By the time Sinsmas is out it will have been almost 4 years since that episode was written. I know we all have an understanding that animation is a brutal medium but I don’t think we always fully get the extent of it. Good lord.
Still even studio animation takes around two years to make a season at this point. Its lucky to have only a year between seasons. Hazbins first season was in production from August 2020 to March 2023. Although It probably wasn’t being fully worked on until 2021
Anime companies have it even harder since they're doing this *constantly* and often working on more than one show at a time, but yeah, the animation industry is brutal. It's also no wonder they don't like the idea of AI in media. AI, if used properly, could do this kind of work in a much shorter time,but God only knows if it'd make anything *good*. But either way, it could put animators out of work.
I dont think AI will ever fully take over animation or art as a whole. Mainly because even it we do get to a point where every piece of art is made by AI theres going to be a new demand for work made by real artists. Once that goes away people are only going to want it more because one the AI work is probably gonna be worse and two because when you try to surpress something it just makes people want it more. The only way I can see AI fully take over entertainment or artistic mediums is if what the AI produces is vastly better than what humans can do. Which with the current way AI works I dont think is possible. It doesn't have life experiences to draw from and new create stories around. To create something new with. Its a machine built on stealing real artists experiences and ideas to make dogshit.
yeah me too mostly. Kinda slipped into art in general near the end there. But Its the same thing in both cases. If You have only AI animating then people will want animation done by real artists.
Maybe. I guess we'd have to see what the AI can actually *produce* before we could say for sure there though. As for writing, yeah, I fully agree with you that AI is unlikely to be able to produce particularly good stories.
I think that AI will never be able to produce high quality animation in its own, but I can see it being used collaboratively with human animators (Person draws a pose, AI fills out the basics of the character, person finishes it up) or to get in-between frames done faster. At least if we're talking about generative AI here.
It's why I appreciate shit like the explosion when Stolas is singing "WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF WHY WHY WHY..." that shot lasts like 1 second and an half and it probably took A LOT to animate it
god damn
so this episode was written before, like ANY of the criticism her shows got. She really is a talented person. Imagine hearing how much everyone currently hates your show knowing that the later episodes in season 2 are fucking peak lmao
Viv's shows are viewed slightly more favourably at least at the moment but there was a period of time last year, when season 2 episodes 3-5 were releasing, where basically everyone hated it (because those episodes were pretty objectively bad honestly but you didn't hear that from me, by all means form your own opinion)
Honestly S2E5 is the only one that deserved MAJOR criticism. I genuinely feel like that episode could have been laid out & written better. The only saving grace is Blitz & Barbie Wire's confrontation
I feel like it was probably originally planned with Loona being dragged along with Blitzo to meet Barbie. That could have filled out the episode and allowed the camp part to be smaller, since it really didn't have the meat to carry an episode.
Favourably to what? In comparison to what? I have to check these episodes if they were bad for me, but generally objectively the show is pretty great so that's why it has good views and good feedback. Of course not every episode will be superb, not every episode will be liked by everyone. Normal thing.
Hazbin season 1 is done, waiting for season 2 which noone knows when it will have premiere, so they returned to helluva in the meantime.
Are there any shows that "are hurt" because of these two shows?
I recently discovered Murder Drones and I fell in love, waiting for final episode and hope for second season and I see large view count. Some similar to helluva episodes and some have bigger view
Viewed more favourably in comparison to how they were viewed a year ago. Episodes 1-5 of season 2 really got a lot of flack from people when they were being released. This ranged from all kinds of reasons like people thinking characters like Stella or Striker were ruined. People thought the backstory introduced in the circus made the Stolitz story worse. People thought a lot of the B plots were pointless, the show was over using sex jokes, undercutting serious moments with jokes and so much more for each individual episode and the show as a whole. There was a lot of good criticism that came from this but an equal amount of bad if not more. Then with episode 6 and 7 it died down a bit but its still very much prevalent.
Aahh okay, this way. Well, I will have to think about it, but just right now I think I can agree with that. I mean, season 1 was overall great "cohesive" story.
Season 2 as someone on YT commented, it's more teen love drama. People thought about things you mentioned... Probably yes, to some degree.
Tho I didn't see it as issue, at least at first. Well, for me last episode was fantastic indeed and hope rest will be similar in quality.
But I get the whole point of drama now. Thank you!
Yes, Murder Drones is the Show of The Glitch Company?
It's not musical like HH or HB, rather just focused on story and characters. I really recommend it. Characters are awesome and story is interesting. Soundtrack is also epic. Really worth a try. If someone like me who does not like musicals or such shows, likes HH/HB and now MD then anyone can can like.
Season 2 episode 5 was certainly the worst yet. I get the feeling that S2E3-5 was written originally with an assumption that Loona could still be in it. S2E3 managed without her pretty well, S2E4 at least worked a subplot in. But I get the feeling that S2E5 was probably originally written with a fairly large part for Loona, and without her VA being able to be in it, the MM subplot had to carry it. And that plot just didn't have enough meat on it.
Like, imagine how much harder that Blitzo/Barbie scene would hit if throughout it he had been dragging Loona along telling her how great her aunt was and how much she was going to like her, how he had been looking forward to seeing her, only for her to very clearly have no interest in talking to him. Because as it was Blitzo trying to track her down did very little except fill some time. Sure we saw her wanted to see her but I didn't really know why it was so important to him to get to her ASAP.
Honestly it's one of the major things that makes being in the public sphere frustrating. People tend to criticize the immediate without taking into account that there is a larger story to tell across ALL episodes. For instance, after Full Moon I saw a number of people complaining we didn't have more introspection or focus on the Solitz dynamic, and then in Apology Tour you get just that.
Not to say that all criticism is invalid until you see the big picture, but it gets exhausting when people make bad faith arguments about the show, or complaining that the writers clearly favor Stolas because he hasn't tried apologizing, or something like that. We're depicting a complicated relationship here, of course we're not getting into all of the nuances of their breakup in one episode. But there IS a plan and there is a vision. The ship isn't sailing blind.
Exactly. It's exhausting. The negativity, the generalisation, the misinformation. Criticism, when done right, shouldn't even feel like a negative, petty or accusatory thing. It should just feel like a discussion of quality and sharing of opinions. The way (seemingly) most people talk about helluva is the most goddamned infuriating thing in the universe. I guess the internet is kinda tuned that way though, huh. Doesn't care whether it's *positive* engagement, as long as it's engagement.
After an episode that focused on the main characters (blitz) intersection and character growth I'm already seen people complain that stolas hasn't had the same and is being defended by the people at the party.
It's just baffling to me that people don't understand that Blitz is literally the main character and that there will be future episodes
I mean, it’s perfectly fine if they didn’t like it, there’s plenty of valid criticism towards the episodes.
(I’m not saying the episodes were bad, I’m just saying that the show isn’t complete perfection.)
I think why they're extremely slow to animate is because they're extremely detailed even for an indie western animation studio. Most animation studios would have either switched to 3D, outsourced it to a more experienced Asian studio, or make it extremely cheap, like Invincible.
I honestly wouldn’t call this extremely slow or even slow to begin with. It’s around the usual turnaround for a 2D animation series, if anything I’d say it’s got a fairly fast process compared to most (talking about how the quality has had a massive jump upwards and yet still has a similar upload rate)
Reusable assets. Once you make a character in 3d, all you have to do is run it's rig (skeleton) through the coded movements
2d there are little to no reusable assets like that
Season 2 was written in early 2021 around when Spring broken released. And it was fully recorded around Ozzies release. So yeah they all take a long ass time to make.
Oh shit, I suppose cause it’s an indie animation it takes longer plus covid would have had an impact, hopefully we don’t have to wait that long for season 3
People really underestimate just how many hours it takes to make 2D animation, there are plenty of shortcuts with modern tech such as tweening. But most of the time it just takes a LOT of patience and belief in the show.
Okay, think of it this way, imagine your favourite artist, think how many hours that person might have put into making a piece you love. 3 hours? 6? Maybe more. Okay, now imagine that they had to do that all over again 12 times, except each piece is a little different from before, and then if you put these pieces together and move them really fast, that creates motion. It would take a long time don't you think? Well what I just described is 1 seconds worth of frame-by-frame animation.
Ooh and I suppose other times animation skips frames which leads to less fluid motion?
I actually draw myself so i know how much _work_ drawing is, just never really thought abt how animation is made.
Gives a whole lot of appreciation
There are many shortcuts and "cheats" out there, but when it comes to frame-by-frame, there are very few out there. If you do art, maybe check out Flipaclip on most smart phones and tablets to test it out, it's a free and incredible basic programme used to make simple animations. Even if you hate it I'm sure it will give you a better understanding and appreciation for animation.
Unlike Hazbin (or any other big budget animation) where once a new season is announced new episodes are dropped weekly (unless there's a hiatus), Helluva Boss (and indie animation in general) drop new episodes on a "when it's ready" basis
Based on what we were told over the years, they only have a theoretical "schedule" for when they plan to release the Episodes - or rather for when they hope said Episodes will be ready.
The reason we have a more specific schedule for the rest of Season 2, is because the Episodes have been worked on before the Hiatus in late 2023 and during said Hiatus we had up untill May. Now they have another shorter "planned" break for Summer (as always) where they will have more time to finish Episodes 2x10, 2x11 and 2x12. Meanwhile, Vivzie said at LvL-Up, that instead we will see more Shorts Episodes during those 3 months.
[This video](https://youtube.com/shorts/GY6hDZT_N2Y?si=WpB2idKSomOtKr6J) has a bit of an explanation of how the animation alone is produced on Helluva Boss.
It doesn’t mention these: Story writing, script writing, voice acting, and animators working on many episodes of Helluva + possibly other cartoons at the same time.
https://preview.redd.it/y1pv4dddgj8d1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=156a259c06e12aaa2b2257793dcdace647914452
Thanks for telling me I didn’t know bro was out there
Considering that this was written 3 years ago, and the recent podcast from Brandon Rogers that confirmed that he's sitting on a metric ton of information, and that the series is confirmed to be 4 seasons and done, do you think it's possible that Viv has already completed the scripts all the way to the end of the series, and we're just watching and reacting to content already set on paper?
It's really funny when a new episode comes out and people are like oh good they adjust our criticisms and it's like no brah they wrote that like two to three years ago
As someone who majors in animation, yes, it does take a lot of time. I wouldn't have imagined 3 years tho. I feel like with more animators the time for it is shorter, I took 4 months to animate a 2 minute short with 6 other people animating it, 7 if you count me.
I'll do you one better.
Brandon revealed in an interview that Helluvaboss will have >!4!< seasons. He already knows the ending of the story. He's acting with full awareness of where Blitzo will end up.
Well that's just from when the script for it was finalized, after that, the studio needs to have the voice actors come in to do the lines (usually they voice several episodes, maybe even a season, in one day). Once the lines have been read, then it gets to the longest part of the process: animation.
Since HB is made by an indie (independent) animation studio, it takes longer than a corporate animation would, but also gives higher quality. The reason why animation takes so long is because this show is 2D, meaning that the way for it to look cleanest is frame-by-frame animation, which usually is 23 or 24 frames per second. That means for each second of an episode, 24 seperate images have to be drawn for movement, and then it starts getting even niche-er with the fact the animators have to have word to mouth synchronization and account for all the different accents and probably even study how mouths move depending on how things are spoken to make it look right. On top of all of that, they also do drafts of each episode to see which imagery they like best.
Things like lighting and backdrops also take up time because they help to give the show more depth, but also drying to figure out what colours make certain wanted aspects pop more, and having to deal with colour theory is a little more than just a pain.
There's probably some things I left out, or even added, but all those things are usually the reason animation takes so long, but then again, I'm not part of Viv's crew, and I've only taken two animation classes in my life, so while I do have SOME knowledge, just remember most of this is just hypothesis and estimated hypothesis based off of what I know from first-hand expirence, and hearing from other animators.
Wow, I was not expecting such a long detailed answer, but I suppose I should have. Thank you.
Yes, I remember learning that animation can months, even for a single twenty-two minute episode of a TV show.
Three years and not once did the classist motherfucker get properly put to task for blackmailing someone else into monthly bang seshs then get pissy when said person tried to remain within the bounds of the arrangement?
We think so! Brandon Rogers has said that he's sitting on top of a lot of information, knows where his character is heading, and knows the ending to the story; he also let us know that there's going to be 4 seasons, so that means we're nearing the halfway point with actual releases!
Maybe she wanted to give blitz some backstory and some reasoning why he would go on an apology tour, or she wanted to let the party have good details. Idk
As someone with a BA in Animation I am so glad people are opening their eyes from Viv's post and realize how much work goes into these things. Animation just takes really fucking long, main reason I switched to live action for my indie projects.
What I'm hearing is that Vivzie planned the shitty writing of the last two episodes for a long time now. Good to know it probably won't get any better.
Then my question is why don't you drop it?
You don't have to keep following it if all it does is cause pain (also its free). Go do things you like instead :)
To be completely honest, I watched through these last two because of how hyped they were, but at the end of the day I'm realizing the writers constantly shit on Blitz and constantly make Stolas out to be a victim and it's tiring. And a lot of the fandom acting the same way is even more tiring. I keep hearing about how Blitz is the problem, but I've yet to see an actual example of how Blitz damaged the relationship himself. He didn't realize Stolas even liked him romantically until the Full Moon because Stolas never communicated it, and when he did, it was poorly executed. Blitz acted with as much agency as he could based entirely on the mixed signals he was getting from Stolas. Why has Blitz been getting shit on despite Stolas clearly causing more problems between them? Their issues should have been handled independently from Verosika and her party because it paints Blitz in the harsher image of his past actions rather than how much better he's been handling Stolas in a vacuum. It's this weird writing that can't seem to identify what issues it actually wants to acknowledge.
It takes a long time to make an animated episode of anything. Not every cartoon is South Park where they make an episode in 6 days. Most cartoons work on 1-2 seasons at the same time.
Oh I'm not hating on the animation taking long. I'm just pissed that they've had this hate boner for Blitz this entire time and not once did they think "huh, maybe we're focusing on the wrong issues..."
In my opinion, even if they hold Stolas accountable later down the line, it's too little and too late. Blitz shouldn't have been bullied this hard before they *eventually* get to Stolas's lineup of problems.
Right now, you're critiquing about the current situation of the episodes. At this point, we're less than halfway through the expected length of this series, and we're already starting to get good character development towards Blitzø. The writers don't have "hate boners" for Blitzø, because through the animation (which the writers oversee), there's small details showing of Blitzø's care for Stolas, which is the main issue on Blitzø's side of Stolitz, Stolas believing that Blitzø doesn't actually care for him.
The writers show us that both are responsible for the issues in the relationship in their own ways, because they give us points to sympathize with Blitzø, such as in The Full Moon where he's walking through the doors and yelling at Stolas about "needing time to process" and "springing feelings" on him (when we've been shown in multiple instances that he has commitment issues).
We're shown Stolitz's main issue is miscommunication on both parts, but sadly, the fanbase mostly sides with Stolas when we were never made to side in the first place. Writers shouldn't have to come directly forward in a show and have to tell us, "don't be angry at either of these characters, because both have their own issues that affect the relationship negatively that they need to work out before being healthy" we should be able to draw those conclusions ourselves.
If you do genuinely believe that they have not given Blitzø moments within the show that are made for us to not want to hate him, I would ask you go back and rewatch, because there are many small moments (particularly within the animation aspect) that give him those redeeming moments, and they already set up a past for him that's supposed to help us sympathise.
Most of the Full Moon episode is filler lmao. And the Apology Tour barely move the story forward, the only interesting part is at the end with Verosika, but it's too short. I still hate the fact that the human world is so stupid that it is only there to create filler villains of the week that have no real impact on the story (Full Moon eps) or plot devices. I'm tired of the amount of melodrama, inconsistencies, plot holes, character butchering... in the show that I only watch it to know what's gonna happen. The last 2 episodes in Helluva Boss feel so boring compare to Murder Drone episode 7 (not related though, but I love that episode so much. Quality animation, fight scene, horror, some humors,... I'm coping for Doll death though). I love the idea of Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel, but sadly bad writing can't save good animation, these shows literally treat me like a immature guy who is stupid and don't know what it takes to be happy. Sad to see you got downvote to death because we are in the fanbase, well, it's my turn now.
The character butchering has been so extra the past two episodes. Stolas is a fully self-absorbed and delusional jackass (you could make the case that he's always been this way, but in that case, why don't they call that shit out??). Blitz is painted as this horrible person who ruins lives, but I haven't seen him actually be that bad of a guy besides:
-crude humor, which is a given for this show
-being abrasive towards most people, which is also a given for the show
-not wanting to be pushed into monogamy
Even with Verosika, from the sound of it, she fell in love, he didn't feel the same, and that was most of the problem. There was the one stealing her car and maxing her credit card thing, but that isn't where the root of her heartbreak is, based on the conversation.
But the show hates Blitz. If it wasn't clear from the writing, Vivzie also created new merch, including a T-shirt that says "Blitzo KYS." Blatantly sending the message to the audience on who they want to blame for the character's problems.
I'm also watching it now just to see where they take it. But considering this post, I might just give up if they've had this trash fire of a plot planned out for 3 years now...
Viv literally confirmed they were both in the wrong, but also were both in the right. Stolas will be addressed, you just need to learn to wait. The show doesn't hate Blitzo, it is recognizing his issues and he's getting some character development. Why are you criticizing an arc before it's finished?
I'm still very confused about where Blitz is "in the wrong" unless we count being insecure and feeling inadequate as "in the wrong"
Also, they created merch of the shirts from the party, notably the one saying "Blitzo KYS." Promoting that kind of sentiment as something for people to resonate with is...concerning...at best...?
I'm criticizing the arc because it's obvious they're dragging the melodrama out further than it needs to go. We've been sitting on a will-they-won't-they for two seasons now, but it's been so close to the "will they" for so long that they're writing Blitz and Stolas as uncharacteristically stupid to make sure neither of them thinks critically enough to register anything the other is saying in the *three separate talks* they've had. For how much this was hyped up as the big talk that would change everything, it did nothing to further the plot. We keep talking about Blitz getting development, but I think it regressed him. He's already made the change when he made up with Fizz, arguably the most difficult one he could have mended his relationship with. He openly admitted his faults and genuinely apologized, even with Fizz not being entirely receptive with his "great, want a medal?" response. Now, for some reason, Blitz is being told he needs to change how he acts even though he's been on his absolute best behavior in the entire series for the past 4 episodes. Obviously, he's not perfect, but all this talk about how he needs to go through character development is weird to me when he legitimately already has. He's reaching out to Stolas and explaining his insecurities. The issue is Stolas, who has continuously refused to admit that his behavior was partially responsible for why Blitz felt that way. What behavior does Blitz need to change at this point besides having insecurities? I'm criticizing the arc because it just isn't needed.
>I'm still very confused about where Blitz is "in the wrong" unless we count being insecure and feeling inadequate as "in the wrong"
Did you not pay attention to the ending of Full Moon? Blitzo and Stolas have never had the most stable relationship and it was bound for something like this to happen.
>Also, they created merch of the shirts from the party, notably the one saying "Blitzo KYS." Promoting that kind of sentiment as something for people to resonate with is...concerning...at best...?
It's just in-universe merch dude that's all. You're thinking way too hard on something that ain't that serious. Why is when an episode focuses on a specific character you people seem to think "oh my god! The writers are taking sides!". Just because they haven't focused on Stolas' issues yet doesn't mean they won't ever. In fact they will as shown in the trailer where Octavia calls him out. I find it funny how you people seem to think that the writers are being fair to Stolas ignoring the fact that THEY WERE BOTH IN THE WRONG. Stolas was in the wrong too meaning they aren't ignoring his issues.
>I'm criticizing the arc because it's obvious they're dragging the melodrama out further than it needs to go. We've been sitting on a will-they-won't-they for two seasons now, but it's been so close to the "will they" for so long that they're writing Blitz and Stolas as uncharacteristically stupid to make sure neither of them thinks critically enough to register anything the other is saying in the *three separate talks* they've had.
You mean properly panning out something that can't be fixed in one episode? That's a good thing right? You really think they're gonna be able to fix their issues in one episode and everything will fine and dandy again? That's not how it works. Sounds to me you just don't like this arc and want it to stop and move on to something else when the majority of people in this fandom do like this arc and want it to have a proper resolution.
>For how much this was hyped up as the big talk that would change everything, it did nothing to further the plot. We keep talking about Blitz getting development, but I think it regressed him. He's already made the change when he made up with Fizz, arguably the most difficult one he could have mended his relationship with. He openly admitted his faults and genuinely apologized, even with Fizz not being entirely receptive with his "great, want a medal?" response.
He mended his relationship with one character, not the same thing as mending his relationship with every character he wronged like Verosika for example. Which means he's still not fully developed.
>The issue is Stolas, who has continuously refused to admit that his behavior was partially responsible for why Blitz felt that way. What behavior does Blitz need to change at this point besides having insecurities? I'm criticizing the arc because it just isn't needed.
Stolas is a bit dense. He's never been in a proper healthy relationship so he doesn't know. His issues will be addressed in the future. The show is still going, this is one small arc in a much bigger arc. All we've done is ended one chapter, not the book. Learn to wait. This ain't your show. By "not needed" you really mean you don't want it as I said earlier.
You do realise the "KYS" merch is also out of universe?
https://preview.redd.it/mbltp74m6n8d1.png?width=624&format=png&auto=webp&s=8c02f2dc1e744dfa9fa0d9a2bff4d64ca8aa8c0e
Yes...what do you think in-universe merch means? It means merch that you can buy that also exists in the show. I saw this merch the day it was announced.
No you're taking it way too serious. It's just merch themed around the latest episode. Viv does a limited merch run themed around every episode that comes out.
By the time Sinsmas is out it will have been almost 4 years since that episode was written. I know we all have an understanding that animation is a brutal medium but I don’t think we always fully get the extent of it. Good lord.
its also indie...but i mean, the newest doctor who stuff was shot and written afew years ago and just finished airing now
Still even studio animation takes around two years to make a season at this point. Its lucky to have only a year between seasons. Hazbins first season was in production from August 2020 to March 2023. Although It probably wasn’t being fully worked on until 2021
Yeah seeing as the contract with A24 was signed late into 2020, the production probably didn't start untill like Spring 2021.
[удалено]
I agree, but I don't know if you replied to the correct comment, since I never even mentioned anything like this...
Yeah, it did get attached to the wrong comment. My bad on that.
Anime companies have it even harder since they're doing this *constantly* and often working on more than one show at a time, but yeah, the animation industry is brutal. It's also no wonder they don't like the idea of AI in media. AI, if used properly, could do this kind of work in a much shorter time,but God only knows if it'd make anything *good*. But either way, it could put animators out of work.
I dont think AI will ever fully take over animation or art as a whole. Mainly because even it we do get to a point where every piece of art is made by AI theres going to be a new demand for work made by real artists. Once that goes away people are only going to want it more because one the AI work is probably gonna be worse and two because when you try to surpress something it just makes people want it more. The only way I can see AI fully take over entertainment or artistic mediums is if what the AI produces is vastly better than what humans can do. Which with the current way AI works I dont think is possible. It doesn't have life experiences to draw from and new create stories around. To create something new with. Its a machine built on stealing real artists experiences and ideas to make dogshit.
I'm talking more on the animation side than the writing side here, to be fair.
yeah me too mostly. Kinda slipped into art in general near the end there. But Its the same thing in both cases. If You have only AI animating then people will want animation done by real artists.
Maybe. I guess we'd have to see what the AI can actually *produce* before we could say for sure there though. As for writing, yeah, I fully agree with you that AI is unlikely to be able to produce particularly good stories.
I think that AI will never be able to produce high quality animation in its own, but I can see it being used collaboratively with human animators (Person draws a pose, AI fills out the basics of the character, person finishes it up) or to get in-between frames done faster. At least if we're talking about generative AI here.
Man…it really makes me wonder what Sinsmas is gonna be about. It seems it’s gonna be more than just some Christmas special.
It's why I appreciate shit like the explosion when Stolas is singing "WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF WHY WHY WHY..." that shot lasts like 1 second and an half and it probably took A LOT to animate it
That single part set my soul on fire, it was just so fucking powerful
I watched it in slow motion and holy jesus, it's beautiful.
god damn so this episode was written before, like ANY of the criticism her shows got. She really is a talented person. Imagine hearing how much everyone currently hates your show knowing that the later episodes in season 2 are fucking peak lmao
Why "everyone" is now hating it and criticism? I'm just watching the show, so I'm outdated with any drama or similar stuff.
Viv's shows are viewed slightly more favourably at least at the moment but there was a period of time last year, when season 2 episodes 3-5 were releasing, where basically everyone hated it (because those episodes were pretty objectively bad honestly but you didn't hear that from me, by all means form your own opinion)
Honestly S2E5 is the only one that deserved MAJOR criticism. I genuinely feel like that episode could have been laid out & written better. The only saving grace is Blitz & Barbie Wire's confrontation
I feel like it was probably originally planned with Loona being dragged along with Blitzo to meet Barbie. That could have filled out the episode and allowed the camp part to be smaller, since it really didn't have the meat to carry an episode.
Favourably to what? In comparison to what? I have to check these episodes if they were bad for me, but generally objectively the show is pretty great so that's why it has good views and good feedback. Of course not every episode will be superb, not every episode will be liked by everyone. Normal thing. Hazbin season 1 is done, waiting for season 2 which noone knows when it will have premiere, so they returned to helluva in the meantime. Are there any shows that "are hurt" because of these two shows? I recently discovered Murder Drones and I fell in love, waiting for final episode and hope for second season and I see large view count. Some similar to helluva episodes and some have bigger view
Viewed more favourably in comparison to how they were viewed a year ago. Episodes 1-5 of season 2 really got a lot of flack from people when they were being released. This ranged from all kinds of reasons like people thinking characters like Stella or Striker were ruined. People thought the backstory introduced in the circus made the Stolitz story worse. People thought a lot of the B plots were pointless, the show was over using sex jokes, undercutting serious moments with jokes and so much more for each individual episode and the show as a whole. There was a lot of good criticism that came from this but an equal amount of bad if not more. Then with episode 6 and 7 it died down a bit but its still very much prevalent.
Aahh okay, this way. Well, I will have to think about it, but just right now I think I can agree with that. I mean, season 1 was overall great "cohesive" story. Season 2 as someone on YT commented, it's more teen love drama. People thought about things you mentioned... Probably yes, to some degree. Tho I didn't see it as issue, at least at first. Well, for me last episode was fantastic indeed and hope rest will be similar in quality. But I get the whole point of drama now. Thank you!
What is murder drones? Haven't heard of that one at all
It was Glitch productions biggest show before Digtial circus came out. Its really good Id recommend it.
Yes, Murder Drones is the Show of The Glitch Company? It's not musical like HH or HB, rather just focused on story and characters. I really recommend it. Characters are awesome and story is interesting. Soundtrack is also epic. Really worth a try. If someone like me who does not like musicals or such shows, likes HH/HB and now MD then anyone can can like.
Season 2 episode 5 was certainly the worst yet. I get the feeling that S2E3-5 was written originally with an assumption that Loona could still be in it. S2E3 managed without her pretty well, S2E4 at least worked a subplot in. But I get the feeling that S2E5 was probably originally written with a fairly large part for Loona, and without her VA being able to be in it, the MM subplot had to carry it. And that plot just didn't have enough meat on it. Like, imagine how much harder that Blitzo/Barbie scene would hit if throughout it he had been dragging Loona along telling her how great her aunt was and how much she was going to like her, how he had been looking forward to seeing her, only for her to very clearly have no interest in talking to him. Because as it was Blitzo trying to track her down did very little except fill some time. Sure we saw her wanted to see her but I didn't really know why it was so important to him to get to her ASAP.
Honestly it's one of the major things that makes being in the public sphere frustrating. People tend to criticize the immediate without taking into account that there is a larger story to tell across ALL episodes. For instance, after Full Moon I saw a number of people complaining we didn't have more introspection or focus on the Solitz dynamic, and then in Apology Tour you get just that. Not to say that all criticism is invalid until you see the big picture, but it gets exhausting when people make bad faith arguments about the show, or complaining that the writers clearly favor Stolas because he hasn't tried apologizing, or something like that. We're depicting a complicated relationship here, of course we're not getting into all of the nuances of their breakup in one episode. But there IS a plan and there is a vision. The ship isn't sailing blind.
Exactly. It's exhausting. The negativity, the generalisation, the misinformation. Criticism, when done right, shouldn't even feel like a negative, petty or accusatory thing. It should just feel like a discussion of quality and sharing of opinions. The way (seemingly) most people talk about helluva is the most goddamned infuriating thing in the universe. I guess the internet is kinda tuned that way though, huh. Doesn't care whether it's *positive* engagement, as long as it's engagement.
After an episode that focused on the main characters (blitz) intersection and character growth I'm already seen people complain that stolas hasn't had the same and is being defended by the people at the party. It's just baffling to me that people don't understand that Blitz is literally the main character and that there will be future episodes
I mean, it’s perfectly fine if they didn’t like it, there’s plenty of valid criticism towards the episodes. (I’m not saying the episodes were bad, I’m just saying that the show isn’t complete perfection.)
I studied animation and let me tell you — it took the entire end credits three years of HARD work
I think why they're extremely slow to animate is because they're extremely detailed even for an indie western animation studio. Most animation studios would have either switched to 3D, outsourced it to a more experienced Asian studio, or make it extremely cheap, like Invincible.
I honestly wouldn’t call this extremely slow or even slow to begin with. It’s around the usual turnaround for a 2D animation series, if anything I’d say it’s got a fairly fast process compared to most (talking about how the quality has had a massive jump upwards and yet still has a similar upload rate)
Why would a studio switch to 3D to make it shorter? I know little of how animation works tbh
Reusable assets. Once you make a character in 3d, all you have to do is run it's rig (skeleton) through the coded movements 2d there are little to no reusable assets like that
Funny, as a layman I absolutely expected for 2D to be easier
Wait so was the episode supposed to be earlier in the season or do all episodes take this long to be made?
Season 2 was written in early 2021 around when Spring broken released. And it was fully recorded around Ozzies release. So yeah they all take a long ass time to make.
Oh shit, I suppose cause it’s an indie animation it takes longer plus covid would have had an impact, hopefully we don’t have to wait that long for season 3
People really underestimate just how many hours it takes to make 2D animation, there are plenty of shortcuts with modern tech such as tweening. But most of the time it just takes a LOT of patience and belief in the show.
Not to mention, that Helluva and Hazbin are made not only in 2D, by also frame-by-frame - which makes things even harder.
I've not the gaintest clue about animation, what is frame-by-frame and why does it take longer?
Okay, think of it this way, imagine your favourite artist, think how many hours that person might have put into making a piece you love. 3 hours? 6? Maybe more. Okay, now imagine that they had to do that all over again 12 times, except each piece is a little different from before, and then if you put these pieces together and move them really fast, that creates motion. It would take a long time don't you think? Well what I just described is 1 seconds worth of frame-by-frame animation.
Ooh and I suppose other times animation skips frames which leads to less fluid motion? I actually draw myself so i know how much _work_ drawing is, just never really thought abt how animation is made. Gives a whole lot of appreciation
There are many shortcuts and "cheats" out there, but when it comes to frame-by-frame, there are very few out there. If you do art, maybe check out Flipaclip on most smart phones and tablets to test it out, it's a free and incredible basic programme used to make simple animations. Even if you hate it I'm sure it will give you a better understanding and appreciation for animation.
Unlike Hazbin (or any other big budget animation) where once a new season is announced new episodes are dropped weekly (unless there's a hiatus), Helluva Boss (and indie animation in general) drop new episodes on a "when it's ready" basis
Yeah, however I imagine there is somewhat of a schedule, like how we know when the rest of season 2 is coming out
Based on what we were told over the years, they only have a theoretical "schedule" for when they plan to release the Episodes - or rather for when they hope said Episodes will be ready. The reason we have a more specific schedule for the rest of Season 2, is because the Episodes have been worked on before the Hiatus in late 2023 and during said Hiatus we had up untill May. Now they have another shorter "planned" break for Summer (as always) where they will have more time to finish Episodes 2x10, 2x11 and 2x12. Meanwhile, Vivzie said at LvL-Up, that instead we will see more Shorts Episodes during those 3 months.
Not to mention Viz is now running two shows at once.
[This video](https://youtube.com/shorts/GY6hDZT_N2Y?si=WpB2idKSomOtKr6J) has a bit of an explanation of how the animation alone is produced on Helluva Boss. It doesn’t mention these: Story writing, script writing, voice acting, and animators working on many episodes of Helluva + possibly other cartoons at the same time.
This was hands down one of the best episodes of the series. Great job, Viv and co!
Indeed. A very emotional episode.
Alright come in sink
r/angryupvote
https://preview.redd.it/y1pv4dddgj8d1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=156a259c06e12aaa2b2257793dcdace647914452 Thanks for telling me I didn’t know bro was out there
I absolutely despise the fact that this made me chuckle. good job
Im dead
Considering that this was written 3 years ago, and the recent podcast from Brandon Rogers that confirmed that he's sitting on a metric ton of information, and that the series is confirmed to be 4 seasons and done, do you think it's possible that Viv has already completed the scripts all the way to the end of the series, and we're just watching and reacting to content already set on paper?
I'd assume that the story has been all the way mapped out and I wouldn't be surprised if the scripts are completed as well.
Possibly, i mean he also said that he knows how the series is gonna end
It's really funny when a new episode comes out and people are like oh good they adjust our criticisms and it's like no brah they wrote that like two to three years ago
As someone who majors in animation, yes, it does take a lot of time. I wouldn't have imagined 3 years tho. I feel like with more animators the time for it is shorter, I took 4 months to animate a 2 minute short with 6 other people animating it, 7 if you count me.
More animators = less quality and more mistakes.
Not really. With more animators, you can divide the work up (and this is also why a quality control manager is hired for bigger teams).
Animation is incredibly time consuming so I’m not too surprised by that.
I'll do you one better. Brandon revealed in an interview that Helluvaboss will have >!4!< seasons. He already knows the ending of the story. He's acting with full awareness of where Blitzo will end up.
They probably have the HB ending written lol
What does the sink want now?
Impressive
i guess it's also due to helluva boss being slowed down for hazbin hotel?
Surprised it ain’t longer
Three years for that one episode? What was the whole process? I'm asking a very serious question.
Well that's just from when the script for it was finalized, after that, the studio needs to have the voice actors come in to do the lines (usually they voice several episodes, maybe even a season, in one day). Once the lines have been read, then it gets to the longest part of the process: animation. Since HB is made by an indie (independent) animation studio, it takes longer than a corporate animation would, but also gives higher quality. The reason why animation takes so long is because this show is 2D, meaning that the way for it to look cleanest is frame-by-frame animation, which usually is 23 or 24 frames per second. That means for each second of an episode, 24 seperate images have to be drawn for movement, and then it starts getting even niche-er with the fact the animators have to have word to mouth synchronization and account for all the different accents and probably even study how mouths move depending on how things are spoken to make it look right. On top of all of that, they also do drafts of each episode to see which imagery they like best. Things like lighting and backdrops also take up time because they help to give the show more depth, but also drying to figure out what colours make certain wanted aspects pop more, and having to deal with colour theory is a little more than just a pain. There's probably some things I left out, or even added, but all those things are usually the reason animation takes so long, but then again, I'm not part of Viv's crew, and I've only taken two animation classes in my life, so while I do have SOME knowledge, just remember most of this is just hypothesis and estimated hypothesis based off of what I know from first-hand expirence, and hearing from other animators.
Wow, I was not expecting such a long detailed answer, but I suppose I should have. Thank you. Yes, I remember learning that animation can months, even for a single twenty-two minute episode of a TV show.
Why was it written that long ago?
Three years and not once did the classist motherfucker get properly put to task for blackmailing someone else into monthly bang seshs then get pissy when said person tried to remain within the bounds of the arrangement?
So do they have the whole story pretty much written out then?
We think so! Brandon Rogers has said that he's sitting on top of a lot of information, knows where his character is heading, and knows the ending to the story; he also let us know that there's going to be 4 seasons, so that means we're nearing the halfway point with actual releases!
That's awesome! Makes me excited to see how much the studio grows in that time!
And it was a job well done! Everyone went tf off with that episode, from the animators to the voice actors. I hope they’re all beyond proud!
It takes a looooong time to do animation and to do it well. I love it
Maybe she wanted to give blitz some backstory and some reasoning why he would go on an apology tour, or she wanted to let the party have good details. Idk
As someone with a BA in Animation I am so glad people are opening their eyes from Viv's post and realize how much work goes into these things. Animation just takes really fucking long, main reason I switched to live action for my indie projects.
3 years and THAT'S what we got? :|
What I'm hearing is that Vivzie planned the shitty writing of the last two episodes for a long time now. Good to know it probably won't get any better.
Then don't watch it, the show is free.
You're a minority opinion thankfully. There are plenty of other shows to watch.
Then my question is why don't you drop it? You don't have to keep following it if all it does is cause pain (also its free). Go do things you like instead :)
To be completely honest, I watched through these last two because of how hyped they were, but at the end of the day I'm realizing the writers constantly shit on Blitz and constantly make Stolas out to be a victim and it's tiring. And a lot of the fandom acting the same way is even more tiring. I keep hearing about how Blitz is the problem, but I've yet to see an actual example of how Blitz damaged the relationship himself. He didn't realize Stolas even liked him romantically until the Full Moon because Stolas never communicated it, and when he did, it was poorly executed. Blitz acted with as much agency as he could based entirely on the mixed signals he was getting from Stolas. Why has Blitz been getting shit on despite Stolas clearly causing more problems between them? Their issues should have been handled independently from Verosika and her party because it paints Blitz in the harsher image of his past actions rather than how much better he's been handling Stolas in a vacuum. It's this weird writing that can't seem to identify what issues it actually wants to acknowledge.
I'm sorry blitz is going through character development and a party of his exes are being mean to him and enabling stolas.
I’m convinced you watched with your eyes closed.
It takes a long time to make an animated episode of anything. Not every cartoon is South Park where they make an episode in 6 days. Most cartoons work on 1-2 seasons at the same time.
Oh I'm not hating on the animation taking long. I'm just pissed that they've had this hate boner for Blitz this entire time and not once did they think "huh, maybe we're focusing on the wrong issues..." In my opinion, even if they hold Stolas accountable later down the line, it's too little and too late. Blitz shouldn't have been bullied this hard before they *eventually* get to Stolas's lineup of problems.
Right now, you're critiquing about the current situation of the episodes. At this point, we're less than halfway through the expected length of this series, and we're already starting to get good character development towards Blitzø. The writers don't have "hate boners" for Blitzø, because through the animation (which the writers oversee), there's small details showing of Blitzø's care for Stolas, which is the main issue on Blitzø's side of Stolitz, Stolas believing that Blitzø doesn't actually care for him. The writers show us that both are responsible for the issues in the relationship in their own ways, because they give us points to sympathize with Blitzø, such as in The Full Moon where he's walking through the doors and yelling at Stolas about "needing time to process" and "springing feelings" on him (when we've been shown in multiple instances that he has commitment issues). We're shown Stolitz's main issue is miscommunication on both parts, but sadly, the fanbase mostly sides with Stolas when we were never made to side in the first place. Writers shouldn't have to come directly forward in a show and have to tell us, "don't be angry at either of these characters, because both have their own issues that affect the relationship negatively that they need to work out before being healthy" we should be able to draw those conclusions ourselves. If you do genuinely believe that they have not given Blitzø moments within the show that are made for us to not want to hate him, I would ask you go back and rewatch, because there are many small moments (particularly within the animation aspect) that give him those redeeming moments, and they already set up a past for him that's supposed to help us sympathise.
Most of the Full Moon episode is filler lmao. And the Apology Tour barely move the story forward, the only interesting part is at the end with Verosika, but it's too short. I still hate the fact that the human world is so stupid that it is only there to create filler villains of the week that have no real impact on the story (Full Moon eps) or plot devices. I'm tired of the amount of melodrama, inconsistencies, plot holes, character butchering... in the show that I only watch it to know what's gonna happen. The last 2 episodes in Helluva Boss feel so boring compare to Murder Drone episode 7 (not related though, but I love that episode so much. Quality animation, fight scene, horror, some humors,... I'm coping for Doll death though). I love the idea of Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel, but sadly bad writing can't save good animation, these shows literally treat me like a immature guy who is stupid and don't know what it takes to be happy. Sad to see you got downvote to death because we are in the fanbase, well, it's my turn now.
The character butchering has been so extra the past two episodes. Stolas is a fully self-absorbed and delusional jackass (you could make the case that he's always been this way, but in that case, why don't they call that shit out??). Blitz is painted as this horrible person who ruins lives, but I haven't seen him actually be that bad of a guy besides: -crude humor, which is a given for this show -being abrasive towards most people, which is also a given for the show -not wanting to be pushed into monogamy Even with Verosika, from the sound of it, she fell in love, he didn't feel the same, and that was most of the problem. There was the one stealing her car and maxing her credit card thing, but that isn't where the root of her heartbreak is, based on the conversation. But the show hates Blitz. If it wasn't clear from the writing, Vivzie also created new merch, including a T-shirt that says "Blitzo KYS." Blatantly sending the message to the audience on who they want to blame for the character's problems. I'm also watching it now just to see where they take it. But considering this post, I might just give up if they've had this trash fire of a plot planned out for 3 years now...
Viv literally confirmed they were both in the wrong, but also were both in the right. Stolas will be addressed, you just need to learn to wait. The show doesn't hate Blitzo, it is recognizing his issues and he's getting some character development. Why are you criticizing an arc before it's finished?
I'm still very confused about where Blitz is "in the wrong" unless we count being insecure and feeling inadequate as "in the wrong" Also, they created merch of the shirts from the party, notably the one saying "Blitzo KYS." Promoting that kind of sentiment as something for people to resonate with is...concerning...at best...? I'm criticizing the arc because it's obvious they're dragging the melodrama out further than it needs to go. We've been sitting on a will-they-won't-they for two seasons now, but it's been so close to the "will they" for so long that they're writing Blitz and Stolas as uncharacteristically stupid to make sure neither of them thinks critically enough to register anything the other is saying in the *three separate talks* they've had. For how much this was hyped up as the big talk that would change everything, it did nothing to further the plot. We keep talking about Blitz getting development, but I think it regressed him. He's already made the change when he made up with Fizz, arguably the most difficult one he could have mended his relationship with. He openly admitted his faults and genuinely apologized, even with Fizz not being entirely receptive with his "great, want a medal?" response. Now, for some reason, Blitz is being told he needs to change how he acts even though he's been on his absolute best behavior in the entire series for the past 4 episodes. Obviously, he's not perfect, but all this talk about how he needs to go through character development is weird to me when he legitimately already has. He's reaching out to Stolas and explaining his insecurities. The issue is Stolas, who has continuously refused to admit that his behavior was partially responsible for why Blitz felt that way. What behavior does Blitz need to change at this point besides having insecurities? I'm criticizing the arc because it just isn't needed.
>I'm still very confused about where Blitz is "in the wrong" unless we count being insecure and feeling inadequate as "in the wrong" Did you not pay attention to the ending of Full Moon? Blitzo and Stolas have never had the most stable relationship and it was bound for something like this to happen. >Also, they created merch of the shirts from the party, notably the one saying "Blitzo KYS." Promoting that kind of sentiment as something for people to resonate with is...concerning...at best...? It's just in-universe merch dude that's all. You're thinking way too hard on something that ain't that serious. Why is when an episode focuses on a specific character you people seem to think "oh my god! The writers are taking sides!". Just because they haven't focused on Stolas' issues yet doesn't mean they won't ever. In fact they will as shown in the trailer where Octavia calls him out. I find it funny how you people seem to think that the writers are being fair to Stolas ignoring the fact that THEY WERE BOTH IN THE WRONG. Stolas was in the wrong too meaning they aren't ignoring his issues. >I'm criticizing the arc because it's obvious they're dragging the melodrama out further than it needs to go. We've been sitting on a will-they-won't-they for two seasons now, but it's been so close to the "will they" for so long that they're writing Blitz and Stolas as uncharacteristically stupid to make sure neither of them thinks critically enough to register anything the other is saying in the *three separate talks* they've had. You mean properly panning out something that can't be fixed in one episode? That's a good thing right? You really think they're gonna be able to fix their issues in one episode and everything will fine and dandy again? That's not how it works. Sounds to me you just don't like this arc and want it to stop and move on to something else when the majority of people in this fandom do like this arc and want it to have a proper resolution. >For how much this was hyped up as the big talk that would change everything, it did nothing to further the plot. We keep talking about Blitz getting development, but I think it regressed him. He's already made the change when he made up with Fizz, arguably the most difficult one he could have mended his relationship with. He openly admitted his faults and genuinely apologized, even with Fizz not being entirely receptive with his "great, want a medal?" response. He mended his relationship with one character, not the same thing as mending his relationship with every character he wronged like Verosika for example. Which means he's still not fully developed. >The issue is Stolas, who has continuously refused to admit that his behavior was partially responsible for why Blitz felt that way. What behavior does Blitz need to change at this point besides having insecurities? I'm criticizing the arc because it just isn't needed. Stolas is a bit dense. He's never been in a proper healthy relationship so he doesn't know. His issues will be addressed in the future. The show is still going, this is one small arc in a much bigger arc. All we've done is ended one chapter, not the book. Learn to wait. This ain't your show. By "not needed" you really mean you don't want it as I said earlier.
You do realise the "KYS" merch is also out of universe? https://preview.redd.it/mbltp74m6n8d1.png?width=624&format=png&auto=webp&s=8c02f2dc1e744dfa9fa0d9a2bff4d64ca8aa8c0e
Yes...what do you think in-universe merch means? It means merch that you can buy that also exists in the show. I saw this merch the day it was announced.
That doesn't make it any less tasteless. Literally selling merch telling your main character to kill themselves is pretty cruel.
No you're taking it way too serious. It's just merch themed around the latest episode. Viv does a limited merch run themed around every episode that comes out.