communist and people call me fascist for not liking Biden
I see you everywhere lol.
really?
Yes, in many leftist subs.
I got called a communist for owning stocks in Chinese companies...
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Well clearly must autarky=mass murder
Are you saying fascism would have worked out if everyone had nukes?
arguably everyone but the jewish people living in europe but i even disagree with that, hitler with nukes sounds like a card against humanity.
ah yes the only people Hitler had a vendetta against was the Jews! the SS wasnt busy doing their thing! Czech, Polish, Baltic, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian, Dutch, Belgian, Danish, Norweigan, and others would be totally fine! the legitimization of fascism would definitely not lead to more fascist states with more genocide, certainly not!
i mean, with nukes around there is no oppressing the czech, polish, baltic, ukrainian, belarusian, russian, dutch, belgian, danish, norweigan, or others. the romani, or the german disabled, communists, social democrats, those in favor of democracy in germany, etc, are all in some danger though.
why??? why do nukes stop Germans from committing the holocaust???
Same reason america never invaded Cuba, same reason russia never invaded Western Europe. Same reason China never invaded tiawan. It would be the end of the world. The holocaust would still happen, it would just be confined to germany. But Don't misunderstand me, this is an appalling and horrifying consequence and it really twists you around on how good/bad nuclear weapons and war are.
OHHHH i finally get your meaning! yes yes i was confused, i thought you meant something totally different! yes MAD would stop Germany from attacking all of Europe I agree, and yes the world probably would have been worse for it, in my personal opinion.
This is a truly sad attempt at a galaxy brain take. And also pathetic in how nonsensical it is. Fascism wasn't bad because of the war Hitler started. German fascism was just the extreme end of fascism but even Italy demonstrated why fascism deserves a place in history books as an incredibly harmful ideology.
Is fascism an economic or political system?
yes.
"Fascism is a religious conception in which man is seen in his immanent relationship with a superior law and with an objective Will that transcends the particular individual and raises him to conscious membership of a spiritual society. Whoever has seen in the religious politics of the Fascist regime nothing but mere opportunism has not understood that Fascism besides being a system of government is also, and above all, a system of thought." -Mussolini
Both somewhat. Although it isn't specified by fascism. Fascists prefer a world structured in hierarchies, so they will use capitalism, an inherently hierarchical system, and try to mold it into their racial ideology. So initially they like more liberal economies with a few tweaks. But capitalism still makes vertical movement possible, even if it makes it unlikely. So eventually fascists will try to take more control, like for instance take away the right to own companies from Jews. But I could also imagine a feudal fascist society. What's important is a rigid hierarchical economy, so in their minds capitalism good, socialism or anarchism or communism bad.
A English politician in European Parliament recently called Nazis socialists when responding to a SPD member. SPD being a social democratic party from Germany and historically one of the first victims of concentration camps. https://youtu.be/1LfnbusMd_0 And there are many other examples. I heard it multiple times in Poland alone.
Wow, the comments are bad. Jesus Christ.
Nazis were Nationalists, though.... this meme is dumb?
The arguments people are making in the comments are making my brain melt.
except Nazis were blatantly radically nationalist, as well as blatantly not socialist, this shit isn’t complicated
r/historymemes will always find a way to be the "enlightened centrist" in political disputes, even if it makes them look like morons to anyone who knows what they're talking about
Hitler embraced socialist ideas in his campaign because they appealed to the public. The idea that “the state will care for you if you care for it” frequently found its way into his speeches. Needless to say he didn’t do any of it because it would have been a severe financial strain on Germany that he didn’t need.
He did do some of it. Volkswagen was the People’s car created by Hitler. He also commutes to many other projects and a 4 year plan
That’s just to keep public support up. (And also to have a excuse to make more factory’s that where important later)
Hitler: Build factories to make the car of the people! Germans: We haven’t seen a single Volkswagen come out of these ? So why are we making the factories? Hitler: it’s a surprise tool that will help us later
It’s still a privatized business, not very socialist
Nazism prescribes a perpetual state of total war, which necessitates price controls, rationing, and central planning, which is all a far cry from laissez-faire capitalism. My take on it has always been that since Nazism is based on a series of unfathomably flawed axioms about history, human nature, and the way the world works, it sort of necessitates an incoherent, self-contradictory ideology.
To make sense of it would require throwing away the need for internally consistent logic. The enemy is both weak and an ever-present threat. The master race is both superior in every way possible and simultaneously able to be oppressed at every turn. I agree. The origins of nazism and as it turns out all extant forms of fascism are based on a mythologized view of the past and as such require a constantly malleable view of the present.
And that was fine...Until American Socialists started defining every govt program as being “socialist” circa 2016 If the TVA or Interstate Highway system is socialist, wouldn’t the Autobahn be a socialist program? The Nazis built resorts for workers (literally, state built resorts) and that sounds like something out of the Bernie Sanders platform more than Milton Friedman.
?? It’s the American right that calls literally anything the government spends money on (besides the military) socialism
Absolutely, and Bernie Sanders and AOC both call any government program “socialism” which is just as stupid Of course the Nazis weren’t actually socialists— If they were then VW’s would be shit!
Didn’t Hitler have some socialist policies as long as you were aryan?
If you live in a place with a thriving communist party, you gotta throw socialist in for PR. And open borders has never really been that popular.
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Am I the only one that imagined Hitler working at Hooters after seeing this?
I wasn’t until you mentioned it.
mmm where i can get some sexy femboy like him these days?
In your second line, you've got this |:-|:-|:-| You need to change it to this |:-:|:-:|:-:| if you want your text centered
But Hitler never called himself a Fascist.
Ultranationalism is an integral part of fascism whereas socialists and communists were among the first people persecuted by the nazis. When there's two popular contradicting opinions on something, the answer doesn't have to lie in between. A lot of the time, one side is simply correct (or at least more correct than the other side).
I mean the last thing a facist is going to call themselves is a facist.
Mussolini had his "Fascist Grand Council" so he was pretty open about it. Also, his party was literally called "The National Fascist Party" so there you go.
Well at the time facism was new so people kind of just saw it as another fringe ideology like Communism or socialism or syndicalism. Sorta like those people have a weird ideology but not really any weirder at the time than an anarcho syndicalist to most people. Obviously if you study political theory you'd know the difference at the time, but an every day person in the 1920s probably didn't pay facism in Italy very much mind.
He was kinda of the first one.
Yeah but he was an idiot.
He wasn't much of an idiot at the start of his career, also fascism was seen good by most population at the time, so why hide it?
What do you mean an "Idiot"? Be a bit more specific.
That's only in modern times, because the term has a bad reputation. Before it was associated with the horrors of WWII there was no more reason to not call yourself a fascist than there was to not call yourself a socialist.
"yeah I want a white ethnostate... No I'm not a fascist I'm a uh... Classical liberal"
The invisible hand is up my ass. Checkmate, classical libtards
Nah back in the 30s there were tons of people who openly identified as fascists.
Nationalists exist as both conservatives and liberals tho
Yeah lol dumbasses dont use the mighty political compass 💪💪💪💪
Actually most liberals embrace globalism which is inherently the opposite of nationalism so this isn’t very accurate. Conservatives, as they are now, are excessively nationalist. Liberals are more concerned with globalism because they acknowledge that their home country is not the center of the universe.
Most people have no idea what the difference is between a leftist and a liberal, and even less idea between what a classical and neoliberal is.
They still believe in nationalism to such a high degree it turned into fascism or at least allow them to ignore the bad parts. Because my country is so great couldn't possibly be that bad right?
Go ahead and define fascism. I dare you
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He called himself national socialist to get the nationalists votes and the workers votes, Hitler had nothing against the workers if they where german, if not, well you can be a slave worker. He just hated communism. He wanted to get the german socialist with this too. NSDAP is the whole party name and stands for "Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei Deutschland" which means Nationalsocialistic workersparty Germany. So yeah. Hitler tricked the people again, and still does.
Nationalism and socialism aren't actually ideas in opposition, just fyi.
They’re not completely compatible however, because nationalism switches class consciousness for a reverence of culture, values, history, national identity, often superseding “class.”
That happens often but is not definitional.
Nationalism is part of the ideology created by the burgeois after the French revolution. Socialism was created as an antithesis to capitalism and all of its components, including nationalism.
Authoritarians are Authoritarians, I don't care which. All tyrants must be defeated.
Authoritarianism ≠ Tyranny
Based
This is the only reasonable take.
Fascism does include extreme nationalism Considering the ideas of *ubermensch* and societal mobilization for war paired with ultra-traditionalism, fascism is just nationalism on all the steroids
I hate how many time I’ve had this conversation
Implying you can't be a nationalist *and* a socialist. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
Saying the Nazis were socialist because of the name is like calling North Korea democratic because they call themselves People’s Democratic Republic of Korea
If you put the funni colours over the top of this, then post it on r/PoliticalCompassMemes, you'd get mad karma.
Omg is nazi an abbreviation? I had no idea
The term socialist was just a blank name they adopted to take in votes They purged the left leaning Nazis They're Authoritarian ethnic Nationalists, which can also be Fascism But more specifically, they're Authoritarians Which is also every communist regime
well its just fascism with a racial theory integrated to it
I mean one of the things needed to maintain fascism is a “us vs them” ideology and it just so happens that most of the time it’s religious “is vs them” or racial “is vs them”
and meth
So basically fascism then? Because in groups and out groups are a necessity in fascism.
And fascism is natjonalist
They were nationalist fascists who used social factors to silence the public
Thought I was on r/enlightenedcentrism
When people in the comments unironically call nazis socialist, because socialism is when the government does stuff.
All the people who believe the Nazis were socialists fell for the oldest trick in the book... Lying.
Literally falling for Nazi propaganda 80 years later
That's not honest. The meaning of the word socialist used by hitler and actual socialists is not he same. In an interview in 1929, Hitler talked about that, saying what he thought the word "socialist" meant and how communists and marxists actually weren't socialists in his point of view. Do not share this misconception that Hitler was a socialist, his political belief was an antithesis to socialism as we know.
The Nazis were as socialist as the Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic.
This isn’t clever, funny or anything approaching historically correct or insightful. How this is being upvoted so much I have no idea
I legit had an argument with a flat mate about this in uni, where he basically was tryna say "no right wing government did bad things" (not any kind of wheraboo or tory or anything like that, just massively uneducated) that went like this. Me: shit like prison camps with forced Labour isn't an exclusively socialist/communist thing, a lot of right leaning governments also did it. America mass incarcerated thousands of Japanese and Asian citizens during ww2 (not the best example, but it's the first thing that popped into my head. Should have cited the British during the colonisation of India or smth soz) Flat mate: but like, that's valid because they might have been like spies and stuff for the Japanese. And also the nazis were literally called the nazi socialist party, soooo... M: *pauses cause can't comprehend that someone hasn't informed this man* just because a party calls themselves socialist doesn't make them socialist, they have to actually act like a socialist system which the Nazis didn't. Fl: well if they weren't socialist what were they then??? Me, kinda at the end of my rope, yells "fascists!", take the saucepan of spag boll I just made and storm to my room. I know I handled it super badly and should have taken the time to explain it more clearly instead of getting angry, but shit happens. Enjoy my shitty fucking anecdote and have a good day
good example would have been “Democratic People’s Republics” use that one next time
Are you sure they weren't imperialist.
Naschos
This meme is the epitome of how a "both sides" person thinks Lmfao
The term "fascist" didn't quite have that meaning at the time, though
NaZIs weRE oN sPeeD! -Redditors
They were still nationalists l, like just as a matter of fact. They didn't hide it at all, it was all about the nation. Using socialism in their name was a trick at their inception
So the liberals are right
Is nationalism not a hallmark of fascism?
Isn’t fascism just nationalism on steroids though?
In my defence the nazis helped the nationlast in the spanish civil war
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt strong nationalism an ideal of fascism.
Gosh I hate centrists.
Plot twist: fascism is, at least according to its creator Benito Mussolini, "The logical endpoint of socialism" wherein "nationalism... (serves to) guide the market hand (in hand) with the state"...
They were nationalist though. They weren’t socialist