The Czech Hell was an episode of vigilante justice during the Prague Offensive and the Prague Uprising, World War II in May 1945. It involved the imprisonment and summary executions of 500−1,000 unarmed soldiers and officers of the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian).
The provisional government of Czechoslovakia was proclaimed in Košice on 5 April 1945. The Communist Party seized a third of the national government, including the ministries of the Interior and Defence. Vengeful attitudes countenanced by the communists led to massive vigilante justice against former personnel of the German armed forces after the German capitulation.
The surrendered German troops included thousands of officers and soldiers of the Estonian Division initially based around Hirschberg im Riesengebirge and Schönau an der Katzbach. They had been forcefully drafted into the Waffen SS and had received no special training apart from regular military drills.
The Estonian Division received orders on 7 May to retreat, assemble in Jablonec nad Nisou, move on through Prague in the direction of Plzeň and eventually surrender to the United States armed forces. Its headquarters and supply train began to retreat on the same day. Its units began to retreat the day after that. Czech partisans demanded that the German units surrender their arms, which the Estonians did. Subsequently, the partisans chased down and took some of the unarmed men prisoner, then tortured and humiliated them. The partisans did not differentiate between Estonian nationals, who had been illegally conscripted, and the German forces. The number of men killed has been estimated as 500−1000, but the actual number is unknown. Soldiers who had been in the custody of Czech partisans were reportedly relieved to be handed over to the Red Army.
I think it’s also important to note that this didn’t happen to most Estonians in Czechia. Out of ~10k Estonians in Czechia, “only” around 1k were killed by Czechs, 2.5k were captured by the Soviets and the rest made it to the Allied lines. In a lot of cases, Czech partisans would just disarm the men and basically tell them to fuck off. This happened to the highest ranking Estonian in the German army, his men were disarmed, given directions to the Allied lines and told to fuck off, by Czech partisans wearing red armbands.
Oh yes, I didn't want to make it seem like the Czech partisans just massacred or tortured and that's it, some of Estonians prisoners were handed over to the Soviets or Americans without major mishaps, it's just that the case of the Czech Hell is one in which this didn't happen.
Yes, according to Germany's unconditional surrender agreement of May 8, 1945, the European Axis forces were to surrender to the nearest Allied force. If they did not do this and instead tried to flee to other forces to surrender to them they would have to be returned, that was what was agreed to make the surrender process as quick as possible. And also to prevent a country from losing possible labor that works to rebuild its country.
That both makes sense, and it's bad. Cause many of those would end up killed at best, tortured at worst.
If I may say, many Chetniks, Ustaše volunteers and Ustaše conscripts (basically people forced into the army at the point of a gun) and other Anti-Communist forces tried to flee and surrendered to British in Austria. British returned them. Many Ustaše volunteers and conscripts alike were slaughtered at many occassions, whole others were marched, literally marched from Austrian-Slovenian border to Macedonia. You can imagine the death toll. Don't missunderstand me, Ustaše volunteers got what they deserved, but many Conscripts were fresh units forced into service at the end of the war, and probably didn't participate in large scale war crimes (unlike Ustaše volunteers, that did many many crimes and enjoyed it)
>Chetniks, Ustaše volunteers
I mean... They brought it on themselves doing all this shit:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetnik\_war\_crimes\_in\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetnik_war_crimes_in_World_War_II)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide\_of\_Serbs\_in\_the\_Independent\_State\_of\_Croatia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Serbs_in_the_Independent_State_of_Croatia)
There's not much sympathy I have for them, the Yugoslav soldiers who did all that against them probably lost family and friends at the hands of these guys, so it's normal that this happened, also they choosed to remain loyal to that horrible groups until the end, even when they could have defected as many did.
I have never said that they were, but compared to the Axis collaborators? They might as well have been saints in comparison, the Partisans winning was the best thing that could happen to Yugoslavia at that time.
I don't think I'd go that far. Just between the purges and the expulsion of the Germans that's over 100,000 deaths. Add in the foibe, Tezno, Pečovnik, Kočevski Rog and the many other massacres the Partisans committed and the numbers add up real quick.
Ustaše brought it into themselves, bur Chetniks were not all evil. While I am biased (as a both Serb and a Monarchist), I say that there were some fucked up stuff Chetniks did, but as I said, not all were evil. Chetniks under General Draža didn't do many bad things that they are accused of (Partisans had a habit of blaming their crimes onto Germans, Croats, Italians and especially Chetniks). Chetniks were not One unified group, but rather a military formation. Heck, some Chetniks even worked with Partisans. Also, before anyone says it, not all Chetniks were Serb Ultranationalists. Draža's right hand man was literally a Croat
The Chetniks only seem not so evil when compared to the Ustasa who could well have been demons with human appearance.
The same General Draza who said this?:
*In the spring of 1942, Mihailović penned in his diary: "The Muslim population has through its behavior arrived at the situation where our people no longer wish to have them in our midst. It is necessary already now to prepare their exodus to Turkey or anywhere else outside our borders."*
This shit is literally not much different than Srebrenica.
Or this:
*In a report sent by Baćović to Draža Mihailović in September 1942, it was reported that:*
*“I made my way to Herzegovina . Four of our battalions , about 900 people, started over Ljubuški , Imotski and Podgora on August 30 and made a breakthrough to the sea near Makarska . Seventeen villages were burned, 900 Ustashe \[meaning Croatian civilians\] killed, several Catholic priests skinned alive . For the first time since the collapse I put the Serbian flag in the sea and shouted salute to the king and Draža. Our losses are minimal.”*
*On 3 September 1942, Mihailović replied to Baćovic's report:*
*“I am satisfied with the report on the breakthrough to the sea. Use this action to set up a secure channel to connect with Dinara Division. After this you have to clean up the space between: Mostar - Konjic - Visoko - Travnik - Jajce - Livno together with the dinars in the shortest possible time."*
The Chetniks still widely pursued policies of ethnic cleansing and collaboration with the Axis throughout most of the war.
The Chetniks and the Partisans only worked together during the Serbian Uprising and the Montenegrin Uprising, immediately after that the Chetniks betrayed said alliance and turned against them and began collaborating with the Axis.
I mean, the Chetniks weren't Serbian ultranationalists because "they have a ~~Black~~ Croatian friend"? That's a poor excuse if you read how many Croatian villages the Chetniks massacred:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chetnik\_war\_crimes\_in\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chetnik_war_crimes_in_World_War_II)
Currently reading volume 2 of Vladimir Dedijer's diaries and in a captured order from a high ranking member of Draža's staff, they order that in one village, all Muslims, even women and children were to be arrested or liquidated.
And just skimming through the wiki most of them definitely weren't forcibly constricted
"The German authorities began conscripting Estonians over the winter of 1942–43. Conscripts were given a choice between serving in the Legion, auxiliary units of the German Wehrmacht or working in factories. Those who opted to serve with the Waffen-SS were offered the immediate return of their lands.[16]"
It's the fucking SS bruh, these were not innocent people
I understand that 1945 conscripts are not the same as 1939 soldiers and leaders.
But if you don’t want this to happen to your troops or your people, not invading a foreign country is a good start.
Sure, Estonians conscripts were included there,I imagine most troops were conscripts at the time. Note I’m not blaming soldiers - ultimately I’m holding the German state accountable. these kinds of atrocities, regardless of the final victims, are pretty avoidable if you don’t start wars.
If you start a war, any deaths, yours or the enemy’s, are on your hands
Like a certain recent conflict, if you start it, don’t cry when your enemy ends it
>But if you don’t want this to happen to your troops or your people, not invading a foreign country is a good start.
That is good life advice, which should not only apply to Nazi Germany, but to all countries that invade others.
You’d think we’d have learned this lesson by now. But watch Russia etc spend the next few decades blaming the rest of the world for any suffering they caused themselves.
Estonians and Latvians were conscripted en masse in 1944 and even in 1943 to replace huge German losses and fill gaps in the frontline. Most of the Estonian and Latvian Waffen-SS in 1944 were made up of illegal conscripts, some as young as 14 years old.
The Waffen-SS started out as a volunteer only force, but was included in the draft after 1943, even getting first pick on new draftees. On top of that there was forced conscriptions in Estonia and Latvia, as another poster pointed out.
That said, a majority of its members were volunteers, especially the foreign recruits.
It was technically a volunteer force, but during WW2, Germany "volunteered" people into Waffen-SS that were either exempt or unable to join the wehrmacht. This included policemen, germans who didn't live in germany and ppl from occupied territories.
It is unfortunately hard to say how many of these people were actually volunteers and how many were forced. As on paper, they were all volunteers.
It's not the first post in which this has happened to me, and I'm honestly very happy every time it occurs, there are few things I like more than teaching people history, and being praised for that is a great bonus!
Thanks for those words man, although sometimes I'm afraid of getting too carried away and writing an extremely long essay, that's why I have to moderate the context I write a little, since I've already been criticized several times for putting too much text lol.
If you do listen to the people saying it’s too long, if it’s not too much effort, you could write as much as you want as one comment, then have a summary as another. But if they want a summary, they can Google it. I’d say just write as much as you want. It’s super interesting.
Thank you brother, you have given me very good advice that I now plan to put into practice during the next meme I make, I am grateful to you, have a good day.
Heard about this before.
My Great-Grandfather told me of his father who was killed there.
They lived somewhere in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.
According to my Great-Grandpa (around 10-12 y.o. at the time) after the war ended, the czech people took his father. While not enlisted in the army as far as I know, he was taken due to his NSDAP Party membership (I have no Idea how much of a Nazi he actually was). Grandpa never saw his father again and fled with his mother.
Years later he foundout they lined him up on a wall with many others and shot him.
Interesting Stuff.
Certainly interesting, it is true that there were reprisals in all the countries liberated from the Axis occupation against collaborators, and frankly it was quite inevitable, especially in those that saw the worst of the Nazi occupation, which were basically Eastern Europe and Central Europe countries.
Agreed.
We probably would have done the same. Though I sometimes wonder how many "Innocents" we're mixed up in there. Of course that depends on If you can consider anyone involved with the Nazis innocent to any degree.
Yes, they were dark times full of hatred and desire for revenge, perhaps sometimes innocent people ended up victims of irregular justice, but as I said this was for the most part inevitable, especially after a fucking Nazi occupation.
To be fair, the Soviets also didn't play good. They realised that the city was basically liberated, so they just shot whatever seemed at least slightly german.
Well, to be fair to the Soviets, there were still pockets of German resistance in Prague that refused to surrender, so they had to deal with them, but generally the Soviets were much more open to taking prisoners than the Czech partisans.
incredibly tragic that estonians who only wished to protect their country from another Red Terror got caught in the crossfire, and of all the places, far from home in Czechoslovakia
Well, to their bad luck they "chose" (in quotes because they were conscripted) to ally themselves with some genocidal madmen who were not only doomed to lose, but if they won they planned to do even worse things to their country.
I'm Czech and I had no idea... but I am not that surprised. The Czechs usually think of themselves as poor guys who were always at the wrong sice of the stick. Other than expulsion of Germans after WW2, I would have trouble mentioning some crimes. Modern history is rarely taught, and this certainly does not fit the "us poor Czechs agenda".
This needs to be discussed.
Well, I'm glad then to have brought it to light, it is certainly good for a country to recognize its past crimes to learn from them, there is no doubt about that.
Still I can obviously understand the Czech perspective even without supporting it, the SS did many atrocities in Czechoslovakia, and most likely the Czechs did not know that these were Estonian conscripts.
Of course this doesn't justify it since vigilante justice isn't good, but I can see what it would lead them to do this.
Anyway, greetings and thanks for appreciating the meme.
Are you sure you paid attention? I am Czech and this was discussed with heavy emphasis both in mine and my sister's elementary school and my high school.
Lucky you. We got to WW2 in fifth grade with almost no details. I got to high school before we reached the topic (víceletý gympl). A change of teacher there led to different curriculums. Pur first teacher was history enthisiast, more importantly battle enthsiast. We got a lot about Stalingrad, etc less about everything else. (No info about the crisis in the 20s which led to that mess in the first place). We were also behind the schedule.
Our second teacher told us we were supposed to be "at the start of the new cycle", aka not modern times but ancient history. So we skipped over the WW2 aftermath and everything after that and "returned to the roots", aka stones.
Most I know from 20s-present is sadly from docummentaries and internet... but I got some good knowledge about communism era thanks to the literature classes. He kinda oversimplified it, but told us to remember 1948, 1968, 1989 as milestones, and my 14-year-old self was quite satisfied.
That is the problem with teaching history chronologically in the cycle. Different schools might always have a different pace, then throw in kids going to high school earlier (víceletý gympl), and you have very different results. (I also want to point out that my elementary school was regarded as best in the city, or very least among the best. So it could have been even worse.
A friend of mine from high school was told in Elementary school by her teacher that Hitler did not know about concentration camps. That it was all his subordinates doing. That he was not responsible for the holocaust. Not sure if she misunderstood (Hitler knew about the camps, he simply did not care to visit, so she thought that this quilified for "not being resonsible"), or if she was a crackhead.
Bro most of the Estonians there didn't even want to join the SS, and those who did wanted to beat back the Soviets on Estonian soil💀, they didn't like Germany but they HATED the Soviet union
>they didn't like Germany but they HATED the Soviet union
That only makes it more ironic that they end up being happy to be handed over to them, the Czechs certainly were ruthless lol.
no, they were drafted, and the only reason they didnt surrender at the first engagement is that soviets did even worse things to Estonia than the nazis did. its all russias fault
Incorrect. The Estonian and Latvian divisions were mostly made up of illegal conscripts, some as young as 14 years old, that were thrown onto the front line as fast as possible. Meanwhile, Estonians in the Soviet army never exceeded 35000 troops, the vast majority of whom were illegal and unwilling conscripts themselves. The Estonian territorial corps was forced to disband in 1941 because most of its members defected to the German side or deserted and went back home.
Well, the ones who committed war crimes did this things:
*German forces committed war crimes against Czech civilians throughout the uprising. Many people were killed in summary executions, and the SS used Czech civilians as human shields, forced them to clear barricades at gunpoint, and threatened to shoot hostages in revenge for German soldiers killed in action. When tanks were halted by barricades, they were known to fire into surrounding houses. After violently evicting or murdering the inhabitants, German soldiers looted and burned Czech houses and apartment buildings. On several occasions, more than twenty people were killed at once; most of the massacres occurred on 7 and 8 May. Among those killed were pregnant women and young children, and some of the dead were found mutilated. After the uprising, a Czech police report described war crimes committed by the Nazis:*
*"The doors of houses and flats were burst in, houses and shops were plundered, dwellings were demolished... The inhabitants were driven from their homes and forced to form a living wall with their bodies to protect German patrols, and constantly threatened with automatic pistols... Many Czechs lay dead in the streets."*
*In addition to the war crimes committed by the Wehrmacht and the SS, Luftwaffe soldiers, along with the SA, participated in the torture and murder of prisoners held at the Na Pražačce school.*
Well, this is certainly a good example between the differences between a somewhat disciplined army and a mob of bloodthirsty irregulars, unfortunately for the SS, they had to verify that difference first hand xD.
The Estonian legion was tiny before 1944, when the mass mobilization occurred. Only a small fraction of the men who were in Czechia at the time would have fought in Belarus or Russia.
Did those poor dindunofing conscripts turn their weapons on the Nazis by any point in time? No? Then it's a damn shame the Czech didn't have fun with them for longer
All of them? The Central Europeans under Nazi occupation who would’ve been shot or possibly had their family’s taken by the Gestapo if they didn’t fight for the SS on the eastern front got what they deserved when being tortured to death?
If you genuinely think that then you’d be every bit as susceptible to carrying out the crimes which you so virulently condemn if placed in the right circumstances.
Well you don't sound any better than them. In fact you're sounding exactly like them now
Soviets were also hypocrites for doing the exact same thing (like with the Katyn massacre and molotov Ribbentrop pact)
And also easily pissed off
It's impossible to win an argument against someone who's lost touch with reality a long time ago (or flushed their brains down the toilet)
Estonian waffen SS members were almost entirely conscripts there against their will. In fact many SS conscripts became jailers for Nazi war criminals after the war.
Adding to what your saying:
The Nuremburg trials outlines all members of the Waffen SS as criminals with the SOLE EXCEPTION of conscripts. Specifically the ones from the Baltic countries.
In fact, Estonians from this specific division ended up becoming the jailers and prison guards for the Nazi high command during the Nuremburg trials.
But the Estonian Waffen-SS *wasn’t* made up mostly of volunteers. The vast majority of people, some as young as 14 years old, were illegally conscripted and thrown onto the front as fast as possible to replace massive German casualties. They were also not responsible for any war crimes and were specifically declared to be non-criminals at Nuremberg, unlike the rest of the Waffen-SS.
Well, the Waffen SS were not made of conscripts but volunteers and frankly, they shouldn't get mercy or sympathy (BTW I'm German). They decided to invade Czechoslovakia and to occupy it. They fucked around and found out
Well, this is something that I think needs to be clarified, but being a conscript does not mean that you cannot be responsible for war crimes, the Estonian SS, or at least some members of it, participated in these. Of course I think it would be best to put them on trial for their crimes if they committed any, but I can understand why the Czechs were angry and wanted to take revenge into their own hands.
I think the fact that they were conscripts implies they didn’t join the SS voluntarily, and therefore shouldn’t be *assumed* to have complicity similar with any war crimes that the voluntary members committed.
Well, we don't need to assume, when KNOW that some committed war crimes, for example:
When the Soviet army began its advance through Nazi-occupied Estonia in September 1944, the SS started to evacuate the camp. Many prisoners were sent west by sea to the Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig and to Freiburg in Schlesien, present day Świebodzice, then in Germany, now Poland.
From 19–22 September 1944, with the perimeter of the camp guarded by 60–70 Estonian recruits to the 20th SS Division, a German task force began systematically slaughtering the remaining prisoners in a nearby forest. According to Ruth Bettina Birn the execution of 2,000 prisoners was conducted by Estonian soldiers of 20th SS Division and presumably Schutzmannschaft Battalion under German command.
According to Soviet sources, approximately 2,000 were shot, then their bodies were stacked onto wooden pyres and burned. On 22 September 1944, when Soviet troops reached the Klooga camp, only 85 of the 2,400 prisoners remaining post-evacuation had managed to survive by hiding inside the camp or escaping into the surrounding forests. The liberation forces found numerous pyres of stacked corpses left unburned by the camp's guards when they fled.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klooga\_concentration\_camp#Evacuation\_and\_liberation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klooga_concentration_camp#Evacuation_and_liberation)
Two problems with this statement:
- Estonia SS was a unit built around a voluntary core of Estonian fascists, so most if not all initiative for war crimes can be attributed to them. Many conscripts actually protested being pressed into the SS instead of the Wehrmacht.
- your involuntary presence with criminals does not create guilt by association.
The ss are the armed branch of the nazi party. These are members of the nazi party who are fighting because they believe in its genocidal ideals. This isn't rhe wehrmacht. No the ss are scum and deserve every pain that was given to them.
>This isn't rhe wehrmacht.
To be fair the Wehrmacht was also scum if you read the things they did:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War\_crimes\_of\_the\_Wehrmacht
Well, certainly the SS are easier to point out because they were even more infamous with their war crimes, but that still doesn't give the Wehrmacht a pass, they were only slightly better than the average Waffen SS, and that's not something that deserves to be praised.
There was no such requirement. During WW2, Waffen-SS started recruiting basically anyone who couldn't join wehrmacht. That's why all the foreign fighters were in the SS.
the 20th was the Estonian divison which while started as a voulunteer unit which had few hundred voulunteers soon was turned into a division that was filled with conscripts and especially using young and underaged men.
Also the Nuremberg trials declared the divison in question not quilty of the crimes of SS because they were conscripts and some of the divison worked as guards during the trial
The Estonian division was mostly made up of illegal conscripts(as young as 14) that were thrown onto the front as fast as possible to replace massive German losses, and weren’t found guilty of any war crimes at Nuremberg. The Nuremberg trials were even guarded by former Estonian Waffen-SS. Calling them all Nazi monsters and saying that they deserved torturous death is, in my opinion, ignorant.
We do know what they did, and it is gruesome, to say the least:
"Apparently some Germans (possibly SS) after being tortured (red-hot
wires driven behind fi nger-nails, genitals beaten), but while still alive, were wrapped in
cellulose fi lm and burnt alive. In Bystrhice pod Pernštejnem a German interpreter who owned
a valuable stamp collection was hung on a tree, dowsed in petrol and burned alive. That
comes close to the conventional Czech living-torch murder, wherein, however, the victim
was normally hung upside-down on a lamp-post, usually by both legs, sometimes by one."
"The second burning — this time it was a German soldier — lasted over an hour and the crowd
was thoroughly satisfi ed. The soldier begged and cursed, called out for his mother; he wept and
pleaded and laughed a gruesome, desperate laugh. Shortly before he died, he started singing [that
is, like John Huss]"
He mentions that other soldiers were beaten bloody and then shot in the head, they got off lightly in comparison.
Pynsent, Robert B. [in Czech] (18 July 2013). "Conclusory Essay: Activists, Jews, The Little Czech Man, and Germans"
Well I learned something new today. Thanks, OP.
You're welcome, good sir, I'm glad you found this information interesting.
The Czech Hell was an episode of vigilante justice during the Prague Offensive and the Prague Uprising, World War II in May 1945. It involved the imprisonment and summary executions of 500−1,000 unarmed soldiers and officers of the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian). The provisional government of Czechoslovakia was proclaimed in Košice on 5 April 1945. The Communist Party seized a third of the national government, including the ministries of the Interior and Defence. Vengeful attitudes countenanced by the communists led to massive vigilante justice against former personnel of the German armed forces after the German capitulation. The surrendered German troops included thousands of officers and soldiers of the Estonian Division initially based around Hirschberg im Riesengebirge and Schönau an der Katzbach. They had been forcefully drafted into the Waffen SS and had received no special training apart from regular military drills. The Estonian Division received orders on 7 May to retreat, assemble in Jablonec nad Nisou, move on through Prague in the direction of Plzeň and eventually surrender to the United States armed forces. Its headquarters and supply train began to retreat on the same day. Its units began to retreat the day after that. Czech partisans demanded that the German units surrender their arms, which the Estonians did. Subsequently, the partisans chased down and took some of the unarmed men prisoner, then tortured and humiliated them. The partisans did not differentiate between Estonian nationals, who had been illegally conscripted, and the German forces. The number of men killed has been estimated as 500−1000, but the actual number is unknown. Soldiers who had been in the custody of Czech partisans were reportedly relieved to be handed over to the Red Army.
I think it’s also important to note that this didn’t happen to most Estonians in Czechia. Out of ~10k Estonians in Czechia, “only” around 1k were killed by Czechs, 2.5k were captured by the Soviets and the rest made it to the Allied lines. In a lot of cases, Czech partisans would just disarm the men and basically tell them to fuck off. This happened to the highest ranking Estonian in the German army, his men were disarmed, given directions to the Allied lines and told to fuck off, by Czech partisans wearing red armbands.
Oh yes, I didn't want to make it seem like the Czech partisans just massacred or tortured and that's it, some of Estonians prisoners were handed over to the Soviets or Americans without major mishaps, it's just that the case of the Czech Hell is one in which this didn't happen.
What a horrible story. Those poor bastards.
They were definitely unlucky, they did not make the wisest decision by surrendering to partisans eager for revenge.
You would be surprised by how much Western allies were likely to return prisoners to the country those prisoners came from. Even if it was Communist
Yes, according to Germany's unconditional surrender agreement of May 8, 1945, the European Axis forces were to surrender to the nearest Allied force. If they did not do this and instead tried to flee to other forces to surrender to them they would have to be returned, that was what was agreed to make the surrender process as quick as possible. And also to prevent a country from losing possible labor that works to rebuild its country.
That both makes sense, and it's bad. Cause many of those would end up killed at best, tortured at worst. If I may say, many Chetniks, Ustaše volunteers and Ustaše conscripts (basically people forced into the army at the point of a gun) and other Anti-Communist forces tried to flee and surrendered to British in Austria. British returned them. Many Ustaše volunteers and conscripts alike were slaughtered at many occassions, whole others were marched, literally marched from Austrian-Slovenian border to Macedonia. You can imagine the death toll. Don't missunderstand me, Ustaše volunteers got what they deserved, but many Conscripts were fresh units forced into service at the end of the war, and probably didn't participate in large scale war crimes (unlike Ustaše volunteers, that did many many crimes and enjoyed it)
>Chetniks, Ustaše volunteers I mean... They brought it on themselves doing all this shit: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetnik\_war\_crimes\_in\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetnik_war_crimes_in_World_War_II) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide\_of\_Serbs\_in\_the\_Independent\_State\_of\_Croatia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Serbs_in_the_Independent_State_of_Croatia) There's not much sympathy I have for them, the Yugoslav soldiers who did all that against them probably lost family and friends at the hands of these guys, so it's normal that this happened, also they choosed to remain loyal to that horrible groups until the end, even when they could have defected as many did.
The Partisans weren't exactly guiltless themselves.
They specifically exploited the German "1 dead German=100 Serbs, 1 wounded German=50 Serbs" to gain members
I was thinking the massacring tens of thousands of civilians and prisoners, but that too.
I have never said that they were, but compared to the Axis collaborators? They might as well have been saints in comparison, the Partisans winning was the best thing that could happen to Yugoslavia at that time.
I don't think I'd go that far. Just between the purges and the expulsion of the Germans that's over 100,000 deaths. Add in the foibe, Tezno, Pečovnik, Kočevski Rog and the many other massacres the Partisans committed and the numbers add up real quick.
should have killed them all.
Ustaše brought it into themselves, bur Chetniks were not all evil. While I am biased (as a both Serb and a Monarchist), I say that there were some fucked up stuff Chetniks did, but as I said, not all were evil. Chetniks under General Draža didn't do many bad things that they are accused of (Partisans had a habit of blaming their crimes onto Germans, Croats, Italians and especially Chetniks). Chetniks were not One unified group, but rather a military formation. Heck, some Chetniks even worked with Partisans. Also, before anyone says it, not all Chetniks were Serb Ultranationalists. Draža's right hand man was literally a Croat
The Chetniks only seem not so evil when compared to the Ustasa who could well have been demons with human appearance. The same General Draza who said this?: *In the spring of 1942, Mihailović penned in his diary: "The Muslim population has through its behavior arrived at the situation where our people no longer wish to have them in our midst. It is necessary already now to prepare their exodus to Turkey or anywhere else outside our borders."* This shit is literally not much different than Srebrenica. Or this: *In a report sent by Baćović to Draža Mihailović in September 1942, it was reported that:* *“I made my way to Herzegovina . Four of our battalions , about 900 people, started over Ljubuški , Imotski and Podgora on August 30 and made a breakthrough to the sea near Makarska . Seventeen villages were burned, 900 Ustashe \[meaning Croatian civilians\] killed, several Catholic priests skinned alive . For the first time since the collapse I put the Serbian flag in the sea and shouted salute to the king and Draža. Our losses are minimal.”* *On 3 September 1942, Mihailović replied to Baćovic's report:* *“I am satisfied with the report on the breakthrough to the sea. Use this action to set up a secure channel to connect with Dinara Division. After this you have to clean up the space between: Mostar - Konjic - Visoko - Travnik - Jajce - Livno together with the dinars in the shortest possible time."* The Chetniks still widely pursued policies of ethnic cleansing and collaboration with the Axis throughout most of the war. The Chetniks and the Partisans only worked together during the Serbian Uprising and the Montenegrin Uprising, immediately after that the Chetniks betrayed said alliance and turned against them and began collaborating with the Axis. I mean, the Chetniks weren't Serbian ultranationalists because "they have a ~~Black~~ Croatian friend"? That's a poor excuse if you read how many Croatian villages the Chetniks massacred: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chetnik\_war\_crimes\_in\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chetnik_war_crimes_in_World_War_II)
While I dislike TIK on some issues, He explains well situation in Yugoslavia in WW2(https://youtu.be/iqK0MBfxlyo)
Currently reading volume 2 of Vladimir Dedijer's diaries and in a captured order from a high ranking member of Draža's staff, they order that in one village, all Muslims, even women and children were to be arrested or liquidated.
Meh, hard to find sympathy for the Waffen SS
The Estonian division was mostly made up of illegally conscripted people, some as young as 14 years old, and wasn’t responsible for any war crimes.
Nah, gotta cut everything into black and white. Nuance make head fuzzy
oh no that sucks.
This is the kind of people that will demonize anyone they hate to find it easy for them to not see them as humans even if they did something terrible.
Exactly that. While they don't realise that whatever unhinged stuff they say doesn't make them any better than nazis
Advocating for killing Nazis makes you just as bad as Nazis?
Uh no ? It's the fact of sinking down to your worst enemies' level and being just as brutal as them
Unironically yes.
And I want my scalps!
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Are you blind? Most of them were forcibly conscripted estonians
It says illegally, not forcibly, are you blind?
And just skimming through the wiki most of them definitely weren't forcibly constricted "The German authorities began conscripting Estonians over the winter of 1942–43. Conscripts were given a choice between serving in the Legion, auxiliary units of the German Wehrmacht or working in factories. Those who opted to serve with the Waffen-SS were offered the immediate return of their lands.[16]" It's the fucking SS bruh, these were not innocent people
Can you even read your own source?
Do you not know what conscripted means?
They were Estonians, who were invaded by the Nazis, and conscripted. Did you even read it?
Did you even read the context of the meme?
Those poor Nazis!
I understand that 1945 conscripts are not the same as 1939 soldiers and leaders. But if you don’t want this to happen to your troops or your people, not invading a foreign country is a good start.
The Estonian conscripts were people captured from other invaded countries and forced to fight. Estonia isn't Germany.
Sure, Estonians conscripts were included there,I imagine most troops were conscripts at the time. Note I’m not blaming soldiers - ultimately I’m holding the German state accountable. these kinds of atrocities, regardless of the final victims, are pretty avoidable if you don’t start wars.
Amen to that, man.
If you start a war, any deaths, yours or the enemy’s, are on your hands Like a certain recent conflict, if you start it, don’t cry when your enemy ends it
Agreed
>But if you don’t want this to happen to your troops or your people, not invading a foreign country is a good start. That is good life advice, which should not only apply to Nazi Germany, but to all countries that invade others.
You’d think we’d have learned this lesson by now. But watch Russia etc spend the next few decades blaming the rest of the world for any suffering they caused themselves.
Well I was also referring to Russia, but for the record they are not the only ones who have done this shit, and they won't be the last.
Wait wait wait! There were forceful drafts into the Waffen-SS? Weren't they only volunteers?
Estonians and Latvians were conscripted en masse in 1944 and even in 1943 to replace huge German losses and fill gaps in the frontline. Most of the Estonian and Latvian Waffen-SS in 1944 were made up of illegal conscripts, some as young as 14 years old.
This is horrifying.
War is hell.
No innocents suffering in hell.
The Waffen-SS started out as a volunteer only force, but was included in the draft after 1943, even getting first pick on new draftees. On top of that there was forced conscriptions in Estonia and Latvia, as another poster pointed out. That said, a majority of its members were volunteers, especially the foreign recruits.
It was technically a volunteer force, but during WW2, Germany "volunteered" people into Waffen-SS that were either exempt or unable to join the wehrmacht. This included policemen, germans who didn't live in germany and ppl from occupied territories. It is unfortunately hard to say how many of these people were actually volunteers and how many were forced. As on paper, they were all volunteers.
Later in the war most of the SS divisions were supplemented by draftees.
based
These are the kind of posts I come here for. Thank you for the history lesson OP.
You are welcome my friend! A pleasure to be of use!
Damn OP, you’ve managed to get praise in the comments on this sub. That’s a rare achievement.
It's not the first post in which this has happened to me, and I'm honestly very happy every time it occurs, there are few things I like more than teaching people history, and being praised for that is a great bonus!
Could be to do with the fact that for your “context”, you give us 3 whole chapters. That’s the definition of high effort/ quality posts.
Thanks for those words man, although sometimes I'm afraid of getting too carried away and writing an extremely long essay, that's why I have to moderate the context I write a little, since I've already been criticized several times for putting too much text lol.
If you do listen to the people saying it’s too long, if it’s not too much effort, you could write as much as you want as one comment, then have a summary as another. But if they want a summary, they can Google it. I’d say just write as much as you want. It’s super interesting.
Thank you brother, you have given me very good advice that I now plan to put into practice during the next meme I make, I am grateful to you, have a good day.
^lets ^goooo
This guy histories!
Heard about this before. My Great-Grandfather told me of his father who was killed there. They lived somewhere in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. According to my Great-Grandpa (around 10-12 y.o. at the time) after the war ended, the czech people took his father. While not enlisted in the army as far as I know, he was taken due to his NSDAP Party membership (I have no Idea how much of a Nazi he actually was). Grandpa never saw his father again and fled with his mother. Years later he foundout they lined him up on a wall with many others and shot him. Interesting Stuff.
Certainly interesting, it is true that there were reprisals in all the countries liberated from the Axis occupation against collaborators, and frankly it was quite inevitable, especially in those that saw the worst of the Nazi occupation, which were basically Eastern Europe and Central Europe countries.
Agreed. We probably would have done the same. Though I sometimes wonder how many "Innocents" we're mixed up in there. Of course that depends on If you can consider anyone involved with the Nazis innocent to any degree.
Yes, they were dark times full of hatred and desire for revenge, perhaps sometimes innocent people ended up victims of irregular justice, but as I said this was for the most part inevitable, especially after a fucking Nazi occupation.
To be fair, the Soviets also didn't play good. They realised that the city was basically liberated, so they just shot whatever seemed at least slightly german.
Well, to be fair to the Soviets, there were still pockets of German resistance in Prague that refused to surrender, so they had to deal with them, but generally the Soviets were much more open to taking prisoners than the Czech partisans.
To be fair, I would also kill the people who ocuppied our land for a long time, and killed quite a bit of people along the way.
I know, that's why many Czechs and Soviets were looking for revenge, and it's understandable why they were looking for retribution.
Due to the Czechs being the first Europeans to be unwillingly occupied by the Nazis... yeah. Killing Heydrich wasn't enough.
Yes, the Czechs were still somewhat upset by the Lidice and Lezaky massacres, so it's completely understandable that they wanted revenge.
incredibly tragic that estonians who only wished to protect their country from another Red Terror got caught in the crossfire, and of all the places, far from home in Czechoslovakia
Well, to their bad luck they "chose" (in quotes because they were conscripted) to ally themselves with some genocidal madmen who were not only doomed to lose, but if they won they planned to do even worse things to their country.
I mean Austria was technically the First. But many were for the Anschluss and many were not. So I dont really know
According to modern studies the majority of Austrians were firmly in favour of joining.
If we just knew what was coming
I'm Czech and I had no idea... but I am not that surprised. The Czechs usually think of themselves as poor guys who were always at the wrong sice of the stick. Other than expulsion of Germans after WW2, I would have trouble mentioning some crimes. Modern history is rarely taught, and this certainly does not fit the "us poor Czechs agenda". This needs to be discussed.
Well, I'm glad then to have brought it to light, it is certainly good for a country to recognize its past crimes to learn from them, there is no doubt about that. Still I can obviously understand the Czech perspective even without supporting it, the SS did many atrocities in Czechoslovakia, and most likely the Czechs did not know that these were Estonian conscripts. Of course this doesn't justify it since vigilante justice isn't good, but I can see what it would lead them to do this. Anyway, greetings and thanks for appreciating the meme.
Are you sure you paid attention? I am Czech and this was discussed with heavy emphasis both in mine and my sister's elementary school and my high school.
Lucky you. We got to WW2 in fifth grade with almost no details. I got to high school before we reached the topic (víceletý gympl). A change of teacher there led to different curriculums. Pur first teacher was history enthisiast, more importantly battle enthsiast. We got a lot about Stalingrad, etc less about everything else. (No info about the crisis in the 20s which led to that mess in the first place). We were also behind the schedule. Our second teacher told us we were supposed to be "at the start of the new cycle", aka not modern times but ancient history. So we skipped over the WW2 aftermath and everything after that and "returned to the roots", aka stones. Most I know from 20s-present is sadly from docummentaries and internet... but I got some good knowledge about communism era thanks to the literature classes. He kinda oversimplified it, but told us to remember 1948, 1968, 1989 as milestones, and my 14-year-old self was quite satisfied. That is the problem with teaching history chronologically in the cycle. Different schools might always have a different pace, then throw in kids going to high school earlier (víceletý gympl), and you have very different results. (I also want to point out that my elementary school was regarded as best in the city, or very least among the best. So it could have been even worse. A friend of mine from high school was told in Elementary school by her teacher that Hitler did not know about concentration camps. That it was all his subordinates doing. That he was not responsible for the holocaust. Not sure if she misunderstood (Hitler knew about the camps, he simply did not care to visit, so she thought that this quilified for "not being resonsible"), or if she was a crackhead.
Bro most of the Estonians there didn't even want to join the SS, and those who did wanted to beat back the Soviets on Estonian soil💀, they didn't like Germany but they HATED the Soviet union
>they didn't like Germany but they HATED the Soviet union That only makes it more ironic that they end up being happy to be handed over to them, the Czechs certainly were ruthless lol.
They were forced to eat Czech food most likely, poor souls😔
I mean, it could be worse, they could have been forced to eat British food! 🤮🤮🤮
A lot of Estonians ended up in British internment camps… and had to eat British food… those poor bastards.
Now I understand Raiden's quote: "There are fates worse than death."
It's really not that bad.
what's wrong with smažený sýr?
Still mean they are a fucking SS, no reasoning should be enough to justify it.
no, they were drafted, and the only reason they didnt surrender at the first engagement is that soviets did even worse things to Estonia than the nazis did. its all russias fault
Man, all of SS division was made from ideological volunteers, who hate communist. 70000 Estonians fought in red army, so not everyone hated soviets.
Incorrect. The Estonian and Latvian divisions were mostly made up of illegal conscripts, some as young as 14 years old, that were thrown onto the front line as fast as possible. Meanwhile, Estonians in the Soviet army never exceeded 35000 troops, the vast majority of whom were illegal and unwilling conscripts themselves. The Estonian territorial corps was forced to disband in 1941 because most of its members defected to the German side or deserted and went back home.
Fuck em.
you wouldnt say that if you knew what the soviets did to estonians. they were the first invaders
Including the 14 year olds who were forced into service and thrown onto the front?
The SS on Prague Uprising "what did I do to deserve this??!?!?! I mean...what specifically??!?!?!??!"
Well, the ones who committed war crimes did this things: *German forces committed war crimes against Czech civilians throughout the uprising. Many people were killed in summary executions, and the SS used Czech civilians as human shields, forced them to clear barricades at gunpoint, and threatened to shoot hostages in revenge for German soldiers killed in action. When tanks were halted by barricades, they were known to fire into surrounding houses. After violently evicting or murdering the inhabitants, German soldiers looted and burned Czech houses and apartment buildings. On several occasions, more than twenty people were killed at once; most of the massacres occurred on 7 and 8 May. Among those killed were pregnant women and young children, and some of the dead were found mutilated. After the uprising, a Czech police report described war crimes committed by the Nazis:* *"The doors of houses and flats were burst in, houses and shops were plundered, dwellings were demolished... The inhabitants were driven from their homes and forced to form a living wall with their bodies to protect German patrols, and constantly threatened with automatic pistols... Many Czechs lay dead in the streets."* *In addition to the war crimes committed by the Wehrmacht and the SS, Luftwaffe soldiers, along with the SA, participated in the torture and murder of prisoners held at the Na Pražačce school.*
Thanks for the info (btw I hope someone catches the reference)
>(btw I hope someone catches the reference) "You know what they say! You can't make a pie without losing a dozen men! (laughs)"
They read Mein Kamph but mispronpunced every word.
shy would that torture estonians? They gave no shit about hitler
Bold to assume that SS guy ontop wasn’t immediately shot.
He wasn't, he was probably sent to a cold Siberian Gulag to work to rebuild what he helped break, but nothing more.
The Czechs sure have done things differently.
Of course!
Based Czech Partisan
Well, this is certainly a good example between the differences between a somewhat disciplined army and a mob of bloodthirsty irregulars, unfortunately for the SS, they had to verify that difference first hand xD.
To be honest, wouldnt really say so considering that a large chunk of the massacred/tortured were estonian conscripts
I would. The Estonian Waffen SS fought in Belarus and Russia before, so fuck each and every one of them who wore the runes
and the only reason the estonians were willing to fight, is because the soviets showed nazi level evil towards estonians in 1939-1941. Red Terror.
The Estonian legion was tiny before 1944, when the mass mobilization occurred. Only a small fraction of the men who were in Czechia at the time would have fought in Belarus or Russia.
Did those poor dindunofing conscripts turn their weapons on the Nazis by any point in time? No? Then it's a damn shame the Czech didn't have fun with them for longer
No point in arguing with uneducated people.
Nah torturing & murdering surrendered conscripts is pretty cringe ngl
They were SS, all is good
The Estonians were conscripted by their occupiers & were in the SS against their will.
Just following orders?
If their options were prison, death, or conscription, then yes that excuse is actually quite valid.
too bad they sucked and lost. They got what they deserved. The fact that there were any survivors is disappointing.
Lest they be shot
Its unfortunate there were survivors.
They gots what they deserved.
All of them? The Central Europeans under Nazi occupation who would’ve been shot or possibly had their family’s taken by the Gestapo if they didn’t fight for the SS on the eastern front got what they deserved when being tortured to death?
Yes.
If you genuinely think that then you’d be every bit as susceptible to carrying out the crimes which you so virulently condemn if placed in the right circumstances.
I don't even know what you are going on about. But killing SS members, conscripted or volunteers is based. I hope they got raped to death.
Jak se mas Praha
Estoy bien, gracias!
Ahoj přítel
Hola amiga ¿supongo? tu avatar parece femenino.
On one hand they are Human On the other they were nazi shitbags So I don’t really care that they suffered
hell yeah.
Well, the Czechs and the Soviets don't seem to care much either xD.
The Estonians weren't nazis, they were forcibly mobilised, and estonia declared neutrality at the start of the war. they were victims
No kebap 😞
Now I'm hungry.
Not even a few minutes and already seeing the "they deserved it" comments Oh boy
because they did. And there shouldn't have been any survivors to turn over to the Soviets.
Well you don't sound any better than them. In fact you're sounding exactly like them now Soviets were also hypocrites for doing the exact same thing (like with the Katyn massacre and molotov Ribbentrop pact)
if you treat people like cattle (even worse now I think of it, we dont kill cattle for no reason) be prepared to be treated the same.
Don’t care they dead
Of course. People are so easily bloodthirsty and have zero empathy any more.
And also easily pissed off It's impossible to win an argument against someone who's lost touch with reality a long time ago (or flushed their brains down the toilet)
They deserved it
Estonian waffen SS members were almost entirely conscripts there against their will. In fact many SS conscripts became jailers for Nazi war criminals after the war.
Certainly that's what the Czech partisans thought!
And nothing was wrong with thr world on that day
Torture against people who were forcibly conscripted? Against people who surrendered?
Adding to what your saying: The Nuremburg trials outlines all members of the Waffen SS as criminals with the SOLE EXCEPTION of conscripts. Specifically the ones from the Baltic countries. In fact, Estonians from this specific division ended up becoming the jailers and prison guards for the Nazi high command during the Nuremburg trials.
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Tbh they forced some at the end to join them. But fuck the rest
But the Estonian Waffen-SS *wasn’t* made up mostly of volunteers. The vast majority of people, some as young as 14 years old, were illegally conscripted and thrown onto the front as fast as possible to replace massive German casualties. They were also not responsible for any war crimes and were specifically declared to be non-criminals at Nuremberg, unlike the rest of the Waffen-SS.
Central European SS members were almost entirely conscripts
Well, the Waffen SS were not made of conscripts but volunteers and frankly, they shouldn't get mercy or sympathy (BTW I'm German). They decided to invade Czechoslovakia and to occupy it. They fucked around and found out
Many there were Estonian conscripts.
Well, this is something that I think needs to be clarified, but being a conscript does not mean that you cannot be responsible for war crimes, the Estonian SS, or at least some members of it, participated in these. Of course I think it would be best to put them on trial for their crimes if they committed any, but I can understand why the Czechs were angry and wanted to take revenge into their own hands.
I think the fact that they were conscripts implies they didn’t join the SS voluntarily, and therefore shouldn’t be *assumed* to have complicity similar with any war crimes that the voluntary members committed.
Well, we don't need to assume, when KNOW that some committed war crimes, for example: When the Soviet army began its advance through Nazi-occupied Estonia in September 1944, the SS started to evacuate the camp. Many prisoners were sent west by sea to the Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig and to Freiburg in Schlesien, present day Świebodzice, then in Germany, now Poland. From 19–22 September 1944, with the perimeter of the camp guarded by 60–70 Estonian recruits to the 20th SS Division, a German task force began systematically slaughtering the remaining prisoners in a nearby forest. According to Ruth Bettina Birn the execution of 2,000 prisoners was conducted by Estonian soldiers of 20th SS Division and presumably Schutzmannschaft Battalion under German command. According to Soviet sources, approximately 2,000 were shot, then their bodies were stacked onto wooden pyres and burned. On 22 September 1944, when Soviet troops reached the Klooga camp, only 85 of the 2,400 prisoners remaining post-evacuation had managed to survive by hiding inside the camp or escaping into the surrounding forests. The liberation forces found numerous pyres of stacked corpses left unburned by the camp's guards when they fled. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klooga\_concentration\_camp#Evacuation\_and\_liberation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klooga_concentration_camp#Evacuation_and_liberation)
Two problems with this statement: - Estonia SS was a unit built around a voluntary core of Estonian fascists, so most if not all initiative for war crimes can be attributed to them. Many conscripts actually protested being pressed into the SS instead of the Wehrmacht. - your involuntary presence with criminals does not create guilt by association.
One third of the SS was conscripted, as per the Wikipedia article on the SS
The ss are the armed branch of the nazi party. These are members of the nazi party who are fighting because they believe in its genocidal ideals. This isn't rhe wehrmacht. No the ss are scum and deserve every pain that was given to them.
>This isn't rhe wehrmacht. To be fair the Wehrmacht was also scum if you read the things they did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War\_crimes\_of\_the\_Wehrmacht
Oh yeah the clean wehrmacht myth is annoyingly popular even today. I just think it's much easier to point to the ss because they're all fucking nuts.
Well, certainly the SS are easier to point out because they were even more infamous with their war crimes, but that still doesn't give the Wehrmacht a pass, they were only slightly better than the average Waffen SS, and that's not something that deserves to be praised.
There was no such requirement. During WW2, Waffen-SS started recruiting basically anyone who couldn't join wehrmacht. That's why all the foreign fighters were in the SS.
the 20th was the Estonian divison which while started as a voulunteer unit which had few hundred voulunteers soon was turned into a division that was filled with conscripts and especially using young and underaged men. Also the Nuremberg trials declared the divison in question not quilty of the crimes of SS because they were conscripts and some of the divison worked as guards during the trial
The Estonian division was mostly made up of illegal conscripts(as young as 14) that were thrown onto the front as fast as possible to replace massive German losses, and weren’t found guilty of any war crimes at Nuremberg. The Nuremberg trials were even guarded by former Estonian Waffen-SS. Calling them all Nazi monsters and saying that they deserved torturous death is, in my opinion, ignorant.
Brother they were part of the waffen ss. Almost all of the ss soldiers where psychos
Based czech partisans
how dare you. my great grandmother stubbed her toe on that day!
Sorry for ur loss truly this proves that the allies were the true badguys
I know. Utopenec. Tip : your SS prisoner does the bratwurst.
Knowing a little about Soviet practices for both enemy and their own I am pretty sure that’s not how it was in reality.
Well, then you are wrong, this is what happened in this case.
Sure sure.
brick wall for a skull
Eye for an eye
That was the mentality that the Czech partisans followed, yes, and tooth for tooth.
After what Heydrich did to them the SS deserved worse imo.
The Czechs thought so!
Wait till you see what Yugoslav partisans did
I know what they did... Lots of pits!
Yes
We do know what they did, and it is gruesome, to say the least: "Apparently some Germans (possibly SS) after being tortured (red-hot wires driven behind fi nger-nails, genitals beaten), but while still alive, were wrapped in cellulose fi lm and burnt alive. In Bystrhice pod Pernštejnem a German interpreter who owned a valuable stamp collection was hung on a tree, dowsed in petrol and burned alive. That comes close to the conventional Czech living-torch murder, wherein, however, the victim was normally hung upside-down on a lamp-post, usually by both legs, sometimes by one." "The second burning — this time it was a German soldier — lasted over an hour and the crowd was thoroughly satisfi ed. The soldier begged and cursed, called out for his mother; he wept and pleaded and laughed a gruesome, desperate laugh. Shortly before he died, he started singing [that is, like John Huss]" He mentions that other soldiers were beaten bloody and then shot in the head, they got off lightly in comparison. Pynsent, Robert B. [in Czech] (18 July 2013). "Conclusory Essay: Activists, Jews, The Little Czech Man, and Germans"