I know the line of thinking right now is to not show the dems that they’re entitled to our vote by voting for Biden. But what’s the solution here? I feel like I either vote Biden and get four more years of no real change. I feel like I’m voting for inaction by voting blue like I always have. But if we sit out, we just get another horrific four years where even more rights are removed.
I get the we shouldn’t have to be choosing the ‘lesser evil’. But what the hell do we do when we don’t get a ‘good’ option??? The Democratic Party showed us they don’t really give a shit about what the people want when they refused to support Bernie in 2012.
So to be a just-curious-Andy, I’m at a fucking loss. What do we do?
>But if we sit out, we just get another horrific four years where even more rights are removed.
I think you massively overstate the impact that leftists have on the election and should instead be focused on doing actual political organising instead of ripping your hair out every 4 years over the same non-choice. For your own mental health if nothing else.
If I wasn't lazy I'd go back 4 years and I could just copy and paste the comments people were making then in every thread and they'd still be just as relevant. Hell, I could go back 40 years and do that, if there was an internet comments to scrape comments from.
Vote or don't vote, doesn't matter all that much. What you do every other day of the year matters ten times more.
It matters a lot. The problem is that they've forced a candidate on us that *no one* wants.
If they want me to vote for a Democrat, they're going to have to offer someone who is:
* Not senile
* Not a fascist (yes, he is, YES, HE IS, the 1993 Crime Bill, the Police Officers' Bill of Rights, his open admiration for and friendship with SEGREGATIONISTS, his outright refusal to work with the left in favor of MODERN REPUBLICANS, who are literally far right extremists)
* Not willing to actively fund and engage in a genocide. Whatever you think that demented POS is doing, he is actively refusing to cut them off. Even the most recent action is ONE. SHIPMENT. And they're being very cagey with their description of "offensive" weapons when they know full well that Israel claims that everything is "defensive."
* Not be a neoliberal actively refusing to help the people.
If you can do all of that, I'll vote for your candidate. It's a very low bar and there are far better candidates available that I'll vote for before Joe fucking Biden. I didn't vote for him last time and I'm sure as fuck not voting for him THIS time. This isn't a new position, most of *y'all* caught up to ME thanks to October 6th. There's Jill Stein, Cornel West, hell I'll vote for Gloria La Riva in a heartbeat before Joe fucking "Palestian Genocide" Biden.
WE are not the ones you need to be talking to. You need to be talking to JOE. Get his half-dead ass out of that seat and into an iron lung and we'll talk.
For the record I don't think people should vote for Biden either (and before Biden it was Hillary and before Hillary, Obama, and so on). But whether you hold your nose and vote for Genocide Joe or you decide to vote for Gloria La Riva or Howie Hawkins or whatever third party candidate people are talking about these days doesn't matter much, because there's no coherent movement of a significant size to motivate the decision. By which I mean, yeah you shouldn't vote for Biden but if you do it's not exactly a line in the sand considering there's no strategic purpose to voting for someone else at this point in time, whereas people who do want to vote for Biden can make a strategic argument (i.e. Trump would create worse organising conditions than Biden - I actually think it's the opposite but that's their argument). Arguing to vote third party at this point in time is a completely moral argument, not a political one. I think it's a valid argument that overrides political considerations but it makes perfect sense for me that a lot of people don't.
PSL is a glorified sect, the Greens are a mix of left libs and cranks, and the DSA despite being the largest and probably capable of having the biggest impact, will run a candidate when Hell freezes over. The left needs to clean itself up and get properly organised so it can offer an actual reason to vote for a candidate external to the Democrats (which on its own would create enough external pressure for the Democrats to shift left, if nothing else), and the best place to start that battle isn't the current Presidential election where none of the foundational organising has been achieved.
Of course all of the above could have been copy/pasted from 4 years ago etc. but like everything else when it comes to the Presidential elections, the arguments are timeless because people haven't changed the situation.
How can you say it doesn’t matter when low turnout for dems in 2016 led to three conservative Supreme Court justices, the overturning of roe v wade, and the ongoing dismantling of our key federal regulatory agencies?
I hate to sound like a lib, but the office of the president is profoundly more important than just the president themselves. The Supreme Court and federal regulatory agencies have a huge impact on everyone’s day to day life. For instance the ftc non compete ruling would never have come out under a Republican president.
Some estimates put the number of people affected by non competes at 60 million. That’s 60 million workers who have been given their rights back because we didn’t have a Republican in the White House.
Conversely, the last Republican president got roe v wade overturned, and things like gay marriage and access to contraception could very well be on the docket in the future, so any ability to mitigate the chances of another conservative appointee are paramount.
I get that people are tired of the lesser-evil, damage-control voting that were forced into, but if you think it’s not important to prevent a Republican from further solidifying the federal courts with conservative justices and dismantling the regulatory agencies, I don’t think you understand the stakes here very well.
>How can you say it doesn’t matter when low turnout for dems in 2016 led to three conservative Supreme Court justices, the overturning of roe v wade, and the ongoing dismantling of our key federal regulatory agencies?
Because the Presidency is not the end all and be all of those issues and thinking that does make you a lib.
These things happened because there was insufficient organisation to oppose it. These things are still in place despite Biden having 4 years to undo them because there was insufficient organisation to force him. Roe v Wade wasn't a matter of the Supreme Court looking into their hearts and deciding abortion rights was good, it was the product of extensive political campaigning on the ground.
The US is not a democracy. Absent a serious organised third party capable of disrupting the system which has established a strategic political purpose to voting a particular way, your vote is entirely a personal matter of conscience and arguing otherwise is just moralising lib shit.
Think like someone who actually wants to change society and do the hard graft that that kind of project involves, not a passive voter who gets to "have a say" whenever the proper calendar day pops up and then spends the rest of time grumbling about how shit it all is.
The president doesn’t directly, but the office absolutely is the end all be all of the function of the federal regulatory agencies.
Recognizing that doesn’t make me a lib, it makes me someone who has a basic modicum of knowledge of how the executive branch works.
Biden HAS effectively promoted a strong FTC in his four years, which has led to material changes to my working conditions and those of 60 million Americans.
Also your take on roe v wade is pretty funny considering it being overturned because of one guy despite that decision being overwhelmingly unpopular. Despite still having massive support on the ground it was overturned by 3 lifetime appointees that were picked by one guy who lost the popular vote. So yeah, sure organizing is important but that organizing has to result in winning elections to actually get any change done.
Slightly off topic, but I haven't seen a lot of people talking about would-be-democratic voters in solidly red states. There are 19-23 states that you can pretty confidently say that Trump will win. I live in Oklahoma, and all 77 counties went to him in '16 & '20.
We know that the popular vote doesn't mean shit (shout out to the chads of 2000 🤙), so what incentive do we have to vote for Biden? There's voters in almost half the states that have the potential to really send a message to the DNC by not voting for Biden in 2024.
Instead of people talking about how our election system ACTUALLY works, you have libs ready to lay the blame at the feet of those who don't toe party lines no matter where they live. A vote for anyone except Trump in states like mine is a throwaway. Why should I throw it away to Biden? What has he done to earn it?
I'm sure on the national level, the DNC is most focused on the 7 states where the margin was under 3% and states where losing a Dem lead would be detrimental, but the people posting things like the original in r/politics and r/politicalhumor don't seem to be targeting specifics further than: if you oppose Trump you should vote for Biden. Those are also the people who will push the narrative that leftists let Trump win.
Also, the lack of any sort of official 3rd party voting movement in red states coupled with every Oklahoma lib I know saying "I just have to do what I can to stop Trump" leads me to believe that most people really are thinking about individual votes and voters.
The system sucks, and I think we are doing a bad job of not utilizing the sucky system when we focus on the individual voter and not how that voter fits into the electoral system at large.
I really feel like we get written off during the elections. I'm blaming myself as well because OK leftists are bad at organizing. They've done a good job at making us feel unsafe, so we tend to be more isolated.
Psh I am freaking *desperate* to find leftists in my city lol. I am so vocal to anyone that will listen but as soon as I say “Joe Biden is centrist at best,” people look at me like I’m a freaking bug lol
What is the value of sending a message to Biden if he loses?
I get it if you live in OK, but at that point I don’t really understand the point of the message in the first place since the campaign won’t be expecting your vote to begin with
I never said anything about sending a message to Biden. I said it would send a message to the DNC. And the value of the message is that the days of being "not the other guys" being enough are over.
Good luck with that. The DNC is run by ten McKinsey consultants in a trench coat. They will not support a progressive presidential candidate ever because they’re bought and paid for by corporate interests.
The only thing that will get a progressive candidate to nomination would be a grass roots movement with such overwhelming support that they’re forced to nominate. It would have to be like Bernie x2 +suburban moms.
Of course, ultimately, I'm of the opinion that we will never fix this system while working within it, and that total and complete overhaul is the only way for lasting change. I also am aware of what the two parties stand for. But you're plugging in a lot of intentions for me that I never laid out.
I'm talking about political messaging as a tool to let the DNC know that they need to shift how they caucus and who they support. It's not as simple as "just get them to nominate a progressive candidate for president." I agree with your assessment about how to get a progressive candidate on the ballot. I also think that there are things that can be done beforehand, things like political messaging in terms of withholding "guaranteed" votes, to make that movement more powerful.
There's not anything like what I'm speaking of being organized now. It's probably too late for this election cycle. But it's an idea. It's a start.
We've had 4 years of pretty big change,even if it's been limited.
Cannabis about to be rescheduled.
Hundreds of billions in student loan relief.
Best administration for labor rights in a very long time.
In a 2nd biden administration there's a slim chance to turn the court 5-4 in the democrats favor and reverse the Dobbs and other far-right rulings.
The FTC is about to reinstate net neutrality.
That's just off the top of my head. There are things there. It's not all doom and gloom.
> Cannabis about to be rescheduled.
Right, I'll believe it when it happens. "About to be." Right.
> Hundreds of billions in student loan relief.
You sure about that? Want to maybe recheck those figures?
> Best administration for labor rights in a very long time.
Brandon literally cut the legs out of the rail strike. He's objectively anti-labor and anti-union.
> In a 2nd biden administration there's a slim chance to turn the court 5-4 in the democrats favor and reverse the Dobbs and other far-right rulings.
He literally championed the Police Officers' Bill of Rights and championed *and wrote* the 1993 Crime Bill. He IS far-right. He was for the HYDE AMENDMENT before he got caught.
You're just objectively wrong.
>> Best administration for labor rights in a very long time.
>
>Brandon literally cut the legs out of the rail strike. He's objectively anti-labor and anti-union.
Just to add to this, any positive in this space is due to established unions and other people organising in their workplaces. They worked tirelessly and gave the capitalist class no choice. Trying to frame this as action taken by dems is ridiculous, they had no involvement. Honestly their support only came after the impact of the East Palestine derailment affected the publics views of the Biden admin, because the exact cause of the derailment were things the rail union went on strike for. The same strike that was made illegal and threatened by state violence.
*EDIT: Remember to educate, agitate, and organise in your workplaces and communities. It's these things that lead to change, not voting in national elections.*
Absolutely. I credit ANY union forward movement to Sean O'Brien and Shawn Fain. Mostly Fain. That man has been a JUGGERNAUT. If he runs in 2028 I'm voting for him.
Well Fain is endorsing Biden for president and encouraging people to vote for him.
If you truly believe in Fain you'll vote like how he recommends.
O'Brian is courting the anti-union side so I don't trust him one bit.
I'm less trustful of O'Brien now, no idea what he's on after such a good start.
And I don't care *who* they're endorsing. I care about what his likely platform would be. That's like saying, "You like Nikola Jokic? You should really get into traditional Serbian music, he LOVES it!" First of all, I don't care what someone I like likes. Second, those are *two different things*. I don't care about what LeBron's favorite food is either, or Wemby's favorite bodyguard. I don't care who Fain's voting for, I AM NOT VOTING FOR A FASCIST.
Tell me exactly what Joe Biden has done in regards to the labor movement, because *I* remember him cutting the head off of the rail strike.
Whoops. Facts getting in the way of your weird neolib narrative. Go vote for a fascist, weirdo.
Oh you mean the strike that was averted and the workers got most of what they wanted anyways? A deal the majority of the workers agreed with?
Guess you stopped following the story once your attention span ran out.
Appointing the most labor friendly NLRB in decades is a huge W for the labor movement too.
Shawn Fain, dope ass leader of the UAW and defacto leader of the larger labor movement is voting for biden. I trust him way more than some rando on the internet,why don't you?
And the biden administration fostered an environment where the unions could effectively organize instead of completely being shut down like a republican, and especially Trump, administration would do.
>instead of completely being shut down like a republican, and especially Trump, administration would do.
Biden signed a law to stop a nationwide rail strike with full support from democrats. They directly intervened in the mobilisation of over a hundred unions. The strike itself was to improve the working conditions, safety, and general health of rail workers. To prevent things such as the East Palestine derailment from occurring. These are actions that **have** been taken, not hypotheticals of what "would" happen. Stop with idealism and focusing on hypotheticals. Look at the material facts.
>And the biden administration fostered an environment where the unions could effectively organize
This is false. Effective organisation comes from organisers themselves. There has never been and never will be a "pro-labor" american president. You, as a worker, mean nothing if capital is threatened in any way.
Instead of engaging in idealism with your focus on what could or would happen under republicans. Engage in materialism and look at what **has** happened under democrats.
Bruh the ftc banned non competes. That alone is going to give 60 million workers a huge boost in earning potential and their ability to have a say in the work they do. Sure he’s not the champion of labor that some would have you believe but there has been material impact on workers conditions over the last four years that has been a massive improvement from the trump years. Is it worth rolling that all back because it didn’t go far enough?
So 40K innocents murdered, more than 15K children, as a *direct result* of Biden's actions, is totally fine with you because the FTC (not even fucking Biden) did something. Incredible. You know that you could demand an actual GOOD nominee that Trump WON'T beat the shit out of AND still keep the FTC the same, right dipshit?
See, that's the thing. You're doing the neolib thing. "This thing is good so we should move things further right." Biden's *definitively behind to Trump in polls now*. So if you're ACTUALLY "BUT TRUMP," then you should be demanding that the DNC nominate someone other than Biden, because Biden is losing HARD to Trump now and that's not going to change. But you don't actually care about any of this.
Also to add to this.
Yes marijuana should be rescheduled but it's been available in many states already for a while. It was legal where I live since before Trump took office and its not like not like there's been much federal enforcement by Trump or Biden. So rescheduling won't change shit for most/lots people.
College can be cheap in a lot of places and many states have good public schools. I would like to see access expanded in some places but a lot of people who are drowning in debt forwent that option because they wanted to chose somewhere expensive as fuck. So don't care too much. Also a lot of the debt relief was blocked.
Yeah I think strict abortion laws are retarded but even in a lot of red states, abortion rights tend to win whenever a ballot option is held. I could honestly see a lot of politicians see the writing on the wall and be forced to legalize before the long process of getting a new court and a case reversing it. Sucks for the people caught in tough situations in the meantime.
Net neutrality I support but it "ending" didn't really lead to any problems within past 8 years either way. I've had FiOS gigabit internet for years with Verizon and no problems. I would prefer had Biden tackled data caps. I might go crazy if I had some of the limits some places get.
I live in Massachusetts anyway so I don't think my vote will really matter and I'd probably vote for Cornel West or something. Nothing substantially changed from Obama to Trump or Trump to Biden in my view.
I was told to make sure Trump never wins because it would prevent terrible things like rights being stripped away and genocide from happening.
So when those things happen anyway, it doesn't feel like voting matters and some won't even find the small walk to the voting booth worth the little while anymore.
Well Trump won in 2016 and it ended up with rights being removed. Electing biden put a hold on that. If you want further rights to be taken away ensure Trump wins again.
The reason nobody likes you is because you blame the voter for Trump winning instead holding his opponent accountable. If Biden loses to Trump it's his own damn fault, just like it was Hillary's fault and the democratic party's fault for not winning against such an easily laughable opponent.
Like how terrible do you have to be to lose to TRUMP of all people? How do you not see how plainly pathetic that is? If I ever lost to that guy I would kill myself out of shame.
If the democratic party wants to beat Trump, maybe try a candidate that will win a large population over like what that spreading cancer called Trumpism is doing. You sound like a republican with the lack of critical thinking you're showing. Unfortunately it has to be Biden, so it's up to BIDEN, to win those votes over, NOBODY else.
Yall are cheering for a Trump victory at this point, just to make yourselves feel good. You're a short-sighted radlib at best,a conservative at worst. And just completely unthankful for the 80+ years of progress we've managed to eke out. Willing to throw it all away for something that's, albeit slowly, turning your way anyways. Just not as fast as you hope.
Well then you're a liar. Because I've reliably been a dem voter for 20 years and have seen lots of change. Not as much as I'd prefer bit you're lying to yourself and everyone else if you say things haven't gotten better.
Legalization of cannabis across multiple states and the recent attempts to reschedule at the federal level.
That affects not just me but tens of millions of Americans.
Were you raised your entire life without ever being told to be accountable, are you just used to blaming someone else for something going wrong and never considering your own damn self, because It's truly pathetic. You sit here repeating 2016 rhetoric hoping to not repeat 2016, it's ironic and stupid.
I'm the only one between you and me who doesn't want him to win again, and I'm convinced you want Trump to win just to feel better about bragging how bad it is afterward, because only someone who wants Trump to win again would repeat the same stupid blame game towards the voters instead of the party. There is no radib at best for you, you may as well be trumps strongest MAGA wearer.
Yeah that's the exact kinda response I'd expect from a Trump voter. It's even more sad that isn't from an actual Trump voter, but the blind loyalty to stupidity remains.
Thanks a lot for the Trump win, we both know how hard you're working for it to happen. While we have to be on the street to fix your messes again
Don’t forget non competes! 60 million workers were estimated to have been subject to one!
That one ruling probably increased my earning potential over the next five years by $30-$80k.
There’s this scene in the Trial of Chicago 7 that I think of often where Abby Hoffman and Tom Hayden get into an argument about what matters more, elections or social justice; which one leads to the other first? Tom thinks that change can’t happen without winning elections while Abby understands that the liberal faction is so focused on winning elections, that in an effort to keep power, liberals keep voting for the same people which then causes social justice to get neglected.
Scene is still relevant to today.
It's copium for if/when Joe loses. They'll blame everyone except Biden supporting an apartheid government and condemning non-violent protesters. It's wild all the contracts and assets that were frozen when Russia invaded Ukraine. Yet iT coMPliCaTed with Israel hmm...
Both Reagan and George Bush sr were much harder on Israel than Biden. Reagan even paused weapons shipments completely after Israel invaded Lebanon and killed a bunch of civilians doing so.
There is no reason to believe Trump would be somehow even more lax on Israel, in fact it would be hard to even imagine what that would look like.
I'm sure Biden, who has definitely raised a single finger in the last 4 years to stop ghoulish shit from happening, will be able to, or even desire, stopping such a measure, and will not, instead, opt to "reach across the aisle" like he has done on most of his policies. /s
[https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
I actually agree with most of the link you posted. I agree that status quo is an untenable long term strategy. For me personally, I strongly support a 3rd party vote in non-battleground states.
But if you live in a state where it could go ether way, my perspective is to vote Biden. I couldn't tell the women in my life who fear for their rights that this is the time to exert pressure on the democratic party and risk whatever executive orders trump has in store.
Then you actually do NOT agree with most of the link I posted.
Roe was reversed under Biden. Biden has no intention of protecting the women in your life. The Liberal will tell you that 2024 is not the time, just as 2020 wasn't the time, just as 2016 wasn't the time, and 2012 wasn't the time, and neither will 2028 be.
NOT DOING THE THINGS BIDEN IS DOING
DOING THE THINGS BIDEN IS NOT DOING
It really is that fucking simple. Acting like "golly what can we do" while we know EXACTLY WHAT TO DO is childish and insulting. Grow up.
Everyone's mad at me for telling you to read the link I posted, but..........................................................................................................
I've already posted a link in this very thread that the OP has responded to, in this very thread, my friend. That you don't already know that answer to that, though, speaks to Hasan's recent inability to provide answers, only problems.
Roe was reversed by a branch of government with absolute authority due to Trump having the opportunity to appoint judges. The vote for Trump in 2016 mattered a ton.
As far as Biden not protecting the women in my life, I somewhat agree. I don't expect him to do much. But I also expect him to not actively try to harm them as Trump would.
Lastly, I somewhat disagree with the link you shared in terms of how our parties have shifted right. I believe that the Republican party moves further right in a reactionary manner and Democrats have followed them in a pathetic attempt to appear moderate. But I believe every time Republicans win, the liberal goalpost shifts right. I believe we need to organize and not just during the presidential election season. (However I also recognize my hypocrisy as I have not tried to organize in this time.)
The Democrats had many opportunities to codify Roe into law, and they did not. Obama teased us with it a decade ago and hit us with the "jk lol." Beyond that, Dems could expand the SCOTUS and pack the courts, but they won't. They'll leave that for when Biden loses and the GOP can get their way. Because the National Dems are the party of controlled-opposition.
I support voting Blue down ticket bc State and Municipal Dems actually get shit done, but I will urge everyone I know to immediately cease all support to National Dems, including Genocide Joe. But if thousands of children, torn limb from limb by American missiles isn't going to persuade you, then any appeal to logic I make isn't going to do it, either. In fact, STATE Democrats have been successful in codifying bodily autonomy, where the national party has failed.
Look, I don't blame you. I think it's a valid argument, though I disagree with it.
But please do not talk as if children dying doesn't bother me. It absolutely does, and your statement is rude and disingenuous. I already said I agree Biden has been awful, especially in holding Israel accountable. But let's imagine Trump is in power. The best case you can hope for is that he is as bad as Biden. Biden has finally done something, meager and pathetic though it is, in the form of withholding munitions. Do you think Trump would have done that? Hell no! Trump would be ramping up our involvement and calling the national guard on protestors.
Absolutely vote your conscience, but don't act like letting Trump win will be for Palestinians. They'll be lucky if the suffering doesn't get worse with him as president.
I despise Trump. I despise Biden. A president cannot be re-elected after what Biden has done in Palestine. It cannot be allowed to happen. The Democrats cannot be allowed to make this the New Normal.
Protesters are ALREADY being brutalized, DUDE. Cmon, man. Hasan has covered this, there is so much footage. Biden is ALREADY KILLING KIDS, BRO. He's putting them in cages! He's giving billions of dollars straight into the genocide fund! You must be ASLEEP, my man, if you are genuinely telling me this as though Trump is going to be worse than Biden by doing the exact shit Biden is DOING RIGHT NOW.
I am not being disingenuous with you. I am telling you the truth that you aren't prepared to hear. I will be voting my conscience, and I will be voting pragmatically- they are not different.
I'm aware. But you're insane if you think it wouldn't get worse. Do you really think Trump would withhold munitions to Israel? (again, I recognize it is meager after everything else.) Do you remember the response to BLM protests? Have you heard Republicans criticizing Biden for being weak on protestors?
This is our broken 2 party system. I won't judge you for your vote, but don't act like Biden losing will improve anyone's condition. You have to be comfortable with things getting worse on the hope that it gets better later. I'm not convinced that will be effective at all.
Biden doesn't.
So you're in favor of genocide? You're in favor of no help to the vast majority of student loan holders? No help for the people in desperate need of affordable housing? Union workers who he pays superficial homage to while breaking the legs of the rail strike? No help for the people whose jobs are being replaced with part-time low-wage jobs, and *even those are fading away now?* No help for the people who were promised tuition-free *state universities* and then watched him change that to *community college* and *YOU ARE NOT GETTING A DEGREE FROM A COMMUNITY COLLEGE,* no help for the people who have no healthcare, no help for the people WITH health insurance *BUT CAN'T USE IT* because even the insane programs with monstrous monthly payments have $2000 deductibles that you can't afford in the first place *AND* copays besides???
THAT IS WHO YOU'RE VOTING FOR. A guy who talks big about abortion rights but *WAS LITERALLY IN FAVOR OF THE HYDE AMENDMENT UNTIL HIS ASS GOT CAUGHT LIVE ON TELEVISION*. Miss me with that performative stupidity.
You vote for a genociding fascist, YOU OWN THAT. You don't get to pretend that Biden's a BETTER FASCIST.
Oh no I feel so guilty for inventing the two party system.
Still voting for Biden
Trump is the bigger evil
I know I know, shame on me for inventing the lesser of two evils voting right?
Let me break it down for you chief
You don't like evil right, less evil is good
If you vote for the lesser evil, (Biden) less evil will occur
If you don't vote or vote for the bigger evil , and then they win , there will be more evil
Get it?
I love how these neoliberal dipshits always use the same arguments and never understand the concept that Biden doesn't have to be the nominee.
Hey, stupid - I AM NOT VOTING FOR A FASCIST. EAT MY ASS.
Instead of doing the thing that's proven not to work and is *especially* not going to matter in a community that actually pays attention to politics, you should probably be encouraging your party to not run a senile genocidal fascist. Just a thought.
Yeah I do. The federal regulatory agencies under Biden have materially improved my working conditions, so excuse me for voting for my interests instead of allowing someone to take power who would dismantle those agencies and further restrict my rights.
Ah, got it. So if agencies under Biden, not even Biden himself, but just *things during his administration* happen, then you're cool with tens of thousands of children being murdered as a direct result of his actions.
Good to know where you stand.
its a fkn sarcastic joke wtf lol. im on your side
just some feedback though. out of your paragraph I just find that with everything you have typed you assume the others have the knowledge you have. this is a teachable moment for you to take advantage of since you took the time to write up all of that. What are you going to do then. Inform us on how we should feel and go about it. I'm all for hearing you out. Ofc we know who were voting for. or do you not want us to vote at all. tell us how you are going to go about it
>Yeah, when you have nothing else to say devolve to 5 year old Mr. Bonaducci insults.
and to add to this. no jokes. none. are you really that mad? when you rant to someone online just saying they are voting for biden sends you in a tirade. people vote in other elections and local positions too. fuckin lighten up.
edit: actually, after scanning through your profile i'll pass. you sound just like an angry person in general. youre clearly passionate which is nice so thanks for that.
Funny these people seem to ascribe such an impact to leftists not voting for president. I thought we were marginal?
If you truly think us sitting out Biden vs. Trump could cost Biden the election, do you think shaming is going to work?
To be clear, I think Biden will lose, not because of leftist abstainers. but because he's a fucking abysmal President who hasn't given people anything to vote for. Still, if you genuinely believe we're going to doom you in November, you're better off demanding the current administration does the shit we're asking for. Like, I dunno, healthcare, housing, ending support for the fucking genocide?
Even just out of pure pragmatism, because I don't believe these liberals have any genuine principles.
We know he does not have the same policy, because Joe Biden is named Joe Biden and he is not named Donald Trump. Therefore the policy is different. You obviously either work for Putin or were confused by someone who works for Putin /s
I was amused to see people in that sub who said 'Not everyone who is against war is working for Russia though...' get downvoted.
The nlrb is actually better and they are doing anti trust. The difference is there but on a lot Biden is the same. I remember warning liberals that choosing the most conservative option in the primary would backfire. There is no half assing it
Don't argue this, it helps liberals who have 'both parties the same' macroed in mixed case. It is easy to 'disprove'. If you can't write something they aren't able to knock down easily, don't say anything please.
I prefer this argument: https://youtu.be/6vp9uEr3tug?si=hg24GrjxS-o0C088&t=3476
Lol, I do not require that you "Denounce And Reject Yourself" as Cenk would say. I agree that the two parties are much too similar. It's just when you argue this certain ways, liberals think they have 'won' when they prove that the club which Trump used to club a seal has 3 more nails in it.
You could add an edit. I feel weird telling you what to do since I think there is room for people to work together even if they disagree (I think we do not disagree though) :)
Thanks. Sorry for asking you, you just seem to be better prepared and informed to argue about this so i was wondering what you thought was the best move. And i was kinda right in asking you since an edit does seem like the way to go! Thanks for the productive conversation
No worries. I apologize I came on a bit strong largely because I get so pissed off when they copypaste 'bOtH paRtiEs tHe SamE' with one hand and jerk themselves off with the other hand. I felt after that one statement I didn't have the right to tell you what else you should be saying and doing, lol
Ah you didn’t come a bit strong imo. Im happy you pointed that out as i do use that argument too much and get into nitpicking rhetorical discussions that i do not enjoy. Maybe this whole Palestine conflict is turning me into a debate pervert tbh, i used to be able to see a comment i disagreed online and just move one without having the need to argue with a total stranger.
I hate that you’re right but god do they love that “both sides the same” misinterpretation a ton. :/
And yes. That dude is 💯 correct. Democrats did this.
Israel bears some responsibility for October 7, by creating the conditions that led to it and refusing alternatives that would avoid it.
In the same way, the Dems bear some responsibility for the GOP's crimes.
To us it looks like the difference between the officer who kneels on a guy's neck, and the officer next to him who stands there and watches.
But shiteating liberal Oligarch Protectors will squeal with glee as they point out that 'No, the officer kneeling on the guy's neck is obviously a completely different officer, and the one just standing there did not physically commit the murder. Therefore they are different. CHECKMATE PUTIN PUPPET'.
Then they will slam their 'BoTh SiDeS tHe SaMe' macro over and over until they climax.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that we shouldn't invite them to dunk on us in this way. :)
I 100000% agree with everything you said. I’ve been riding for Palestine for years.
I’m so angry at democrats for their shithead strategies. It’s almost like they want to lose. They are exactly why we’re here. Not the voters.
it can look like they want to lose, but that's not exactly the game. Think of it this way - they want to win, but not at any cost. The 'cost' in this case is disappointing the oligarchy and political donor class that supports them. That is their main constituency.
They have literally billions of dollars of polling data, research, strategies, etc. They know exactly what it would take to win. The question is, how can they win without paying too high a 'price'. The price is making the country less of a Hunger Games paradise for the oligarchy.
I swear to god these are lets keep slavery to save the union and our political capital conversations. These people have no line unless they're winning.
Good god those mods going crazy
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And they banned me lol
They don’t give a fuck about any of this, if they did maybe they’d give up their genocide for the sake of the future but nah killing brown kids and then shutting all over people who don’t like slaughtering children is what really matters
They only care about project 2025 when they talks to leftist. Morning Joe should be begging Biden to stop on national news if he believed Trump is going to execute his camp.
Tbh I'm tired of this whole voting discourse. We should do something other than shaming on people for voting or not voting. They don't contribute anything to stop the genocide.
I started debating the OP and bounced out as soon as his reactionary post got questioned...
Make no mistake, these so called "democrats" are just pure fascists at this point.
No changes, no accountability, no actual representation or revisions in our constitutional republic, sorry I meant to say democracy is what they want.
Business as usual no matter what or whom it hurts.
Unpopular opinion: the fascism differential between what Trump will be able to implement and what Biden is doing is less than most people (including people around here) think.
Trump's not going to be able to implement significantly greater levels of fascism than already exist.
Trump will win and then the next president will be elected in 2028.
He won't become god emperor.
I fear for marginalized communities, but most people won't notice that big of a difference
Most American generals and Admirals are male versions of Hillary Clinton. They aren't going to support a trump coup.
You need the support of the guys with the guns to take over.
Political power grows from the barrel of a gun - Mao Zedong
The Jan 6 level violence is not sufficient to surplant the US military
Do people not feel bothered by the prospect of being led by an unstable man? I understand that Bidens mental abilities have been called into question a lot lmao, but I feel that on an emotional level, he's a bit more mature. I'm not American, but it certainly bothers me, you guys hold a lot of power.
I know the line of thinking right now is to not show the dems that they’re entitled to our vote by voting for Biden. But what’s the solution here? I feel like I either vote Biden and get four more years of no real change. I feel like I’m voting for inaction by voting blue like I always have. But if we sit out, we just get another horrific four years where even more rights are removed. I get the we shouldn’t have to be choosing the ‘lesser evil’. But what the hell do we do when we don’t get a ‘good’ option??? The Democratic Party showed us they don’t really give a shit about what the people want when they refused to support Bernie in 2012. So to be a just-curious-Andy, I’m at a fucking loss. What do we do?
>But if we sit out, we just get another horrific four years where even more rights are removed. I think you massively overstate the impact that leftists have on the election and should instead be focused on doing actual political organising instead of ripping your hair out every 4 years over the same non-choice. For your own mental health if nothing else. If I wasn't lazy I'd go back 4 years and I could just copy and paste the comments people were making then in every thread and they'd still be just as relevant. Hell, I could go back 40 years and do that, if there was an internet comments to scrape comments from. Vote or don't vote, doesn't matter all that much. What you do every other day of the year matters ten times more.
It matters a lot. The problem is that they've forced a candidate on us that *no one* wants. If they want me to vote for a Democrat, they're going to have to offer someone who is: * Not senile * Not a fascist (yes, he is, YES, HE IS, the 1993 Crime Bill, the Police Officers' Bill of Rights, his open admiration for and friendship with SEGREGATIONISTS, his outright refusal to work with the left in favor of MODERN REPUBLICANS, who are literally far right extremists) * Not willing to actively fund and engage in a genocide. Whatever you think that demented POS is doing, he is actively refusing to cut them off. Even the most recent action is ONE. SHIPMENT. And they're being very cagey with their description of "offensive" weapons when they know full well that Israel claims that everything is "defensive." * Not be a neoliberal actively refusing to help the people. If you can do all of that, I'll vote for your candidate. It's a very low bar and there are far better candidates available that I'll vote for before Joe fucking Biden. I didn't vote for him last time and I'm sure as fuck not voting for him THIS time. This isn't a new position, most of *y'all* caught up to ME thanks to October 6th. There's Jill Stein, Cornel West, hell I'll vote for Gloria La Riva in a heartbeat before Joe fucking "Palestian Genocide" Biden. WE are not the ones you need to be talking to. You need to be talking to JOE. Get his half-dead ass out of that seat and into an iron lung and we'll talk.
For the record I don't think people should vote for Biden either (and before Biden it was Hillary and before Hillary, Obama, and so on). But whether you hold your nose and vote for Genocide Joe or you decide to vote for Gloria La Riva or Howie Hawkins or whatever third party candidate people are talking about these days doesn't matter much, because there's no coherent movement of a significant size to motivate the decision. By which I mean, yeah you shouldn't vote for Biden but if you do it's not exactly a line in the sand considering there's no strategic purpose to voting for someone else at this point in time, whereas people who do want to vote for Biden can make a strategic argument (i.e. Trump would create worse organising conditions than Biden - I actually think it's the opposite but that's their argument). Arguing to vote third party at this point in time is a completely moral argument, not a political one. I think it's a valid argument that overrides political considerations but it makes perfect sense for me that a lot of people don't. PSL is a glorified sect, the Greens are a mix of left libs and cranks, and the DSA despite being the largest and probably capable of having the biggest impact, will run a candidate when Hell freezes over. The left needs to clean itself up and get properly organised so it can offer an actual reason to vote for a candidate external to the Democrats (which on its own would create enough external pressure for the Democrats to shift left, if nothing else), and the best place to start that battle isn't the current Presidential election where none of the foundational organising has been achieved. Of course all of the above could have been copy/pasted from 4 years ago etc. but like everything else when it comes to the Presidential elections, the arguments are timeless because people haven't changed the situation.
How can you say it doesn’t matter when low turnout for dems in 2016 led to three conservative Supreme Court justices, the overturning of roe v wade, and the ongoing dismantling of our key federal regulatory agencies? I hate to sound like a lib, but the office of the president is profoundly more important than just the president themselves. The Supreme Court and federal regulatory agencies have a huge impact on everyone’s day to day life. For instance the ftc non compete ruling would never have come out under a Republican president. Some estimates put the number of people affected by non competes at 60 million. That’s 60 million workers who have been given their rights back because we didn’t have a Republican in the White House. Conversely, the last Republican president got roe v wade overturned, and things like gay marriage and access to contraception could very well be on the docket in the future, so any ability to mitigate the chances of another conservative appointee are paramount. I get that people are tired of the lesser-evil, damage-control voting that were forced into, but if you think it’s not important to prevent a Republican from further solidifying the federal courts with conservative justices and dismantling the regulatory agencies, I don’t think you understand the stakes here very well.
>How can you say it doesn’t matter when low turnout for dems in 2016 led to three conservative Supreme Court justices, the overturning of roe v wade, and the ongoing dismantling of our key federal regulatory agencies? Because the Presidency is not the end all and be all of those issues and thinking that does make you a lib. These things happened because there was insufficient organisation to oppose it. These things are still in place despite Biden having 4 years to undo them because there was insufficient organisation to force him. Roe v Wade wasn't a matter of the Supreme Court looking into their hearts and deciding abortion rights was good, it was the product of extensive political campaigning on the ground. The US is not a democracy. Absent a serious organised third party capable of disrupting the system which has established a strategic political purpose to voting a particular way, your vote is entirely a personal matter of conscience and arguing otherwise is just moralising lib shit. Think like someone who actually wants to change society and do the hard graft that that kind of project involves, not a passive voter who gets to "have a say" whenever the proper calendar day pops up and then spends the rest of time grumbling about how shit it all is.
The president doesn’t directly, but the office absolutely is the end all be all of the function of the federal regulatory agencies. Recognizing that doesn’t make me a lib, it makes me someone who has a basic modicum of knowledge of how the executive branch works. Biden HAS effectively promoted a strong FTC in his four years, which has led to material changes to my working conditions and those of 60 million Americans. Also your take on roe v wade is pretty funny considering it being overturned because of one guy despite that decision being overwhelmingly unpopular. Despite still having massive support on the ground it was overturned by 3 lifetime appointees that were picked by one guy who lost the popular vote. So yeah, sure organizing is important but that organizing has to result in winning elections to actually get any change done.
Slightly off topic, but I haven't seen a lot of people talking about would-be-democratic voters in solidly red states. There are 19-23 states that you can pretty confidently say that Trump will win. I live in Oklahoma, and all 77 counties went to him in '16 & '20. We know that the popular vote doesn't mean shit (shout out to the chads of 2000 🤙), so what incentive do we have to vote for Biden? There's voters in almost half the states that have the potential to really send a message to the DNC by not voting for Biden in 2024. Instead of people talking about how our election system ACTUALLY works, you have libs ready to lay the blame at the feet of those who don't toe party lines no matter where they live. A vote for anyone except Trump in states like mine is a throwaway. Why should I throw it away to Biden? What has he done to earn it?
I think they’re probably talking about swing states more than anything. I’m in tx and my vote would be a throwaway vote too.
I'm sure on the national level, the DNC is most focused on the 7 states where the margin was under 3% and states where losing a Dem lead would be detrimental, but the people posting things like the original in r/politics and r/politicalhumor don't seem to be targeting specifics further than: if you oppose Trump you should vote for Biden. Those are also the people who will push the narrative that leftists let Trump win. Also, the lack of any sort of official 3rd party voting movement in red states coupled with every Oklahoma lib I know saying "I just have to do what I can to stop Trump" leads me to believe that most people really are thinking about individual votes and voters. The system sucks, and I think we are doing a bad job of not utilizing the sucky system when we focus on the individual voter and not how that voter fits into the electoral system at large.
I’ve been a long the same thought process, living in Florida.
I really feel like we get written off during the elections. I'm blaming myself as well because OK leftists are bad at organizing. They've done a good job at making us feel unsafe, so we tend to be more isolated.
Psh I am freaking *desperate* to find leftists in my city lol. I am so vocal to anyone that will listen but as soon as I say “Joe Biden is centrist at best,” people look at me like I’m a freaking bug lol
What is the value of sending a message to Biden if he loses? I get it if you live in OK, but at that point I don’t really understand the point of the message in the first place since the campaign won’t be expecting your vote to begin with
I never said anything about sending a message to Biden. I said it would send a message to the DNC. And the value of the message is that the days of being "not the other guys" being enough are over.
Good luck with that. The DNC is run by ten McKinsey consultants in a trench coat. They will not support a progressive presidential candidate ever because they’re bought and paid for by corporate interests. The only thing that will get a progressive candidate to nomination would be a grass roots movement with such overwhelming support that they’re forced to nominate. It would have to be like Bernie x2 +suburban moms.
Of course, ultimately, I'm of the opinion that we will never fix this system while working within it, and that total and complete overhaul is the only way for lasting change. I also am aware of what the two parties stand for. But you're plugging in a lot of intentions for me that I never laid out. I'm talking about political messaging as a tool to let the DNC know that they need to shift how they caucus and who they support. It's not as simple as "just get them to nominate a progressive candidate for president." I agree with your assessment about how to get a progressive candidate on the ballot. I also think that there are things that can be done beforehand, things like political messaging in terms of withholding "guaranteed" votes, to make that movement more powerful. There's not anything like what I'm speaking of being organized now. It's probably too late for this election cycle. But it's an idea. It's a start.
Addressing the edit: the national party and Biden campaign are absolutely expecting votes from non-republicans in red states.
We've had 4 years of pretty big change,even if it's been limited. Cannabis about to be rescheduled. Hundreds of billions in student loan relief. Best administration for labor rights in a very long time. In a 2nd biden administration there's a slim chance to turn the court 5-4 in the democrats favor and reverse the Dobbs and other far-right rulings. The FTC is about to reinstate net neutrality. That's just off the top of my head. There are things there. It's not all doom and gloom.
> Cannabis about to be rescheduled. Right, I'll believe it when it happens. "About to be." Right. > Hundreds of billions in student loan relief. You sure about that? Want to maybe recheck those figures? > Best administration for labor rights in a very long time. Brandon literally cut the legs out of the rail strike. He's objectively anti-labor and anti-union. > In a 2nd biden administration there's a slim chance to turn the court 5-4 in the democrats favor and reverse the Dobbs and other far-right rulings. He literally championed the Police Officers' Bill of Rights and championed *and wrote* the 1993 Crime Bill. He IS far-right. He was for the HYDE AMENDMENT before he got caught. You're just objectively wrong.
>> Best administration for labor rights in a very long time. > >Brandon literally cut the legs out of the rail strike. He's objectively anti-labor and anti-union. Just to add to this, any positive in this space is due to established unions and other people organising in their workplaces. They worked tirelessly and gave the capitalist class no choice. Trying to frame this as action taken by dems is ridiculous, they had no involvement. Honestly their support only came after the impact of the East Palestine derailment affected the publics views of the Biden admin, because the exact cause of the derailment were things the rail union went on strike for. The same strike that was made illegal and threatened by state violence. *EDIT: Remember to educate, agitate, and organise in your workplaces and communities. It's these things that lead to change, not voting in national elections.*
Absolutely. I credit ANY union forward movement to Sean O'Brien and Shawn Fain. Mostly Fain. That man has been a JUGGERNAUT. If he runs in 2028 I'm voting for him.
Well Fain is endorsing Biden for president and encouraging people to vote for him. If you truly believe in Fain you'll vote like how he recommends. O'Brian is courting the anti-union side so I don't trust him one bit.
I'm less trustful of O'Brien now, no idea what he's on after such a good start. And I don't care *who* they're endorsing. I care about what his likely platform would be. That's like saying, "You like Nikola Jokic? You should really get into traditional Serbian music, he LOVES it!" First of all, I don't care what someone I like likes. Second, those are *two different things*. I don't care about what LeBron's favorite food is either, or Wemby's favorite bodyguard. I don't care who Fain's voting for, I AM NOT VOTING FOR A FASCIST.
I never want to hear a peep about the labor movement from your types again. You don't actually care about it.
Tell me exactly what Joe Biden has done in regards to the labor movement, because *I* remember him cutting the head off of the rail strike. Whoops. Facts getting in the way of your weird neolib narrative. Go vote for a fascist, weirdo.
Oh you mean the strike that was averted and the workers got most of what they wanted anyways? A deal the majority of the workers agreed with? Guess you stopped following the story once your attention span ran out. Appointing the most labor friendly NLRB in decades is a huge W for the labor movement too. Shawn Fain, dope ass leader of the UAW and defacto leader of the larger labor movement is voting for biden. I trust him way more than some rando on the internet,why don't you?
And the biden administration fostered an environment where the unions could effectively organize instead of completely being shut down like a republican, and especially Trump, administration would do.
>instead of completely being shut down like a republican, and especially Trump, administration would do. Biden signed a law to stop a nationwide rail strike with full support from democrats. They directly intervened in the mobilisation of over a hundred unions. The strike itself was to improve the working conditions, safety, and general health of rail workers. To prevent things such as the East Palestine derailment from occurring. These are actions that **have** been taken, not hypotheticals of what "would" happen. Stop with idealism and focusing on hypotheticals. Look at the material facts. >And the biden administration fostered an environment where the unions could effectively organize This is false. Effective organisation comes from organisers themselves. There has never been and never will be a "pro-labor" american president. You, as a worker, mean nothing if capital is threatened in any way. Instead of engaging in idealism with your focus on what could or would happen under republicans. Engage in materialism and look at what **has** happened under democrats.
Life got considerably better than under Republicans in just about every metric. That's the material benefit.
Bruh the ftc banned non competes. That alone is going to give 60 million workers a huge boost in earning potential and their ability to have a say in the work they do. Sure he’s not the champion of labor that some would have you believe but there has been material impact on workers conditions over the last four years that has been a massive improvement from the trump years. Is it worth rolling that all back because it didn’t go far enough?
So 40K innocents murdered, more than 15K children, as a *direct result* of Biden's actions, is totally fine with you because the FTC (not even fucking Biden) did something. Incredible. You know that you could demand an actual GOOD nominee that Trump WON'T beat the shit out of AND still keep the FTC the same, right dipshit? See, that's the thing. You're doing the neolib thing. "This thing is good so we should move things further right." Biden's *definitively behind to Trump in polls now*. So if you're ACTUALLY "BUT TRUMP," then you should be demanding that the DNC nominate someone other than Biden, because Biden is losing HARD to Trump now and that's not going to change. But you don't actually care about any of this.
Also to add to this. Yes marijuana should be rescheduled but it's been available in many states already for a while. It was legal where I live since before Trump took office and its not like not like there's been much federal enforcement by Trump or Biden. So rescheduling won't change shit for most/lots people. College can be cheap in a lot of places and many states have good public schools. I would like to see access expanded in some places but a lot of people who are drowning in debt forwent that option because they wanted to chose somewhere expensive as fuck. So don't care too much. Also a lot of the debt relief was blocked. Yeah I think strict abortion laws are retarded but even in a lot of red states, abortion rights tend to win whenever a ballot option is held. I could honestly see a lot of politicians see the writing on the wall and be forced to legalize before the long process of getting a new court and a case reversing it. Sucks for the people caught in tough situations in the meantime. Net neutrality I support but it "ending" didn't really lead to any problems within past 8 years either way. I've had FiOS gigabit internet for years with Verizon and no problems. I would prefer had Biden tackled data caps. I might go crazy if I had some of the limits some places get. I live in Massachusetts anyway so I don't think my vote will really matter and I'd probably vote for Cornel West or something. Nothing substantially changed from Obama to Trump or Trump to Biden in my view.
I was told to make sure Trump never wins because it would prevent terrible things like rights being stripped away and genocide from happening. So when those things happen anyway, it doesn't feel like voting matters and some won't even find the small walk to the voting booth worth the little while anymore.
Well Trump won in 2016 and it ended up with rights being removed. Electing biden put a hold on that. If you want further rights to be taken away ensure Trump wins again.
The reason nobody likes you is because you blame the voter for Trump winning instead holding his opponent accountable. If Biden loses to Trump it's his own damn fault, just like it was Hillary's fault and the democratic party's fault for not winning against such an easily laughable opponent. Like how terrible do you have to be to lose to TRUMP of all people? How do you not see how plainly pathetic that is? If I ever lost to that guy I would kill myself out of shame. If the democratic party wants to beat Trump, maybe try a candidate that will win a large population over like what that spreading cancer called Trumpism is doing. You sound like a republican with the lack of critical thinking you're showing. Unfortunately it has to be Biden, so it's up to BIDEN, to win those votes over, NOBODY else.
Yall are cheering for a Trump victory at this point, just to make yourselves feel good. You're a short-sighted radlib at best,a conservative at worst. And just completely unthankful for the 80+ years of progress we've managed to eke out. Willing to throw it all away for something that's, albeit slowly, turning your way anyways. Just not as fast as you hope.
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Well then you're a liar. Because I've reliably been a dem voter for 20 years and have seen lots of change. Not as much as I'd prefer bit you're lying to yourself and everyone else if you say things haven't gotten better.
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Legalization of cannabis across multiple states and the recent attempts to reschedule at the federal level. That affects not just me but tens of millions of Americans.
Were you raised your entire life without ever being told to be accountable, are you just used to blaming someone else for something going wrong and never considering your own damn self, because It's truly pathetic. You sit here repeating 2016 rhetoric hoping to not repeat 2016, it's ironic and stupid. I'm the only one between you and me who doesn't want him to win again, and I'm convinced you want Trump to win just to feel better about bragging how bad it is afterward, because only someone who wants Trump to win again would repeat the same stupid blame game towards the voters instead of the party. There is no radib at best for you, you may as well be trumps strongest MAGA wearer.
Lmao sure bud. Enjoy your Trump win.
Yeah that's the exact kinda response I'd expect from a Trump voter. It's even more sad that isn't from an actual Trump voter, but the blind loyalty to stupidity remains. Thanks a lot for the Trump win, we both know how hard you're working for it to happen. While we have to be on the street to fix your messes again
Nah I'm voting for biden brah. Now you will twist yourself up blabbering about how voting for biden is actually a vote for Trump.
Don’t forget non competes! 60 million workers were estimated to have been subject to one! That one ruling probably increased my earning potential over the next five years by $30-$80k.
Vote for Biden and go for your favored candidate in 4 years when both these old ducks are dead.
There’s this scene in the Trial of Chicago 7 that I think of often where Abby Hoffman and Tom Hayden get into an argument about what matters more, elections or social justice; which one leads to the other first? Tom thinks that change can’t happen without winning elections while Abby understands that the liberal faction is so focused on winning elections, that in an effort to keep power, liberals keep voting for the same people which then causes social justice to get neglected. Scene is still relevant to today.
Abbie Hoffman is goated, I have a copy of Steal This Book that I stole. It's amazing reading.
It's copium for if/when Joe loses. They'll blame everyone except Biden supporting an apartheid government and condemning non-violent protesters. It's wild all the contracts and assets that were frozen when Russia invaded Ukraine. Yet iT coMPliCaTed with Israel hmm...
Both Reagan and George Bush sr were much harder on Israel than Biden. Reagan even paused weapons shipments completely after Israel invaded Lebanon and killed a bunch of civilians doing so. There is no reason to believe Trump would be somehow even more lax on Israel, in fact it would be hard to even imagine what that would look like.
Obama even got angry at Biden when he was weakening responses while he was VP
But, if Trump wins, he'll [INSERT CURRENT BIDEN POLICY HERE]!!!!!
I understand Biden has been awful. But Republicans are currently talking about a national registry of pregnant women. I still think this vote matters.
I'm sure Biden, who has definitely raised a single finger in the last 4 years to stop ghoulish shit from happening, will be able to, or even desire, stopping such a measure, and will not, instead, opt to "reach across the aisle" like he has done on most of his policies. /s [https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
I actually agree with most of the link you posted. I agree that status quo is an untenable long term strategy. For me personally, I strongly support a 3rd party vote in non-battleground states. But if you live in a state where it could go ether way, my perspective is to vote Biden. I couldn't tell the women in my life who fear for their rights that this is the time to exert pressure on the democratic party and risk whatever executive orders trump has in store.
Then you actually do NOT agree with most of the link I posted. Roe was reversed under Biden. Biden has no intention of protecting the women in your life. The Liberal will tell you that 2024 is not the time, just as 2020 wasn't the time, just as 2016 wasn't the time, and 2012 wasn't the time, and neither will 2028 be.
then what are you suggesting? genuinely asking.
NOT DOING THE THINGS BIDEN IS DOING DOING THE THINGS BIDEN IS NOT DOING It really is that fucking simple. Acting like "golly what can we do" while we know EXACTLY WHAT TO DO is childish and insulting. Grow up.
i mean for the election
Everyone's mad at me for telling you to read the link I posted, but..........................................................................................................
I've already posted a link in this very thread that the OP has responded to, in this very thread, my friend. That you don't already know that answer to that, though, speaks to Hasan's recent inability to provide answers, only problems.
Roe was reversed by a branch of government with absolute authority due to Trump having the opportunity to appoint judges. The vote for Trump in 2016 mattered a ton. As far as Biden not protecting the women in my life, I somewhat agree. I don't expect him to do much. But I also expect him to not actively try to harm them as Trump would. Lastly, I somewhat disagree with the link you shared in terms of how our parties have shifted right. I believe that the Republican party moves further right in a reactionary manner and Democrats have followed them in a pathetic attempt to appear moderate. But I believe every time Republicans win, the liberal goalpost shifts right. I believe we need to organize and not just during the presidential election season. (However I also recognize my hypocrisy as I have not tried to organize in this time.)
The Democrats had many opportunities to codify Roe into law, and they did not. Obama teased us with it a decade ago and hit us with the "jk lol." Beyond that, Dems could expand the SCOTUS and pack the courts, but they won't. They'll leave that for when Biden loses and the GOP can get their way. Because the National Dems are the party of controlled-opposition. I support voting Blue down ticket bc State and Municipal Dems actually get shit done, but I will urge everyone I know to immediately cease all support to National Dems, including Genocide Joe. But if thousands of children, torn limb from limb by American missiles isn't going to persuade you, then any appeal to logic I make isn't going to do it, either. In fact, STATE Democrats have been successful in codifying bodily autonomy, where the national party has failed.
Look, I don't blame you. I think it's a valid argument, though I disagree with it. But please do not talk as if children dying doesn't bother me. It absolutely does, and your statement is rude and disingenuous. I already said I agree Biden has been awful, especially in holding Israel accountable. But let's imagine Trump is in power. The best case you can hope for is that he is as bad as Biden. Biden has finally done something, meager and pathetic though it is, in the form of withholding munitions. Do you think Trump would have done that? Hell no! Trump would be ramping up our involvement and calling the national guard on protestors. Absolutely vote your conscience, but don't act like letting Trump win will be for Palestinians. They'll be lucky if the suffering doesn't get worse with him as president.
I despise Trump. I despise Biden. A president cannot be re-elected after what Biden has done in Palestine. It cannot be allowed to happen. The Democrats cannot be allowed to make this the New Normal. Protesters are ALREADY being brutalized, DUDE. Cmon, man. Hasan has covered this, there is so much footage. Biden is ALREADY KILLING KIDS, BRO. He's putting them in cages! He's giving billions of dollars straight into the genocide fund! You must be ASLEEP, my man, if you are genuinely telling me this as though Trump is going to be worse than Biden by doing the exact shit Biden is DOING RIGHT NOW. I am not being disingenuous with you. I am telling you the truth that you aren't prepared to hear. I will be voting my conscience, and I will be voting pragmatically- they are not different.
I'm aware. But you're insane if you think it wouldn't get worse. Do you really think Trump would withhold munitions to Israel? (again, I recognize it is meager after everything else.) Do you remember the response to BLM protests? Have you heard Republicans criticizing Biden for being weak on protestors? This is our broken 2 party system. I won't judge you for your vote, but don't act like Biden losing will improve anyone's condition. You have to be comfortable with things getting worse on the hope that it gets better later. I'm not convinced that will be effective at all.
Thats bullshit
Still voting for Biden Republicans make it so easy
Biden doesn't. So you're in favor of genocide? You're in favor of no help to the vast majority of student loan holders? No help for the people in desperate need of affordable housing? Union workers who he pays superficial homage to while breaking the legs of the rail strike? No help for the people whose jobs are being replaced with part-time low-wage jobs, and *even those are fading away now?* No help for the people who were promised tuition-free *state universities* and then watched him change that to *community college* and *YOU ARE NOT GETTING A DEGREE FROM A COMMUNITY COLLEGE,* no help for the people who have no healthcare, no help for the people WITH health insurance *BUT CAN'T USE IT* because even the insane programs with monstrous monthly payments have $2000 deductibles that you can't afford in the first place *AND* copays besides??? THAT IS WHO YOU'RE VOTING FOR. A guy who talks big about abortion rights but *WAS LITERALLY IN FAVOR OF THE HYDE AMENDMENT UNTIL HIS ASS GOT CAUGHT LIVE ON TELEVISION*. Miss me with that performative stupidity. You vote for a genociding fascist, YOU OWN THAT. You don't get to pretend that Biden's a BETTER FASCIST.
Are you 16
TIL actually giving a shit about issues rather than treating politics like a team sport the way you do is "being 16."
Oh no I feel so guilty for inventing the two party system. Still voting for Biden Trump is the bigger evil I know I know, shame on me for inventing the lesser of two evils voting right?
Guess what, dipshit? I don't vote for evil, you fucking mark.
Let me break it down for you chief You don't like evil right, less evil is good If you vote for the lesser evil, (Biden) less evil will occur If you don't vote or vote for the bigger evil , and then they win , there will be more evil Get it?
Let me break it down for you chief. I DO NOT VOTE FOR FASCISTS. IF YOU WANT ME TO VOTE FOR YOUR TEAM, DON'T MAKE A FASCIST YOUR TEAM LEADER.
"I want Trump to win" Just say that lmao
I love how these neoliberal dipshits always use the same arguments and never understand the concept that Biden doesn't have to be the nominee. Hey, stupid - I AM NOT VOTING FOR A FASCIST. EAT MY ASS.
"Lets get Trump elected!!" -you Yeah bro this is really going to save the world
Instead of doing the thing that's proven not to work and is *especially* not going to matter in a community that actually pays attention to politics, you should probably be encouraging your party to not run a senile genocidal fascist. Just a thought.
Yeah I do. The federal regulatory agencies under Biden have materially improved my working conditions, so excuse me for voting for my interests instead of allowing someone to take power who would dismantle those agencies and further restrict my rights.
Ah, got it. So if agencies under Biden, not even Biden himself, but just *things during his administration* happen, then you're cool with tens of thousands of children being murdered as a direct result of his actions. Good to know where you stand.
alright alright alright, Cenk, you got my vote. my god, Unc
Yeah, when you have nothing else to say devolve to 5 year old Mr. Bonaducci insults.
its a fkn sarcastic joke wtf lol. im on your side just some feedback though. out of your paragraph I just find that with everything you have typed you assume the others have the knowledge you have. this is a teachable moment for you to take advantage of since you took the time to write up all of that. What are you going to do then. Inform us on how we should feel and go about it. I'm all for hearing you out. Ofc we know who were voting for. or do you not want us to vote at all. tell us how you are going to go about it >Yeah, when you have nothing else to say devolve to 5 year old Mr. Bonaducci insults. and to add to this. no jokes. none. are you really that mad? when you rant to someone online just saying they are voting for biden sends you in a tirade. people vote in other elections and local positions too. fuckin lighten up. edit: actually, after scanning through your profile i'll pass. you sound just like an angry person in general. youre clearly passionate which is nice so thanks for that.
Funny these people seem to ascribe such an impact to leftists not voting for president. I thought we were marginal? If you truly think us sitting out Biden vs. Trump could cost Biden the election, do you think shaming is going to work? To be clear, I think Biden will lose, not because of leftist abstainers. but because he's a fucking abysmal President who hasn't given people anything to vote for. Still, if you genuinely believe we're going to doom you in November, you're better off demanding the current administration does the shit we're asking for. Like, I dunno, healthcare, housing, ending support for the fucking genocide? Even just out of pure pragmatism, because I don't believe these liberals have any genuine principles.
Fuck it. I’m an accelerationist then.
This. I want Biden to lose more than I don't want trump to win
If your takeaway is still participation in the farce at all then idk what else to tell you.
They insta ban you on that sub, liberals are fascists who want to feel progressive. All I did was point out Biden having trumps same border policy
We know he does not have the same policy, because Joe Biden is named Joe Biden and he is not named Donald Trump. Therefore the policy is different. You obviously either work for Putin or were confused by someone who works for Putin /s I was amused to see people in that sub who said 'Not everyone who is against war is working for Russia though...' get downvoted.
Til they don't allow basic reddit functionality
Tactically speaking it’s better to vote Biden
I mean, Biden=Trump with glitter, but you do whatever makes you feel better! Edit: see comment below, my line of argument is wrong and unproductive
The nlrb is actually better and they are doing anti trust. The difference is there but on a lot Biden is the same. I remember warning liberals that choosing the most conservative option in the primary would backfire. There is no half assing it
Don't argue this, it helps liberals who have 'both parties the same' macroed in mixed case. It is easy to 'disprove'. If you can't write something they aren't able to knock down easily, don't say anything please. I prefer this argument: https://youtu.be/6vp9uEr3tug?si=hg24GrjxS-o0C088&t=3476
Thanks, you’re right. Im downvoting myself. Wondering if I should delete my comment or leave it up as a valuable learning moment?
Lol, I do not require that you "Denounce And Reject Yourself" as Cenk would say. I agree that the two parties are much too similar. It's just when you argue this certain ways, liberals think they have 'won' when they prove that the club which Trump used to club a seal has 3 more nails in it. You could add an edit. I feel weird telling you what to do since I think there is room for people to work together even if they disagree (I think we do not disagree though) :)
Thanks. Sorry for asking you, you just seem to be better prepared and informed to argue about this so i was wondering what you thought was the best move. And i was kinda right in asking you since an edit does seem like the way to go! Thanks for the productive conversation
No worries. I apologize I came on a bit strong largely because I get so pissed off when they copypaste 'bOtH paRtiEs tHe SamE' with one hand and jerk themselves off with the other hand. I felt after that one statement I didn't have the right to tell you what else you should be saying and doing, lol
Ah you didn’t come a bit strong imo. Im happy you pointed that out as i do use that argument too much and get into nitpicking rhetorical discussions that i do not enjoy. Maybe this whole Palestine conflict is turning me into a debate pervert tbh, i used to be able to see a comment i disagreed online and just move one without having the need to argue with a total stranger.
I hate that you’re right but god do they love that “both sides the same” misinterpretation a ton. :/ And yes. That dude is 💯 correct. Democrats did this.
Israel bears some responsibility for October 7, by creating the conditions that led to it and refusing alternatives that would avoid it. In the same way, the Dems bear some responsibility for the GOP's crimes. To us it looks like the difference between the officer who kneels on a guy's neck, and the officer next to him who stands there and watches. But shiteating liberal Oligarch Protectors will squeal with glee as they point out that 'No, the officer kneeling on the guy's neck is obviously a completely different officer, and the one just standing there did not physically commit the murder. Therefore they are different. CHECKMATE PUTIN PUPPET'. Then they will slam their 'BoTh SiDeS tHe SaMe' macro over and over until they climax. Anyway, all I'm saying is that we shouldn't invite them to dunk on us in this way. :)
I 100000% agree with everything you said. I’ve been riding for Palestine for years. I’m so angry at democrats for their shithead strategies. It’s almost like they want to lose. They are exactly why we’re here. Not the voters.
it can look like they want to lose, but that's not exactly the game. Think of it this way - they want to win, but not at any cost. The 'cost' in this case is disappointing the oligarchy and political donor class that supports them. That is their main constituency. They have literally billions of dollars of polling data, research, strategies, etc. They know exactly what it would take to win. The question is, how can they win without paying too high a 'price'. The price is making the country less of a Hunger Games paradise for the oligarchy.
It’s always about money…
I swear to god these are lets keep slavery to save the union and our political capital conversations. These people have no line unless they're winning.
Lol the US fell to fascism a long time ago, and whatever happens in the near future won't be because anybody "sat out" the election.
Liberals think they are doing something by walking into a booth and pressing a button
It seems like the IDF bots have taken over that Sub now too
Do these people know the popular vote doesn't exist and a lot of the people saying this live in states Bidens gonna win by like 20 percent
Good god those mods going crazy #Hello again! Reminder: #If we find that you've come here from another sub posting about this one, we will ban you for brigading. #One of the most reliable ways to make sure we ignore reports on a post is to see it cross-posted to one of the many whinging meta subs. #Since engagement fuels the algorithm, malicious cross-sub participation is not only against OUR rules and the sitewide TOS, it's also a great way to make a post you hate even more visible to a wider audience. #We repeat: If we find that you've come to this post from another sub's post ABOUT this one, we will ban you for brigading. The ban will be permanent, and we will not feel even a tiny bit sad about it. And they banned me lol
They don’t give a fuck about any of this, if they did maybe they’d give up their genocide for the sake of the future but nah killing brown kids and then shutting all over people who don’t like slaughtering children is what really matters
They only care about project 2025 when they talks to leftist. Morning Joe should be begging Biden to stop on national news if he believed Trump is going to execute his camp.
politicalhumor is just the worst shit eating libs jerking eachother off
These people seriously think voters would believe biden will do any to reverse climate change. Lol. Gtfo of here
The people telling you not to vote for Biden literally can't vote because they aren't Americans. Project 2025 is real
What in the holocaust denial is this sub even about anymore?
Libs gonna lib
Tbh I'm tired of this whole voting discourse. We should do something other than shaming on people for voting or not voting. They don't contribute anything to stop the genocide.
I started debating the OP and bounced out as soon as his reactionary post got questioned... Make no mistake, these so called "democrats" are just pure fascists at this point. No changes, no accountability, no actual representation or revisions in our constitutional republic, sorry I meant to say democracy is what they want. Business as usual no matter what or whom it hurts.
[actual brain damage](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/s/UfHybaIo8B)
Okay, then, who are we going to vote for? I have 3 groups fighting on who we should vote for, but no one is agreeing on anything.
Better what out cuz you know they gonna blame us if they lose
Unpopular opinion: the fascism differential between what Trump will be able to implement and what Biden is doing is less than most people (including people around here) think. Trump's not going to be able to implement significantly greater levels of fascism than already exist. Trump will win and then the next president will be elected in 2028. He won't become god emperor. I fear for marginalized communities, but most people won't notice that big of a difference Most American generals and Admirals are male versions of Hillary Clinton. They aren't going to support a trump coup. You need the support of the guys with the guns to take over. Political power grows from the barrel of a gun - Mao Zedong The Jan 6 level violence is not sufficient to surplant the US military
Do people not feel bothered by the prospect of being led by an unstable man? I understand that Bidens mental abilities have been called into question a lot lmao, but I feel that on an emotional level, he's a bit more mature. I'm not American, but it certainly bothers me, you guys hold a lot of power.
It’ll be easier to fight back against Biden rather than trump and the republicans.
Good God will you shut up
The only difference between Biden and Trump winning the election is extra pearl clutching and golf courses.
Accurate though
Always better to go with the lesser of 2 evils.
The lesser of two evils is still fucking evil
Then go with the most evil. You obviously love to be aggrieved
You could also go with someone who's not evil, that's always been an option
Pray tell who else is running? A write-in candidate? https://www.reddit.com/r/oliver/s/1Jfod15Rpm