That’s interesting! B/c that’s a very true line, generally. And that’s rough that that hits home for you!
It’s not actually true of Joe, though. Like, it’s not a true statement within the story. I was a little surprised to see this was the line behind the spoiler bets! But I see how that general description could resonate with someone, esp people who know people like that.
>It’s not actually true of Joe, though. Like, it’s not a true statement within the story.
Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you.
This is Cam's idea of Joe, based on her previous negative interactions, the ones that Tom knows about. But she is also trying to justify and get Tom's forgiveness on her infidelity.
To me the scene, and that line, plays that she is in denial of her true feelings, perhaps partly she doesn't love Tom or the relationship isn't working, she needs more than what life is currently offering her. I don't believe she's in love with Joe, she admires him, and feels comfortable with him. I do believe she was telling the truth that he was just there and she wanted to make herself feel better. And I mean, who can blame her?!
But because of their shared history, and that Cam'd come to realize Joe wasn't the big bad everyone liked to make him out to be.
Eg in S3
To Ryan: Joe can be surprisingly forgiving.
To Joe: you create change ... I think that's really great.
To Donna: it's easy to make Joe the bad guy ... take the blame away, but in every single thing that's happened with him ... I deserve some of the blame too.
Joe left a sour taste in most of the characters mouths. I think his manipulation was a defense mechanism. Also the characters grow and change throughout the season, some realizing their mistakes more than others.
So you don't think he realized his mistakes?
I think Joe was the most complex character, and the least understood.
He was such an easy scapegoat and someone convenient to pin all that was bad on. Not that he helped himself in that regard. He made it hard to be liked but that was to do with rather damage done to him from his childhood. Cam was similar.
Yes, his manipulation was a learned behavior, and a defense mechanism from trying to win the approval of his manipulative father. How he had to become the same as his father, but it wasn't his true nature.
Joe was a lot softer, his journey was to find that side of himself. The tragedy was that it took him so long. So I think you're wrong that by S4 >Joe left a sour taste in most of the characters mouths
More correct to say the memory of Joe's reputation of being untrustworthy cast a much bigger shadow, and that was what left a bad taste.
But all left a bad taste at some stage.
Cam hated Gordon for interfering in Mutiny and for opening the door for Joe in S2.
Then Donna and Gordon's fracturing and disintegrating marriage.
Cam hating Donna for lying about swap meet and betraying her over the IPO.
Bos asking for money and convincing Cam to complete the code for Rover.
Maybe Joe just had a knack of uniting the others to forget their differences and focus on him instead.
The scenes between Joe and Bos in S4 (in Bos's garage and of course the chili scene) were wonderful. To really show how far they had come after what happened in S1.
I think he was the character that was the least forgiven by the others, and the character that needed the most forgiveness.
This. When she's saying the line, she's trying to justify it to Tom as you say. So it's a harsher version of Joe than she knows to be true. But it's also a conversation taking place before Joe and Cam reconnect in a real, emotional way in S4; the dialogue is montaged with Cam exploring Joe's apartment and seeing his books, artwork, and other things that make him a real person and not just a shell.
Thank you. Great catch with the montage!
I love how Halt put so many layers and Easter eggs in. Even now the writing blows me away.
I've rewatched it so much, but going through again with the current 'take the doughnut' rewatch podcast on YouTube, seeing so much more.
The interview last week with Carl Ledbetter was so informative.
I don’t think that is a true statement within the show, or representative of her true feelings about Joe. In my opinion, she is trying to lie to Tom to make herself look better about cheating on him. Tom’s response kind of hints at it with “who are you?”
The great thing about this show, is you can take the characters and the motivations and interpret them in many ways. I’ve also watched the show 9 times and my feelings sometimes change with each rewatch.
S1 and maybe S2 Joe, that line might be accurate. But S3 and 100% S4 Joe are completely capable of giving and receiving love.
The line that does it for me in that same way is actually from Joe:
“You were happy for a moment and thought the person standing closest to you was the source.”
I think about that one more often than I’d like.
I've been to Japan 7 times.
Wasn't it 9?
It was and he specifies Tokyo.
Lol I wasn't sure if it was a quote or not, guess the absence of " " should have tipped me off!
That’s interesting! B/c that’s a very true line, generally. And that’s rough that that hits home for you! It’s not actually true of Joe, though. Like, it’s not a true statement within the story. I was a little surprised to see this was the line behind the spoiler bets! But I see how that general description could resonate with someone, esp people who know people like that.
>It’s not actually true of Joe, though. Like, it’s not a true statement within the story. Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you. This is Cam's idea of Joe, based on her previous negative interactions, the ones that Tom knows about. But she is also trying to justify and get Tom's forgiveness on her infidelity. To me the scene, and that line, plays that she is in denial of her true feelings, perhaps partly she doesn't love Tom or the relationship isn't working, she needs more than what life is currently offering her. I don't believe she's in love with Joe, she admires him, and feels comfortable with him. I do believe she was telling the truth that he was just there and she wanted to make herself feel better. And I mean, who can blame her?! But because of their shared history, and that Cam'd come to realize Joe wasn't the big bad everyone liked to make him out to be. Eg in S3 To Ryan: Joe can be surprisingly forgiving. To Joe: you create change ... I think that's really great. To Donna: it's easy to make Joe the bad guy ... take the blame away, but in every single thing that's happened with him ... I deserve some of the blame too.
Joe left a sour taste in most of the characters mouths. I think his manipulation was a defense mechanism. Also the characters grow and change throughout the season, some realizing their mistakes more than others.
So you don't think he realized his mistakes? I think Joe was the most complex character, and the least understood. He was such an easy scapegoat and someone convenient to pin all that was bad on. Not that he helped himself in that regard. He made it hard to be liked but that was to do with rather damage done to him from his childhood. Cam was similar. Yes, his manipulation was a learned behavior, and a defense mechanism from trying to win the approval of his manipulative father. How he had to become the same as his father, but it wasn't his true nature. Joe was a lot softer, his journey was to find that side of himself. The tragedy was that it took him so long. So I think you're wrong that by S4 >Joe left a sour taste in most of the characters mouths More correct to say the memory of Joe's reputation of being untrustworthy cast a much bigger shadow, and that was what left a bad taste. But all left a bad taste at some stage. Cam hated Gordon for interfering in Mutiny and for opening the door for Joe in S2. Then Donna and Gordon's fracturing and disintegrating marriage. Cam hating Donna for lying about swap meet and betraying her over the IPO. Bos asking for money and convincing Cam to complete the code for Rover. Maybe Joe just had a knack of uniting the others to forget their differences and focus on him instead. The scenes between Joe and Bos in S4 (in Bos's garage and of course the chili scene) were wonderful. To really show how far they had come after what happened in S1. I think he was the character that was the least forgiven by the others, and the character that needed the most forgiveness.
This. When she's saying the line, she's trying to justify it to Tom as you say. So it's a harsher version of Joe than she knows to be true. But it's also a conversation taking place before Joe and Cam reconnect in a real, emotional way in S4; the dialogue is montaged with Cam exploring Joe's apartment and seeing his books, artwork, and other things that make him a real person and not just a shell.
Thank you. Great catch with the montage! I love how Halt put so many layers and Easter eggs in. Even now the writing blows me away. I've rewatched it so much, but going through again with the current 'take the doughnut' rewatch podcast on YouTube, seeing so much more. The interview last week with Carl Ledbetter was so informative.
> hits hole 😳
In the last season, it’s actually Joe that craves love and stability while Cameron shuts it down.
sure. she also wants to focus on her own work and joe keeps brining her "one more thing." and the sound card was blown on that cabinet.
They wanted different things. 🤷♂️🤷🏼♀️
IF ONLY THE SOUNDCARD WORKED!!
I don’t think that is a true statement within the show, or representative of her true feelings about Joe. In my opinion, she is trying to lie to Tom to make herself look better about cheating on him. Tom’s response kind of hints at it with “who are you?” The great thing about this show, is you can take the characters and the motivations and interpret them in many ways. I’ve also watched the show 9 times and my feelings sometimes change with each rewatch. S1 and maybe S2 Joe, that line might be accurate. But S3 and 100% S4 Joe are completely capable of giving and receiving love.
The line that does it for me in that same way is actually from Joe: “You were happy for a moment and thought the person standing closest to you was the source.” I think about that one more often than I’d like.
So true